The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - Bilal Zafar

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

Bilal Zafar is an award-winning stand-up comedian who first broke through with a lastminute.com Best Newcomer Award for his debut show, CAKES. He’s now back with Rubicon, a multimedia, interactive hour with games, prizes and stories, promising a genuinely life-changing experience.Bilal has appeared on screen in Catastrophe, Sick of It and Paul Feig's Last Christmas and to many people, he’s known best as a full-time football manager embroiled in scandal on his hugely popular Twitch channel. We discuss:diving headfirst into football management through Twitch in lockdown on Limmy's advice and building an audience through himthe challenge of sustaining momentum after his 2016 best newcomer nomination, and carrying that history into this year's Fringeand touring his debut show Cakes, and filming it for YouTube years later when he had the resources to do sofinding unexpected happiness in a new careerand developing new show Rubicon with Nick Helm, and being pushed to play a more arrogant, less "nice" version of himselfJoin the Insiders Club at Patreon.com/ComComPod where you can instantly WATCH the full episode and get access to exclusive extras where we discuss his 2017 show about online dating underperforming and entering the industry naive to how the ups and downs work.👉 Sign up to the ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok.Catch Up with Bilal: Bilal Zafar: Rubicon is at this year's Edinburgh Fringe at 8.30pm in Jersey at Underbelly, Bristo Square. You can also listen to the Got A Problem Mate Podcast with Bilal and Joey Page.Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod:✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ Exclusive extra content with Bilal✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including weekly(ish) Stu&AsPLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE ON TOUR, find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy. Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.Get in touch: If you’re listening and thinking ‘I’d love to work with ComComPod on getting something out there’ or ‘there’s someone you should absolutely have on’ - drop us an email at [e-mail]! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Stuart here. You can go to Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy for tickets to my national tour. That's right. I'm taking my second ever climate comedy show. It's called Canary. I'm taking it to the Edinburgh Festival for the last two weeks of August at the Monkey Barrel, Cabaret Voltaire. And I shall see you there in the last two weeks of August. And then it's a national tour for this guy. Cambridge, Glasgow, Oxford, Manchester, Cardiff, Maidenhead, Sheffield and Birmingham, culminating in my biggest ever tour show at Bristol Old Vic. Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy for all your tickets. Jude Goldsmith here and I am sequestered in the downstairs lobby of one of my favourite hotels within which to hide whilst having nowhere to be in London when I'm on a visit here. I'm not going to tell you which one because it's one of my very favourites and I don't want you clogging it up. But here's someone who I'm very happy to have clog up. An hour or so conversation. It's literally the worst introduction I've ever done but I'm really up against it, timing wise. This is the charming and delightful. Bilal Zafar. He's an award-winning stand-up comedian. He got Best Newcomer Award back when it was

the last minute.com best newcomer award for his debut show, Cakes, which was completely ridiculous. I saw that one live and it's available on YouTube as well. He's now back at the Edinburgh Festival with Rubicon, which is about the drink Rubicon. It's a multimedia interactive hour with games, prizes and stories, which promises a genuinely life-changing experience. He's also appeared on screen. He's been in Catastrophe, Sick of It and Paul Fige's Last Christmas. And to many people, he's best known as a full-time football manager who is embroiled in scandal on his hugely popular Twitch channel. And I should say, before we go into this, Belal is just delightful. He is so candid about the sort of hits and misses of his career and he's so upfront and honest. And towards the

end of the episode, he drops this wonderful, it's not like a bombshell, it's just something that people don't often talk about. I won't spoil it for you, but it's really, really lovely and honest. And I came away from having not known him well beforehand. I come away from this conversation and I'm sure you will too, re-appraising him and going, what a great dude. So we're going to talk in the first half about discovering comedy through his older brothers and then finding his calling via a showerhead. We'll talk about the challenge of sustaining momentum after his 2016 best newcomer nomination. And we'll talk about touring his debut show, Kate, filming it for YouTube and so on. Support the show. You can do that at patreon.com.com slash comcom pod for extra content with

Belat as well as full video and audio and here he is. Welcome to the show. How are you doing? How's comedy treating you? Yeah, it's, it's up and down. It's, um, something I should tell you first before we get into it is what year did you start this podcast? Ooh. Was it, is it like 20, 12? So, uh, yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah, because I, so, so I I won't ramble too much in this bit, but basically I did a media degree and then I had a bit of the degree which was like a basically a work experience type thing. And I wanted to do stand up at that point in my third year of uni. And I went to the, I was studying near Manchester.

I went to the Manchester Comedy Store and followed the tech around basically, which was great. But it was Rob Deering, who I met for the first time, who was performing. And he told me to listen to the Comedians, Comedian podcast, which was brand new, I think. Was he the first one? He was guest. He was guest number one. He might have just done it. That's mad, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. Ah, that's a nice memory. That's good. Good to know. Did you? Did you listen to it? Yes, I did. Yeah, I've listened to it loads.

I've not listened for a little while because there's just too many podcasts, right? Of course. How many episodes have you done? This will be something like 520. That's mad. It's mad. It's too many. It's too many.

It's too many, and it absorbs my life. and I've got a lot of other things going on now, but I also love it and I don't want to stop. I just love that it has an ongoing thing. And we should talk about this in the context of your ongoing thing. Let's get, let's get stuff. Thank you. It's lovely to hear.

So we'll probably sort of step back and do routes into comedy and stuff in a bit. But my take on where you're at at the moment, I think the last time we had a proper conversation about it was mid-pandemic. Not everyone was on Twitch. You were on Twitch and stuck with it. I was on Twitch for a bit and it kind of did my head in. It wasn't, I'm not a native Twitch person. Yeah, fair enough.

I don't think it's a natural fit. But I remember you saying at the time, I think this is all I'm going to do. We were in that giddy kind of pandemic era of like, oh, you can do this. You don't leave your house. They're all there. You just switch it on and do a gig. And we were all quite sort of, I remember we were very starry-eyed. And I think you in particular would go, I was thinking, I could just have my own chat show from my house and all the rest of it.

And I think, does that, does that? Does that feel like a right fit? Do you remember feeling like that? Do you still feel like that? Yeah. Well, I don't feel like that now. It's really interesting because that time was just mad because like anything in lockdown was basically doing well, wasn't it?

Like people's podcasts and everything, anything anyone was doing was getting more traction than it usually would have, right? Yes. So it was cool. I did have loads and loads of people watching at one point. Like my peak was like over a thousand people watching me live, which was insane. But that didn't last longer. at all. And it really, like, as soon as lockdown ended, it started to go down massively. And then I

tried to gig more, which meant I streamed less. And then I was just losing loads and loads of subscribers. And now I've got like a nice amount of people that watch that I love. But it's not like it was at all. But at the same time, I don't think I don't think I would just want to be a Twitch streamer right now. I don't think that'd suit me. No, it's, and because you came to it, just as we sort of establish you in the mind of the listener who maybe some people don't know much about your work or as much, I feel like you, you were very definitely a successful comic. You were touring in a sort of low-key kind of touring way. You got nominated, did you for newcomer?

So you were like, oh, this guy's worth listening to. He's a con. I remember watching cakes. I feel like it was the crumbling cookie. I think that's right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, in Leicester, yeah. And so you were kind of, this wasn't like, you were.

were randomly starting doing Twitch, you're a legit comic first and foremost. And I'm sort of interested in how comedy sort of served you and what it was about Twitch that started to serve you that might have meant you thought at the time, this is, this is maybe the new direction. Well, with comedy, I mean, it really was. It's so interesting, isn't it? It's like, whatever you, because you can put your stuff out on Instagram and make it appear like you're doing very well all the That's kind of what we all do, isn't it? But like it really feels like since, so I got the nomination,

newcomer nomination in 2016. And it's just, it's been like a steady decline, basically, to be honest. It has, you know. It's just been like less and less stuff,

less TV opportunities, and then less meetings. In terms of like, I always do okay in Edinburgh. In terms of tours, they're not always great. They're very up and down. They're very random.

But obviously, this isn't stuff you say on online. I was going to say I'm appreciating your level of candor. This is very exciting. I don't care about being honest about this stuff because it's so hard and I think it's important people know like it's a mess really, isn't it? It's like the whole thing. I mean like even around like, so it was 10 years ago that I was that I got the nomination. Even like I had so many new friends emerge that kind of went away just after. You know what I mean? I had all of that. I had like the amount of buzz I had was ridiculous.

And I, because when I first did The Fringe, I was 24 years old, and I hadn't been to Edinburgh before, I don't think. And it was all like, I just wanted to do that show. I didn't plan it. It wasn't a strategic thing at all.

It just like amazingly fell into place. And then I got, I honestly didn't know about the awards before. I'd heard of like the Perrier Award. I didn't really know about the newcom stuff. It was all just other comedians started telling me about, it when I started doing well. This is very pure.

I love this. This is a very pure way to do Edinburgh. Yeah. And it will never happen again, right? It's like, it was, yeah, it was amazing. But now obviously you go back, even I'm going to go back up in August.

And I'm always going to have the thing in my head of awards and hopefully get five-star reviews, all of that stuff. But it's such a shame and you can't escape it. Even people that pretend they don't care. Everyone cares, don't they? And so let's, before we, get into like the kind of the the sort of the transformation onto the Twitch stuff which you still do I was

watching um I look back at one of your more recent videos and I tell you what some of the stuff you sent okay I'm um I've just said let's talk about this later and then I've started talking about it I'm gonna try very hard to put a pin in that for now and let's just go back briefly you did this course you're in Manchester and you went to the store as part of like a work experience sort of yeah kind of thing You're taking a, with a view to, I want to get into comedy? Yeah, I wanted to be a comedian. Production. Okay.

No, I wanted to be a comedian at that point. So basically, I grew up with two, my brothers are seven and nine years older than me, my two older brothers. So when I was little, they were teenagers, which meant that I got access to all of the best comedy from when I was really little, right? So even like going into like secondary school, being in like year seven, I remember, everybody being into like Little Britain, which I kind of watched a bit, but I had seen like the day to day and Brass Eye and all of this stuff. So I was like,

you know, so I always felt a bit kind of out of place because of that. So I always had a strong kind of connection to it. And then I decided I wanted to be some kind of comedy writer, but wasn't really sure. And that's why I went off and did a media degree. And then I just had, I literally had like a kind of eureka moment where I was,

I was in the shower holding the shower head and it felt a bit like a microphone. And it just seriously. And it clicked that, oh, I should do that. And it's really weird because I'm a very like, well, it used to be a lot worse, like very sort of shy, very scared, you know. So it's mad that that happened that I decided to do that and did it. It really doesn't make any sense, you know. That's so funny to hear that you think that.

Like, okay, shyness. I mean, I don't associate you with. shiners particularly. You have this, as I mentioned, this very gentle energy, which is very unusual in stand-up. That's nice. That's nice. That's kind of blaring. You're not like, well, it must be nice. My wife always describes it as like most comics have got, if everyone's carrying a torch, like a spotlight, most comics are walking around with it pointed at their own face. And she's like, you've got to remember to point it outwards and see things and notice things about the world. And it feels like you don't, you're not one of those kind of classic comedy kind of like,

I got to be me, I've got to express myself or I've got to be better than or funnier than or kind of like... I've definitely had times. I've definitely had time. I think, right, after the 2016 Edinburgh Fringe, when I got the nomination, I think there were about six months where I was insufferable. I think I must have been so annoying because I really believed all of the hype. And I also, I think I had that thing where like I felt like I should only be friends with people who are like a little bit successful in up and all of that. Do you know what I mean? Which lots of people are like that, but I'm so glad that I snapped out of it because that would have been, because imagine I went on to be really, really successful. Would I have just been

like that forever? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because some people are like that. We know. Yes. Yes. I suppose. Yes. I suppose you're right. That doesn't, that's funny. That's not a subject that comes up a lot on the show, but I think I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so were you, was there element of you that is more in keeping with what we imagine to be like a kind of a typical comedian mindset, is there a kind of a conflict or was there a conflict within you at that time? Were you like, I'm this thing and I'm trying not to be this thing, I'm trying to be something else? Or is it that you're, I'm actually quite well balanced and I'm doing this because I enjoy it.

Yeah, it's a bit of a mix. I mean, it was weird for me because I was very lucky. Like, when I first started, so when I first started getting the reviews and stuff in that same Edinburgh, The way people talked about me, like you were saying, with this, like, he always laid back energy and rye and all of this stuff. But it wasn't anything I was doing on purpose. So I always thought I kind of speak wrong, if you know what I mean. You know, like I always feel like I'm in conversation and stuff. Like I used to feel it a lot more. Like I'm always, I always felt like I'm doing it wrong, basically.

In fact, it was, I think just before I did my first gig, I watched Simon Amstel's show, called Do Nothing, which I think is his first special that was available. And because he's so not slick in it, that gave me massive confidence. Because you were so used to only seeing guys with huge confidence on stage and smartly dressed and all of that. And then you kind of feel like, well, I'm not that, you know. So seeing him was a big thing. I don't know if I've answered your question, by the way.

I can kind of ramble a bit. No, that's fine. You know what? It's interesting that you would say that because you did. It's a perfectly good answer to the question. But one of the elements of the question is, I didn't have much confidence in myself. And then you've apologised at the end of your answer. But did I answer correctly?

That's kind of kind of sweet. Is that a thing that I tell you what? I will often feel that, but I won't say it because I'm trying to pretend to be confident. And maybe one of the differences between us is that you're comfortable saying that you don't think you're very confident. You don't feel like you have to pretend. Is that fair? I think so. it's definitely something I've got better at, but like, it's just way more, isn't it just

easier to be honest? Do you know what I mean? Maybe, maybe, but then, but it depends what's, it depends what the jeopardy is per individual, isn't it? Like, what's at stake, if you're honest? Like, you probably, you might think, oh, it's just easier to be honest. That might be how you kind of phrase it yourself, might be absolutely true. I might sometimes think, oh, it certainly would be easier to be honest, pretending to be on top of things is exhausting. But that doesn't make me think, so I'll be easier,

I'll just relax then, because the bag of anxieties and all the pressures to whatever, the eternal fault line. It's really, yeah. Because even as I say that, it's like,

would I have been way more successful now if I went into every meeting super confident and a little bit arrogant, which I haven't done? You know what I mean? So it's like actually, so,

yeah, so I don't know really. I do think there is a, there's a phenomenon in comedy which we will both have observed of people who kicked down doors, people whose energy is, where's my fucking special? Like, where's my show? Where's my BBC One primetime show? And I think those people do well, because that kind of confidence is exciting. I remember having, so recently I had Amy Annette on the show. I don't

if you know Amy. And she's a comic with experience of being on the other side of it. She's been a TV producer, still is a TV producer. And one of the things she was saying, I thought, was fascinating was that producers, when they're trying to make something, they're desperate for it to work, so they don't lose their jobs. So when comics come in and say, this is what we're doing, they go, oh, great, I haven't got to worry about this person. But most comics come in and go, what am I supposed to do? And they then think, I don't fucking know if I've got to convince you. I haven't got time to convince you as well as myself and everyone else. So it's a really, it's an interesting kind of phenomenon. I mean, I think that I think I've probably always had a sort of what will be, will be.

You know, what's for you, won't go by you, kind of thing. Which isn't really how show business works, is it? I think you need to, there are some people who would say, oh, if you've got to capitalize on that buzz, now, now, now you've got to do it, you've got to stress yourself, you've got to work, you've got to, you know, it's like Charlie Baker said to me years ago, the merry-go-round goes around and suddenly it's your time to get on. And if you miss it, you might have to wait a long time for it to come back around again. So do you, how do you feel back, kind of reflecting on that period? I do feel, yeah, so, so even like the 2016, time.

I was doing, so that was, it was so cool because I was getting all this attention and online and stuff, people were excited about me. And even like, I did some random, I did a gig for the, in like the BBC tent in Edinburgh that was on the red button that for some loads of people saw and it was really good. And I didn't have anything else to send those people over to. So I'd get all these tweets at the time saying, oh, I love that. I didn't have a podcast or anything. And it's like.

little asset that you could say join the mailing list and you get a thing. You don't have a thing. It's really important to have a thing, isn't it? Yeah, right. Yeah. But it all hit me so quickly all of this. And I didn't know I was going to suddenly be this sort of successful person like that. And I was, yeah, all of it.

It just like, it wasn't good for me like mentally. Okay. Yeah. It wasn't nice. Did it, was it not nice at the time? Did it feel good at the time or did it feel unsettling at the time? Is it like the unsettling, is the it wasn't good for me? Is that kind of like, to what extent is that kind of looking back and going, well, I can see now that it wasn't good for me? Or were you in it at the time going, I don't like this? A bit of a mix. Obviously, it's very, very exciting. So I didn't even know at the time that getting nominated was this huge deal. I thought you got to win it. So even when I didn't win it, I was gutted about it. I was like, I didn't win and I was really upset. And I didn't. And then I realized like a month later, I looked up. all the other nominees and they'd all been going way longer than I had.

Yeah. And I didn't realize what I'd achieved at the time. Yeah. I don't know. It's just, I had like, I think the independent wrote the, I can't remember what it was. There's some radio four show that was ending or it was changing its presenters. This is in 2016. So who knows.

And in the independent, they said that I would be a good person to replace someone who'd been on it for it. And I don't even know what it was. Right? So it was all this weird stuff suddenly happening and you're thinking, am I going to be really famous now? And also, I didn't even know at the time what I wanted to be at all. Like right now, I've got a much clearer image of like, I don't think I'd be very good on panel shows. It's not really the sort of thing I want to do. But back then, like, I got a read through for eight out of ten cats and it was awful. Because I had no, I had no idea it would be like everyone else had loads of stuff prepared.

One of the comedians put their leg behind their head at one point for no reason, right? They got it, by the way. They got to go on. But I was just there all, because I was still quite shy and timid at the time. And I didn't know about the whole thing of talking over people and basically bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the question and all of this. Sure. In order to wedge your gear in kind of thing. Yeah, I was just so out of my depth.

Did you have any management at the time? Was anyone looking after you? Yeah? Okay. Are you still with them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got signed by Avalon in, so I won the Natties, new act of the year thing. I won that in 2016 and then Avalon signed me and then I did Edinburgh with them and then got the new common nomination.

Okay. So it was also even that, I mean, just that year was ridiculous. Because, you know, when you're, because I was basically an open mica really who did an Edinburgh show. And you know how it is when you're new and it's like everyone's sort of showing off on Facebook to say like, oh, it's just been signed by Avalon. That's ridiculous to say. Sure. I must have made people so jealous. That's why I did it, you know. And did you, but that surprises me because I feel like they're, you know, they've got big machinery of like, we put you here and you do the thing. Did you not feel at the time that they were,

like, do you do you look back and think, would have been good if someone had told me this is a big deal or were they telling you this is a big deal and you didn't believe it or it didn't feel true? Probably a mix of stuff. I mean, just, because the thing is, my mind was blown that I was doing this. So I had a, I think, a 60-seater room. And even, I didn't expect to sell many tickets. At the start, I think the first show I might have sold eight and the next day 12. And then it was full every single day after that. And it's like, I'd never had a thing where I sold tickets before. So it was all just, it was like swept up in this thing where it's like you're kind of mad, right? It's like you've lost your mind a bit. So I think there was just so much stuff

going on and even like you're walking around Edinburgh and then someone who's a little bit famous says, oh, I heard of you and I like your shit. It's like all of these things were just crazy, you know. Yeah. So what, what, talk, talk me through the timeline. What happened then? You had the big buzz at the time in 20, that was 2018? It was a 2016. 16. 2016. And then what were the next kind of mood? You had a bit of a wobble feeling like what's going on. You did some tryouts for some shows, didn't really enjoy them.

Yeah, had loads of meetings. Oh, I did a tour. I did a tour after that, and that was good. Because the show was nominated and it had this buzz, that sold quite well. So that was great. And which show was that? Was that cakes? That was cakes, yeah.

So this is after the fringe. I did my first tour, yeah. But the thing is, when I went back the year after 2017, this is the thing. I did not have another show in me, right? I didn't. I mean, it was so, that was, that time of trying to preview was probably like my worst time in comedy, trying to, you know, because I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I didn't, I didn't even really know, like, ideas used to kind of come to me, you know, I didn't have any process of writing or really knowing what really strong punchlines were, I think. I, yeah, I was kind of all over the place.

It takes ages, doesn't it, to be good. It takes ages. And cakes, from what just to describe, from what I remember of it, and I had a quick look back because you since released it. Did you look? Was that, and I noticed on the, on the version I kind of scanned through it to remind myself, but I noticed you made reference to like an online following. And I thought, oh, is this like a kind of cakes redux where you've re-shot it for an online crowd? Well, I did it. So I shot it in 2020. Gotcha. Okay. Because I had a bit of mind. That's why. And I paid someone to film it for me because I never had a film special.

And I stuck it on YouTube for free. And I thought it was. And that was really cool because loads of the people that liked me from Twitch came. Yes. Oh, but what I was going to say is that in 2017, when I went back, I did not get a review all month, right? I, okay, I got unwell when I was in Edinburgh. I had a cough and it wasn't getting better. I went to the doctor actually and they were like oh you just got a cold the cough wasn't getting better when i got back to london and i got out of i got out at kingscross station i realized i couldn't really walk i was completely drained so i had to get a black cab all the way home because i didn't know what else to do then i went to the hospital i had pneumonia oh i had quite severe quite

this is 2017 this is 2017 yeah okay and when i was in a hospital bed i think that maybe like the day after the fringered or two days after the fringe has ended, I got a five-star review. Oh, that's nice then. Dyes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But the thing, the feeling of, the feeling of that wanting that buzz back and because you feel like you're important. And everyone's saying like, what really wound me up as well was that all of the reviews in 2016 were all like, can't wait to see what he does next. And then none of them came. Yeah. None of them came back. Because obviously everyone's looking for the new thing.

But I just took it so personal. You know what I mean? And the structure of the show, we should say for people that haven't seen the show and they can watch it on YouTube, but the structure of the show is you, you basically, it's like you did something funny online,

you pretended that you ran a Muslim bakery, and I can't remember the ends it out of it, but you basically people, it was on Twitter and it had gone viral on Twitter because it was basically a daft prank and then you kept playing into it. And it got out of hand, yeah, too many people believed it and I went with it.

Basically, just to tell people the thing was that It was a joke that my brother made on Twitter because my Twitter name, my handle is Zaffercakes. And he said, boycott Zaffer Cakes. It's a cake shop in Bristol. It refuses to serve non-Muslims, is what he said. And immediately people were so angry. And it just went on for like three weeks or something.

And that's basically what the show is. Yeah. And the show is you with a screen. Yes. Showing clips of like, was that in vogue at the time? Were you a kind of front runner of that kind of like, here's a screen and I'm doing reportage of an online? experience I've had.

No, I just... I feel like that's sort of a pretty established genre now, or was, you know. That's interesting. I was, I've always been a big fan of Adam Buxton, who used to do that stuff quite a lot. I'd seen him live as well in like 2015, I think. He used to do YouTube comments, didn't he? Yes. Where he'd go through.

And it was just a very effective way of telling these silly jokes. So it's basically that. Because when I did, when I did all the new act competitions that I started doing, well in. I would read the tweets out of a little notebook. Okay. And then obviously just adding the visual thing and you can do so much more. Yeah. So this is Belal. Rubicon is at this year's Edinburgh Fringed 8.30pm in the Jersey at the Underbelly Bristow Square. You can also listen to the Gotter Problem Mate podcast with Bilal and Dear Joey Page. I'm going on tour for the first time in a very long time with Canary. That's going to be at Cab Vol, Cabaret Voltaire, as the less cool kids say.

under the auspices of Monkey Barrel, so that's where you get your tickets, unless you go to Stuart Goldsmith.com to get your tickets, which you're very welcome to do. I'm going to be there from the 17th to the 30th of August. I've got four previews left. The show is in great shape. I've just got to get one joke about stranded assets to work, and then the whole thing will fall into place. I'm at Cambridge Junction on the 3rd of September on my national tour. That kicks it off.

Then Glasgow cannot wait to play the new stand venue in Glasgow on the 16th of September. If you know anyone in Glasgow, send them along, and I'm assuming you're coming yourself, whether or not you live in Glasgow. Just make the trip, make the pilgrimage, if you will. Then in September, I'm at the Oxford Old Fire Station. In October, I'm at Manchester, Cardiff and Maidenhead, and in November, Sheffield, Birmingham, Glee,

and then the biggest headline show of my career, which I think is sold about. What did my management say? It would no longer be embarrassing to film it. That's how well it's sold. I'm so excited. That's Bristol Old Vic on the 18th of November, Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy,

and you can sign up for the Comcom. list there. In the second half, we're going to discuss diving headfirst into football management through Twitch in lockdown on the advice of Limmy and building an audience through him as well. We're going to talk about the development of his new show, Rubicon, with Nick Helton, who is pushing him to play a more arrogant and less nice version of himself. And then we will talk about this wonderfully sweet thing in which Bilal finds unexpected happiness via an ancillary career. It's so lovely. Let's get back to Balazza Far. Let's pause then and do the Twitch stuff.

So my experience of that was I remember day one, day one of, it wasn't even lockdown, day one of like, whoa, gigs are getting cancelled. I remember using the Comcom pod Facebook group and just jumping in there and going, I'm going to try and do a gig on Zoom. Does anyone want to jump on Zoom and we'll see if we can break it? It was day one, because I had the mentality. I'm an absolute crisis preparedness guy and I'd heard that Spanish flu was four years long and so I decided to take actions commensurate

with the pandemic being four years long so I was like, let's go and the reason I mention it as well is I had a lot of energy for it because I was pretty sick of the road when my gigs got cancelled I had enough money saved that I didn't immediately panic I was a very lucky sort of position

and I had the podcast, it's making a bit of money but I felt relief because I was knackered. I'd been on just on the road for 15 years or more. So I was like, oh, great, I don't have to do this. And crucially, with my kind of hazard brain, I was like, a crisis, amazing. I knew something awful was going to happen. I've been preparing for this my whole life, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So talk to me about your vibe, because I know everyone brought themselves differently to that kind of thing, but you were quite an early adopter of the technology. Yeah, it was, excuse me, yeah. So it was basically, I remember lockdown happening and everyone, people doing like Instagram lives, comedians doing Instagram live. And I remember people doing Facebook live. And it was like, what's the point of that?

You know, it was all these things where it was, they just didn't. Even like the quality of an Instagram live is quite poor. Like, there can be a bit pixelated. Maybe it's better now. And Limmy, who I'm a big fan of and I am actually friends with somehow. He was already doing Twitch for like maybe a couple of years. He just decided that was what he was going to do. Oh, he was already doing it pre-pandemicity?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I don't think I ever realized that. I don't know, I love his stuff. I love his online sketches that I've seen. I think he's fantastic. But I didn't realize he was already doing Twitch. That's funny. Yeah, so what's mad is he used to, years ago,

he used to do live streams on YouTube, but also on a website called justin.tv, I think it's called. and that was, I believe this is right, that is what Twitch is now, basically. It's like set up by the same people. But yeah, anyway, I messaged him and I said, shall I give Twitch a go? And he said, yes, but make sure,

he said, don't dip your toe in. He said, make sure you go in head first. Okay, okay. Which is what I basically did. So I was very lucky. So I did a few streams of trying to get my head around how it works, because it is a bit complicated, isn't it? And I played some normal games.

And then I just had this idea where, because on Twitch, if people don't know, it's usually somebody is live streaming a video game and they are small in the corner of the screen, usually with a green screen, so they're a little cut out person at the bottom. And because I'm a big football fan, I've always played football games and stuff.

And whenever anyone plays a football game, they always imagine that they are the manager of the team. That's just what people do, right? And so I had the idea of playing a football game but I was going to be the manager character and so I'd wear a suit. Got it. Yeah.

And also I was just like quite lucky because I had a really crap PC at the time and I wanted to get like a new sort of FIFA game whatever but I couldn't. I could only get quite old games. So I got a game I used to like from 2005 called Pez Pro Evolution Soccer 5 for people that care. And it's one of those games which has a huge

you know, people absolutely love it for nostalgia. And it was quite a good game, you know. To interject, just as a non-football person, like I'm gradually picking up, like I've seen, like you sent me some clips, I've seen some other clips. It's such an alien world to me. I do play video games from time to time,

not on any regular basis anymore. I've got kids, but I've less than no interest in football. I've never played a football game for more than 10 seconds. But what I'm recognising is you say the kind of the retro aspect of it, I'm thinking, oh, this would be me, like me doing Command and Conquer Red Alert, dressed as a Russian general, like Tim Curry style. It would have that kind of vibe.

I've got it. I've got it. I've got it. Yeah, that's it basically. And so it was just all these things came together. And also, I was very lucky that Limmy was like retweeting it and stuff. I do need to say that. Like a big audience, a lot of the audience came from him.

I do have to like, you know. God, there were raids and stuff. I'm just remembering all this Twitch stuff I'd forgotten. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. you'd set so people that don't know you when you finish a stream you can send all your audience to someone else which was quite a nice thing i'm sure i did it to you a bunch of times um so yeah all those

things came together and i was starting to make a lot of money off it monthly and it was amazing i made a film do you know i made like a i made like a documentary an hour long sort of talking heads so i said send me some stuff and you sent me like three two minute clips look right the thing is i have done it i've been doing the pez stuff i've been doing this stuff for since 2020. Okay. So there's too much of it. There's genuinely, there's so much law now,

and there's so many things that I don't remember that the audience remembers about these specific characters. So basically, okay, so this was great. I did a thing as part of it where I'd have meetings in the club, which meant that I got Josie Long, for example, is the billionaire owner of the club. And I'd have a meeting with her. So it's literally a Zoom call,

but I've set the background up like I'm in a meeting room and she's on the screen and they were brilliant those things I had a but I had so many because it was lockdown I got so many amazing people like David Odochety is our chief

executive right he was absolutely amazing like the list of names is stupid you know so I did that and then I got a bunch of them to do like talking head style like a documentary about it was all about me dying

that's what the documentary was about and we screened it because it was part of a little festival that show and tell put on um we screened it at the rio cinema in which i think is in hackney so we had like a hundred people come and watch it's mad it's crazy isn't it it's crazy yeah sorry it's with this stuff it's like there really is too much yes you know what i mean it it that is yeah like i said i could go on about tips on the law so i can't so much i can't yeah like like Yeah, I genuinely can't remember a lot of it.

I tried to give you some of the sort of standout clips that sort of show what it is. So the character, the manager is called Hot Pepsi. No, no. The manager's just got my name. The name of the, yeah, yeah, yeah. The name of the whole thing is Hot Pepsi. And that is based on when I first started doing it, I'd have a, I actually had coffee. It was quite late in the evening, but it was lockdown.

I had a mug of coffee and I sipped it and said, that's a mug of hot. Pepsi and people it was just one of those things that just stuck and then I'd start going on and on about how to like slow cook the hot Pepsi or to get it right and all of this and the sponsor of the shirt is Pepsi but spelt wrong it's just a very stupid in joke you know I think I think with a lot of that stuff having watched some of those clips earlier this week there is something it's funny you mention kind of brass eye in the day to day because the combination of that sort of loopy sense of humor and your very easygoing personality. I wondered the extent to which streaming is a really natural fit for you, because you can talk gently in a relaxed way. Everyone feels welcome. Like,

it killed me doing the Twitch shows, doing the Infinite Sofa. It was like this big important thing. I had to be like, I'm a people pleaser and I had to dial that up to 11 and not forget anyone's name. And suddenly it was doing this collaborative game show. I suddenly, everything's so important. and I'm like, constantly, it's like I'm hosting a party and it's driving me insane. And I couldn't cope and I stopped. I'm only realizing now all of that, that was party. It was like I was hosting a party and it was driving me insane. Whereas your thing was much more gentle and easygoing,

and you've got this dark sense of humour and looking at those clips, that one where you're talking about, oh, I've heard from one of the players and he's in the war in his home country. And he says it's quite good, but there's a lot of bombs. It's just such a silly, like I was really laughing in a way that I kind of, went, oh, this is an element of Twitch and streaming that I never contacted. I never got that kind of easygoing, gentle silliness that's like a lovely warm, it's like a magnetic experience. Because it's not just, a lot of streamers I have seen and I haven't, I don't have relationships.

I don't have parasycial relationships with any streamers. So maybe loads of people do this or the successful ones do this. But I felt watching you like, oh, I kind of get why this works in a way that I wouldn't really have understood as an old man that doesn't really get the value of watching. That's interesting. Yeah. And one of the great things about it was that a lot of people that are into it are not football fans.

They're just there because it's this stupid, surreal thing. Because the absurdity, it's like football, you don't need to be a football fan to enjoy the madness of the sitcom. Yeah, exactly. Got it. Yeah. Got it. But there are a lot of people that are very invested in the,

in the results of the games. You know, that's just how it is, right? They're playing it like Mornington Crescent. Yeah. Do you know that game? Do you know Mornington Crescent? I've heard of it. It's a game, it's a made-up game whereby the joke is that the, not to give away a 50-year

running joke here. The joke is there's no rules and they're just saying the joke is you pretend you know the rules and you make up. Always diagonal moves are allowed in this one and you just name loads of things. So it's sort of like that in that people can enjoy it. whether or not they like football, they can kind of invest in the law. Because the other thing about Twitch, of course, you and I know, but people who won't have looked at it ever,

there's a chat stream, which is visible. So everyone is constantly collaborating and throwing in their jokes and then they contribute their jokes, and you can pick them out and turn them into a thing. Oh, in my chat, they're all in character the whole time. They're assistant managers, so they're in character. Yeah, it's mad. So if anyone, occasionally you'll get someone,

saying like, oh, what system are you playing on? And I just ignore it, you know. Yes, okay. Wouldn't make sense. Okay, because you're keeping the ball in the air. It's like a giant improv game. It's like a big character thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Wonderful. That's giving me a whole new perspective on what the thing is. Do other people on Twitch use it in that way? Because most of the Twitch streams that I think I've seen, I guess, even Limmy's stuff, you sort of go, he's doing something funny. He's like he's playing a game.

game, I think the most recent thing I saw years ago, he was playing a game where he's driving a truck. And he's not in character. He's being Limmy driving a truck, but he's not overdoing it because he's doing it for hours and he's got the rhythm right and sort of knows what he's doing. But the audience there aren't pretending anything other than this is Limmy driving a truck in a funny way. No, it's quite a rare thing, I think. I've definitely seen other people do similar stuff, but definitely when I was doing it, it didn't feel like anyone else was doing that. it was really cool and I do you know what

my sort of dream is I would love to do it forever the football thing in particular and just Twitch is quite nice but I would love to get a little bit famous and then bring loads of people in you know what I mean yes

that would be amazing because if you're already the bloke from the in between us then your online chat show is going to have a you're going to have loads of momentum behind it because people are there to see you as a famous guy

yeah but just being character as well and being stupid would be brilliant yeah yes that would be good wouldn't it that would be nice because the so what how does it work in terms of growth are you like actively trying to grow i mean you you're still twitch streaming and you're still doing hot pepsi yeah yeah not as regular as i used to but i try to do it once a week but does that drop off does that mean that the algorithm slams you because you're not doing it enough to please the algorithm or are you retaining the fans but not growing? Is it like, where are you with it? Yeah, probably not, probably not growing massively. There is also, I mean, there's the element of people aren't as free as they were in lockdown,

you know, and people have families and all sorts of things going on. So not everyone can watch live. I do always stick the full video, the full vods on YouTube, so people catch up with them. But yeah, it's just up and down a bit. I think if I really, if I announce that I'm doing it like a bit in advance and I tell people like it's going to be so I do like a fake like press release

and stuff and say like it's going to be a really important and I will have more people turn up for that but it's not you know it's nowhere near the level

it was in lockdown I mean that was just stupid yeah and you were making money from it you were like making serious money from Twitch that's great yeah it was

it was really cool well I remember let's just return to this conversation where you were saying this is it fuck the circuit I'm doing this now

tell me about the evolution of that feeling so i think i was probably just a bit unhappy at the time with comedy i think i was actually yeah i was i forgot about this but there was um just before lockdown or maybe just like yeah just before then there was a bunch of stuff i'd agreed to do that i didn't like because i was getting a bit desperate like like like I did like a I made a taster tape with a guy who

because basically the second Edinburgh show I did which became the Radio 4 thing it was about online like the online Muslim dating world that was kind of what it was mainly about and he wanted to do a thing with me where it was me going on dates and stuff like that which I don't want to do you know I'm not I'm not interested in that doesn't really seem like

your bag man no no anything reality TV to I mean you know I like being silly and, you know, yeah. But I did, like, I was, that was something, I actually made the Taster Tate for that. And there was a few other things. So I think I was just a bit disillusioned with it,

and I was just feeling a bit like, I'm never going to get to do what I want to do in comedy. And also kept feeling like I was getting pigeonholed with all these annoying, you know, all these ideas, which just sounded stupid. So I think it was that. And then suddenly being this football manager character was like completely my own thing.

and, you know, it's so stupid. Some of it is like, it's so ridiculous. And it's the sort of stuff you could never do. I mean, I would never play a football manager on a TV show, would I? It wouldn't make any sense, right? But in this, you know. Yes, there is a, it's kind of empire building, isn't it? That is one of the things I loved about the Infinite Sofa was being able to go,

I'm going to do this now, this is how it works. And there's zero levels of management. You haven't got to convince anyone. You just do a thing and it sort of exists on your whim. you've made your own TV show. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's a good feeling.

Producer Callum, who produces Comcom with me now, he'll be listening to this laughing because I'm like, hey, you can just do it all yourself. He did almost all of it. I think I did a lot of the creative decisions. But it would all have been completely impossible without him, and David Hor at the time. And the collaborative cast of the Sofam.

The Sofam, I haven't said that word out loud, for a long time. There's a lot of stuff. up. There's a lot of like, um, there's a lot of very positive memories from it as well. And the freedom was very exciting. So do you now, you're going back to Edinburgh, you've done your storytelling shows. They kind of, they were after you started to feel. Do you think there was a relationship between you feeling more confident doing hot Pepsi and going, I can be silly and it attracts a crowd, there's a market for it? Do you think that was part of the decision to put down the projector and go, I'm going to do a storytelling show? I can do what I want. Did you feel kind of empowered by that?

Yeah, probably that a little bit. And I think I just wanted to prove to myself really that, yeah, I quite like good storytelling stand-up shows as well. And I just thought I need to do that and forget all the screen stuff and trying to force jokes in whatever, because that's how it felt like it was going. I think Twitch definitely helped, yeah. Just, it just gives you, it's this new kind of confidence.

I think something amazing about Twitch as well is that you've kind of got a direct relationship with your audience, right? a dialogue with your audience which you don't have that usually apart from something. Normally the most you get doing stand-up is people come up to you afterwards and go, hey, I really liked it. It's not necessarily a very satisfying encounter for either of you because you don't get into what they like about it. Whereas with Twitch and particularly, you know, there's online comments and fan mail, emails and stuff like that, but with Twitch, the chat stream are right there

supporting you and kind of pleased that you're there and you're there sort of excited that you're there. So that must be right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So let's talk about this Edinburgh and let's talk about where you are now at the end of this sort of 10 year journey of this sort of explosive thing and then all the kind of the roller coaster after that. What's what's with your Edinburgh show? Rubicon. What's it about?

Is there a screen in it? What are we doing? So this is actually quite a cool time to talk to you about this actually because of everything we've talked about. I did. So I did a, okay. So in terms of what's happening in my life. is that I was struggling to make enough money from comedy. And my wife has endometriosis, which is people can Google it if they don't know.

Very common. So she had to quit her job and it's been quite difficult. So I got a job as a teaching assistant for a year two class, so six to seven year olds. And what's been weird about it is that initially I was really embarrassed. I didn't want anyone to know I was doing it because I felt like I'd failed, you know. but now but actually I love this job and I'm really good at it so it's completely changed my perspective on

like I don't care who knows now and I'm still obviously yeah thanks yeah so like I still want to do comedy forever and stuff but it's just weird it's like sorted me out it's given me a routine which I didn't have before I was all over the place you know how it can be right

getting up really late I mean you've got kids so you I guess it's all right with but yeah if If you don't have a family basically and you just do comedy, you can really go off the rails in terms of, you know. Yeah, just eating badly, just so many things, just living unhealthily, you know. So it's sorted all of that out. I've got this sense of responsibility at the school. The kids really like me. I'm just, I'm very good at it.

Like it's just, you won't. As soon as I heard you had a teaching assistant job, it makes so much sense with your personality, your gentleness and all the rest of it. I can absolutely imagine that working. Yeah, yeah, so it's just worked out nicely. So basically, I did the Leicester Comedy Festival in February, and I was doing this show about, it was all going to be about teaching and stuff. That was the show.

I did this preview, and it was fine, and then afterwards I was miserable because I was so bored. I just thought, this is so boring. And I thought anyone can do this show. And do you know what I mean? And I had this, well, actually, Nick Helm, he's one of our best friends he's been helping me

with my new show massively and basically what so I've done a load of online videos as well as the Twitch stuff where I'm interviewing people and all of this basically online when I'm a character I'm always someone who is kind of horrible

usually and a bit of an idiot and out of their depth and now the idea is that that is the character I want to be in this Edinburgh that's the plan. Okay. So it's kind of merging my Twitch stuff a little bit with my stand-up, which I've never done.

Because I've been so scared of doing anything that isn't just stand-up, because I'm so comfortable in stand-up. I hadn't even thought to ask about that, who you are in Hot Pepsi, and the football manager character and that you've built. I mean, you must have spent more hours being that version of you than your stand-up's self. You must have. You must have spent 10 times as many, right?

There's a limited number of... I mean, you've done to spend a lot of time being a comic, but the actual stage time when you add it together, surely in a year's worth of twitching you overcome... You'll beat that amount of time. Did you hear that? Yeah, there's a cat. That was such a long meow.

Sorry. So this show Rubicon is a synthesis of the two things. It's you doing that type of persona. Great. I'm so scared. So, yeah, it's called Rubicon based on... The title is... It's based on the drink Rubicon, because I have some stuff about that, right?

It was me thinking it's a big, obviously the other meaning of Rubicon. Yeah, okay, fine. There's going to be, part of it is going to be a game show called Crossing the Rubicon, right? Yep. I mean, Nick is really, Nick Helm is really pushing me to do stuff that, he wants me to do a thing where I sing in the show, right, even though I can't sing at all. And I do think it would be really funny, but I don't think I can do it. Yes, okay.

what I mean. I know exactly what you mean. I had a conversation with Deck Monroe, who's directing Canary, my Edinburgh friend show at the moment, and we had a really funny idea for some prop stuff. I recently spoke to Kristen Sharle on the podcast. That episode would be coming out soon. Brilliant conversation. She is M's commitment. Her whole thing is have a mad idea and just commit to it harder than anyone can imagine that you're committing to it. And I've got a very similar conversation with Deck about we had a funny idea for a running prop joke. And I could feel. feel myself going, I just, I'm not a prop guy. I don't want it. I don't. It's not me. I don't like it. So absolutely, I get that it's a smart idea. I get that it would push me out of my comfort zone.

It would add a whole other thing that I don't know if I want to do it. And it sounds like something similar to you singing. Yeah, it's, I mean, the game show bit I've been doing has been amazing in previews. And it, I was so scared because I've not done anything. I've never got anyone out of the audience. I get them up and I do some small talk and then there's some stupid stuff that happens. But every time has been great. And so the last time I did a preview, basically, that Nick, who's helping me, came to see, there were bits in the show. Basically, everything went wrong a little bit in the venue. I won't say the venue. The offstage mic wasn't working. And then when I came out onto the stage, finally, all of the house lights were up for some reason.

So there were all these things that wound me up. I mean, I'm quite good at, I can get away with a lot, I guess, because of my persona. So I started to be, started being mean to the audience a bit and telling them how I disgusted I was at seeing their faces because the lights are, do you know what I mean? Stuff like that. Yeah. And I was doing that sort of in and out of the show

and then trying to do bits of material. And then Nick told me after he was like, no, that's who you have to be the whole time. And also, because I was apologising, I was like, look, I said, I didn't mean. And he was like, no, don't apologize. No. Right? Because also, I don't have to, because people were laughing.

You know, they know it's a joke, right? I'm just so not used to that. That sounds like a really. fun direction to let specifically Nick Helm push you in. Do you mean? Like not just any director going, hey, it was funny when you did that thing you're trying to resist doing, but specifically Nick Helm, who, uh, his whole thing I remember is just like, I've always got to be the biggest cunt in the room.

Yeah. That's like specifically Nick's angle. So, okay, well, that sounds exciting. So here we are. It's the 15th of July when we're recording this. You've got two weeks left, now, three weeks left. I know. I know.

It's mad. Are you going to do this thing that Nick's pushing you towards of going, let's do this? Sounds great to me. I'll think about that, but I still have loads of work to do. So basically, I can tell you, like, the basic idea of what the show is now is that I'm going to talk about how talented I am

and all the stuff I've done and all the stuff I should be doing, basically. And then at the end, I reveal that, like, well, sort of. I mean, it's not necessarily the ending, but basically I reveal that, and this is true, like I was basically looking for happiness in the wrong places because I genuinely, for about, God, I don't know how long,

for about at least two years, my mind was just like, I have to get on a TV thing and then I'll be happy. That honest, that is literally, which sounds mad, but that is how I was thinking. I did not think I could work in a primary school and just be really happy. I was anxious all the time,

because I was like nervous about paying bills and stuff and I would wake up with this anxiety in my chest that I got used to. And then when I started working at the school, it had gone and I'd wake up and the feeling wasn't there, right? So I guess the show, I'll talk about that towards the end and some stuff about the school. So that's basically what it is, but my God, I've got, I'm really,

I've never had it where, so I've done five shows in Edinburgh, I've never been this late on with, having so little, if you know what I mean? I've got loads. I do it's not, I sometimes feel like I've got nothing. I've got loads of stuff, but it's about reworking. So even Nick was talking to me about like, because all of my stories are kind of, I guess they're all kind of nice, even though they're funny. Like, I guess I come across kind of nice. And he was telling me about how to rework the material to come across arrogant instead, which is really interesting, which I've not, I've not done that before. Give me an example. This sounds great. But before you give me a job,

if you're able, I love everything about this, Bilau. I'm so pleased for you. I'm so this is like, oh my God, you've properly like the kind of, I think of it like an enormous kind of metal cog just like shifting forward. Click. Great. You've like you've evolved into a different thing and you're happy. I'm so thrilled to hear this and I'm loving the idea that other comics will hear this and it will help them because we're so many of us are anxious and so many of us feel like this i've got to fill the whole is it tv will tv will an award will a nomination will that fill the whole maybe what will fill the whole is a teaching assistant job that makes you happy stops you being stressed and allows you to thrive and be your most creative self because

you're not chasing this mad dream that to be honest a lot of people and i've spoken in this podcast in depth to a lot of people who've done this like, I finally achieved the thing I'd been wanting so desperately and giving up everything to achieve. And did it make me happy? No. What made me happy was this other thing. But the problem is, and this won't be a new idea for anyone, I'm sure.

But the problem is you can't, you feel like if you haven't got the thing that you're desperately chasing, if you haven't yet achieved it, you haven't yet earned the right to turn your back on it and go, oh, that wouldn't mean a thing. because you feel like, well, if I didn't achieve it, then how can I, you know, maybe I'll just be, maybe I'm just someone who doesn't know because I'm an also ran because I couldn't get the thing. So I can't, it's only when you can achieve the thing that you can then say to yourself, oh, this isn't what it's, this isn't all it's cracked up to be. The courage to go, nope, I haven't got it yet, but I suspect it's not all that it's cracked up to be is enormous.

What a way to unlock happiness. That's brilliant. But I just, but, you know, it was by accident, right? Because if you told me a couple of years ago, oh, if you got a teaching assistant job, I'd say no. Yeah. That would mean failure. If you said that to me,

I would tell other comedians you said that. Do you know what I mean? I mean, like, you know, because it sounds so mad. And it's like, I've only just realized, I was like brainwashed, basically, right? Who brainwashed you?

Did you brainwash yourself? Or did you let yourself be brainwashed? brainwashed by management or industry or the kind of the fairy tale of comedy? What is it? Where did the brainwash happen? That's really interesting. It's hard to say. I'm not asking you to throw your management under the bus. Oh, no, no, no.

Like, no, but it is, but I don't mind saying it's a lot of pressure when you're with one of the biggest agents, right? and then when you're suddenly you feel like because the thing is with agents like it's not and this isn't slagging them off at all but you don't stop working hard when you get signed by an agent you've still got to create loads of work yourself you know you're not handed things I think that's what everyone assumes it is and maybe for some people a little bit of that happens but it's it's not the case for 99% of people is it

you still got to be out there doing your own thing um I guess I mean it's a mix of like um you know having some of something on my closest friends going on Taskmaster and stuff and becoming huge comedians who I'm very happy for them but you can't you'll always have that feeling of why can't I get that there's definitely that there's getting older there's you know like um going being at my in-laws and they're watching like would I lie to you and it's like you know they they know what I do and they're they're all thinking when is he gonna you know there's like there's all of that pressure of even my family of like

yeah when am I going to do some stuff that they can be really proud of I mean even like I even had something I got a chance I got very close to getting a writing job on quite a popular cartoon right and then I didn't get it and I've got a little nephew and niece

and they would have loved it if I got it and I was gutted that I didn't get it because of that because kids they don't know they don't know what live at the Apollo is or anything like that. Literally, whenever my nephew sees me, he asks me how many YouTube subscribers I've got and whatever. You know what I mean? They're all upset.

It's like, if you can get into what they like, that would be so good. But yeah, I guess there's just. And just to pick you up on, or not to pick you up at all, but just to focus on something. You said the expectation from my family, like when are you going to do something that makes us proud. Is that something a family member has explicitly said to you? Or is that words that you're putting in their mouth because they're in your head?

I'm definitely putting it in their mouth, I think. Yeah, I don't think, I don't think it's even fair to say that. You know what I mean? I think it's just, I don't know, my mum is someone who, oh, it's really embarrassing, man. I was with her in A&E a little while ago. She's fine, but I was just with her for something. She tells everybody I'm a comedian.

It is so embarrassing. She does it whenever we're anywhere. No, but it's because you get that thing where there's a nurse looking at you, like, oh, do I recognize him from something? Do you know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean What I say to people is I'm a comedian They go oh sorry should I have heard of you

And you go God no There's like 50 of us that are mega famous That do all the jobs And then there's another 700 of us You've never heard of Yeah yeah You can own that You can own that

You don't need to be embarrassed By the fact you're not a Yeah You're right It doesn't make any sense really It's just I just I guess I just think If I could do something If I was on something

That my parents would think is really respectable. They would tell all their friends. And it's just that. I think I just want them to be really proud. And I think, because they've all, you know,

like parents, like good parents are. When I started doing common, I was like, I want to do this. They're always a bit like, oh, okay,

but are you sure? Like, you know, like they should ask those questions. And even now the fact that I've had to get a day job, I still think I feel a bit, I do feel a bit embarrassed sometimes about that.

Even though I'm mostly okay with it, but I can't fully. escape that, you know. But you're right. I appreciate you saying that because it's like, I love you've got a day job and I love that you're talking about it on this podcast and going, this is great, it's made me really happy. And I further love your candor in saying, I still feel a bit funny about it. You know, do I mean? Like, that's totally understandable. For a long time when both of us were variously kind of coming up in comedy, the whole goal was, are you full time? I've got to be careful not to ask people, are you full time? I try and ask people

How's comedy treating you? Because you don't want there to be this implicit. Are you real? Are you real? Shall I be nice to you? Shall I consider you a three-dimensional human being? Because you're good enough at comedy for me. I hate all of that.

But you can do it subconsciously or unconsciously. So, you know, and it's just not the world anymore. It's not the world. Why would, you know, being full-time isn't a badge of anything. No, because it could mean going around doing loads and loads of gigs and not doing that well, you know? Yeah. Oh, 100%.

100%. You know, it could be, you've found a niche that you're exploiting. And, you know, so that counts for a thing. Or it could be, you know, we all, surely if the internet and the rise of comedy online and Instagram and YouTube and everything, if it's taught us anything, surely it's taught us that popular is not the same as good. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, they both said from their positions of relative non-fame. Yeah.

So, well, listen, I'm thrilled for you, and I'm really excited to hear that where you're at with Rubicon at the moment is you're three weeks out and you're not panicking, right? You're like, how are you feeling? Are you feeling like there's an interesting kind of creative bridge to be crossed? There's a creative decision to be made, but you've got loads of gear and it sort of feels like this could all fall into place, right? I'm very excited.

I am, obviously I'm a bit nervous. nervous and stuff. Also, I'm on at 8.30 and I'm never on that late. And that was part of the reason as well. I thought, I don't want to risk doing a nice storytelling show if I'm going to get some drunk people in on a Friday night or whatever. Do you know what I mean? I thought if I make it fun and stupid and loud. Sorry, what was your, what was your question? I was asking about how you're feeling about going into it. And also how you, A, what your expectations are about whether you are going to go for this thing that Nick's nudging you towards. And B, whether you feel like going up to Edinburgh, you'll be able to retain the happiness

of currently being a man with a job you love that gives you a routine. Is that vulnerable? Are you going to need to protect yourself at Edinburgh so you don't slip back? We all know what Edinburgh is like. I these days have some fairly robust mental health regarding comedy. I still have to remind myself when I get up to Edinburgh, oh, fucking hell, you're in the hurricane of Suddenborough. everything's meaningful and everyone's achievements are emblazoned everywhere and it's like this is an

absolute three-dimensional mind field yeah yeah that's the worst getting the when people have five stars and it's the first day and there's like the times five yeah um i am i feel much i think it's because of this job i'm doing i think but i feel like a lot less pressure i do still no like i i do care about reviews, I do still want good reviews that I can show off about. And I will think about the best show nomination. I'm not going to lie and pretend, right? That will always be there a little bit. But I don't have that same feeling I used to have of this has to go well because I need to get on whatever the big thing is. And this will help me get there. I don't have that feeling. I'm feeling much more like make a really fun show, hopefully get a load of

buzz and then be able to tour, you know, do like 100-seaters. That's what I mean when I say tour anyway. Nothing bigger than that, really. That's how I feel right now. But yeah, I am terrified sometimes. Do you know what I mean? I have those moments of like, no, you know what it is? I feel terrible and then literally the, I think it was last weekend.

I was just feeling bad about my show. And Nick, who came to that preview I mentioned, he'd written loads of notes for me. And we were on the phone for two and a half hours. I know. How nice I'm not even paying him. And he gave me just so much good advice that just helped settle my nerves.

And he just breaks it down. So he was like, because usually I, the way, you know, the way you visualize things is different to other people. And he was like, oh, you just need like five, ten minute chunks. that's all it is. And he said, and you've already got one here and here. And it was just that massively helped.

And usually when I have a preview, I feel better after the preview, even though they're not perfect, but I feel like, okay, I can figure out where I'm going. But I don't have an ending yet. And there's loads of stuff I haven't. Yeah.

I want to do loads of, I want to have loads of stupid stuff throughout and fill it with like really dumb callbacks and stuff, which I haven't quite got there yet. So I've got lots of, loads of work to do, but I break up from school next week on Tuesday, and the plan is just go mad and just focus on that. And hopefully I'll pick up a few more previews as well. But yeah, right now I do, overall, I felt, I felt excited and yeah, and good about it. Like, I don't, yeah,

but there were times where I was like, this is going to destroy my whole reputation. Do you know what I mean? Sure, sure. Okay. Yeah. And you're laughing. now because that doesn't matter anymore. No. No, but it won't. It will be fine. You know what I mean? Like, it will be fine. I don't, I don't think I'm going to get a two-star review. I could, but I'll probably get other quite good reviews if I'm being honest. How will you cope? How do you anticipate coping if you get a two-star? Like, do you, would you read them? You know what's funny? I was actually meant to say this to you. I'm pretty sure it's because of you and this podcast years ago. I'm sure you used to say you're not

supposed to read reviews. Yes. Yeah. But I believe, I took that on board and I don't read them. Great. But no one else does that. Everyone else reads every word. I'm trying to project positive mental health. I don't read the reviews and funnily enough, I regard it like it's almost like I'm at level two where I don't read the reviews. Previously, I read the reviews felt bad. Maybe level two is, read the reviews, try not to care. Maybe I'm at level three.

I don't read the reviews, but I make a big fuss about how I don't read the reviews. Level four is reviews don't exist. And I'm not there yet. I'm busy at level three going, oh, I don't read them. I don't read them. Did you hear?

I don't read them. I don't care about them so much. I keep mentioning how much I don't care about them. But I did. I had a chortle review of spoilers, my climate, my first climate comedy show in 2023, and I had resolutely not read it, and I felt great about not having read it,

because they aren't at me, and I think one of the downsides, not levelling this at Steve Bennett or anyone in particular at all, but one of the downsides of the existence, of the fact of reviews, is that it's very easy to feel, like if I was writing one,

I'd be thinking, will the act read this? This is a public review, and it's also me sending a message to the act, and I feel that that is completely unfair. So I don't read them because it's not up to, If they've got something to say to me, they can email me. You know, the review isn't them sending me a message, and it's easy to imagine it is, even if it isn't, and there's a whole kind of weird parisocial thing about that.

I think I think I've just put my finger on that for the first time in my life. I don't want to feel like that that is what I think. I don't want them to feel like they get to talk to me. They can talk to me. I don't mind, but they don't get to talk to me through the review. They're not my director, and their feedback is not aimed at me, and I've not asked for it. I'm happy to be reviewed. I have asked for it to be reviewed

on the basis that maybe that will help other people to come and see it. But it is not aimed at me and I'm not... Like, I would love, I used to love in the days when I was on Twitter of people, there was that first big year or two of reviewers atting you in their review. So you'd see it. And I used to love...

I hit upon this myself and would proudly tell everyone to do it. It's so great to go, thanks so much. I don't read... Reply to them. Thanks so much. I don't read the reviews.

But I hope you enjoy it. the show because I feel that really nips in the bud, the otherwise kind of implicit, this is a message to you aspect of the reviews. So anyway, my point is, I had successfully not read the one from 2023 and then I was looking for a pull quote for a thing. No, I wasn't even looking for a quote. I was looking for, did I say that in that show? And I was trying to find a useful reference to it to remind myself or something, saw it, read it and was like, for God's sake, I wish I hadn't done that. I was so pleased that I'd managed to hold out. And it had been no effort. But do you check the stars? Yes, I, I don't read them. It's useful to know what the

stars are. Yeah, I do that. I check the stars. Yes, because you have to, because that's part of your business. You have to be able to chase up your producer and go, hey, there's a four out. That's got being clipped up and splashed on all the flyers tomorrow. Why hasn't it been done? That kind of stuff, or I'm sure it does get done. But I'm too hands on to do that. I know lots of people just eject from that process and go, I'm paying you to produce it. You do all the stuff. I'm too hands-on. I've been to the fringe too many times. It's been three decades. You're I mean? I'm like, I can't let go of it. I'm two hands-on. But I think that you can look at the stars and go, oh, that's interesting. Three or the three and a half. That's worse than a three. How's a three worse when it's

three and a half? You know, you can look at that and go, that's interesting. But my, my relationship is with my audience. So if it's useful to get them in great, if it isn't, doesn't matter. And these days in particular. When I'm researching people for the podcast, I'll look on comedy.com.com at UK, plus the name of the person, and I'll go, right, which year, which shows did I see? Oh, I missed that one. Let's look at some of the reviews. Very few of those reviews exist anymore. Are accessible anymore? It's a nonsense that should come crashing down any day now. You can literally just say, I mean, you know, pick a thing that went bust and just go, oh yeah, I got five stars from bloody blah comedy that is completely impossible to prove five years ago.

I'm not suggesting anyone do this, but it pleasingly to me, it undermines the infrastructure of the meaning anything. Exactly, yeah. But I think because you said that on your podcast, God knows when I heard that. And I just took that on board. And I didn't. I've read like one or two good ones. And it hasn't all been wasted time. No.

I've read a couple of good ones when I needed a bit of a boost. Yes. You know. But generally I don't. I don't read every word and I don't, yeah. Yeah, sorry, I went on a bit of a rant there, but I think I was quite pleased about my revelation that, oh, that is the problem.

I've never articulated that. It's the idea of being sent a message. Blach, got better. Yeah, that's so interesting. For me, it was like, I don't want to be given advice from a reviewer of what could have been better. Yeah. Yeah.

No, we don't need that. We don't need that. Before we wrap up. Yes. Is there anything else? Any other pertinent things we haven't covered? I mean these are the main things Right

These are the most important main things right now I think we've covered all of those I think But yeah Nick basically has been I've never so I've had people direct stuff before a little bit As in like just give me notes and stuff Who've done a really good job

But Nick has been amazing Because he's just so It's just been such an interesting perspective Especially from someone who you know has done it He's done incredible Edinburgh shows. Yes. And he's just taught, like, even like, he said to me, like, you should be, he said, you should be arrogant.

And he said to me, he said, you're really cool. You said, you're really cool. And you should be really cool on stage. And I've never thought of myself that way. Do you know what I mean? I always thought I'm a bit lame. And he even said to me, he said, like, oh, because you're really cool. And he said, and you're good looking.

And I don't think of myself. I mean, this, that's very deep. but I've never thought of myself as like good looking like but then him saying that I was like oh that maybe I am if I'm seen like that on stage do you know what I mean I don't know it kind of changed my sort of perspective yeah totally yeah totally so useful to have a perspective from someone else

and be able to kind of cut through especially if you're someone I mean maybe this is a different conversation if you're one of those acts who has just gets you know five five stars every show you know what I mean like big specials, Netflix special, all the rest of it, maybe no one needs to say to those people, you're cool and good looking, do you mean? But maybe people who are not in that privileged position, it's nice to be reminded. Something Dex says to me a lot is that you're the magic person. I don't know if this is a deck thing or if I've gleaned it from somewhere else. Let's attribute it

to Deck because he's excellent. But I feel like, I think what he says to me is, don't do a joke about, you know, like I've got, I'm a terrible one for being too self-deprecating. I've done it on this podcast for 14 years. I always go, well, you know, because I want to, in some aspect of my personality, I feel like if I say, hey, I'm good, then I'm vulnerable to attack. So we'll always go, and useful when you're interviewing people to say, look, I worry about this, do you? But on stage, I've got, like, I've got some really good jokes that are kind of kicking myself about my career, not having exploded in the way it might have. And he's like, don't do that. You're the magic man. You're only telling them, do you mean? Like, they know, they know as much about you as you tell them,

And if you go, well, guys, as you know, it hasn't really worked out, even if there's a really good punchline in the end. It's like, well, what's the point of that message? Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? Yeah. So what's the dream gig? This goes really well. You win the nomination. You win the best show award.

You get all these meetings. And this time, what's different? Is anything different if that, like, the best thing happens? Or, like, what is the metric? What's the thing that will make you most happy to reflect? on in October this year when you think a fucking nail bat fringe what is it that happened that made that made it work

wait are you asking wait I don't understand because I feel like they were too separate there were separate questions I fudge them all together like I'm okay okay in terms of what I think would make this a good show

would make this successful I think it's just my sheer like excitement for it and the sort of forcing myself to do something different and being as funny as I can be, which is something I feel like I don't always do in stand-up. It's weird. It's hard to, it's a weird thing to say because I do, like, for the last sort of two, two, three years or whatever,

I feel like all my gigs have been really good. Like, maybe there's a, you know, there's a few that are difficult, whatever. But I'm very comfortable on stage and I can improvise a bit and it's just, I've worked hard on refining material. and I can do different types of gigs and stuff and generally do great. Like, I'm very comfortable and that's all good. But I feel like I can still be funnier

than that, which is a weird thing. Yeah, it's a strange thing to say because it sounds kind of arrogant in a way, but it's like, I don't know, you can just, yeah, I get if that kind of makes sense. Growth, growth. You can be better. You can be better. You can be, you're a funny comedian, you can be an even funnier comedian. That's very, that's an attractive thing to shoot for. Yeah, but it's not just about being,

it's not like better punchlines. It's like being sillier on stage is what I mean, I think. Yes. Not necessarily full on clowning, but being like a different persona, which, which is stuff I do online, which I'm just quite scared of doing on stage. It's, you've got to, man, you've got to get over that fear. I can just hear and see this work. He's absolutely right. This is what you have to do. You have to get the kind of the nonchalance and the sort of silliness and the kind of sarkiness and what have you know, the slight badness, the arrogance of the hot Pepsi character, of the streaming character, and put it on stage because you know it backwards and you just have to get over. You need a couple of, you need to do it a few times and have a couple of bangers and go,

oh, hang on a minute. That's my, that's what my instinct would say. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah. It's just, yeah, yeah. It's all just a bit. Yeah, no, I'm excited. That's the main thing. Yeah. But you also ask what I would do differently in terms of like everything around it that I would do, I guess. I think you asked. Yeah, that's, that is a part of my vague rambling question. Yeah. Is, yeah, what would be, if it goes off and if it goes off and you get nominated, what do you do differently this time to kind of preserve your mental health in order to try and max? the opportunity, those kind of... That's a really good question. You know what? I've thought about this as well. I think if I did suddenly get super successful, I think I'd stay working at the school.

I think that would be amazing. That would be cool. Yeah. I think that would be really good for me. And then, I don't know, it's hard, isn't it? Really. I mean, I guess try harder and build up more of the online following, which isn't, I hate all of that. You know, we all do, don't we? The whole Instagram.

TikTok trying to build up of audience on there. I would have thought we didn't talk about that aspect of it. I wouldn't have assumed that you hate it because you're good at it and you've got a crowd. I mean, is it's good at the Twitch stuff. I haven't been amazing. I mean, one of my regrets actually was that I was really good at Twitter and my clips from Twitch

did really well on Twitter and I'd edit them a certain way that was perfect and they'd get retweeted and people loved it. I never bothered with the short. form the um what do you call it horizontal screen stuff i just thought i hate that i don't want to film stuff that way i never bothered with it and then i kind of fell behind because then when twitter died i didn't have a strong instagram thing oh when you say horrid did you mean portrait yeah did i say the wrong yeah you said the opposite one yeah horizontal yeah horizontal horizontal vertical vertical yeah but yeah vertical is that vertical that's vertical that's

Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry about that. It's the best bit. I'm cutting everything else. I'm really embarrassed myself. Sorry. Yeah, you know what I mean.

You didn't kind of optimise for the form which then became the most successful form. No, because I was like, I hate that. It doesn't make any sense. You know, you got up watching TV and films that way.

Yeah. Why am I going to do that? You know, I still hate it, really. But yeah, I didn't adapt to that. I saw a thing recently on, it was like a breakdown of a new Pixar trailer and it showed that everything in the...

Did you see this? Everything happens in the middle third of the screen because they're optimising for portrait. Isn't that sad? That is so depressing. I find that stuff so upsetting. But yeah, I didn't. I never...

I was just... I think when I get any success, I'm very happy with it and I'm very comfortable and I don't push myself super hard. Which, I don't know, isn't that a good thing? Is it... It's hard to tell, isn't it?

I always think I don't dream big enough. I protect myself. I make plans. When I protect myself, I'm super cautious about everything. Like I could have. I don't know if it's good. When I had my Twitch success,

I could have absolutely rinsed my audience. And I could have done loads of stuff that I could have stuck loads of stuff behind a paywall. And I could have done loads of crap. I did a bit of merch, but I did it with a guy who took a cut. And I didn't really get that much. But I could have been very greedy and made a lot of money.

But I didn't want to. I was very. satisfied and I was really I was so happy these people liked me that I would just put out loads of stuff for free and maybe too much stuff you know what I mean so I don't know I guess I'd have to have a proper plan if that happened again but also no you know what really what I think what I really really want is to sell I think my dream is to do like a tour when I where it's sort of two to 300 seers and sell that out

because that would be loads of money and because now when I do a tour the amount of money it makes is okay but it's not enough for the amount of work

you put in you know what I mean I feel like if you're doing a tour it should be like a big like enough money for the year

kind of do you know what I mean when I say by the way when I say enough money for the year I mean 20 grand I don't mean

100 grand just so people understand right but I think I'd be very content doing that. I really like this is why I love people like Limmy.

He's created his own thing. He's got his own audience. I don't want to be really going on a lot of this. I didn't try to get on SNL UK, right? Because it's not for me. I'm not slagging it off. It's not for me. I don't like the American current SNL. And I'm not going to force myself into doing these things I don't want to do. There's the odd thing that seems appealing, but

but for the most part, a lot of the stuff I just don't want do it. And it's nice to feel like that as well. Nice to feel comfortable in that. I wonder if there's a parallel there. I remember when I started street performing, very young, teenager, I thought, oh my God, I need never get a real job. And then when I became good at street performing, and was making decent money brackets

for street performing, enough money to get buy on, I remember thinking, I cannot imagine ever having a boss. And I think that I wonder if there's a parallel with the Twitch stuff, making money romping around your own imagination, and it works and you make some money. And then the idea, maybe it frees you up, maybe it changes the way you look at other opportunities because you're like, okay, were I to do SNL?

Well, it wouldn't be as good as me being able to be my own boss. Yeah. So maybe I don't want to do that. And I don't know if that's good or bad. I don't know if the term's good or bad are kind of relevant to it. I just think it's an interesting parallel that you sort of go, I've done a thing under my own steam,

I've made all my own decisions, no one was my boss, actually that's preferable just for the sake of the creative freedom of it. Or maybe it's like an internal switch that kind of happens where you go, this is. Also, I should say I'm a bit of a snob,

to be honest, when it comes to like, I don't know, like, when I see people doing like betting adverts and stuff, I'm sorry if you've done one. I'm not. I'm imagine you did. There's an incredible chapter of John Robbins' book, Thirst, which is all about alcoholism,

and one chapter is about betting adverts. And if you were considering doing a betting advert, and I'm speaking to the listener here, who may or may not be a comedian, read that chapter and then do not do a betting advert. He puts such a, such a coherent and brilliant excoriating case for why you should never touch it with a barge-hop. And I've always been, I was always raised in a way that it was like, my parents would say, you have to earn money the right way, right? Yes. You've got to do it the right way.

And so I've turned down, because annoyingly, because I do football related stuff, I've turned down stuff from betting companies and alcohol brands, you know. Sure, okay. So I've got that. And then also I have the thing with comedy, there's just lots of stuff. I just think, I just think this isn't going to be good, you know, when you get an email about it or there's just lots of stuff. I think that's snobbery.

I think that's quality control, isn't it? Maybe. Yeah, that's fear. But I do think stuff is beneath me. That's what I'm saying. I've always had that a bit. Yeah. Last question.

Are you happy? Oh, right now, yes. Yeah. But it's very recent. That's the thing. I've been in this job for three months. And that's how long I've felt happy. You know?

Obviously, not every day is perfect. But honestly, I was going through a, like, a nightmare before where you know how it is in comedy. like I'm owed money now from January right like it's absolutely horrible all of that having to chase all these things and just so stressful and then things getting cancelled and all these opportunities that don't quite happen that you get you know how I mean I've had so many things even like acting work that I've been really close to where I've got to the point where you meet the director and go in and then he's just not quite right and that could have been a big one it's just all these things just go around your head all the time and you're always blaming yourself which you know it's not our fault most of the time anyway is it really as things happen so all these things i mean it's like and it's only when you're out of it that you realize how bad it was like you just think oh you're in the rhythm of feeling bad all the time yeah yeah yeah yeah you just think oh you know and there was a feeling of like probably if i did get a little job

like i had like an audition for an advert which it Again, I don't want to do adverts. I really hate adverts. Like, I really think they're evil. You know what I mean? I'm so against it. But I've had to go for some sometimes. And there was one I auditioned I did,

which I would have got $25 grand if I got it. And I don't know if I got that. It was literally just before that I got the teaching job. I don't know how long that would have kept me happy. Or I can't say, maybe it would have been amazing and transformed everything, but I think it probably wouldn't, you know, because I still would have been the same, essentially.

So I am. Right now, I can genuinely say I'm overall, overall quite happy, yeah. And I'm excited about Edinburgh. Thanks, man. So we can see you at the Edinburgh Fringe, and we can go at your website and your Twitch thing. People, it's Zaffa Cakes. Yeah, Twitch.

Do you pronounce that as a FARCakes? Well, the thing is, I used to say Zaffer, but people say Zafar, which sounds better. And that's where Zaffer cakes came from, but it doesn't leave that. Yeah. Okay, fine. And also, you have a podcast? I have a podcast I do with comedian Joey Page.

It's called Got a Problem, Mead. Yeah, Got a Problem mate. Or Gapham, Gapham for short. And it's very stupid and more people should listen to it. Thank you. Excellent. I saw a clip of that with Carl Donnell. It was very funny.

Oh, did you? Yeah. Yeah. Cheers. Nice one. So that was Bilal Rubicon. It's 830pm in the Jersey Underbelly Bristow Square and that's the Edinburgh Fringe. So get your tickets at edfring.com. If you enjoyed this episode, you can get access to exclusive extras that you can't find anywhere else by joining the Insiders Club on Patreon. We'll talk about his 2017 show about online dating and how that underperformed and how he cope with it.

We'll talk about entering the industry naive to how the ups and downs work. And we'll talk, of course, about moving into stand-up storytelling. all of that, patreon.com.com slash comcom pod, and go to Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy to find out how to see myself live. Thank you to Below. It was so lovely. I'm sorry this is in such a rush. This is the last blurbs I record before I take a break for summer and do the festival. There's more episodes coming out, but I think everything is sort of scheduled now. And I'm literally, I'm going to run off and be on someone else's podcast and I'm going to be late unless I leave now. Thank you to Susie Lewis for the logging, producer Callum. Thanks to Bilal, of course, and Julian

Hall who helped set that up and our insider producers LHRS, I-C-D-D-D-P-K-S-A-J-L-G-G-M-G-M-L-C-S-D-S-D-A-W, P-S-A-W and James Burry. I couldn't be bothered to abbreviate. A big thank you as well to our special Insider Executive producers, Neil Hott Peters and Andrew Pepsi-Dennant and to the Super Secret one as well. Will there be a post-amble? Will there my eye? I've got to run.

Please, as we go into. the Edinburgh Festival. It has never been more important that you remember and maintain a consistent sense of self. Love to you all, especially the long-term comedians who listen to every episode of this probably don't make it this far, but are going up to Edinburgh and feeling variously stressed and freaking out about everything. Don't worry, it's all going to be all right.