The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - Daran Jonno Johnson

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Most people in the comedy world will know Jonno Johnson as a third of the sketch trio Sheeps, but most recently he’s taken up the role of Head Writer at SNL UK! In this episode recorded in January 2026, we discuss:the hidden world of sketch writing and script editingwhy he wanted to be the Chuckle Brothershow he manages on-stage anxiety in real timeJonno’s musical talents from writing pantomimes to freestyle rapsthe Sheeps approach of building a sketch with structure, misdirection and building towards something bigger than it seemsthe hidden fear of a show's attendance over the performancethe turning point of getting out of your own wayand Jonno's advice for aspiring comedy writersJoin the Insiders Club at Patreon.com/ComComPod where you can instantly WATCH the full episode and get access to 15 minutes of exclusive extras including:the audition that made him swear off auditions entirelywhy there’s no real “community” in sketch comedy anymoreand how admiration within your own circle can shape what you make👉 Sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok.Catch Up with Jonno: Jonno: Here Comes Mr Funny is at the Edinburgh Fringe this summer at the Monkey Barrel 2. You can also follow Jonno on Instagram, @thisisjonno.Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod:✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ 15 minutes of exclusive extra content with Jonno✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including weekly(ish) Stu&AsPLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE including dates in Bristol, Marlborough, LA and Mach! Find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy. Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.Get in touch: If you’re listening and thinking ‘I’d love to work with ComComPod on getting something out there’ or ‘there’s someone you should absolutely have on’ - drop us an email at [e-mail]! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the show. Stuart Goldsmith here and this is my last little recording before I go for an actual holiday with my actual family and do actually, well I was going to say very little but probably, I don't know, maybe a bit of canoeing. We're going to the Y Valley. So if you're there, nod respectfully from a distance. Now we have got this final episode. I've gone a bit demob happy because I'm just wrapping things up. Most people in the comedy world will know John O Johnson, which is not his real name, it turns out, as a third of the sketch trio Sheeps. But more recently, he has taken up the role of head writer at SNL UK. Recorded back in January before the show had started writing and recording. In this first half, we discuss the hidden world of sketch writing and script editing. We'll find out why he wanted to be the Chuckle Brothers. We'll talk to him in some detail about how he manages on-stage anxiety and anxiety in a wider context in real time. and we will find out all about Jono's impressive musical talents from writing pantomimes to freestyle raps.

And I can't stress enough. You'll hear me absolutely bang on about this during the episode. But I was so, so blown away by his show at Edinburgh last year. And I cannot believe how early it is in the life of that show. Admittedly, some of the bits have more maturity. But as a show, it was so coherent. And so he's clearly just an exceptional writer. and I'm so thrilled for him and the rest of those crazy kids at SNL UK

because that all seems to be coming along famously. So do make a huge effort to see him wherever you can. I don't imagine he's doing Mac because most people who were doing Mac who are also in SNL have been, they had to sadly pull back from their Mac shows because their shows already been extended. So I don't know if he'll be there, but I hope he will be at Edinburgh. But in many ways, loving him as I do, I also hope that he won't necessarily unless he desperately wants to be

because I think that Jono is someone who I'm sure after listening to this episode you will want as much as I will want him to do what he wants to do and be happy and satisfied and really bask in his wonderful talent and work ethic. There we go. I think I managed to say that without being patronising. I just love him to bits and I'm thrilled to bring this one to you. And three pounds a month, of course, is your Patreon donation. If you'd like to go to Comcompod, no, if you'd like to go to patreon.com.com slash

Comcom pod and support us, you get ad-free access to the full video and audio. Yes, this is on video as well, but only if you're in the gang. We've got extra content with Jono, more details on that soon. A new format, stew and A every week and a lovely warm, buzzy feeling. As if you're going to go out on a big night out in 2007, and you haven't told your parents what time you're going to be back. So all of that good stuff. for you with a three-month-or-more donation for this independently produced podcast. Here is Jono.

Johno, I only recently learnt your real name, because I've known you as John-O for about 14 years. Your real name's Darren. My name's Duran. Duran? You learnt my new name just now. Just as I corrected you. That's got to be a record. Your name's Duran. Where is the name Duran from?

I, well, it's actually, I mean, this is ridiculous on my part. It probably is Darren. I mean, my grandparents, I think, thought that was how you spell Darren, D-A-R-A-N, which it isn't. And then my dad's called that, and then he named me after himself. And then I looked it up and saw that D-A-R-A-N is a different name, which is pronounced Duran. So I was like, well, I'm going to pronounce it the way that it's meant to be pronounced, even though it's spelled the same as my dad. So that is like, you know, I've gone straight in with something incredibly wanky.

It's also, I think it's just like, because nobody has that name, because it's a sort of made-up name, it at least sounds interesting. But then I bailed on it so quickly because people have called me Johnner since I was nine. So no one's called me anything else. Okay. That's fun. So it's really fun to kind of go, like I feel like you've, you sound like quite an Australian person. If your name is Duran

Johnson, but you're known as Duran John O Johnson. Like you've got to, I noticed that we won't talk about SNL or we can talk about why we won't talk about SNL, but I noticed very recently on the very first press blurb for it, it had the three names of the three directors or it's a director of the production team of the show

and it was name, name and Duran John O'Johnson. And it just seems quite Australian, like an Australian DJ, like a talk radio guy. And also like the the sketch double act John O and Ben Australia's double-act

which is me and Ben Ashton from the PIN it's a sort of supergroup but whenever we're in Australia we go by John O and Ben whenever the two hours are hanging out yeah because the other members of the PIN and

sheep can't fly so me and Ben Ashton go and do John O'No and Ben over there none of that's true none of that's true none of that's true this is a problem with my whole personality It's unclear when I'm telling the truth.

Okay, okay. Good. Well, I'll take everything. Let me say in advance later because one of my anxieties is that I will either fall for something that's obviously a lie or, worse, take something, not take something seriously, think that something's a joke and then it turns out to be heartbreakingly true. Right, sure.

As in you just start laughing at something horrendous. Yeah. Yeah, that's an anxiety of mind. Now, let's start. We'll talk a lot about. sheep's, I'm sure, and we'll talk about why we can't talk about S&L and all those exciting things. So a little flag for starfuckers who are only listening to this to find out all the juicy gossip about S&L. There isn't going to be any. You're here because I, you're primarily here,

because I saw your show in Edinburgh, and it completely blew me away. And there were several bits when I cried laughing. Not least your freestyle rap, which I don't want to spoil, depending on whether or not you're going to do more of it in future. But I watched it again. you kindly sent me a recording of the show. And again, on a train yesterday, I cried laughing watching the freestyle rap bit. Thank you. And I just thought it was amazing.

And not only, it was sort of, it was kind of a kind of, what's the word, a confluence of lots of my favourite things. I love songs, really well-written musical comedy, because you know what you're doing with musical comedy. It's not just a song with some funny words. It's like a brilliant song, well-played, well-sung with really, like the kind of comedy I like, really, I think, really intelligent, surprising comedy, comedy that comedians would like, because the rug pulls are very unexpected

and absurd and things like that. So all of that stuff. Oh, mate, well, you know how much I loved it. And also loads of stuff about how flawed you are as a human being. And all of the, all of your avoidant behaviour anxieties, I was just sat there going, oh, I just love everything about this. I feel like I'm seeing the real person in between all of these amazing clever clogs, funny things that are sort of tickling my brain. Oh, it's nice to know there's a payoff to the last 38 years. Yeah. Well, it's modest, but here it is. It's me gushing at you.

I've got something out of it. Yeah. I also then realized, I think, I thought you were up there for the whole month, but you weren't. How many shows did you do? Three. You saw my, which night did you come on? You came, I think you came in the middle one, I think. Maybe, I wouldn't know.

I don't know. So you will have seen the third time I'd done it. Like, the third time I'd done a show. I've done it, I've done it now. And then the one I sent you was the fifth time. I've done it. So I've done five times now. So I'm going, because I'm doing Edinburgh next year,

but I don't have, I've sort of ran out of time already this year. And last year, I only decided I was going to start doing stand-up, like I can't I decided on on the 1st of January last year I was like no I'm just going to book in a show in Mahuncloth

and then I'll have to do one and so I texted my friend Alex Carthley who runs Country Mile productions and along with Catherine Craig Mile and I text I was just making sure everybody's credits are appropriate

Yes I get really nice off about that thank you well done also they're very good friends of mine and I am and I don't shout out. They're good guys. So I sent them a message on the 1st of January being like I would, I want to, I think I'm going to do a show come we just put one in in Mac and I'll have to write one. And then I did it in Mac and I was like, oh, that was really fun.

I'd like to do Edinburgh and it was too late, really to suddenly do an Edinburgh show. But we managed to get, we booked in three nights and it was, I loved it. I could have quite happily done the month. I was really enjoying it. it's so fun. It's a really fun thing to do. So does that mean if you're thinking of doing Edinburgh again next time that that's the show? So you can regard this one as the whip, the work in progress for that show? Or are you the sort of person who'll go, no, no, that's done now.

I'll write an entire, you know, very late in the day, write another, a whole other show. I wish I, it would be so much cooler if I said, I was just going to go again on a new hour, but I'm not, it's going to be like, it's, it's like, I'm going to just like refine that. Great. Good. Good. Good. That gives a newer, fresher purpose to this interview then, because I desperately want everyone to go and see that show or whatever that show becomes because I loved it so much.

Thank you. I'd like them to come as well. I haven't seen much of your work. I've seen loads of sheep's. I've seen several sheep's shows over the years. And then you talk in the show. And this means, I suppose, if we're doing it next year or substantial parties, of it next year we shouldn't give away some of the stuff we've got to be that's all right yeah that that might be the only bit that i afterwards am like maybe leave that out but yeah sure it'll just be it'll just be like if it's a bit from the show yeah sure okay so with the freestyle rap for example we haven't given anything away there there is a bit which is a freestyle rap bit yeah well the bit is yeah the bit is that i just do a really good freestyle rap because i've got i've just got those

You just got those skills. It's one of those things where there isn't a shortcut to that. You just have to have the raw ability. So I just get up there and it's different every night. I will just go with what's in the room. And that is just raw. I'm sort of, it's almost lazy because I'm just relying on raw talent. You're just relying on the skill set.

Yeah. I'm just leaning on that skill set. That's why, I think that's why it's always so good. Okay, good. But no more of that now, Jono. No more of I enjoyed that's a lot, but no more of that. Okay. I'm being cheeky.

So, I don't know. I think what I was trying to say was, I don't really know what you've been up to. I see you in this sort of sheep's shows. And I remember I've been watching some sheep's clips on YouTube from like 11 and 12 years ago. They stand up. They're so, so good. Sheeps was and is fantastic. About half an hour ago, I discovered the Christmas album that you talked about that I've seen on social media.

is a real thing. Because I never know what to trust. You know, my sheep's have done like a last, this is our breakup show several times now. Yeah. And so there is this kind of, like I didn't know what you've been up to in the meantime.

Because when I saw your show, there's a lot of things in it which you say, which I hope are definitely true. And there's some things which are obviously a kind of a comic conceit. You mentioned about writing musicals or like writing musical theatre or I'm not quite sure how you...

Well, I wrote a musical, I wrote a pantomime a few years ago and I've just written another musical, which I'm hoping to do, which I think is the best thing I've ever written. I'm really excited for. But yeah, I do, I write, and then the album as well.

I do bits of music. And I occasionally write music for people's Edinburgh shows as well. I wrote the music for Lorna Rose Treen and Rory Marshall's shows in Edinburgh this last year. And I'm looking to do a bit, more of that. I really, really, really, really enjoy it. It's a nice little, it's a holiday from the writing. And then I found out that you also wrote year friends and are in year friends, which again, I hadn't, like, I didn't know about, and I've only just discovered it,

and I've watched five minutes of it, and again, absolutely in stitches. So, I suppose I'm trying to build up a picture of what you get up to the rest of the time, because most people, on most people that I interview, a lot of them are kind of like circuit comics or touring comics or what have you. And I think I'm always a bit nebulous when it comes to sketch because I'm like, okay,

you can't, there isn't a sketch circuit in the same way. So what do you spend your time doing? Are you constantly pitching things? Are you working other jobs whilst dipping back into doing sheep? And then all of a sudden you're directing SNL. And I'm like, okay, we've got to go right back to basics of like, what have you been doing

for the last 15 years outside of sheep? And then we'll get into the sheep stuff. So, like, if, it does tie into the SNL stuff, like, quite neatly. And that I, when we started doing sheep in 2010, and we would have, like, meetings with telly people afterwards, and they would all say more or less the same thing, which was they'd say something nice about the show. And then they'd be like, we don't really do that. that on TV anymore. And so, have any of you got sitcom scripts? And then I just started writing

lots of spec scripts because I was like, I would much prefer to have been doing sketches on TV, but I, like, as in not prefer to the live show, live is my favorite thing of anything, but as in prefer doing a sketch show on TV to doing sitcom stuff. But there was no, there was no route in. So I sort of like learn to write sitcom and then I wrote for a few shows. I wrote for a show called Siblings and then a show called Flat TV with Tom Rosenthal and Nazas Manilu. I wrote, the first thing I wrote for was, well, I wrote a bit for Anna and Katie's sketch show, but that was like one of the last sketch shows on TV for a lot of years.

I also wrote a show called The Midnight Beast. Yes, I know the Midnight Beast has been on the podcast many years ago, yes. Yeah, I love those guys. They did an interview where they said, an interviewer asked them whether somebody had written, like whether they write the show themselves

and they said in the interview, they went, yeah, they went, yeah, you'd be able to tell if somebody else wrote it. I was like, it lists, there's names in the credits. Like, it does, the end of the episode, it does say written by, like, anyway.

But, um, the, Yeah, that was a long time ago, though. I wrote a show called Parliament, which was on French and German TV. Ah, okay, okay. Wrote for a cartoon as well, and wrote for a show called Wedding Season on Disney Plus. So I've been mostly...

And then I also do a lot of work as, like, I did a lot of script editing work and a lot of sort of... I can't really see it. Like a sort of story consultant with a production company. of coming in and talking about, you know, how I'd change the order of stuff. That's basically it.

With that kind of work, I mean, that's how I can't, I don't know whether to me that would feel like a sort of dream gig where you're doing loads and loads of bits, you're consulting on stuff, you're getting to write, you've got work flying around, you're doing loads of stuff, or whether I would kind of panic about that because I'd be like, oh, it's like you're not in control of any of it. You're sort of on a, and is this, because I'm not. Like, I don't do spec scripts. I don't write stuff in that sort of the same way.

I just want to try and get inside what it's like. Like, I know when you're a comic, you've got the circuit. And if you're firing on all cylinders on the circuit, you can create your structure, make your own work and get paid. And with writers, I always feel like, how do you cope with firing stuff off that then doesn't get made? And then maybe you get a gig and maybe you don't. Like, what's that life like professionally? And how does that interface with you and your sense of yourself as a comic? person. You know, if you're a comic, you have a bad gig. We have a good gig the next night and you're

getting paid for both anyway. But what's it like when you're kind of sending stuff off and consulting and you don't know when the next bit's coming from? I've really, really, really, really struggled with it the whole time and I didn't realize quite how much it was wearing me down until fairly recently of like, because I always had, we would do sheep and that would be a sort of release. because it would be, well, this is the thing where it's just me and my two best friends, and if it makes us laugh, that's in. Because I was, for the most part, also doing the live sketch stuff, when the SNL thing came up, I was sort of uniquely placed to do it.

I was really lucky that they came to see sheep's in Edinburgh last year as well, and then I just submitted, like, everybody else, a sketch pack for it. but when it came to the head writer job, it was, well, I've been doing two things for the last two years, which is, for the last 15 years, which is a live sketch show and working in and sometimes, well, a few times now running writers' rooms, like for, I'll be it for sitcoms, but it's just like, so this is just like an opportunity to do both in the same show. So it's kind of a dream gig for me. That's incredible.

that's perfect. Before S&L came along, were you thinking how much longer can I keep doing this? You were saying that's when you were like, I'll get into stand-up. I'll start doing stand-up so I can have a bit more control of it myself. Yeah. I think it's really nice that deciding to do the stand-up thing has happened before. Like I've had a few nice things happen this year, some of which I can't talk about. But like they, I've had like a few really nice things that also may all amount to nothing and could be in the same situation again next year that that's happened more than once that something's looked like a look like a thing's going to take off and they're not but um i i think it's not but me deciding to do stand-up preceded all of any any of those

things happening and none of them have been a result of the stand-up either it's kind of coincidence which is nice because it means i've got that sort of The thing I'm enjoying doing the most, honestly, is doing the stand-up show, even though I'm not doing it very often. It's like, it's my absolute favorite thing to do. I feel very relaxed doing it. And it's, but I was like very, very much ready to stop. In 2000, well, I had like two occasions where as a TV writer I wanted to stop. And the only thing that stopped me was I couldn't figure out anything I wanted to do.

The only reason why I didn't stop writing TV was because I couldn't think of anything else I was qualified to get into. But I had a thing in 2017 going through to late 2018 of a show that was in development at Channel 4 for so long. It was like most of my income was they kept buying this same show and not making it. like and then this company in america wanted to buy it for like an amount of money that would have changed my life but channel four weren't releasing it like because they were like no we're going to

make it we're going to make it and i was like couldn't but i was like avoiding debt collectors and i was like please just release it so i can sell it to this company they won't make the show either they won't make the show either but at least i'll get like a big chunk of money and i was just like I was just totally and utterly broke and really scared a lot of the time. And then eventually, like, it finally came down to decision time at Channel 4 and the head of department left. And a new person came in and went, don't like this. And it was just killed. It was like two years.

And then I went to the company in America and they were like, oh, we've sort of bought something quite similar. In the meanwhile, I can't honestly say that if I went back 15 years, I would probably would advise myself to do. something else even though no well I would tell myself to do stand-up I would tell myself to do a stand-up show that's what it would do it's it's extraordinary that sounds like and I don't think I've ever said this before that sounds as a lifestyle even more alienating than being a stand-up comedian and I don't think I've ever said that sentence before because you don't have yeah I'm saying that exactly yeah I'm saying the life of a stand-up seems preferable to the right life of a TV writer in the UK.

Like, genuinely, it just seemed like at least, at least you can say the jokes. Yes. Yes. And at least you get, yeah, at least you can say the jokes. At least people hear the jokes and laugh. Yeah.

And you get kind of, I mean, this would be hard for anyone. This kind of lifestyle, I think this kind of career would be hard for anyone. But particularly for you, who we discover in your show, are particularly anxiety impacted. Is that that's fair to say?

You talk about kind of avoidance and kind of certain avoidance. And again, not to kind of give away central elements of the show, but I think it's sort of, it's fairly plain. And this is something I responded to a lot in the show. Because funnily enough, I have also had Vesa Vagler and Syncope episode. Oh, right. Yeah. I knew what those words meant.

Vasi Vigl when I was a teenager and syncope memorably a couple of years ago where I, you know, I basically passed out in the middle of the night. I've got smelling salts in my pocket at all times in case I have a fainting spot. Oh, wow. So to self-administer? Yeah, well, it just gives me, it's not like, oh, it's just a little shock to the system. It just gives me enough time. I haven't actually, well, thankfully, touch wood, I haven't had to do this in over a year.

But having the smelling salts is, I find it very comforting to have it in my pocket because it gives me, if I feel like I'm going, and I take a quick smell of the smelling salts, it gives me a few seconds to like get on the ground. So I don't fall on the ground and hit something. Anyway, but I'm in a much, much better place with all that stuff now, just from the anxiety meds. Do you think that the, was the incredibly,

Like, I mean, okay, so we're on sort of anxiety and therapy kind of, well, I'm about to introduce a note of therapy. I've been doing some EMDR recently, which is eye movement desensitization and reprogramming, right? So it's kind of like self-hypnosis. I've found it extraordinarily useful. Really? There are things I've been worried about in the back of my mind for literally 35 years that I put to bed in the last few months. I can't recommend it enough. That's for a separate chat.

But in having the conversation with the lady that I've been doing it with, I've been talking to her about work. I've been kind of analysing this car accident. I was in as a kid. I've been analysing my kind of school days. You build installations out of them. And then you try and use, in my nascent understanding of it, you do this kind of tapping or blinking or whatever you do it.

And you kind of consider the stuff and just see what comes up. I was sort of describing to some of my anxieties about some aspects of my life, my work as a stand-up. And she did say at one point, she was like, do you have to do this? I was like, oh no, don't get me wrong. I really enjoy it. Like, I really, really like it. And the issue that I have really is that I love it so much, but I'm doing illogical, unnecessary anxiety about something I love doing. Because the thing that makes me anxious, the idea of a gig going wrong me, I've got a particular worry about forgetting what comes next, as you've seen, about forgetting on stage what the next bit is, kind of drying, if you like, is lifelong worry, terrible memory.

Actually, if I can get away from the fear of those mistakes happening that I'm imagining, the actual work itself, I love it to bits I wouldn't change it for the world. Right. So I was mindful of that because as you were describing this awful kind of like, you know, money being withheld and things being in what we might more or less call development hell, not knowing where the money's come and not getting the chance to even say the funny stuff that you've written. Yeah.

Part of me couldn't help thinking, do you have to do it? Yeah. And I suppose the question is, what relationship has that had to your anxiety? Have you ended up in an anxiety, as I think she was intimating to me, she was suggesting,

have you ended up in an anxiety-riven part of your career because of your anxiety? You've gone towards some sort of ineffable thing that you can never, in some way you're kind of hooked on the roller coaster of oh god oh yes oh no or has that have those work conditions you know worsened or or kind of prompted your anxiety i think that's probably the longest question i've ever asked so you fire away i think i could probably

give you the longest answer you've ever had um the i uh i think actually i i think they are related but only because there was like a fundamental misunderstanding uh along the way for me which is that I think I approached, I think I wanted to do this as a job, this meaning about eight different things, I suppose, like, as in the writing telly, they're doing comedy, they're like sort of nebulously something,

you know, something to do with this, basically like an older, you know, like I just wanted, from being a kid, I just want to be the Chuckle Brothers because it looked like that's the best job. And I, like, so I think I vaguely have aimed at Tuckle Brothers and more or less,

more or less doing that. The, but I think I wanted, like, I knew from being younger that I wanted a career that involved lots of control, because I'm an only child and I struggle to, I really, I, not so much anymore, but I historically have struggled with collaborating in general. And I've struggled to play well with others. And I don't always, like, it would be good for me to have something where I'm, I'm, I'm, not going to do well with a boss. I'm not going to do well with a schedule. And I would be, I'll have this career where I'll have so much control. And it might not be, I might not have loads of money and it might not be stable, but I'll get to pick my hours and be my own boss. And so that is probably why I wanted to go into this. The reality is that you have no control

at all in this as a job. Like, once you go, once you go into TV, because everything has to go via. somebody who is functionally your boss, like, you know, and, or at least as a gatekeeper. And so maybe it's ended up being, it ended up being far worse for my anxiety, even though I entered into it on the basis that it would be good for it. I, um, on the topic of whether I, whether this is something that it should be doing, that I had a in February 2024 I was I had a I like fully collapsed and I had a

and when I came to I had a seven hour long panic attack where I was like thought I was going to die and it was in a hotel room and I managed to get a message to the front desk and I thought I was dying and an ambulance was sent and a guy sat and he'd put all these like things me like you know just to check it isn't a heart problem which it wasn't and there was nothing actually physically wrong with me but anyway this guy was sat with me and he wasn't like she wasn't quite

comfortable leaving because he was like well i don't know that it isn't going to just immediately happen and then he was just sort of making polite conversation with me for a bit and he was like asking what i do for a living i said what i did for a living and he was like this doesn't sound like a career for you. And I was just like, I think he's, I think he has kind of spotted something. But I got really angry at him and I think I was a bit rude to him. I mean, I was in a, in my defence,

I was in a state of quite severe distress. But I got quite angry at the suggestion that I wouldn't do it. And I think I was only anger at him because he's right. Like, of like, if I'd known what the job involves day to day, although things are going well at the moment, I still, you know, the day-to-day life of the, of Jono, you know, five to ten years ago is probably like, you know, you become a different person. I feel like that guy has, it's still having a really bad time back there.

Like, he's really, really struggling. And I don't think it's fair on him. So this is Jono. isn't he great? His show, Here Comes Mr. Funny. What a title. Is it the Edinburgh Fridge this summer at the Monkey Barrel too. And you can also keep up to date with Jono on Instagram at This Is Jono, J-O-N-N-N-O. You can see me live, including dates in Bristol, Marlbremach, Monmouth and L.A. Find out more at Stuartgoldsmith.com.com slash comedy, where you can also sign up to the Com-Compod mailing list. Coming up in the second half,

we're going to talk about the sheep's approach of building a sketch with structure, misdirection, and building towards something bigger than it seems. This is such a fascinating chat. If you're as big of a fan of sheep as I am, and I'm sure you are, and if you aren't, you should be. We will talk about the hidden fear. Oh, this is great. I mean, it's not great, but it's great to talk about it.

The hidden fear of a show's attendance, being more of a big deal than the performance itself. That's something I think we could all relate to. We'll talk about the turning point of getting out of your own way. And here, Jono's advice for aspiring comedy writers. And apologies, if you can hear the boy and the girl, in the background shrieking with excitement, they very nearly finished Mario Odyssey.

So I'm going to wrap this up shortly and go and join them, but I'll speak to you again after we get back to Jono. I want to talk to you about sheep's, obviously, but let's just drill back into the solo show because you did something very unique. When I invited you to come on the podcast, we had a couple of emails back and forth, and you said, oh, shall I send you a set list?

Would that be helpful? And no one's ever done that. It was very helpful, great little aide memoir. and also it was like I could see the structure. They were kind of script elements to it because it's in three acts and they've each got a theme.

I have to say, I didn't notice that at the time. I was busy enjoying the show and I'm sure part of why I enjoyed it was unconsciously recognizing that sort of theme. But I suppose I was about to ask you, is that how you normally write? But if you've only done the show five times

and this is your only one, then who knows? But I've started trying to write a solo show lots and lots and lots of times over the last 15 years, I would occasionally start trying. But then it was only when I was like, there is a show booked in. I was faced with, I don't know how...

I think the barrier for me doing stand-up has always been. I've no idea what I would do in 10 minutes. I've just no... I don't think I can get across anything that I want to do in 10 minutes. I don't back myself to do that. That's insane. Do you feel that way now?

Because I want to disavow you of that. Do you still feel like that or are you over that now? No, I'm not over that now. I still think that. I still think... You've got comedy songs. Why don't you do two songs? All right, yeah, I'll do that.

Why don't you do three one liners and then two songs, you fucking Muppet? Yeah, all right, fine, I will do that. I will do that. You were also, I really... Also, by the way, while we're on the topic of things I could be doing better, because I really don't know what I'm doing, it was very nice after the Edinburgh show, you came up to me and were like

we don't really know each other but you walked over and went you should be stood over there with the bucket and then and then and then and that you said that immediately before giving me a lovely lovely compliment about the show but the first thing you said

was you should be stood up there with the bucket and initially I was like did Stuart watch the show or does he think I'm supposed to be like collecting for a charity after whoever did the show I didn't register with me that you'd been there.

I'm long enough. enough in the tooth that I know I needed to get you that information first and I can enthuse to you on your way as I shepherds you towards where you should be standing. I didn't go and stand there in the end. Those crucial 30 seconds or three minutes after a show

you can't fuck about. That's when you've got to be out there getting them money. Right. I'll do that. I'll do that in future. I promise. You are by no means the first person that I've given advice to on where to stand and what to say and how to sell things and stuff. I'm an

inveterate hustler and I try and pass it on whenever I can. My thing with trying to write, I was like, I couldn't think, I was like, I don't think I can get right or wrongly. I thought, I don't think I can get across what I'm doing in, or I don't know what I would do with five to ten minutes, but I, I thought, an hour actually seems much more doable because then I, writing a show is what I've been doing for the last 15 years. Like, that is, whether it's a TV show, whether it's a sheep's show. or the pantomime I wrote, the musical, like, there's shows.

And if I sit and, if I sit and treat it as, it happens to be there's only one person in the cast, but as a show of, like, lights up, he walks out on stage and does, like, that suddenly feels very, very doable. And I was like, well, how, so I just approached it like everything else, of, like, break it into acts and individual scenes

and then talk about how they fit into the show. And that's the only way I could make sense of it. And then it felt like, quite doable. Like, but prior to that, it was impossible. It's like, I just don't know how. Yes. I don't know how you put together an hour otherwise.

Well, it does, that makes so much sense and I do retract calling you a fucking Muppet earlier on because I do think that if you, I mean, you're not a, you're not an experienced stand up. That's a fair thing to say. And so you wouldn't necessarily realize that you just do a mini version of that for 10 minute set. And if you don't know that, if you don't know how obvious that might seem to a stand up, that you just go, oh great, you know, finish on your best song, open on your second best song, throwing some one-liners, a couple of one-two punches to get them on board and then do it.

And then once you've got that structure, do that five times at gigs. And then you'll start to finesse and make the decisions that you would do. You know, you'll go, oh, this is, that is a funniest bit, but it doesn't really represent what I'm trying to do and all those kind of things. those are just absolutely at your feet whenever you choose to employ them because you've already got so much great gear, such imagination, such writing and a great relationship to the audience. So you've already got everything apart from the confidence to go, oh, I just do that for 10 minutes.

And the good thing is that I can confidently tell you that will be going out and doing that for 10 minutes 20 or 30 times will be much easier than the last 15 years of your life created. Fair enough. Which bits of the show? You said on stage during the show that some of that material you had literally done when you were 19. Is that right? Or 19 years ago? One of the other. What was some of the oldest bits? Without giving away the ending is the first solo thing I ever did on stage. The musical at the end. It's the very first thing I ever did by my... Oh, no, that's not true. I did like a silly monologue at one month earlier. But like it was... like a thing that at uni I wrote down on the set list for a show and just I just wrote down

I'm going to do five minutes and I'm going to see what I come up with and I went out and that's what came out and it's still my favourite thing I do on stage and I was like when I was doing the solo show I was like I'm just going to end on that like the earliest thing I've ever done that's lovely that's lovely that's very narratively satisfying as well The rejected bond themes

I think are so Like I watched them Since you said me that thing I've watched them three times that section Because not only do I I really like the jokes I like the structure of it The song writing in it

I don't know the first thing about music I love comedy songs And I've always This is lazy But I've always wanted to not learn to play an instrument Because I think it'll spoil comedy songs for me Do you mean? I love comedy

I learn to do comedy You know, it's kind of spoiled it in many ways. But I think, I love a comedy song. When you do the last one, the melody that gets you there to that last one is brilliantly written and brilliantly sung. And I don't know enough about music to know whether it's original or whether it's from something else.

All of it's original except for Goldnoy. Goldenai is the only one that isn't original in there. But that whole bit of the show comes from, I was for a while going to do an album of rejected bond themes and I Frankenstein them together. So I had written, there's only two more than the ones that were in the show that I'd written as full songs. And then I did a shortened version and made them,

I tweaked a bit to make it have a little bit of a story within it. But there's not much of one. But yeah, they, I mostly just started. doing that on stage because I really wanted to I wanted people to hear my bond themes because I'm very proud of them. I really think some of them sound like there would be passable bond themes. Yes. Well this is my point. Not only is the joke really really funny and the

jokes within the meta joke is really really funny. It's really well written and sung and I'm like this really works as a musical as a tune. Thanks. Like when you come across someone who's I think of this, do you know, Tom Cardi? No. He's an Australian musical comic. You might have seen him on YouTube,

but he does very short songs where the joke, he doesn't repeat the joke at any point. It really, really good, but he is clearly prodigiously talented and skilled as a musician across multiple, multiple instruments. And I think those kind of songs, songs that you can legitimately listen to, once you've heard it 10 times,

or like the, what are they called, epic rap battle with Kean Peel doing Mahad Ali and Michael Jordan. I've listened to that probably 50 times. I don't laugh at the jokes anymore. I just listen to it for the music and the rap, but it's just so good. So, definitely, all those bits have that kind of quality.

I felt like I was leading up to a question at the end of that, but I think it was just praise. Oh, great. That takes a lot of pressure off me, actually. It was good. Given that you went into that experience, and part of what you talk about is feeling like, I'm terrified of doing a show

and so I have to do a show. How do you feel now having had what I imagine was a creatively successful Edinburgh albeit three shows? Were they all as fun as each other? I mean, I just loved it. The audience were all in stitches. I would imagine now, even though you're very, very new to those solo stand-up shows, you're feeling pretty good about them. I've always felt pretty comfortable.

Well, that's not true. I used to not be comfortable performing on stage at all in early sheep's shows I always gave myself the smallest parts and then gradually became more and more comfortable doing it and I think I always think I got I got good so far as I'm good like to whatever extent I'm good on stage I got there in all at once in 2018

and then now I'm really comfortable and I love it but in the early sheep's shows it would be insane to pick me out on any of these sketch. But also, the two people I'm in troops with are, like, the funniest people in the world. So, like, quite, I would often just be like, well, like, Al is right there. Al should do that part. Like, he's the funniest guy. Anyway, but, like, or, but I, um, but then now it's like the most, but also weirdly, I've been the one who's never nervous of the three of us before we go on stage.

The other two, although better at it than me, are way more nervous before they go on. Why is that? Is it because you've got lower self-esteem and you're like, I'm already a disaster, this can't go wrong? Why would it be? No, it's because I never felt like it had any impact on my career. They were like, because they were still auditioning and going for parts. Like, how well they do in the show, will affect their career, or at least they, perhaps they will think that. This, I mean, this is for, this is for interviewing them, I suppose. But I imagine that that's more of it, whereas I was like, well, because my income is

reliant on selling scripts, this is like, I think I, I occasionally would have the feeling of like, we're all having fun, but they're at work, and I'm not when we're doing sheep. Like, I'm not at work. work is when I'm sat typing. But then, but yeah, with the actual doing the solar show, I've not been worried about performing, although I get a little bit of nerves before it, which is fun because I've never had that with sheep.

So I get a little bit of nerves before going out. But it's more, I was just worried that no one had show up. I was just really, really worried about an empty audience, and that's like a totally separate issue. What is that issue? Like I do shows and I worry that no one will turn up, but it's not, I don't think it's compulsive. It's like reasonable to, you know, you never know how many people you're going to get in through the door and those kind of things. But is it, what does it, do you have any theories as to what it's really about for you?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm just like, I always, I worry that I'm like, I always worry I don't really know what other people want or what people. are interested in and like I find it often of like even occasionally I've only recently sort of like nascently getting involved in social media like posting the odd thing and I've no idea what people were gonna like or respond to I really don't I mean I also don't watch much TV and I hardly ever watch gigs like so I don't really know what people are into anyway and I'm not an especially online person. So I like I think I'm just like

part of it is just I don't know what people like and secondly it's I'm worried that I think I think some of it also is just like the extraordinary success of Michael Michael's friends has led to me being like maybe people aren't interested in me

at all and it's safer although I feel equivalently comfortable on stage with sheep or by myself saying I'm putting on a show and Liam and Al aren't going to be there is terrifying from a financial standpoint. I'm just like, well, why will they come

if they know they're not going to be there? I just want to be clear. I'm saying yes, because I've understood, not because I agree. I totally disagree. I totally disagree. And it seems mad to me that you would be thinking,

yeah, to see your solo showers, it's like sheep's, but without the two best ones. ones. That's just my, my assumption would be, John I from Sheets puts on a show, all the Sheeps fans are going to come. We love you. We don't think the others are better. We, do you know what I mean? Like, we don't. And presumably, this is, this fear of yours is based on nothing more than your admiration and adoration of your funny friends. You're very, very funny in Sheaps and it's a three-hander, you know what I mean? Oh, I don't, I don't have like, it's not a, it's not a confidence issue in the show.

it's just like of more the other guys are on TV. Isn't that interesting? People come and watch people who are on TV. Sure. Like not people who like were in the script department for the most part. That's fascinating to me. Let's talk a little bit about sheep's because there is a thing that I shared with my nine-year-old son. And if you have, I've only described this to him.

It's a sheep's bit. And we, it's now a running joke between us. I don't know if it's available. I haven't been able to find it online. If you have a copy, I would love you to send it to me so that I could show him. It's the show where you opened with a song and dance number, which was deliberately underpowered. And he was off beat and off key. And it's one of the funny, not only did I just watching the audience catch on or not catch on that that was the joke was one thing.

Getting the joke myself was one thing. Enjoying the wrongness of it was one thing. and then just the brass balls of opening the show on a sort of dying song and dance number I've always, that's one of those, that's in the big bag of like, oh, my funniest 500 things I've ever seen at Edinburgh. Do you mean, that was, I just loved it.

And me and my son, like I sang a version of it, probably wrongly to my son, and we often sing it to each other now because it's so good. Can we get it above 500, do you think? Can we go? How high do you think we can get it? I don't think I'm being mean by saying 500.

I've been to 30 edit festivals. I think top 500 is still good. Yeah, I'll take it. I've got a recording of it somewhere, I think, just that opening song. But I can send it to you. If you could dig it out, I would love to play it to it. It was my favourite thing to do in that show by Miles, because it is really fun of...

Also, it's fun when audiences... Because particularly on the weekends when the audiences are a bit older, it would take just, and they're not going to give you quite as much benefit of the doubt, it would take slightly longer for them to acknowledge that this must be a mistake.

I think it helps, the bigger the room is, the more that it helps because the room is telling the audience there must be something to this. Like, but if you do it in a small room, you go,

ooh, these guys can't do it. These guys are, oh, God, it sounds awful, and this is the opening. The main bit I remember, is you all singing, get ready, because the show is good. And it's just for the benefit of people who never had the privilege of seeing that bit. What a decision.

Did you, when you came up with that bit just out of my own interest, who wrote that bit? Did you write that? The musical bit? Is that your performance? It was me, but it came from an in-joke when we all used to live together. I can't remember the in-joke, but I remember. remember it didn't seem like it was going to be something in the show and then I like played it to Liam and Al but it was like all the jokes were from like we'd all come up with

jokes over the years for it I just turned it into a sketch and was like let's what if we try opening the show with it it's just wonderful just the idea of like the did it feel that do you remember like the first time you opened the show at a kind of pressure gig with it going is this the best time to put it? Or did it just make sense to you that like the joke is we open with it? Yeah, I think it could only ever be the opening of the show. Yeah. I think part of it is just like this is, it's incorrect. Like it's part of what's funny about it is just that you've come out and you're in a top. Also, it's not the same aesthetic as the rest of the show. We're in top hat and tails,

and beholden canes and everything is saying this is old-fashioned showbiz. I think I like the idea that we as characters so far as that's what we are think that this is how you're supposed to do a show like you're supposed to come up but we don't have the

talent to do that kind of a show but we still think that that is what you're meant to be doing so we've tried and it's rubbish. It was so all the Sheep shows, and I'm really sorry, I think I arrived in Edinburgh the day after your Christmas special this year, and I was very sorry to miss that. But from all the sheep shows that I've seen, with, again, as I said, some of the cleverest titles as well, like The Giggle Bunch Brackets,

that's Our Name for You. It's such an extraordinarily good title. Or the, was it, 10 years, 10 laughs? I just think they're such funny titles. You can see why they work so, so well. But the comedy that you guys would do, to me, seemed very, it's really smart. And like I said, at the very beginning, it's great for a comedian because the rug pulls are very fast.

And the, like, what I loved was that you sort of flickered and kind of flowed in between doing a sketch and not doing a sketch. And the type of, like, did you have an internal language of the types of moves you would do? Because I can think of a kind of a particularly sheep's-ish

thing of what did I see one recently? I saw this morning I was watching like an 11 or 12 year old YouTube sketch and it was about eating a pie. It was about you and Al not eating Liam's pie that he'd made despite being really hungry

and there's a particularly sheep's-ish thing you do in that just as an example which is that you sort of established the reality of the sketch and then you layer on this other reality that there's a war on outside and that's never referred back to.

Then it's like your, I don't know, what are they? Maybe you can help me with the language or it or whether that is a thing that you recognise, where it's like, then there's a big paradigm shift where we understand something different about what's going on, but then there's another one before we've caught up.

I'm miming, for the benefit of the listener, I'm miming a paradigm shift as if it's the steering wheel on a grid down. Yeah, yeah, that's how paradigms shift. They go upside down, they go upside down like a wheel. well, Al wrote that sketch, but the, just to make it make sure everybody's credit,

Al wrote that sketch. But it is, yeah, I think that's a really cheap's move. I think there's like two things that maybe are like house style. I was thinking about it recently. None of it, I don't think it's conscious because we just like, we spent such an extraordinary amount of time,

just the three of us in a flat, like all broke and not, going out and doing things and socialising at all. And so we just got really weird and developed a sense of, a mutual sense of humour. But I think something that's characteristic of all we do is like two things. Usually, Jamie Dimitri pointed this out once, and I think he's right,

that usually the straight men are much weird than the funny character in the sketch. Like it's usually, usually they, there is, you find out something about, that goes, that is actually a lot weirder than the guy who's meant to be the funny guy. And then also we often imply

I like, I think a good cheap sketch for me usually involves like we set up an like an A, B and C plot and we close off the A and C plot and then leave a huge leave a massive thing open. So it like implies a world outside the sketch that you could spend a bit of time thinking about

if you wanted, but like, it's just like, hang on, is that not? And that just doesn't come back. There's usually something that's implied that we don't go into. And you just, you just have to try and spend a while, like, if you want, if you, if you wanted to try and make sense of it, it would, I don't think you would be able to. Because we don't. It's a very, like, I'm, really interested that you're, you, you have, obviously, you have such a facility and such a vocabulary for it. I would never have thought about it in those terms, but I can retroactively apply exactly what you've said and go, oh, yes, that's part of what tickles me so much about it, is to throw out these elements, some of which are resolved and some of which are just left forever. I think that's brilliant. Before we wrap up, could you, is there anything you, you talked a little bit about what you might say to you 15 years ago? Like, you maybe don't do it the same way. Just to try and take something more concrete. kind of like a takeaway

from this episode for aspiring writers who are listening to you going, you know the way, if you go to drama school, at the beginning they say, okay, so 99% of actors are out of work, 99% at the time, and everyone thinks, well, I'm going to be in the 1% of the 1% right? Because they're sort of youthful

and vigorous. If there is someone listening to this now, who is at the very beginning of becoming a comedy writer and they're hearing this sort of, we're hearing us talk about this difficult situation, And they're thinking, yeah, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to be different.

I'm going to be okay. Is there anything useful you could say to them? Any advice you could give them? Well, firstly, I think I'm at the start of a comedy writing career. I still feel like I'm at the start of one. I've had a couple of nice breaks recently, but there's no reason to think that they sustain. And so I think it might be a little,

it might be a bit smug for me to give advice. but if I'm giving advice to somebody who is in the same position as me for most of the last 15 years, then it would be do stand-up because so many, I mean, particularly if you do stand-up or move to America, they would be my two pieces of advice if you're a writer. Because the majority of, like, something that's been frustrating to me, I don't know if you'll agree about this, but my perception of it has always been that, like, in, you know, if I was putting together a panel show,

I would go, right, I'll go and look for some, I'll go to some improv shows, that's who you want. And if I was casting a comedy, I would go, oh, find some funny actors. And if I was looking for writers, I'd see who's written a funny script. in most of UK comedy they go right we need somebody for a panel show

that'll be a stand-up we need somebody to act in a comedy that'll be a stand-up we need somebody to write a script let's see what stand-ups see if we can teach a stand-up to write a script let's in I don't necessarily think that's the right way of doing it

but it seems like the solution is almost always let's try instead of finding somebody who can already do that thing let's approach somebody whose face we recognize from their stand-up and see if we can vicariously write that thing through them or like if we can vicariously work through a stand-up.

So my advice would be even if you don't... You probably... I think... I don't think I would have been particularly good at stand-up 15 years ago, but I think I would have probably had a much better 15 years if I had done it, if I'd just done it then. Final question? Yeah.

Oh, go on, sorry. Sorry, you had more... No, just because, like, it's the only thing you can do where nobody's in the way. Yeah. Yeah, it really is. It really is. And it's funny going straight into stand-up. A lot of people probably don't realize just how much freedom they've got. Because it's so easy to take stand-up for granted. Or just to recognize how you can do stand-up and get paid in the UK without being famous, which is next to impossible in the States. You know, just there's so much of it that we can take for granted. Final question. Thank you for your time. This has been brilliant. I've loved

talking to you. I ask this of everyone. I ask this of everyone. Thank you. I ask this of everyone. the end. Are you happy? Yeah, actually. I'm in a pretty good place at the moment. I've gotten out of my own way a bit in the last, and not just because of career stuff, like for the last sort of, uh, couple of years. Actually, I know this is perhaps a longer answer than you're looking for. I feel like a real turning point for me in terms of my mental health was putting out that Christmas album at the end of 2024 because it was it had been this sort of done project

on my computer for years and then suddenly like me and Al and Liam and this brilliant band and this great and my friend Alex producing and we had this great engineer and the blink industry's got us to do this

thing and got us into a studio and doing it all properly. That was like, it felt like a moment of like taking career stuff into my own hands a little bit and doing just a thing that I found fun. And it's probably the thing I'm proudest of so far. And ever since then, my whole vibe has been a lot lighter because I think I've felt like vaguely heard for the first time in a while. and then getting on medication that I probably should have been on a long time ago,

but I kept saying no to. And like I'm in a long-term relationship as a result. I think I'm not as a result, but as in I haven't sabotaged it as I historically would have done. I think I'm in a pretty good place and I'm really enjoying what I'm doing at the moment. So this was Jonno. Thank you so much to him for coming on the show. Here comes Mr. Funny is at the Monkey Barrel 2 at the Edinburgh Fringe. This summer you can keep up with him on Instagram at This Is Jono. And remember the exclusive extras that you can't find anywhere else can be yours if you join the Insiders Club on Patreon.

Patreon.com.com. You can find out about the audition that made Jono swear off auditions entirely. You can find out why there's no real community and sketch comedy. And of course, you can find out how. admiration within your own circle can shape what you make and how you believe in yourself. So find out more at patreon.com.com.com pod, Stuartgoldsmith.com slash comedy to find out where I am going to be. And thank you, by the way, to everyone that came out to Creatures Comedy Club in Manchester and Excess Malarkey. Creatures was really, like a beautiful handful of people. I think it was such,

it was like the first really nice day of the year and something like 10 people didn't bother showing up having booked. But I've got their money. So I'm by myself. a long, a long, cool drink. But those that were there, I really appreciate you coming. That was such a useful show for me. And then everyone that was at Excess Malarkey, I mean, come on, I'll probably do a little, for the patrons, I'll do a little mini-Steuenay about that

because it was one of the gigs of my life. And I will talk about that and why and all the attendant issues later on. Thank you to Jono for coming onto the show. And do, if you've not been watching SNL, UK, I don't know if they've started yet putting the sketches out on YouTube, as they should, but I'm sure that's a decision that's way out of his hands. But it's definitely worth tracking down the clips.

You can find it. I think that show is going to make stars of a lot of people. So, thank you to Jono. Thanks to producer Callum for producing the show. Thanks to Susie Lewis for the logging. The music was by Rob Smouton. I'm Stuart Goldsmith. The show is largely kept going to satisfy the whim of Messrs Goldstein,

Mohammed and Wilkinson. But also it is to satisfy the whim of our insider producers who actually bother paying for it. They are Luke Hacker, Roger Spiller, I Cave, Dave, Daniel Powell, Keith Simmons, Sam, Alan, Jay Lucas, Gary McClellan, Chris Swarbrick,

Dave McHarell, thank you for coming out to Excess, Dave. Paul Swaddle, Alex Wormall and James Burry, a big thank you to our special insider executive producers. That's Neil XS Peters and Andrew, triple XS, Dennant. I've no idea what physical size you are. I'm just having a bit of fun.

And to the super secret one as well. And there would ordinarily be a big old post-amble here because I haven't post-amble at you in a little while and I've got a lot to say. But I'm not going to miss the finale of Mario Odyssey. And if you are slighted by that, then I don't think you're the listener I thought you were. So I'm sure you're pleased for me and the boy and the girl.

Oh man. I'm going to get on my phone now and just very, very quickly do a little stew-and-a for the Patrions about that excess gig. it was wonderful. In the meantime, I hope you are maintaining a consistent sense of self. And I feel like I've mugged you off now by not post-ambling, but I can't. I've just, I've got bigger fish to fry emotionally, if not virtually, if not bowserly. Speak to you soon. How you getting on, guys?