The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - 10 - Liam Mullone

Episode Date: July 31, 2012

Liam would rather be accused of fascism than being boring. Leaving behind the "intellectualised whimsy" of his former persona, he has embarked on a quest to say the unsayable. Find out why Tim Minchin makes him angry, and the precise circumstances under which one might shoot a child in the legs.Get ad-free new episodes, bonus content from interviews and much more by joining the Insiders Club at www.comedianscomedian.com/insidersGet tickets for Stu Goldsmith's stand-up tour at www.comedianscomedian.com/tour@comcompod | www.comedianscomedian.comAnd don't forget to join the Comcom Facebook group, which you can do here.See Stuart live on tour - www.stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and this is the last Comedians' Comedian podcast until September. We're going to be taking some time off to go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. I imagine a lot of you are too. So I'm going to leave you with a fascinating one for this short break as I discuss anger and compromise with a wonderful comedian, Mr. Liam Malone. Well, tell me about Edinburgh then. When did you start writing that show, the show that you're going to do shortly? Kind of as soon as I'd finished last years,

because what has happened with my comedy is, for several years I was just doing a sort of kind of, kind of, intellectualized whimsy whereby it was I was not generating very much stuff because I never sat down to try and write it would always something would occur to me I'd make a note of it and I'd take it from there and so I had some set piece jokes that were very complex and very sort of clever and you know I was kind of relying on that kind of thing and then last year I thought what if I just

what if I just say everything that I've rejected for being too mean-spirited or or too dangerous or bordering on class hatred or racism or things that make people recoil

rather than because I was just trying to be charming and nice so my instinct was go on stage and try and make people like you But I thought, I'll try it this way instead. I'll just be unpleasant. I'll just do everything I've. And I did that and it works so much better than anything I'd tried to do before.

And it's just easier. Because I think I'm being more genuine to who I actually am. And people actually respond to that a lot better. So it's quite easy now to write stuff. Because every time I just have a... You know when you have a thought to yourself and you think, Oh, you don't think like that. Fucking grow up.

Or, you know, you tell yourself off. You say, you're all more evolved than that. Come on. But then you write it down and do it as comedy. Yeah. It's an outlet for it. Yeah. And it's...

I'm just going to stop you because I think that bird might be a problem. Because I think listening back to this, all anyone is going to hear is, which is a shame, because this is exactly what the stuff I want to talk about. I can't tell you it again No, that's fine

As long as like the bird is an issue It then stops being an issue That's absolutely fine So you started off You started off wanting to make people like you Or like feeling that you had to make people like you I think I don't think I sat down and thought That's what I need to do

I think it was just an instinct Because I You know I And I don't know whether There's a lot of discussion About whether this is genetic Or learned behaviour But my one twin

Who just can't deal with people I mean, I was basically him. You're talking about an actual human twin here as opposed to some sort of constructed... As opposed to a xenomorph. No, as opposed to... I didn't know if you were talking metaphorically about my one person can't deal with...

Oh, I see. You've actually got a twin. No, I don't have a double-ganger. No, sorry, no, I don't have a twin. Sorry, the twin that my wife gave birth to, as opposed to the other... I'm sorry when he said my twin. Let me start again.

Let me start again. In the beginning... Some aliens Begat the human race And My wife had twins One of them is They're both completely different looking

They look nothing like each other And one of them is very very gregarious And laughs at everything And runs around Loves meeting people The other one just I can't deal with anyone

Except me and the wife And I'm like him But I was always like him growing up etc very hard talking to people it was only after starting to do comedy that I was able to actually have a conversation

with people where I could actually look them in the eye during the conversation everything up until there I was just far too self-conscious to to do it I mean I still am in sort of many ways I mean I remember when I first saw Frisky and Manish and before they were huge

and I was like, oh, I want to ask them where they're going to be on next and my friend and goes, well, just go and ask them. I said, I can't. She's like, you just spoken to like 600 people. Yeah, but that's easy. That's easy. That's not, there's no eye contact. He's doing 600 people.

That's fucking easy as fuck. So she had to do that for me. And I'm still very much, you know, it's still, it comes back from time to time. It's just, ugh. So that's kind of how I, so when I started doing comedy, kind of thought, you know, it was just an extension of, God, it's the biggest cliche,

isn't it? I tried to make people stop bullying me at school by making them laugh, and so they would like me. It's frustrating that you're not even allowed for that to be a backstory now without assuming like a cliche. Jack D said it, didn't he? And it was like, eh. But so that was your, that was your origin, though, a version of that? I think it was that because, you, I think it was if people are laughing at something you've said, it defers, it deflects them from thinking about you, doesn't it? It's like, you know,

and I think my comedy was all just an extension of that. Just like, don't look at me, listen to this, basically. That was where I was coming from. And I didn't want to get into sort of me. and I didn't do anything that was sort of close to my heart I didn't talk about you know what sort of things that had actually affected me

or tried to make that into comedy I didn't sort of, it was just all sort of whimsical stories and then it sort of in 2008 there was a great sort of storytelling boom and a sort of explosion of whimsical comedy and I thought well why don't I try and do that and then I did this show that was just totally

this is something that happened to me and a girlfriend and it was tragic and it was just a true story about getting stuck basically I got robbed by a stripper and had to live in the desert for two months and so the show was about that and it was all very sort of... I am so sorry I didn't see that show I would love now to be going

oh of course this is the robbed by a stripper bit it's being revived in November oh good for the storytelling festival that's called in a dead man's hat folks yeah and that was all just totally here's my heart I've cracked it wide open here's everything that's inside

and and that was like it had its moments but that was too far the other way and then I just thought and I just thought to myself you know it took so long to realize that I had to sort of mind the darker so I just mind everything that I put out of my mind

yeah and you know it's just because I you know human beings are quite sort of base aren't not we just sort of like there's you know there's um the sort of intellectualized view of the way it's just a it's just a sort of

pointless veneer um so I don't know what I'm talking about. Everything I've said for the past five minutes. Well, yeah, I suppose what... But basically, to get it back to what I was saying,

yeah, I thought, well, just write down everything that you've rejected. And there was so much of it. There was just page after... And I just... I had an instant fringe show because I thought, oh, yeah, there was that, and there was that other thing.

And it just didn't stop. I had about an hour and a half in front of me. And I tried, you know, I'd started working through it, and open mic nights, and it pretty much all worked. And so it was the easiest show I'd ever written. I mean, you had to sort of give it a point and give it a circularity and give it a, because I'm really anal about things like that.

I know some people can just stop a show in mid-flow and go, well, that's the... the last joke. Yeah. But you, you want it to have a structure. You want it to have a satisfying structure. I'm totally,

and I take the piss out of shows that have a, I do have routines to take the piss out of shows that are like, you know, like you might have, somebody might have worked in a ketchup factory for a month, and they'll think, oh, we'll turn that into an Edinburgh show, and they'll call it Source Code.

Yeah. S-A-U-C-E, and I go, oh, God. I saw recently on Andrew Watts's face. Facebook thing. He's had some situation where the police descended on his house because he had a gun. It was a toy gun. And I think you commented underneath it saying if you can find in that a parable that resounds about your own life. Bang, that's an Edinburgh show. And that's exactly what it is, isn't it? You go, you mine, you get the smallest

possible story and then go, and thus my life somehow. Yeah. You can do the last joke and say, and that's a bit like... Yeah, and that's when I really knew that I... That's when I realized. Title of the show. Yeah, absolutely. But I like to write stuff like that as well, that I make fun of it.

I want to write, I don't want it to be as clunky as that, but I do want to write something that is narratively satisfying. So you feel like the end is buried in the beginning somehow. You have these pretensions of kind of high art. If you can say something that just seems really flippant and stupid at the beginning, and then later on it turns out to a bit of massive significance. You know, I'm totally totally... And you can look at the audience and go, ah, see, see how clever and brave I am.

Yes, yes. Well, what I'm trying to do, well, the reason I use that now, because if I do 20 minutes where people are thinking, this guy's just borderline racist, then I'll come out with that point and go, and hopefully they'll go, oh, right, now we get it. So, yes, I'm trying to use those. tools to help me do stuff that is quite scary and daring. And I mean, this year, I'm just trying to... Last year, I was just trying to go through all the things

you weren't supposed to talk about, like, Islam, and... So was last year's show the one, the first time you tried writing down everything you rejected? Yeah, and I did it on the free... The laughing or whatever. I can't know which one's which. I don't care. Fucking politics. Somewhere.

The Pirate Festival, the Laughing Horse Because I wasn't I wasn't convinced that it would work at all And it really worked very well And what everyone said was, shame about the venue So, which wasn't laughing horse's fault It was just, well, you know what it's like People walk in two minutes from the end

And there's scraping chairs And there's very difficult to actually get the structure of a proper... And the concentration. Yeah. Holding their concentration. But it was good in a way because I knew that if I could hold their attention

in a place like that where they'd invested nothing and they could just walk out of them board, then I knew that it actually, you know, it actually did work. So your experience of doing that show, was it as simple as you wrote down in advance the things that you didn't say, you said them all and it worked? I mean, were they, presumably?

that I thought I think just things that annoyed me a lot of it was things that other comedians had said that I just thought oh shut the fuck up how just grow up

and I'm like that can you give a simple example because I'm a coward I couldn't say to their face but I turned it into a joke um as an exact way see if I say then

they'll recognise their work okay okay somebody said to me I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I love Muslims, I just hate religion. Well, no, specifically I said, I love Muslims, but I hate, I hate Islam. And it's as simple as that. And I said, that's, that doesn't make any fucking sense, oh, you, what you're saying to that person is,

I love you as a person, but I hate, I hate everything that defines your personality, your traditions, your, your, your way thinking. Sort of like saying, I love bananas. I just, I just really hate potassium and the colour yellow and all organic plant matter. And it's that sort of, I've got a real thing about that sort of hardline rationalist thinking that wants to take the ghost out of every machine and go, yes, this, but not that. When you say you've got a thing about it, you're anti it or that's your... I just pisses me off. Yeah. Pisses me off. Every time tin minchin opens his fucking mouth, I get fucking angry. And that's what I'm trying to channel these days.

So thanks for tuning in to this interview with Liam Malone. This is a fascinating conversation, I think we have, the nature of compromise and what it means to be uncompromising, as Liam is often referred to. That's not a claim he makes himself particularly, and I think it's quite interesting throughout this interview picking out Liam's worldview, which is very much he doesn't see himself,

as a confrontational quasi-political comedian so much as just someone who is trying to say the unsayable and trying to describe the things that make him angry, the things that make him angry in the world of comedy, in the world of the comedy industry and in the political world. After Alan's podcast last week, Alan Cochran's one, which is great. If you've not downloaded that one yet, please do. Really fascinating. We talked about Alan's attempt to work in a very different medium, the one-liner, and now we're going to be talking with Liam about quite a radical change that he's made, from the way he used to work, from his intellectualized whimsy,

and how he overcame the fear of saying contentious things, and also the other ramifications of that when you are prepared to have arguments, being prepared for people to disagree with you, and Liam's reaction to the people who misunderstand or understand, but take against his particular brand of polemic. The pros and cons of explaining yourself, and there's some very interesting thoughts about why he'd rather be accused of fascism than being boring.

By the end of this conversation, we are trying to discern whether it's possible to or whether Liam is interested in approaching such topics in commercial clubs and he's got some very, very interesting things to say, a particularly interesting angle on how audiences in commercial clubs can smell who you really are and they can smell it if you try to be something you're not. And an interesting solution that Liam finds to that. We'll talk about writing for other comedians as well. Liam's written for Henning Vein and Andrew Lawrence, so we'll be discussing that. And also a fairly unusual booze-based system of getting work done.

So if you're going to be at The Fringe, Liam Malone's show is called A Land Fit for Fuckwitz, and it's on 3.30 p.m. daily at the stand, although double-check, because I think some of those times change over the course of the month, but the majority of them are 3.30 at the stand 3 and 4. That's a land fit for fuckwit. So I'm going to be seeing that. I hardly recommend you do too. And of course, if you're up at the fringe, come along to the Comedians Comedian Live at the Gilded Balloon in a little room called The Turret.

It's only a 50-seater, so it's going to be rammed. hope. And that is 12.15pm weekends. So lunchtime, Friday, Saturday, Sundays. And here's the full list, if you've not had it before. On the third, fourth and fifth, we've got Sarah Pascoe, then Fred McCauley, then Josh Whittickham. On the 10th, 11th and 12, we have Alan Davies. And I saw Alan's show. I saw him do a preview at Old Rope on last Thursday night at the Phoenix. And it's an incredible show. I hadn't seen him do stand up for so long. I don't think anyone has. And apart from the Australians, of course, when he started last year. And he is just so funny, so naturally funny. He reminded me of a cross between Mickey Flanagan and Alan Cochran in that way that it's very

difficult to write down the stuff he said. And it wouldn't seem funny on the page. It wouldn't seem funny coming out of anyone else's mouth. But he inhabits it so completely, very exciting. So he's on the 10th. On the 11th, we have the boy with tape on his face, which I cannot wait for. And on the 12th, the wonderful Rob Broderick from Abandon Man, he's going to be talking to us as well. 17th, 18th, 19th, we've got Pappies, we've got Hannibal Burris and the fabulous Eddie Pepitone. I'm struggling not to say, all of these people are brilliant. Just take my word for it. They're all amazing. And on the 24th, Rod Gilbert, the 25th, Terry Alderton, and the last show on the 26th, a special mystery guest.

Those are all at the Gilded Balloon at 1215. You can get tickets via the website, Comedianscom. Of course, I can't let you go without mentioning my own show, Prick, which is 7.30pm at the Pleasence Courtyard. I really enjoyed saying Prick then. My own show, Prick. 7.30 p.m. at the Pleasance Courtyard. I think that's going to be a lot of fun. And keep listening at the end

for some other recommendations of other people's shows that I think you'd really enjoy at the fringe. Now, please, oh, not please. I just thought to myself, should I stop and edit this? I don't have time. I've got to get a train to Edinburgh. Please enjoy the rest of my chat with Liam Malone.

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So when, so to look at the writing of that, when that exchange took place between you and this other comedian and it lodged somewhere, what's the next step in the process for you? Do you just go on stage and talk about what you're angry about, or do you make a note of it, or do you sort of try and pick it apart and write funny things around it? What's the next move? Well, I'll probably sort of mull it over and over and over on the train ride home or whatever, and then when I get home, I'll try and put it into some sort of form on a page. Okay.

And when you're minding typing there, so you're, this is, you mean like, I'm just interested in all the little details. like what colours your notebook, you know what I mean? So you come back and you use a, you write on a computer most often. Yes, I'd write here. If anything with a small screen I can't write on and I can't, I kind of forgotten how, I think a lot of people have forgotten how to use handwriting these days. Yeah, I really have.

Do you know what, I wrote the other day, I wrote the letters at AT, and I went, oh, that's weird, because I've always, whenever I've been writing, I've just abbreviated it to the at symbol. Yes. And I just kind of looked at him and oh that looks wrong Yeah And I can't I mean like Henning is always

Fucking You know Dictophoning Which I find very impressive But I can't do that It's No I just have to keep it I keep it in my head

You sort of keep it cooking And you just rephrase it in your head And then by the time you By the time I type it It's usually sort of half There Um Because it's mostly

It's the rhythm of the words, isn't it, more than what the words say. It has to come out. It has to have a sort of... Talk to me about that. Well, it's, you know, if you read a sentence

thing, that's a beautiful sentence. That will be more than the sum of its parts. It won't be it might have good words in it and it might be formed around a very interesting thought. But if you, when you went

you have those moments that's a beautiful sentence it's because of the rhythm of the sentence and if you were to actually break it down you would find that it probably you know probably conform to some sort of iambic

rhythm okay okay so and thus for comedy you mean as well in order to get a laugh from it or in order to say the thing that you mean well like what's what's your predominant what's your overriding concern

to take this thing and make it funny or to say what did is that you mean, which is the most important? I ask, because you strike me out, and you're always described as uncompromising. Am I? Yes, I think if he was uncompromising. I've read a review of you that said you're uncompromising.

I think that's a... Oh, I've compromised more than I can possibly explain. Well, maybe when normal people say... I have two children. I'm a monument to compromise. But you say what you mean. You're not afraid to... you're not afraid to say

Tim Minchin pisses you off I don't know how much you bump into Tim Minchin in your daily life come on I'm not going to meet Tim Minchin but if I do I'm quite happy to tell him he doesn't care he's a millionaire no absolutely I will

he may not care but you know maybe that specific example is a side track but you know what I mean it's like you don't really seem to care what people think do you think that's true no I do care what people think because as I said

I've always been very, because I've always been very shy. And, you know, I've often come away from conversations going, oh, that ended a bit weirdly. And I'd have to, you know, run it through my head over and over and over again, thinking, did I say that in the wrong way? And just, and I think being kind of OCD, which I was, having to analyze everything, I'd have to worry about every exchange with every human being I ever met.

I did kind of reach a point where I was just so exhausted that I had to say, I just don't care, I just don't care and, you know, if people know me then they know that I'm not malicious and if I've pissed them off I have to just not worry about it too much but you know I do because I'm still very OCD and I still think oh God I'm upset

I hate upsetting people without meaning to. It really annoys me. Yeah, I hate upsetting people without meaning to. That's a very specific qualifier, isn't it? I'm quite happy to piss people off because I think they're dicks. But nine times out of ten, I usually annoy someone for reasons that I have no idea about. I don't even realize it's happening. And I just realize they're not talking to me anymore or not booking me anymore.

That's usually what happens. and I have no idea what happened there. But I do get very annoyed. I get very annoyed with how cowardly a lot of comedians are. They just, you know. That's, I mean, I... Go on. Well, there's comedians who call themselves political,

well, they don't discuss anything that's difficult. They just say, oh, Cameron, he's a cunt. Yeah, well, that's, you know, most people agree with you. Yeah. It's, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm not totally on the side of, because I think people like Steve Bennett think that comedy ought to be about constantly pushing out envelopes and constantly finding new ground to cover. And I don't think that's what it's all about.

but I I don't know I think you either do it as a job or you do it because of some sort of messianic impulse and if you're not if you're not doing it to support the wife and kids

which I'm not because it doesn't I have to do it for the other reason so if you're going to do it for that reason I think you have to I think you have to be you know absolutely a bit of a zealot about what you're doing. So do you...

But I'm talking entirely to myself because I was just so fucking afraid for so long about saying anything that was... contentious or made a point. That's interesting because I've seen you around the circuit. I've gigged with you occasionally over the last... I mean, I've been going seven years.

I've probably bumped in. to you five years ago and you never struck me as someone that was trying to please or trying to avoid contentiousness or something like that do you think that's is it as clear cut as that is it more that you're now or i mean has it been a kind of a journey towards saying whatever the hell you want or has it been is there some moment that's changed more recently where you've gone actually i can't be bother with this anymore when when was that moment i well i um just before um when I started writing last year's show, um,

it just started as an experiment and then it was just so much easier. And we sort of, we never see ourselves as other seers. But, but when I read reviews describing me when I was doing my other sort of stuff, I just, I just,

I read these reviews and think that's not me. Is that really talking about me? But then when I read reviews when I'm doing the sort of pissed off, don't give a fuck. staff. I read the reviews. I think, yeah, they've got me pretty well. I'm not annoyed by it. Sure. I don't think I'm quite as...

What sort of things were the previous reviews saying that made you annoyed? Who you felt didn't represent you? Oh, you're asking now, it's... I don't know. I don't know. That's like when you have an argument with a girlfriend. And you go, you're always doing that to me. And she goes, When? When have I? I don't know.

Fine, fine. I'm not trying to catch you out. I didn't write it. But it would just sort of be... I would always keep getting described in terms of the fact that I used to dig graves and I used to be an obituist. Yes. And say that, oh, you know,

oh, he's as grumpy as you'd expect a grave dig. And I wasn't being grumpy. I was being fucking sunshine, trying to be. And I thought, well, I'm trying to be quite upbeat. and I was doing, you know, stories about jellyfish and mice and... You know, the usual upbeat topics. Upbeat whimsical things. And I thought, really, you just keep coming back to the grave digging and the obituaries.

And I thought, well, fuck it. I'll just be, you know... I'll just mind the will-self part of my mind. And then at least you'll both be on the same page. What do you mean exactly by the Will Self part? Well, I picked him because he used to be a grave digger. Okay, okay. But I mean, I didn't know that, but there is, there's, like I think of Will Self as someone who is very, very literate, very verbose, who might be opinionated, who might see a darkness in the world or be able to describe a darkness that other people can't see.

And those things seem to chime with how I see you. It just seems like a particularly apposite example to talk about the Will's side. self part of your mind? Yeah. Yeah, well I went to see Will Self at the literary festival at Edinburgh last year and it was a kind of warning because it was like, I mean everyone was laughing along to everything he said going, hi, very clever. But there were times where you thought, oh God, you're just so vanishing up yourself. And it's like, when you write that densely, you just, I mean, you couldn't approach that density in comedy. anyway

but there are times where I look at the audience and I think fucking hell I'm not doing material that lives and breathes I'm just I'm like one of those

fucking machines that mix wet concrete and I'm just pouring it out over people and yeah he is I do think to myself it's all getting a bit of self

um um because it's just, I, you know, I do, I've sort of accepted, and it's taken 10 years that I'm doing the sort of shows that people, a lot of people will just hate, they'll either just, they'll get the wrong and it's, it first happened at the end of the Road Festival where somebody started tweeting everyone saying that I was a hate-filled snob and an enemy of the people

and that he was going to do everything he could to make sure I never played that festival again and my first impulse was to tweet him back saying I think you've sort of not understood that it's comedy okay I don't actually believe every word that I

say when I say that kids should be shot in the legs for rioting I don't actually want to get out of do it myself. Okay. I'm just putting it out there. How would the rest of that gig gone down? But then I thought to myself. Go on.

Everyone else got it. Yes, well, that's what I was going to ask. But it is a very liberal Guardian Reedy kind of festival. So it kind of, you know, it kind of jarred. It was kind of meant to because it was, you know,

you'd like, it's good to have variety at this sort of thing. Then I thought to myself, this is actually a brilliant reaction. This is actually exactly. what I should be getting, people ought to be allowed to misunderstand it. Yeah. Because it just makes, you know, if I can get to the point where I can actually draw a crowd

and then they do divide into two camps, then the camp that does get it are going to feel a lot more clever about themselves. So you feel happy to... I actually felt that he understood me better than people who try and write nice reviews, and just bang on about things that are irrelevant. Okay. He understood you because because he made him angry.

Well, at least he bothered to have... I mean, he left before the end when... I do a lot of stuff where people are thinking, oh, this is awful. And then there's a de Nume on and they go, oh, yeah. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Fair enough. He left before that happened.

Okay, all right. Which is always a problem. If you do a show where, you know, the beginning and the end, chime off each other, If they miss either end of it, it's always a problem. But still, I thought, you know, fair enough. If that's how you want to see it, that's absolutely fine.

I don't mind being a fascist. And I'd rather be called a fascist than boring, which is how people used to react to my attempts at intellectual whimsy. So your new show Born of what more stuff that you didn't dare say Or I mean what's the relationship between your new show The one you're writing now I mean is it, I say writing

Is it written? Is it finished or are you Well the last show I was just trying to run through all the things you couldn't say Like Islam there was a bit about women generally that was a very portentous description of that but it's sort of played with the idea of

um um um well it's sort of it's sort of played off the idea of that you know various people who've said that women are are fantastic and that they are the stronger species the more intelligent species

that if they ruled the world they would have done such a better job in the last 200,000 years of civilisation and it was agreeing with that wholeheartedly and then contrasting that to Watford High Street on a Saturday night where all you see is people embedding their fingernails in each other's eyes

just this horrible montage of vomit and thighs and claws and saying you know try and look at that and say yeah these people should rule the world and it was playing with that deeply misogynistic idea but saying sometimes you have to ignore

the evidence of your eyes sometimes we can't be empirical because I think women are greater than men despite all the evidence we're seeing every weekend and that was that was a way

of saying sometimes we have to believe in things even if you can't believe them whether they're God or love or you know team GB's chances

in the Olympics you just have to believe sometimes that was but I was taking I was discussing everything you're not supposed to talk about in trying to make some sort of point of it

like racism, misogyny, Islam whereas this year it's just about the idea that some people aren't allowed to talk about some things like white people

aren't supposed to talk about racism makes everyone instantly uncomfortable and you know and people like me with my voice aren't supposed to on stage and say that the working class are a bit rubbish. And how have you...

But you are if you're working class. People have said to me, you can't go all posh boy and say the working class are a bit rubbish. If you were working class, then you might get away with it. And I was like, well, how are the working class supposed to know that they're a bit rubbish? They don't have the education. Just pushing those things as far as they can. And the idea that people without children, aren't allowed to say,

well, I don't think there is a problem with paedophilia. How do you know? You haven't got children? That kind of mum's net. Sure. Mania that has gripped a lot of parents. And it's just that really. And it's just, it's about, because, you know,

I think that Britain is pretty fantastic in many ways. And I think that we are kind of crippled by shame and a sense of shame for our past and shame about whether you can say this or you can't say that and I kind of when I had children I suddenly felt really angry not because children had ruined my life

but because I thought well I've accepted this for myself this sense of post-colonial shame but I'm not going to accept it for them they don't even understand these things They don't know yet that they haven't assumed that black and white people are different in any way. But they're going to have to learn. They're going to have to be told at some point that everyone is equal,

even though they would, left to their own devices, assume that. And they're going to have to be told that there's a problem because we used to run the world and now we don't and everything. and, you know, and this complex, awful thing. And it's just, the whole show was like, how can we feel good about being British without, and get away from this, just this centuries of awkwardness and shame? Because I start discussing racism at one point,

and then I go, look, you're all looking very, you're all staring at the ground, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, I don't mind comedians discussing racism, but I'd rather it was coming from Shabby or Sandy, to be honest. I mean, not that she's any less English than you.

She's absolutely the same amount of English as you are. It's just that she's brown, and that makes it... Is she brown? I haven't noticed that she's brown. Someone told me that she might be brown. Is this making it worse? It's making it worse now. And just trying to make those interior monologues

exterior and saying, like, what the fuck? haven't we reached the third age yet I mean yes we know that they're a racist but amongst fucking decent normal well-adjusted people we should be past this we should be moving past this because it's just

it's getting to the point where I just I just thought I was so many people in comedy are trying to mine the same narrow strip of fertile land that's okay to talk about, all this stuff, those vast acres and fields and tundra that is untilled because no one wants to go near it. Um, do you think there is a, a commercial place for that sort of stuff?

Commercial place. Yeah, do you think that... It's never going to fly at jungle. Well, that's kind of what I'm asking, yeah. Um, so... But you are motivated more, by a desire to say the unsaid things or to till that untouched tumbar than you are to play you know than to play commercial clubs yeah yeah i mean i have stuff that you know i played a rugby club the other day and it's fine i've got stuff that works there sure um but what i'm interested doing and for doing shows i want to i think every comedian that i really like, on some level, is driven to try and make the world a better place, as wanky as that sounds, but there is some kind of impulse to improve things.

Could you give me some examples of who you mean? I'm not asking for your work, yeah, prove it. What I'm saying is, who do you mean? Who on the circuit do you think is an example of that? Who do you find inspiring, or do you find? Oh, God, that really is. We can cut out all of the thinking time and make you sound very... Well, I'll just go to the most extreme example.

I mean, you know, someone like Doug Stanhope, you know, he just seems to be a drunken, bitter cunt. But at the heart of it, I think he's saying, you people who think you're making the world better are actually just making things worse. Whether, you know, whether they're Christian fundamentalists saying that, you know, that severely disabled shouldn't be allowed to die. or people, you know, trying to make drugs illegal for the sake of our children. You know, they're actually, he's basically saying that you take the broader picture, there's some effect on society is negative. And, you know, that's kind of what I'm trying to do. But I've realised I can't ever be as,

blunt as he is because I wouldn't get away with it I don't think I don't think you can start doing comedy and have that kind of style you kind of have what I like about Doug stand-up is he never explains he says something that might be

you could take to be racist you kind of have to trust him that it isn't and go with the joke whereas in England I think you have to kind of explain yourself as you go along yes you've got to put disclaimers in I don't mean to say blah blah blah blah because you can't

you can't everyone is just so they've got this kind of McCarthyist fucking red scare going on in liberal comedy where people kind of assume that you're racist unless you prove otherwise and I've done whole things where people have said well if you put that at the end they'll have liked you by then

they'll have trusted you by then and so I've put the dangerous bit at the end and you know what they haven't they haven't trusted me they've gone along with it they've decided they like me And then they go, oh, hang on. Hang on a minute. Is this like that thing that happened?

We've been entrapped. Is this like that thing that happened when I visited Australia and I talked to someone who seemed really nice? And then he just suddenly came out with this horrific bit of racial abuse. And you can't. People are so wary. And so what I'm having to do is construct a whole show where it's like, where actually the de Numaumont is so,

Well, if we're not racist, then how about this for a solution? Okay. I don't need to give the game away because we're all going to come see yourself. It is trying to just stretch being PC as far as it will go until it breaks and say, well, okay, shall we all live like this? because at the end of the day I mean I've always thought that racism is a kind of

it's a kind of stupidity isn't it I mean and it's a weird kind of stupidity because people say you know because you can't it's not something that is defeated through learning like it's simplistic

to say oh when everyone's educated when we have the kind of education system that we that we ought to have, then nobody will be racist. But it's not like that. Racists are kind of people who learned a very small part, a very small bit of info a long time ago, and it's inoculated them against learning anything else. People who genuinely, people who have had no schooling at all, who have grown up in council estates where black and white people play football on the same, they seem to be fine.

And people who are really well educated, and have learned through facts that all people are created equal, they're fine as well. It's just people in the middle who've done a little bit of schooling and have learned a little bit that are just, you know, they're the ones that tend to soak up what the Daily Mail says, although that's a bad example because that is the biggest selling newspaper amongst ethnic minorities.

Is that right? It is. And it is a complex, it is complex, it's a very complex thing. But it does seem to me that people who have had no schooling, they seem to be pretty cool, and people who have had lots, they're pretty cool. But it's everyone in the middle, most people in the middle are sort of, thankfully, after what new labour has done to our education system, we're now less racist than we ever have been,

because people are so stupid now. or they're very well educated because they've had to find family money to know anything the middle is just disappearing and that's kind of a benefit from Tony Bear's campaign of public stupefation stupefaction stupefaction

Although I should point out you just called him Tony Bear Tony Bear That's because we were just talking about Paddington You just talk about Paddington, I mean Yeah, so who's stupefied now, Lou? Well, can you imagine if he was Tony Bear? He was an immigrant from Peru, and he had a big floppy hat. Wouldn't you just have more respect for him when he whitted on about immigration?

You'd say, well, fair enough, you are an immigrant, Tony Bear. So anyway, Yeah, this, the latest fringe show is about saying what you, what you personally aren't supposed to talk about. Like, you're this, and therefore, it's about fighting predeterminism, really. And I sort of rail about things like EastEnders, because I think that as a programme where, because the producers say it's all about family. It's about strong family bonds.

Yeah. And all it is, is parents passing down the idea that because they achieve nothing, you won't achieve anything either. And it's absolutely, you know, that is one thing. Because this country has no social mobility. And I think things like that are absolute fucking poison. There was a storyline recently where this little girl was going to go to Costa Rica. And a family are going, you don't want to do that. You don't want to do it. What's that good is that going to do you? You want to do this? And there was another bit where someone's going out with Derek's niece, and he's saying, I want to go travelling. He's saying, you don't want to do that.

You can't go out with my daughter, if you're going to go travelling. And it's just part of the story. I know it's just part of the story. Yeah. But there's this overwhelming sense of, no, no one leaves Albert Square. No one goes on to achieve something better than Albert Square. And if you do, and if you try, you will be punished. That's the kind of morality.

And you feel that's being disseminated to the viewers of East Day. That is just fucking pumped out there. Yeah. By the BBC, by some Oxbridge cunt who has thought, well, that's the way it is with the working class. That's the way it has to be. And subconsciously, I think that's the way we want to keep them. And it's just awful.

I think EastEnders does more damage than the BNP could ever do. in a million years because the BNP are a fucking joke and they are a straw man when I hear comedians bang on about the BNP how easy is that I mean

you're not going to find anyone in the audience that disagrees with you and if they do you don't care what they think anyway and it's just you really want to win points by saying Nick Griffin is a cunt I mean we know he's a cunt

he knows he's a cunt but you know talk about you talk about You know, talk about something that genuinely is affecting us. You know, like, I just, you know, when they were trying to put through this ID card scheme, you know, it was just going to, to me, was the closest step towards fascism. I think this country's ever made. I think Tony Blair's government.

was the closest to fascism we've ever come and I know a lot of people disagree with me but there's so much whatever side of the political fence you're on there's so much around us that's real to get angry about

that when I see a so-called political comedian just going on about the BNP when they don't even hold any fucking seats anymore and it's like you know just get angry about something real and do you think that's a lack of research on people, is that so-called political comedians

aren't aiming high enough? I think that a lot of comedians who call themselves political want the audience to agree with them. And once they fall in that trap, they're not political comedians. Because you can't be a politician

wanting everyone to agree with you. Okay. You can't be a political comedian with that mindset either. Sure. You have to be prepared. for, you know, if you, if you're like a socialist, then you have to be prepared to go to, you know,

wooden bass it and, and say, you know, I think the, this fucking, what we're doing in Iraq or Afghanistan is, it's completely wrong. You have to be prepared for people to suck air through their teeth and touch at you. You have to be prepared. If it's what you believe, then you have to export it. and do it, you know, everywhere. So with relation to your comedy and the stuff that you're writing at the moment, saying the unsayable, saying the things, or not the unsayable, but saying the things

that you would naturally edit, what do you see being the end point of that? What's the goal of that, ultimately? Is that something you're doing for this show, or is that a change in the way you see your comedy from now on? It's the way I'm going to do shows from now on, yeah. but it's, you know, there's two sides to comedy, isn't it? There's being who you want to be

and there's trying to make a living. Sure. So, you know, my stuff that discusses racism and discusses the sort of glib liberal attitude that we're fine. There are, most comedy audiences, as a mindset, their thing is, we're fine, we're not racist, but there are racists out there

and we want to laugh at them. And what I'm trying to do is saying, really, are you not racist? What about this? Have you ever done that? Okay. And it's like, you know, don't be glib. Let's look at the darkness in ourselves. And that makes people very uncomfortable.

Do you think there's a way to be able to do that kind of stuff in a commercial club on a Saturday night? Do you aim for doing that? Do you think anyone does that? No. don't think you can. I don't, I really don't think you can. And I think that's where it just comes down to,

well, let's just, let's just get the check in our hands and get out of the door in one piece. Although, you know, I try, I do the lighter stuff. Like, I discuss the girlfriend who thought everyone was racist, except her. I talk about her and, you know, how she used to say, I'm the least racist person I've ever met. I don't, I don't know who's, you know, who's, you know, who ought to be able to judge that

it's probably a black person and she didn't know any so we didn't find out and I just play with that idea of how we like to think that we're all so sorted but you know there's a huge number of guardian reading

white people who never spoken to a black person that's the way it is and they think themselves well if I ever did I'm sure we'd get on great and I'm sure sure they would and that's brilliant. But it's, I want to explore the fact that they, you know.

So, so do you feel that your, your persona on stage is more refined now? Do you feel it's closer to what you're actually like off stage? Is it what, what's the, what's the difference between other than the fact of performance?

What's the difference between you now and you on stage? Are you very close to that to your persona? Yeah. Yeah, I'd say it was pretty much... I mean, I go too far on stage, that's the whole point of it. You go to the point... You pursue an idea until it collapses.

That's what a lot of comedy is, and that's what I do. And so I'm saying, you know, how unracist do you want to be? Do you want to be this and racist? And, you know, up until we have a police state arresting people for being racist, which is pretty much what Tony Blair wanted to do and that's the point isn't it where it's if we respect

if we truly respect each other as you know equal in the eyes of God then you have to credit people with intelligence and grant them freedom because it's like I don't want to be I don't want to be

non-homophobic because I'll be arrested if I'm homophobic. I want to be not homophobic because I don't want to be, because that's not me. And we came very close to crossing that line under Tony Blair. And the hate speech laws that he's passed but have never yet been tested. You know, they're still on the statute books,

and they still threaten to turn us into a country of people who respect one another because we have to, which is no kind of respect. Sure. I don't want to be not racist because I might be arrested. I want to be not racist because I'm not racist. And that kind of idea is kind of hard to put across sometimes. Sure. Do you think, I mean, we're talking about some quite complicated things here,

and do you think it's simply that they're too complicated for the stage or they're too complicated for a 20? Well, what I try and do is take that and, turn it into a quick story about a girlfriend who was also a bit frigid and put some swearing in and then that's it. This is now palatable. That is the distillation,

the reverse distillation process by which I try and forge a career. But it is, it is, it is tough. But, you know, I don't, I hope that, obviously you're going to edit this down, and I hope this doesn't come out sounding like I'm totally up my ass, and I think I'm some sort of pioneer who's, you know, going where no one else dares to go, because that's absolutely not the case.

I totally, so far behind, you know, comics who are really genuinely brave and who I really do admire, all I'm saying is that I realized it was actually, easier to talk about the bit of a git that I am rather than trying to do this facade of being Mr Liberal lovely that everyone wants to think, wants themselves to be perceived as. It's just, it was just easier in the end. And because every, the comment, the crowd always knows you're in a truth from the moment you step on stage.

like, I, like many of people, have said, I can't, won't, aren't allowed to play jonglers because they're stupid. And yes, they are stupid, but they're only intellectually stupid. On a basic instinct level, they're fucking sharp.

And if you walk on the stage and you're... They, you mean, the crowd, the audience, yeah. If you step on a stage and you're scared of them, they know instantly. And if you step on a stage and you're trying to be cheerful, and you're not feeling cheerful, they know instantly. And if you step on a stage and try to be their friend when you've got nothing in common with them,

they know that instantly. And so I found that if I go on stage of junglers and say, all right, you drunken bunch of pointless, uneducated cunts, they're fine, absolutely fine. Because they'll laugh at that and they'll go, well, yeah, we're not going to get on in real life. but this isn't real life.

That's a really good point. And as long as you're being honest with them, they respect you for that. And you respect them for being able to get over that. And the relationship works. We were talking about writing for other comedians. Is that something you don't? Yes, yes.

I've just finished helping out Andrew Lawrence on his stand-up for the week run. Okay, and is that public knowledge you're allowed to say that? I don't think he'll be allowed to say that. My name's on the credits. Oh, there we are, fine. Okay, cool, and he's been doing stand-up for the week. Yeah, everyone on that gets assigned some writers.

Okay. Someone with the same. With a reasonable outlook, because that sort of thing is all about, you know, but you can get on with a person. And you see eye-to-eye with them. um before that i i worked on uh henning show uh henning knows best okay um in which he discussed various aspects of uh of life in britain um and that was interesting because basically if i come up with a joke that is too right wing for me to get away with saying i i'd just

give it to henning and he can say anything okay because people just think he can't possibly mean Yes, of course. It's couched within that persona, isn't it? If a German meant that, that would just be so awful. Yes. No. Wow. So what form does that take?

Is it you and Henning sitting in a room in an office? What does that describe that to me? It was me and him and Ken Valentine, and we used to just get together. We'd have the first meeting in a pub. That was my idea, because I'd come up with so much more if I'm drunk. I mean, that's a thing about writing as well that I haven't discussed. I drink to excess if I'm writing. Okay.

Because that's the only way I get over my sort of blank page fear. I don't drink socially anymore at all, not since the kids came. Okay. So you drink as a writing tool? You drink alone as a writing tool? Yeah, totally alone. At university, I could only write an essay if I lock myself in the toilet with a bottle of vodka. And I got into a habit there.

Okay. And it's what I do now. I feel like I should have some disclaimer if there's newer acts listening to this. This is a very unique... We urge you to try your own. Listen to your doctor's advice. Well, if they're newer acts, they'll probably be young

and they won't be set in bad habits yet. So, you know, they can avoid this. Okay. But I've just... I loved university so much. There was just always so much to do. Writing an essay was just so much the last thing I wanted to do that it was just...

I had to reward myself. I work on a system of rewards. Like if I write another two paragraphs, I'll roll a spliff. Or if I write another two paragraphs, I'll have another drink. Okay. And it was just getting myself through it like that. And then was there another... But it was a race against time because I would have to finish...

Well, this is it? Before I was absolutely fucked. It would reach that point of perfection where I was just in a brilliant flow. If I could just keep it there and it would... Can I ask what class degree you left with? Oh, a Desmond. Okay, right. I'd love you to say a first, a clistening first.

Well, no, it would have been a... Do you know what? It would have been a very high-to-one. But I went to a Scottish university where a large percentage of the final mark is a continuous assessment and attendance. I see. And my attendance was fucking lousy.

I did brilliantly in all the exams. Yeah. And in the essay writing, but my attendance. And they even mock you on your attitude. Really? Yeah. Does that not inspire you to have a worse attitude? Do you know what I mean?

It doesn't have a feeling that you're being? If I can do this work without going to the lectures, surely that's better. That makes me better. Better for everyone, better for me. So when you meet with, or you have met with Kent and with Henning. Yes. And then what's, like, you're throwing ideas around? Does Henning say, this is the subject?

How would that be? He'd have a rough thing that he started with, and we'd say, well, how about this? And we'd write around it. And, yeah. And then I'd gradually try and get Henning to do more of my stuff and less of things. And then he'd take it away and put it in his voice? What would the process? Yeah, he'd always sort of henningize it, of course.

And it would, uh, but it was, if it was, it was. It was very, it was a lot of fun and it was very, very rewarding to be able to say some, get, well, you're not, to just get some really quite dodgy ideas out there, especially on the BBC. Because it was just such, I thought it was just such a breath of fresh air, someone saying, that sort of thing on the BBC. And yeah, it was, it was made, it was made potent. by him being German but hopefully

there'll be a second series of that because there's a lot more that I think he can talk about So with Andrew's stuff are you writing topical jokes for him obviously stand up for the week he's early? Well he's

the last one is going to be this weekend but yeah it's what's been in the news over the past week but he has to specifically do global news. Okay. So he's kind of at a disadvantage

in that it's recorded at the Clapham Grand and everyone's a bit lairy. And he has to kind of explain the news before he can make jokes about it because they already know about Simon Cowell and they know about the voice and they know about sport. But they don't know what's going on in Syria.

Sure. And if you want to make jokes about that, you have to really... Show them a picture? Yeah. Yeah. and what kind of process is that when you're writing with Andrew is that a similar sort of thing are you do you is it a collaborative thing do you send him stuff yeah that's me and that's me and

martin treneman um and uh he he has a very clear he's very um clear about what he wants to say and we just kind of talk around the subject and uh but he's also very strict that he only He ever wants to talk about one subject per episode. Okay. So we have to really mine it. That's a good idea, I think. Do you think? Yeah, he didn't want to, he didn't sort of want to do, you know,

a sort of tabloid puff stories. Yes. To do actually meaty. Get a thing and get some out of it, yeah. Yeah. Drill down as far as possible. And is that, are those the only people you've worked with? How did you get into working with Henning in the first place?

Did he approach you? Yeah, I can't remember how I started working I've been friends with Henning for years and years So it kind of just happened gradually But we're trying to sort of Come up with a sort of sitcom idea from To Bein For Henning For Henning? Oh my God

I'd love to see Henning in a sitcom I just love Henning I just love everything about Henning Yes he has a very good good uh has a very good little selling point although you see the latest fringe brochure so you're full of germans now yes yeah everyone's doing a german's guide to this and they're all saying oh you didn't think germans could do comedy well it's me yeah actually we kind of did now yeah we knew we found out a while again but uh yeah i don't think he feels terribly threatened

is there anything is it ever frustrating when you're writing with someone is it all a positive process. Do you go, no, you should do this and then you get overruled? Well, Paul Jackson, who has produced many wonderful things, like worked on the Young Ones and Red Dwarf and Legal Gentleman, he asked Hills Barker to write a futuristic sitcom based on her fringe show, and she, bless her, to her eternal, discredit asked me to help out on that and we just couldn't agree on anything

because neither of us owned it like if she'd written it and then said can you improve on that that would have been a way to go forward but she wanted it to be totally half and half and it just didn't maybe it works for some people but it just didn't work for us

and we did like 17 version we wrote so much we wrote enough for five whole series, just trying to distill a first... God. Okay. A first episode. When we finally got

this, and they had to keep extending our deadline, he gave us more money. It was like, and we just felt like we were squabbling kids in the end, and I think either one of us could have written a really good script.

It's just together. The dynamic just didn't work. We... We just... had too many ideas and we just wanted to fight for them too much and I think

even though that was only 2009 I think I've grown up quite a lot since then possibly from having children but also from realizing what I'm about comedically and you just have to go just stop being

a dick. Stop trying to put everything you've ever thought onto the page especially on episode one series one I wrote a sort of sci-fi thing for the BBC 7 new writing thing maybe four or five years ago with my friend Hutch

and we we were like this is our chance let's put everything in this so we handed in this 15 minute sitcom pilot that had 10 plots it's ridiculous yeah I think that is a mistake to be made

you just hope you get that chance to again to avoid that mistake but it's so I don't know my lessons are always very hard learned

it's like you know my first my first Edinburgh I was in the Pleasance courtyard I may never get to be there again and I did a show that was too complicated you know I got 20s at the comedy store

much too soon before I was really ready before I'd played that size crowd anywhere else and a couple of them weren't so great and I haven't been back there for a while Why do you think that was that you got them so soon

because you had a flavour that was different because you think you've got to push yourself you've got to push yourself and if someone says do you think you'd be able to manage that oh yeah oh yeah no problem because you don't get any kudos for going not really ready for that yet you never turn down on something in comedy

because you think you're not good enough do no one ever does that if you want to support Michael McIntyre yeah come back to me in two years because I think I'll be ready then yeah it's not going to work is it I mean you know

you know in your hearts it would be 2,000 people just slow clapping you're going my God my God but do you let that no you go yeah I could do that probably blow him off stage that's it

I'll cut everything just that what the hell what the hell is that that is from my 2007 my first fringe show

which involved my my nephew dressing up as the black rabbit of inlay from are you familiar with Watership Down and all oh yeah well I know

I've not seen this until I was a kid, but I was familiar with it at the time. And that show was fucking rubbish because I made it too complicated. There was too many ideas. It was called Health and Safety. And it was about how,

I mean, that was an early... It was about how sort of health and safety culture, just being scared of everything, being so very risk-averse, is actually destroying our freedom and destroying our human. humanity but I tried to make a parallel with uh in all ship down there's this Warren called Ephrafa where they're so scared of being eaten by a fox that no one's

allowed out of the borough okay and so they're like well we're alive but we're not living as rabbits or yes sure okay and I tried to make this parallel and it was I should have just done a stand-up show okay about what I wanted to talk about without trying to tie it to something that then had to be explained. Yes, if you are going to make a parable, then it's got to be about something that people know about already. I fall prey to that all the time, trying to say, you know this, you know this thing that you don't know very well.

It's kind of like this other thing. Yeah, becoming mired in concept. Yeah. And so that rabbit head sits there, along with the prototype up there. Nice. As a reminder to fucking keep it simple. For the benefit of the listener,

this evil-looking golden-eyed. black feathery rabbit head is balanced on the top of a tiny guitar and staring constantly at Liam Malone's back as he works. Yes, that is the black rabbit of Inlay, who represents death, of course.

You will die. You will die if you don't keep it simple. That's what he says. So that was Liam Malone. I think that was another great one. for listening. I've asked Liam for a link to get tickets for the storytelling festival for his resurrection of the show A Dead Man's Hat, so I'd be fascinated

to hear that. I've not got the link from him yet, so as soon as I get it, I'll put it up on the website at www.commodion'scommodion. Presumably you could also Google it if you had the way with all. My couple of other recommendations for the Edinburgh Festival, please go and see the following people. Nick Helm doesn't need my help. He doesn't need any recommending from me. He's just a genius. I might, yeah, I will definitely get Nick on the show before long and I nearly go something away there, but I won't say that. Nick Helm is superb and his band are also superb. Go and see that show, I certainly will. Go and see the wonderful Nish Kumar.

It's his debut year, as it is for Danny McLaughlin, both very, very funny guys on their first hours this year. Mark Olver is doing a show called Dancing About Architecture, which is similar to this one, but not as good. But he has three. three guests, and it's a very different sort of format. Go and see Mark. He's fab. Lloyd Langford, I was lucky enough to gig with last weekend and have a drink with afterwards. Lloyd is just, he's just head and shoulders above so many other comedians at his level, and it won't be long until Lloyd is on household namesstasis. Such a nice dude and so naturally funny. The same can also be said of Mr James Acaster, so go and catch James wherever you can.

Go and see Slap Dash Galaxy by Bunk Puppets. This is Jeff Actam, who's an old street-performing buddy of mine and now rightly lorded as the man who has reinvented shadow puppetry. There's no real way to describe it. It's like a junk shadow puppet show with a clown in it. It's for adults. It's for kids. It's funny. There's an incredible special effect at the end of this show. This was the guy who did 3D shadow puppetry last Edinburgh in Swamp Juice, which if you missed that, he's also reprising that, I believe, at the other belly. Um, top secret comedy with a fabulous Pete Dobbing and a variety of guests is at Whistlebinkies, Whistlebinkies, nightly at 6.30pm. Uh, Simon Evans, is the guy who, it was basically him that accidentally gave me the idea for the whole show

for this podcast. Go and see Simon Evans. He is legendarily good. I caught sheep's. I've not seen them before. They've got their second year now. Sheep's a brilliant sketch show with Liam Williams and some other guys, Jono and someone else. Forgive me for not remembering your name. Saw them at latitude and I was, I just had that incredible sense of excitement you get from seeing a new thing and going, oh my God, this is a new thing. This is great. And the same is also apparently said of Ben Tajay, and I haven't seen Ben yet. I've met him, he's lovely, and I'm very much like the sound of what he gets up to. So that's kind of a, that's only a half recommendation because I've not seen it, but I'm very confidently expecting to enjoy that.

And finally, Nick Mohamed, he's just, he just tends to be the best thing I see every year at Edinburgh. So go and see Nick Mohamed. It's a sequel to his Mr. Swallow show from a few years ago. That's all the recommendations. That's the show. Have a great three weeks off. Try not to dump me and go and listen to other podcasts. No, do. Listen to everything. It's fine. It's totally fine. I've got to get over that terrible comedian thing of going, only listen to my output. I'm special. Go and fill your minds with stuff. I'm going to do the same and I'll speak to you in September. Come up to Edinburgh, spend money on tickets, go and see people who aren't on telly. Bye. brain-boasting lunchbox staples and low-sugar snack packs.

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