The Charlie Kirk Show - "Should Women Be Pastors?" and Other Questions On the State of the Church

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Why are "conservative" religious leaders so afraid to speak against the biggest drivers of sin in modern life? What share of churches are "true" churches? Why do some Christians want to be "nicer than God?" And by the way, should women be pastors in Christian churches? Allie Beth Stuckey has become one of the most important voices in the modern American church. At YWLS, Charlie and Allie talk about the state of the church, as well as parenting, Charlie's toughest debate ever, his favorite health wisdom, and more. Watch every episode ad-free on members.charliekirk.com!  Get new merch at charliekirkstore.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio. Allie Bistocki and I, we discussed the state of the church, whether or not women should be pastors, ooh, you're going to want to listen to this, and more. Allie Bistocki is one of my favorite voices in the Christian space, especially from a female perspective. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Subscribe to our podcast, that's the Charlie Kirk Show podcast page, and become a member today, members.charliekirk.com. That is members.charlie our podcast. That's the Charlie Kirk show podcast page and become a member today. Members dot Charlie Kirk dot com. That is members dot Charlie Kirk dot com. Get involved with Turning Point USA today at TP USA dot com. That is TP USA dot com. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the

college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks. I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble Gold Investments at noblegoldinvestments.com.

That is noblegoldinvestments.com. It's where I buy all of my gold. Go to noblegoldinvestments.com. I drink coffee with no caffeine. So you drink decaf coffee with almond milk? No, not even decaf, like purified coffee. Well, I don't know what this is. This is like, literally they like cleanse the beans. There's no caffeine. Okay, so this is for the why? Well, caffeine, like it's a crazy thing. I used to drink so much caffeine and I would get like very, very jittery.

Yeah. So then I just cut it all off. But I love the taste of coffee. Okay, that's what I was going to ask. You just like the taste of it. And it's good for your antioxidants too. Okay, wow. It works for me. Respect. No caffeine ever. Not even Diet Coke. No, but like I literally, no Diet Coke ever. No, no, no. Yeah. Diet Coke's not good for you. I like tea though.

Does the president know that you know this? I have been impressed by his Diet Coke consumption. Okay. It's amazing. Wow. It makes him younger. Yeah, I guess so. There's got to be something in it. There's something. The youth elixir. How are your kids? They're all good. Gosh, they grow so fast. Have you realized that? You don't do faces on social, right?

Nope, I don't do anything on social. Do you do names? Ages? People know ages because they've been following me since. Yes. I got that from you just by the way. Oh, really? So tell me, why do you do that?

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's so many weirdos and there are so many things nowadays that you can do with a child's image that you can do with information about a child. And I just wanted as little info about them in the world as possible. So people know I have three girls. They know about their ages and that's it. Three girls. Amazing. It's super fun.

Yeah. So we, uh, we have a girl and a boy. Yes. And, uh, it's no one's business who their names are, what their names are. that's it. Three girls. Amazing. I know. It's super fun. Yeah. So we have a girl and a boy. Yes. And it's no one's business who their names are, what their names are, right? Yeah. Or their faces. Yeah. Can you already tell the difference between little boys and little girls? Obviously we already knew, but just in them. No, I mean, it's like, it's so funny. I said to Erica the other day, I said, anybody who does not believe in male-female differences obviously has not been a parent. I mean, like, it's just, this is, these are the childless clinicians that are running the academy.

Yeah. Just like a very simple thing is that our daughter always would gravitate to, it still does, gravitate towards like makeup, dresses, you know, organizing, helping clean. Yeah. Where my son, he gravitates towards destruction. Yes. Uh, and, um, trying to get himself injured and getting hurt. Yes. Yeah. No, no. It's the, the amount, the incident rate of pediatrician calls of son versus daughter is like 10 to one. And he's only held. No, he's just turned one. Oh yes. And he's an early walker

at 10 months. Okay. And he, he will find a baseball bat and try to, to like terrorize his sister already on the head. I was like, I didn't teach him that. Right. But no, but other things, he's very gravitated towards balls. He cannot sit like my daughter will sit still and color, you know, with a lot of dexterity, right? Read a book, not with him. It's constant movement, constant activity, constant stimulation. And this is nature. This is how God made them. Yeah. It's not nurture. I have a lot of nephews. So I can see, I can see the contrast whenever my nephews, I'm like, it's so loud and it's so rambunctious. And there are things flying across my face. There's so much happening.

And I forget when I have my three little girls who love princesses and drawing and imagining things and building, you know, forts that turn into homes. And everything turns into a baby. Everything. It can be a fork. It can be a bottle. Everything is a baby. I forget that. I love boys.

And maybe one day that we'll have a son too. But, yeah, just so different. We're blessed with both. And the contrast is beautiful. I mean, look, if we had two girls, it'd be amazing to like, whatever the Lord, you know, uh, gives us is just, you know, something, but it's really, it's really remarkable to see how my, my daughter being the older already is, has like maternal, like instincts towards her brother. And it's just- Takes care of him. Exactly.

And looks after him. So sweet. Right? And seeing siblings like love each other, even if they do beat each other up one second, the next second, they're best friends. That's really fun. I think it's the closest thing we can see towards

how God is pleased when we get along. Yeah, that's a really good point. The closest thing that we can get to. Because we don't want to see our kids fight. I think it's similar to how point. The closest thing that we can get to because we don't want to see our kids fight. I think it's similar to how God looks at us when we're fighting. I mean, parenting just teaches you so much about how God sees you and what he wants for you. So, and that's just another reason why people should have more kids because it aids your sanctification so much. Talk more about that. Well, it aids your sanctification in the same

way that marriage does in that you are now sharing your interests and your priorities with another person. You are now learning how to get along with other sinners who have their own desires and their own struggles and the things that they have to sacrifice. And so it just causes you to move outside of yourself. It causes you and really demands that you deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Christ. And just the energy that is expended on children, especially if you don't drink caffeine, like you, you need a lot of it. And it's got to come from the Holy Spirit or else you're going to be overstimulated by the end.

I will just say this now being caffeine abstinent. It's actually very overrated. Meaning you don't Erica caffeine. She'll have a little bit of like English breakfast tea. Oh yeah. That's nothing. But it like, it doesn't give you energy. It just suppresses your production of adenosine, right? It doesn't give you it. So have you done a podcast on this? This is interesting. I have a whole health theory on this and Malha can disagree. But do you know the one thing that does give you energy? Hydration. Oh. If you drink a ton of water. Malha disagrees with that? No, no, no. I'm just saying that. I'm just saying I wish we would talk about it more. Oh yeah. I just think like there's a lot on vaccines and raw milk and heavy metals. But like the, there's a couple. I haven't heard this. My whole health worldview is the

simple things are actually the best. You don't need like to buy a cold plunge, you know, like that stuff's fine. The two superpowers that I have is I'm a big on sleep and big on drinking water. Wow. Pretty simple. Right. And I think sleep is like the superpower that we don't have. Okay. I'm curious. How do you prioritize sleep with your travel schedule and everything you have to do? Very hard. First of all, Erica is a champ. She'll, she's the one that gets up at night. Yeah. Right. She just lets me sleep. Um, no alcohol helps a lot with sleep actually. And so that's really important. But also, um, I'm really hawkish about turning off the phone at a certain time. Cause then you just start melatonin production. And, um, if you commit to fall,

if you want to fall asleep and you like make it a priority, you could do it. And so it's like, I just go to bed early. Like I don't watch evening TV at all. I go to bed at like nine and then, okay. If you wake up at five 30, you're not, you're rested enough. Yeah. Right. So you just shut it off, shut it off. And then the other key is I, um, I started doing this a while ago and it's worked. It's eye mask. Oh, really? I've tried that. It's just like, if you get, if you get used to the sensation, it's so good because if you learn the science of it, darkness makes your body produce melatonin. Yeah. So you are like, you are, you're suffocating your eyes and darkness that the melatonin rate that you're producing is like through the roof. Okay. I didn't know that either.

Learning so much from Maha Charlie. Maha. Yeah, that's right. And again, as Erica deserves all the credit because, and look, you know what it's like, you know, raising kids, have to produce content, travel. Yeah. I don't do well in three hours of sleep. That's not.

No, I don't know very many people that do. I guess some people do. The president. Yeah, I guess. Does he only get three hours? He gets three to four hours. And I can, I can say that from firsthand experience and also his sons and Ivanka has told me there is a very, and one day we will, we will know, we will test the golden hair, which is that there is a, there is a well-known documented genetic

mutation of like one in a hundred thousand people that people that dish, they just don't need more than like an hour and a half of sleep. And I think he has, I think he has that. Like there are, of like one in a hundred thousand people that people that just, they just don't need more than like an hour and a half of sleep. And I think he has that. Like there are, it exists. It's real because sleep actually is just the brain cleaning itself. There's like, there's some physical, you know, benefits, but like some brains just don't need it. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I guess. Not me. Yeah, not me either. Hey, everyone. Charlie Kirk here. You worked hard, raised your family, paid your taxes and followed the rules. And now you're watching the country you love being torn apart by the radical left. You're asking, what can I do? Well, you're not alone and you're not powerless.

President Trump is back in the White House and he's taking bold action, fixing trade with tariffs that actually help American workers, cutting government waste and standing up for Christian values. But he can't win this fight without you. That's why I want you to join AMAC, the organization for patriotic Americans over 50 who still believe in America. AMAC stands for your values, freedom, faith, and fiscal sanity, and it's just $16 a year. You'll get a subscription to the AMAC magazine, access to exclusive money-saving discounts, and most importantly, you'll be part of something bigger than yourself. Go to amac.us slash charlie, that is A-M-A-C dot U-S slash charlie, and join the fight to save this country. Let's do this together. I hear from young ladies on campus all the time,

Charlie, I don't want to get married because I want to prioritize my sleep. I don't want kids, and I'm the most important thing in the world. And so you're like one of the most important, I have to compliment you, female voices out there in Christianity. I know how to speak to young men, sort of young women, not really, but like how do I even respond to the me, me, me, selfish narcissism that I encounter so much? I think that I would probably ask that person, are you happy?

Because most people who say, I prioritize me, I want to put myself first, I want to do what feels good, those people typically aren't happy. Those people typically really struggle with deep depression and anxiety and discontentment and poor relationships and toxic friendships and all of these problems, but they're constantly being fed a message that the problem isn't you. The problem is everything else. And once you get rid of all of these toxic factors in your life, and you truly find yourself, and discover yourself, and fulfill yourself, and put yourself first, then you'll kind of be liberated from your depression and anxiety. But as I've said a lot,

the self can't be both the problem and the solution. You're trying to solve the problem that you're finding inside yourself with yourself. And that's illogical and it's ineffective. It never works. So that's probably where I would start just talking to them about how they feel, which every girl likes to talk about that. That is true. I'm running this down. That's really smart. The self can't be both the problem and the solution. Yes. So we both know what the solution is. The solution is the cross. The solution is Christ. And so I find this manifested to the surface most quickly on the abortion argument. Because if I'm debating a man on abortion, it's actually very different.

He'll try to get me on like reason or scientific technicality, of which there is none. Yeah. But a young lady is how dare you tell me that I am in charge of my own dominion and I feel as if I should be. It's a very different type of line. And so is that really the root of why America's embraced abortion so much? Well, I do say, and I say this about a lot of issues, that we've exchanged the God of scripture for the God of self. And I argue that the God of self has two highest values, and those two high values are autonomy and authenticity.

Now, autonomy and authenticity, just like empathy, and we can get into this, can be good values when they are submitted to absolute truth. But when they're not, when they are your absolute values, they're justifications for sin. So autonomy becomes a justification for sin when you say, well, I control myself, I control my body, so much so that you're literally willing to sacrifice an unborn child on the altar of what you want, authenticity can become this bad value when you say, well, I want to be true to myself, so I'm going to allow my self-identity to trump physical reality or my biology. And so those two main values that the God of self hoists up as supreme authenticity and autonomy

are really used as justifications of all kinds of depravity. Totally. And so something you're really effective at, I don't know, I'm loud, I don't know how effective I am, is calling out the church and their failing of identifying this. What is the state in your estimation of the modern American Christian church? No, you're really good at talking about this. Loudly. I don't know, effectively. No, definitely effectively.

I mean, there are more people now that are effectively talking about it. I'm sure you've talked about Megan Basham. She's amazing. Yes. We should pray for her. I don't know how she's doing health-wise. Yes, she just finished chemotherapy. Okay, I hope it's a success. Yes, she's starting to feel better and better.

Praise the Lord. She's awesome. So absolutely pray. Yes. She's starting to feel better and better. So praise the Lord. Absolutely. Pray for her. Um, and just the spiritual battle that she is waging as well. I mean, she uncovers a lot of the funding behind these very insidious groups. I mean, you've got a group called J 29, you've got the after party and both of them are these institutions that say that they are theologically conservative. And their mottos are, let me help the American church reimagine politics. But the people who are involved in them, David French, Russell Moore, all of those people. We know them. Yes. And we're not confused about where they are politically. They hate Donald Trump. They

hate Republicans. They think that the left is definitely more biblical than the right. And so what these institutions are very sneakily doing, they're coming into the church and they're saying, Pastor, you're tired. You're tired of the division. You're tired of the stress of politics and the left-right division in your church. Let us help you unify your congregants. Let us walk you through how you can lead your congregation through the next election and these political issues. But how they're doing that is by saying, well, abortion is nuanced, so don't talk about it. Gender is really, you know, it can be offensive to the image bearers in your congregation,

so don't say that gender is binary. So they exist to try to make theologically conservative churches politically progressive. And I don't know how effective they are at doing that right now, but you could see how it'd be persuasive for the mushy middle. Yeah. So there's three types of churches. There's true churches, which is the type you and I go to and that we speak at. There's trembling churches, those that are always shaking like a leaf. Then there's traitorous. You and I both know the traitorous ones, gay pride flags, our neighbor churches. The trembling is the majority, unfortunately. Yes, totally.

And so, and so what, I would love your thoughts. Has it gotten better since COVID? Because we're talking about it more. Yeah, I think so. I think if COVID happened- I think you're right. I think 10% better. Yes. I think if COVID happened today, you would have fewer churches shut their doors- I think you're right. I think 10% better. Yes. I think if COVID happened today, you would have fewer churches shut their doors. I think that's right. Because I mean, you've got to have some people

who are willing to be first, who are willing to say, you know what? Y'all are going to call me all these kinds of names. I don't care what you call me. I'm going to stand up because this is right. That gives other people cover. We shouldn't be the kind of people who are so cowardly that we need that cover,

but we probably all have times in our lives when we have. So yes, now I think that churches are maybe a little bit bolder, but gosh, I still want more clarity from the pulpit, especially about the issues that they call political, but are really just primarily biblical. I even think there's a place for pastors to talk about the biblical principles of immigration. They don't have to, yes, they don't have to talk about the news every of immigration. They don't have to. Yes. They don't have to talk about the news every Sunday, but the Bible isn't silent on that subject. It's actually very loud on it. Yes. Talks about it a lot. And yes, it's not just loving the

foreigner, which we should, but also about biblical boundaries and borders. And there's two words for immigrant actually used in Hebrew. I think it's like care and there I could be wrong, but like there are two different words, those that assimilate and do not assimilate. So I have a provocative question for you. I know how you're going to answer, but you can talk about it more freely than I can. Should women be pastors? I don't think so. No, I don't think that women should be pastors. And I don't think that they should preach from the pulpit on Sunday mornings. Obviously, I don't believe that women shouldn't be Bible study leaders or that we shouldn't speak at all or that we shouldn't have podcasts. I think there are lots of wonderful places for women to speak and to teach. But it seems to me that when Paul says that women

shouldn't teach and he's talking about in the context of the local church, and then he goes all the way back to creation for his reasoning, he doesn't say, well, this is something that's happening in your local church culturally right now. It's probably not happening later. He says, actually, it's because Eve sinned first and then Adam. And so I don't know exactly what that means. I don't know everything that he means there. But if he's going back to something that is still true today, it seems like the directive is still for today, too. How is that your opinion received? You know, even on the conservative side, it's not necessarily received well.

Although I do have friends, we realize this is not a salvation issue, but we do disagree on it. But we'll get in our back and forth sometimes about that. So it's mixed. Yeah, it's mixed. And of course there are people on the left end, but I don't even think about what their opinion is.

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They're phenomenal. Bad credit is accepted. And if your private student loan debt is keeping you up at night and ruining your life, it doesn't have to. Just call YRefi. Go YRefi.com. YRefi does not care what your credit score is. Go to YRefi.com. Let's face it, if you have distressed or defaulted private student loans, nobody's coming to bail you out. Go to YRefi.com. Y-R-E-F-Y.com. Who is the greatest Bible teacher alive today? Oh, that's a great question. I think I know what you're going to say. Oh, yeah. I bet you know what I'm going to say. I was going to say John MacArthur. Yes. He's the man. Yeah. I was going to say that, but I mean, there's a lot of good ones. No, I know, but like he's a legend. Yeah. I mean, I could just listen to his sermons and yeah, there are a few people like that, that I could

listen to on repeat. Yeah. And so what, what made him so, and it's important, right? Cause we should articulate like, why is he a legend? Yeah. And how do we get more of this next generation to be in that mold? Unafraid. That's the thing I think of. Unafraid, totally undeterred by culture at all, does not care one bit what you call him. He wants to know what does the Bible say? And if the Bible says it, I'm going to say it and I'm not going to nuance it or apologize for it because most pastors, they would never say this, but a lot of Christians do think that they're nicer than God. And so they think they can out love, out mercy, out compassion God by not saying what God says.

Oh, let me just take God off the hook. Well, God doesn't need to be- I'm a better person than God. Oh, totally. And John MacArthur knows that that's not true. I also would use, I totally agree with that. So I've bought – Erica jokes. We get these packages delivered to our house. She says, enough because I buy so many books, right? I know. So does my husband.

He buys so many books. And I don't read them all. And that's what he's – but I have a – this is an important thing. I say it often in my podcast, but people, they don't listen to everything obviously. It is important that your children are raised in a home where books are around. Yes. They are displayed proudly and openly. And that at least they, even if they're like taking the books and they're throwing

and they're drawing on them, the kinetic memory that the parents value learning is a very important thing. I got this from Dennis Prager, which is that like my earliest memories, my parents would have books everywhere. And it's important that at least it's established that, hey, this is something that has been written for a reason and studied and authored. Anyway, so I have these huge books of John. I have a whole John MacArthur section. You do. I love that. And when you read these commentaries, so whenever I ever read a Bible verse, I'm like, I don't get it. I go to my John MacArthur commentary.

And I mean, I would say he is so deep in a way that most modern evangelical pastors are not so studied. Like, for example, there's a scripture that's very, very hard on its surface, which is like, you must hate your mother. It's very hard. But read the John MacArthur single. Okay. Well, you must understand the word hate in the Hebrew context is to choose between two, but not to have scorned towards another. Like, okay. And it's like, wow, thank you for that. And so, but then he goes into this like five page explanation, right? And do you think most modern evangelical like skinny jean wearing pastors are doing deep study? No, I think a lot of them are passing around each other's sermons. The chat GPT sermons. Well, yeah. And I think that they're taking,

not that we can't learn from other people, but I think a lot of sermons today are probably recycled. Repurposed. Yeah. And John MacArthur, also the interesting thing about him, for those who don't know, like he's in Southern California. It's not like he's in Kentucky. He's not in the Bible Belt. I mean, he's been warned against culture just by standing for what the Word of God says. You know, have you ever watched his debates between him and Gavin Newsom? Oh, I have to.

No, I haven't. Oh, yeah. On CNN. He used to go at it between Gavin Newsom. Back when Gavin Newsom pretended to be like a devout't. Oh, yeah. On CNN, he used to go at it between Gavin Newsom. Back when Gavin Newsom pretended to be like a devout Catholic, and he would say like, wait, don't you know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches on marriage? And he's like, well, I, you know, how Gavin Newsom is.

Slippery. You know exactly how it is. Oh, I know. But they used to go at it. And so, yeah, you should watch that. John MacArthur, I know he's not well, but he's still preaching. He passed the COVID test. Yeah, he did. And so many guys did not.

Yep. They stayed open. Why is that? And they defied Gavin. Why is it? I mean, I'm sure you think about this a lot. Why is that so many pastors tend to not finish well? That is a biblical constancy.

So many of these figures. Solomon didn't finish well. Finishing well is very, very rare. You know who comes to mind first in that? I mean, especially when we're talking about COVID, I just think of Andy Stanley and just the legacy of Charles Stanley, which stands so tall and is so amazing and how he is compromised, especially on the COVID thing. He said at Liberty Convocation in 2020, which he did virtually, maybe not in January, but that year he said, the Bible does not instruct the church to meet in person. And so that was his position. He pushed a lot of the Atlanta Christians in that direction. You know, it's funny. He texted me because I was attacking him relentlessly. We talked on the phone. Oh, really? Yeah. And I did.

I agreed. I was like, look, I'll lay off for a while. And I did. Cause I try to be a man of my word. And he was basically like, Hey, can you please stop talking about me? And I was like, yeah, I guess like fine. And you know, at least I, I, my opinion is like, I want to establish a diet. If people want to talk, I never want to be closed off to that. And I did promise him next time I was in Atlanta, I want to sit down with him. Cause I like, I know that sounds like cheap. I actually, I'm like infinitely curious how he says the stuff he says as a pastor, like, Oh, the old Testament, you know, we don't need that. Unhitch. Yeah. And he's really compromised on the LGBTQ issue. To me, that's the biggest one. And he's like, no, no, no, I'm not. Yeah. And it's like, okay. It's like, how is.

Yeah. It's interesting. He's never reached out to me and I have friends that. You got to go after him harder. I know. Well, yeah. Maybe if I had like Charlie Kirk level platform, he'd be like, oh. Trust me.

He has a whole war room that like listens to my stuff. Yeah. And so this will get to his. If you could tell one thing to him, because he's definitely going to listen to this. What would that be? You're not nicer than God. You don't need to apologize for Romans one. definitely going to listen to this, what would that be? You're not nicer than God. You don't need to apologize for Romans 1.

You don't need to apologize for 1 Corinthians 6. You don't need to apologize for the so-called clobbered passages. Let me tell you, it's not just about those one or two verses. He says that homosexuality is different than other sins. It's not different than other sins. Jesus died for homosexual sins just as much as he died for any other sins. Jesus died for homosexual sins just as much as he died for any other sins. This is what I say for people who say, well, the definition of marriage, you know, or, you know, sexuality is just about Leviticus. It's just about these verses. Here's the alliteration I use. I'll go through it quickly. I say the definition of marriage in the Bible, even if you took out all the negative

verses about homosexuality, it's rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself. It is representative of Christ in the church, and therefore it is reflective of the gospel. And I could go through all the biblical references to support all of those, and I have many times on my show, but it'll take a long time. Those five R's are how we have to remember why it is so important to get the definition of marriage right. Because when people start denying Genesis 127, they eventually deny John 14, 6, that Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, that no one comes to the Father except through him. I hope that doesn't happen to Andy Stanley, but he's compromised so much on this one

issue and I think has probably actually burdened a lot of people who struggle with same-sex attraction rather than freeing them with the truth of the gospel. First of all, that was so great. I wish you were with me in Cambridge. Oh, that was great, by the way. You did a great job. And in Jubilee too. I watched both of them. TikTok has helped U.S. businesses contribute over $24 billion for the U.S. economy. And we go so viral on TikTok, we get billions and billions of views. You see, that's real money flowing into small businesses like AZ Taco King, who went viral on TikTok and hit $1.3 million in sales in their first year. Now they're hiring more staff to keep up. Or Bluff Cakes, who started as a home baking side hustle and became a national cookie brand,

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to us getting the message out at TikTok. Go to tiktokeconomicimpact.com. The Cambridge one was, the Jubilee thing was hard, but it was the second hardest thing I've ever had to do. The Cambridge thing was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. Okay. Can you tell – you've probably already told people about it. No, I actually haven't very much on air. So I mean – so they're so deceitful, little snakes there, right?

So they're like, oh, let's go have a nice conversation at the Cambridge Union, right? Yeah. And so I had a feeling it was more than that because someone leaked an email to me that they were like, hey, come sign up to debate charlie kirk so they're advertising not a conversation no and so i was like okay this is a little weird as soon as i show up i could feel like in my spirit i was like okay the tension you think you're going in for like an interview i'm like this is the roman coliseum yeah that's what it looks like and so i'm walking in as like a gladiator. Yeah. And like, and I, and I, when I, not a single person applauded when I walked in. It's 400 people. Right.

Now remember, I'm in a foreign country. Yeah. I just got off a red eye flight. I didn't sleep. Right. I got two kids at home. Like, so you're a little bit, you know, just. Do you have any of your, like, is Andrew with you?

You got any of your people? I have Mikey and Blake and Blake's amazing. Blake is like the smartest person I know. Right. So. At least you have like someone. No. And so like, and I was like, guys, we have to, so we prepped the best we could. Right. So

I do this interview with this, it was a ridiculous interview for the head of the Cambridge president. And then she like throws me out into the center of the Coliseum. Right. And so they start bringing these people up and you know, it's very interesting. I thought I did very well keeping my calm and composure. Right. Cause it's like very easy to have an outburst like that. The audio, I didn't have a single person clap for me. Yeah. Right. And like, which is very different than your typical, or at least it's mixed, right? Like some booing, some cheering. So usually when I'm doing an event, I could at least like see somebody nodding along, like instead it's just like, and so you're, you're a little bit disoriented. That is hard. People who don't public speak, like it's really hard when you look out into the audience and it's blank stares.

And then they're applauding even the dumbest point that this person makes, right? They're like, yeah. You know? And so – but I was like – so I was very happy with how I kind of kept my calm and composure. Yeah. But I understand. So you have these like high IQ, low wisdom, you know, people at Cambridge and they have all week to prepare for what they're going to say. Right. And I don't know the topic. So they come up and it

could be anything, right? It could be abortion. It could be transgenderism. It could be Israel. Okay. So they've been preparing their best argument. They're like, okay, I'm going to formulate my best argument for Charlie Kirk. And he has no idea. I don't even know the topic. Yes. So I don't even know anything. And like on campus, I'm used to that, but like, this is, this is different, right? This was like, and it's fine about, I'm so glad I did it. Cause I'll go anywhere and I'll do that. And I hope it sets an example for other people. You shouldn't be afraid. But here I am, like I'm proclaiming the gospel and they're like mocking and snickering. Right. And like, and I'm like, you know, God is real. And they're like, just like literally laughing in the room. And again, I'm unmoved by

that. And so it, um, it went super viral and it was like a, it was what they call a Rorschach test. Right. Which is like the left is like, Oh, you know, Charlie is whatever. I was like, okay. And then the right was like, you know, really glad you hung in there. But overall the consensus overwhelming was like, Charlie, you did great. Well, there's no one else that could have done better. I don't know a better debater than you. And so I'm glad that you were the, I mean, I guess you weren't the first cause I think other people have done it as well. It wasn't that hostile. It wasn't the same. Okay. So this was the first format like that? Yes. Shapiro did it at Oxford. The one he he did Oxford was super hostile and we kind of flipped

so I did Oxford it was very chill and then he did Cambridge it was chill so it was like for whatever reason it was like inverted for us yeah but like it was like a 10 out of 10 hustle and like they'll come and they'll insult your appearances they'll it's like everything like everything's on this because they want you to try to have an outburst right wow and like they want to try to get you and so anyway I consider it a huge blessing to be able to do it. But now you're prepared for anything. Oh, no. Now it's like, okay, I'll go debate at Harvard.

Like I don't care. Yeah. Or Dartmouth. Yeah. Because I mean it was like there was an ambush met with like just the whole like configuration of the room and the acoustics. That room is from like 1820. So like there's all wood. So it just

all like when they applaud, it just got so loud. How long was it? Hour and 45 minutes. Pretty long. Yeah. No, that's, that's a long time to be kind of on your feet and you know, and I, and so here's the thing. So because we thought that like it would be a little bit nicer, I hosted my whole show right before that, you know? So I did like a whole show in London and I was like, okay. And then as I'm getting closer, I'm like, we should probably like prepare, you know, we were like somewhat, how do you prepare? You don't know what they're going to talk about. That's true. And so, um, anyway, with that being said, the one guy came up, he was like in the Bible, it doesn't say homosexuality is wrong. Can you repeat those five R's again? Yes. Okay. That was so well said. So even, yes, I remember the first time I talked about this on my podcast was probably

2018. And I don't know, I guess the Holy Spirit just helps me with this kind of alliteration. But because people always say, well, you don't have to care about what Leviticus says that a man lying with another man is an abomination because you don't follow, you know, you don't follow the rest of the laws or I don't know what they say about Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 and all of these other verses, but they just kind of say, well, we don't have to abide by those. But if you look at the positive definitions of sexuality and marriage in scripture, which is what we should look at, when we read the Bible, we don't just say, well, what should,

what can we get away with? We read the Bible asking, how can we obey God? Which means you don't just look at what does he say I shouldn't do, but what does he say is good, right, and holy? So rooted in creation. We see that in Genesis 1, 27, that God made us male and female, reiterated throughout scripture. For example, Exodus 20, 12, honor your father and mother. The Bible doesn't say parents. The Bible doesn't say spouses. The Bible says husband, wife, mother, father. Reiterated throughout scripture, that's the second one. Then repeated by Jesus himself. This is Matthew 19, four through five. And people say Jesus never talked about sexuality. He never

talked about these things. And we could get into like how terrible that is of a hermeneutic. But Jesus says, have you not read that in the beginning he made them male and female? I mean, that's as clear as it gets when Jesus is defining marriage and gender. And then representative of Christ in the church, that's the fourth R. That's exactly right. Yes. Ephesians 5, Paul says, this is a mystery, but I'm telling you that marriage here on earth, and I'm paraphrasing, represents Christ in the church. Just as the husband is the head of the wife, so is Christ the head of the church. And so that's not true of two men who are together. That's not true of two women who are together because it is the husband who represents Christ. It is the wife who represents the church. And so we read that the earthly

physical marriage of a man and a woman is representative of a spiritual and eternal reality of Christ's marriage to the church. And so in that way, it is reflective of the gospel. The Bible starts with a marriage. It ends with a marriage. And the gender designations are not arbitrary. So that is exactly why when someone compromises on that, they end up compromising the rest of their theology because it's so foundational. I will give you attribution, but you're going to hear that on a college campus near you. Okay, I'm ready.

That's so deep. Thanks. Before I have to let you go to go speak, why are so many young men especially joining the Catholic Church? Yeah, you know, I've seen this a lot. It's happening. It's real. I have seen this. I had someone ask me the other day why men are becoming more religious. And there is some... Okay. So there is some competing data, I will say, about whether Catholicism is growing or whether they're adding new people at the same rate that they're losing new people. Sure. At least anecdotally,

I know in right-wing circles, Catholicism has more momentum. Would you agree? Tradition. Tradition. Rigidity. The expectation of this is what I have to do, and this is what it looks like. And I'm not trying to, I mean, everyone knows I'm, you know, a Reformed Protestant. I talk a lot about Protestant theology, but I'm not trying to say this in some kind of like dismissive way, truly. There is something beautiful about that. And I think there is something that they feel grounded in when they can look back at the history of the Catholic Church and say, this has been done this way for X amount of years. Also, just the existence of the magisterium, that this is what the Bible means. This is the catechism.

This is how we interpret scripture. There's a lot of debate and discussion and differing interpretations within Protestantism, which I think is a feature, not a bug. Yes. But Catholics would say that that's actually a bad product of the Protestant Reformation. So I think that's what it is. Yeah, I think that's – I agree with all that. And I can tell you, the young men I talk to, they're joined a Catholic church.

They can't quite put it into words, but the kind of the theme is that everything around me is changing so rapidly. Yeah. And I want one thing that's not going to change. Yeah. And at least I could tell you, Allie, I am exhausted if I have to go to a church that looks like a Home Depot. I think there's actually something about a beautiful church that points up that is holy and that, you know. It. And right. Yeah. It's like,

it's not enough just to have a Sam's club with worship, you know, not to say that Jesus can't be present there. Yeah. But I do think that the old, even the, some of the old beautiful Protestant churches are something that we can take a page out of that. Our Lord deserves a holy place to sanctify. Now, of course, Jesus is in all of our hearts, but when I go to church, I want to feel as if I am pursuing the holy, right? And to look at the beautiful. And Catholics, you know, their churches are really beautiful, actually. A lot of them, you know, stained glass windows, you know, beautiful art. So I think that's part of it. I think the aesthetics also in

an increasingly ugly world has drawn people in, right? I mean, we just like to have this hyper modern ugly world where there's almost nothing pleasing to look at. And I think that that help explains part of it. Yeah. I think that those are all really good points. You got to go dash to go speak, plug your podcast so people can follow it. Yes. It's called Relatable. It's on Blaze TV, but you can listen or watch wherever you listen or watch your podcasts. My book, my latest book, Toxic Empathy, How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion. I really encourage you, especially if you're a woman, but really it's for anyone who finds yourself asking, but what do I say when my friend says this about immigration or abortion? Or when they say that in order to be a good person, I have to use someone's preferred

pronouns, whatever it is. This is the book for you. This book will equip you to have those conversations really effectively. Allie, you're excellent. Thank you for your courage. Thank you, Charlie. So many young women especially follow you. So thank you for being a godly and biblical role model.

Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.