The Charlie Kirk Show - The Legacy of Lindsey Graham + Who Is Alexander Dugin?

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

The preliminary hearing for Tyler Robinson is over, and the work of TPUSA continues. The show has the highlights from a superb Chapter Leadership Summit in D.C., including a speech from Erika and important insights about what young conservatives care most about. Graham Allen discusses the sudden death of Lindsey Graham and how it shakes up the Senate. Auron MacIntyre describes the philosophy of Russia's Alexander Dugin, who is winning acolytes in the West. Joshua Carr talks about the experience of being inside the courtroom at the Tyler Robinson hearing last week. Watch every episode ad-free on members.charliekirk.com!    Get new merch at charliekirkstore.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic. My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You've got to stop sending your kids to college. You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible. Go start a turning point USA college chapter. Go start a turning point you would say high school chapter.

Go find out how your church can get involved. Sign up and become an activist. I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade. Most important decision I ever made in my life and I encourage you to do the same. Here I am. Lord, use me. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go.

Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of, precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with noble gold investments at noble gold investments.com. That is noble gold investments.com. All right. Welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show. I'm Andrew Colvett. I'm in our nation's lovely capital. And Blake is holding it down in the Y ReFi Studios in Phoenix, Arizona. How we doing, Blake is mine. The Mike flag is mine once again. You know, it's eventually Daisy's going to figure this out and we're all going to be able to share multiple

mic flags. Until then, Blake's holding it down in the YRefi Studios. We had an amazing weekend in DC and what a blessing it was to Blake because obviously the week was super challenging. All you and I did was basically watch the preliminary hearing. We posted about on social. We covered it during this show or we watched it live on this show. And then we covered it at night. So thank you so much to all of you who tuned into that. Those episodes did monster numbers. So I know a lot of you were interested in hearing about it and bringing in Graham Allen and Brandon Tatum and Jack Posobic and all those who were in the courtroom along with all the experts that we brought in to help break it all down.

So in all, it was a really tough week. And, you know, Erica had, you know, we had planned CLS chapter leadership summit in D.C. a long, long time ago, and then the judge postponed the preliminary hearing. It was originally supposed to be in April, then it was in May, and then it got moved to this front part of July. So it just fell right in the middle of it. And actually, I said this to some people, Blake, it ended up being, I feel, like, providential timing because it gave us an opportunity, it gave Erica an opportunity to go

from what was a really challenging, emotional week, watching and reliving those details from that terrible day to then going to be around thousands of students in, Washington, D.C., getting to experience firsthand what Turning Point is building all across the country, chapter by chapter, and then getting to meet them, and then Blake and I had the opportunity to sit down for multiple roundtables with high school students, with college students all across the country to hear directly from them. And Blake and I, I'm sure, will get a chance to tell you more about that, but we'll be releasing that footage very soon. In the meantime, I want to play some of these clips, because they're excellent from Erica, who just gave such an amazing, amazing speech at CLS.

And by the way, just made us so proud. I'm sure she made Charlie so proud. SOT 5. You do the hard thing. You do the right thing. And that's what my husband did every single day. She's just really just hitting, you know, home run after home run in this thing. Let's go ahead, SOT 6.

husband built this movement. He built this machine. And I watched him do it. And I stood by his side through every sleepless night, through every moment of concern, through every phone call, through every high, through every low of the things he could control and the things he couldn't. I was there. I have seen my husband build this, and he has entrusted it to all of us. Blake, any thoughts as we go through these? No, I just think it really speaks to everything we're aiming to do here last week. We considered it incredibly important, of course, to cover the hearing, make sure everyone's following that.

But at the same time, the work does go on, and Charlie's work is not. being, we're not pursuing Charlie's work in a courtroom in Utah. We're pursuing it across the country with the young people, the high schoolers, the college kids, the young adults who are trying to transform this country, revitalize this country, change the course of this country, and bring about a faith revival. And you do that through the work of Turning Point USA, and one of the key ways we do that is through our chapters and through our events. And you put those things together and the chapter leadership summit, it was just tremendous. I had a tremendous time there, not just in those panels that you and I were doing, but when we

weren't doing those, I tried to just wander around the floor and talk to the different people. And I heard so many incredible testimonies. I talked to students who said, I got baptized after what happened to Charlie. I completely transformed my life. I met person after person with testimony like that. And I think it speaks immensely to Erica that she spent that whole exhausting week in Utah and immediately turned around, flew out to run and speak at this event because that is, that's what needs to get done. That's how the work is going to be continued in the years and we hope decades to come.

Blake, one of the things I was struck by was, there was a reporter there that I spoke to briefly, and his line to me was pretty profound. He said, I just love interacting with these students. They are so untouched by cynicism. They're so enthusiastic. And I'm telling you, everybody in this audience that maybe is looking at the chaos on social media or what's going on in Iran, and we're going to get into Lindsey Graham, maybe even some of the conspiracies around that story, which are, we're inevitable, let's be honest. But if you get distracted or you get discouraged, if you spend some time around some turning point students, it will give you hope like you wouldn't believe.

It is an absolute white pill, how dedicated they are. the way they speak about their faith, the way they speak about what Charlie meant to them, what turning point means to them. It is an absolute white pill. And I can't wait to get those panels out, Blake, because it was really fascinating. You get inside the mind of a Gen Zer. And by the way, some of these high school students that we talked to in that one panel, Blake, they're born in 2008, 2009. It was incredible. I had that thought. And they were the tail end of Gen Z. They were, yeah, they were born in 2008. So they have, they basically have no memory even of Barack Obama winning an election.

And you mentioned they're so upbeat, and that's so tremendous to me because I feel that nostalgia is such a big part of maggots, people who think, wow, America was winning so hard in the 80s, in the 90s, post 9-11, it went downhill. These are kids who never had the blessing to live through it where it just felt like America was firing on all cinders and cylinders. And for them to still be so upbeat, to believe so powerfully in what this country can do and how we can revitalize that. That's tremendous.

It's such a testament to Charlie. I want to make sure we play another one of these Erica clips because I think it really speaks to the dynamic we were going for. Let's play clip eight. This past week, I have seen something I'm still trying to unpack and put into words. And someone asked me, do you still want to go to the Chapter Leadership Summit? And I sat there and I thought, if you don't fight for what's right, I would much rather our country look like this room than the

inside of that courtroom. And that got a huge cheer afterwards, which was cut off there. But it really is that we want, we want this country to be all those kids in that room who believe in faith, who believe in America, who believe that whatever challenges there are, they can be overcome. And I just loved this event. You see so much youthful energy. You see so much optimism.

I found myself odd by the people who come out, who want to pursue Charlie's legacy. They are better people than I am, I can say. And for those who are just wondering, no, there's no adults at this event. It's just thousands of students. There's no nothing. It's just students doing training, getting together, meeting each. other, getting equipped to go back out and take their chapters to the next level. And it was over 2X the largest chapter leadership summit in Turning Point History. So lots to be grateful for

today. All right. So we have some polling that we did there, just getting their top issues in rank order. So it's kind of a, the graph is tricky. So the top is the most important. The bottom is the least important, right? So I guess relative confidence. So free speech was actually young people's at CLS biggest concern, which I think was interesting simply because they're, I think, being inundated with information and news stories like the UK is banning social media. They're being told what they can and can't look at. One of the things that emerged from our conversations, we asked a bunch of high school kids and college kids, what do you think about, you know, banning social media for young

people? And I think they were all basically against it, right? but they wanted to pursue other ways of how do you use it responsibly? How do we be taught to look at source information and things like that? But they acknowledge that there's a lot of slop and a lot of disinformation on social media, but they certainly don't want to be limited in their ability to use it. Am I addressing that correctly? Yeah, exactly.

And just to emphasize to people, so smaller number, it was all, they were asked to rank all of these issues in order, and it's sort of their average number. So free speech on average was around fourth, but rankings were all over the place, so that was enough for first place. I think it's reassuring. Number two here is right to life and abortion. Number two issue, I think, that speaks to the type of people who are getting, it speaks to the type of people who really get invested in politics,

that young people still care a lot about that issue, they still want to pursue it. And I know Charlie cared a lot about that. You care a lot, I care a lot, so I'm very glad to see that. The third issue, political violence, obviously that's all very personal to us. And I think that's exactly what all of them were thinking about when they decided where to place that. I would say one that continues to surprise me. AI never ranks very high on this. I think when we asked people at Amfest last year, it may literally have been dead last in terms of issues people were thinking about.

And here it's near dead last ahead of only the environment and legacy media. I'm not even sure what that means. And not surprisingly, it was basically in dead last there. So I find all of those numbers. It's confidence in legacy media. Yeah, confidence in legacy media. I guess maybe trying to rebuild confidence. That might be what it means.

But cost of living, only about in the middle. I wouldn't have been surprised if that was higher. So that's what stands out to me in this one. That's something that came up a lot in our conversations, actually, is how much these young kids were focused on the economy, affordability, housing. In conversation, they certainly seem to be fixated on it. And it really is how much is that tank of gas going to cost me to fill up my car? How much did that burrito I bought at lunch cost me?

That's the way that these kids are processing economics and affordability because they're not necessarily investing in equities yet. They're not ready to buy a home. They're not thinking about this. And by the way, all of the kids that we spoke to, every single last one of them are going to be voters in 2028. Most of them will be voters in 2026. So for the midterms. So when we talk about these issues, I think it's really helpful for the larger audience to understand and bring it home for them.

You know, it's literally, that's what they mentioned. A burrito should not cost 20 bucks. And they're right. A burrito shouldn't cost 20 bucks. But then you educate them on, you know, what it means to print money and to inflate the value. value of equities. Economic incumbents have the advantage when inflation strikes. So when you educate them on these things, they sort of pick it up and they go, yeah, you're right. You're right. Okay, that makes sense. We, you know, 29, 28 percent inflation over four years with Joe Biden, money

printing out the wazoo during COVID. All of these things make sense to them once you explain it to them. But sometimes you have to explain the basics before you get to right thinking and proper thinking. Danny points out something pretty smart, which is cost of living was only in the but he points out if they're in high school, even if they're in college, a lot of them, they still live at home. They might get subsidized by their parents. It's not quite real yet. It's when you get thrown into the pool on the deep end of adulthood that it really starts to stand

out to you. And then if we were doing this event for people who were 27, this might be all the way up at the top as a result. I think another thing worth flagging, foreign affairs, foreign policy in general, it's in the bottom third of the list. on average ranked almost 10th place. And national security is a bit higher, but you can link that to immigration, which it's right alongside. I think something we saw repeatedly was people do want a government that's very focused on America, on American issues, on domestic stuff.

A lot of them, when we had those panels, they said they were willing to trust President Trump's decision making on Iran, on foreign policy questions. but their ideal was still a government that is very clearly domestically focused in its orientation. And I think that this list bears that out. One of the things that's interesting is a lot of these kids are pretty radical on immigration, but to see it in the aggregate where the fact that it's not a top three issue, I think speaks to the fact that it is one of those issues when you have success with it. We close down the border and the illegal crossings that unfortunately people forget about it. It's just one of those things where if you fix a problem, it's almost hard to get credit for it because it's not in the headlines anymore.

So it falls off people's top list. Now, there is much more interest in when you start talking about H-1Bs, when you start talking about job prospects, when you start talking about legal immigration, the kids' ears perk up, and there is a lot of interest in that. But one observation that it's not higher simply because it's not a dramatic crisis. You're not seeing images of caravans crossing over the southern border anymore like we were seeing under Biden. And so it's falling down the priority list. And I just hope that we can translate that electorally and make sure that President Trump gets the proper credit for it. And the conservatives do.

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But first, Graham, you are living in South Carolina. You run for office in South Carolina. And obviously we lost Lindsey Graham. Were you named after Lindsey Graham? Not to my knowledge, no, no. I think you predate his political rise, maybe, Graham. Yeah, so tell us what are you hearing on the ground. Yeah, what are you hearing on the ground in South Carolina?

Well, the president just made a post that he recommended the governor McMaster's that Lindsey Graham's sister be the interim to serve out the end of their term. Look, it's pretty simple. This is going to be a three-week race. The filing period is July 21st through the 28th, and then the special election or special primary election will be August 11th. I mean, that's a three-week race. I mean, this is going to be, honestly, it's whoever gets the president's endorsement,

is who it's going to be. I've heard names float around Panavette, Ralph Norman, Nancy Mace. I've even heard former congressmen, former governors, things like that. Here's what I'll say, and this is a Graham Allen take, and this is one reason why me and the SCGOP don't always see eye to eye. I don't think that people that just got skull dragged in a statewide race should be given a consolation prize of a Senate seat. Senate seats do not come open often in South Carolina. I think that this is an opportunity for the

president to take a moment, Susie Wiles, James Blair, all of them to take a moment. The president gets to make a decision on who to put his endorsement behind without the concern of potentially ticking off the SCGOP because he's not, he is not putting together a presidential campaign. This is the first time in a long time that the president has a chance to make a selection based off who he thinks the best fighter will be. As we know, we have a whole new era of Democrat socialists that are making it through their primaries right now. We've got a whole new fight going on the hill in the House and in the Senate.

I think that this is an opportunity to take just a minute and, hey, I think it needs to be somebody younger. I don't think we need to put a 70-year-old person in the Senate. Senate seat, I think we need somebody that there's got to be. There's got to be somebody in the state of South Carolina that can be a fighter for the president and the American First Agenda, and there's got to be somebody that can be agile and adapt to the battles that are coming very soon to, to D.C. at the House floor and in the House and the Senate. That's my personal opinion. Yeah. I think that's right. I'm not opposed. I think Blake and I were talking before the show to

his sister. You know, for those who aren't aware, his sister was often featured in campaign ads. He adopted, so I guess they grew up in the back of a bar, like a house on the backside of a bar, or something like that in Central South Carolina. And both their parents died pretty young, and so Lindsey Graham adopted his then 13-year-old sister, and they were devoted to each other. And it was actually kind of a touching story. I had a touch. ton of political disagreements with Lindsay Graham. As a matter of fact, as soon as I got the news, I was like, man, I definitely tweeted some harsh things about Lindsay Graham in the last couple of months. And, you know, I, so, but whatever my disagreements were with the guy, it sounds like from

people's recounting of their interactions, their friendships with him, that he was amicable, that he was willing to let political disagreements not impact his friendship towards people. by the way, I heard a crazy stat. You know, the guy died with apparently a $1.2 million net worth, right? So this was not a guy that was enriching himself off of the war machine that he celebrated so much, right? And so for all his faults, you know, we want to say nice things about the dead. And I don't gloat or rejoice in his passing. There are several funny stories.

Al Franken, who was a colleague of his in the Senate, has repeatedly told. people, Lindsey Graham is the funniest person he knew in the Senate. Apparently at one point he met him in a bathroom or something and told him, hey, if I were a Republican, I'd vote for you in the presidential election. And he immediately replies, that's my problem. And he had a few fun stories like that. He was, you can see how he was such a formidable figure for a long time, despite a lot of critics, including Charlie here. We called him Lady Graham for a reason. He, often aggravated us, but he was funny, he was genial, he was a hard worker, and he didn't give up. And we're grateful for the times where that was to the benefit of this country.

We're all remembering how he fought very hard on the Brett Kavanaugh case. When it was looking bad, you don't remember that. It looked like that nomination might fail. And he stepped up and he absolutely destroyed those. incredibly bogus allegations against Kavanaugh, fought hard for him and had an amazing photo of him adjusting his tie while some liberal shrieked in the background. Yeah. So let's get into just his cause of death, though, all right? President Trump admitted that he was even confused about it because he had just been in Ukraine the day before visiting

a drone factory. He was scheduled to do Meet the Press on Sunday. This is President Trump reflecting on that. It's top four. President Trump, thank you for joining us, and my condolences to you. Well, thank you. He's a tough one to lose. He was great. He was unique in every way, actually. What makes it even stranger is that I got a call last night sometime at, you know, the early evening, maybe in the sevens.

And he called, and he said, we're all set for the Save America Act. He was pushing the Save America Act like crazy. He got back, said he just landed from Ukraine. but he wanted to pass the Save America Act. And I said, well, we're going to get it done, Lindsay. We're going to get it done. I'll see you like soon. We thought we might even meet today.

And then that was it. So Axios is reporting, a person who spoke with Graham shortly afterwards said that the senator complained that he was feeling unwell. When the person urged him to seek medical attention immediately, Graham said he would do it Sunday morning after his scheduled appearance on Meet the Press. Graham then joked, I can't die now. I still need to do the Russian saying. sanctions, get Iran sorted out, and do Israeli-Saudi normalization. He passed away several hours later.

The IRGC then posted a video, one of their Lego animation videos, depicting Lindsay Graham's sudden death, sort of claiming credit for it. I tend to be persuaded that this is not conspiratorial in nature. He was 71. It looks like he died of hardening of the arteries. And the most common cause of death, people don't know this, especially when you're over a certain age, when doing long international flights, is some sort of cardiac death, whether it's a heart attack or in this case, an aortic fissure or whatever. So, Blake, I see you wanting to chime in. Well, it's just, yeah, it's, if you look at his family history, his father died of, I believe, the exact same thing at the age of 69. You have the story here where if he'd, if he'd gone to the

hospital right away, they probably would have caught that this is. happening, rushed him into surgery. He might have survived, but he downplayed it, thought it's probably no big deal. And yet, aortic dissection. Aorta is the gigantic blood vessel running directly into your heart. Dissection coming apart. If that happens, you're going to die very quickly. And I understand it's tempting because a lot of people didn't like Senator Graham. A lot of people are grossly just celebrating his death. But in the end, it is a common thing. for men in their 70s to die abruptly of heart attacks, and I think that's likely the case here. Graham, I won't while we have you here, there was, you were in the courtroom, and I just, I know

this is a brief and kind of a pivot, but you saw the enhanced video, and much was made over the weekend on social media about this enhanced video of Tyler Robinson. I wanted to give you a chance before we lose you. I know you've got a busy day, just to chime in on that. What was it? It feels like it's a whole exercise in splitting hairs, but I wanted you give you a chance just to sort of set the record shape. What was in that video? What do you see and what can you not see? One minute. Yeah, well, again, to your point, it's semantics. There's a group of people that no matter what the evidence is, they do not believe that the person in that video was Tyler Robinson. I, based off the evidence I've seen, do believe that the person in that video is Tyler Robinson. And in that zoomed-in video,

like I said, you clearly see the individual whom I believe. leave to be Tyler Robinson, get on the roof, get in the prone position, the time stamps match exactly when we know Charlie was shot, person gets up, individual runs and jumps off the other side of the building, just like we've all seen. The zoomed in portion is the part that makes it so damning for Tyler Robinson because you see this individual get into that prone sniper position at the exact timestamps that we know Charlie was shot. That's what I saw. And you're right. We're splitting semantics on this.

There's a group that no matter what you show, they do not believe that was Tyler Robinson. I believe all the evidence points to Tyler Robinson. And I believe that with the DNA plus the testimonies, plus the confessions, all of this. And we haven't even got to his confession to the police. We haven't even got to his parents talking about it. I think it all paints a very clear picture. And, yeah, I think we have a lot of people that are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Yeah, that's well said.

So, I mean, we can leave it there, Graham, but I just appreciate you being just very matter of fact, very down, you know, just the facts here. We don't need to go further than what the facts are. But I think what it relates is that we need to see this stuff. The public should have access to it. So there's no discussion, no argument or about what's actually available when it comes to evidence. And so anyways, I'm glad that you got to see it and got to relate that to us. But Graham, I know you got a busy day. I'm going to let you go.

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Or you can call 888-317-9258. for up to 50% off. That's 888-317-9258 for up to 50% off your order and free shipping. All right. I just want to finish our discussion about Lindsay Graham here really quick. So why it's fascinating is the IRGC put out sort of some social media with targets around people's heads, including Lindsay Graham, which obviously is disconcerting. It included Ben Shapiro. I think Laura Lumer, Lindsay Graham, some other people, and they're claiming credit for it. And I think that that's just a bunch of talk candidly. Yeah, you see that image right there. I think that this plays into a narrative that they want to sell, and so they're going for it. The other thing

that I want to show is Anna Kusparing from the Young Turks. No, I don't really know her personally. I've met her, believe at the Republican National Convention. when Charlie sat down with Chank and Anna Kasparian. But I didn't interact with her, by the way, at all. She was kind of standoffish, whereas Chank was very engaging and wanted to chat. But she put out this just really nasty tweet after Lindsey Graham died and said, Good riddance. Then some other people called her on it, said, that's a disgusting thing to do.

And she doubled down on it. And it got even worse. She said, let me be perfectly clear. She's really glad that this happened. I can't see it on screen, so I've got to bring it up on my laptop here. But she doubles down, and she says, are you offended? Let me clarify. I'm elated that he's dead overjoyed, just like he was elated at seeing countless children throughout the Middle East.

But then she got called out on it because in November of 2020, she tweeted this. What kind of monster thinks gloating about dead people is ever okay? I guess apologists for ethnic cleansing. So she's just a giant hypocrite, and I'm glad that the internet called her on it, that this tweet is just, I think it's endemic of a larger societal rot. When people get on social media, they're just willing to say the craziest stuff. They're willing to be reckless, mean and cruel and vicious. And she got called on it because it's a hypocritical thing to do.

And again, Blake and I will be the first to admit. We have had very public political disagreements with Lindsey Graham. We didn't like his war positions. But don't do that. Don't be, don't be Anna Kasparian. Have some dignity. Have some class. Blake, I don't know if you want to comment on any of that or if you want to sort of take us into the recent updates on Iran.

Well, it just, it does speak to a lot, which is I think there's been an unfortunate general trend towards greater nastiness in politics. And that includes celebrating the deaths of people who politically offend you in some way. I think this is a bad trend. I think it's something we should push back against because celebrating someone's death eventually turns into justifying someone's death. If they were murdered in some way, we saw that with Charlie. It turns into justifying other hateful actions against your political opponents. And that's just, that's incompatible with the type of country we want to live in.

One of the reasons America is such as a successful and amazing country and has been for so long is, we are a country where by and large we don't resolve our political differences with extreme hatred, with violence, with celebrating, and that's something you do see in countries that are far less blessed than our own. But you did mention how Lindsay Graham might feel about war in general, and so we have recent developments in that. We should pay attention to it. President Trump announced just before this show began that the Strait of Hormuz is open and will remain open. with or without Iran, but he says we are reinstating the Iran blockade. We had that blockade going for several months on Iranian ships, and he says it's been brought back. He also announces, quote,

the USA will be from this point forward known as, in all caps, in quotes, the guardian of the Hormuz straight, but as such and as a matter of fairness will be reimbursed, the president says, at a rate of 20% on all cargo shipped for any and all costs necessary to do the job of providing safety and security to this very volatile section of the world. The process will begin immediately. Thank you for your attention to this matter. This is interesting in a few ways. It's us returning to a more assertive position in Iran, and Andrew, I know you and I are

both worried about this. We spoke to students in our panels. They repeatedly said, young people in their high school, at their colleges. They're not super excited about the Iran conflict. They would like for it to end. And this is, I feel this is the president trying to navigate that. He doesn't want boots on the ground in Iran. I think he realizes that would be deeply unpopular and deeply risky. But he's also aware these long-term conflicts, you need to take some sort of progress towards an end. And so he's hoping that this can up pressure on Iran's economy. He's also probably hoping this is a way he can

sell this as not expensive for the United States. That this is a way people have said, why doesn't the Middle East pay more for its own defense? Why doesn't the Middle East pay more for this conflict with Iran when they're overall in the long term going to be the chief beneficiaries of it? So when President Trump announces this, I think his hope is either we can pay for the war itself or we can put pressure on our allies in the Middle East to help us reach a permanent long term end to this. And we just have to continue to hope that President Trump has good judgment on this because I do think we saw that with the chapter leaders that there is a lot of political gain to be made from finally bringing this conflict to an end. And they thought it would be a pretty immediate gain if we were able

to do that. So just to be clear, between China, India, Japan, and South Korea, that accounts for about 70 to 75 percent of the energy that flows through the Strait of Hormuz. So I think, you know, Europe gets a lot of that too. So President Trump is basically saying, We'll keep it open, but Asia, you're going to be footing the bill. So, fair enough. Good conversation is about respect. It's how we create a space where people are able to share their ideas and be heard. Charlie knew that, turning point still knows that.

And TikTok has always strived to build the kind of place that thrives on respectful connection, where curiosity fuels connection and we can share what's on our minds and learn from each other. When ideas meet respect, good things happen. On TikTok, you can find a mechanic. explaining the why behind a problem. Most of us wouldn't even know how to name. Or a father sharing a lifetime of knowledge with his viewers. Viewers who listen, discuss, and then they respond.

TikTok turns connection into community through small acts of understanding. You can feel it in the comments and the thank you from a stranger halfway across the world. TikTok is a place where respect opens the door for discussion and discussion helps us build something real. We have Orrin McIntyre. He's a really deep thinker. He's really into philosophy. He's, of course, a host at the Belize. Check out his stuff.

He's done actual interviews and debates with a man that has, I think, become a fascination of some on the right and larger political circles just because he's apparently, he's been described as Putin's brain. Now, Putin loyalists will contest that and say that that's an overstatement, certainly. But nevertheless, he's become an important flasher. point in this Eurasian cultural block. And I think it can explain a lot for us here in America as we try to understand some of the ideas that are shaping our current moment. So, Warren McIntyre, welcome back to the show, my friend. Explain this. I think we should start with Alexander Dugan's most seminal work, his most famous work, which is the fourth political theory. Explain in

broad strokes what it is so our audience can understand the basic premise. Sure. So, Andrew, Alexander Dukin is trying to find a way beyond liberalism. He sees this as living in a post-liberal world and he wants to find a different political theory. He sees liberalism as the first political theory of modernity and then communism and fascism as the second and third political theories that attempt to address the problems of liberalism. He rejects liberalism, but he also recognizes the shortcomings of both communism and fascism. And so he does something he calls breaking the hermeneutic circle, which is, saying he wants to discard some of the worst elements of fascism or communism and see if there are any other alternative ideas that could be found inside those ideologies once we have shorn them of the worst parts of them. For him, the atheism and materialism of communism is the worst and kind of the ethnic centering in fascism is the worst.

And he's trying to find a way forward with those. Now, the problem with this is a couple different things. but ultimately the thing you need to remember with all of Dugan's work is you have to read it in the frame of a man who is first and foremost centering his Eurasian project. The idea that the Russian Empire should have a natural dominance, it should be allowed to ascend, but the West is ultimately going to have to lose ground so that Russia and other countries can flourish. I think there is some real genuine philosophical insights in Dugan's work. We always have to remember you that you are dealing with a propagandist as you are going through this. You can't just read it as some kind of objective assessment of where we are philosophic.

Right. So basically the fourth political move in his estimation here is you had communism, he rejects that, we had fascism, he rejects that, and then we had liberalism, which he acknowledges sort of won the 20th century, and so

he's saying, you know, you can't fight back against liberalism without being called a fascist, basically. But there is a fourth way, if you will, which is really just third way positionism, actually. But he's calling it a fourth way, which is ironic. You talk about the fact that he is a political propagandist

at his heart. Why do you say that? Well, if you read the fourth political theory, Dukin's not really hiding the ball. He says that the West must be destroyed, that America must be destroyed. The man has no love for Anglo civilization. He sees it as something that ultimately came to dominate the world and has driven nations like Russia into some kind of

artificial second place and that they should have flourishing once they're freed from kind of this cage of Anglo domination. So it's very clear that he's very passionate about his political project. And I think the best way to look at Dugan is perhaps to look at someone like Machiavelli. Machiavelli wrote the prince because he was looking for a job interview and because ultimately he had a project of Italian unification. Everything he writes in that book is oriented towards that goal. That doesn't mean there aren't certain deep insights we can draw from the prints. I have read a lot of Machiavelli and I use his work quite a bit. But we always have to remember that he is writing in that context and is famously known as a teacher of evil. I think we could probably at some level apply the

same frame to Dugan, someone who does have deep philosophical insights, but we always have to keep what he is saying in that context of his project of kind of eventual Russian emergence after Western collapse. So, and I want to get Blake in here, because this is sort of his sweet spot too but my last question is and I the reason I want to talk about this today orrin is because I think there is some confusion if you're just like a normie American conservative which is nothing bad by the way we want you spending most of your time raising your family raising your kids like volunteering at church all those things teaching little league but there is like if you just kind of check in on social media like why why are certain movements seeming to happen

why are people surprising me with their position on Russia for example I think I don't want to give him too much credit, but I think he's a piece of the puzzle of why some of these ideas that he's suggesting, because the critiques of modern liberalism are valid in many respects. Us as American conservatives would share those critiques, and they can be seductive to a larger narrative or agenda that he's got. So kind of break that down. Like, why is it seductive what he's saying to an American conservative? of some maybe it's an influencer, maybe it's a podcaster, a thinker, commentary person. Why is it seductive, but why should we, in your opinion, reject the larger premise? Well, it's seductive because, frankly, Dugan is right about some things.

He is drawing on more classic thinkers. He's drawing on Avola. He's drawing on Aguon. He's drawing on Carl Schmidt. He's drawing on Oswald Spangler. He's drawing on people who have made real and important insights. And so some of the things that he's bringing to the table are things that you do have to grapple with. But like I said, ultimately, his project is one of destroying the West.

It is anti-American in every way. He really does see America as the great Satan. He does see the need for it to basically die in a conflagration. He often uses these apocalyptic terms, you know, that we need kind of this in-times destruction of America and the West to ultimately allow these other nations to flourish. A lot of times, even though Dugan will note the differences between civilizations, he blamed. the natural outcomes of their decisions on the West, as if we are somehow singularly responsible for the bad decisions and bad outcomes of other people's way of being. And so I think it's just important to remember that while those conversations can be important, while that criticism

can be valid, because he is drawing from older thinkers that I think do have solid points. Ultimately, I think he's coming to a very dangerous conclusion, one which is deeply anti-American. We can address the issues of modernity without burning down our heritage. Those things do not have to coincide. Well, Orrin, what stands out to me is, as you said, he's super anti-American. So it stands out to me that some Americans, they like to fixate on this guy. I think they like to find philosophers who are aggressively outside America's orbit. And yet at the same time, he seems to me like someone, for someone who's supposedly outside America, he's totally guided to me by currents that are in Western, in American, in our ideological stuff.

And he just takes the position of America as terrible using the justifications they provide. This is one, and we can get into this in the next segment. He just tweeted this the other day. The very concept of success is deeply immoral. If you are successful, the other is a loser. We shouldn't accept it. We should prosper or suffer together. Otherwise, it is satanic.

honestly, that just sounds like he could be the court philosopher for like Zoron Mamdani. He could be the court philosopher for any radical leftist. It basically just sounds like communism. And so it's funny to me that this would appeal to anyone in America. Well, I just don't get. I just say anyone on the American right. No, this is. No, what you just got to, Blake, is super important.

Let's just throw this tweet up here. The very concept of success is deeply immoral if you are successful. the other is a loser. We shouldn't accept it. We should prosper or suffer together. Otherwise, it is satanic. This doesn't sound like a fourth way. This just sounds like, you know, a communist rehash or something.

Oran, how is this seductive? I think that, again, it's very attractive to people because a lot of Dugan stuff does attack that decadence of modernity. It does have realistic and reasonable. criticisms of certain aspect of modern society, but his prescriptions can often be very terrible, as we see here. One of the things that Dugan does is take the idea from Martin Heidegger of Dawson and apply to individual civilizations. And he believes that all of these individual civilizational da signs are the same and have the same value and the same worth. That we can't judge each other because we do not have each other's experiences. This is, if it sounds like

postmodernism to people, in many ways it is. It's a kind of a synthesis of traditionalism and postmodernism, which I think, again, lures a lot of people in because they hear the traditionalism. They see the critiques. They feel that, you know, to be correct. But then ultimately, they get led down some of these sideways paths that are ultimately very influenced by things like critical theory. If you read the fourth political theory, it has chapters on why basically you need to abolish the differences between genders and why you can't, you know, you have to abolish the evils of racism across the world. So these are in the fourth. political theory. They aren't just in the man's tweets. They've always been a part of his philosophy. Interesting. Here's another tweet from him. The tradition is the east.

Eastern Christianity is tradition. Western Christianity is modernized. The far west Christianity, Protestantism, is more modern than simply Western Christianity, which he labels as Catholicism. The West is the thrash of history, the black hole

in the bottom of reality. I also have to just point out here that his whole worldview is putting sort of philosopher kings, the guys like him at the very top of the hierarchy in a civilization, this multipolar, civilizational world that he's advocating for with Eurasia as a singular block. He would be the ruler of said civilization. So that's something to always keep in mind. Now, you've met this guy or at least interviewed him. I don't know if it was, you know, over Zoom or something, right?

But you did a debate with him. What did you perceive in that debate? Is he quick on his feet? Was he able to answer criticisms of his philosophy, whether well or not? So interestingly, I have both interviewed him, and then I was able to arrange a debate between him and another philosopher by the name of Nick Land, people who are on Twitter. I've probably seen him post pretty regularly.

But it was a very interesting discussion. I think, again, I don't think, do you know, is stupid. I think it's it's a poor, it's a bad idea to underestimate your enemy on this one. He is a very intelligent guy. However, when he was in that debate between himself and Nick Land, it was very interesting because Nick Land is in many ways a hyper Anglo philosopher. He is extremely interested in the West and believes in the mission of the West and perhaps a way that many people are not as serious when it comes to a kind of a hypermodern understanding of the West as where Dugan was very much a Eastern traditionalist. And so there,

but clashing between the two was very interesting. I found that while Dugan was intelligent and was able to defend many of his positions, it did seem like Land was operating at a higher level, that ultimately there were several times where he kind of ran into a barrier, and I think that Land very much got the best of him. I did not debate him directly, because I think Nick Land is a much more intelligent guy who can bring those criticisms and those questions far more sharply than I can.

But if people want to catch that, it is an absolutely fascinating discussion, and I think it will help you understand a little bit of where the differences are between these two world views. So, Orrin, I don't know that too many of our listeners are going to race out and read this guy's books, but so that they can understand him better. Maybe what's a good takeaway if you encounter a podcaster who's into this, an ex-poster who's into this, just someone in real life who's an enthusiast for Dugent, who's American, this guy who wants to basically destroy America? what's it maybe indicate about them, for lack of a better word?

Well, I think that, again, the fact that there are truths in Dugan's work does make it attractive to people. I don't think it's ridiculous to find insights there. I have personally found insights in Dugan's work that are helpful. But ultimately, we have to remember, again, that the frame is always one of, you know, the Western imperialism is evil, it is going to crush all societies, it must be defeated, the United States must be destroyed. and you ultimately cannot side with that. Just because someone has some insights into something important doesn't mean that they're right.

Carl Marx was right that there were some issues with capitalism that the alienation of labor ultimately does cause certain impacts to people that are negative. However, his solution is horrific and killed hundreds of millions of people and absolutely has to be rejected. And I would see Dugan very much as a similar light. It's a guy who has certain insights and you can find those insights out. outside of Dugan. Remember, most of his stuff is synthesizing other people's work. So there are plenty of thinkers he's drawing from that you can look at and understand without necessarily having to go to Dugan. And even if you do read Dugan, you should always remember that he's ultimately an enemy of your civilization. And no matter what, no matter what

critiques he has that might have some important insight, ultimately you can never, ever side with the solutions that the man has because they are directly aimed at destroying your own civilization. You should never become a traitor to your own civilization, even if there are some problems with it. We should be trying to renew our civilization, not destroy it. And our critiques are more pointed at radical progressivism, radical egalitarianism, where, you know, everybody gets the same outcome in life. We don't agree with those things. Less so with liberalism, which is, you know, our tradition in the West, which is, you know, the individual matters.

I think you can go into a hyper individualist worldview and materialism and all these things can be very destructive as well. And I think the Bible answers so much of that. We are part of a community, a community of faith. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are not hyper individuals, but we have individual rights enshrined in our Constitution. That's a beautiful thing. Oren McIntyre, check out his show and check out his Alexander Dugan debates and interviews. That's fascinating.

Thank you, Warren. All right. I'm so excited. the weather is finally warming up, which means grilling season is basically here. Sorry if you live in a colder part of the country. Where I'm at, it's grilling season. And if you're anything like me, you're already thinking about planning your first backyard barbecue of the year. For me, I already know what's going on the grill, and that's good ranchers.

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That's free meat with every order and $25 off your first order with code Charlie when you start your plan at good. ranchers.com. Good ranchers.com. American meat delivered. All right. So I want to bring in Joshua Carr. He's a political commentator. You can find him at X at Joshua underscore the underscore Carr with one R. And he attended Tyler Robinson's preliminary hearing and had all kinds of interesting and fascinating observations. We'll put it that way. And you've been so good and loud, Joshua. You've even received death threats for being so loud. So just tell us 30,000 foot view, what you saw in that courtroom and around that courthouse. Yeah, it's good to be with you guys. Thanks for inviting me on today. I really wanted to be in the

courthouse on a day where a lot of the information was coming out that the public wouldn't be able to see because I knew there would be bad actors inside the courtroom that day that were trying to lie. Fortunately, I was able to be there on Thursday, which is what a massive portion of the evidence was coming out. Some of that evidence, as we know, and I'm sure you've talked about, was leaked to the public. And when I say leaked, it was a mistake that happened in the courtroom. So I know you guys have seen a lot of that, but beyond what was actually shown in the courtroom that day, I was able to see the emotions on people's faces. I was able to see, frankly, a human side of the defense and the Tyler Robinson side that I didn't realize. I've always been a strong defender of TPSA.

I've been a strong defender of Erica Kirk and all of you guys. But what I didn't realize was that at no point did the Tyler Robinson family, which was sat directly in front of me, by the way, look defiant against the prosecution, look angry. They were simply, and I could see it in their eyes because I stared into their eyes. They were sad at seeing what Tyler Robinson had done. And looking at Tyler Robinson, he was completely stone cold. He did not move a muscle the entire time that I was there. And again, I was watching him and had a clear view of him for at least eight hours. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I've talked to some reporters who were in the room. I've obviously talked to some of the team that was in the room.

It's interesting that part you're zeroing in on, which is Tyler Robinson's family. I was told a story. Maybe you could confirm it, I'm not sure. But when they were recounting some of those text messages that were going back and forth, and I want to be somewhat vague just to respect the privacy of his family as well because they're not the criminals here, right? Or the alleged criminals. And candidly, his parents, from all accounts, did a problem.

brave thing and it must be terrible, right? And I led to believe that they're probably on the conservative end of the spectrum. But when that text message was read about Grant's gun looks like it's doing just fine or did just fine, I'm told that one of the family members that was there basically just his head hit the floor because obviously he must have had a relationship with grandpa. And I'm, again, I'm sorry to be vague. I'm just saying I want to be respectful. of their privacy. But when that text was read, that the head just hit the floor, just complete devastation to kind of realize that his family member and his family member's gun, somebody that probably had a relationship with, was used to kill somebody of such important,

a legend of American, a conservative American, Charlie Kirk, you know? Did you see any of that? Yeah, I did. That was probably the most emotional part of the entire day was when they read that specific text that you just referenced. And like I said, I had a perfect view of the entire Robinson family. And I won't say who it is either to be respectful to them. But this individual hung their head at that point. And it was hung pretty much the entire time after that. In fact, towards the end, I think maybe the last two or three hours, they didn't come back inside the courtroom. They were clearly very upset. I also heard a lot of emotion behind me. I was right in front of

Erica Kirk and Charlie's parents. And, you know, one of the directives that we got being in there was you cannot turn your head you cannot react in any way if you try to look at somebody to the left or right you will be kicked out of the courtroom out of respect to the victims and so i had this moment of just having to look forward and hear the family of charlie kirk weep behind me and it was honestly one of the hardest things i have ever had to listen to in my life and i i was quite emotional as well you um received some death threats to joshua because you you have been outspoken you were i guess planned as scheduled to speak at UVU's campus after a court hearing one day you ended up having to cancel that tell us the details yeah so you know I've been in this business a few years now we

received death threats from time to time I'm sure both of you are you know fully used to that especially in the last 10 months but it's definitely been increased over the last few months yeah sadly but it's been increased over the last few months as I've continued to push back harder and harder against the conspiracy grab that baron Coleman and Candice O and the likes are spreading. And so that kind of reached ahead this week. Again, I'm used to getting those messages online, but it was a little different this week on Friday right before I was going to go to this event at UVU, again in the same place that Charlie Kirk was murdered. I received a call actually on my personal cell phone from someone who was impersonating a police officer.

They were using fishing tactics. I won't go into too much detail on. And they were essentially trying to get my address using public records. Fortunately, this person does not know where I live. They do not know my location. But in the moment, frankly, I didn't even realize what they were trying to do. It wasn't until they abruptly hung up that it occurred to me that they were openly trying to dox me. And I saw some other evidence of that online.

So my wife respectfully asked me not to attend the event at UVU that night with all of that going on. That's unbelievable. Yeah, that's horrible. And I'm sorry that you had to experience that just for standing up for, what you believe in, standing up for facts and evidence, which is something that, unfortunately, in the online space so often gets cast aside. Why did you feel so moved to be so vocal? That's a really great question. Yes. Yeah. I don't mean to say that in any sort of comparison way, but all the way back in September, I started seeing conspiracies come out

and it really ticked me off. And if you look at any of my social media or my YouTube channel, you know, that really has been my work for the last 10 months is trying to debunk these theories. I think part of the reason for me, and I can't really claim any credit for this, is that I live a few minutes away from UVU, and I grew up in Provo, Utah, and I know literally over 100 people who are at this event with Charlie. In fact, I myself wanted to be at the event that day and wasn't able to because I had a doctor's appointment. And so it being close to home is what has particularly enraged me, frankly, with the conspiracy

theory is just knowing individuals that Candace Owens and others have brought up who I know for a fact that she is lying about that really take me off. On another personal note, when I was 18 years old, I lost my father in a work accident. That was very tragic and sudden. And so my mother is a widow. I have a fierce loyalty to widows and feel that, you know, I've just never seen this attack on someone and I know how hard it was for my mother to lose her husband. And so to see someone lose their husband and then be viciously attacked and not supported has really just made me emotional and made me want to be a strong defender of Erica as well as the truth. Thank you for that. And genuinely, what was what was it like around the courthouse, Joshua?

Because I've seen you interacting with some of these other people that were more on the conspiratorial side of things and pushing alternative theories. right? What was it like around the courthouse? Was it a, was it kind of a circus environment? Was it pretty subdued? Did you see them? Were they trying to recruit people? I'm just curious what it was like out there. Yeah, so I was there Monday morning when everyone came. And Monday morning was actually quite subdued. The mainstream media was kind of the dominant force there. Everyone was watching people come in. I did notice one person who I knew was a notable kind of Candace Owens fan or loyalist. But she was quite quiet and subdued. And I thought this is very good. You know, it was either people there to support Erica Kirk or the mainstream media, and that was great. But as time went on and when I was there on Thursday all day, there were more and more Candace Owens fans kind of coming out of the woodworks. I would say it was mostly respectful outside, but I will say in order to get in the courthouse on Thursday, I had to camp out for, so I actually had someone go for me at 9 p.m. the previous day and get a spot. And then I showed up at 2 a.m. the morning of Thursday. and when I got there, there was bickering, and these people were essentially trying to debate other people in line with random conspiracy theories. Of course, they didn't want to engage in any of the facts that had been presented by the prosecution.

Instead, they brought up ancillary, crazy things that had nothing to do with the actual case. So it certainly increased over time, and I did hear them actively talking about being at the September 1st hearing. Were there police there? Were there security in that line? waiting to get in? There were police kind of around since it was in the early morning, you know, there were police cars that would occasionally come in. I felt relatively

safe there. The lights were on. As it got closer towards the day around 6 o'clock, the police force was very strong, very present. The head of security came out, told everyone, you know, we're doing this by the book. If you want to do any shenanigans, you're immediately

off the premises. And then what really stunned me, frankly, was in the courthouse, in the courtroom itself, I think there were eight police officers kind of staring us down at any time. And to be honest, I appreciated it because as someone who is now a public figure and who is getting these death threats, it was nice to be able to be in that setting and feel safe and feel like I could actually watch the evidence being presented without something crazy going down. Joshua, I was just a few questions that I think it's good to build upon this because you faced targeting people trying to docks you who seem to be coming

from this side of the issue. And especially the doxing part, that stood out to me. That's a tactic we're familiar with from the far left that they'll try to get people's identities so they can swat them, so they can pick at their home. Nothing good is ever going to come of that. And it's never something that would occur to Andrew or myself or people we know here.

So I've sometimes nicknamed those supporters Cantifa, because they remind me of Antifa, but maybe you've had other encounters. What's their ideological makeup of people who are really committed to these conspiracy theories about the case? What's driving them? What's motivating them in your view? That's a really great question. I used to get more death threats from the left, and it feels like now I'm getting it more from the far right. It seems to me that these people are more far right isolationists, but I think for the most part, it's actually not as political as we think it is.

I think the far left is always going to docks. They're always going to send the death threats. But I think for this case, specifically, it's so much more a cult of personality for them. It's more about the political commentators and the podcasters that they're following. I think there's a huge loneliness epidemic, frankly. You know, I was watching Charlie Kirk just now in the commercial break

and he had so much timeless wisdom. He's speaking in this clip I just watched two young women talking about what is going to give them fulfillment, what's going to make them satisfied in life. They're talking about having kids. And unfortunately, there are so many, women specifically right now, but still men as well, but I'm seeing it more from women that are not pursuing the things that give them life and satisfaction and happiness. And so instead they're turning

to things like crazy podcasters who give them conspiracy theories. And the reality is all of us love a good story. We love interesting things to look into. And so unfortunately, that can really take a part of the worst parts of us as humans. And I think that's what's happened for a lot of these people. I don't even really know if it's a left or right wing kind of thing. Yeah, I actually don't, I don't, I think this is actually an important point because I don't describe any of this movement or whatever it is that you want to call it, a social media scene as right-coded at all, as conservative at all, it actually feels very left-coded to Blake's point. I mean, I think the nickname he applied is probably apt, right, because so much of what we're seeing,

you know, collective guilt for all Jewish people, right, just completely going like every answer. It's like a Sunday school kid, where every answer is Jesus. You know, it's like every answer is Israel or Jews. Andrew, I'd be really interested if there was a way we could dissect this, for example, whether a lot of these people maybe, they were originally apolitical or somewhat to the left. They identified as moving to the right, maybe during COVID as an example, where that was, that realigned a lot of people politically. I'd be really

interested if a lot of the people who are getting involved in this had that arc of starting on the left, moving to the right, they maybe still identify as on the right, but these tendencies are resurfacing in some way. I think it'd be so interesting to unpack, because this phenomenon is so alien to anything I've seen come out of the right anytime in the past 20 years. There's been, sometimes they've gotten into theories, but the very personal aspect of it, of really going after Erica, going after turning point, going after people Charlie New doxing them. It's just, it's so left-coded to me. It's just, I don't know where they're learning these habits from. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of Bill Ayers and, you know, the, the idea

of going after your political opponents, personalizing it. I'm thinking of the tactics where you use personal insults, where you personalize the attacks, and then you kind of make a sport out of terrorizing and harassing. That does seem to be a left-wing tactic that we're seeing play out from right-coded accounts. But I think to your point, Blake, there probably a lot of these people have been sojourners on the political journeys and have been shapeshifters, and they're returning to their neutral position, their default position. Very possible. I have another question, Joshua. Since you're from that area around UVU, I know something we're all worried about is this will likely go.

go towards a trial. They will be filling a jury. We asked Andrea Burkhardt about this. What's the overall environment like in the area around where the shooting happened, where is there a high risk that if you just selected 12 random registered voters from Utah County that will get someone who would just be very committed to, I'm going to vote for an acquittal, no matter what, because I just will never, ever believe that Tyler Robinson and did this. Should we worry about that? It's a concern I've had as well. It's something that's constantly in my mind, especially over the last seven days. I think the good news is that most people, if you ask them, do you

know, like, have you looked into this a ton? Most of them are going to say, oh, I've heard these weird things about it online because unfortunately Candace Sones has done a fantastic job of propagandizing all of this. But the good news is most people, to be honest with you, really don't know anything about this. And if they don't know anything about it, 100% the prosecution is going to do a fantastic job convincing them. So I think that needs to be the strategy from the prosecution and picking the jury is they want people who really know as little as possible because it's just such a slam dunk. I mean, the preliminary hearing alone was enough evidence to really bring a conviction

pretty much. And I know for a fact they're going to have a lot more when they go to trial. So I guess overall, to answer your question, no, I'm not concerned. I think there are a lot of people, a meaningful group of people, who yes, they know a lot, yes, they are very bought into the conspiracies, but I think the prosecution can weed them out in an effective way. And the vast majority, I mean, I would say upwards of 90 to 95 percent, heard about this shooting, thought it was awful, and beyond that, they really don't know a lot about it. That's very reassuring to hear. And I can only hope this will grow because I just feel the nasty

behavior that comes out of this, I feel it has to be very alienating. Again, I, I think, I think back 2020, for example, there was a lot of sympathy towards, towards like the BLM movement, for example, and then they start torching cities, they start smashing shops, they start terrorizing people, and it turns people against that. And I just feel there's really nothing likable about this entire movement to me. So I just have to hope that I have to hope that you're correct about how this will evolve. Well, and Joshua, did you feel that the last week was a seminal week in the tide turning? Did you feel a discernible difference?

30 seconds. 100%. Yeah, I mean, there's a part of me, and this is totally a selfish human part of me, that is seeing all of the ties turning. And I'm like, well, dang, it would have been really awesome if you guys had, like, joined in in September when some of us actually just took a stand

and had the courage to do that. But it's fine. At the end of the day, it's good that the tides are turning, 100% both with normal average people it's turning, but also you're seeing it all over X. I think Candace and her cult are pretty much done for. Joshua Carr, thank you for being brave and for being brave early. We appreciate you.

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