The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - Charlene Kaye

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

Charlene Kaye is a musician and comedian based in New York who has toured the world, opening for bands like the Arctic Monkeys and Metallica. You may have seen her "Every Taylor Swift Song" skit which now sits at out 100 million views - or in her two cover bands, Guns N’ Hoses (all-girl GNR) and Labiahead (all girl Radiohead). She's now back with her new show Diversity Shredder, including dates at London's Underbelly. In this episode we discuss:why Tenacious D and Flight of the Conchords works so wellis the feeling of being a rockstar and a comedian the same thing?does being successful in one creative field help starting in stand-upbuilding her first stand-up show from a notebook about her mumperforming to incompatible fan baseshacking algorithms through retention loops and hook writinghow a Taylor Swift parody changed everythingand we find out if Charlene is happy...Join the Insiders Club at Patreon.com/ComComPod where you can instantly WATCH the full episode and get access to 15 minutes of exclusive extras including:how ego shows up differently in music vs comedywhen your safety net becomes part of the actand turning real-life tension into art👉 Sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok.Catch Up with Charlene: Charlene Kaye: Diversity Shredder is at at London's Underbelly next week on Wednesday 8th and Thursday 9th April. You find out more live dates at kayeofficial.com. You can also follow her on Instagram, @charlenekaye.Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod:✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ 15 minutes of exclusive extra content with Charlene✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including weekly(ish) Stu&AsPLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE including dates in Bristol, London, Manchester, Stoke, Marlborough, LA and Mach! Find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy. Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.Get in touch: If you’re listening and thinking ‘I’d love to work with ComComPod on getting something out there’ or ‘there’s someone you should absolutely have on’ - drop us an email at [e-mail]! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Stuart Goldsmith. This is the Comedians, Comedian podcast. I said that the wrong way round for once. Lovely to have a change, isn't it? Today, I am thrilled to be talking to Charlene Kay, who I was introduced to in a very amusing fashion, as you will shortly hear. She is a musician. Another one. Don't worry, we haven't turned into the musician's musician. She is also an excellent comedian. She's based in New York, but as a musician, she has toured the world opening for bands like the Arctic Monkey. and Metallica. You will almost certainly have seen her every Taylor Swift song, viral thing, skit, meme. What is she done? It's a bit. It's a bit online. It now sits at around 100 million views. So she's definitely one of those people who you hear of and go, oh, that's her, as is so often the case these days. And she's now back with her new show, Diversity Shredder, which is going to

the tour of which includes some dates at London's Underbelly next week on Wednesday, the 8th and Thursday, the 9th of April. She's loads of fun and in this episode we are going to discuss in the first half. We'll talk about whether being successful in one creative field helps starting in stand-up. We'll talk about whether the feeling of being a rock star and a comedian is the same thing. Can you be funny while actually shredding? That's a guitar term that I now know. We'll find out why Tadatius D and Flight of the Concords work so well and we will find out about her building up. I've thrown there by the bullets because the last two bullet points are building.

her first stand-up show from a notebook about her mum. And the second one is whether or not I should start singing lessons. And I thought we'd cut that bit. But never mind. Charlene Kay is with us in just a second. You can have extra content with her and the full back catalogue as well as instant ad-free access. Imagine. You know how good access is?

Imagine if it was ad-free to the full audio and video of all of this. Plus the new formats, June A and the lovely warm feeling inside that you get when you contribute. you've been a thing you love, which is not to be sniffed at. All of that is available for only £3 a month if you go to the Patreon, which is patreon.com.com slash comcom pod and sign up. But all that said, here's Charlene K. Mate, I am so excited to have you on the show. Our relationship, which begins now, actually began with a very funny email exchange in which you somehow manage to send me a near perfect, hey, I'd love to talk to you on the podcast email that made reference to specific people I know and things I've done and what have you.

And yet managed to have dear square brackets name, closed square brackets at the top. And I don't even know how that's possible. Mortifying. I know. Because, you know, all the boring stuff does come afterwards. But I do know who you are. And I was like, so I sent a follow up and I was like, oh my God, I'm so embarrassed. but like please know that I'm familiar with your comedy out and I'm a fan. I was never, he's never going to respond. I just thought it was so good. I thought this is so good.

How shrewd is Charlene? Is this actually a deliberate way to stand out? Not very shrewd, apparently. Not very shrewd. But I'm so glad he responded, though. Oh, I'm absolutely thrilled to have you because, and this happens from time to time, not often, but this does happen that someone about, someone of whom I'm not with whom I'm not that well acquainted, I think actually having watched a bunch of your stuff, I'm like, oh, I already followed you on Instagram, and I've seen you do the Taylor Swift bit, and bits and bobs.

But I didn't connect, I didn't connect that with your email. What's happened is that I've gone, hey, this person looks interesting, checked you out, thought, yeah, great, let's talk to you. And then in the interim, literally this morning, I watched the, you have a video on YouTube of you live at Union Pool, doing serious songs and, or some mostly serious songs, and then chatting to the audience in between. And I'm just your biggest. fan. You watched that one? Oh my God. I'm so touched. I was coming to this thinking, this will be interesting. Charlene's funny. There'll be stuff to talk about with the fact that you are an actual bona fide kind of pop star who's becoming or has become a stand-up. That's fascinating.

There's some stuff about your mother that I'd be very interested to talk to you about. And so I was already up for it. And then I watched that this morning and I was like, I was almost in tears, man. You're incredible. Oh my God. I'm so touched that you watched that one because I feel like my music career is like my crusty old wife that I've left in the basement for a while. And like, comedy is like my new hot girlfriend that's like, come on, babe, let's go to Gales with Margaret Cho. And the wife is like, why don't you fuck me anymore? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

But, you know, that's my longest relationship. And like, that's where I started. So I'm really appreciative that you watched that and you liked it. Well, it's wonderful to have you. Can you just tell us, tell the listener who may not be so familiar with you, what is your relationship to stand up? because I made certain assumptions based on your email and what have you. And then I'm like, oh, you did the Edinburgh of Fringe last year.

I didn't see you there, but I was kind of in and out. So tell us where you are with comedy. Yeah, so I am relatively new to comedy. And I'm saying that to, you know, encourage anyone who is new to something, not to be afraid to jump in and try it. And I am primarily a musician. I started playing classical piano like any other good Asian when I was five. and had a very, very long relationship with music and still do.

In my 20s, I toured all over the world with my music and played guitar and bass backing up a bunch of other bands. And I had a long career as a side man. So I played on a bunch of, you know, major TV shows behind white pop stars and like played all the major music festivals and stuff. And I was like... Is that what a sideman is? I didn't know that terminology. Yeah. Okay.

Gotcha. So it's like if there's a main... Temporary band. Exactly, yeah. So you're a hired gun. So that's how I made my living for many years. And I just wanted to be close to music so badly. And I did that. And I have so many stories from being an indie rocker and also being, you know, adjacent to the big pop sphere, which is probably why I have such a perspective on dissecting pop music in this comedic way. And I got into comedy because when everything shut down in 2020, I got kind of, my My sister, who was a filmmaker, had this book on acting that was laying around. And I was like, I'm bored. I'll just read this and see what it's like. And I really thought it was fascinating because as a musician, I'm always interested in the human condition.

I'm interested in how ephemeral music and other forms of art is. And I really think that everything connects. Like, anytime you study a different form of art, it contributes back to your primary art form. And so I was like, I think this could be really interesting if I just took a Zoom acting class. It feels like very low barrier to entry. And it's something that I've always been interested in. But to be totally honest, when I was interested in theater as a kid, I grew up in Arizona, which is a very white place.

And when I auditioned for Peter Pan, I had the audacity to audition for Peter Pan, like the role of Peter Pan. And I was cast as a tribal Indian. Oh, fuck. Yeah, which is a very common thing that I've talked to other Asian folks who grew up in like the suburbs of America. and it was just a different time. Like, I'm going to be 40 this year. And so back then it was like, the progress was not the way that it is now. So I think that kind of made an impression on me that, like, people that look like me don't really do that.

And so later in life, when I found this acting book, I was like, I'm really curious about this. So let me take this acting class. It's going to be chill. No one's going to see me be bad because it's just going to be over Zoom. and I really took to it quickly and really enjoyed the process of understanding how to personalize a scene, how I can bring my own experience into it. And I'm glad that I did it later in life, quote unquote, because I had a lot of personal experience to draw from. And I'd been through some stuff and I'd lost people.

And it just felt like I had experienced enough stuff where it didn't feel like I was inventing traumatic situations in my head so I could relate to certain things. Like I already had that. And halfway through the class, one of my classmates was like, hey, I'm putting together this night of works and progress. Is there anything that you'd want to share? And I was like, I don't really have any like monologues or anything like that, but I do have a Google document with all these stories about my mom that I've been collecting for years and years. And why don't I just put together a family-style PowerPoint presentation and just tell the stories for anybody who wants to come. So I put it up on, I advertised the show and I was like, hey, like you guys know me

as a musician, but this is something new that I'm trying. If anybody wants to come, you're more than welcome to. And I did the first ever iteration of Tiger Daughter, and it was very casual. and I just told the stories without too much structure. And people were in stitches. And it was so interesting because I had been telling these stories to friends my entire life. Like, stories about how she bribed me $300 to get her identical Bob haircut because she wanted me to be her mini-me. And like stories about how she hired me to record and produce her own album where she covered my song. songs. And I play this.

Oh my God. Yeah. And I play them side by side. Like her, her dream was to be a pop star when she was young. And so there's a whole, there's so much to dig into about her coming to America as an immigrant. And then what happens when you sacrifice your dreams and then your kids end up living the dreams that you wanted? So it ended up being something that was so interesting for me to dig into as a person and as like an adult because knowing that these things have been haunting me my whole life while I've been pursuing music, knowing that I've always been kind of disappointed her and there's been this kind of like mother-daughter jealousy that I've navigated my whole life too. But yeah, that was my entry into comedy because it was comedic naturally because of the

fundamental cultural and generational misunderstandings that we have. Like she she puts me in classical music lessons so that I can be well-rounded enough for college. And I'm like, oh, I want to take that musical knowledge to make an all-girl Guns and Roses cover band called Guns and Hoses. So our merch can say, welcome to the Vajunzel. And she's like, why would you do that? Like, it's so, we don't understand each other, but we love each other. And that's something that I'm, I think about a lot. Okay. So that, I mean, that sounds like the most organic possible way to write a comedy show is to be motivated to just share some stories in an environment which isn't even like it's no one's like hey come and be funny now they're

just like would you like to perform it like works in progress kind of environment did you have an and did you did you recognize from telling the stories socially that they were funny and were you anticipating getting laughs on the night on that kind of opening experience I guess I couldn't have predicted because I had never done stand-up before. So I came into it with a let's just pretend all these people are in my living room and I'm telling them stories as if I would tell my best friends, which is ironically how I like to approach my stand-up now. Sure. And I think that it's fun when everyone feels sort of like in on the joke together and you feel like in communion with the human race. But yeah, back then I was like, this is fun.

funny to me. And I think if it's funny to me, how do I get that over the net to help people understand why this is so frustrating? And like, I think the nature of comedy is misunderstanding and like somebody thinking one thing. And then someone is completely like mistranslating that to mean something else. And that's kind of the nature of our relationship. And I think everyone has their own version of that with their parents and some there's everyone has disappointed their parents in some way or another so I was very grateful when I initially thought that it was going to be too niche or that like only Asian people would be able to understand the very particular dynamics of an immigrant mom. Since I've been doing the show for about three years I had I've had

people come up to me and go oh I'm Greek and you told my story or like I wanted my mom wanted me to be a dentist and I wanted to be a clown or like, you know, mapping their own versions onto it. But you were going into it, not thinking this is a meaningful one woman show type experience, but you were sort of thinking, I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest and I think it's funny. Was there like a comment? I'm just kind of drilling into that, the comedy origin. Like the notion was, I think people will laugh at this. And the stakes are low because the night isn't about promising to make people laugh. Yeah, exactly. I didn't even know what Edinburgh Fringe was. I didn't, I hadn't seen very many.

other one person shows to know that this was like a popular format. I was kind of just kind of working it out for myself and figuring out like how I could translate this story in a way that felt like satisfying in the way that music does to me. Yeah. Yeah. Because when I write when I write albums, it's a thesis of a very particular chapter of my life. and it's more earnest. It doesn't have punchlines. It doesn't have that audience interaction that comedy does. But I love all of them because it reminds me of how I felt at the time.

And it's a time capsule of that very specific feeling, whether that be longing or grief or joy or what have you. And with comedy, it's like, I love how it feels much more interactive. And you can see in real time how people are, are how it's landing for every individual person. So it feels like more of an exchange. I mean, as like there have been people I've interviewed, I'm sure we all know comics who are,

you know, they've had a very, they've had a full life doing a different career. Like someone's been, you know, a pharmaceutical rep or a doctor or something, you know, a really full kind of career. Ordinarily, I feel like the few people I know who have come to comedy from another creative career, be that in theatre or music or what have you, haven't been quite so established in that creative career.

It's like I've kind of looked at you on Spotify. You've got multiple albums. As you say, you were a side man. It's a shame that that is still such a gendered term, but it's quite fun to hear you call yourself a side man in the music industry. So that is a very, that's like a really comprehensive career. That's not, you weren't dabbling. That was like a full-on career for a couple of decades.

So with that in mind, when you brought yourself to comedy, when you came off stage from that first funny one-hour show and went, oh, hang on, these stories work and there's an opening here, if you weren't a person at the time who had a particular understanding of stand-up, did you find that that made it easier to try a new thing? I think a lot of people who haven't yet switched lanes might look at comedy and go, oh, well, I could never do that, because that's so different and so kind of,

Not that it, I mean, it is demanding, but I suppose from the outside in particular, I think a lot of people think I could never do that. Probably more people think I could never do that about comedy than most other professions. Did you have a sense of, I could never do that? Or did you have a sense of, well, I've written and I've spoken and I'm very confident in front of a crowd. How hard, how much different can it be? That's a great question. I didn't even know I was doing. Thank you. It was a very long question, but I feel I got there. beautiful. No, it was very thoughtful. I don't think I even knew I was doing stand-up, but it resembled stand-up because I was saying things and people were laughing. But to be honest, I still have a lot of imposter syndrome around doing pure stand-up because I do a lot of musical comedy, which is where I feel most at home because of my background as a musician. But I have such respect and admiration for pure stand-ups because it's such a different art form and the pacing of it and like the like where you put where you put punchlines how you tell a

story how you deliberate on something like how you like extend a story is all something I think about and it's something that I'm actively working on in addition to my musical comedy but I I feel like having the sensibility of music where there is a build and a payoff and you have people that are going on this journey with you and you want it to be cathartic, I think I had that understanding going into comedy. And I was already a comfortable performer from being a musician and being a front person. And so with comedy, I feel like part of the game is getting the audience to trust you because then you can subvert their expectations. And there are comics that are so good at that, like John Marco, who I saw you're doing a show with in May. And I'll be there. So it'll be there.

So it's me there. Yes, you're going to be in LA for Netflix. Yeah, great. Excellent. I can't wait. Yeah, I feel like he's somebody who he's so good at talking about something serious and like bringing you in and like getting you to trust him. Then he completely like pulls the rug out and you're like so and you laugh because you're so surprised. And so I think that that's something that I think about all the time.

And with music like the comedy songs that I've written usually have a flip like towards the end where like I'm so mad about something. But then I thought, but then I realized that I was. an idiot because of such and such reason. So it's a it's a it's a learning process. I I feel like there's so many similar threads and I'm constantly pulling from each of them to in to strengthen the other. It's interesting because like I think I mean I can't remember who said this. I have certainly heard it said that all comics want to be rock stars and all rock stars want to be I've heard that too. Well, so what?

And so if you've stood on stage playing the guitar, crushing in like, you know, some huge outdoor event, I think probably like in terms of an outdoor festival, I once, I don't know if you're aware of the Scottish two-piece, the Proclaimers, but I once was a host at like a Ben and Jerry's outdoor festival event. It's like 12,000 and a half thousand people. And I brought the Proclaimers on stage. And I was so filled with adrenaline. I was doing cartwheels backstage.

And I'm not even the Proclaimers. Just the vastness of the energy was absolutely extraordinary. When it's you on stage playing the guitar and killing, which is better to you? Or what are the differences between them than when you're crushing it at a comedy gig? Okay, I would say that I know I'm really good at guitar and I have had the experience of shredding for thousands of people. And it's an incredible feeling,

especially because you can feel the vibrations in your body when you're playing and there's nothing like the feeling of playing super loud distorted electric guitar you feel fucking immortal but i will say that because that's that's something that i have done and i and i know that i am good at there's when i tell a really good joke for the first time and five people laugh it's the same feeling i'm like i'm fucking i'm a golden god I fucking nailed that. And I think there's something about the novelty of stand-up where I feel like I'm still kind of like getting on my training wheels

and like figuring out how to deliver a joke. It's so exciting when it works. Does that still happen for you? Like when you work out something new joke? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that you say, oh, it's the new joke. Because that's it for me. It's the new joke.

I am so much less interested. There is so much less electricity and kind of vibration and everything when you're doing a bit that you know works. Like because then you're kind of testing it against its best ever version of itself. Is this the best ever version? Is that? Oh, it's only, they only gave me 99% of how well I know this joke can do. But the new thing, absolutely. And it's thrilling to me as someone who has not a musical bone in his body to think that, oh, I've managed to skip years of guitar practice.

I get the same thing. Oh, that's got. I know what that feeling's like. How wonderful. Well, wait until you master electric guitar. tell you you're going to be a golden god too well there there is there is a question for me for me about um the nature of what it's like to have done the work in advance because that that's that's a fundamental difference as a comic yes i've done the i've done some reps you know i haven't necessarily

played till my fingers bled but i drove till i nearly crashed you know i like i've i've done some reps but when you're walking on stage with profound musical ability like a lifetime of practice. Presumably, when you take, when you take that meant, when you're carrying a guitar on stage at a comedy gig, part of you is thinking, well, the stakes are low here, because even if no one laughs, I just do the magic thing that I can do, and they'll all, I'm definitely getting a round of applause at the end of the song. Do you know what I mean? So does the, does the, does the, I would suggest reduction, maybe that's the wrong term, but maybe the, those, does the stakes being different, change the

you know there's a British comic Marcus Briggs stock fantastic comic he said on this show 10 years ago he talked about the comic's superbrain

when you're in the moment and you suddenly spontaneously fix the joke compared to the rubbish version of it that you wrote earlier because the jeopardy

of the crowd being there is the moment does that super brain moment happen less because there's less jeopardy because you know you've got

the skill I mean, I think that crowdwork and thinking on the fly when you're telling a joke is such a learned skill. And it's improv in a way that I'm not as I haven't put in as many reps. So yes, I'm much more comfortable writing a funny song that has punchlines baked in because I am not as good at thinking on the fly. Although I'm getting I'm getting better and that's something that I'm like working towards slowly. But you're right. Like, I think that having the instrument is, it can be a crutch. And I also think that the songs that I write, I am proud of and I think there's nothing.

I don't think anyone is really doing what exactly what I'm doing. So I'm, I don't think that it's like a cheat in that way because I've seen musical comedy that totally bombs. And I can tell also when I'm playing my songs and I'm bombing. Okay. You can feel it. And so, and so I think that. Is it as bad as bombing without a guitar? Does the guitar afford you any protection to the bomb?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it does. It does. It's so much worse without because then it's just silence. Like, you're just like, see, you're just like hearing people breathe and you're, like, your soul leaves your body and you're just kind of watching your soul like flail from a third person perspective. So, so yeah, I do think that it's, it's different. I mean, I was listening to.

Tim Minchin when I was working out this morning. And I think that it's like, I don't, yeah, I don't think it's better or worse. I remember reading an interview of Anthony Jessenick where he was like, oh, if you play guitar on stage, you're a fucking hack. And I was like, ouch. But I appreciate that standup is its own art form. And it's, there's something that is like so uniquely difficult about. saving a joke and like having that comic brain and thinking on your toes to create humor out of thin

air depending on what somebody said like I really admire that yeah and to be fair jeselnick isn't talking about your level of guitar playing ability do you know what I mean I think that's a very different thing we're talking to thank you for talking to specifically me anthony jessonick given that your ability with the guitar is such like is there a kind of um Is there ever, or do you have any material in which you achieve kind of like the perfect synergy of not just playing the guitar, but shredding and comedy? Like, can you shred in a funny way? Is that possible or is that just like a, is that sort of an aspiration even? Is that something you think of?

Oh, absolutely. One of my biggest comedy inspirations is Tenacious D. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they are the kings of like metal comedy. and the two of them together, like, have such a virtuosic and, like, silly style. And I, like, listen to it regularly all the time. I was, I was at some, I was at some event recently.

And someone was like, oh, what's your, what's your comedy like? Is it like Ali Wong? And I was like, no, it's more like tenacious D. Yeah, nice. And I just, yeah, I just love that sort of, like, punk rock, metal attitude that also has like a like a super freaky silly energy to it and it's really that that first tenacious D album and and Flight of the Concordes was like a huge part of my my sense of humor formation. I think it's funny when you mentioned Golden God earlier on I was like it's pure KG isn't it?

That's great. Oh, you thought that nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. But like it's interesting because I think like with Tenacious D you've got Jack Blanchee, you've got Jack Black's unbelievable kind of rock, is it, I don't even know the words, is he a rock tenor? He's just got this voice which is just like extraordinary. Oh my God. Yeah. It's virtuosic, yeah. So he can be funny with his voice because of what he's singing and how he's singing it.

And Kyle is, like, is the, what he's doing with the guitar is funny if it's a sudden surprise or a change or something. But the notes themselves, are they the joke? Do you mean? Is it the guitar that's funny? I'm just, I'm just interested. interested in pursuing that idea because I absolutely, you know, like you definitely have got something in common with Tenacious D and the kind of the sort of embracing of the kind of, like you've described, that kind of the electricity of just like, this isn't guitar comedy, this is fucking rock, you know, with jokes in it. But yeah, I wonder like, what's the moment for you when those two things combine the best? What's the moment on stage? Do you get moments when you're like,

I'm fucking doing both? Like, right? right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm working on it actually with my new show, which is called Diversity Shredder. And it's kind of commentary about my time as a side man, sidewoman, in all of these, in all of these absurd high stakes pop gigs. But to answer your question about like what makes shredding funny, there's, what song is it? I think it's actually in The Greatest Song in the World.

tribute, where the metal guitars are raging and KG chooses to do the solo on acoustic guitar. And it sounds so dinky and like hilarious. And I'm like, you could have chosen like the most like scorching electric tone for this, but you're choosing to do it like, be it. And like that in itself is comedy to me. Because it's so the choice is hysterical. And, you know, when they're, there's, and it's not just the shredding. I think it's the context in which everything sits.

It's their attitude of like, we are the biggest fucking stars in the world. And we're two fat guys that are going to be the biggest, the shreddiest, sexiest gods, you know. And I love that. I think you have to be a little bit delusional to be a rock star and a comedian. And they just like lean into it full force. They treat themselves like their, her voice. And Dave Grohl of Nirvana is their drummer. And he plays the devil in their music videos and in their movies,

which is so fucking badass. And like, how dare they get such a get for that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just to, we'll get back on track in a second, but just to nerd out over the day for a minute, because this is a fun experience for me with someone who really, who really knows what knows it inside out. Oh, my God, yes.

The tune from the Pick of Destiny, which is like the, and I heard that album before. I saw the movie. I had heard that the movie sucked and then I'm like I know the album by heart and then I saw the movie and I'm all the movie is incredible if you know the album by heart. Yes, yes. The the rock off with the devil at the end. Just the line, this like the demon code prevents me from declining a rock off challenge. To me that sits so perfectly as like a distillation of the insanity of what they're, of what they do. I just, I've just kind of, I love it to bits. It's, um, I think on the few times that I,

thought to myself, I wonder if I should learn an instrument. I thought it would have to be something that could never be used for comedy because I want to, like I think, I haven't ruined comedy for myself, but I've drunk very deeply from the well of comedy over the years and my own gigs and with this podcast and everything else. And so I enjoy it differently. I'll nod and go, yes, that's funny rather than laughing, that kind of, you know, dickhead behavior. But I've often thought to myself, I don't want to know how songs work, because if I know how songs work, I won't love them so much. Is that a thing? Or is that a real thing?

Is that a concern? Or is that just nonsense in my head? Actually, I think that because I understand how music works is how I'm able to comedically break it down. And I wouldn't be able to have, I wouldn't have been able to do the Taylor Swift breakdown if I didn't understand theory. So if anything, it sort of deepens my appreciation for music because I understand why,

I understand what they're doing and why it. it works on a theory level to support the message of the song. Like, hopefully this isn't too technical, but I was listening to this song by Tim Minchin earlier today. And he's playing an F, and he's singing a note in F sharp, just to illustrate that his brain wants to do something

that his hands aren't doing. And it's like a metaphor for, like, being kind of split when you're trying to make decisions. And it's so, it's so dissonant. and like ugly sounding, but it's incredibly difficult to sing a half sharp, a half step higher than the key that you're playing in. And I was just marveling at how, at his musicality to support the meaning and the purpose of the

song. So it's not, it's not just out of nowhere. It's like, it's, it's a musical equivalent to the story. Yes. So that's why I appreciate that. Do you feel that way about jokes? Like, do you feel like understanding it? Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. I suppose I've always thought to myself, like, if I knew something was an F sharp, it would take me out of the song because I'd go, oh, that's an F sharp. But the reality is, coming back to Tenacious D, there are certain songs they're doing which are specifically riffing on Judas Priest or specifically riffing on a different, you know, on Metallica or something. And when you know that, it absolutely makes it deeper. So I feel like I have actually experienced kind of an element of that,

because I'm like, oh, I know the context of this well enough. Or Lonely Island, you know, Lonely Island will do a particular rap. And you go, oh, they're specifically skewering this style of rap with that. Yes. So it does have that depth to it. Yeah, right. Huge Lonely Island fan too. Oh, man, same, same.

Yeah, yeah. You really like musical comedy. Yeah, I think I do. Maybe you should play an instrument. Oh, God. I'll help you on this journey, Stuart. Oh, thank you. I feel like I can't, I cannot sing.

You know, those conversations where people go, what super power would you have? It would be flight or invisibility. And I'm like singing. I would just love to be able to sing. Have you ever taken a singing lesson? Oh, yes, but I was a street performer for a long time, and I shouted a lot on the street, and I think I blew my voice out.

I don't think, I feel like I'm physically incapable now. I don't know. I believe in you. I think that this is a latent interest that you should be. Well, thank you. We'll pursue this at a later day, and I may take you up on that, because I do, I absolutely love, I love a funny song when the, and specifically when the, and specifically when the chorus isn't repeated when it's like we're just here for the best bits. Here's all the best

stuff. Totally. Absolutely. Absolutely love it. Charlene Kay's fantastic new show, Diversity Shredder, is at London's Underbelly next week. That's a, if you're less familiar with that, that's a venue and a festival rather than being just the sort of the grim underbelly of London, which it also has one of those, but it's probably less trademarked. Next week, it's on Wednesday, the 8th and Thursday, the 9th of April. Find out more. K official.com. That's K with an E on the end, K official.com. And you can also follow her on her Instagram at Charlene K. You can see me live in London tonight. That's 9pm at the Pleasants, doing a work in progress. It's called climate confessions at the moment. But it is

nonetheless the show that's going to become the proper official version of this show. Title as yet unreleased, I think, unless it's on sale. Check, check and find out whether we've accidentally released the title. I've been saving it up. But it's entirely possible that it's gone It's gone online for sale with Monkey Barrel. But my point is, it's tonight at the Pleasance. And there are upcoming dates in Manchester, Stoke, Milton Keynes, Bristol, Marlborough, Mac, Monmouth and Los Angeles, California, USA. If that's still a place by the time I get there.

Find out more at Stuart Golsmith.com.com.com. And sign up to the Comcom Pod monthly mailing list there also. In the second half of this interview with Charlene K, we will talk about how her Taylor Swift parody changed everything. We'll talk about performing to incompatible fan bases. That's a fun bit, if painful. We'll find out how musical comedy can be a cheat code at first. We'll talk about retention loops.

If you know what those are, oh, that's a good bit. I think on reflection we should have kept that for the Patreon. But no, no, no, producer Callum, you're the boss. So we'll just give away all of that fascinating viral type knowledge. And we will find out about learning to perform. without a fallback, as well as finding out whether or not this bastard's happy. So let's get back to this episode with Sharney. I saw on your Instagram feed your bit about the alternative MAGA Super Bowl half-time.

Oh my gosh. Which is such, I mean, that's quite a good example of it because you're, you're, like, you really are pastiche in the kind of kid rock thing. And in the carry underwood moment of going, Jesus, take the files. I was howling. Oh my gosh, thanks. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So I think that those things fit both. On that union pool show, you said, I don't know when that was taped because at one point you said, I'm not a stand-up comedian. And I was thinking, oh, is that how you see yourself? And you mentioned earlier on, you mentioned kind of imposter syndrome. I was like, what do you think it will take for you to feel like you are a stand-up comedian? That's, I am like, I think I have five good jobs. And I think what it will take, I refer to myself as a stand-up comedian when I first meet people because I think musical comedy is wrapped, is a part of stand-up. But as with any art, when you know more about it, you like, you understand the different niches of it.

And I think that it would just be like practice. I think I would have to challenge myself to do some drop-in shows where I don't bring my guitar. And I do like a... Do you do that ever? Do you ever get on stage without the guitar? I started my comedy journey just doing pure stand-up before I started writing funny songs. And it was rough as it is with any time you start something new. And I completely...

I had to bomb because it's a right of passage. But I was doing something that I was doing an imitation of what I thought stand-up. was. And my stories were like very underbaked. The jokes that I was telling were like in like someone else's voice. And it was an experiment. And then I realized that it was because of my experience as a musician, it was much easier for me to write a funny song and structure it where the punchlines hit at the end of every measure. And like I'm crafting these absurd experiences into a journey through song. And I think that it's just going to take a lot of repetition

and a lot of practice and a lot of doing the same jokes over and over again different ways to feel like I'm really in a flow. And there is so much that I want to talk about that I think can exist outside of the form of a song. But I think I'm nervous. It's a matter of when am I going to push myself out my comfort zone and just try to talk.

And Tiger Daughter is a very contained story about my relationship with my mom. And as you know, stand-up is like, it can be a longer form special. And a lot of it, but a lot of it does exist in small little bits that are like one or two minutes long. So I don't know, when did you feel like you were like a real stand-up? Like how long did it take you to feel like you got through your own? I think, well, I think the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, when I first set foot on a stand-up stage, I had mentioned earlier that week, or earlier that month to a bunch of my street performing pals, I think I'm going to do this. And a couple of them said, look, just take a trick on in your back pocket, just take some, you know, some juggling stuff or a bit of magic or something on in your back pocket. And then if you bomb, you can get that out. And I knew at the time, and I absolutely stand by this, that if I had taken anything, that if I had taken anything to fall back on, I would have, or I could have fallen back on it, and that would have been a disaster.

Now, this, you know, me doing some pissing about juggling or magic is nothing like your, your ability with the guitar. Magic is amazing, though. I have such respect for magicians. Not the way I do it. Not the way I do it. But the, but, you know, it's not like, here's a wonderful, impressive thing. It's like, well, I can definitely do a bit of business here and get away with it. And I knew that actually you have to go out with nothing and you have to go out and learn how to do it and build it with them. So vulnerable. And you did do that with your,

with that first show because you're there telling stories. So you did have that. And what I feel like I'm hearing is that you recognize that was a really good thing for your development as a comic. Because I think now if you had never done that, the imposter syndrome would be way worse. So all I would say really is that you, like, if you have a show into, you know,

if you're at a festival or like Melbourne or Edinburgh or something, you're like a big, long slog of a festival. In your position, I hope I would be, trying to get up without the guitar as often as I possibly could. Because you know you can add that later. So I'm making this show at the moment. So it's my second show about the climate crisis. And I had this lovely note from my director, Deke Monroe, fantastic director.

He said, let's just know, Stu, that you're funny and you're going to end up making this funny. So don't worry about that. Let's get the bedrock of it right. And I remember thinking, oh, but do I know that? And then having to accept two decades in, yeah, I do know that. This is going to be funny. So actually what I want is not simply that it's funny. I want to spend some time now getting into the guts of it and going,

what do I think? What do I say? What do I want to say? Fairly secure, fairly secure in the knowledge that that can then be funny. So I suppose it's about that, isn't it? You can sprinkle an indefinite amount of incredible guitar stuff on top of your jokes. But the jokes, do you know what I mean? like when the jokes are there anyway, when you've got a 40 without a guitar that's club stand

up and then you could go, if you go into Edinburgh, you can go, well, it's July, I'll better put all the guitar stuff in. Blam, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's so true. I mean, it's so funny with music. I have no problem. It is customary to write an album and then play that album on tour for two years. Yes. Yes, that's the single most unfair thing about music versus comedy is you can play the hands. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And with comedy, I feel like I think it's the patience of it. Like, I've been doing music for so long. With comedy, I understand that there are, there are certain jokes that you just need to workshop maybe for a long time. And then there are other jokes that come really quickly to you and you put those in the set. I think it's a matter of building material. But you're,

But you're right. I need to, I would really like to do a don't tell set someday, like, without the guitar. Because I watch that all the time, and I'm such a stand-up fan. So I think that would be really fun to work towards, not even 40 minutes, just like 10 minutes. If I can get 10 good minutes, I will be fine. And I'll be happy. Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting because that's, like, I don't imagine you would have any difficulty doing that.

You might need to wade through a couple of shitty gigs to get there. Yeah, yeah. Are you, do you feel that the, maybe the reason why you haven't done that yet is just capacity because you're so busy doing other stuff? Or is there fear in there as well? Is there like, oh, but if I, this, I mean, if I had an incredible thing like that guitar of yours, wow, I'd cling pretty hard to it, right? Yeah. It's not fear. It's more like the discomfort of doing something new.

and I need, I think that I, I think that I play more musical comedy at lineup shows because it is something that differentiates me and I, I do think that they're good compositions. And if it's like, if it's a lineup show that I know is going to be pretty high visibility, then I will put my best foot forward. So I think it's a matter of doing more low stakes shows so I can try that stuff out. And then, and then I can be in a position where I'm like, yeah, I'm just going to do pure stand-up. If not so that I don't have to bring my fucking guitar everywhere I go, because that shit's heavy. It's so, it's envy comics that just go up with nothing and they can just be like, hey.

The gear of it all. Let's talk a bit about visibility. You have a very effective promotional machine through your social media, YouTube and all the rest of it. Is that, how long have you had that? What's the relationship between that and your kind of viral success with the kind of Taylor Swift stuff? and those, that seems pretty pre-made to go explosively viral, right? You know, the K-pop, you're getting the TED talk about K-pop. You know, you're so good at understanding the guts of a musical form or an artist from the inside.

You can pastiche it in a very, very accurate way, in a short form, and the internet goes wild for it. So tell me about that journey and what the relationship is between that journey and your creativity as a comic. Yeah, I think that they both. I think it really goes hand in hand. The Taylor Swift Rio was the first thing I ever made that went super viral. And I almost didn't post it because I was so afraid of her fans ripping me apart. Yes, I think I saw on the caption or some of the captions to those kind of posts. It's like, please don't come for me, Taylor, I love you.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny because another, I posted it on close friends first. And I was like, does anyone else notice this? And then I had a friend, James Tom, who's another comic here in Brooklyn. And he was like, you have to post it. this. And I was like, oh, no, I'm scared. And he was like, Charlene, you can't live your life, being worried about what other people will think. And I was like, fighting words. And so I posted it.

And it ended up being the thing that, like, really opened up that format for a lot of my other videos. And I was like, oh, I can do Charlie XX. I can do Chaplain. I can do Duolipa and Billy. And like, all the pop people that I've been so familiar with for years. And as, as, And then I started to realize that I was really enjoying it. And I could apply that understanding to other short form videos like K-pop. And I did like, I did an Ed Shearin one. And then I have these videos where I go to guitar center and just fuck around. And like there's, I never thought of it as algorithm bait,

but it just so happened that a lot of people in those fandoms were engaging. And they were like, do this one, do that one. And I think that. Yeah, because I think part of it, sorry to interrupt, I think part of it is it's clearly done with love because you know it well enough to be able to do that. So you're not dissing the stuff so much as going, this is what I've discovered. And fans can go, we've also discovered that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's satisfying when you can connect with the fans and be like, it feels like one big inside joke. Like Ed Shearin does only sing about how he's mad at his label or he's in love with his wife. There are only two topics. And everyone's like, oh, I never had the language. for the way that these chords work, but now I do. And it's fun that it's sort of like an educational thing in addition to it being like a

group joke. But yeah, like the like the MAGA thing, like I'm a huge weird Al fan. I always have been. And so it comes really easy to me to change the lyrics to existing songs because that's something that I do on my own for fun all the time. And so again, frowned upon in comedy, but you have access with your ability. you've earned the right. No, it's true. And I like didn't do a lot of that because I thought that it was cheating. Sure. But then I was like, why is it cheating if the, if the, if the, if I've

listened to Weird Al so much and he's brought me so much joy and the version of American Pie that I know is his version and not Don McLean's version. And it's like weird Al's version about Star Wars. So I, I feel like I feel like I'm good at social media because I genuinely enjoy it. And I think it's really fun for me. It doesn't feel like, oh, I'm dragging my heels because I have to post about my show. I really like engaging with my audience. And fortunately, it's awesome that people come to shows because of it. And nothing matters more to me than like performing live and meeting the people

afterwards and hearing their stories about their moms or whatever and figuring out how they discovered me. It's the in-person feeling that I really, that I really cherish because of social media. It's in that Union Pool show, which I, can we, I'll give that a big shout. Listen, I just absolutely loved it. And what's interesting to me, it's, it's like, I don't know how I found it. It's, I don't know if it's particularly promoted or highlighted on your, on your YouTube channel. It may be, I don't know.

But it feels like. So that's why I'm, that's why I'm extra impressed. I just really want to direct people to it because it's so interesting to see someone. when did you record that? A year ago. A year ago. So since you've started doing stand-up, it was like a couple of points you say to the audience,

oh, I hope you weren't here for comedy. Because clearly part of the audience are people who've known you for a long time. And part of the audience are people who've discovered you from the socials, you're shouting it out on your socials, they come and see it. And it's sort of, like, it's completely satisfying to someone who is a fan of your comedy

to also see that you do this other thing and that you can do kind of inter-song chat that's funny and lively and authentic and sort of fun to watch. But I didn't, like, part of me was thinking like, oh, from research purposes, really I should be looking at Charlene's comedy. But then I got one song in.

I was like, I'm going to absolutely listen to every single beat of this because it's just so good. So enough with me kind of gushing about it. You're very welcome. It's brilliant. But talk to me about, what it's like being inside that going, oh, who is this fan base? Who is this audience on any given night? I wondered whether you were sort of thinking, oh, this is good. The comedy videos

have made people show up to this kind of stuff. I'm going to take a risk and do some of the hits. Do you know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting now because I have become so much more established as a comedian than I ever was as a musician. And I feel like it's every single day I'm thinking about my identity as an artist and how I can be both of those things because my soul is, I feel like my first love is music. And I have a new record that I've made that I am going to shoot a music video for this weekend. And I feel more authentic and unique as a musician than I ever have. I feel like there have been so many times in my teens and 20s where I was mimicking other people. and unsure about what my voice was and reading reviews too that said exactly that.

And because of how long I've been doing it and my tastes have expanded and my ability is expanded, I'm really proud of this record. And at the same time, I've become much more well-known generally because of Tiger Daughter and because of my viral material and stuff. And I'm so grateful that now I have a platform to perform. How are these people? going to react to my earnest music. I think they'll like it because it's still me. It still has my sensibilities. It still has my sense of humor, even though it is more earnest music. The new band is

called King May May. And it's, I created a new band because I used to go as Charlene Kay. And Charlene Kay is now associated with my comedy. And so I wanted to create a very distinct container that nodded to my Chinese heritage, that nodded to my love of drag and my queer identity. And so I'm going to unroll that later this year. And it'll be really interesting to see who shows up. And I will be grateful for anybody that comes along on that journey too. And being at Union Pool, I know that a lot of people have been with me from those days. And I'm so, I'm floored when I meet people at my comedy shows who were like, I've been following you since 2009 when you released your first album. And it's just so cool to see.

see the twists and turns your career has taken. That's delightful. It is really sweet. And I want to be an example for people that being an artist is a lifelong endeavor. And you can change your mind and go into different mediums at any time. And it doesn't mean that you're abandoning one thing. You can always come back to that if you're called to. And I've always been curious about different art forms,

which is why I took that acting class and it led me to comedy. So I think it's all holistic. and if you are a curious person, if you're someone that likes making things, then you just never know what adventures it will take you on. So I'm really grateful for that. And I'm grateful that everyone that I've met at my shows have also been really kind and curious people. And it keeps me in this. In terms of the industry, as someone who has been through one creative industry

in all of the kind of trials and tribulations of trying to make it and, you know, make it as a recording artist, What do you find, do you feel kind of forearmed when approaching the comedy industry? Do you feel like, oh, I know what a promoter is? Do you mean? Like, oh, I know, I recognize this. Oh, this is a gatekeeper. I know about them.

Do you, you know, do you bring with you a lot of, a lot of preconceptions or strategies, say? Yeah, they're the same types of people. And they're the same gatekeepers. There's the same, like, kind of structures that I recognize from music and, like, the promoters and such. I think, like, the sense of community is the same, though. There's something about being a bunch of musicians on tour that feel like you're all kind of surviving together. And it just immediately, like, bans you closer because you're going through this insane experience together of waking up at 6 a.m., driving 10 hours to the next city. and then loading in, performing, going to bed, doing it all over again.

And I haven't toured in the same way with other comics. If anything, there's something about performing alone in a lot of these cities that is, I think it's a different, especially because of where I am right now in my life. Like I need my creature comforts. I need to have my own hotel room. and I feel very, I feel very tender about the musician aspect of me that slept in a twin bed with my bandmates

because we didn't have any money and that, that was, that was just the lay of the land. But yeah, I think with comedy, I do feel a really strong camaraderie with the folks in my scene and the friends that I've made and the way that, especially with the musical comedians here, like there aren't that very many of us and so we naturally kind of find each other and we do

shows together and it feels like we kind of speak the same language but but yeah I think there's there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of camaraderie in different ways that's that's a great answer you are primarily focusing on the other comics rather than the gatekeepers part of it do you think that I wonder if like, I suppose, like from the outside, and I don't know if this is simply because of your viral success or just because you're American and people in America do things in a slightly more procedural or kind of, I don't know, maybe a more driven way, maybe the stakes are higher in the States. But I really feel like you're, it feels like a really effective machine, looking at your socials, YouTube, everything else. It's like, here's the content, here's the delivery, bang, bang, bang. I suppose I'm just kind of wondering whether an element of that is like, oh, if I'm doing comedy later in my life, later in my career, I'm armed with all of this stuff. I know what to expect. I'm just going to go full tilt.

Ooh, maybe this is naivete, but I have had a great experience with my management. And I wonder if it's because I have experience being in music. and being in that industry that I was able to discern that my manager was a really good person and I didn't have to waste time with people that didn't understand me or were trying to take advantage of me.

And I have met those types, but I had some shitty managers back in the day. Like real, like, real, like, real, like, Yahoo's that didn't know what they were doing and didn't have my best interests at heart that I had to fire or fired me or just wasn't a good fit. And there's something, I do feel like comedy and the way that I've been approaching my career has, it's been kind of effortless, which feels new. There's so much struggle in music.

There's so much struggle to like, mine for material to write about and like there is a time I think I was much more tortured as a full-time musician and there was that's interesting because there's a lot of struggling comedy and there's a lot of torture in comedy but I guess you are arriving in it fully formed and you mentioned Tim Minchin before and I think there is something and you have something in common with Minchin with his you know with just you know the the mixture of the two skill sets and I think it's interesting that you're um uh oh what was i going to say that it's yeah yours oh so what happened with tim minchin is that he was kind of fully formed as a kind of you know a creator of uh shows and then

set foot in comedy and i think i spoke to him about this at the time i think he was on the podcast years ago he sort of affected a kind of a oh i don't really i'm just kind of a guy out of nowhere and it was like you have done this very shrewdly because actually you know exactly what's going on here but you know that it benefits you to appear out of nowhere as if you've just picked up a mic kind of thing. So I think... Yeah. Yeah, that's not anything I'm suggesting you've done.

But I think it's interesting that there are parallels there. If you are already an opera singer or whatever, you know, an incredible harp player and you step into comedy, you're like, you only need... I mean, you said five jokes. You may not need an hour of killer jokes to be able to go, this is absolutely worth putting on any lineup because it's going to be so refreshing. Absolutely.

No, I think that's very astute about Tim. I think there are people, okay, let me tell you about some gatekeepers. I'm not going to name any names, but there's one comic that I consistently am on lineup shows with. And he doesn't, I don't know if he thinks that we are in a feud, but in my mind we are like mortal enemies. Just because when I see him, he treats me. like he couldn't give a shit if I live or die. And I know enough about him and his comedy to know that he's been grinding at this for his entire life and we're still on the same lineup shows.

And I know that there's something about my rapid assent that just gets him in that soft spot, you know? Okay. So I understand that it feels like comedy has come really easy to me. And there is something very natural about it that I feel, I do kind of feel like I've like stumbled upon it. But I'm not, I'm not young. I'm 40. Yeah, for sure. And we're talking thousands of hours of stage time as well. Yeah. Exactly. And so it didn't come from nowhere. I don't think I would be anywhere near as successful as I am if I didn't have that long, long career in music. And I've

always felt funny. And I've always enjoyed making people laugh. And it just so happens that I'm marrying all of my skill sets together in a way that works. But, you know, I didn't just, I didn't just start performing and I'm seeing all this viral success. The reason that my videos go viral is because I'm, I understand how to entertain people. And I can edit videos myself because I edited my music videos for years. And the, the sound is good because I produce my own music and I've learned how to audio engineer and I can play instruments and stuff. And that wasn't overnight. So it's not like, I don't know. I just don't think that there, we are in any way in the same league. And I have so much respect for his craft. And I think that we can all succeed. There's no, maybe that's the beauty of making it as you get older too. Like you realize that it's not like a finite pool. You can, everybody can have their own fan base and have their own thing. And I'm like, what I'm doing is not taking away from what you're doing. But it's easy to think that. You described it as a rapid ascent.

I think as someone, as long as you understand, which you do, that it is a fairly rapid ascent, that's all anyone else can ask for. I mean, like you said, you know, you've put all of that work in. It's only a rapid ascent at the point at which someone is seeing it. That's the, at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah. And I can understand how somebody would be jealous of that. But it's, but again, it's like, yeah, it's apples and oranges, I think, at the end of the day.

So do you edit all of your social media stuff yourself? Do you edit all your videos yourself? Great job, mate. That's a really professional editing. Thank you so much. You really get it. You're really doing, I think there's a thing I read an article about, I think Mr. Beasts former editor talking about retention loops, talking about the way that you just constantly

pop, you poke the viewer, you change, do a thing like this in order that it's impossible for anyone to scroll away. Because, you know, that's why if someone's showing a like a. they've got the frame there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's all the footage they've got. Suddenly they'll pop in a few millimeters of the frame. And then pop out again.

It's a retention loop. It's like a pink, pink. So you keep tapping someone on the eyeballs. But I feel like if that's news to you, then I feel like you've independently discovered that. Because you do that. That's fascinating. Yeah.

I'm going to look at that actually because that's really interesting. I think I don't have an intuitive sense. We'll cut that bit out. We'll cut that bit out and you can look at it. Yeah. Yeah, I do have an intuitive sense of what I find interesting and just like any art that you're trying to learn. And I think video editing is its own medium too.

If I see something I like, then I'm like, oh, I'm going to try that in my own thing. Like what makes a good caption hook? And I'm going to try out a bunch of different kinds of caption hooks. And like it's kind of trial and error and like knowing that there's always going to be another opportunity. Like the internet moves so fast. And so it's kind of just like experimenting and seeing what works. And, you know, there are plenty of videos that I make that totally bomb.

As well as the stage time and the experience of editing your own videos. You also have now years of knowledge that, I suppose what you have that's different maybe to whoever this, you know, comic archetype is, as well as the person you're describing, that's certainly an archetype. something that a lot of comics can feel, and I've certainly felt this myself, is like, what? I've got to do this on top of writing jokes. Like, I now have to be a producer or an editor and all of these things. Whereas if you're coming to it with the ability already and the skills,

you've already made those decisions as a musician, oh, it's just me. I've got to be a producer and an editor and a sound, you know, I was going to say graphic equalization. I was reaching for a sound term. Sound engineering, sound engineering. Graphic EQ is a thing. So good job.

Yeah, probably not in the way I'm imagining it. Four sliders on the side of a cassette. No, that's it. You're killing it. But my point is you are, you're ready for that. Not only do you have the skill set, you have an innate understanding that this is, it's me versus the world. And I've got to use all these tools. And I'm not moaning about it. You're right. I'm very technologically adept. And I think that is a gift in today's age of being an artist that has to be on social media. it just so happens that I really enjoy it. I really like editing videos, and I like color grading, and I like mixing. And it is the same for music. There are so many musicians I know who just want to make the record and just like, fuck off.

And some of my favorite musicians are not on social media at all, or they have shit social media. And I'm like, let me do your social media. You're amazing. There's this artist, I'm going to shout about, there's this artist named Fiona Regan. he's Irish and he is like the most ethereal, delicate, sensitive balladeer. He's a folk artist. I'm probably his top listener on Spotify. I listen to him constantly.

And he just like, he uses social media like an old man. And he like, he'll post a picture of like his shoe or something. I'm like, my dude, no one knows what a genius you are. Like let me set up some nice cameras and audio equipment and get a better reflection of who you are for people that don't know your music. But I also understand that like it has a negative effect on people and it's you got to respect that. Too much time on social media makes me feel nauseous. And so fortunately, I'm able to like make my shit post it and I can tell when my body's starting to feel like I've been looking at my screen for too long. So I'll put it down and I'll do something else.

But yeah, I am grateful that I have that whole skill set from being a musician and it is fun for me. So I think that's why it's sustainable. Yes. Before we wrap up, there's two more questions I want to ask you. One is about the song Try Hard Turd, which I think has got, it's a lovely song. It's got a great story behind it. And I think it is appropriate to the interests of this podcast. So please can you tell us about that song?

Okay, wait. Was that a song or was that just like a riff that I played? I think it was a song, which was you were talking about touring. Yeah, yeah, you were talking about touring. about touring with Courtney Barnett and the notion of reappropriating. Yes. You're right. It wasn't so much a song as you talking about.

I should write a song about it though. Yeah. Would you like me to tell the story for your listeners? It's on the track listing of that YouTube show. So I've confused it for a song. But you're absolutely right. It's a story and it's a story about you tapping the, you know, with your band members back. Yes.

Oh, my God. Okay. Well, I couldn't be more moved that you loved that set because, Nobody ever mentions that set. And it just goes to show that you're a deep appreciator of art. So, okay, when I was in a band called Sin Furmeen for many years. And we were an eight-piece indie rock, baroque pop chamber pop outfit, sort of like arcade fire. And our lead songwriter played piano, but also had a single floor tom, which was so indie rock, early 2000s of us.

or 2010s, should I say. And we toured with Courtney Barnett, who was like ascending at the time as an as a star of indie rock. For some reason, we did a co-headlining tour where her band and our band played equal sets every single night and we traded off who was the actual headliner. And our fan bases were not compatible at all. And in fact, we would play. our fan base would leave before her. She would play her fan base would leave before us. And I was like, I don't know who thought of this was a good idea.

But anyway, we would check Twitter every night after the show. Now everyone checks Instagram. But this was like before Instagram was really the main social media platform. So we would check the tweets to see what people thought of our show. And one night, after the show, someone had tweeted at Sanframine Band, what a bunch of try hard turds, which was so funny because that's exactly what we were. We were playing in crazy time signatures and they're like classical violin solos. And we are all trying so hard, which as an Asian woman who studied classical piano is

my entire personality. And so we were like, so what we did from then on, there's a song called Parasite, where there are three drum hits. And it goes, do-t-da-da-da-da-to-tut. And every single night, we would go, but-da-ba-ba-tri-hard-turn. And we would also, we would all whisper, try-hardturt to each other and look each other in the eyes and say it. And so it was just a way of reclaiming try-hardtri-hardturd for ourselves. And as somebody who works incredibly hard and likes work and pays a lot of detailed attention to everything, I'm a proud try-hardturn. And I will own that because, and I think that I could be messier.

I think that I could make more dick jokes. Yeah. But, you know, that's where I'm at in life. And I'm, I, I think that there's an aspect of try-hurture that I am really proud of. I love it. Thank you so much. You're coming to the Soho Theatre, I believe. I am.

Yeah. In London, the real, actual Soho in London. When are you there? Do you know offhand? I feel like you're there in April. Yes. I'm playing my new show, Diversity Shredder, April 8th and 9th. Ninth at Soho, Underbelly Boulevard.

Underbelly Boulevard, Soho. Oh, yeah, cool. Gotcha. I know exactly where that is. Excellent. And you're going to be at Netflix as a joke on May 8th, where I hope I will see you there. Absolutely. Do you have plans to return to the fringe?

How was your Edinburgh fringe? Can you sum it up in a sentence? We're winding up here and it's a big topic. But how did that go for you? Was it what you expected? It was not what I expected at all. I did it in 2024 with Tiger Daughter. And I had a blast.

I met so many of my dear British comic friends that I referenced in our email. Yeah, yeah. But I am going to be there this year. I'm doing Diversity Shredder this year. Are you going to be there? Excellent. I'm always there. Yay! Are you doing your new show?

I am. Yes. I'm going to be doing my show. I haven't officially released the name of it yet, but I am going to be there in the final two weeks. Amazing. I can't wait to see it. Yes. Yeah, me too. We too. I can't wait to see it. Yay. And I can't wait to see yours. That's great. I'm not going to, I won't make it. I'll make it a Soho, but I will be very excited to see your show.

There is one last question, which is this. Are you happy? I am. I think at this phase in my life, I don't take it for granted at all. And I think that the place that I'm at, which is very creative, and I'm finally, like, I feel like finally abundant in every area of my life. I'm in a really happy relationship. My creativity is thriving. I have a beautiful home. I have a hairless sphinx cat named Albus Dumbledore. I have a brand new nephew. My sister just gave birth the other day. And so I feel like it's a real.

Thank you. I feel like it's a time of a lot of possibility and renewal. And it no longer feels very, very heavy. And I'm glad that I've put in the work to do that. I've made a lot of art about it. And I want to just, I want to chill and enjoy it and travel and continue to make stuff. Will you be insisting that your nephew learn musical instruments

despite his protestations? Yeah, I'll be Tiger anteing tenacious D instead of classical piano. I'll be like, let's learn kickapoo right now. Be my tiny KG. That was Charlene K. Diversity Shreder is at the London Underbelly on Wednesday, the 8th and 3.

Thursday, the 9th of April. Find out more at k-official.com and follow her on Instagram at Charlene K. Get all your extras. Get your extras. All your extras in this case are about how ego shows up differently in music compared to how it shows up in comedy. Fascinating bit of the conversation. We'll find out about when your safety net becomes part of the act and we'll discuss turning real-life tension into art. All good gear. Patreon.com slash com pod for all the extras. find out how to see me live at Stuartgoldsmith.com slash comedy. And here are some thank you. Thanks to Charlene for coming on the show.

Thank you to evil producer Callum for his great works. Thanks to Golden Loeb nominated behind the scenes hero, Susie Lewis. Well done. Let's hope. Listen, I think it's a public vote. I haven't looked into it and I should have by this stage. I think you should go and find out about the Golden Lobes, which are a podcast awards run. I think by cheerful earful, that puns are flying thick and fast.

But ordinarily, because awards tend to focus on public votes, any award I think that focuses on a public vote, it sort of effectively becomes a how good's your mailing list and how good your self-promotion type thing. So it slightly falls without the boundaries of what this podcast officially considers wonderful. But it is nonetheless wonderful that Susie Lewis, who has been tirelessly working hard on your behalf and gets barely a glimmer of a mention and occasionally referred to as a sort of a goblin or something in passing,

not conversationally, but, you know, an elf, that was it. Oh, it's the QI elves. I think a while ago I wanted to come up with some sort of moniker for her that was like the QI elves, and I think I'd stumbled over the Com Coblin, and that is absolutely not the case. But nonetheless, I will swerve my usual rule about begging, prostrating myself for public votes because this is for Susie and it would mean the world to me and I'm sure she'd like it as well if she were to win the Golden Lobes, not least because she would then technically become more award winning than the Comedians Comedian podcast itself and come on,

wouldn't that be a laugh? So let's find out and we'll put in the show notes where you can vote for her and so please do that. I'm sure you can Google it up in a few seconds. Thank you to our insider producers, Hacker Spiller, Dave Powell, Simmons, Alan Lucas, McClellan, Swarbrick, McCarroll, Swaddle, Wormel and Burry and a big thank you to our two special insider executive producers Neil Radiohead Peters and Andrew Mellon Head Dennant

and to the super secret one and to the mysterious Dr. Blanks. So that's all from this episode and let's find out what I'm going to do next. I just started a sentence there without knowing how to let's find out what I'm going to do next. You could probably

start. You know when you start a sentence, this is turning into the post dabbled. So goodbye and I'll chat to you in a second. Here we are again. You know when you don't know what you're going to say next? Does anyone do this? You start a sentence because you've panicked and you've blanked and you just start talking. Oh God, is this one of those things I find out is classic ADHD. It's another element of my personality that turns out just to be a coping strategy. But let's assume we all do that. That was an example of that happening. so tired. I'm so tired. Look, I'm just back from Paris. Oh, la la. The clocks changed. Um,

what do they do? They went forwards. And then the next day I went to Paris where they went forwards again. And then this morning, I, they've gone back. And I had meds in Paris. And they wore off early retrospectively. And then I went for a nap. And I don't think I even napped. And then suddenly it was an hour later. So I clearly napped. But I think I just sort of lay there and I tried to think nothing. And actually, I think that worked. Let's briefly dive. convert for this postamble into how to fall asleep because a few... Big shout out to Joe Perra, the podcaster and comedian with the most soporific, relaxing voice. So if you're using Comcom to fall asleep, wake up, you idiot.

Instead, you should be listening to Joe Perra talks you to sleep, which I think is like a 12-hour YouTube video where he just talks soporifically and you fall asleep. It's brilliant. I've never tried it for that purpose, but I think it's... I fall asleep quite easily, sorry. and so I think it would be dangerous if I were to listen to Joe Perra at length. I think I'd fall into some sort of ultra-sleep beyond the sleep realm. Can you tell I've been watching a lot of adventure time? So I have been, I normally, I'll tell you what I, I'll tell you what the advice I've been given,

and then I'll tell you what I normally do, and then I'll tell you what I just did. So the advice I've seen floating around on social media is this eye movement thing, whereby you're supposed to lie in bed, relax your body. close and a lot of you now will be thinking that's the whole problem you're supposed to close your eyes and then with your eyes closed count backwards from 100 whilst looking left right up and down

behind your eyes moving your what are they retinas I suppose pupils which bit do you actively move eyeballs moving them such that you would be if your eyes were open looking up down left and right you slowly do that whilst counting backwards from 100 and apparently it's brilliant and I have tried it once or twice and I don't remember ever getting past 60 downwards.

So that's one of them. The thing I've been doing for years and I think this always works is I just imagine jumping backwards off a building really slowly in a sort of filmic Christopher Nolan kind of way. And that seems to do all right for me. But what I did just now was I literally thought to myself, I'll just try thinking of nothing. And what did Carl tell me earlier today?

He said there was a, oh, I'm very sleepy. I can barely remember excellent anecdote, though it was. My friend Carl said that Seinfeld, who I believe is well known to practice transcendental meditation or TM, he meditates. Oh, that was the point of that. I think it was actually, I don't know if this was actually a joke joke or a genuine thing Carl overheard. Forgive me in either case if I'm ripping off a joke joke or just stealing someone else's good anecdote. Sorry, mate. But the thing is he apparently, Seinfeld apparently meditates

twice a day for 20 minutes and if he needs it a third time and a friend of a friend or some characters in a joke were discussing this and one said Oh, transcendental meditation. Yes, that's the one with the bell and the handkerchief

and the other person thought he meant Morris dancing. It can't be a joke, can it? It doesn't have the requisite parts for that to be a successful pub joke washed up on the shores of human consciousness as a perfect little pebble. It just doesn't have the bits, but the basic premise is fun. I've gone loopy. I've got more of these to do because it's Easter coming up. I've just been at this two or three day event in Paris, which was wonderful. So hello to anyone I met there who is now listening. And you really should check out Charlene's stuff. And I also,

since we spoke, I think when I mentioned, when I first had on the show, I mentioned that I had listen to a bit of, you've got, so the key thing is, you've got to find that thing on Charlene's YouTube page, which is her, the thing I referred to, it's like a 45-minute gig or a 50-minute gig, and it's her sort of apologising the audience for having tricked them into coming to see a serious show. Bits of it are funny, the banter in between songs, I hate the word banter, sorry, the interstitial comedy, the humour between songs is excellent, but the songs are brilliant, and then also, and I'd only heard it once when I spoke to her, her album, I will need in the past, which came out in 2008 and is very much not a kind of lady-ahead type

rabble-rousing thing. It's really soft and gentle and beautiful, and I think you should listen to that as well. Big fan over here. Goodbye for now. I'm going to go and, uh, I'm come, what am I going to do? I'm going to, what, what am I going to do? Oh, we've got a re-release next week. That'll be dead good. And then we've got Jono. We've got Duran Johno Johnson, aka these days the head writer of SNL. But don't get your hopes up. This is recorded before it went out and he's not allowed to talk about it, but it is nonetheless an excellent episode with a fascinating and brilliant and funny person. Have I just done the opposite of promo? No, I haven't, because it is out with the values of this podcast to tease a thing and then bait and switch you.

We don't talk about SNL. We did a little bit, but we've taken it all out. So the dregs, the dregs of my conversation with Jono in two weeks time, and I'm going to record the blurbs for that now. But let's face it, it's probably only three of you listen at this point, So we'll keep the dregs thing between us. It's a brilliant interview. You get my point. Now I'm worried it'll get back to him and he'll think I'm slagging off the episode. Wouldn't it be good if you just didn't care about anything?

Wouldn't it be good? I mean, no, it'd be monstrous. It would be monstrous. It wouldn't be good. Okay, good. All right, bye for now. Try to maintain a consistent sense of self. Because I can't.