The Charlie Kirk Show - THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 86 — Trump v. Musk, Battle of the Bill(ionaires)

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

The world's most powerful man and the world's richest man have abruptly ended their alliance and gotten into an all-out brawl over the Big Beautiful Bill on X, Truth Social, and beyond. Charlie, Jack, Tyler, and Blake react to the unfolding drama, and speculate on who will win the showdown and whether any future reconciliation is possible. Watch ad-free on members.charliekirk.com! Get new merch at charliekirkstore.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, what is going on between President Trump and Elon Musk? We have the instant analysis with the Thought Crime team, Blake, Jack, and Tyler. We analyze it of all the latest stuff. Impeaching Donald Trump, the fight, the schism. Let's see what happens. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com and subscribe to our podcast and get involved with Turning Point USA at tpusa.com, that is tpusa.com.

Become a member today at members.charliepusa.com. That is tpusa.com. Become a member today at members.charliekirk.com. That is members.charliekirk.com. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Charlie, what you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

I want to thank Charlie. He's an incredible guy. His spirit, his love of this country. He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas

that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, campuses across the country. That's is noble gold investments.com it's where i buy all of my gold go to noble gold investments.com okay everybody uh today's uh an awful day but anyway it's okay we're here anyway we got blake we got tyler and we got jack so uh today is not great prove me wrong yeah it's uh i don't know if there's anything to prove. What do you mean? I love it. It's entertaining. Jack's having fun.

OK, Jack, tell us how today. Great today is. I think it's hilarious. I think I think it's I think it's great. A number of on so many levels. Right. You know, is it like is it a bump in the road? For sure. It's a bump in the road. But this is what happens when you have coalition politics. If you study history and, you know, Blake, I'm sure could name, you know, rattle off a dozen examples off the top of his head have coalition politics. If you study history, and Blake, I'm sure, could name, rattle off a dozen examples off the top of his head of coalition politics that go through this after the coalition achieves victory, that go through some growing pains, that go through some leadership challenges, which there clearly is, which go through some issues and flare-ups. And it's always going to happen. It was inevitable. I think this is something where no

company can have two CEOs, and a country has to be run by a chain of command. And it's really as simple as that. And so if if if this was always going to happen, fine, then might as well happen within the first couple of months of the first year rather than, oh, I don't know, like right before an election or a time when it really matters. Charlie charlie today's today's a great day we should be celebrating and here's the reason why this is the everyone expected this to blow up way sooner than it actually did and it actually lasted this long there's no person that's had a stronger more great relationship with the president than turning point and charlie and everyone else this is the one thing that i want to point out today is the anniversary uh 13 years 13 years of turning point happened just like on cosmic

you know the stars aligned and on the 13th birthday and the only you know the only relationship that's persisted through all the trump years that's big and organizational and influential has been turning point and so you look at this it happens these things break up they change they change shape i think a lot of people expected the the elon thing to blow up at some point or another that's just that's just politics it's normal it's just big because he's the richest guy on the planet and like you mentioned charlie trump's the most powerful guy on the planet and so it's just going to be a little bit uglier than normal but you know these things happen they change and so it was expected it was going to happen at some point hopefully it doesn't get

worse to happen like this i mean accusing of the epstein files i mean and yeah and we should say like i think a lot is going to matter in the months to come because this could easily this could be literally in you know a matter of days they calm down a bit and you know the bill moves on and they either bury the hatchet or stop sniping each other but right now the pinned post on x by elon is is it time to create a new political party in america that actually represents the 80 in the middle with 82 voting yes on his pinned tweet and you know it has to be said i don't think it would be that easy to just create a new political party from scratch but if you attempt to do it you can greatly shake up one election cycle at least and maybe we'd see

that jack said not to say this but it actually is really easy to create a new political party it's easy to create one it's difficult to get you know 10 20 keep it going oh past one i would even make an argument against that because you don't need to have it be super sustainable it doesn't even have to be in very many states but i don't want to give anyone ideas i don't want to like i want to be that guy but the both of the parties are very fragile because creating a new part now there have been parties that have been created i think they've done it wrong the question is about how to do it the right way the problem the scary part with elon and some of the people that he has around him is that they might figure out how to do it the right

way and if they do that that would that would damage. I think I think it would damage most immediately the Republican Party. Wait. So I'm trying. So then Kareem Jean-Pierre says she's becoming an independent yesterday. And then today. And then the Biden guy came out and said, just to be clear, Kareem Jean-Pierre is extremely stupid. Kareem says she's becoming an independent yesterday. And then today, Elon's like, I'm going to create a new independent third party. Like it's you think they were colluding no i'm just saying it's just like it's just amazing how it's all happening within a couple days what's interesting to me is usually when you hear these oh let's create a party that represents the middle you hear it from sort of these bland centrist like politicians or businessmen who aren't famously political. But with Musk, what's interesting is he's become this utterly reviled figure on the American left because he allied with Trump.

You had people burning Tesla's vandalizing Tesla dealerships, all this nasty stuff. And he's suddenly pivoting to I should make a centrist political party. And the question is, would the left be remotely willing no no they've already sworn him off exactly they're done like elon there is no you want to talk about like the arc of non forgiveness the left created non-forgiveness principle yes and so at that point he is done there is no redemption for him on the left and so i think you create this interesting i hate using the word game theory but it does mean that if if Elon were to create a new party, it could probably mostly only damage the right because the left is not going to defect for this. And then you circle back around to he can sabotage the right, which means he would empower the party that has made it its priority to destroy Tesla, destroy SpaceX, possibly put Musk himself in prison.

They wanted to do that if trump lost and are they going to have to be able to i feel like naturally they're going to not want to be enemies because one of the things that musk and trump have in common is the left wants to put both of them in prison and blake to your point though too this isn't just theory on the left the left did this so they created the no labels party and the left held together and did not fracture nearly as much as people thought it would on the left because they created the no labels party uh really because there was a lot of uh resentment at the time for how the left was managing things with biden and obviously they they equipped in and carried out the Liz Cheney theory and did all that and tried it. And it just was an utter failure on the left.

They've already done this and they succeeded in hanging together. This hasn't happened on the right yet in any kind of functional way. And I agree with you, it would mostly hurt the right if it did happen. Yeah. I just, I mean, here's the thing I have to keep on just reminding myself is that this i want to count your blessings i'd much rather have this blow up i mean it went to like from nothing to thermonuclear war you don't accuse somebody being in the epstein files i want to log this by the way that uh charlie predicted this specific thing when um he saw that elon musk made the tweet let's get the exact tweet up. The ingratitude one.

I'm going to bring it up here. I'll scroll for a bit. This is one of my greatest calls ever. Yeah, this is an amazing call that he made. Let's go down to where it is. This was about three hours ago. It was around like 10, 15. Exactly.

Do we have it? And so he says, without me me trump would have lost the election dems would control the house and republicans would be 51 49 in the senate such ingratitude charlie sees that any messages he goes blake within one hour this this is going after where trump is going to go nuclear you do not say i'm the reason Trump won. Yes. Trump can forgive actually quite a few things, but he will not abide by that. He said by 1130 Pacific time, it's going to happen.

1137. 1137. Trump makes his first truth social post. That's right. And I had no inside information whatsoever. Like, not at all. And just, boom. And it was, and i will make

an art you want want me to make a provocative take but jack i think you're gonna like this i think bobby kennedy was more instrumental in keeping the coalition and bringing a new coalition together the last 90 days than elon was not saying elon wasn't important what do you think jack Jack? Bobby or Elon? I've said this a ton of times, and I just mean this objectively, that the Maha movement is the most popular political movement in America today. And I've been saying this for months. I don't think that anyone in media has quite figured this out yet, that somehow Republicans, for once, outflanked Democrats on health, on health care, right? It was like they did Obamacare and then took them out through 2010

and then they just sort of stopped talking about the issue. But then RFK comes along and finds a new way to talk about health as an issue. Republicans latch onto it. President Trump brings in Bobby Kennedy. Of course, they have the great and iconic meeting at, yes, a turning point rally, turning point action rally down in Georgia, which has gone down in history and will continue to go down in history as one of the great meetings of the minds and the coalition coming together. And so that doesn't diminish what Elon did, but it's just it represents a completely different political alignment than we've ever seen in American politics when Bobby Kennedy crossed the line and came over with Donald Trump. And that just is what it is.

It stands on its own. right now, whether it be, whether it be dyes in foods, whether it be the latest thing that they're banning from, from cereals and glyphosates and just, just all of it. And I got to say for suburban women, I've always told the story, right? That for suburban women, my wife and everybody knows my wife, Tante, she, you know, follows our stuff, but she's not super political, but I catch her, you know, in, in, at some point, like last fall or whatever it was. And she's listening to a Rogan podcast. And I'm like, we listen to Joe Rogan. Like you don't usually listen to Joe Rogan. I mean, that's cool. Whatever. Cool. You know, have at it. And it was Bobby Kennedy. And she's, and I said, what made you want to listen to this one? She goes, all the moms in my mom's chat are talking about this.

All of the suburban women who have, especially those who have children, on the vaccine, on the food, on everything else, the maha mom movement was born through the work of RFK. And so aligning with Bobby Kennedy, that's why Trump wants suburban women. It's so simple. And that became a key demographic among other key demographics. But it absolutely became a key demographic margin in the swing states and absolutely in the Rust Belt. And so it just just basic politics, you know, analysis. I've been I've been saying this point forever that you cannot you cannot remove Maha from the coalition. This is absolutely one of the most important pieces politically for Trump and the movement going forward. I want to tell you guys about YRefi. YRefi is one of our best

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May not be available in all 50 states. Go to YRefi.com. That is YRefi.com. So, Blake, is this reconcilable? I actually think it is. I actually, I'm going to make a call that there will be um i think that there is a there will be like a really like like quiet 30 days 60 days 90 days and i think that by christmas there might be like this subtle thing where like reports are elon you know back at white house for

lunch or dinner yeah i actually i think this is going to be reconcilable. The reason being, and I know this, is it went so hot so fast that it, like, the impulse control was obviously, like, not there, that this wasn't as calculated. This just seemed to be just, like, a very quick escalatory thing. And, look, evidence is this. I could name some private examples honestly i think this is pretty public let me think about this no okay a good example is this like at least someone like elon was very very mad at laura

loomer back in december like very mad that's public like he would like that she was like going after him and all that and then like a couple months later like he was retweeting her and like was responding to her like there has been a pattern of both of these guys i mean look jd vance called trump you know compared him to hitler back in like 2017 2018 now he's the vice president united states i think that there is going i actually think in the short term this is not necessarily reconcilable i actually am more bullish on like them actually coming together because it sounds like oh trump's only president for three and a half years that's a long time elon and you have a lot of government contracts and i actually think that you have very

ambitious and i think righteous goals to want to go to mars and i actually think what cooler heads are going to prevail here and um don't be surprised if there is like a story, and I have no inside information to say this. It's just instinct. Again, I haven't talked to anybody. In the next like nine months where all of a sudden there's like back channel established between Team Elon and Team Trump and like Bill Ackman or somebody serves as like the intermediary.

The stakes are too high and deep down i actually think they agree on a lot and have good memories together that don't be shocked if all of a sudden elon's having steak at mar-a-lago in november well and here's i mean i'm telling you right now don't be shocked here's where the trump team is smart too is nothing that elon has worked towards and once is going to be supported by the left as you like so poignantly pointed out here is that they're not going to be so they're not going to have any kind of home to go to with the left because the left isn't going to embrace elon and they're not going to support anything that elon's doing with doge and everything that he's actually upset about the only people that will

help him are on the right and so when the political reality comes down the road here of who are we going to take out the people they're going to take out are the most moderate people anyways that are the least likely to be trump supporters and so when those people that when elon accidentally or incidentally pushes those people towards trump there's going to become a real clear reality that those people um are not gettable to him they're not winnable and you know the establishment when it goes towards Trump, that actually makes the party more conservative and then actually ends up doing the things that he wants to have done anyways,

which is going to enable all of the dogecats. So I think that the outcome of what you're saying is that we've seen numerous times, even people really close and really fond of President trump including you know steve bannon for example they had a little bit of a tiff once once upon a time where the president got kind of upset they got over that very quickly they figured it out the political dice got re-rolled and you know there was a realization that you know some of the things that steve said were correct and they got fixed and it actually made the movement better. And I think that that's probably where we're going to

end up. Blake. I, so the issue with them reconciling it. So first of all, we have a lot of people in our comments saying this is kayfabe or fake. Nope. Wrong. Nope. Nope. It is definitely real. Sorry. It's very real. Sorry. Sorry to be the bearers of bad news on that one. But I guess my issue with envisioning a reconciliation is that Trump, I think we agree, Trump has like a pretty strong need to be the number one guy. He kind of, he very much thrives and like he wants to be dominant. He wants to be number one. And so he can reconcile with people as long as it carries the implication they are they are acknowledging him as the boss as the number one and the issue i could see is is

is elon musk going to make that type of submission i could see him not wanting to attack trump anymore i could see him you know maybe realizing this was a bad idea. But is Elon going to come out and be like, oh, I was wrong. Trump is the best president ever and is being awesome. And I just I think that there is such an unpredictable arc to all this, guys. Just like let's be clear. A year ago, Elon was still on the fence. Like, I mean, he was not yet endorsed Trump until July 13th in Butler, Pennsylvania. Like, we're all over the

place here right this is we we must understand the it's like tesla stuff like he was doing spaces with desantis people like basically 12 months ago 13 months ago right so i just think we all need to do the yeah 100 i mean do i love the like escalation i actually think trump has been like remarkably restrained in his public retorts i mean no no all caps truth social posts yet yet but i think there's a reason for that i think like trump does it's kind of like he people are expecting kind of like the giga atomic bomb in return and instead instead, he's just like, I don't need it. So Amy Walter is really she's good on most of the Cook political report. She has a very interesting take. She says this is a war that Trump is destined to win against Elon.

Doesn't need Elon's money anymore. Any more of his campaign. Trump is more popular among Republicans than Musk is by a lot. Congressional Republicans are going to stick with Trump on BBB. And again, I just want to say one other thing, which I think is really important, guys, is like this feels like drama more than anything else, right? It's drama. Yeah.

We are in June of 2025, okay? By like Christmas, we're going to be like, wait, were we talking about that stuff back then? A year from today, if the big beautiful bill does even half of what Stephen Miller says it is, we're going to have a lot more deportations. The border border will be secure who knows what the economy will look like elon

thinks we're going to a recession like he just predicted that today in kind of his stream of consciousness tweets but it's also just i i think that if you look at these things in terms of year cycles i would much rather have this blow up in june of 25 than june of 26 totally yeah right that gives us a ton of time to remedy stuff and let me just say one last thing one last sorry and jack i want to throw it to you in primary politics i have heard this so many times i should have said this on my little youtube thing earlier but i'll say this and i'm going to say this tonight on laura ingram i can't tell you how many times I've heard this. There is no way they can get back together

because it's been so nasty the way they've attacked each other. And we always seem to defy the odds where all of a sudden people that were so bitter. He called little Marco that, you know, he's now a secretary of state. Okay. I mean, he said that Ben Carson was a mental case and literally

and Ben Carson ended up being HUD secretary and he made fun of the fact that Ben Carson was a mental case and literally, and Ben Carson ended up being HUD secretary. And he made fun of the fact that Ben Carson was lying about being stabbed in his, you remember this whole thing with his belt? I mean, the there's, there is a rhetoric around politics that I think we play into too much. And I think that again,

I, I am, if it was a stock, it would be at an all time low like between Trump and Elon growing it up I don't think they'll ever be the same way they were but I actually think that they're stronger together and they'll both realize that

I mean definitely go around stronger together I think one of the biggest tragedies that could happen here is set aside whatever else you have like it's genuinely important that what's the most successful recently founded American manufacturing company? It's basically Tesla. What's probably the most standout American firm innovating in a difficult field? It's probably SpaceX.

And what's the most important free speech platform we have? It's X. And all of those things are very valuable things that musk has been involved in and one of the biggest tragedies would be if we lost any of those whether it's because of some fight or if it would be because elon himself would damage it like i really hope elon doesn't go on this bender where he starts censoring a ton of people on x because i might lose my x account. Maybe, maybe that would be very unfortunate if it were to happen. And I, you know, we kind of believe we basically, you know,

being a Trump follower means kind of believing in the great man theory of history. And I think Elon Musk is clearly a great man who has contributed a lot. He was done a lot for America and for the world. And you would really hope he does not damage that with any impulsive actions now. But sometimes great men do do that. Jack, I cut you off. What's on your mind? Yeah, no, that's exactly what I was saying that, you know, I do think this is going to happen. I do remember Elon also being associated with the original Trump administration in 2017. And he left sort of in the aftermath of Charlottesville and a couple of other things. So that was also in the first summer of the first admin. And you have a situation politically where, yeah, it's anything.

And I gave a comment to Politico earlier today along similar lines, just saying that, you know, with Trump and Elon, never count anything out. Just never count anything out, especially with the president. He has a way of turning friends into allies and, or excuse me, and turning enemies into allies and has done so time and time again. And people seem to always discount his ability to do so. But I do think that we should actually talk a little bit about the bill itself. And so, you know, one of the things that I've been trying to push on, on, on X and just as on the shows and everything is that it's this idea that people are saying, OK, well, you know, we have to balance the budget.

We have to balance the budget. We have to balance the budget. We get the debt. I don't remember campaigning on that. I really don't. I think it's important. I think it's I think a lot of things are important, obviously. But that was not one of the core issues and has never been one of the core issues. It's always been about mass deportations. It's always been about tariffs. It's always been about foreign policy. And so that's really what this bill was always meant to address. And so, yeah, there's lots of meta things going on here, but when it comes to these issues, this is the – and Stephen Miller is right.

This actually is the best deportation bill, the best immigration bill that we've ever seen put forward in this nation's modern history. And if you actually want entitlement reform, if you actually want to cut down on this, oh, by the way, well, everyone's talking about the supply side. Oh, we cut the programs, just cut the programs, cut the programs. Well, what if, boys and girls, you look at the demand side of the equation as well and reduce the number of people who are on these programs by removing them from the country? 43% of immigrants, legal and illegal, are on one welfare program or another. So get them out. You get them out, the number is going to go down. That's the way these projections work. They don't factor in something like mass deportations. It's going to dramatically reduce the amount of people that are on the programs. And yet you never see the libertarians or any of these guys, these budget hawks, you're

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So, Blake. I'm thinking of just downside things that could happen uh elon is making tweets where he says that we should impeach trump now and replace him with vance i suppose that sounds one very dumb because it's that classic like okay it can't happen so why are they doing this but do you worry that could cause damage at all like i if it would feel very annoying if Vance, who we're all very supportive of, gets caught in the crossfire having said nothing and done nothing. I got caught in the crossfire. Which, again, it's like I got to – he unfollowed me. I'm like, what is that all about?

It's like, fine, I guess. Again, I just have to remind myself. Elon and I had no contact nine months ago, let alone a year ago. So it was fun while it lasted. I learned a lot from him. He was a friend and maybe one day we'll be friends again. I literally, I have no bitterness at all whatsoever. I'm not, it's not a joke, right? Like I, it's, I, it's fine. I actually, I think highly of him. I think he's an incredible entrepreneur. I think what he's done is remarkable and great. If he wants to ever, you know, hang out again, let me know. we've all been

big fans over here yeah everybody's no i mean that like i'm not like still big fans i have a great life i have kids and a family and like you know it's fine okay great charlie charlie is calling for a cease an immediate ceasefire he's asking for terms the peace talks will take place at uh turning trump just announced he's shutting down Diablo servers. And this is a big, big deal that. No, wait,

I thought Diablo servers. I don't know how he's doing it. He's got a strike of, he's got a drone striking Diablo servers. I'm so upset. Simultaneous negotiations in Istanbul for, you know, like Russia, Ukraine, India, Pakistan, Israel, Gaza and Trump, Elon. And we just have like four rooms right next to each other. And Trump can run to each of them.

And then like one of them is just Elon hanging out playing Path of Exile or whatever he's into. I thought it was Diablo. I think he probably does multiple. The one that he kind of... Yeah, but I think Path of Exile 2 is the one where he claimed he was a top 10 player in the world and he was just paying a Chinese guy to

fake an account, which not going to judge. Really? Yeah, yeah. I think it was Path of Exile. fake an account which not gonna judge really yeah yeah he was no that was um wait wait no somebody was literally just texting me about that i think you're right yes path of exile to a diablo like hack and slash so he probably plays diablo too i've never played diablo i know it's quite popular he plays diablo but my understanding is path of exile to claiming to be the top guy and that would be like if he was going around saying he was like the top like a top nba player or something it just it

doesn't it doesn't really work that way so let's talk about some of the politics here the democrats won't want him and there's no there's no reconciliation there let's just say the republican thing is on ice we're so far out from the midterm so his threats of a third party would be very difficult to manifest in a reality well it'd be difficult but it also it's early enough that if he wanted to say like let's say he met some of his tech buddies and they came up with like a platform they wanted people to run on that they could call centrist. Maybe it would be secure the border, but have high skill immigrants because obviously those tech guys like that and maybe balanced budget, you know, something that they come up with. They could do it and still have the time to say, we have the money.

We'll spend three billion dollars to fund any candidates who want to run for House or Senate on this platform. And they have enough time, I think, that they could get this together by then. They could have the platform by July or August. They could start recruiting people, start getting them on the ballot, and you have the whole thing going by next spring. They have enough time to attempt that if they really want to. Now, I think what you'd find is much as Elon found the federal government frustrating because you can't just be a CEO and go in and blow stuff up. I think getting a party off the ground, he would see a similar thing like, oh, you mean we have to get all these volunteers

who go and get signatures and they have to vet the signatures. And it's a pretty big pain in the butt. And you can't just buy, you know, you can't just take a billion dollars and buy someone under signatures and they have to vet the signatures and it's a pretty big pain in the butt and you can't just buy you know you can't just take a billion dollars and buy someone under the ballot in most places well you can't kind of can well you can you can pay people to collect signatures yeah but even then if you're gonna again the problem one thing to put one person on the presidential ballot but if we're running in the midterms you can't run one person you have to run 300 people so to get official party status in most states there's a full process for it and it's a numerous month process so you're running out of time you're running out of daylight to basically do it

because the problem well well it's different he just tried this with a ton of presidential yeah presidential is different because each state has their own policies for how many signatures you need to collect to get on the presidential ballot but for official party status in order to nominate somebody for governor lieutenant governor all the way down to local offices but congress in particular you have to have official party status in the state and so what they would have to do is they would have to go to the states that have the most opportunity to win so the people that they effectively hate the, where you can knock off one or two people in that state to make it worth it. The problem is, is that like to get official party status in each of the states, there's a certain number of months that it takes to do it.

And you have to do it before the initial primary election. Some primaries are as early as March and April of next year. That's when a lot of primaries are in some states. And so you legitimately have to be done with that and get official party status and identity right now. And so to your point, even if you paid people to do it, it would be almost impossible because you need a ton of signatures to make official status.

But if you did it and you did it now ahead of 2028, it could be really problematic because once you get official, you get in, you can actually nominate a person and you make the ballot automatically when you have that official status. I'm laughing because someone in the chat just said that Steve Witkoff now has to have a meeting with Elon. That's very funny. I mean, all kidding aside, there will be attempts at back channels established here. It's not even a question. This is too important of a line.

It's just, you know. The scarier part is the attacks that Elon might if if it does continue the way it does. And I agree with Charlie. It's not I don't think it's going to it's going to get resolved. And people are probably going to figure it out because there's not really any there's nothing for them to get other than if you just have pure animosity, you want to take people out. But this could have implications where if it continued, it would be more challenging for Republicans to retain the House. And if Republicans don't retain the House and Elon does continue saying things along the lines of impeach Trump, that's probably not helpful because they probably will. And then we'll have to go through all that circus. So we don't want to have that happen. It'd be better for it to get resolved and, you know, find some kind of common ground.

And truly, Congress should be considering more things that elon you know has his heart into here because he's right on a lot of things but you know we don't want to lose the house and there's and it's really narrow like today i think the political report came out uh it was one it was 208 to 207 with like uh i can't remember how many in the teens of how many flippable i mean this is going to be a really close election for for house in the way that it's training honestly i find it hard to imagine us hanging on to the house if there's any you know major dissent like this at all it's razor close we barely won it in 24 if 2018 is any pattern to go off of we will not be as strong in an off year with trump as president

than we are with trump himself on the ballot especially in general incumbents lose seats in the house in general incumbents lose seats in the senate like we're in for a tough fight no matter what and if the second most favorite second most famous guy in the 2024 trump election cycle is now you know aggressively denouncing trump talking about impeaching him i just i don't see a way that that's healthy for us in any way whatsoever yeah this is not good but i mean it could be worse and i think there's gonna be reconciliation i you think there you strongly believe that yes i do i i think i'm not saying anytime soon but i think that there's too much time there's too much investment in this country i don't think elon wants to see the woke win i don't think elon wants to see our adversaries win

and i think that once it's just also just blake can you riff on the byzantium thing yes yeah okay because it's just kind of sometimes when you're in the tunnel, you don't quite realize what's really going on here. And when history writes the book, they're like, at a time of great peril, when the Mohammedans were taking over and the Chinese were taking over, a very nasty Twitter feud ensued. Yeah, yeah. You could just read about this with you know in history i love to always if you want to think of something strange you like to kind of step in and like zoom out to like 10 000 feet and you're thinking if i'm reading a high school textbook about this what would it say was ridiculous or dumb and you know i kind of like to imagine how would you feel if you opened

a textbook and you were reading about like the roman Empire and it said you know in the early 300s of the Roman Empire as barbarians were moving against the gates so the Romans became consumed with uh mutilating their own bodies and you know the Roman men would say that they were actually women and Roman women would say that they were actually men and they would performatively cut themselves like you would think oh these guys are completely deranged. So don't, we should feel a little off-put when we see that today. But a similar thing, you just read in so many declining states

and so many declining empires. I was thinking of Byzantium, the Byzantine Empire, because I listened to a history of Byzantium podcast in my free time, as one does. And in the chronology of that empire, they're in the death spiral, you know, circling the drain and you can just read it where okay the only way they could come back is if everyone you know

united against all of their external enemies and what do they do instead they have dumb civil wars they squander money on it they squander attention on it they in some cases you just have people directly betraying their country they you know you said the said the Mohammedans were at the gates. Do you know how the Turks got into Europe, Charlie? No. A Byzantine emperor fighting in a civil war brought them in as mercenaries, and he let them keep one of the towns that they landed in. And they're like, oh, we're in Europe now.

And then they conquered the entire Balkans about 100 years later. Good job. Good job, bro. So that historical digression is just to say america has serious problems they're less than they were six months ago we should it's so easy for us to forget because it was so easy actually we secured the border we're not having 5 000 people come across every single day just pointing that's such a win. Good stuff going on. Yeah. Like that's such a W. It's such a W that we're like getting rid of all the,

like the DEI trash that is infesting so many things just today. The Supreme court ruled. Oh, actually that part in the law where it says you can't discriminate based on race that that applies to white people too. You can't discriminate against them either. That's a huge win. There are so many things we can build off of and it would be a huge tragedy if we lose any of those things because we're falling

into a civil war and i would say this as well and it's worth saying is that whatever you think of like the big beautiful bill i think whatever changes we could make to it you know if we pass trump's version it's better than what we have now, if we pass Trump's version, it's better than what we have now. And if we pass Elon's version, it's better than what we have now. Both, though, are better than just a Biden status quo where you still have the border is bad. And it gets rid of the Biden status quo. It gets rid of his inflation reduction act stuff. It gets rid of a lot of great things. it would be a huge tragedy to allow any of that to go under because of some ego fight,

because of some sort of just because neither side will give an inch over it. And so I hope Charlie's right that there's reconciliation. I only say on the long game. I don't think this is going to happen in the next week. But I will also say that the people around Trump are very sophisticated. And I think that there will be multiple attempts to try to bring folks and bring people together. ultrasounds with pre-born together with the sanctity of human life month. We're going to save 35,000 babies to show the world that not only do we believe life is precious, but we're going to do something about it. Your gift of pre-born will give a girl the truth about what's happening in her body so that she can make the right choice. What better way to start this new

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That is charliekirk.com and click on the pre-born banner. I'm a donor. You should be too. charliekirk.com pre-born banner. Tyler, what do you think? Well, I was just going to say, I think he's slightly misreading this too. And I'm not saying that as hypercriticism, but it's not too far off from the DeSantis crowd where I think they're misreading. They're like, well, why isn't Trump doing more on this one specific issue or that specific issue?

And just the entire Trump movement, the MAGA movement is so complex. It's way more complex than I think anyone ever gives it credit for. People oversimplify MAGA. There are so many sides to MAGA and so many different reasons why people at this point have collectively supported the president and trust him. And it's one, one big blow up with how big or small it is really, but even a big one, people just aren't going to come off the president and they trust the president. And so how they look at this and the messaging that's coming out with the with the big beautiful bill is like that we're talking about is it still does a lot and the president really has played middleman between congress who wants to do practically nothing and where elon was and elon has lost the room because now he's kind of pushed

trump away with all this stuff and he started it it. It wasn't Trump that started it. It was Elon that tweeted out about it first. And so, I mean, I think you have a misread that's going to self-correct. People like Elon's really smart. People around him are smart that have worked together. The White House has gone through this a thousand times. They're going to have some reconciliation. And they're going to figure out that the only side that's ever going to get what he wants done is going to be on the right so um jack jack let's let's talk about the the perspective here of where we as a movement go

next is it best to largely ignore this i think that's probably best we kind of have the blow-up dust up again this alternatively could have been like a two-week feud and it still might be but like again when you accuse someone of being in the epstein files oh and they also want to be impeached right is that right yeah okay um interestingly though he might still be pro jd because he was was like, I want Trump to replace me with JD. So whatever. Jack, what is the best way forward? Yeah, look, the best way forward, I think I would agree with you.

You have to – and this has got to be clear. There needs to be an addressing of the debt. I think that is a real grievance. You can't spend yourselves into oblivion. And there are real issues with the global these, you know, these debt markets, the financial capital markets. They've taken out the German Chancellor Merz, who was over today at the White House. The entire German government is bankrupt. They're like parabolic. The level of Greece in 2008, they're looking at right now. And a lot of this, of course, has to do with the Ukraine war. There are huge, huge issues of debt that obviously have crippled Japan, that have gone through and taken out multiple governments in the past. So it's absolutely fine to say that this isn't like

the H-1B debate, right? If you remember that from Christmas, the last time there was this big dustup with Elon. But immigration, it was. But immigration is a fundamentally different issue than debt, where the MAGA movement I think is very sympathetic to this question. I think the MAGA movement and conservatives in general and, as Tyler is saying, the multifaceted conservative movement wants to cut debt. That's absolutely sure. But at the same time, we as a MAGA movement are not going to renege on immigration, and we're certainly not going to renege on mass deportations. And the fact of the matter remains that the political reality is what it is. This was the deportation bill that we were going to get. There is no easier way to get a better

deportation bill. It's just not going to happen. This is the real world. This is the way politics works. Nobody likes it. But guess what? That's the system that we have. And so unless you want to go in and change the entire system overnight, which isn't possible, you've got to deal with the system that we have. And that's this one. There isn't a better option to a better mass deportation bill, period, full stop. So for the movement, I think you see it with Trump signaling. You know, he's saying, I don't have any comments. I'm moving on.

I'm doing the next thing. And I think you're going to see the movement by and large do that as well, that they are going to move on to the next thing. And President Trump's going to continue having these foreign visits. He may go over to China soon. Obviously, there's still the Ukraine war that's going to go on and the news cycle will find something else he he's got a tweet up right now or a truth up right now saying I don't mind that this happened and I still support the bill it does have cuts he's promoting it calls it the big beautiful bill I call it the big beautiful

deportation bill and he's really signaling that he just wants to get back to the issues at hand. And I think that's what the movement is going to end up doing. Like Donald Trump is not going to lose his supporters. There's nobody out there who's going to say, oh, I regret voting for Donald Trump because Elon isn't part of the White House anymore. But that voter just doesn't exist. I'm sorry. They really don't exist. And so you're going to see that continue and people want and i will say they just want to see these promises kept and president trump is clearly it's interesting i'm going to test this on x soon but i will say though that

the feedback i'm getting online is not actually like why are they fighting it's more like what is elon doing yeah at least that's what in my circle i don't know if you guys agree totally yeah every single person that's watching this and in the political that are surrounding us that are hyper political like hypersensitive they're like what like why yeah at least that's what i'm getting blake i don't know if you agree, but that seems to be the current sentiment. I think truthfully, people have seen a lot of Elon behavior over. I mean, frankly, they've debated it a long time ago. Like liberals were doing this when they were just turning against him and we still liked him where they said, oh, like Elon is losing it. Elon's getting like more and more aggressive and like sort of out there behavior. You know, we've seen the funny stuff where like he has the

women he has kids with and you sort of roll your eyes at it and but at least it's not public but there's a lot of people who have that sense of is like is elon losing it a bit and some of that is he does like there's this doesn't feel strategic it feels grandiose like he's thinking oh i can just blow up trump and go start my own political party and i'm going to just gloat about it on twitter now in his defense a different person a decade ago did basically just brag on twitter that he could go and get himself made president and he did in fact go do that so you sometimes can have grandiose claims on social media pan out. But I wouldn't say it's super likely.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I have a lot of thoughts I'm not going to say right now. But yeah, so I have other things I'll say privately. Yeah, I think again, I think Elon just kind of overskis with the political movement because, again, part of politics is this. And don't forget, Elon's built a political apparatus around himself so america pack he invested heavily into you would you would assume that any threats that are made we're going to be utilizing that that that uh entity that he's created is very conservative it's not not anything else it's not made up of democrats it's not made

of independence it's made up of conservatives and It's not made up of independents. It's made up of conservatives. And the conservatives that we know are all good people that are over there. And they're not going to be, and I wouldn't accuse them of being ultra Trump supporters. I don't know.

Every single person's proclivity to certain people. But they're probably more likely to support people who maybe didn't support elon uh in in his quest for doge cuts so he has a really unique situation that's in front of him and that's kind of insider information it's like where you look at all this and go okay well there's going to be some you know he might make some changes he might make some shifts he might try to do some things that are damaging. But I think that the more people try to do those things and play those games within politics, and presidential politics in particular, it's usually self-harming.

And we saw that again with some of the things. We like Ron DeSantis. He's a good guy. He's very friendly with Charlie. Charlie went and sat with him and all of that. But some of the people that were around him kind of hurt themselves in that process. It's never been a personal thing with Ron. I have a different take than most people.

I try to be very magnanimous. You just saw that DeSantis is sending out fundraising emails based on this, though. What did Jack tell us? Who is? Jack has more of a pulse. Ron DeSantis is like the flu. Jack knows within like an hour. It's like unbelievable.

It's viral on Twitter. DeSantis has COVID. It's like unbelievable. Shortly after Elon started going off, Ron DeSantis' PAC sends out an email promoting Elon and Doge and basically countersignaling this entire thing. And, yes, I do pay attention to countersignalers because this is what led to Ron DeSantis' campaign in the first place and his completely failed primary where he humiliated and embarrassed himself in front of the entire country. And, yeah, so he's, Elon isn't backing down. He leads the fight. And Ron DeSantis isn't going to back down either.

Chip in as well. And it came out right after this. Elon Musk took the hits and led the charge. And that came out right at 1.21 p.m. I think that's Eastern. So he's clearly, clearly playing politics here. And you see, by the way, a lot of the DeSantis people are all over X right now, spreading just ridiculous nonsense about Trump and Epstein, just absolute lies,

libel in many cases. And you're seeing them have an absolute free-for-all here. So I think there's a lot of people who are just kind of looking at Elon in terms of his wallet. And certainly he was involved with that X Spaces when DeSantis first announced was with Elon. And they're thinking, oh, perhaps this is a way to get back in or something like that. I want to tell you guys about Y Refi. Y Refi is one of our best supporters at Turning Point USA.

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888-YRefi34 or log on to YRefi.com. May not be available in all 50 states. Go to YRefi.com. That is YRefi.com. Do you think that, um, can we, do we talk – we didn't talk much about the Epstein thing, right? I just – I feel like it's barely worth talking about. Like, it almost feels like just, like, slop fodder. He just is like, oh, Trump is in the Epstein thing. Didn't we – I think we already knew that. It's always been – No, but the February documents show that he was in there, but there was no criminality whatsoever.

Yeah, it's just like they live in Long Beach a million times. It's just – I mean, I think Jack said it on Twitter like, why would you need Russiagate if Trump was involved with Epstein? Yeah. And by the way, why would they try to kill him? Why would they try to bankrupt him? Why would they try to arrest him? Why would they do all of this? Yeah, and then also just so we're clear, this is the most, yeah, exactly, Jack.

And some people say, well, you must understand if you know, there's Democrats in there, so they don't want to release the files. And they wanted to defeat Trump more than anything else ever in the last year. Like ever. Yes. With like imagine this. Imagine Kamala Harris wins in you know, she's the nominee in August and they do the Kamala switch and an Epstein op within a couple of weeks. That would have been pretty big. That would have been it.

Which I've seen is already dead at this point. He's already dead. The network's already out there. They've no, obviously I would. And by the way, like I want everything released. I've said it a million times. I want everything released. I've gone as far as I can to literally go to the White House to ask them personally in many cases and spoke to the attorney general of the United States and the head of the FBI and personally lobbied them directly one-on-one in the White House about this. So please, like if there's anything else I can do, let me know because I'm trying here, folks. I'm trying. But the idea that they wouldn't have released this when Merrick Garland was in charge of the DOJ and have people be able to put this together, of course they would have. Of course they would have.

Ghislaine Maxwell, who's still around, of course they would have put this out for Kamala Harris because who knows? Who knows what that would have done in a close election? I don't think that that I don't know. I mean, it's it's it's just so ridiculous to even think about where it's so obviously not true. Donald Trump kicked and we have to say this like a million times. Donald Trump kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of his Mar-a-Lago club in 1999 and immediately turned around before the first arrest, the one where he got the sweetheart deal. Even before all that offered to help do anything he can because he heard that Epstein was coming on to like daughters of guests and members and things like this. This story has been told a million times. And believe me, if they could have told us on Trump, they would have done so a long, long time. Yes. It's just I feel as if we've been through this narrative 45 times they would have manipulated the whole narrative to blame it all on trump of course

yeah by the way they would have thrown bill clinton under the bus to get rid of trump like they they do that all the time they'll kill away their old relics are you kidding me yeah it's like al franken like became yes that's what i'm saying for 10 minutes but like if they would easily have like thrown bill clinton into like the dustbin of history and Hillary, they would have destroyed the whole Clinton thing if it meant getting Kamala Harris as president. They would have manufactured 90,000 things around the one. So let's let's think of all the Palm Beach like intelligentsia. They would have thrown out every like Palm Beach billionaire Palm Beach intelligence. No, it's true.

Like the Palm Beach ruling class. I mean, it's just funny because Palm Beach is not, you know, it's not like an intellectual capital. Let's just find Palm Beach ruling class. The Palm Beach billionaire elite. Like if you're the Democrats and you are you're Joe Biden and you have access to the Epstein files and you are you're trying every up. OK, let's just be clear. They try to put Donald Trump in prison for 700 years for document stuff and for all this. If they would have had him on Epstein stuff, they probably would have moved on that. Yeah. And at the very least, if the statute of limitations was like beyond, they would have definitely like jack smith's investigation would have had a

little more oomph if he was like oh and donald trump is a pedophile yeah or jack smith was like we raided mar-a-lago to get information pertaining to the epstein investigation now that would have been like a pr narrative that would have been cooking right this idea that after 10 years all of a sudden like we're supposed to believe it and like look i just this is so ridiculous in more ways than one just because you're listed in a file does not also mean you're like a client or you're incriminated like you know how many people like a lot of people are listed in the 9-11 commission not everyone rudy giuliani's in the 9-11 commission you know that he was also the mayor of new york and you know who Rudy Giuliani later worked for?

Donald Trump. That's right. He must have done 9-11. Yeah. You know that Donald Trump is a real estate developer. He would have been interested if the towers had gone down. Exactly. And so it's kind of like a little bit,

it's just such lazy intellectual crap that it just kind of goes to such a level that at first it was kind of like your jaws on the ground and then you like think about it and you're like oh okay hold on like after all of this we're really now doing the epstein thing like okay they scoured the planet charlie for the access hollywood tape in Trust me. If they had anything that was out there, they would have released that years ago. It would have been out so fast.

Yes. And it's just, again, I just, I have, by the way, we should clip up this little thing we're doing. I'm getting lots of texts from people.

People are liking it. So imagine you're, you're like the grand maestro of the Democrat war room, right? You're, you're trying to like, let's defeat Donald Trump and you have access to the entire maestro of the Democrat war room, right? You're trying to like, let's defeat Donald Trump. And you have access to the entire federal bureaucracy.

So you got Merrick Garland. You have Lisa Monaco, who's the deputy AG. You got Jack Smith. You control the House. You control the Senate. And here's this like bubbling up Trump movement, right? And you decide to go dispatch Alvin Bragg and big fanny willis while you're sitting on an epstein indictment you're trying to tell me they're like i've got it we're gonna have fanny

willis indict trump for making a tweet that people should watch oan because the georgia house is in session we're gonna get him on that one and like so look just just be so just understand that we are clear here you go have like one of the dumbest people ever in the history of criminal justice fannie willis coupled with jack smith while you're sitting on an epstein potential indictment that would have actually potentially jeopardized donald trump's political campaign yeah no i'm sorry it's just beyond rubbish beyond. It's like so stupid. You have to be very, very, very low IQ to fall into the traps of. And these are the circles that are on Twitter, unfortunately, too, is that I see so many people who consider themselves conservative. They get lots of likes and retweets and things like that on this stuff this is what created that whole desantis crew that

jack was just talking about is that's what destroyed desantis's entire campaign was that kind of stuff overly x driven campaign and i've actually been saying this for a while privately and i'm going to say it now we get huge numbers on x we had a tweet that you know just got 60 million things i no longer look to x as the finger on the pulse as i used to it's it's kind of like a little bit of like a doom loop of a brain rot in the algorithm feed i actually look more on youtube at times for like kind of a good pulse unfortunately the big thing with x is like a lot of the left did leave x and i think the value one of the biggest values of twitter and why it was so atrocious that the left killed it the way the original twitter the way they did is it was open

public free speech platform and elon musk brought back the free speech but the left hates free speech now so they all went to blue sky so that they could like become unhinged on it together and that plus the monetization of it it threw off the balance of it a bit plus ai bots there's a lot of ai bots there's a ton and i just again i don't want to smash x too much like i don't want i'm just saying we still love it we still love i mean i am immensely glad elon bought it again elon can unfollow me he could shadow ban me i don't care i will die at the stake on the intellectual purity that our civilization is is like is infinitely better it is standards of deviation better because elon decided to park

what 40 what is it uh 420 billion what for for 42 billion dollars whatever it was 420 um we we are a better country because of it. And we should thank him for that. It's very important. We're glad you did that, Elon. Thank you for buying X. We remain committed to that. You can simultaneously also say, be like, this is not a good 24 hours, okay?

You are hoping Donald Trump gets impeached. And you're also being like, oh, he's on the Epstein file list. Okay, then why are you hanging around with him so much? I mean, there's a lot of just contradictions here. It's not the own that you think it is. And I think they're just kind of going to be a little bit like, boop, boop, backpedal. And I also just say, we're all on Team America. We can all reconcile here.

It's all good. The enemy is the left. The enemy is the Marxist. We know what they are. And we still control the white house everybody yep we're still in control yeah and i honestly i think that's one of the most disastrous things and the lessons that we need to learn from stuff like this is is to have conservative activists in particularly the activist class so you have an activist base that's on x in particular that has to learn how to uh rally around our people and not

always engage in just like the he said she said and then ultimately the the destructive is i think that we have a lot of members of congress um there's a few some of them are are very interesting ones from south carolina that sometimes gets into some of the stuff uh where it just like it absorbs so much shock instead of people going out and doing things that are going to be impactful for the movement and i say this because like running an activist organization with turning point action you have to have people focused on end goals that are positive yes and when they're doing that they're then you have less of this stuff if you all you're doing is spending your time just like

kind of you know falling into you know what is trump saying and now what is elon saying you're not doing stuff to actually save the conservative movement in the country this is not tmz okay like we got it we We got a DTMZ politics. Okay. This is like what the, the, the Drake and Kendrick Lamar thing. I knew nothing about that. I only knew about it because kids would ask about it on campus. It's not constructive. Okay. The war of words means it's just, there's nothing fruitful here.

And at the same time, we just, we just have to just kind of take a deep breath and keep the main thing, the main thing. And I harbor no resentment whatsoever because I actually want to save the country. You can call me all these different names. Do you know how many people that have attacked me, you know, over the last couple that have attacked me like repeatedly and aggressively throughout the years. And by the way, we're at the 13-year anniversary of Turning Point USA today, 13 years. And people have been attacking us. Very good. Thank you.

Thank you, Blake. It's very fitting that this all happens on the 13th. Today of all days. The lucky 13th birthday. But it's just, in politics, you have to have very, very short memories. You have to be very magnanimous. You have to be very willing to forgive and to move on. And I think that there is a moment where we need to allow this to kind of just pass and eventually de-escalate. It's so funny to think.

Imagine if this was 50 years ago and they had a fight. This would just be an article in Time magazine like a month after it happened. And then maybe someone would write about it in their memoirs later. But now it happens instantaneously. And 50 years ago, no one would have noticed or paid attention it would just be some drama the president one of his businessman advisors but in the modern age they have a falling out and someone immediately goes on x says something you can't unsay it giant blow up everyone's riveted it distracts everyone it just drives

home the difference between now and the past. Final thoughts, Jack. Yeah, people supported Donald Trump because they like Donald Trump and they like his policies. That's what this comes down to. If Donald Trump delivers on the policies, the tax relief, the immigration reform, the mass deportations, foreign policy, the rest of it, Maha, of course, then the coalition stands. And it's as simple as that. That's what shifted the needle in 2024. That's what shifted the votes. And Charlie, you and I have talked about this. If he's able to deliver even more tax relief from middle class or working class, not only will the Republicans win the House in 2026, they will expand their majority. It's really as simple as that. And I think people need to, I think people need to take

a step back, stay frosty. I'm staying frosty. I am sub zero. I am maintaining maximum levels of frigidity right now. Politics is still politics. Okay, Donald Trump's in a feud. Men fight. Big news, big deal. Get over it. Focus on the policies, focus on the victories, and they will continue. It's all going to be okay. Again, I will say right here, you can mark it down by Christmas, maybe before that, there will be like a surprise Elon Musk comes for dinner, comes for dessert at Mar-a-Lago. You know, leaked New York Times, Elon for dessert at Mar-a-Lago. You know, leaked New York Times, Elon Musk spotted at Mar-a-Lago.

I'm just saying. If you nail that one, I guess I'll just be really impressed. I could be wrong. I'm just saying, by Christmas, don't be shocked if all of a sudden you're going to see like a Elon Musk cameo just coming by for a little bit of like a little Sunday, you know, a little bit of a nice, you know, with extra chocolate sauce and M&Ms.

Right. You can't have extra Trump's the only one who gets to. That's right. Two scoops. Two terms. Two assassination attempts. Two Musk reconciliations. There we go.

There we go. And again, I want to just say one other thing. Elon had a blow up with President Trump back in 2017. It wasn't of this magnitude, but he was on some sort of advisory thing and he left it and he blew up and he left Trump. There's a waxing, there's a waning, there's an up and there's a down and then there's valleys and there's troughs. I'm going to be a little contrarian here because I think I know I am in a unique position because I actually know to both of these guys. I don't know Elon nearly as well as the president,

but I've spent a lot of time with Elon the last six months, and he's really good to me. That's great. And I harbor no resentment that he unfollowed me and whatever he feels, he feels, and tomorrow will be a new day. Subscribe to the Charlie Kirk Show podcast, everybody. Take out your phone and type in Charlie Kirk Show podcast.

Check out Jack Posobiec's show, Human Events Daily. Jack does an amazing job. You guys can subscribe there as well. This was a flash episode of Thought Crime. We have a lot more to do. This was really great. Email me now, freedom at charliekirk.com, how you guys are thinking about this. What side are you on?

What team are you on? I think it's actually going to all be okay. I think cooler heads are going to prevail. And I am long on America, and I think that we're going to figure this one out. Talk to you guys soon. God bless. Keep committing thought crimes. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us, as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.

For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.