The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - Elf Lyons Returns

Episode Date: October 16, 2026

Elf Lyons, Queen of Edinburgh, returns to the show 8 years and 252 episodes later as we dig into the award winning show, The Woman on the Edge which combines the best of comedy, theatre, and performance art. We discuss:what happens the moment people start saying your work is goodthe post-Fringe comedown and why it feels like a break-uphow her family taught her not to accept failurethe need to debate why something is funnywhy all clowns should do stand-up firsthow we get agency from turning what hurts into artand we find out if Elf is happy…Join the Insiders Club at Patreon.com/ComComPod where you can instantly WATCH the full episode and get access to exclusive extras where we discuss learning to clown at Gaulier, the pressure on new artists to prove they deserve to be there and how lip-syncing keeps her safe on stage.👉 Sign up to the ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok.Catch Up with Elf: You can see Elf Lyons is The Woman on the Edge in New York RIGHT NOW and in London at the Soho Theatre Walthamstow in January. Find out all the info and more at elflyons.com.Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod:✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ Exclusive extra content with Elf✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including weekly(ish) Stu&AsPLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE ON TOUR, find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy. Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.Get in touch: If you’re listening and thinking ‘I’d love to work with ComComPod on getting something out there’ or ‘there’s someone you should absolutely have on’ - drop us an email at [e-mail]! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Stuart here. You can go to Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy for tickets to my national tour. That's right. I'm taking my second ever climate comedy show. It's called Canary. I'm taking it to the Edinburgh Festival for the last two weeks of August at the Monkey Barrel, Cabaret Voltaire. And I shall see you there in the last two weeks of August. And then it's a national tour for this guy. Cambridge, Glasgow, Oxford, Manchester, Cardiff, Maidenhead, Sheffield and Birmingham, culminating in my biggest ever tour show at Bristol Old Vic. Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy for all your tickets. Hello, welcome back to the show. It's been an age. Lovely to be back with you. I'm Stuart Goldsmith. This is The Comedians Comedian. Your perennial guide to how comedians cope with everything. I often describe this podcast to people, should you happen to be a new visitor,

as the only not funny comedy podcast. Sometimes it is funny, but that's not the point. What I want to do is talk to my guests, get into their heads, and sort of warmly invite them to share their secrets for dealing with creativity and how they cope and how they cultivate their resilience and all of those sorts of things. And I'm thrilled to be bringing you today. This interview recorded a few weeks ago now, but crucially after a pretty critical Edinburgh festival for my guest. This is the return of Elth Lions.

Elf Lions, the Queen of Edinburgh, not her words, my words, and I'm hoping it catches on. She returns to the show eight years and 252 episodes after her first appearance, and we are going to dig into her award-winning show, The Woman on the Edge, which is frankly one of the most jaw-droppingly memorable shows I think I've ever seen. And I'm thrilled to tell you, if you hadn't heard it from anyone else, that it is, as Elf describes on this show, it is the best-reviewed show in the history of the Edinburgh Fringe. Well, it couldn't have happened to a more giving person, a person more utterly caught up and embracing

what it is to be a comedian, to be a clown, to be a maker of work. Elf, as you will hear, spends most of her free time teaching other people how to be as brilliant as her. And it is just, I just think, I'm kind of in awe of her. And she's a mate, which is nice, but I am genuinely in awe of her. The show, I'm thrilled to tell you, let me just check my notes, because I want to make sure I get this exactly right. It's just been extended. It's off Broadway. How does it work? It's at Soho Playhouse in New York City and you'll need to tell me whether or not that's Broadway.

I don't understand these things. But it's been extended until, it says here through, because they're American, it's been extended through November the 8th. And it's an incredible run of critical acclaim and audience response. It continues for another three weeks. She's absolutely smashing it in New York. In this first half of the episode, we're going to talk about the post-fringe come down.

I hope that's been dispelled by now and why it can feel like a breakup. We'll talk about how her family taught her not to accept failure. We'll discuss the need to debate why something is funny. And we'll find out exactly what happens the moment people start saying that your work is good. There's never been a better time to support us. So before we get stuck in, just a quick reminder, you can leap on the Patreon, as people do occasionally do. And for only £3 a month, you get instant ad-free access to the full video and audio.

Yes, they're all in video these days of this episode. You get extra content with Elf. You get the new format, Stu and A. every week. I'm sticking to it pretty well. And although I do owe you one, which I'll record now inside as apologies. And generally the sensation, the sort of feeling that comes with going, God, I've listened to this for years and I never got round to paying. Maybe now's the time. Go to patreon.com slash comcom pod. But here is elf lions. I would like to start with the post-fringe come down.

Should we do that? Because I don't, how much of a post-fringe come down do you have? Because you're about to go to New York. Yeah, I get an extreme, I don't, being honest, I don't really process it very well. I get very depressed if I don't have anything to do. So I immediately scheduled in, I taught only a two-hour workshop, but I taught a two-hour workshop on the Friday. So I finished on the Monday, came back on Tuesday. came home to my family on Wednesday, went on a date on Thursday and then taught the

workshop on the Friday. I packed it in, was professional and I felt like having something to do on Friday gave me I've got quite an unhealthy relationship to work. Okay. So I think for me it made me feel useful like it gives me that sort of sense of like I'm doing something productive with my time. But also my rule is I'm always do, I try and do exercise in the hour I was meant to go on stage. Oh, that's a good idea. Because your body,

your body starts to seize up and all the adrenaline and the cortisol. It's like, you know, when you go through a breakup and your body, you go a bit insane because your body's getting rid of all these hormones and it's grieving something that isn't there and you don't have access to it. I do feel like that happens with, after Edinburgh

or after a sustained period of touring. Yes. Because your used, your body is so, used to, you know, if I'm on stage at 9, by 6pm, my body's going, right, we need to warm up, we need to stretch, we need to get ready. And if I don't have something that I'm moving towards. Yeah, that's a good idea. I find I often get ill the moment I walk off stage on my last show. Yeah, the moment it was mad, the moment the last show finished on Monday, because I did two shows back to back, the moment I finished that last show, my voice fully went. And I didn't just go.

like it was off. You couldn't hear me. I was just a breath. I sounded like two dilapidated lungs that had like shriveled up crisp packet. There was nothing in my body at all, which was remarkable that my body had held on that long. And I think before we get into that,

maybe I've wrong-footed myself by asking you about the post-fringe moment, because not everyone, not everyone listening to this will be aware of the fringe that you just had, which is the sort of fringe where I for one have decided to refer to you as Queen of Edinburgh every time I refer to you from now on. Because I think this, like, let's start with the actual show before we get into all the plaudits. Because your show this year was just fucking extraordinary.

Like the number of reviews which use the phrase tour de force. And I was like, oh, that's a good, you don't often see a tour de force. This was like one of those kind of all-timer, holy fuck. It's the sort of show that if I did it at Edinburgh, I'd think, well, that's me done. I never need return. Like, that's the thing now. I've been as good as I can possibly be. It was extraordinary. Thank you. I'm really, I didn't appreciate, being honest, it was an incredibly hard Edinburgh because I didn't expect it to go that well. My management who'd seen the show and friends who'd seen the show were talking very positively about it.

I said, let's just be very aware. Because I've, you know this, we've had these experiences where you make something good and nobody sees it or, you know, I remember Raven got like a host of two and three star reviews when I first did it, you know, and I know that shows great. Yeah, it's great. But I have, you know, it's like when you, they're your babies and then you bring them out into the world and people go, no, your baby's really ugly. And you're like, no.

She's got a lovely personality, actually. So I didn't expect it to go that well And then I think it was on day four or five And like I think the fifth five star review came out And I sobbed like I was in bed And I was so tired and I just sobbed Because I couldn't It was like this extreme release of going

Oh I think I think I've landed the plane And I didn't think I would And then also going Oh right like We can't phone this in Like there's no opportunity this fringe now is,

this isn't like, I said to loads of friends before Edinburgh, we can have such a fun Edinburgh. Oh my God, we can have the wildest time. All my best, like all my friends are out there. I love Edinburgh.

I love getting to see everyone. It's so sociable. I love seeing all the shows. And then realizing, no, actually, I can't do that. Yes, the show is so good. It's crippled your social life.

Like, going, oh, this, I think this could actually help my, I think this might be career change, hopefully. This might get me work. I might be able to earn enough money to put a deposit on a house. I need to really put, I can't fuck this up. So there were obviously a few nights I really left my hair down because I needed to because the show is so mentally.

It's not a fun show to do, being honest. It's not a fun show to do. But I'm so proud of it. I sound really negative. Do you know what was fascinating? I think you're being negative, but you're being negative in the context of knowing how. incredible and stellar, something like 25, five-star reviews. So if people don't know that, they might not realize.

So it's the most well-reviewed show in the history of the Edinburgh Fringe, which is... That's the sentence I wanted. It's the most well-reviewed show in the history of Edinburgh Fringe, and it sold out every single show. We did extra shows. I do the whole show on tip-toes. It annoyed a lot of people online. I love it. I think it's an incredible show, and I can back it.

I think that's the cool. The one thing about this fringe is... I remember with horses in 2024, that went incredibly well. I remember that getting loads of five-star reviews. And everyone was being like, Elf's having the fringe. And I was having the best. Like, I was having a great fringe. And I remember thinking, I'm never going to have a fringe like this ever again.

And also because I knew the show wasn't going to get nominated for anything or, like, I wasn't running for anything like that. I was just having a great time being an alternative fringe artist who was having a great fringe at the place where she makes work for. and I just loved it and I just had a great time and then this is the first time where

something I had such an array of extreme success very early on that for the first time I had to defend the work because that's something that I don't think people talk about is the moment people start saying your work is good

that is when people come out to say it isn't in a way and you actually have to in a way that people think oh no you wouldn't have to because there's proof No, you actually have to really defend it till the cows come home. And that was a really important lesson for me, this fringe,

because I used to be quite undercutting about my work going, yeah, well, it's this and this. And actually this fringe has taught me, I go, no, this, it's an incredible piece of work. And I can tell you why it's an incredible piece of work. And you might not like it, but it is a categorically incredible piece of work. Boom, boom, boom. So it's given me a bit more strength than like iron in my blood. Yes.

So my inevitable follow-up question is how has it gone down on your family WhatsApp? Oh, they're so supportive. They're so, they're so, though it's so funny. Because the context of this question is you'll remember, if people don't remember the first time you're on this show, we had a conversation about your family WhatsApp, and you briefly showed it to me. And since then, I've occasionally, I don't know,

I don't know that I've checked in on you, but it's come up in conversation socially once or twice. You have a very driven family who I think. are critical and demanding and they push. Oh yeah, well, we're high, we're really high achieving, but we always have been like, but we love our work. Like my dad loves his work and my mum loves her work and my brother loves his work and my sister loves her work.

And the way we talk is we talk about art and we're sharing articles all the time. Like, you know, but my family, because also the context of the show, so my parents saw every single work and progress in London. Okay. The only person who's not seen it is my real. brother because he lives overseas. My sister's seen quite a lot of them. They,

my brother put in the family chat very early on. He was like, let's just leave, let's leave Emily Ann B. Because they've all got me on Google alerts. I don't, but they all get updates about, you know, reviews and stuff. So every time I got a five or whatever, it's so funny, if I got a four, my mom was like, these men, these men. know nothing about art. Who are they?

These awful men just trying to hold female artists down. They think that women's literature is secondary to literature when actually we are half of the population. Do you know what I mean? The vitriol and I had to be like, it was still a four.

He didn't hate it. No, like it's the most incredibly supportive WhatsApp group. But our family, the only way to describe it is, you know, we're a pack of, we're a pack animals. Like we keep together. If you come for any of us, we're going to, I mean, we've got each other's back.

And actually, why during the fringe, if you've seen the show, you know, it's about personal stuff. But then someone who's in the show turned up in Edinburgh for the midweek. And I had a real crisis of confidence because I suddenly, I basically had a bit, I had constant panic attacks. And I just put in the family chat, I said, I'm struggling. And my dad just went, I'm getting on the train. And he got, I think I texted at whatever time it was, like three in the morning. I was having a bit of a panic. And he was on like the 5, 20 or 6 o'clock train to Edinburgh.

And then came up in Edinburgh and was there at every single show and sort of escorted me around. So like my, you know, we just work, we work really hard, but we care. It's not like an, you know, they taught me the failure is not an option. mentality of failure is the moment you choose to stop. It's the moment you should. And actually Rodney Mullen, who's an amazing skateboarder, he talks about this. And I find him really aspirational. He talks about what it means to succeed in whether it be athletic sport or any sort of competitive industry. And it's, it's not necessarily about your skill. It's about how you deal with failure and about how many skateboarders you meet

who've got all the ingredients and techniques to be phenomenal skateboard. borders. But they do not know how to deal with the failure and the reality that most of the time it's falling off. And then how do you deal when you don't get placed and getting back up again? And so, you know, it's something in my family or like all of us. I've had a very successful career and I continue to do so. But it's because I focus on that I don't bother tell my family or tell my friends how many times I repeatedly get knocked down or, you know, ideas or things I create that don't get accepted. You know, I think you meet people who only focus on the stuff they don't get.

You have to just go, well, that's just a byproduct. That's just, that's, you know, that's, it doesn't matter. You need it, but we just keep moving forward. You go, right, okay, cool. That didn't happen. Let's move on. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.

Just go back to that notion, just before you mentioned the skateboarder and the skateboarding analogy, you said it's the failure is not an option. Now, on the surface of it, sort of a casual glance, we go, all my family are a bit, failure is not an option. That sounds quite negative. But you mean something more nuanced than that, don't you? It's the mentality. It's the mentality.

Where by you can't fail, what count, is it like sort of interrogating what constitutes a failure? Because trying something honestly in it not working isn't a failure. Well, it's like, for example, I can't, I'm really dyslexic, so I can't speak languages. I've tried. And I was in the bottom division for French, and I got an unclassified in my,

I got an unclassified. my mock exam, I remember. My whole family, because I'm very, very dyslexic, so everyone's always had, you know, been around with Clark. I couldn't read for a very long time. Very discalculic and very dyspraxic, etc. And so, but knowing I had to do the exam,

but I had such a traumatic relationship to French because it was always language-based. So my parents going like, right, okay, how do we find a way for Emily Ann to have access to this? So this isn't traumatic, because she has to still do the exam, but we just need to get her into the exam. So what do we do?

So it was like cinema. So we just, I watched as much French cinema. French comedians. I watched loads of French comedy even though I didn't understand it. French audio, but like everything. Let's look at French painters and love the art that comes from. Let's reframe your relationship to this. So it isn't a trauma response when someone mentions speaking French.

Which reframes it. So now I don't look at it in this panic. I can't speak French at all. but my knowledge of it is extensive. I won't be able to handle my own with a couple, with a family in French, like I can't speak at all, but talk to me about cinema and I'll be able to get there.

It's like you re-change the route. It's like if you find, you get to, when you're driving somewhere and they go, the road's closed, you don't go, well, I guess we've got to turn back. You have to suddenly take a brand new, even if it's more scenic, or it means you have to drive it a different gear.

and like it's just refusing to stop okay because there are so many shows that I've like every time you get a bad review come on you're going to cancel the show like you get two stars published in a newspaper do you go right well I guess I guess I'm going home then no of course not you have to go back because it's your job and that's sort of what it is and like finding those ways to make it possible so like when my engagement when that broke down in 2025 and I was very unwell everyone in my family was like okay well

the reality is she has to do the shows she's booked in she has to be a horse she's got she can't take it out on the audience you know like I was really on the verge of a breakdown so everyone in my family basically just cocooned me up and you know were very patient with me whilst you know I was X, Y and Z off stage and doing everything I could to just get me in the

space to go on. Is that, does that, you know what I mean? Yes, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I think I just, because you referred so sort of in passing to my family a very, not to put words in your mouth, you said something like, my family, a very, failure is not an option. And I just, because I remember the conversation that we had previously about your

WhatsApp group, your family WhatsApp group, like years ago. And my assumptions, I think, of that were like, God, they're really, they're quite hard taskmasters. Yeah. But then also it's like, I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't, do you know what I mean? Like discipline is really good. Like someone, I went to a very acclaimed university to teach a workshop recently.

And one of the students said, and it was part of quite an elite comedy society. And they said, you know, how do you become as successful as you are? It was effectively the question. And I said, well, I'm finished. I started gigging when I was 18. You keep gigging. You do an Edinburgh show. You do a fringe show.

You're not very good. You keep gigging. You work. I watch loads of other performers. I did workshops. I read a lot. I just detailed what I did. And then they said,

but what if I don't want to do that? That's the response. And I remember when I said to my dad when I was like 15 or 16, I think I want to be a comedian. And I remember him getting me a copy of timeout. and saying, right, we'll circle the comedy nights you want to go to, and we'll go to them. And then I ran downstairs at the King's Head, and I booked my slot.

And so my dad picked me up, and he drove me to the gig. And he sat on the front row, and I was shit. I was shit, I was really shit. And you went, you were shit because you hadn't prepared. I obviously came in a bit hard, but I only lasted two and a half minutes because I hadn't written anything. I didn't really know how to do it. Because I thought you could just improvise, because I thought,

what, 16 at the time? And, yeah, and I mean it's very, I do think it's important to have discipline. What was your answer to the person at the elite university who said, what if I don't want to do that? I said, then you're not going to be an artist. I just, I find that response baffling. I mean, you can do it, you know,

there must be another way you can do it. Of course you can. Were they meaning what they wanted to do was make sketches on Instagram and? I'd do that kind of route. Perhaps. I can't remember the rest of the conversation. But yeah, it really stood in my mind.

Because it is grafted. But also, why fear the work? Why fear the work? Why is working hard on something? Oh, I see what you mean, yes. Why fear hard work? Yeah. Because you've devoted your life to doing this thing.

So presumably you enjoy it. So presumably you want to work hard at it. Yeah, like this is that reframing when someone says, oh my goodness, I've got so many worries, I'm so stressed. I'm like, do you have worries or do you have things you have to do? I've got lots of things I have to do, but I actually only have a few worries. And we often conflate and mix those two.

Worries are often just tasked. I'm a chronic worrier, and that's actually quite, that's really good. I've got lots of things I need to do and also some worries. It's very easy to mistake one for the other. Yeah, I like, yeah, I just think the more, It's that pottery analogy. You know, you put the two out. A collection of students who make as many pots as possible

and some students who were focused on making one perfect pot. The people who make the best pots are the ones who make loads of pots. You keep churning out, keep working, keep practising, keep experimenting. With the idea being that eventually you can then make one perfect pot. Yeah. Or actually just make a multitude of very different dynamics, slightly flawed, but all intrinsically inherently interesting pots. Well, if you focus on ages just making one pot,

that pot becomes symbolic of everything that you are for an entire body of time. Yes, and then you can't fail and you can't take risks and you can't grow because you're too busy trying to make a perfect pot. Yeah. Which I think is why it was bloody relief that I knew nothing about the industry at all with doing free fringe shows. And I had done so many bloody solo shows before I did Swan. Do you know what I mean? Like I had no idea. I had no worry about it.

But the Edinburgh fringe was much healthier back then. And I think personally it's become absolutely toxic. and if you were a younger artist now, I cannot imagine that being a fun environment. Like I cannot... Well, talk to me about that because there is, like, obviously it changes. We've both been going for decades

and it has changed in lots of different ways. And I suppose my assumption would have been that it is more collaborative now and there are more weirdos and there's more women and people who don't fit binaries in terms of kind of gender or whatever. I feel like there's a lot more... people, there's, my, my sense from the outside is that there are much larger communities of

alternative people supporting each other. Completely, completely. Those areas are absolutely incredible. And I think they're fantastic. Just economically speaking, the festival is not conducive, I think, for allowing those spaces. Because, and do you know what? I also feel like there's something, because I'm currently obsessed, I get really obsessed

with things. For an industry in art form that I think is meant to be so open-minded and baffling, I find it fascinating and how binary and didactic we can be about how the art form works and we can be so objective and we forget the subjectivity of our art form. and I wonder if it's because of the pressure of like awards or industry or being TV or the fact that the industry is changing so much in response to online people don't quite know where to focus but like when I watch a comedian

I'm not just watching them to enjoy I don't want to notice only what I find funny when I'm watching a comedian I'm watching their breath and watching how they use their feet and watching how they use lighting and sound design the script, the structure. Like you're paying attention to all the components of what makes an artist. And I find the thing with, and I noticed it with reviews this year. I wasn't reading mine.

But, you know, you naturally, sometimes a review would come up or a friend would share a review that they'd received that they thought was unfair. And what I find interesting in the discourse in comedy is we don't, we're often obsessed with what the artist has done. and not why they're doing something. So when you chat to other comedians, they're like, oh, he was really good. So what he did, he does this joke, and he does this joke this.

Oh, and what he does, he does a really good callback. We explain exactly what happened, but we very rarely get into the why. And I remember when I first started working at the Forest Fringe, I'd see loads of weird shows and comedians and artists who were sort of, I remember seeing Daniel Kitson at 8.m. the morning. And I didn't necessarily find him funny, but I knew he was funny. But I didn't have the access to it,

because I was not of the right age to get it. And remembering having all these debates about why it was funny and how it was funny and where he placed material, etc. And it made me think about our relationship. And this is, you know, like, this is why I love Brian Logan's reviews

and why I think Brian gets loads of stick is I think Brian is one of the only critics who actually reviews comedy as an art form. everyone says he never mentions being funny and yeah obviously he could mention it but he's not reviewing a show based on that he reviews it on everything on the why on the how and yeah a show might be funny funny funny

but he's not just interested in that he sees it as an art form and we for an industry that wants to be taken as seriously as other creative sectors we don't always talk about it with this we actually I think sometimes we sneer on anyone who tries to treat it

like an art form, which is why I think there's a lot of criticism towards the clowns scene, because actually a lot of the clowns are more theatrically minded. Yes, yes, whereas more kind of trad comedy people are funny at all costs. Yeah. And you're like, no, not. Costs, obviously funny, but let's look at the, look at all the possibilities. And also comedy isn't just immediately like comedy is obviously timing, but there are lots of different types of laughter. We don't just want ha ha ha ha. We want giggles, we want nods, we want snorts, we want those moments of someone turning to someone else and tapping their thigh and going,

and those laughs all have different rhythms of how you create them, and they all have different pacing to execute that, you know, to elicit that from an audience. So timing isn't just immediate, it isn't just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, it's jazz. And I sometimes think when people watch shows and they go, I didn't find it funny, I thought it was overhyped or I thought it, you know, I'm like, oh, but were you just sitting there, watching when you laughed or were you taking in what was happening in the room? And like, tell me if I'm talking to, but this was what I realised the other day. This is why I've gotten obsessed with sport about learning from athletes. Because I got fed up in Edinburgh listening to conversations when someone would say,

oh, that show was overhiked. Everyone was telling me it was funny. I didn't find it that funny actually. And I'm like, well, that's not discourse. If everyone's finding it funny, then it is funny. but perhaps because the performer is of this age from this lived experience and not to do with you that might be why you couldn't engage with it

but let's pull it apart a bit more what was the artist actually attempting to do how did you feel watching the show first of all because that is more telling about whether the art was successful but when I was watching Fulham versus Crystal Palace on Saturday with my dad I realised I was watching the game wrong because when you start watching football

The mistake you make is you only watch your team. You're only watching your players, which means you don't notice when the other team comes in and tackles. And the key to watching football properly is when you sit back and you take in the whole game. You're not just obsessed with what matters to you. You're obsessed with all the players. And I think when you watch a comedy show inaccurately, or, you know, that's unfair. But if I come into a get-a-show and I'm like, I only want to care about how it relates to me, me, me, and makes me laugh.

I'm not actually taking in what's happening. And you can see that sometimes. And that's the difference between a good critic and a bad critic or whatever. You have to learn to watch the game. And when I watch my, when I chat to my friends like during the football, the World Cup, I found it amazing how everyone who doesn't, regardless of whether our experiences and knowledge of football, everyone's got an opinion. And no one's saying that anyone's opinion is wrong.

Because you're accepting that everyone's noticed something else on the pitch. So you're like, oh, I really like Spain's triangulation. They're so, so, oh, yeah, well, Argentina came in much stronger. They're much more aggressive. Yeah, but did you see that cut? He made, he could tell from the back, from the midfield, you know, blah, blah, blah. And in comedy, we don't always have that. People are too, sometimes I think, algorithmically led now, going,

if it doesn't make me laugh, it is not funny. Yes. No one ever says of football, that wasn't football. Yeah, you never do that. Or like when you watch sport, or, you know, you look at a mathematical equation, you go, you say, that doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense because you don't have the infam- once somebody explains to you that X equals 1 and Y equals 2,

then you can pull it apart, blah-b-b-b-b-b-ah. But you don't go, well, that's not maths. Sure, sure. You go, well, that's boring. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a different, and I, and there's all, and everyone can have access to this, but it's just about changing the language,

or not changing the language, it's like, trying to explain it. Sorry, it's, it's, because comedy everything can be funny and everyone's opinion matters and it's just about how am I trying to do you know what it is it's just when people don't take comedy seriously as an art form and it really is an art form and so I want people to talk about comedy with the same passion that we talk about sport with the same passion we talk about paintings or the same passion we talk about anything else and we don't and the moment I hear a comedian or anyone in the art form in our industry sort of undercutting

it. I'm like, we're not doing this any favours. And like when I make shows or like when I made woman on the edge, I don't care if you like the show, if you don't find it funny. But if you tell me that you were talking about it with your friends for three days afterwards, I know I've made a crack and piece of art. If you've left annoyed and you're talking with someone, or if my show is still on your mind 24 hours later or if you're still thinking about it five days later

or you're annoyed enough about it that you write on Reddit or something about it a week later I know I've made a cracking piece of art So this is elf glorious to see how well she's doing this remains one of those shows where the fact it wasn't nominated

is brilliant for artists because if this doesn't get nominated doesn't that sort of suggest that there's no such thing as being nominated with all due respect to everyone that's ever been nominated and won awards and the validity of those things. No one has ever been incorrectly nominated or won anything. But I do take issue with the very notion

that a thing is better than another thing and when shows like this and others I could name are overlooked, I think it's great for the mental health of all comedians because this is just a masterpiece. You can see it. It's the woman on the edge, and you can see Elf Lyons in the Woman on the Edge in New York until, well,

It says here 18th of October, but it's been extended through the 8th of November. And you can see it in London at the Soho Theatre, Walthamstow, which is the massive one in January. So for God's sake, book tickets now, it'll definitely sell out, get in there, get down the front, and just, you'll find out everything you need to know at elf lions.com, but just, it's just great. Right, enough, enough about how great it is. Let's talk about how great I am. I've got a few dates left of my UK tour of Canary. Thank you to everyone who came to see us in Cambridge and Glasgow and sold us. out in Oxford and moved us up to a bigger room in Manchester. It's been such a joy. Cardiff was also sold out and how lovely. So is Maidenhead coming up soon. It's so fun to have people

get in touch with me and say, can you sneak me in? Could you squeeze me in? And having to say to them, no, it's absolutely rammed and there's nary a house seat left. So thank you to Cardiff. We're coming up in Maidenhead, Norden Farm on the 16th of October, but that's sold out, Soz, mate. The foundry in Sheffield and the Birmingham Glee are. doing well but not yet sold out, so getting quick on the 6th November and the 13th November, respectively, and then of course it's the big one. At the time of writing this, there were 33 seats left. Now I think there's 21 seats left, and I think they're all restricted view, but they've put in some ones right up at the top of the back of the Macarra Gallery where you have to perch. You don't stand,

but there's a thing you lean on. I'd be happy of doing that, but you will be your way away. It's Bristol Old Vic on the 18th November, so get yourself to Stuartgoldsmith.com slash comedy, and be part of that. I'm going to be shooting the show. So it's going to have something special in the second half that I'm also shooting, looking forward to that. And as you can tell, I'm as giddy as a goose. Sign up to the Comcom Pod monthly mailing list at Stuartgoldsmith.com and pin back your lug holes, because in the second half, we are going to discuss why all clowns should do stand up first. Controversial.

How we get agency from turning something that hurts into art. We'll find out about Elf's desire to make her next show about flight. will discover the secret to always writing the ending first, plus we will find out at long last whether the bastard's happy. Let's get back to Elf Lions. Let's just talk about stand up a little bit, because I remember I will never forget seeing you, who I previously had pegged as a kind of clown theatre maker, showmaker,

when I first saw you supporting Auntie Donner in Bath, do you remember? Yeah. And I was just like, holy shit, I didn't realize you were like an absolute balls to the wall headliner stand up as well. And then, of course, you came in. Thanks, Jude. You're so nice to me. You are, mate. No, no, no.

It was so good. There was absolutely hundreds of people in that room. And they were like there to see Auntie Donner. It's not an easy gig doing support, especially not when they're like a, you know, a Netflix, YouTube, multi-sketched sensation, you know, very boisey, kind of hairy, sweaty sort of an act. And you came into it and had them in the palm of your hand. And then, of course, when you came and did my PTA gig for me. Oh, I love that gig.

The little older receptionist lady had her kind of hair blown off with the content. And she never came back. No, she did. But I think your stand-up, let's just talk about the distinction between making the work between your stand-up. Do you feel you have a stand-up self and a clown self? And are they distinct, or is it the same you with a different? I don't know. I actually don't know.

Do you know what? And it's so weird to you, because I've started in Adelaide Fringe this year, I started coming on stage just as me. And the truth is, when I just come on as me, like dropping that sort of aggressive persona I used to have a stand-up,

I can't look at the audience. I think it's a neurodivergence thing. It must be like, I find eye contact really hard anyway, except when I'm in character on stage. But when I'm just me, like I'm very funny but in a very different way in a much softer way

than the way you saw me, Auntie Donna. Okay. And I think at the moment I'm going through a bit of a re, a re, re-rebirth sounds, but a redefining of who I am as an artist on stage as a comic, as a stand-up.

Your stand-up show, because you also did, and I've not seen it, but you did an hour of that, was it Talks Dirty? Yeah, which is... Great show, great show. I took it off of YouTube, though, because... Okay. I don't, do you know what?

I just, Stu, at the moment when I die. It's dirty. It's dirty, but like, and also I was a secondary school teacher for a period of time, and I do love teaching. But I don't,

I want the right to be forgotten, Stu. Like, the moment I die, let everything be removed. Let it just live in the memory and like, the memory of people. That's great.

Anti-legacy. That's good. The whole point is it's just here now. Well, yeah, it's, before I go and stay. this is something I do before every show. I hold my arms up and I say,

I thank you to every artist that came before that inspired every artist that led me to breathe these words. And I thank every artist that will come afterwards after I am gone. Because what I love is knowing, I remember once when I was doing my master's and going through the VNA archives and I was reading these letters

to a performer, a vaudevillian performer, end of the peer performer, performer and this couple saying thank you so much because during the war obviously our peers closed so we traveled all the way up to come and see you because we've not been able to see everything anything and it was really lovely to see your act again and you think of all these performers who inspired a performer who inspired another performer who inspired another performer that one day inspired someone that you love who when you watched you went ah and so the breath of them exists in the spaces in between your work.

And I really love, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to become worldwide famous, and I have no interest to be. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm a fringe artist till I die. Like, it's why the fringe matters so much to me. But I like, and it's why I love teaching. Like, I love teaching more than I love performing.

But I like knowing that maybe when I'm 90, there'll be like a stand-up who will have a particular thing that they do that they might have got because someone and they taught them that and they learned it because at one point they might have done a workshop and they got told oh i got told by offline that if you do that it actually gives you more time before you can deliver that joke and they're gone oh yeah i remember that do you know what i mean like i think that's that's the part of the interconnectivity of our art form the way old standups used to share everyone's jokes and material like it was teamwork that for me yes i i think it's interesting repeating that mantra to yourself

you go on is I do understand how that would be enormously beneficial in terms of formalising a thing that we know to be true, but that probably I will forget on a day-to-day basis. Like in my core, I know that the laughs are out there. It's just our job to direct them. We just tease them down and they're there and then we tease them down and do it and that's an archetypal job. I used to be the fucking court jester at Warwick Castle when I was a teenager. That's so cool. Obviously I was a daft costume. character fake version of a thing and who knows if there was one originally anywhere but there is something really kind of sort of mythic and permanent and like you say vaudeville acts or since anyone ever like someone making someone laugh by having a bladder on a stick and bonking them on their head with it there is something genuinely timeless about that and the idea of giving i think

with street performing the way generic lines get thrown around that teamwork is the most generous way wonderful way of thinking about that, you know, sharing acts and what have you. But the idea that you take from the pot and you also want to put back into the pot. It's the only way the industry stays healthy. It is the only way the industry stays healthy. Because the reality is it is competitive. Obviously, everyone's going against each other for, you know, there's only so many spots on, you know, the taskmasters or, you know, those shows. Like, we all know that reality. So why not just make it really healthy in the process to get there? And it's why if anyone's, sort of if anyone's got any opinions about me, you know, it's like it's not my business,

what people think about me, but also if you've never met me and you have an opinion about me, I disregard it. It doesn't matter. Or if someone tells me something about someone and there's no actual evidence for it or it's gossip, put it to bed because does it make the industry healthier? And actually in terms of with artists, it's, you know, when you keep on hearing, I've never seen this performed before. Like this, they're doing something game changing and I go and see the artist and I go, oh no, that's actually been done before and that's no discredit to the artist,

but it's just like so much amazing stuff has been done. Take your time to take inspiration from everything that has been created now. There is so much that has been made that is phenomenal. From the 1800s, 1900, like you look and do research and, like, find images on Pinterest. Like, Pinterest is one of the most amazing places. And you can really get inspired and very excited, and you can discover all this stuff without,

a budget without having to go out of your house and there's so much available to watch. I really like and actually just going back to the football method, I know I'm really obsessed with football, but you know how there's the different leagues and you've got Premier and just, I just about understand the divisions. I was thinking about this because I sometimes oscillate between being like obviously as a teacher sometimes like manager thought also we're all our own managers but we're also the player and we have to operate those two worlds as performers a lot of the time. and especially I did before I got produced and promoted

I had a promoter but I used to do it all myself but I think the most exciting performers who keep going are the ones who are still engaged watching all the matches do you know when you watch performers and they've achieved success and then they they age out and the reason they age out is because they stop watching the younger division

And it was like I watched this player in Fulham He made a shot And he tried to shoot from 35 yards away And everyone was like Wow, how arrogant do you have to be I think you could shoot for 35 yards away And I was like because he's 19

And if he got it You would have thought that was incredible Well you have to encourage You have to watch the player The younger players make reckless choices But brave choices And you've got to always celebrate the risk But like I love with Edinburgh

or what I think is great is going to watch all the artists of all different ages and international stuff and going like and you see people and you're like God that was a hot mess like God that was a shit show

but phenomenal performer like God they've got no idea how to structure a show but eight years time they are going to kill and then like I get really excited and then I sometimes meet there's a few people

and they just don't go and see I don't go and see stuff and you go but that means you're not going to be the best forever. The only reason you're going to stay good is if you know what's going on. Because you learn up and down and to the side. You don't just learn from people older than you.

I really like, I think that's, I think it's really fucking sick to go and watch it all. Obviously this year I couldn't see that much because my killing heels were absolutely destroyed. So I didn't really see much. But I can, I'm because I love it. I love, but what I'm, I think one of the things I'm most grabbing onto is you, you described yourself there as, I'm a fringe act till I die, and I'm a fringe act.

I love the fringes generally and our ones specifically. Yeah. And I think that I'm sort of, I'm teetering on the edge of a kind of dissolving into a reverie about how great the fringe was this year and I had some wonderful moments of, like, connection with people who, like, now that I'm kind of an older fringe act, and there are people now, particularly through the podcast, there were a couple of acts, a handful of acts who were like excited to, you'll have had this, people are excited to see you there because you mean something to them or was the podcasted or what have you. And there were so many, like,

like getting older within it and going, God, isn't this lovely being like, um, it being, I don't know, there's just, there's lots of, lots of really positive things there. I don't want to get lost in that reverie too much. I want to. It's so nice. It's nice. It is nice. It is nice. It's also that reminder. The audience want to have a good time. And if the audience decide that they don't want to have a good time, if people come in with bad faith, that's okay. Just wash it off. It doesn't matter.

How are you at washing it off? How are you at, like, are you better at washing it off? Are you grounded enough in your, in like the big, like, how much of the, the big archetypal mythic stuff, this is my art and I am of it? How much can you keep in, keep that in your head and in your body when you are buffeted real time by, this prick doesn't like it? is a shitty review. This is a sneer from someone.

Mind you catchphrase is, what would Yoko Ono do? And it's, you'd do someone this fucking weird, off-piece that would annoy fans of the Beatles. And that's all I think of in my head.

I'm like, what would Yoko Ono do? Do you know what? So, just, like, it's coming back to that thing about backing the work. I made the mistake.

I don't, I don't really care what you think about, like, at the truth of the end day, I don't, really care. If you like me, wicked. If you don't like me, who cares? Loads of people haven't liked me for a long time. I've been making weird work for ages. I can deal with rejections. But a friend during fringe said, oh, there are so much lovely stuff

being said about you on Reddit. I'm not sure if you're on Reddit, a bit like this. This person is a paid agent of deep comedy. You shouldn't go near them. And I don't really know what Reddit is. And so I was like, and I know, I, and I, I know, I found out my ex was in Edinburgh and I was having a real like real pickle and I hadn't been reading any reviews and I thought well you know what if reddit's what the people are like like if this is what like normal people are writing then yeah and I put my name in and Stuart there wasn't a nice things there was lots of horrible things written about me and um and I got really annoyed first of all I then obviously went into like a rabbit hole for about 15 minutes going squirt four

2009 says that my show's overhyped and lacks nuance and the writing is poor. And I was like, who the fuck to squirt Robert for a thousand? And then I had to remind myself, it's a bit like, when you go to a party, you don't focus on the people that you don't fancy. All you care about is the person that you've got a crush on. And if they fancy you, that's all you're looking at. Sure, sure. Why am I focusing on people who I know don't fancy me?

why am I in the club looking at all the guys who evidently think I'm a dinosaur? I focus on the people who think I'm a hot piece of ass. So in my head I sat there and I was like well the skinny thinks I'm a hot piece of ass and loads of my friends who I love

whose work I love think I'm a hot piece of ass why am I giving my energy to these people who don't want to like me and I just suddenly the way you've got to deal with it is you've got to turn it back on you and you've got to talk to yourself like you're your best friend going you know you're being insane and then I just lost it and I started laughing going I can't believe this is not me and then I started reading them all in depth and I thought there's a really good show

that was not that was not the 90 degree turn I was expecting and then I read it and I went you can make a really good performance piece out of this and because then I was like this is really interesting about discourse subjectivity objectivity and the obsession of you know the three bean salad thing of someone a woman puts on Instagram she's going to make a three bean salad here's her ingredients and then people go but what if I don't like three beans what if I want to make four beans

how we're so used to everything just being catered to us that when it's not catered to us we think it's bad and it was really interesting reading these comments predominantly men going it's fascinating that we still live in a society where actually a show that so many women are being resonated with it's like you know when you go into an art

into a library and there's the women's fiction section as if women's fiction is somewhat less or a specialist topic or not taking as seriously and you're like no this is this is top like and you're annoyed because for the first time you're seeing something that isn't totally catered to you and actually isn't just being catered to you it's catered to everyone anyone who's felt grief um you know or been in something they felt like they couldn't get out of, but the amount of women who emailed me after woman on the edge

who told me that their husbands couldn't talk to them after the man on the edge opera or got angry after man on the edge opera or have started treating them nicer. And I'm going, you don't like my it, but it's made you feel something. And the man on the edge opera is Bufon.

And the goal of Bufon. Can you explain what that is? I know what that is, So Bufon is like the dark clown. And the goal is the Bufon dresses up as the king and puts on a performance to the king and the king's laughing thinking it's really funny. But then the king's like, ha ha ha, but this isn't really me.

And the Bufon is the king's going, no, no, I am the king. And then the king laughs and laughs and laughs. But realizes everyone else is laughing and goes, ha ha ha. And the king goes home and looks at himself in the mirror for the first time and sees what he actually looks like and kills himself. and with the man on the edge opera I want everyone to laugh but then I want all the men to realize

oh my girlfriend or my wife is really laughing she's really really laughing wait a minute and then they go home and then they look at the mirror and they go I've done that I need to change like sometimes the show

I'm not always there I'm not the show isn't the show is incredibly funny but the laughs are different types for different I want like I remember the best piece of criticism I ever received was Steve Bennett once wrote in 2015 2016 for Pelican he said the show was really funny in retrospect which he then funnily enough re-quoted in his review of me this year and I was like that's really great because I don't want to just be something that you've watched and then leave and have dinner and forget

about the show if you hated my show I want my show to be the only thing you talk about at dinner or I want my show to be the thing that you're still debating with about why you loved it or why you didn't like it or why you liked it and going that matters, that's exciting to me so yeah so anyway

but like the Reddit thread really opened my mind and I went this is really powerful this is really useful actually I could like this is something really interesting and obviously that sounds mad and does it sound healthy possible not, but then also, you know, you don't show your scars, not your wounds. You only deal with material if you think you've got the skin thick enough to play with it. I wonder whether you, it seems

to me like you as the artist can go through life, having experiences, seeing a thing, whether it be a Reddit thread or a sunset or whatever it is, and go, oh, this is good. And then you have the opportunity if it strikes you or hurts you somehow, you as an artist get to sort of put on a monocle or a jeweller's loop and go, oh, now I shall look at this through my business eye, and this is material. Yeah. Do you mean?

It kind of gives you an opportunity to transform negative, painful stuff, and to go, oh, this, I'm having a feeling here. I can use this and create something. Well, I think we have to be, because it's the only way we can protect ourselves, because we're not meant to be in this much of the public eye. Do you know what I mean? Like, we're not meant to be viewed like this.

like I think if we've been performers in the 70s or 60s or 80s, we would have, I mean, you know, I probably would have had more dodgy green room experience as being a woman with big tits and big bum, but you know what I mean? Like I probably, we would have been able to just have, make way more exciting work. But like, we're so, and like, we're so critiqued in every single way,

the parasycial relationship, the way everyone has access to us, the way anyone can share an opinion. Like, you can access me on Instagram. You can access me on my internet. Same with you, your website, your email. It's very easy to find out where we live. People recognise us.

Like, it's so, when everybody can at any point give you their feedback, which they do, all the time, the only way you can really digest it into a way that feels healthy for your poor body mentally is to go, I have to, how can I turn this into art? Like, how can I use this? How can I make this creative? of how can I take agency over it? For me, it's always like agency. How can, because it's something I always,

you know, agency matters. All my work is about agency, I think. But I like looking at you and thinking about the work that we could make together. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, in my head, I watch us talking and I'm like, right, I can see a show like that. Like, it would be really fun.

That would be fun. That would be fun. I've been, as we've been talking, and you particularly when you were talking about the different, like I'm, I think as a comic, I am a bit sort of cerebral. I want to explain an idea. I want them to see me, like, sitting with all the IKEA bits of the idea, putting them

together and going, how does this work and how does this work? But what I never think about, I only, along the way, I'll think, oh, it'd be good this time if I did something theatrical. But I never, I never get into that because I think I, because I went to Dartington, like, that's so cool that you went to Dartington. Well, it's so cool. I think that's sick. Have you talked about it much on your podcast?

Not a huge amount. No. And I think the way in which I have talked about is probably the way I was about to talk about it then, which is that I came out of it a bit bruised by what I started to think of as like the endless tombollah of literally anything can be art. I felt a bit like what I'd like to do because I wasn't a stand up when I went there. I was a street performer during like holiday periods. and the rest of it I was like a sort of frustrated shit clown kind of theatre maker actor maybe god knows just kind of headcase really just overwrought headcase and um uh headcase in the sense of like

like you know very headled like what does it mean what does it mean and um and i think i came out of it thinking god wouldn't it be nice to just be standing there and talking instead because i'm surrounded by people who are you know cutting open a rabbit and pulling a poem out of it that they then cover in blood and flick and then use that iconography. Do you mean everything was like was like that? Oh yeah. And I felt like I'd probably drunk too deeply from the well of all the mad ideas, painting with acid and you're dangling from a hook and everything.

I was just like, I get enough of that at home. So I wanted to be a bit kind of simpler. But I think I particularly when you were talking about all of the different, like the breath, you know, seeing like the whole team game to go back to your football analogy, rather than simply the this is my bit of it, these are the words I'd like to say. I am really kind of fascinated by that. This is why I think lots of clowns now,

because clowns had a huge resurgence. Yeah. I think all clowns should do stand up first because you need to learn to die to time. And that's the great thing about stand-up. Sorry, that's incredible. But stand-up teachers discipline in that you're on stage for five minutes.

and if you flop and you bomb, you're off. And a lot of clowns and the thing that I don't like now being a disciplinarian is you've got loads of people going, I want to be a clown. Not I want to be a comedian, I want to be a clown.

Clowning is a genre that we can take. But they come in going, I want to be a clown, and they come on stage doing clown, and they only stay on, and they don't leave until they've gotten a laugh, which means clowns notoriously overrun. And they don't,

and they, because they think they're separate, to stand up, they think they can play the game differently. And you're like, no, we're all fucking equal in this. If you're on the bill, you do five minutes and you get the fuck off. And I feel like they need to do stand up because I'm fed up. Absolutely right. And I think what you've hit on there is a way, I've had this thought in the past about how I have now forgiven all of the vet.

And I never did Goliere. I never kind of like did like a, you know, I've done lots of little shorter workshops and, you know, circus school a million years ago, we did a good bit of kind of Lecoq-type clowning, proto-Golier cloning, I suppose. But I can now forgive a lot of those tutors for how horrendous they are in telling you that this isn't working.

I mean, even Fraser Hooper, I don't know if you've ever worked with Fraser or has seen his work, but he is one of the warmest, gentlest clown teachers. But even he would like, you'd be doing a thing and he'd start going,

Nia, if it wasn't funny. And now, as an older person who's seen a lot of shit, self-indulgent, long-winded, failing clowning, oh my God you can understand why they all want to start hitting you with sticks. Get the fuck off. Off for something.

No, try again. No, get off. Piss off. Piss off. Fuck off. When someone sends me a running lauder and they see all the clowns, I'm like, put me on first. Put me on first. I'll watch.

I'll watch and enjoy. But please, like, I love you all. I love you all. But if you're going to go over, I'm going to, I'm going to kill. I'm going to kill again. What was the thing that you were leading into before I interrupted? Well, I wanted to talk about directing because I, and I want to talk a little bit about teaching and what you teach and whether there's like a kind of core value or a core precept that you try and instill with people. And I think directing as well, I've always, my pet thought on directing is like how impossibly difficult it is to help someone be more like what they want to be rather than a bad director making someone more like what they, the bad director, want to see.

and I was particularly intrigued as a sort of kick-off question on this was what does this mean, Elf? If you would like to include Elf in your D-YCP grant application, please read her directing page first before inquiring. That's on your website. And I thought, what's that? So basically that's an arts council incentive where artists can get money to develop their craft.

So if they want to pursue something, so a lot of emerging artists might go, I want to pursue like a show that explores my identity growing up in this area. I'd like to use clowning in that. And they put their budget like £250 towards a couple of sessions with. And then they have to set the name of the artist. And I get loads of young artists wanting to do clowning workshops. Hey, can I put you down on my grant application?

Yeah. And I just say that to save time. And it's always funny because I've never got Arts Council funding. God, I've tried. And I've gotten loads of funding through everyone else getting funding to work with me. And then I'm a bit like, but I would quite like my own funding is so I don't have to teach all the time. Yes. Like, the reason I teach all the time is so I can make my work.

Like, it's so funny. People always go, why don't you go on holiday? And I'm like, I can't. You know, directing is funny. It's a really interesting thing. Like it depends on like what the artist like needs. Whether it's movement direction, like their help working out their body. And then you have to be a bit more choreographic with it.

Or to be honest, when it's with comedians or stand-ups, it's often they just need space to feel confident and safe to grow. Like the goal I would say you're not, because in a theatre turn, a director is in charge and says you go here, you go here, you go here. I don't stand, directing and stand up, I don't really think you should do that. I don't think you can.

It has to be the artist's own individual work. But you can come in and be more, I see it sometimes being a bit like a parent or being like a manager, like a sports manager, going, look, you're incredibly good when you do this, but you're not particularly strong in this idea. Like Wayne McGregor, who's a choreographer, he always talks about, he uses AI a lot at the moment.

He's very interesting, but he uses AI to model and he films his dances moving and then uses the AI to assess where they don't move their body like they favour their left more than their right so that they can then be pushed to move their body in ways that their muscle memory hasn't

you know we all get stuck in our natural rhythms and habits so I find that interesting watching a performer going oh you know how you always favour these particular rhythms or you go into this angle I think for your next leveling up why don't we push more into this dimension or when I work with an artist, I just get them to talk for about half an hour on stage and I just record it and I listen.

And I go, it's interesting, these motifs keep coming up. This really matters to you. Do you think the show's actually, you say it's about this? But have you considered that maybe, and just guiding them in that way? And with artists who've become famous online who then go into live work, who don't actually have the experience of performing on stage,

because they're all different athletes like online comics I would describe as like a hundred metre sprinters they're very good at landing it great time something that I couldn't do

yet but I'm a marathon runner so I go right okay so what we need to do is we actually need to pace a little bit like this we don't shoot all our load at the start because you're going to get a stitch so let's like reframe it

so it's often it just depends each to their own. But I am, I mean, I get a lot of inquiries about directing. I do, and I'm now more reticent about who I go with because it's like, are you being led here because you like me? Or is it because someone in your team has said, oh, you should go without? Because I want you to, if you've not seen me perform,

I'm always a bit like, you know, I would never approach someone who I've never seen live to work with me. that would be insane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think too many people in our benefit, it's like with clown teachers, or any type of teacher, see what they've done,

see what work they've done, before you train with them. Because there are some people, I think, especially post-Golier and now Philippe's passed away, are monetizing without the skill set. And actually, there's one thing that's incredibly dangerous. It's a bad teacher. Because you can, you can traumatise a mind.

And people are so, like, with teaching, I take, yeah, when people are in my rehearsal room, when I'm teaching a workshop, and I've talked for a while, I've gotten better and better, and I'm always trying to learn. People are there for so many different reasons. And you really, you have to read the person. You don't read, you teach the individual. You have to learn, like, and you direct what they need. not what they think they need or what you think they need.

You just watch them. Most of it is watching and listening to their breath and like, and what they don't say, not what they say, but what they don't say. Yeah, I take it, you know, I love it. Like, I really love it. And I think it's unfortunate that we live in a time where there's not enough spaces for artists to just get to enjoy learning. Have you heard of the intermediate,

Have you heard of this? This is a thing in Belgium, maybe France as well, certainly in Belgium, where once you've done a certain amount of art, the government goes, oh, you're officially an artist, we're going to give you a grant for the rest of your life now because you're an artist. Oh, bloody hell, someone give someone, give me that, please. And they're heartbreaking. But that exists. And that exists. And here we are. It's like being a circus performer from the UK and then going to Australia where they fund search.

Yeah, oh my God. They're like, oh, this is a good thing. Let's put money into it because we want to be world-class at it. Yeah. And you're just going to go, cricky. Oh, my God. How nice. That's, yeah. What could, if there are any eccentric millionaires listening to this, what could, or other, or eccentric, if there are any people who have power or opportunity or resources that you don't have, who would be most useful to get in touch with you? This, I'm not promising. this, there's a lot of interesting people that listen to it. But as a thought experiment, what, how could someone help? If anyone's got an arts venue that could help me, I would like the thing, because I would like to teach, I love teaching and not all different like price boundaries, but I'd love to have my own space so I could teach properly. And I want to teach young people. I really want to work more with young people and teach, get young people into clowning. I was thinking of doing some more sessions like a career in the arts, I thought would be quite

useful because I think I'm quite a good reference point because the reality is I work all the time. I'm incredibly successful but people seem to have a very flawed idea of the finances. I think a lot of people seem to think I live in a huge house. I make millions. I'm like no like I pay tax. I'm doing well for a comedian but like I don't own a house. I'm still on renting and I work constantly but I think I'm quite a good honest example of what being a career fringe artist looks like especially if you don't as a comedian end up doing. loads of tele or getting a radio show or whatever you know or you're not doing corporates i don't make i don't do corporate um um i so i my dream is in 202027 i'd like to be able to have like

a full time space where i can teach workshops and kind of do like moving into the what philippe had philippe had a studio so he could teach he could teach his own methodology which i've developed and i've been working on mine i'd like to be able to do that and be useful um and my next show is all about planes so I'm trying to I want to save up to learn to fly a plane that's the next the next show I want to make a children's clown show or theatre show about the beauty of maths and comedy and how they balance I'm interested in that and I want to make a show about maths and about flight and our relationship to falling really interested about our relationship to flight and and I suppose an environmental element of it is you know turbulence is going to get worse

And it's interesting. Turbulance is the least dangerous aspect of flying in a plane. But it's the part everyone's frightened of. And I find that really interesting about... It should be the geese. The geese are the most... That's the most dangerous come out of nowhere game over. Yeah.

No one's scared of geese. So listen, to wrap up, your show is going to New York. You're going to go and do it in New York. I think I'm in New York when you get to New York. Oh, my God. Can we go and have pizza and go, hey, I'm a whack in here? Can we bump into each other and go I'm walking in it? That would be lovely, thank you.

I want to have one of those sausage breads. You know, with the dog, the dog bread. Oh yeah, make me one with everything. One of these guys, yes. Tell me, I want to go to Central Park and see the guy that's been running there for years, dropping crumbs so that squirrels will follow him as a long-term practical joke. I want to assess whether this is true or not. Okay, well, let's go and do that.

Let's hunt the squirrel guy. So, what are the circumstances if you, going to New York? How come you're going to New York? What are you doing with it? What happens after there? What's the next thing for this show? Is that the conclusion of this show? Do you presumably you just, you continue to do this show for the rest of your life. We're doing Soho Warhamstone next January. Oh yeah. The big room and we're, we're getting, we might be getting some bigger props. Nice. Nice. Without hinting anything. Yes. Lovely. Lovely. Very good. Bigger mind High heels, great.

Bigger mimeed high hills. I'm going to be fucking huge. We really can afford to a big mine. So we're doing the Soho, Waltonstone, which is... Amazing. Pretty mad, especially for an artist that's not big on social media, hasn't really been on telly. I'm pretty stoked with doing Walton's Stowe.

That's sick. They, Arnold, from Westbeth, they came and saw me last year. They saw Raven. So originally they were like, we want to bring Raven out to New York. And so I got my visa. got my 01 visa, which, and so it's all been in the long run planning. And then in the summer,

they were like, well, if we think woman on the edge is going to be good, like, and you feel confident about it, why don't we take women on the edge? And I was like, guys, I'm going to be honest, I really don't, I'm going to be, I think woman on the edge might just do fine, like, so maybe Raven. And they were like, let's just have faith that woman on the edge will do well. Why don't we just bring, it'll be logical to bring a woman on the edge. And I was like, okay. And I was just like, so upset going, God, you know, Raven's definitely going to be a hit. And so I think everyone's quite relieved. We did women on the edge rather than the Raven.

Because Raven's so messy and trying to get watermelons in November as a nightmare. But, yeah, so we're taking a woman on the edge for a month at the Soho Playhouse. Incredible. Very lucky as well because the Darren, who programmed Soho Playhouse, saw the first work in progress of the show and had seen it and then offered programming. really liked the whip, which is a lovely sign. Yeah, and then there, and then I'm back end of October. And then I think I would quite like to have a holiday. I'd like a holiday.

I'd quite like to get a boyfriend. I think that's my to do list. I'd quite like to go on dates. But a whole time during Edinburgh, I was really hoping for romance, Stuart. I was trying so hard to have a bit of romance. You mentioned it to me when I saw you at the beginning of the festival. I walked around and I'd walk around and I'd, And then someone would go, hey, and I'd be like, oh, hello.

And then I expect them to say something like, oh, you're ever so pretty. And I'd have like, really? But instead they were like, are you doing any clown courses soon? And I'm like, no, no. Stop it. Yes, my fees now are a date. My thing. Can you imagine?

Oh, that would be terrible. Outlines just making all these meth data. That's a clown advice. I don't know. That's ethical. I'm slightly jesting. November, I think I kind of like to rest. I'll teach a few workshops.

And then obviously we're doing the show in January. And then I just want to write. I want to write and I want to act. I need to learn how to fly a plane for the next show, I think. Maybe just focus on collaborating and try and be happy. I think, Stuart, I kind of want to be happy. Are you happy? That's traditionally the final question, isn't it?

How happy are you? Are you happy? I think I must be. I must be happy. Mike, Katie Norris said this to me once. She said, I use you as an example of someone who works so hard, but is still incredibly unhappy. Like, it didn't mean in a nasty way, but just like that point of like, you can have so much, you could be doing so well, but like, you're quite, like, I'm a very happy person. I love my friends and my family, but I think, I think most of the time I'm quite, I think I'm quite, yeah, I mean, I'm very, I'm on my own all the time.

Like, you know, I work all the time. I love working, but like, I don't know, at the end of the day, I'm never going to get rid of the, the little girl who was at boarding school who didn't have anyone to play with at the weekend. I think that element, I think that feeling, I think unfortunately always stays with you. And I'm very like,

I love Edinburgh so much. I think it's why it was sad I couldn't go out so much because Edinburgh is the one time I really get to see. It's the time, isn't it? I get to be and see all my friends and like see everyone's shows and feel like I'm actually part of something. And so it was, yeah.

I would like to challenge the idea that you will always have. the loneliness of that little girl. I would just, you said I'll always have that. And if that's a conclusion you've come to, maybe, but I'm just offering a little challenge to that and people are capable of change. Oh, yeah.

People are capable of change. I used to be really bad at mine. So look, no, I am. I think I am happy. I am happy. I'm very happy when I'm with. This is really lovely. And I'm very great.

And I live by, like, I get to see the sea. Look, there's so much beauty in the day. My view is you can spend 23 hours in despair. but there's one hour of the day you can feel the most extreme joy. And that is the day that you, and those are the moments you can remember. So, you know, and those hours when I'm doing my show and, like, doing my job. When you make people happy, that's like, that's a gift. That's why I like teaching. You're useful.

I like being useful, Stu. Elf Lyons, queen of Edinburgh. Thank you, Your Majesty. Doing the most queenly thing. I hope I didn't sound like a bell-end. I hope I sounded okay. So that was Elf, glorious. Don't miss it.

If you're in New York, it's been extended at the Soho Playhouse through the 8th of November. And if you're anywhere near or can get to the Soho Theatre, at Walthamstow, in January she's going to be on there, and it will sell out. It's a massive room,

and it'll be a wonderful thing to be a part of. So find all the info and more at elf lions.com. All of the extras available to you if you're in the Insiders Club or wish to join with the minimum £3 a month donation at patreon.com.com. Pod. Include Elf on Learning to Clown at Golié. We'll talk about the pressure on new artists to prove they deserve to be there.

And we will find out some interesting technical stuff on lip syncing, which is a part of the show, the Women on the Edge, and we'll find out a bit more about why she does that on stage, the creative benefits to one's own mental health. Find out how to see me live at Stuartgoldsmith.com slash comedy. Someone emailed me today and said, thank you for the show in Cardiff. I cried tears of joy.

Now, if that isn't a bloody nomination, I don't know what is. So we're in Maidenhead, Norden Farm, 16th of October, but it's sold out, but maybe there are returns. Who knows, guys? Foundry in Sheffield on 6th November, Glee Club Birmingham on the 13th November. Sorry, these days, I believe we say Birmingham Glee on the 13th November. And then, of course, the big one at Bristol, Old Vic, on the 18th November. And then I lie down for about two minutes before I go and do a panel at Wee the Curies in Bristol later that day. but I think that is private.

It's not secret. It's just, I don't think it's for any old Herbert. Thank you to Susie, etc, as Callum has put very deferencely. Thanks to Susie Lewis for the logging. Callum Morin has been your evil producer, and the music was by Rob Smouton, and the title was by Asher Trelevin, and there's someone else I forgot to thank.

Maybe it's me. Maybe it's all of us. Thank you to our insider producers. Luke Hacker, Roger Spiller, I Cave, Dave, Keith Simmons, Sam, Alan, Jay Lucas, Gary McLean, Chris Swarbrick, Dave McHroll, Paul, Swaddle, Alex Wormel and James Burry, and it's been lovely to see a lot of you at the shows. And a great big thank you to our two special insider executive producers, Neil nearly sold out Peters and Andrew only really restricted room available, Denit, and to the super secret one as well. Now, I am well overdue at an Edinburgh slash tour post-amble, so let's do that after this noise. But if you're done, then you're done, and please try and retain a consistent sense.

of self until we speak again. But if you're sticking around, here's how it all went down. Okay, then. So, I feel like I've got loads. Where did I even put my tea? Hang on, I'm going to get my tea. So, thinking back to the Edinburgh Festival, I always, whenever I need to think of something that sounds like it might be epic, I always want to introduce it and frequently pinch this joke from Terry Pratchett. Bright was the morning and high my heart when I set out to the Edinburgh Festival. So what happened was I had a tricky first 48 hours. The first show was good and it was really good. But I hadn't prepared myself psychically for Edinburgh.

I've done a lot. I've done a lot of festivals. This might have been number 32. Certainly it's like full hour show 10 or 11 or 12, God knows. And in previous Edinburgh's, my entire year has been leading up to Edinburgh. That was only slightly the case. time. Most other times, almost every other time I've done the whole run. And so very new to be jumping in halfway through doing the final two weeks of the fringe because the, and I think the

effect that had on me was that there's something about enduring it all. There's something about being in the trenches that allows you to survive the trenches. And when you're only there for a bit, there's a lot of the tough stuff without that feeling of like, hey, we're all in there together. I didn't like turning up halfway. And also, I think specifically with this, subject matter, shows another show about the climate. Yes, another climate comedy show, imagine that. There is a kind of an extra responsibility that you have to the audience to make sure that it's positive and upbeat. Now, obviously, you know, because it's like doing a show about, it's like doing a show about war or torture or something really sad.

not necessarily death, but it's like a bit less usual than that. Because there is this thing whereby there are different metrics. How well did the show go? How on it was I? How much did they laugh? How much did they listen? How much did they take in? And that's kind of, it's newer territory for me.

So the first one was good but didn't bang. And then I had this incredibly weird experience where I had, because I had, I've done, in previous Edinburgh, as I've done all my getting ready and preparing myself to not read reviews and all of that kind of stuff. Whereas now I felt like that had been so successful, I was like, I'm over that. So I read some reviews. I opened with two five-star reviews, one of which doesn't count because it was a London preview the day before Edinburgh, and that doesn't count in Comedy.com at UK's wrap-ups. That's annoying, but understandable.

And then I got a sort of shitty-ish review from someone else. And then I kind of went, oh, God, the dream has just gone pop. And all of those things, which I would counsel a newer, younger comedian to watch out for, all suddenly happened to me. I was like, I've spent the last year plowing my own furrow, having a brilliant time, feeling like I am free from desire and I've got my trumbelisse, and I'm free from envy and I'm free from comparison and all of those things. I'm just not in it anymore, man, I'm doing my own thing. And then suddenly I'm surrounded by people who've been there for two weeks,

have got colossal posters with a galaxy of stars. And I will happily, I will grudgingly, not happily, admit that I got fished back in as if I were the new kid. And I had a bit of a wobble. I had a dodgy review that sort of said a thing I disagreed with. And I was like, well, it's not that. And then, and I had a wobble. And I did a little insiders, like a stew and a, like a little kind of private message video to the insiders, that made a bunch of you, bless you, get in touch with me and go, hey man, don't worry, it's going to be all right.

but, you know, I kind of wanted to be honest to go, this is where I'm at. So I had a bit of a wobble. Then, of course, I got my shit together, the show picked up, it started crushing. I had a really, really great time. I saw, oh my God, I don't know if I've mentioned this on the show. I can't have mentioned this on the show, because this is the first postamble for a while. Two of the best shows I saw, Bella Hull and Sam Ely is Basil Crumwick, I just love their shows to pieces.

And then afterwards, those performers said words to the effect of, I'm so glad you saw it. I've been listening to this podcast since I was an embryo. And that really meant something to me. It was so nice to go, oh, I've helped brilliant people be brilliant. So that picked me right back up. I finally did ACMS, and that was wonderful. Really, really enjoyed that.

And did a bunch of stuff. Oh, my God. I was in Stamptown. I guessed it in Stamptown for the first time since their Netflix special came out. You've got to watch that. Zach Zucker's coming back on the show to talk all about. that and the effect it's had and how much money it cost him. And being part of that show and seeing the energy of Stamptown backstage as they literally make the show up as they go. They're all on

like an Instagram group messaging each other from different sides of the venue going, what about if I just jump in now with my pants on my head or whatever? And just how much they embrace failure and mistakes and genuine, like authentic risk. It's just such a dream gig. And so to be, have a lovely gig there. I'll tell you more about it when Zach comes back on the show, but just to be at the end of it with their guest spot, Jean-Marco Sarasi, he's been on the show, fantastic, and been on the pod and brilliant, brilliant act. And like me and him trying to copy the choreography that everyone does at the end for the curtain-call sort of Chiravari thing at the end. It was just so memorable and brilliant. In the second half, the family came up and that was a joy.

I took the boys to see loads of stuff. I took the girls to see loads of stuff. We all love Ted Hill. Ted's coming on the show. Really looking forward to that. My daughter didn't like all the loud bangs, but to be fair, it was a science show, and I'm an idiot for not checking how many loud bangs they were going to be. And then I took the boys to see Ted's solo. I just saw so much incredible stuff. Underground Monkshow blew my head off like prestige clouding, man. And I saw such wonderful Frankie McNair was brilliant. Like I'm going to feel bad now because I'll start listing them and then feeling bad that I haven't listed other people, but I kind of posted about it at the time. And I came away feeling so infused and invigorated and full of beans. It was worth the dodgy beginning for which I only have myself to blame. So thank you. It all came good in the end. Now, deeper stuff. I was whilst also doing Canary during the day,

I was running around doing small sets running in a potential TV thing that may happen. They've said yes, but there's no date. Who knows? It could be a big one. And I was, I've got to do the emotional, it's like a base jump. I've got to jump off the building of I'm doing comedy and then open my parachute of actually it's about the climate immediately. It's a five minute set in which I need to be hilarious immediately because it's a celly set and I've got to, I want to say something genuinely meaningful about the climate for potentially a big audience. And I couldn't work out how to do it and I was running around town bombing five minute sets. It's so hard. It's so hard to be funny about the climate immediately. When I did spoilers, I had 15 minutes of trust me, I'm a comedian. When I did Canary,

I had seven or eight minutes of it, but before I got into climate, but it's probably the best routine I've ever written. So it's, it's, um, doing it in five minutes. God, it's hard. Then after the, after that, I went to New York Climate Week and had an incredible experience there. I watched Al Gore speak from about three meters away. It was fabulous. I was part of a, uh, uh, Max Boykhoff's amazing climate comedy cohort. I met Genevieve Gunther, who's the author of the Language of Climate Policy, which is one of my very favorite climate books. And I narrowly missed meeting actual Elmo by about half an hour. God damn you, Goldstein. And something else, something else went grasspoke at the fucking UN. I spoke at the UN. What a week. It's all been

great. Everything's great. And then I finished by doing a little five-minute spot at Top Secret New York. Lovely club. What a homecoming to walk in there and go, oh it's just like home and then i struggled there doing my five minute telly spot and um so that that has been a little kind of thorn in my side throughout i'm really hoping this story has a positive end whereby we do it and it goes great and this becomes an interesting thing to look back on but it's hard it's hard putting it together they've not it has worked it's just that getting it robust and reliable like your your competition five and if your competition five is only working half the time it's like what am I doing? So I've got new plans. I've tried it again since in a different way. It went much

better. And it's, it maybe needs to be three minutes of trust me on my comedian and then two devastating bangers about the climate, but we'll see. So that has been pretty full on. In the meantime, the tour has been wonderful. I'll be, I'll be honest with you. When I booked in the tour, it was like, I guess I'll do a tour to sort of to see will people come and see it. I want to, yeah, okay, I guess I'll do a tour. I wasn't like absolutely hungry to do it. it. And as soon as I did that first date, where were me? Oh, where were me? Where were me? In Cambridge and just getting on stage and going, oh, I can do two hours. Not in my sleep, but I can do two hours working with my support act, Mark Sarah. God, I'll never go back to not

having a support act. If you're touring on a small scale and you don't feel you can afford a support act, I think you should get a support act. I mean, I will say Mark is a dear friend of mine, someone I've been working with on his stand-up and kind of coaching him, and he's sort of driver-minded and not exactly tour manager, but just hang and pal. And it makes all the difference to touring. I think, in fact, I've been loving the shows. I've been working up new stuff in the second half.

I've been doing that May Martin thing. I remember seeing Maydie this years ago at the Laughing Horse Free Fringe at City Calf. That'll date it. Of leaving, in the interval, I think May was doing it as, people came in, but in the interval leaving people index cards to write questions on and then riffing on those in the second half. That's been glorious. Great for generating material. Great for hearing what people are interested in and want to hear me talk about. And puts me on the front foot as well. It was very exciting thing to do it. All of those things have been wonderful, but I honestly think

just reflecting on it now with four dates left, the presence of my support act friend has made it so different. It's just not lonely. anymore. God, touring. Toring was lonely. I've done what, four tours doing two hours at an interval on my own. And I will never go back, I tell you. And so that's been great fun. I think of the tours, Manchester has probably been my favourite. Thank you to everyone at the Fairfield Social Club at a lovely time and everyone that looked after us there. That audience was so, that was the one where I felt like it started to feel like, as well as a performance in its own right, I started to feel like, oh yeah, I'm getting the shape of, there's elements of this which feel like a dress

rehearsal for the old Vic, which let's not forget is 500 and something seats. So that's got to be good. But, um, uh, and we're taping it. So it's really got to be the best one. But I started to feel in Manchester like I was going, this is it. This is the thing. This is the thing. And hey, just while I remember the, I very often forgetting these to link back to elements of the show, elements of the the podcast, the conversation you've just listened to. That thing that Elf said to me, either towards the end of the episode or on, I think it was part of her answer to,

Are You Happy? She said, have I got worries or have I just got things that I need to do? I think that's reprogrammed. My brain, here we are, a month later after the, a month after recording it.

And I think it's reprogram my brain. I have, I think a couple of things, you know, I get chronic anxiety before I interview people on this podcast. which I know is the most hopeless, insane, illogical thing ever, very similar to when I was doing the infinite sofa. And it was my show with my collaborators and my audience and friends. And it was just super, and my David Horr. I own him.

And it was everything about it was set up for me to have a wonderful time. And I would get chronic anxiety. It would ruin my Sunday night's sleep before we taped on a Monday. It's that kind of a thing. But talking to Elf about do I have worries or do I just have things to do, And I will say, fabulous Liz, my incredible EMDR person with whom I've worked hard and spent a lot of money. That may also be something to do with it. But I think, and do you know what, this is coming back to the Edinburgh run and the tour,

I am talking on stage about a little bit about EMDR therapy, about the car accident I had when I was 11, and how much it changed my view of what the world is, and how I never knew that it had changed my view of what the world is. and led to me experiencing hypervigilance for my entire life. And I will say there was an element. It reminded me of 2011 when I did a show about anxiety called Another Lovely Crisis,

of which no recording exists heartbreakingly. They were definitely good bits. But when I wrote that show, writing about feeling anxious made me anxious. It's a very hard show to write. I think inhabiting the kind of car crash stuff and the hypervigilance stuff during the Edinburgh run of Canary contributed to me having a bit of a wobble.

And I didn't realise that. I'm doing a show about how I hadn't realised at the time I was feeling a bit weird. And I didn't realise at the time that I was feeling a bit weird. So those things all seem to have come together very neatly now and I'm in a position now where I don't have much to worry about. All I'm worrying about is whether or not I can remember the 10-minute TED talk that I am going to deliver in.

San Francisco tomorrow, in three days, but I'm leaving tomorrow, in front of luminaries such as Al Gore. And I'm hoping to address him as ladies and gentlefolk. Al, your inconvenience. Maybe that's a bad idea. I can't just open with Al, but I need them to know I'm talking about him. Also, don't open with the new gears, Stu. Maybe if it goes well, say that at the end. Thank you, ladies and gentlefolk and your inconvenience. Vice President Gore. Maybe. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe don't do it. Maybe don't do it. Maybe don't put this bit out. Maybe leave this bit, but don't do it. Who knows? But so what I'm nervous about, normally, whenever I fly to America,

I've got some chronic anxiety to feel about some podcasts or something on TV or a brand new thing I've never done before, like a workshop I need to lead, those kind of things. This time, all I need to worry about is whether I can remember 10 minutes worth of words. And I'm going to go and run that now whilst looking at the scary TED Talk timer. They send you the timer. It's like a website with the clock on it so that you're used to what the clock looks like.

And probably everyone else has been like, oh, that's handy. Whereas I'm like, all of the rehearsal must be done in front of the glowing eye of the TED clock. So I'm going to go and do that now. Lovely to talk to you. Lovely to catch up. I know I'm overdue and inside as one of these as well,

but I hope that scratches the itch temporarily at least. And then the other fun thing is that as you'll know on my Live of the Apollo set, I did a bit about not flying business class in which I vowed to decline business class. And that was an easy vow to keep because I very rarely offered business class. It's 11 hours and 10 minutes from Heathrow to San Francisco and they offered me business class. And I fucking declined it. Not for no reason, but because it's three times worse for the climate because you're, all the stuff's heavier and you take up more space and all the rest of it.

And even though that may be a carbon accounting trick, I don't know, but I've stuck to my guns and, uh, God, it hurts. Bye for now.