The Charlie Kirk Show - Charlie vs. The University of Cambridge

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

They have slick accents — but do they actually have brains? Charlie flew across the Atlantic Ocean to Britain so he could debate the students at Cambridge University. But are the kids at the UK's #2 school any better than kids in the U.S.? Charlie fields questions on abortion, the Bible, Trump, marriages and broken homes, and a lot more in a epic showdown that is not to be missed.   Watch every episode ad-free on members.charliekirk.com!   Get new merch at charliekirkstore.com! Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio. This is my conversation at Cambridge University. I thought it did pretty well, to be perfectly honest. It was an incredibly difficult environment. I walk in, no applause, just stares and glares from the Cambridge intelligentsia. 400 people against me and a professor. I talked to the president of Cambridge, who didn't even do the niceties, just went straight into trying to brutalize me publicly. I kept my calm. I kept my

cool. I felt pretty good about the points I made. There are some points I probably could have made better. But understand, it was literally kind of like a Moscow show trial, where you're standing there for an hour and a half, and they're throwing a debaterater after debater and they're applauding at the dumbest stuff. So I just have to, I have to just warn you before you listen to this podcast, this one Indian British guy comes up and he says, I took my mom to the pub and everyone starts applauding. I mean,

it was so overwhelming against me. That's why I kind of love it because we need to be unafraid to go into those environments. We need to be unafraid to go into those environments. We need to be unafraid to go into the lines. Then we need to be unafraid to go into the place where we're not always going to be applauded. We're not always going to be celebrated. We're not always going to be welcomed with open arms. No, that's not what, what free speech is all about is sometimes going into the greatest place of

opposition. And so I was thankful to do it. There was a lot of insults that they throw at me. There was a lot of, let's say, clever little remarks. It was far from a debate. It was more just kind of like a verbal melee, and I think you will agree, and I would love your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com, that the students of Cambridge,

they could have done a lot better. They could have been far more sophisticated, more polite, but they decided to take the gloves off and we got into the arena. And of course, when I made a good point, it was met with silence. And when they met a mediocre point, it was met with roaring applause as if they split the atom. Hilariously, they actually split the atom at Cambridge. Make sure you guys subscribe to our podcast and enjoy this lively, controversial, viral fight at Cambridge University. Buckle up, everybody.

Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country.

He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company across the country. That is noblegoldinvestments.com. It's where I buy all of my gold. Go to noblegoldinvestments.com. Hi, everyone, and thank you for joining us tonight. Our speaker tonight is Charlie Kirk, a prominent conservative commentator. He's founder and CEO of Turning Point USA, which

has a presence on over 3,000 high school and college campuses. It is the largest and fastest growing youth activist organization in USA, and he's written four books. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Great to be here. Brilliant. So I'll start with some questions from me, and then we're going to move to the questions from the audience, from the people who've submitted them, and we'll be asking them at the dispatch box. My first question is about Turning Point USA's Professor Watch List. Its mission is described as exposing college professors who discriminate against conservative students

and advance leftist propaganda in the classroom, with examples including feminism, abortion and socialism. How would you respond to critics, such as PEN America, who see it as supporting what it claims to deride, which is the intimidation and ostracization of those who express controversial views on campus? Well, we're getting right into it, aren't we? Thank you. So, yeah, just by background, Turning Point USA has now grown to be the largest campus conservative organization in the country. I come from a view that conservatism is

widely underrepresented in American campuses. And by conservatism, I literally mean the defense of Western values, free markets, rule of law, individual initiative, entrepreneurship, the constitution, so on and so forth. And in American college campuses in particular, and I don't know, I'm guessing that this campus is, I don't even want to guess. We'll see what happens when we have dialogue. But I do know that there are some great professors that do teach the Western canon, which is far too missing from American universities, is that American college campuses have become a place where they strive to have everyone look different but think the same. And in America, university and college tuition is through the roof,

and students and parents have a moral obligation to know who is teaching their kids. And for these professors that have such a major objection for being on our professor watch list, if they don't say obscene things, then they will not end up on our watch list. I'm talking about professors that were excited about what happened on October 7th. I'm sorry, if you're excited about what happened on October 7th, then you deserve to be on a professor watch list and people should know all about you. And if people want to fire you as a consequence of that, or if people don't want to go to that school as a consequence of that, then so be it. And so what was the criticism exactly?

It was that the watch list supports what it claims to deride, which is the intimidation and ostracization. Sorry, thank you. If the publicizing of certain ideas is intimidation, then I think that's just laughable. It is using our own free speech to expose professors who we believe are making America a worse country. And in fact, I believe in America, higher education has largely posed a threat to Western values. And I think we need more students and more parents to realize the moral rot that universities have become in the Western world. So Turning Point Academy mentions the importance of promoting intellectual growth. How would you respond to critics that such an education system stifles intellectual growth

through establishing a fixed set of values, for example, regarding God, life beginning at conception, and two genders, rather than promoting intellectual diversity? Sure. I mean, at some point, you're going to have to get to a truth claim. So even to say that you want intellectual diversity means that you think intellectual diversity matters, but by what standard? So you have to actually, at some point, say that something is good. So if someone says, well, the criticism that you're going to tell a kid that something is good, something else, you should have intellectual diversity. Okay, why? By what standard?

By what book? By what scholar? By what author? By what worldview? We believe as an organization that the West is the best for many reasons. In particular, my own personal views. I'm a Christian. I'm not ashamed of it.

And Christianity brought to the world things that we all take for granted tom holland who actually was educated here and is one of the great classicists and taught himself ancient greek he wrote in his book dominion that even if you hate christianity your critique of christianity is actually using christianity itself and so this idea of intellectual diversity, I totally support that. And I think that students should read different books and should read different authors. At some point though, the purpose of education is not to have an endless buffet line for students to sample every bad idea in the world. It's to point them to the good, the true, and the beautiful. And I think we've lost what the purpose education is. Education in Latin literally means to lead forth. To lead

forth out of the cave was the original analogy. And so at Turning Point Academy, we take the biblical idea to train a child up in the ways in which they will go, and we make no apologies for instituting a belief that believing in God is better than secularism, the defense of universal human equality is good for all humanity, amongst many other things that you articulated. So how would you reconcile the importance of freedom which is listed as turning point usa's mission on your website with the restrictions on bodily autonomy which you support including

abortion trans affirming health care and birth control and how would you respond to criticism of your limited view of freedom sure so first of all birth control i don't have that strong of views of so i mean except the fact that i've criticized how actually young people that take young women that take hormonal birth control might have side effects that are not always disclosed them as far as abortion and trans affirming care i'll get in that in a second but i find it laughable not from you of course but some of the people that are always very critical of charlie why don't you just believe in bodily autonomy? I'm sorry, didn't you just mandate a vaccine for the last couple of years? I couldn't visit your country for two years because I didn't take a vaccine.

So it's my body, my choice unless it's – so it's my body, my choice if it's another human being in the womb, but it's not my body, my choice if I want to take a vaccine. That was neither safe nor effective. And we all must be very honest about the fact that the public health experts of both of our countries never apologized for the fact that they made you take a vaccine that, by the way, has a lot of side effects for a lot of people in this room. And no one wants to say that. As a side note, though, all the bodily autonomy people, and you guys can laugh all you want. It's fine. All the bodily autonomy people suddenly got really silent when we decided to say we're going to control your body and control the movement of what you can do. You can't go to the pub. You can't go to the local gathering of friends.

You can't go to university. You can't even go into the UK if you don't have a card. So that's a fun contradiction for me. At the same time, there's a difference between freedom or liberty and license. Liberty is the pursuit of things that allow human beings to flourish at its highest possible potential. License is not those things. So on the first thing, you do not have a ability, and I'm sure there will be a question about this, under any agreed upon Western morality, which is derived from a Christian construct, to murder another human being. You do not have that freedom. And so

we believe, obviously, because we believe in very basic biology and science that life begins at conception and therefore that life deserves universal human rights as derided as applied equally under our laws as far as trans affirming care as far as if you want to do something over the age of 18 knock yourself out you guys actually have been better than our country on this you have the cast report that our country has lost its mind where theAST report itself issued an opinion based on my limited but somewhat understanding of it that trans-affirming care for children is highly questionable at best. And so we all can agree that students that are not, or young people that are not yet of age or mature age of 18, of course we limit certain freedoms or licenses or liberties for seven to 15 year olds in my country they can't own guns till they're 18 in my country they can't even drink till they're 21 in my country you you they can't vote until they're 18 in america and so until someone is of age you're going to limit that and so i believe that we should all agree that young people in

particular 15 16 17 there should be a prohibition that you should not be able to cut off your breasts or go under life-altering, irreversible, gender-affirming care just because you might be going through a temporary phase. So you spoke about vaccines, the COVID-19 vaccine. How would you respond to accusations about you misusing your platform and purporting misinformation during the COVID-19 pandemic, including speaking against the COVID vaccine and speculating about deaths caused by it and being briefly banned from Twitter for claiming that hydroxychloroquine was 100% effective in treating the virus. Well, I'm back on Twitter now, thankfully. New ownership. I appreciate the question

has anyone asked our public health leaders that question? will they apologize for everything they got wrong? the lockdowns were completely unnecessary they should never have happened and the young people of the west lost proms, graduation whatever equivalent you have here in the UK for no good reason whatsoever and you guys can laugh all you want

but let's look at the data. Suicide rates of young people in the West went up after COVID. There's speech delays. There's a misery problem. And we locked down the generation of people that needed to be locked down the least that have now bared the consequences the most on top of a hyperinflation crisis,

which caused a housing crisis, which has caused a sovereign debt crisis. All for what? Because we were worried that something that materially was never a greater threat than the seasonal flu to these people in this room, it was never a greater threat than the seasonal flu. That is a fact of science, because we have to trust the science. And again, we can go back and forth, but this is the more important thing. It was never about trusting the science.

It was about trusting the scientists that confirmed this view. There was something called the Barrington Declaration. If you don't know what this is, all of you have a moral obligation to know what it is. The Barrington Declaration was thousands of scientists from around the world that said these lockdowns are doing more harm than good. And the one thing that we never talked about through all of this that now the pharma companies magically discovered after they were able to proliferate a vaccine is early interventions is the fact that if you catch COVID early what is your vitamin D level let's have a serious conversation about whether or not you're chronically overweight in my country we are a fat country we're good at a lot of things we're also really good at gaining weight why didn't we also say to the American people and be honest if you are 50 pounds overweight you have a

much higher likelihood of dying of COVID well that would be considered to be politically insensitive in America. So how do I respond to critics? Honestly, I'm proud of the work that we did during COVID. I opposed the lockdowns from the beginning. We talked about early interventions. We platformed people that were right all along. And meanwhile, the people that got the most important public policy questions of our time wrong have never felt any sort of criticism. They've never actually faced justice. And I think we of the people of the West deserve an apology from our leaders for all the suffering that they inflicted on the young people of both our countries. So you've described recently how it used to be 10 vaccines.

Now it's 72 shots for our babies. Something's not right and our kids are sicker than ever. How would you respond to criticism that your rhetoric regarding vaccinations is dangerous and irresponsible when considering a global rise in vaccine distrust and deaths from vaccine preventable diseases including measles and meningitis? Well first of all, number one, you can use your own agency and you can get nine COVID shots if you want. I'm not preventing that. I think though that a robust conversation needs to happen that inoculations have risen across America. I'll just talk about America. I know this for certain. Inoculation and vaccine rates have risen and chronic diseases are

higher than ever. And there is a perplexing rise in a lot of the secondary and third tier issues. Of course, I'm pro-vaccine. If you want to get vaccines, we should do it prudently. We should do it appropriately. We should do it smartly. But in the same way, we should also simultaneously respect medical freedom and religious conscience. The criticism is this. I'm not a scientist, and I don't play one on TV, but I also use human reason and one would say common sense to also ask the very simple question. The public health authorities got almost every major problem, almost major every question of COVID wrong. Why should we continue to delegate trust to them? Trust is earned. It is not given. And so, yeah, look, I'm sure someone's going to ask a question

or two about that. That's fine. I'm by no means a quote unquote expert on all that. But let me also question this. The experts, they have to now, number one, you have to apologize when you get something really wrong. And I think you have to get back into the public square and prove to us why we should trust you when, for example, in my country, I'm not sure if it was for you guys, we had this thing of six feet to slow the spread. Anthony Fauci just made it up. The data shows that he just arbitrarily made it up. There is not a single public health reason why we had six feet to slow the spread. Locking down schools actually made COVID worse and delayed the inevitable spread. The only country in Europe that I think was a model was Sweden. They kept schools open. They

kept restaurants open. They leaned into herd immunity. And generally, their statistics were way better than some of the other countries that were correlated to it. So everyone has the agency to do what they want to see fit. And yes, I do think that there is something troubling when the childhood vaccination schedule goes from 10 shots to 72 shots, some of which are things, for example, hepatitis B. Upon birth in America, I don't know how it is in the UK, within seconds, they will inoculate a child against hepatitis B. Number one, hepatitis B vaccine expired by the age of 13. And there's only two ways to get hepatitis B, through sexual intercourse or through intravenous drugs or some other correlated way. So unless it is a son or a daughter of an active drug user or a drug mom, mom totally get it, which you can test for in utero, the argument for hepatitis B vaccine within seconds of a baby being born is, I think, questionable at best. And so those of us that even ask the question, why are we using a hepatitis B vaccine when we can maybe wait till they're 12 or 13 and when they're sexually active? No, you must do it

and you must just trust the science. Okay, well, that's not good enough for us. So Turning Point USA acquired students for Trump in 2019 and worked on targeting students on college campuses, especially ahead of the 2020 election. However, despite an increase in youth turnout in 2020, Trump's support was worse with young people in several battleground states than 2016. How would you respond to critics who claim that this failure was partly due to Trump outsourcing youth outreach to Turning Point USA? How did he do this last election? Well, I mean, his support was better in youth,

but it was still lower amongst youth than the Democrat support was. We won the youth vote in the state of Michigan, and we ran basically the entire youth operation in 2024. In fact, anyone can look on chat, GPT, Grok, or Google. I mean, whatever you want. We crushed the youth vote. Even Democrats acknowledge it.

There's story after story after story why are young people moving so far to the right and so will you give me credit for that i mean why do you think that like in several key states even in 2024 amongst the young we did anywhere between 10 to 25 points better in the key battleground states this is not just conjecture it is material fact both young men and young women moved to the right dramatically. In America, young people are Donald Trump's most loyal cohort, not even baby boomers. According to the Yale Youth Poll and the Harvard Youth Poll, Donald Trump has actually made the most gains amongst younger voters. And I guess maybe something we did had something to do with that.

And what do you see as the future of conservatism amongst young people? I think it's going to be the dominant, God willing, dominant worldview amongst young people in America, and it's ascendant. Again, what we are seeing in the States, and I don't know if it's the case here in the UK, young men in particular are on pace to be the most conservative generation

in history, and it's an exciting trend, and we're leaning into it. We see this in the macro trends. We also see this micro. Young women are following suit. There's kind of two Gen Zs. There are Gen Z that was basically out of college or near end of college at COVID. And then there was Gen Z that was in high school. What would the equivalent term be in high school? Whatever you call. Yeah. Okay. And they had their lives obliterated those most formative times their life 15 16 17 18 they were forced to wear masks they had to do school through zoom they saw

friends that uh many of whom that took their life or suicide rates went up exponentially and also on top of that we had this insane race stuff in america during 2020 otherwise known as floydapalooza where we decided to burn our country because a guy drug overdosed on the streets of Minneapolis. And that's true. He did drug overdose. It's not just my opinion. Just read the medical examiner report, the Hennepin County medical examiner report. And so then all of a sudden we decided to commit cultural suicide and throw statues.

By the way, in London, they threw a statue into the river or something because we're systemically racist. I'm sorry, our two countries are the two least racist countries ever to exist in the history of the world. And you guys should also be thanking the Lord that you have someone like William Wilberforce to look up to, and you should be building statues to Wilberforce, not taking down statues of your history, because it's thanks to Western values that we abolish slavery, and the world is a profoundly better place because of that worldview and we as conservatives are unafraid to tell that story and that truth so you've condemned the civil rights act of 1964 as a huge mistake correct why do you believe it was a mistake to pass anti-discrimination legislation and what do you

think would be better policy for being treated fairly and equally which you see as an american principle yeah nothing against the intent but it was too broadly written and it played into something called disparate impact disparate impact was woven within the civil rights act and disparate impact basically says if two racial groups have different outcomes the answer must be racism it does not allow any legal nuance so there are four components to quote-unquote the anti-racist regime of amer. I don't pretend to know what goes on in this country. I could just talk about America. I'm sure that's fine. And it's four components, affirmative action, critical race theory, DEI, and disparate impact. Those are the kind of the

four components. All of them have their subsection. The Civil Rights Act led the way to affirmative action, which is weaponized, quote unquote, reverse racism against Asian and white people. And the Civil Rights Act also blazed the trail for disparate impact as a legal theory, basically saying that if black Americans are doing worse in a group, it might not be because of marital differences or cultural differences or single motherhood issues. It must be racism. And so because of that, the Civil Rights Act was too broadly written. It's now being applied in my country as a way to get rid of voter integrity, to get rid of election integrity, to get rid of voter ID. The Civil Rights Act is also now being applied to put men in female locker rooms. So the intent, it should have been a single-page or a two-page bill to say that you cannot discriminate against based on the color of somebody's skin, period, end of story. Instead, we get a multiple hundred page bill with lots of chapters and lots of lesser

known amendments that created basically a permanent anti-racist bureaucracy within our federal government to go find racism where it doesn't exist and create it in new places where otherwise did not exist. So you've described Martin Luther King Jr. as awful, not a good person, even though many conservative commentators have spoken in support of what he says, including his quote, where they will be judged about his children, where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

So does his speech and his general ethos not then agree with your views on Deidre? No, I've complimented him as well, but I mean, first of all, he was a personally morally flawed man, and to be fair, a lot of people I sometimes look up to are morally flawed. But also, I mean, first of all, he was a personally morally flawed man. And to be fair, a lot of people I sometimes look up to are morally flawed. But also, I mean, we're all morally flawed. We're all sinners, I would hope.

Actually, many of you probably don't believe in God, so never mind. So, look, Martin Luther King, in a lot of different ways, had a promise of a colorblind America. I don't want to go too deep into this. I don't know how, maybe it's very interesting to UK students about MLK. But there is a mythology around MLK that does not warrant the reverence that he gets treated with in America. Should he be mentioned amongst lots of people in the 20th century that was complicated and at the end of his life advocated for a more communistic view and then actually got away from race blindness and actually got towards

race obsession? I'm totally cool with that. He did some great things. He did some things that were not so great. In America, though, you must understand he is looked to as the new founding father. The main contention that I have with the Civil Rights Act and the civil rights movement and how it ended, not how it started, is that we refounded the country fundamentally. We cast aside our founding roots and our founding documents, the U.S. Constitution, and we decided to basically usher in the Civil Rights Act as a new anti-racist dogma creed. And I find something fundamentally wrong with that. Our birth certificate as Americans is the Declaration and the law of the land is tied with the U.S. Constitution. It was not the Civil Rights Act. And so with all of that to say,

we have a national holiday to MLK. We got rid of a national holiday for our first president and our founding father, George Washington. We used to call it Washington birthday. Now we call it President's Day in our country. So that's just maybe some context to answer that question. YRefi is an amazing debt resettlement company. It may not be available in all 50 states. Privacy loan debt in America totals about $300 billion. About $45 billion of that is labeled as distressed. Go to YRefi.com. YRefi is not a debt settlement company, but they work with each borrower individually, tailoring each loan to each borrower's specific situation. They provide you with a custom loan payment based on your ability to pay. YRefi is not a debt settlement

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That is YREFI.com. May not be available in all 50 states. They were the sponsor of our viral, amazing campus tour. So check it out right now at YREFI.com. So you tweeted ahead of the January 6th Capitol attack that Turning Point USA and Students for Trump were sending more than 80 buses of patriots to D.C. to fight for this president, although it ended up being seven. Do you see your claims, including that the election was stolen, as contributing to January the 6th? I mean, it's somewhat of an irrelevant question, but no, of course not. In fact, our students were the ones that didn't even go to the Capitol and peacefully went home.

But, I mean, how deep into January 6th do you want to get? It wasn't an insurrection by any means whatsoever. There were some people that acted totally improperly, and they should not assault police officers or break windows. But there were also a lot of people that walked into the Capitol building, and the doors were open for them, and they walked between the queued lines that were there and said a prayer. And these are the people that walk around with pocket constitutions and they were smeared in the largest witch hunt and manhunt, I should say, the largest manhunt in American law enforcement history that resulted in 1,300 arrests of non-violent offenders that walked into the people's house in the United States Capitol

building while violent crime rose in almost every major city in the country. And so I don't know how much, maybe I'm sure there'll be a question on January 6th. You've compared same-sex sexual behavior to drug and alcohol use and described it as an error and said you don't agree with the lifestyle. How would you justify these comments whilst also speaking about welcoming gay people into the conservative movement? Well, first, we all have flaws. That's number one. But number two, how do I justify it?

It doesn't matter what Charlie Kirk believes. That's a view derived from scripture. And so the Bible talks very clearly about God's natural order. We see this reflected in the natural law. Some of my closest friends and closest people that work with me alongside at Turning Point USA participate in a same-sex lifestyle, and that's their own prerogative. But if you ask me what I believe and why I believe it, it's derived straight from scripture. And you've spoken of marriage as between one man and one woman, even whilst polls have consistently shown most Americans as in support of same-sex marriage. How would you respond to critics regarding your position on this? I don't derive my morality from up or down vote. How would you respond to criticism

that far-right wing discourse, particularly online, is inflamed by organizations such as Turning Point USA and your rhetoric, even as you condemn attendance of neo-Nazis at your events? I don't even know how to respond to that. I mean, how do I respond to critics that I'm inflaming tensions? If the truth inflames you, you have a problem. It's not my problem. What do you see as the role of an institution

such as Turning Point USA in shaping national discourse? And what do you think is next for the organization in terms of what you discuss? Yeah, I mean, look, we're very known for hopefully what we'll see here, which is respectful dialogue. We have an open mic on campuses. I did over 100 hours of campus debates this semester, seen billions of times around the world.

And yeah, look, as far as conservatism, we plan to win. And for the three conservatives that are here tonight, I hope you guys get your mojo back. This was once a great country. I want to see it great again. You guys are a husk of your former self. You guys, you can laugh and sneer all you want, but the country that split the atom and invented the steam engine and eradicated slavery and brought common law to the world can do a lot better than this. And you are your existence led to our existence. And for whatever I can do, I hope that this country finds a leader or a group of leaders.

I'm not here to give you political advice. I hate when foreigners do that to Americans. You guys, whatever you want. But I do have a wish that the world feels like it's missing something. It feels like it's missing something when Great Britain or England or whatever politically correct thing I have to say. Because I guess England, I can't fly an English flag now, whatever nonsense that is. Be proud of your heritage. You've done good for the world. Stop apologizing. Get your energy. Get your vitality.

Get what made England and made Great Britainain such a phenomenal place i hope you get that back and i hope that you reject the swan song of multiculturalism and get back to the fundamental truth of the truism that a strong britain means a strong world and therefore a strong west and we can stand up for what is good true and beautiful would you agree with commentators that your politics have become more conservative in recent years and what's caused this shift? Yes. Partially, honestly, getting married and having children, something that I hope all of you do. Getting married and having children is an objective good thing for yourself and for society and for, of course, your children. The fact that we're having less children in the West

is a very alarming trend. And as I got more conservative, as I got, you know, as I got married and I started to have a couple of kids, I started to realize this is what I'm fighting for. And I understand the threats against their well-being and their livelihood. And then also I got more serious about my faith. So you've spoken today against affirmative action in educational institutions. How would you propose making excellence in education more equitable for students from disadvantaged backgrounds? IQ tests. And do you see equal treatment as possible without considering...

Just so we're clear, IQ tests don't have anything to do with background. Meaning like, okay, if you have somewhat of an equal nutritional capacity, it doesn't matter how much you study or you get an IQ. Maybe you can get an IQ tutor and boost it by a couple points. But we should bring back IQ tests in the West. Please continue. I was just going to say, do you see it as possible without considering any external factors for students when applying for higher education, such as economic background? Well, external factors can be factored in.

But affirmative action isn't that. At least in America. I don't know how it works here. Affirmative action in America is what it was, we struck it down at the Supreme Court, thankfully race-based, which is that a certain melanin content gets you certain points, and a certain melanin content gets you demerits. Great, we're going to move now to... Okay, am I standing here? Yeah, yeah, at the discussion. Thank you. Can we settle down, please?

We're going to move on to our questions. Our first question is from Zinousha Zubair from Sydney, Sussex. Come up and ask a question. Remember, you have the right of response. I have quite a simple question for you. Now, I know you've debated Dean Withers on Jubilee before. I was wondering why you now refuse to engage with further debate with him. Wait, hold on.

First of all, he's coming on my show this summer. And let me get this straight. I flew 5,000 miles across the world to have you ask why I'm not going to debate a left-wing YouTuber? Well, I mean, he continuously tries to get your attention at your campus. Yeah, right. And you just ignore him. I've debated him twice in the last calendar year. He's coming on my show this summer.

Let me be clear. I came to Cambridge to have you ask me that? I mean, you talk about freedom. I'm just using my freedom of speech to ask you a simple question you seem to be dodging it for some reason no I've debated him twice in the last year and he's coming on this summer for a long-form discussion but is this what I can expect yeah he's making videos about you avoiding him on your campus debates right so let me understand let me tell you how this works I do a campus event like a Texas A&M University. I rent it out. I'm there for three hours. He shows up demanding to come up to the

mic immediately, cutting in line of other students. It's not Joe Biden's America anymore where you can just cut in line and get whatever you want. So therefore, I say, excuse me, Dean, we'll talk another time. He makes this YouTube video as if I'm scared to debate him, even though I debated him twice in the last year. Does that sufficiently answer your question? Yes, it does. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Our next question is from James Loveridge from Anglo-Ruskin University. So, firstly, thank you for coming here, Charlie. It's nice to meet you. So my question is, I am a Conservative and I did back Trump in 2024, but I'm troubled that the GOP refuses to hold him accountable for his personal and legal failings, and how can we claim to stand for moral values and the Constitution while excusing behaviour that we condemn from the left? Isn't it the hypocrisy undermining our credibility, especially with the next generation? What specifically do you have issue with? Well, countless things it has done.

The what? Stormy Daniels. You know, the bus interview that he put down to Locker Room Talk. You know, his multiple legal values, filings. And what would you like to see them do? And you voted for this man. No, I can't vote for him. Whatever, you said you voted, or whatever, I don't know. Plenty of Americans, I don't know, you said you voted for this man so no i can't vote for him whatever you said you

voted or whatever i don't know plenty of americans i don't know you said you supported him so yeah is that correct maybe i'm putting yeah no no no that's correct okay yeah no i'm not saying that i supported him on some of his policies and him but a lot of conservatives i'm not saying you personally but a lot of conservatives refuse to call him out or critique him on anything and will ignore that straight away. I mean, I critique him. He's a friend of mine. I critique him. I don't think Canada should be the 51st state. We have enough liberals in America. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers. our next question is from kai bevan at trinity hall so thank you for coming charlie my question to you i mean i'm a medical student and i'm going to throw out the big a word i I know you get asked about it a lot, but I want to hear it from you.

Your opinion is on abortion. Life begins at conception. But about abortion specifically. Why do you think abortion is wrong specifically? Well, you agree murder is wrong? I agree. Okay, so this is where we get to the question, right? Because what is it about murder you say is wrong?

Like, why is murder wrong? Well, because it's a human being. Not just because it has consciousness or because it's of a certain age. Because it's a human. And what is it that gives human being this moral worth? Not its consciousness, necessarily. I didn't say its consciousness. I know. I can imagine.

It's because it is a human being, because that is a soul. And what is this soul? Where does this come from? This idea that it's... Exactly. I mean, again, the Greeks postulated that it is the entirety of your being. Okay, you guys can laugh. as a soul and what what is this soul where does this come from this idea that exactly i mean again the greeks postulated that it is the entirety of your being okay you guys can laugh i mean it's true i mean every civilization has had a different belief but agreed upon ethical monotheism which is

the creed of the west and what the birth certificate of my country articulates that every human being is more than just matter it's more than just a clump of cells but it also has an invisible element to you that will live beyond you. Fine. So, I mean, can you say that comes from the Bible or where else do you get that from? Ethical monotheism, which is the creed of the West. And again, the Declaration of Independence mentions God four times. The founders were explicitly believed, not in a secular morality, but a divinely given one, of at least this idea that there is a god and you are not him and let me ask you what is the first stage of human development so the first i mean this is the

thing right we can take it from the sperm being generated in the father and the oocyte being generated in the mother right they fuse at birth uh conception sorry the only thing that happens at conception is these two cells fuse no dna is created is created. A zygote. DNA is not created. No, that's not true. The DNA coding at the zygote. Hold on. Time out. I'll let you finish. Does a zygote have a unique marker? Charlie, DNA... Does a zygote have a unique marker? You have to let me speak. You have to answer it. Yes or no?

Does a zygote have a unique marker? Define a unique marker. Meaning, can you differentiate the DNA coding between the mother and the zygote if you examine it under a deoxyribonucleic acid analysis can you only purely because the addition comes from the father oh so it is something different Charlie DNA is not created DNA is not created you have the father has his own genome the mother has her own genome they fuse this is why you have the same characteristics

similar ones to your mother similar ones to your father that's why you have the same characteristics, similar ones to your mother, similar ones to your father. That's why you have similar characteristics to your siblings. DNA is not created, right? So when you ask me, where does a human being come from? I can say to you, it starts at conception. But all conception is these two cells joining, right? But these two cells were created, the mother's cells were created long before, they were created when she was a fetus. So there's none of this DNA being produced, right? So we can't, we can't establish, the only

thing that happens at conception is these two cells fuse. Now this idea that that means that for some reason suddenly that moral worth comes in, but it wasn't there before when you had these two cells who had half the DNA, but suddenly there's a switch. Correct, something magical happens at that point.

It's not magical, Charlie, we know about this. Well, hold on, hold on. Charlie, Charlie. Time out. Hold on. Charlie, I promise you, I'm not trying to score points. I'm not trying to score points on you. We call it the miracle of life for a reason.

We've not been able to yet replicate human life development outside of the womb. We call it the miracle of life because, yes, it's something beautiful. The ability to form and you hit it. It's magical. You say magical, is it, oh, it's beautiful, it's an incredible thing that happens, of course, but it's not incredible in the sense

we don't know what's going on. There's no new DNA coming out of nowhere. Hold on, but time out. Isn't there a separate DNA, though, than the mother? Yes, from the father. Okay, yes, but it's not the father's DNA either. a new coding is created charlie you are a blend of the two and your so when did your life begin okay so

when did your life i mean again this is this comes from what you define as where life starts you can say life starts conception but i'm telling you i believe that's just an arbitrary point right that's just the moment these two cells fuse now you say about this mother thing so the way the way dna is arranged in a cell is it's arranging chromosomes chromosomes are paired up so you have one from the mother one from the father typically in a healthy individual right now you can take those maternal chromosomes out and you can find that this is who the person's mother is and you can do the same with the father now the reason you are different to your mother and father is because some of those chromosomes express genes that are different from each other. And so those genes interact, and that's what gives rise to you, right?

There's no space for any kind of moral framework to come into that until you consider that a human being is capable of consciousness and of suffering. But unless you, if you take that out of the equation, the fact that these two DNA, you know, whatever they're called, molecules, right? These two DNA molecules are fusing. That does not suddenly flip a switch that attributes moral worth to that individual. I'm just saying, I'm not trying to score points. By what moral standard do you believe that?

I believe that if an individual is capable of suffering, then it's wrong. Now, can I explain my opinion on abortion, just so you can understand? I would agree, as many reasonable people would, that at nine months, it's unreasonable to expect someone to get an abortion right unless you have some extreme circumstances but for an elective abortion seems a bit radical to me but it also seems radical to say that a woman who has just you know those cells have just fused to deny her of an abortion also seems wrong to me because that that you know that zygote is not capable of suffering as far as we know so you're by again by what moral standard? Is that just your opinion?

Where did you get that moral standard from? Because suffering is a bad thing. We all know suffering is a bad thing. That's an objective fact, right? Okay, so you do believe in objective morality. I believe that suffering is an objectively negative feeling. So if you can't feel it, is it okay? What do you mean if you can't feel it?

If you can't feel the pain, is it okay to inflict the pain? In the sense that if no one's suffering from it, if you have a scenario where nobody is suffering from something, then yes, of course. There's no, there's no, a moral, something is only a moral question if it affects someone's well-being. So let me just make sure I understand this correctly. That if it doesn't affect their well-being, so dementia patients that don't know who they are or where they're from, can we execute dementia patients because they're confused about their well-being? Can you imagine a scenario? Or Alzheimer's patients.

Alzheimer's patients don't really know much about anything. Can we schedule them for execution because they can't technically suffer? Can I respond? So can you imagine a scenario where we lived in a society where we killed people when they suffered from dementia, were incapable of suffering society where we killed people when they they you know they underwent they suffered from dementia were incapable of suffering and we killed them right that would not that does not it's not a scenario that involves an absence of suffering there's still suffering involved people's fact imagine you grow up thinking my dad could be killed at

any moment because he's going to get dementia imagine living your life thinking i could get dementia and suddenly i'd be killed by my state imagine a world where you slaughter a million babies every year in america charlie charlie it's not slaughter that's the problem hold on it's a forcible removal from the umbilical cord of an another human life again we we have clarity but not agreement biologically you know that your entire coding began at conception your coding or uniqueness denying i disagree with that okay when those two cells fused together to yours to use your terminology yes that is where the process of humanly accepted terminology in the interest of time can we bring this question to a close human development objectively begins at that

moment therefore those human beings are deserving of human rights. Would we keep going or do you want to? No, thank you. I'm not finished. Yeah, you can finish. The process of development begins from the moment the sperm is being generated in the father, the moment the eggs are being generated in the mother, to say that suddenly the moral worth switches on when they fuse doesn't make any sense. That's just a point you've taken. It makes perfect sense because that is when your journey as a human being, when the sperm

and egg were separate, you were not yet a fused human being. You were not created uniquely. DNA existed. Your DNA existed. I thought. Well, no, the parts of your DNA existed. Your DNA did not exist. It's like saying that we have a full car

just because we have all the parts. It was not yet put together until conception happens and the zygote was formed. Thank you. I think we have to get on to the next question. Thank you. This podcast was once just a dream. And by the way, thank you guys for supporting it.

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slash charlie. Our fourth question tonight is from Rudy Ellis-Jones from Emanuel College. Hello, thanks for coming today to talk. So my question, as someone studying archaeology and biological anthropology, I've learned that moral codes and social norms have always been fluid, shaped by time, culture, power. So many ancient and recent societies embrace same-sex relationships and even the idea of third genders well before Western conservatism even existed. So when you claim that modern conservative values represent some kind of universal, objective moral truth, like you said on your chair over there,

aren't you just defending a selective, historically recent ideology that erases most of human history and targets people who have always been part of it? No, but can you point to me of a... APPLAUSE And maybe you can educate me. Can you point to me

a great power that endorsed same-sex marriage? Not cohabitation, but marriage. Ancient Mesopotamia. As marriage. As marriage. As marriage in existence. Recognized by the state. 100%. How did that work out for them?

It worked out perfectly fine. It was an accepted norm of society. Okay, I still think it's wrong. Okay, okay. Swiftly moving on. So you said it was based on scripture and you believe that there are moral, objective, universal truths. Yes, there are. Murder is wrong today and murder was wrong 2,000 years ago. Right, okay, fair.

That's not same sex, but fair. I see your point. There are moral truths that are transcendent of time, place, and matter. Okay, but just to clarify, you believe that this is in the Bible. This is laid out in the Bible that man shall not sleep with man and so therefore... It's also repeated throughout the New Testament as well. In the book of Matthew, Jesus reaffirms the biblical standard from okay so i'm going to make two very very quick points so the first um so if we look at

the old testament in isolation just to start off with as an example so let's look at exodus 35 2 which suggests that if you work on the sabbath you should be put to death if you look at leviticus 11 7 it suggests that if you have pork you should be put to death let me finish i'll be done uh if you plant two crops side by side you should be stoned by your entire village if you wear a suit which you are wearing now that contains two different fibers intertwined into the same jacket you should be burned to the stake by your own mother now following that rationale in leviticus uh 18 22 and it states that man shall not sleep with man why aren't we burning ourselves at the stake as well why aren't we stoning ourselves to death

do you care to address my main contention that Christ affirmed biblical marriage in the book of Matthew and can you tell me the difference between the seral ceremonial the moral and the ritual law and then finally also tell me about christianity the difference between the new and the old covenant or are you just going to cherry pick certain verses of ancient israel that do not apply to new christianity so we'll look at two points then so firstly um if we look at the old testament uh we can see the kind of inconsistencies there we've already touched upon that right that makes sense secondly you mentioned the point of jesus and christ he never mentioned anything to the homosexuality at all well hold on a second he affirmed he affirmed biblical marriage as one man and one woman he said a man shall leave his romans right in the

new testament in matthew that is not correct i believe in the new testament in the new testament well romans is also in the new testament secondly Secondly, in Romans 1, the Apostle Paul talks negatively about homosexuality explicitly. Also, homosexuality is repeated in the book of Titus and in the book of Jude as not being favorable as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Not even talking about the Old Testament verses. There are three types of the 613 Levitical laws. And you, of course, in your own way, cherry-pick some of them. We do not live under the ceremon of them we do not live under the ceremonial we do not live under the ritual and but we do live under the moral there's only 10 of the

moral that we as christians believe we're bound to some believe nine which of course is the decalogue and so none of those that you mentioned we as christians believe that we live under however we do look at what christ looks articulated as the biblical standard of marriage and we can also look to church tradition for this as well and the church has had a tradition for well over 2,000 years. Even myself as a Protestant acknowledges that tradition is marriage between one man and one woman. Fair point. But, okay, say we put aside the Old Testament for now.

We'll put that aside and the inconsistencies there and we'll look purely at the New Testament following your rationale, okay? Now, when you say that Christ lays specifically and the New Testament states specifically that man shall not sleep with man, I'd like to point out a linguistic error on that point i did not say that i said the biblical marriage was affirmed and then romans 1 did talk negatively about the action of homosexuality

but ultimately that affirmation comes from eight lines in there that suggest that man shall not sleep with man yes of course yes the old testament and new testament harmonize one another but christ brought it to a different level a a different covenant, and a different moral teaching. It wasn't just enough to say that man shall strike eye for eye, that you shall turn the other cheek, that you shall love your enemy. Christ's moral standard was much more even elevated than that of the Israelites and the Hebrews. I'm going to ask you whose Bible. Now, your Bible that you use currently is written in the English language, correct? Yeah, the King James Version, yes, thanks to Tyndale.

Well, exactly, it's written in the English language, which yeah the king james version yes thanks to tyndale yeah well exactly it's written in the english language which in itself is only say 500 that 500 years old now but the christianity in itself say it's 2 000 years old or even older yeah correct now which means that the bible was originally written not in english but in ancient greek huh in coinier greek yeah correct now if we look at the greek terminology and man yes and jesus spoke aramaic You could translate things, you acknowledge that. Well, we translate things, but translations are linguistically ambiguous. As a former classicist, I know that language can't be translated directly. So, for example, if we look at the translation of certain words into man,

so I've got two words here. So I've got malakoi, which means essentially soft, which isn't necessarily directly saying a gay man. And then we've got our, oh God, how do I say that um asana asana koitai which essentially means prostitutes now if we look at things linguistically we can pick apart the bible and say that actually it wasn't saying man shall not sleep with man it's saying man shall not sleep with prostitutes which is an entirely different linguistic thing i'm not even getting into leviticus though but no my contention is completely new testament focused this isn't leviticus, though. My contention is completely New Testament focused. This isn't Leviticus.

But you said, man shall not speak another name. So you're talking about Romans 1. Okay, but these words are used throughout the Bible. Well, actually, in Romans 1, it was actually women sleeping with women. So you got your verses wrong. In Romans 1, Paul is prophesying about the end of the world. And he's saying that in the end times, woman will like with woman like, and man will, I think it might say man will like with man like. You have to get the verses specifically.

But it is agreed upon, and you can agree, this is why tradition is important. And I even say this as a Protestant, that we believe that scripture is very important. But also look to tradition. Church tradition has had an unbroken chain affirming matrimony. Holy matrimony being one man, one woman. Even as a non-Catholic, I'm glad that Pope Leo has reaffirmed in the last couple of days. And so I'm not even sure you're contentioning your point. Are you saying that the Bible doesn't affirm

marriage is one man one woman or are you saying church tradition doesn't affirm marriage is one man one woman the Bible doesn't affirm that is complete nonsense it's a linguistic error but Christ our Lord which is the standard he affirms this idea that you will leave your father's home going back to Genesis 12 and this idea of

Abraham leaving his father's home and you will cleave to your wife that it will be called one in fact this idea of Abraham leaving his father's home. And you will cleave to your wife. That a new, it will be called one. In fact, this idea of a new creation, which is something that is then used by the Apostle Paul to describe the church of Christ and the church being the bride of Christ with Jesus. So I'm not even sure your contention. But you're just avoiding my point. I'm saying the Bible that we have today is 100% a translation, and a translation is not ambiguous. Well, hold on.

But what about specifically in Matthew or in the book of Romans? But in order for you to be correct, you mean the church fathers translated it wrong when they were within like 50 years of this. In order for your contention to be correct, you have to say that the early church fathers that wrote the early letters to the church, they were translating it wrong the tradition they established was wrong so by then we can lean on tradition and scripture so when you get tradition plus scripture you get something that is authentic that is real and that is verifiable i've already highlighted the tradition does not align with scripture we've gone back thousands of years to ancient mesopotamia but no but understand but at the time they all they all spoke greek they wrote greek and they spoke Aramaic. So for example, when they were writing the early gospels. The synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

They were obviously writing in Greek. They knew that language. So in Matthew when they were writing Greek. And then the early church fathers knew Greek. And adopted that as church tradition. We have a 2,000 unbroken chain. I think you would irrefutably say. That it was the teachings of Christ for one man and one woman. the church tradition has been unbroken for 2 000 years and they derived it

from scripture of that original language you can't argue that that makes sense i mean if we agree to disagree then why don't we look at biology you know better than the church fathers no i don't i'm not saying i know better than the church fathers what i'm saying is linguistically there is undeniably an error regardless of what you say that is our our lens maybe but not from the people when they were making these traditions. I agree, they may have got that right, but that may not have been their original meaning. What we're saying is the meaning has been warped over time

because societal and cultural context, such as the British Empire... Can you start bringing this question to a close, please? It can be, but that is why tradition matters, because the tradition, they understood the context. Tradition is context-dependent. Well, yes and no, Because of course tradition is, but if the tradition lasts for 2,000 years, then we look back as to how did they get to that conclusion?

How did they reach that verdict? And if that verdict is in alignment with what we see in Scripture, it means that their verdict was correct in Scripture. They never reached that verdict. As I have historically pointed out, they never reached that verdict. In all of the major church councils, it was very... In the modern day? Well, no, no.

I'm talking about in like 300 and 400 and 500. The original church councils... Which in the scale of 2,000 years is nothing. No, but they set this unbroken chain. We've had an unbroken chain and a course that says that marriage is one man and one woman. The church has never wavered on this. Noted by the British Empire under British form of Christianity. All the way back to like 200 or 300.

The idea of biblical Christianity goes back to the early, early times of the church. When it was a scattered, persecuted church well before King Justinian. And well before the Eastern Roman Empire. Well before mass conversions. When it was a persecuted church, the church believed in one man, one woman. Because they got it from the scripture itself. Do we want to keep going? Can we move on to the next question, please?

Thank you. Our next question is from Damzith W from lucy cavendish college thank you um hello charlie um thank you for being here um just before i start with my question i wanted to address something you said earlier on sort of Western Christian values being the reason for the abolishment of slavery globally. I'm not sure whether you know this. I've seen you repeat in this quite often. I'm a practicing Buddhist and it was actually Buddhism, Buddhist emperors, Emperor Ashoka of India, who first abolished slavery globally. So I would sort of ask you to sort of look at other sort of... I will look into that. You did it globally? The Buddhists had that much span of influence?

Within India. Okay, I'll look into it. Thank you. Thank you. So first of all, my first question, or my only question is, you've advocated and applauded the reducing and removing of public funding for universities on the grounds they promote ideological biases. Given that universities play a critical role in driving national innovation, research, and upward mobility, especially through federally funded grants, how do you reconcile this position with the broader societal value that higher education institutes offer?

Well, they can, but in Harvard's case, for example, who's getting their funding pulled, they have a $50 billion endowment. Just so we are clear, in pounds, that would be like, what, $42 billion, $45 billion? I mean, I'm trying to learn the conversion rate here. I mean, it's an extraordinary amount of money. They can either use their endowments to fund it, and if you have certain behavior and certain practices, then you should not get federal funding.

Harvard is in direct violation of the United States Supreme Court fair admissions case, which says you cannot discriminate people based on the color of their skin. Go ahead. But isn't the whole point of it? You can't use endowments like that. The point of an endowment is use endowments like that the point of it they can the point of an endowment is to manage a fund through perpetuity cambridge has an endowment and that endowment allows uh professorships to be funded to allow for research into sciences that's the whole point

of it you just said hold on you just said it funds research into sciences that's what they should do with their monstrosity of an endowment. Yeah, but the endowment is... The interest alone on their endowment could fund the entire research and development budget of most Ivy League schools. They have a $50 billion endowment. Even like a podunk money manager in America can earn a 7% to 10% investment in the markets the last couple of years.

That's $5 billion of returns that that endowment could then reinvest in whatever they want. Instead, Harvard has become a hedge fund with a radical school attached. And I think that's very wrong for U.S. taxpayers to continue to subsidize. But it's not just Harvard. You've called on colleges being a scam. You've constantly attacked higher education institutes. You've attacked liberal arts as a scam. You've constantly attacked higher education institutes. You've attacked liberal arts as a scam. For example, like a lot of conservatives, Peter Thiel studied philosophy

at Stanford. Ronald Reagan studied sociology. A lot of them did study liberal arts and you keep undermining these august institutions which have provided a lot for society like society's backbones have been universities and higher learning institutes and yet you keep attacking them well they used to be largely but again i don't want to speak too much about this country but in america they don't represent fundamental american values you know peter teal after he wrote graduate stan, wrote an entire book criticizing college and then paying people not to go to college. So Peter Thiel, who spoke at this very school, and you guys had a great conversation with him, you know that he believes college is such a scam?

He would pay people $100,000 a year for 20 years straight not to go to college? So not exactly a good argument in your favor. Peter Thiel, who got a philosophy degree, made billions of dollars, and has now forked over tens of millions of dollars for people not to go to U.S. universities and colleges. But it's not just Peter Thiel. I know, but you mentioned him. I didn't. But to complete the point, is that... Thomas went to liberal arts.

Look, in America, there are far too many people going to college. We need people to become welders, electricians, people that work with their hands. There is a major trade deficit problem in the United States. We have 11 million well-paying jobs that we cannot find enough labor for. And instead, we have a lot of people going to university to go study North African lesbian poetry. It might sound good, but it doesn't necessarily, A, either develop the content, the character, or the development of the soul. And B, it does not necessarily also give you the skills necessary. Some college is good for you.

I'm a big proponent of Hillsdale College. Guys, can you please be quiet? I believe Hillsdale College is America's greatest college, and I'm a big proponent of that. But I would ask a question. In your own words, what do you believe the purpose of college is? It's critical engagement. But coming back to your point on lesbian poetry or whatever. North African lesbian poetry.

North African lesbian poetry. So in the morning, I actually had a lecture on development policy. And one of the key authors on sort of development economics is Nussbaum, who talks about how liberal arts sort of engages you critically. And one could argue, even North African lesbian poetry, I don't think that's a degree, I think that's just a module within a degree. Maybe. Yeah.

That makes you engage. The fact you don't know shows how rotten to the core universities have become. You're taking one example and telling conservatives and hordes of young people that college is a scam. College isn't a scam. I mean, I took my mom down to a pub just down the road where Watson and Crick announced DNA. If college... Guys, can we... Okay, wait one second. If college is a scam, then DNA wouldn't have been discovered.

Hold on a second. Yes, you're right. At this Pacific University, you guys split the atom. You had Sir Isaac Newton. You had some of the greatest minds of the West. I don't know about what's happening here, and I'm not going to criticize it. But at most colleges in the West, they've gone away from places of inquiry and appreciation of what is good and what is beautiful, and into this incessant oppression Olympics of trying to deconstruct the core canon that is our birth

certificate. I don't know if that's happening here. That's not true, though. In America, it is objectively true, okay? It isn't true. No, first of all, they removed Western Civilization as a core course in Stanford in the 1990s. They tried to bring it back with petitions, and the university said, no, teaching Western Civilization is racist. Shakespeare is not taught at major universities across America because it's deemed as racist.

I talked to some students earlier in the English department, and they said, hey, I'm studying Shakespeare. I said, that's refreshing because in a lot of U.S. schools, they don't teach Shakespeare because he's called racist. You would be surprised at how wretched to the core some of these colleges have become in America. If you look at the Global Innovation Index, America, which is predominantly, a lot of their majors are in humanities and liberal arts. They're number two on the Global Innovation Index. China is somewhere near 13. If you look at every metric, Fortune 1000 CEOs, 40% did humanities and liberal arts. There is a value in liberal arts,

yet you're criticizing it. Yes, and I'm going to keep on criticizing it. Also, the vast majority of liberal arts graduates do not respect freedom of speech. That is an empirical poll. They increasingly do not have reverence or gratitude for the United States of America. They don't care about the core values of the U.S. Constitution. If you want to go to

college, that's fine. But in our country, 40% of kids that enter college do not graduate. The kids that do graduate, half of them end up getting jobs that do not require any sort of college degree. There are all these made-up degrees. In America, I know it's different than the experience you might be having here. Your tutoring system here is objectively great. I'm glad you guys have it. The class sizes in America are 400 to 500 students, sometimes per introductory course, to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, so many things that don't matter to find jobs that do not exist. And so let me just make one final point is that, of course, some people should be going to college, but generally in the United States of America, it has become a racket of debt.

It has become a burden and a place where we're actually not putting our best and brightest into the job field itself to be equipped for the jobs of the future. Instead, we have a lot of baristas at Starbucks with philosophy degrees. You also mentioned indoctrination. As per the Oxford Dictionary's definition of indoctrination, it means that you take a belief and you can't critically observe that belief. Turning Point USA has over 30,000 chapters, 3,000 chapters across U.S. universities. So are you arguing that students, including conservatives, lack the critical thinking skills to sort of decide political ideologies, political beliefs, that they're so dumbfounded that they can't decide for themselves what's right and what's wrong,

and that your whole premise is on the fact that students like us, we lack critical thought in deciding what is thought in schools. Again, I'm not using Cambridge as the school that I think of, but in America, we have millions of people that go to these massive state schools that have humanities departments that are not reading the great books, that do not have a tutoring system, that are unfortunately laced with the most anti-Western thought imaginable. I don't really quite following what one thing has to do with the other, why 3,000 chapters has something to do with your indictment.

Maybe you can clarify, but I think we're out of time. You can clarify, but then you'll be fine. In general, colleges should be a place that lift you up to what is good, true, and beautiful. To study the great things that have been, to develop your soul, and develop your character. Character in Greek literally means like tattoo, the etch within you.

Far too often, colleges create ungrateful, pessimistic, and nihilistic revolutionaries that want to tear down what was before and instead have no alternative to build the future. And the West is suffering because of it. Thank you very much. Thank you. I disagree. Thank you very much. America's small businesses rely on TikTok to succeed, helping them attract more customers and drive more growth. From small batch sellers to fast growing brands, 74 percent of businesses on TikTok say it's helped them scale.

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Portions of the Charlie Kirk show are brought to you in part by tiktokeconomicimpact.com portions of the charlie kirk show are brought to you in part by tiktok economic impact.com our next question is from archie mcintosh at jesus college it's good to meet you charlie i hope you can understand first rule. I'm a little nervous. There's a very real chance I could wake up tomorrow, front page of YouTube. Charlie Kirk owns Man Bun Idiot with Facts and Logic. Destroys. Yeah, destroys.

So my question is, I agree that stable monogamous relationships often produce the best outcomes for society, but if that structure really works for everyone, why do we consistently see societies, once they become safer and more prosperous, move away from traditional monogamy? And why do so many marriages still end in divorce,

even among people who generally try to make it work? And just one final framing there. If you believe in free markets because they are decentralized and they adapt to reality without top-down control. Given the individual ability to form healthy long-term pair bonds very significantly with factors like genetics and ecologically calibrated attachment styles, why do you reject top-down control in economics but not extend that same rejection to human behavior in terms of marriage? Okay, so the first one, the second law of thermodynamics answers your question is that it's the law of decay societies tend to decay against the roots that created them for example as a side note here in this country you guys invented the idea of free

speech you brought it to the world you guys do not have free speech in this country anymore 30 people a day are arrested in the uk for inflammatory social media posts. Someone by the name of Lucy Connolly is currently facing prison time for a Facebook post that was critical of migrants. It is normal, unfortunately, for civilizations to get away from how they once operated and how they once were. Now, to your question, does that answer the first part of your question? You were saying why do they get away from monogamy? I want to make sure I'm answering your question. i would say i don't feel that that's a full answer okay so so the your answer you're asking why do they get away from what works that's is that correct yes yes well why do societies make this change once they become more prosperous oh

yeah okay i mean because prosperity leads the degeneracy for sure that would be the answer and so once you are prosperous you tend to no longer have the sure. That would be the answer. And so once you are prosperous, you tend to no longer have the moral guardrails or the limitations that the, let's just say, you no longer have delayed gratification because you have instant gratification because you have a surplus of goods, and then you have a decline of a transcendent moral order.

The second part of the question, can you remind me please what the second question was? Yeah. About markets? Oh yeah, okay, okay well i for example you have to i believe in intervention in markets if there is something that is improper morally so for example i do not believe that you should be able to scam your neighbor or have misleading advertising because i believe in a transcendent moral standard and the same goes for my my personal views on marriage okay so i think we largely agree on the foundation i like to propose something that

you might like to think about. So firstly, I absolutely acknowledge that, again, if everyone in society was able to maintain healthy long-term pair bonds, that would be best. Again, there's strong data showing the independent of socioeconomic factors. Broken homes are some of the strongest predictors of poor life outcomes. We totally agree, yes. And even, I'm not sure if many people here are aware of this,

but if you track, you know, as countries become more socially egalitarian, somewhat surprisingly, rates of female depression and anxiety also spike disproportionately. So I think one of the problems here is that when you try and impose more absolutism, inevitably, again, due to variance in attachment issues, you know, due to industrialized

culture absent parents screens you know raising kids around 50 of adults in the west develop attachment disorders which make it very difficult to maintain long-term pair bonds and then additionally you have things like variation of ketosin receptors density and shape also invasive press and there are going to be even you know even though there's five percent of people who feel that these rules really do not fit them they will push back and this will create ideologies that then grow into more wider appealing ideologies which then you know leads to the change i think this is what happened in the sexual revolution it started with a push for female autonomy and then it was almost morphed into a really exaggerated

expression of pushing for maximizing individual freedom and i think that when you try and impose moral absolutism this way it just inevitably causes pushback and i think if you were to as someone with a platform instead say hey monogamy is great it works best for most people but i also understand there are some people it doesn't work so well for more people would hear the message that you want to push okay thank you for that that's an interesting i've actually never gotten that question before it's very thoughtful would you say you're against moral absolutism then yes yes i would are you against that absolutely no i'm very open to having my mind changed and um so it's it's not an absolute thing

well i'm against moral absolutism do. Are you against moral absolutism absolutely? No. Okay, so then you're consistent. I think... It's all just kind of... I think... It's preference, not... It's about preference.

And you could basically do whatever you prefer. There is no transcendent moral order. Well, I think what you're doing there is slightly unfairly putting me into a loop. Because I'm very open to having my mind changed. What I'm saying, though, is that by definitionally, and this is something that will keep on coming back, you must choose what moral standard we live by.

I'm very clear as to what moral standard. The lie of the West, of modernity, the last 30 years, is that we're going to have you live and let live, and there will be no moral standard. That itself is a moral standard, and it's a really bad one. And to your point, that yes, it creates more more suffering it creates more despair and no i disagree with what you say and i respect the heart of what you're saying it i will say that i have a moral obligation not to accommodate when people fall short but instead try to lift them up towards the standard

that is true and that i know that works so where i'd push this is i'd ask you you describe people falling short when they fail to engage in long-term monogamy. What do you think causes that? Why do you think some people struggle? Many reasons. Economic is one of them. But the biggest is the death of religion and the death of Christianity in the West. As America, I'll just talk about America. The UK is unfortunately far less churched than America. But as America has become less churched, so many of these social ills rise.

So one thing I'd say, I study the evolution of behavior, in particular sexual romantic behavior. If you track all the different hunter-gatherer cultures that we can study, and we track how agriculture shapes things, you see the ecological conditions really reliably predict the prevalent monogamy, certain marriage systems. And what I think is what we refer to as attachment issues. They seem to be an ecological calibration to an environment. In environments that are more unstable, it's less optimal for an individual to grow up with a tendency to rely on long-term pair bonds.

And I think there's a mismatch with the modern world, again, coming back to industrialization. There are so many people who raise kids as absent parents. Daycare is massively linked to attachment issues. This then causes people to struggle to bond long-term. And then again, coming back to the genetic part, Raise kids as absent parents. Daycare is massively linked to attachment issues. This then causes people to struggle to bond long-term. And then again, coming back to the genetic part, there's again real research showing that especially vasopressin mutations and oxytocin mutations,

some people really just do not have the proclivity for this. What brings stability? Because you say stability is a good thing. And what would bring stability? So first of all, I would say we had what you might consider stability in the previous century. And then it became unstable. And then things... Why?

I'm saying because moral absolutism was imposed. Moral absolutism was lost. You see, modernity rose. We started to teach our kids moral relativism, and we got rid of moral absolutes. So it's the opposite. So why was it lost? Was it lost because people stopped pushing from top to bottom? Please stop bringing this question to a close.

Why was it lost? That's a question for far smarter minds. I can only tell you that it was. In America, it's honestly one of the worst decisions, not just worst ideas ever, which is modern feminism, largely from Betty Friedan's feminist critique, feminist mystique, I'm critique, feminist mystique, I'm sorry, feminist mystique, which acted as if every woman who's in a monogamous marriage in the

states is in some sort of tyrannical environment. And it has led to the women of the West being the most miserable, most depressed, most suicidal, most prescription drug addicted cohort on the planet. And I think we need to appropriately challenge feminism and tell young women that it's okay. In fact, it's courageous to get married and have children again. I think it would solve a lot of our problems. Well, I've been told to. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Our next question is from Tilly Middlehurst at Fitzwilliam College so I'm a feminist um my question uh is about the role of women though what should women's role in public and private life look like and what are the material benefits of that? Well, thank you for that. Can I take it? I don't even want to take this detour, but can we both agree on what a woman is?

Yes. An adult human female is a biological state of being that is also socially experienced. Can I please elucidate just one example of that social experience? Yeah, I was going to answer your question, but sure, go ahead. Yeah, okay, okay. So let's say you're a member of a tribe, and in that tribe you have the biological female anatomy, and in order to become a woman in that tribe you have to also get a tattoo that's a social experience that's mapped onto biological reality so can a

woman have a prostate and a woman have a prostate biologically speaking a woman is an adult human female that has a biological reality but it's also social experience right so i like i don't it's super easy like can a woman have a prostate? So, as per my definition of woman, I would say that people who have a prostate are biologically male, but they can sometimes be socially treated as women. Okay, got it. So, women can have prostates. Got it. Okay, so you're a feminist that actually isn't just fighting for women,

you're also fighting for men so yes yeah men also experience harms from uh patriarchy but i argue we're talking about the same feminism though just make sure yeah sure go ahead so men also experience harm from the patriarchal domination but i would argue that those harms come from that system of domination itself in the same way for example this isn't a threat but if i reached across and punched you in the face then my hand might hurt right so are we understanding that there are like patterns of power so I would also fight for the rights of men as a feminist just as I would fight for the rights of women sure um do you think women are happier than they were 40 years ago um I think I would have a few responses to that um I think that women

report more stress and dissatisfaction today because not because they have more rights or because of feminism but because they're under dual pressure to both excel professionally and also because of the domestic labor in homes that is structured around outdated expectations so for example studies like the OECD's better life index show that women's life expectancy education levels professional achievements have risen in countries with higher gender inequality so I would argue that what you're calling unhappiness is actually visibility, because now we hear women expressing dissatisfaction, whereas in the 50s, we prescribed them Valium and we lobotomized.

Yeah. That's really rich. I didn't know women not to complain 50 years ago. That's funny. So, hold on a second. Why are suicide rates going up more for women? I think that encourages... Forget complaining. Materially, women are killing themselves more. Why is that? I think that even if both men and women have become unhappier, men's suicide rates have risen as well, and that's also been exponential.

Can you at least concede that feminism offers only one potential explanation? There could be also other explanations. Of course, obviously, but feminism is the glaring thing in front of us where we have fertility rates down, we have marriage rates down, we have unhappiness up, and we did something in the 1960s out of the universities of Bredy Friedan and Gloria Steinem and all these feminists that basically said you're trapped in a home, go get a job, freeze your eggs, take birth control, and all of a sudden women are way unhappier than they were 40 years ago. And I just have to ask the question, why is that?

Is it working? And maybe there are biological differences between men and women that we should respect. And that deep down, a lot of women want to get married and have children. In fact, we should applaud it. And we should support it. And we should say, it means nothing if you're going to be a CEO of some shoe company or be some banker in London. What matters, if you raise children and you have something to pass down long after you're gone? I think I would bring two points to that. The first one is just really simple, which is that

you can ascribe liberalism all you want as the cause of the unhappiness. I would argue something else. I would say that it's certain economic policy that has very little to do with the social acceptance of alternative lifestyles. I would say that we can recognize that income inequality across a vast swathe of Western countries has increased, which causes all kinds of social ills, a lack of social cohesion, housing price growth doesn't correspond with wage growth, monopolies increasingly become kind of emboldened to interfere with politics, and monopolies don't prioritize social health either. I think that those offer more compelling reasons for a decline in happiness than an increase in freedoms, because just one more thing, on an intuitive basis, generally speaking, people

want more freedom, not less. Okay, so if true why is it do you agree that the happiest women of the west are married with kids um i would have to look into it but i think there are certain there are certain objectively we know that right the women with kids are not the ones tearing down statues right they're they're the ones that actually have obligations tearing down statues correspond to some kind of smiles per capita data set that i wasn't aware of? I mean, again, it's like, it's a little bit of a one-liner. But the happy and the grateful, the happy and the grateful usually don't go burn down Wendy's in their spare time, of which we saw in our country all throughout a single summer. But as a side note, you would agree objectively, study after study, survey after survey, that the women of the West that are

married and have children, especially a lot of children, are far happier than even the ones that earn more money correlated at the same age. So I also don't think that happiness is a very good metric, and neither do you, because you think gay people shouldn't just pursue happiness by being gay. They have other moralistic considerations to be making. So I don't think smiles per capita is a particularly convincing way to measure whether or not we should encourage women to be autonomous. I think we should maximize agency within a fair system that has reasonable parameters because it's expedient, it's good for the economy, it's logical, it's the moral thing because if we can't prove the material harms, we shouldn't discourage it.

And also self-reported studies is a really flawed way to do psychology. It's the week before my university exams right now and I'm standing here explaining the basic methodology behind survey collection in sociology, which you don't even think is a real subject, to Charlie Kirk. If I took one of those surveys right now, I'd check extremely miserable, but so would a Palestinian

child who's been torn to smithereens. How are we going to measure... You would say extremely miserable? No, I'm kind of making a joke. No, I mean, but seriously, like, as a, but hold on. I mean, like, that's an important point, though, is that the women in the West have it the best in the world, and yet they're way unhappier than women of sub-Saharan Africa. There's something fundamentally wrong here. Because the women of Sub-Saharan Africa have something that a lot of women in the West do not have. The women in the West have cats and they have good jobs.

And the women of Sub-Saharan Africa, they have a belief in the divine and they have kids. And maybe there's a biological undercurrent that is keeping a lot of women from realizing their full potential. And so without reading your phone and just like, you know, connecting. I'm not really reading my phone. Well, it's fine. Sure. Then you can answer without it. Fair enough. Would you agree that it's a good thing that more women get married and have children in the West? I would ask you, would you say that a sub-Saharan African woman who's experienced female genital mutilation and checks extremely happy in a survey,

and I also would check extremely happy in a survey, who do you think would be objectively more happy even if they both check the same answer again so i fully if you want to talk about how islam mistreats women we could talk all day long like i'm all for that we do okay good so we agree that we actually have many many things we should shut off muslim immigration to the uk right we totally agree i think that all religious fundamentalism is bad and if you take that logic we should also not allow evangelical Christians to participate either. Hold on. Hold on a second. Hold on. That's funny. Hold on.

Can you show me a single... Show me... What would your example, because I have 50, of a single Christian country that you would say mistreats women, right? America. Oh, really?

Yes. We had a female women vice president. We had a female vice president, a female speaker of the house. Women earn more than men in America. In R rwanda female representation in government out out seeds like supersedes the uk by quite a lot do women get treated better in rwanda okay is i might be super

off this like there's rwanda islamic like i'm not totally sure i don't think it is like is it like i don't know actually i don't it's not so again we talking about Islam. It's a little bit of a side note. But you must be morally clear, because you brought up female genital mutilation, which is a teaching of the Islamic faith. But as a side note, again, this is very important, which is I'm not here to require you to do anything or not. I'm making a simple observation, which is objectively true regardless. The women of the west are

miserable and they're miserable for a reason because we've told them to suppress how they are made by god and pursue something else and get a bunch of trinkets and get a bunch of promotions and they end up at 38 years old with a big flat in london and they're miserable and we should tell them to stop freezing their eggs and start finding their partner earlier and have lots of babies yeah okay i think i'd bring two just final points to this first one is just really intuitive right which is that if you actually care about women's happiness then the solution is to structurally support them that means universal child care shared legally enforceable parental leave and in nordic countries where women have high workforce participation and also some state support they report higher life satisfaction than in more conservative countries including

america so if your metric is just use satisfaction surveys they're bs so our satisfaction is bullshit or not because you told me do you acknowledge satisfaction surveys or not you just told me that they're bs do you think they're objective we can use that as data i don't think that it is the only sole data set but it is you told me they're so flawed and you self-report okay by by the macro self self-satisfaction data I am correct and you are right when you have paid family leave you are happier I'm actually a proponent of that at Turning Point USA we pay for six months when somebody has a child I think there's a lot of agreement we can have on that we need to encourage having more children I think the Hungarian child

policy is phenomenal we should look at that because the greatest thing that is plaguing the west is we're not having enough kids and it's not just bad because we won't have a future it's also bad because the present is awfully miserable for too many women as well okay in which case i think we get do i start bringing this to a close please okay i think just one final thing which is in which case we get to a really interesting argument about what kind of what parts of womanhood can be demarcated to the social and what kinds of women who can be demarcated to biological so for example my anatomy is demarcated to the biological but the fact that i might potentially be a better nurturer than a man i would demarcate that biological. So for example, my anatomy is demarcated to the biological, but the fact that I might potentially be a better nurturer than a man, I would demarcate that to the social. You might demarcate that to the biological, in which case we have differing

moral scales of value. I would ask why we should necessarily prioritize your moral scale of value, which prioritizes things like the birth rate, when in actual fact, there are various other moral scales of value. And if you yourself are a free market American, why is it the case that you would not, like the previous speaker noted, extend personal freedoms towards all spheres, including a private sphere? I believe in absolute truth claims. And it's absolutely wrong and bad when a society stops having kids to replace their own population. And then you have to import the third world and you become the third world. It's bad. I disagree, but thank you. Okay, thank you.

You know, one of the biggest lies being sold to American people right now is that you're in control of your money, especially when it comes to crypto. But the truth, most of these so-called crypto platforms are just banks in disguise, fully capable of freezing your assets the moment some bureaucrat makes a phone call. That is not what Bitcoin was built for. That's why I use Bitcoin.com. I just did a major transaction on it. They offer a self-custodial wallet, which means you hold the keys. You control your assets. No one can touch your crypto, not the IRS or not a rogue bank, not some three-letter agency that thinks it knows better than you do. This is how it was intended by the original creators of Bitcoin, peer-to-peer money,

free from centralized control, free from surveillance, and free from arbitrary seizure. So if you're serious about financial sovereignty, go to Bitcoin.com, set up your wallet, take back control, because if you don't hold the keys, you don't own your money. Bitcoin.com. Freedom starts here. Thank you. And the final question that we've got time for today is from Sammy McDonald from St. John's College. Good evening, Mr. Kirk. You've obviously devoted a lot of your life to electing, keeping in power Donald Trump. And you did so partly because you said Trump would put Americans first and take them out of foreign conflicts. Shall we see how that is going at the moment? Currently, Trump has just accepted a $400 million debt from Qatar,

which we're assured is perfectly above board. Billions in arms are going to Saudi Arabia, which they're using to bomb and starve Yemeni children. Not sure how that's in the interest of the United States, but it might be in the interest of the $5.5 billion deal his failed sons are receiving. At the same time, this great president of peace has greenlit mass killings not just in Yemen, but in Gaza, where he greenlit an invasion

called Operation Gideon's Chariot, with the express aim of wiping out the Gazan population. You promised to put America first. Haven't you and your ilk sold America out? No. Well, I'm glad you have great intellectual substance and can answer. Because it's all the culture wars for you, isn't it? The second someone actually tells you what you're doing, which is bread and circus. Can you calm down a little bit? Like, just a little bit. Pounding the table, you're all it the second someone actually tells you what you're doing would you just can you calm down a little bit like just a little bit pound in the table you're all over the place uh no

you want me to go piece by piece or would you like me to talk slower i think you can number one donald trump is convening a peace deal between russia and ukraine joe biden gave the armaments well isn't it can you not interrupt me i allowed you to talk uninterrupted you're famous for not interrupting yeah i haven't interrupted a single person here today can allowed you to talk uninterrupted. You're famous for not interrupting. Yeah, I haven't interrupted a single person here today. Can I speak uninterrupted, actually? He is convening a peace deal between Russia and Ukraine. I believe we will see an end to that war.

Number two, he's actually talking to Iran and discouraging Israel to strike the interior of Iran and has stopped many other international countries to do the same. Number three, can you give him credit for ending the Indian-Pakistan war? Both of them said he didn't do that. Well, hold on a second. Let's go back. No, no, no. Russia-Ukraine.

Hold on, that's important. Can I speak now? Yes, but the Indian-Pakistan thing, you've got to go deeper than that. Let's go in order. Is a peace summit where the main person in question, Russia, doesn't show up, is that a success, Mr. Kirk? I'm not even sure. Is that a success? Well, again, these are ongoing negotiations,

and it's a lot better than when your Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, went alongside our Secretary of State, Tony Blinken, to Istanbul and unnecessarily blew up a potential Russian peace deal, which has resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainians, one of the great unnecessary wars of the modern era. Donald Trump believes in conversation and police boot through strength. He has been president for well over 120 to 130 days, and he has already ended a war between two nuclear conflicts of India-Pakistan. He has secured our own U.S. southern border while we were being invaded by foreign powers. And thirdly,

he is brokering a potential settlement with Iran that will prevent a major escalation in the Middle East. And finally, it is very difficult, but I believe they'll get it done, that we'll finally see an end to the Russian-Ukrainian war. I'm just going to disregard the enormous lies you just put out there

about Russia and Ukraine. But do you really think leverage, negotiations work if you cut off all your leverage and scream at one party in the Oval Office? Don't you think that has just emboldened Russia? Because look at the approach. Putin thinks so much of your glorious president, he can't even be asked to show up. You have elected or helped elect somebody who is at best an idiot

and at worst is deeply corrupt. Okay, again, so Trump and Putin had a two-hour phone call today. You'll acknowledge that's a good thing. The pursuit of peace can sometimes be a winding road, and it's a lot better than sending hundreds of billions of dollars further into the killing fields of eastern Ukraine, something that tragically both the UK government and the US government has been unnecessarily supporting for a couple of years.

President Trump wants to see a brokerage, an ending of this settlement. I pray we can get it. It's very complicated because of the mess that Joe Biden left, which was an active kinetic war with a nuclear power sending American-made missiles into the interior of Russia. So President Trump has already ended a war. He's ended an invasion. He's only 130 days into this. And I believe, we do not know, at this point we are merely speculating, which I think we should not spend our time doing that because eventually one of us will be right I believe we'll be right and I believe we'll see an end to this war we just talk about 100 billions worth of weapons because you dodged my question on what was going on in the middle east where trump has just sent signed enormous arms contracts with saudi arabia and with qatar and you I noticed

you ignored the fact that this might have had anything to do with the blatant corruption going on through the Trump coin and going on through giving the very competent sons of Donald Trump billions of investment from Saudi Arabia and Qatar. This is something that is directly embroiling Americans into conflict, but is importantly killing many innocent people. Those nations have been known to terrorize innocent civilian populations. So if you're coming to me and you're objecting to America selling weaponry, why are you defending shilling for the Saudis? Well, hold on. One is sending weaponry. One is purchasing. Secondly, you do know that the biggest purchase that was announced was commercial airliners, 737, $100 billion. We've heard of Qatar Airways. They purchased $100 billion of commercial airways.

You are right. There were some weapons contracts. But I the question is would you rather have saudi arabia buy weapons from america or china i'd rather they not have american weaponry at cut price right i disagree let's talk about for a second okay fine you mentioned qatar um you've been talking a lot about hamas uh and the evils of mass can i ask you who's the main funder of hamas well um the palace state. Well, the West actually funds Hamas. Which state? Well, Iran funds... No, no, no. Where are the Hamas leaders?

And also Qatar funds Hamas. It is a combination of international relief organizations. We should have a 400 million jet with the President of the United States on it. Hold on. First of all, it was not given to him personally. I understand the optics of it. But it was not given to him personally. It was given to the u.s government and under that standard no u.s government should ever receive any gifts from any foreign operant countries whatsoever it's not given to him personally

and not a violation of why is he trying to transfer it to his personal he's libraries he's actually okay again he's sent out lying this is way too in the weeds if you want to keep on going it we can he actually it's a moral principle okay so under that fundamental moral principle then can you acknowledge though that president trump is getting more done in a less period of time than any president we've seen while our prior president was not did not even know what year he got elected you understand the contrast what about again i'm not a defender no i'm not saying president trump is far better i have to defend the person you spent millions to write. I am. I will defend every day of someone who ends in

invasion, who brings down the price of oil, who is revitalizing the American economy, who is brokering peace, who stopped the potential nuclear war, who is bringing Iran to the table and bringing Russia to the table, someone who does not want armed conflicts with the greatest powers of our time. I will defend that

endlessly. What are you defending? You are living in a fantasy world of your own creation. So it's quite hard want armed conflicts with the greatest powers of our time i will defend that endlessly while living in a fantasy world of your own creation so it's quite hard you can say that but then disprove it let's check on how trump is doing in terms of diplomacy look with the war in the middle east do you think it was a defensible decision to tell the israelis you wanted trump gaza to agree for israel to invade the gaza strip and to continue to murder thousands of innocent children and civilians in a pointless war. Is that in America's interest? Is that in humanity's interest? Well, first of all, you should know something about Trump. There's something he's realized with Trump over the last 10 years.

He is quite the social media user and uses hyperbolic language at times. But let me ask you, in the conflict of israel versus hamas who's the good guy i believe both hamas and the israeli government are evil but i think also that there is no justification are they equally there is no justification for the murder and mutilation of thousands of innocent people and children but let's a few times there is no justification mr for. Perth, for invading hospitals, for bombing innocent populations, and dragging out a war which is damaging Israel and the West. You've made that point, but it's not a point, it's a moral truth, isn't it?

It was also a moral truth that the war started because 1,300 Jews were killed and 200 were taken hostage. And when you declare war on Israel, expect a firestorm in reaction. Let me finish, I let you talk. Israel, at its holiest day of the calendar year besides Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, Samat Torah, the 50-year anniversary of the Six-Day War. On Shabbat, Hamas invaded Israel, deciding to go recklessly to music concerts, to homes, to kibbutzes, and taking 200-plus hostages. They knew what they were doing.

In one of the most cloistered urban environments on the planet, 2 million people live in a place where it's impossible to wage war. Impossible. Where they wear civilian clothing, they violate every tenet of the Geneva Convention, and the IDF, when they do something right, they get no credit. When they do life-saving surgeries of a Gazan child, they get no credit. When they drive leaflets, drop leaflets, they get no credit. But when they happen to bomb a place where they are operating their military from,

which we now know from third-party verified sources, hundreds of Hamas military operations are in mosques, schools, and hospitals. I'm sorry, the country that where they were living in relative peace on October 6th, that all of a sudden we had a war and Hamas started the war. And I don't see people that were really upset about the 2 million Germans that were killed in World War II, civilians. A tragic truth of war is that civilians die. I don't like it and you don't like it. And they brought it upon themselves. The only operation at NTG to blame is the leadership of Hamas, not the Israeli government, for fighting this defensive war after they were invaded. I'm no defender of the terrible pogrom that was launched against Jews on that day,

but the justification for the death of innocents cannot be an infinite cycle of bloodlust. It cannot be killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians with a war with no end in sight, people who were not complicit in those atrocities. It cannot be bombing hospitals which children use. It cannot be bombing hospitals in which cancer patients are dying and starving in there. The deaths that have been inflicted, nobody knows the true toll, but somewhere between 50 and 100,000 people lie dead under the rubble. And what is left for Gaza except for to continue to suffer under Hamas? Because it turns out Netanyahu's political strategy has not worked. It has entrenched Hamas within the territories.

To be a Christian, I would have thought, Mr. Kirk, would never have involved suggesting that the price for an atrocity must be an infinite cycle of bloodlust, that innocent people and the young population must be killed to avenge some kind of providential quest. How can you call yourself a Christian? I want to make sure we get our moral clarity straight before we proceed. No one likes what's happening in Gaza.

No one with a heart or a soul or a mind likes when kids die. But you must understand who started the conflict so that you could end it correctly. And until Hamas brokers an unconditional surrender, of which they are unwilling to do, they could release the hostages and drop their weapons and their lives would be spared instead they are using children of gaza as cannon fodder financed by the iranian mullahs and dragging the entire world into this this conflict so i don't even know what we're debating at this point other than i believe that israel i believe the facts israel was unconditionally attacked on october 7. They're responding in kind. And I would just ask you a very simple moral question. How should Israel have responded?

Not with the blanket carpet bombing of the city, not with bombing hospitals. Of course, some kind of military operation might have been necessary, but not murder on this scale. There is no justification for what is happening with the enormous death toll that is being produced. I really cannot see how you come here and you have the gall to lecture us on christian morality and then sit here and justify the murder of thousands of civilians is it working i've never said that you just did well no this is your this is in war these are called casualties of a war we're going to stop bringing this again to the house. I'm not going to justify every military maneuver of a

100,000 person army. Instead, what I will do is I'll be clear that there is a good guy and there is a bad guy. I honestly... It's not the morality of a child. Well, hold on. It's interesting you say that. Because a child

who knows that Israel is the good guy, Hamas is bad, has a lot more wisdom than a student like yourself at Cambridge University. I will be glad that I will not have been somebody who has defended the genocide of the Palestinian people. And I think you will have to reckon one day that you have reckoned with mass killings. Interesting. I want to close on this. So can you tell me what African countries currently are ongoing a civil war? Believe it or not, I know about Sudan.

Okay, good. I'm not an idiot. How about what South Eastern Asian country has an ethnic cleansing going on right now? I know. Good. And you have strong opinions on both sides? Unlike you, I take an effort to be informed about foreign policy and to come to conclusions.

You are a culture warrior. I believe when everything is done, Mr. Kirk, people will see you and the people you've supported as corrupt, as selling the country out to the lowest bidder and as doing irreparable damage to a country, I'm sure, we all deep down love. The difference is when we get our way, we'll still have a country, and your country will be a third-world hellhole.

Next question. Thank you. That's all we've got time for today. Mr. Kirk has another engagement, so we're going to walk out of the chamber. Any questions with the students or no? I'm fine with what you want. No, I think this is all we've got time for today.

You guys are easy. Okay, we'll take a couple more. Does anyone have any questions? Who's the best? Over there. APPLAUSE Thank you. A very, very short question. Israel versus Hamas.

Good guy versus bad guy. Russia versus Ukraine. Who's the good guy and who's the bad guy? Both are bad, one is worse. Which way around? Russia is worse than Ukraine. Okay, so why haven't we pursued that? What do you mean? Well, it seems to me that in the whole of the current US proposition, that Ukraine is being the bad guy. In what way? We funded Ukraine upwards to $200 billion. Absolutely, but... We just signed a mineral deal with Ukraine, not Russia.

You are expecting Ukraine to give up 20% of its territory to someone who invaded it? Well, is Crimea part of Russia or Ukraine? Ukraine. That's where we don't agree well i'm afraid that's part of international treaty that's not up for grabs well it's interesting i mean even zelensky has said he's willing to give up Ukraine. No, no, no. America signed the agreement that gave Ukraine Crimea.

Right. When the Soviet Union ended. Right. It was done. First of all, it never should have been done. It was largely ceremonial. However, it was annexed under Obama. Yes, and it was a mistake.

And it should be given back to Russia as a sign of good gesture to end this conflict who's currently controlling crimea where was the russian navy headquartered in world war ii where was the the end of world war ii this is very important that i'm not doubting that i'm just saying that if we're being logical on what has happened that you are now arguing against that flow. And I don't understand it. Because actually, why is Ukraine the bad guy? No, I said they're bad. They're not the bad guy.

Yeah, well, you said they were both bad, but one was more bad. Correct, yes. So why is Ukraine bad? Well, there's a lot wrong with Ukraine. First of all, they're not a democracy. Zelensky refuses to hold an election. Well, no, he can't hold an election. Oh, wait did churchill hold an election during the war because under his constitution hold on lincoln held election during the war he can that's not true he can call an election he can call a snap election he's full dictator of the country

because he knows that the people of ukraine would kick him out immediately because he's deeply unpopular in fact if he wanted to show a statement to the world he would call an election and win by 80 and say see I'm super popular. So that's number one. I have a problem with that. I have a problem with a person being propped up as a government we're sending $200 billion to that refuses even to face his voters. I can't agree with you factually on that at all. Constitutionally, Ukraine is not able to hold an election because it's under military law at the moment. And that's just a matter of time.

Again, he can, as a prime minister or president, he can do whatever he wants. He can't. He can't sign an executive order and change their constitution. Neither can the American president either. So hopefully there's a bit of a problem. He could even do

a ceremonial election to see where he actually stands with the people. I think we call those opinion polls. Yes, and they're very negative. Firmly ahead in the opinion polls. Again, but you would agree that a person that holds on to power without the election of the sovereign is pretty questionable? No, not in those circumstances. Okay, then we disagree.

No, okay, that's fine. But give me another reason why you... They are the most corrupt country in Europe that never even met the most remote standards of joining NATO. Do you not know where a lot of this money is going? I don't disagree that there is a problem with corruption, but the most corrupt country in Europe, are you sure about that? I'd have to double or triple think about that,

but they're very corrupt. Okay, so that's a little bit doubtful. It's not absolute. There's a little bit of doubt. That's not absolute. There's plenty of corruption around. Let's face it, we are talking about comparison with some of the states you're doing business with in the Gulf.

Of course, but we're not giving them money, they're giving us money. That's the difference, right? Oh, so it's fine. It's morally acceptable to take money from corrupt people. Hold on, first of all, as far as morally acceptable, you do what's best in the benefit of your country. And so, for example, we were allied with Russia during the Second World War, and I'm glad we were. And I would ask you, how much money is too much money to send to Ukraine?

We're at $200 billion right now. I don't think you have to send any more money to Ukraine. We agree. to send to Ukraine. We're at 200 billion right now. I don't think you have to send any more money to Ukraine. I think you have to agree to support them as a free country and perhaps sell them weapons. I know you're very happy to sell weapons to less free countries. And I think Europe will pick up the slack as we ought to. And I don't disagree with

some of the comments about Europe not looking after its own security. I just don't get this approach which was supposedly to end the war quickly, which now seems to be elongating it. And in doing so, it's throwing up a smokescreen of very variable facts, if they are facts at all, about how things occurred, which actually isn't helping things. And if people can't see that Putin's stalling, I'm just... I agree with you. I think he might be stalling. And therefore, and I think even your president has acknowledged

the fact that he thinks he might be stalling. That's correct. So we don't have a disagreement there. No, we don't. We just have a disagreement about the efficacy of tactics. And we don't know. And I'm willing to say we could be wrong. No. Oh, well... Of course you could be wrong in life. We could all be wrong.

But actually bringing that war to an end consistently actually isn't going very well and I would just suggest to you that whatever tactics have been used are perhaps not the best and they are certainly inconsistent with what's going on in the Middle East and how America has been treating on in the Middle East and how America has been treating parties in the Middle East. But I've had enough of your time. No, that's a fair contention. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us, as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening, and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.