The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - James Acaster | Hecklers Welcome (2024): ComCompendium

Episode Date: March 6, 2026

With James Acaster's Hecklers Welcome hitting over 400 cinema screens this weekend - we’re looking back at his 2024 appearance on the show. Originally released in two parts, we go in depth into the creation of the show including:the moment that led to James taking breaking from stand-upwhat it was like touring the show and if James still hates hecklersand I put your questions to James, where we talk all things Ghostbusters, Bo Burnham and *that* Oscars moment.Join the Insiders Club at patreon.com/comcompod where you can instantly get access to an exclusive LIVE Insider's Q&A with James from 2021.👉 Sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok.Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod:✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ Over an houir of exclusive extra content with James✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including weekly-ish Stu&AsPLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Catch Up with James: James Acaster - Cinemagoers Welcome is out now in cinemas, head to www.jamesacasterincinemas.com to find your local venue!Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE including dates in Bristol, London, Manchester, Stoke, Marlborough and Mach! Find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy. Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello there, Stuart Goldsmith here. This is the Comedians Comedian Podcast, and with James Acaster's Hecler's Welcome, hitting over 400 cinema screens this weekend, we are looking back at his 2024 appearance on the show. Originally released in two parts, we go in depth into the creation of this show, including the moment that led to James taking a break from stand-up, what it was like touring the show, and whether or not James still hates Hecklers. If you're an insider, we'll also be releasing the Patreon exclusive Q&A, that took place a few years ago. You can join from only £3 a month at patreon.com.com pod.

So here, without further ado, is James Acaster from 2024. Hello. Hello, Stu. Hey, man. I feel like this is this guy. I'm not used to doing it all with the video stuff, so I kind of get my head in my pants about, like, would we normally be sitting this close in a conversation?

Well, all this sort of stuff, isn't it? It's like, you get used to it as it goes on. but like, like initially like being an open spot and doing podcasts and just something like having a normal chat and then going into your podcast chat and notice of the shift. And that and then with videos it's a bit. I always find the moment when the thing that I hope I'm not doing is when you're at a gig, an open mic or kind of, you know, first five years he's kind of a gig. And you chat, it's in a pub. It's like a mirth control type gig. and then you talk to some bloke who's doing this sound

and he goes, yeah, yeah, I'll introduce you and he goes, well, he's, and he just did the most phenomenal gear shift into that thing. And then I've done that myself at like a kid's party, so I was like, can you make an announcement? And suddenly you go, hi, everybody, and you do a version of yourself. Yeah, which is...

I'm going to start saying you're a genie. That's what you want to do. Just say you're a genie on the podcast, and then that's easy. What, why, why, uh, does that help? Does the, is the genie? distinct from you distinct from performing you like how many ewes have you got yeah yeah i don't know

like i'm i mean with the podcast i thought and ed always brings it up and makes fun to me for it but i thought well we'll probably do 10 episodes and that'll be it because no one's going to listen to this or you know whatever um so it was just i think at the beginning of what do we think is funny or what do you think it's you know so i was like i want to say i'm a genie and the other two were like dance same I say you're a genie. And then when we did the first intro,

we could have the first intro before the first guest arrived and I said it was a genie in it. I think he had even says in the intro, something like, well, I guess we are running with that then if you're going to, or whatever. It's all, we'll see if James remains a genie for the whole thing. So it wasn't really, just something I thought was funny. Could you stop being a genie?

Adieu in the podcast. Yeah. I would run of the potential future life of the podcast, which is about to embark on a massive sold-out tour. as you continue, you and Ed both continue to live this life where you travel anywhere in the world and are offered the finest of everything, as befits your genie staining.

Thank you. But are you, like, could you, like, what are the kind of the parameters of the podcast? Do you feel it would break a magical thing? Are you inclined to go, I can't be a genie anymore? Would they accept it? Would they accept it?

Because they accept you? Or is it that weird uncharted territory of like, maybe I'd break the magic thing? Some people would accept it. some people wouldn't, I guess, but like, I can't see it being necessary to do that. You know, to just go, kind of go, I'm going to stop saying that because it's such a, it's a fun element of the, for one, it's actually become quite useful because people often have, it's crazy, like for a podcast, which is purely hypothetical and all imaginary anyway, but how people do

want to know, the guests want to know, like, okay, like, do I still get drunk or do I get full? and like am I still allergic to wheat? And you can just say, oh, he's a genie, so we could take that away. And even the most educated of guests, just go, okay, good. And he's a genius, I won't get full. That's good.

And he's a genius. He can like, you know, get my old grandmother's lasagna and he can bring it back and whatever. So I think it's just a nice thing to have in the podcast. And then also, I really like the running things. on the podcast of like whenever someone could you know every and again someone will comment on the genie's entrance and they you know we have to put them in an improv kind of situation where they got to describe it to the listener and that's really fun and so yeah and also because it's not really

it's not like I'm being a genie for the whole thing really yeah fair a lot of the time there's a guest who really wants to seriously talk about food and you know and like important issues I don't just go like well I could make them go away or whatever, like, I do just listen like a normal person. And a lot of the time, just be myself and then you kind of switch it and out of. There is something really lovely about the fact that that was a whim that's become a core element of a show. Like there's something that's quite, that's whatever less crap way of saying, organic is. Did I mean that, like, it's got that daffy quality that you manage really well?

And are there any downsides while we're on off? Are there any downsides at all to an incredible show, which is massively famous, that means anywhere in the world, people in restaurants recognize you and want to give you the best stuff? Not, not any actual downsides that are worth legitimately complaining about at all. No, no, nothing. Like, I remember once being somewhere, I went somewhere for lunch. It was like 12 and I was like, I'm going to go in here, just going to get a small lunch because, you know, I've ate way too much shit yesterday. I just get some small healthy plates here. And they sent over loads of extra stuff that I hadn't asked for

because they know the podcast. And I was in my head like, the fuck's so good. And I was like, now, come on, you can't complain about this. You really love this restaurant.

I bet this is delicious. And yeah, it's lunch. And you're like, guys, it's fucking midday. I'm eating all this shit. But like,

I was like, no, it's nice. And, and yeah, if this is what you're complaining about now in life, then what a life so yeah

I'm fine with it and what are your expectations of the tour you've done live ones before yeah but these are monster rooms yeah I mean

just really looking forward to it like the the ones we did at South Bank Centre the audience has become another kind of guest or person on the podcast it's like an entity that can respond to the

guest's choices so I think we had it is he's certainly choose Thai Red Curry and then we got to see in the audience like who prefers Thai Red Curry and all that stuff which I love like so many people

I guess it's very easy to make fun of podcasts and how like you know just talking about trivial shit like it's important I love talking about trivial shit like it's important and I love that like especially with food and it's great to have a room for the people who also just enjoy

and they know it's not just tribut it is important and Thai Green Curry is better than Thai red curry. But then tied red curry with duck. Actually, that is better. I would rather have a Thai red curry with duck than Thai green curry. And then you get to think about food. So like, and now they'll boo other people's choices if they don't like a certain choice

or they'll applaud it. That was really fun on South Bank. So I'm looking forward to that on the tour and having, like, getting those reactions live to people's food choices and opinions on food. I think an element of. this conversation will, because of the nature of the show, because of Hekler's Welcome, which I saw last night, and obviously loved, and we talked about that, we'll talk more about it. That's me doing a podcast to think. So it doesn't look like, like, well, heck is welcome, dot, dot, dot.

I'm also leading forwards more. I'm trying to sort of notice myself doing kind of unnatural things that I'm doing, because I'm, you know, obviously hundreds and hundreds of hours of interview experience, far less a bit in front of the camera. So I'm like, God, I mean, you're self-contractual. It's really annoying. But also, like, we're both people who will self-analyze out loud. Oh, Christ, or by... As is proven by our text yesterday on our WhatsApp, when both of us noticed the other was typing,

so then wrote about how the other was typing, sent that at the same time. It realized we're both doing this kind of like, oh, I'm going to do. I all met her on the fact that the other person's typing, but we were both doing it. Oh, God. And you said, what did you say?

I think I said, Jesus Christ, or fuck sake. I said, oh, I got my... Easy, lads. one of them, yeah. Yeah, yeah, come on, last. That was, it was a very beautiful moment. And what I was going to say was, an element of this interview will cover the fact of why you do stand up or why you still do stand up and your relationship to it.

The previous show was kind of therapy inflected. It was a sort of an emotional journey and a response to a therapeutic journey. This show is sort of, I think, in some ways, a sort of a triumph. and it's like a celebration of a, if not a conclusion of a therapy journey, then certainly of having learned some fucking great stuff about yourself, accepted it and felt good about it. One of the questions, I've got a ton of audience questions for later on, and one of them or a couple of them are to do with this idea of like,

if he hates stand-up so much, why does he still do it? Which I'm sure you've fielded before, and we can talk about that, but it just occurs to me while we're on off-menu, that more than most things, I mean, more than your, existing body of work, your books, all the rest of it, off menu, sort of gives you the opportunity to perform on your own terms with no pressure, without having to write anything. It's one of those perfect kind of podcast systems where you're like, oh, the fact that that has been massively successful out of, I don't know, other podcasts or stuff you've tried, the fact that that has

become like a global phenomenon, presumably, will you want to have, well, you want to give yourself a break from stand-up, you could just go, I could just be the off-menu guy forever, and it would be incredible. And you'd be loaded as fuck, your words, loaded to fuck, your words. I remember, I enjoyed that. And you'd be able to perform with your friend in front of audiences who cherish you and not prepare anything and not feel bad. And presume, as we've said, there's no downside of any of that. So it's just quite interesting to me that, like, if whoever comedian was here and it seemed like, oh, they have got a complicated relationship. with stand-up and one of the questions is maybe I don't want to do it anymore.

You more than most have got like, you could literally just do that instead. Yeah, and that's one of the things that like, yeah, definitely realized writing and performing this show was like, this isn't, I don't want them to think that there are any stakes here, really, because they aren't anymore. So I don't want them to feel bad for me or anything like that. It's just, this is about, like, I've got a. I've got to be better and improve and stop being a dick. Because I can just stop doing this whenever I want to stop whinging about it.

Because I am so lucky with this podcast now. And that, you know, there's loads of things that have to align for that to happen. And like a huge one is the people you do it with. And like, you know, just incredibly lucky that Ed and Ben are like so on it. And, you know, I'm probably the worst when it comes to, you know, reading the emails and actually knowing what we're doing. And, yeah, I mean, mean, it does mean that we get to be funny on our own terms, talk about something we really

like. Like, every day there was something, like me and you were talking about coffee before this and how much I love coffee at the minute. And when I am thinking about that sort of stuff in my day-to-day life, I kind of think, oh, how lucky I am that I get to do something about food that celebrates that part of my personality in my life and that passion. And I get to sit down with, like, my friend who I, you know, connect with over food the most more than anyone

and get to talk about it with him and different guests. And it just feels yeah, ridiculously fortunate. And with that first episode that we did just land on a whole bunch of things that have stuck and that's still part of the podcast. So like, yeah, like you do think, okay, that's there now. And while that continues to be there, because who knows, you know, it might not last forever. It might be more short-lived than we want to.

it to be you just don't know but at the minute it means that with anything else i can just choose if i want to do it or not and i don't have to go yeah okay yeah i'll be on that show i do that thing is that is presumably people perhaps you guys perhaps other people have approached you where as hey let's put this on tv yeah is that a thing is that a thing i don't know about or maybe is that already happening no nothing's happening um we've we've been approached about it uh and you know the short version is that there's never something that is just never right that what the person wants to do either they were usually obviously don't want to change the format a bit which is fine I think you would have to because otherwise jeanie costume yeah CGI budget would be pretty high but like I think it's just like yeah otherwise if you're doing the same thing on TV as the podcast I think that makes it redundant and then and then you're spreading it to too thin and you're going to lose podcast listeners and neither of them will do very well so you do

do need to change it and do a different format to it and we've got a format that we want to do but it's not glitzy and exciting enough on the page to be able to set you know a lot of production companies other few production companies come up to us and saying we want to do enough menu show here's our idea and it's like something that on the page seems like exciting but we know it wouldn't work. We know that it would be that that show wouldn't be good. I wouldn't want to watch that TV show. Whereas, you know, the kind of food shows I love watching, you know, I grew up watching Man versus Food and Drivers Dining's and Dives and whatever. I don't want to be like those dudes. But like, but like I love the simplicity of just we're going to a local restaurant and we're

getting to know the people there and what their best dishes are. Like that's all our podcast is but a chat. So like, I think that's the thing is that we just never have found someone who wants to make the thing we want to make. And we know what we would want to make as well. But we've talked about making it ourselves. You know, we've got friends, obviously Turtle Canyon, who can make the kind of show that we would want to make. But it would just be about finding the time. But increasingly now, and obviously, you know, I don't need to tell you this because we're here with all this stuff. But doing stuff off your own back just feels like the way to be.

go a lot more. And you do just kind of going, we can do this by ourselves. And it feels silly that we're pitching it to all these people to get it onto TV. When TV, what even is that now? And, you know, more and more, you're like, it just seems like people don't care what platform is on. If it's good, if you make a good thing, they will go there and watch it. So how about we just make sure we make it really good? And then it would do well. So if we've got time, we tried we actually tried to figure out a way of doing it on this tour um on my tour uh you know and and doing a thing where we'd go around filming this idea for the show but um couldn't make it work is you know i would have been absolutely white tower it would have been stupid ever but like

if we can find a way of doing it um we'll do it because i think i think i think it'd be great I think I wonder if an element of that is like there was a time years ago where a few people were interested in a version of the comedian's comedian and what they would say to me what they all boiled down to in the end was can we just have the five minutes where they cry and that was so like I mean that's not fair I just kind of said that a few times I'm kind of reducing a few things it's not entirely fair but that's how that's how it felt like to me and that seemed to be the opposite of what I like doing with it and I just wonder the extent to which you This is a lovely thing whereby with Ben and with Ed, you get to do a thing completely on your own terms. Like it would need to be so good for you to risk that. Yeah. Like the way it's cherished by the audience and all the rest of it. It would need to be so incredible across the board

to be bothered with changing something that already works really well on your own terms. Yeah. Why would you? It would just be a massive shame. And like, I never listen. Ben sends us the edits every time before putting them out. I never listen to them because I know.

that he's aced it, I don't have to listen to it. I know that anything that I said during the record that I think I misspoke there or that joke didn't work or that that sounding stupid, he'll get rid of it. I know it's not going to be in there because he's just so good at knowing what the show should be anything the guest has said, which we think like, actually don't want to put that out. He'll get rid of it. He's not in the business of trying to go viral

because someone said something slightly un-PC, even if it doesn't represent them. You know, like he'll get rid of that. And so like all of that is great. And I've never had that before with something where you're just like, I know that the person who's doing all the technical stuff here, they're going to nail it so I don't even have to worry. All I have to do is this bit. So it would seem silly to go, let's make a TV show with a format that we don't like as much

with people that we don't trust as much and get really, really stressed out and end up there on set with them trying to get us to do things we don't want to do, you know. It's interesting. I think we will probably come back to this idea of the stakes. Like that, like you said, that's an element of the show. What are the stakes now for you? It's completely fascinating to be. Like, you are in this position whereby you get to do what the fuck you want.

And we could talk about temps as well. And, you know, so much of your output now seems to me to be completely, look, does it feel like that? Like everything you do now is on your own terms. you have complete control of the stakes. Are there any elements to the work you do which don't fit into that? I suppose one of the things I'm going in, one of the kind of little kind of mental picture I have

of where I want to be with my various inventions and entrepreneurial things within or adjacent to comedy. I'm sort of aiming at being able to walk around the house in tracky bottoms like a dot-com billionaire. It's like someone, one of those guys in succession, one of the awful people in succession who might buy the thing because he's got infinite money. To sort of design your own life concept,

is that a thing to you? Does that resonate with you? Or does that idea of you being wholly in charge of the stakes? Like, what does that mean to you? Yeah, it's weird because obviously that's the goal, was the goal when I started out. It's like, I just want to be in charge all this and I don't care about being famous

and I care about making stuff that I'm proud of and being able to put it out. and, you know, definitely as an open spot. I was like, most TV is shit. So why would I even want to fucking do that? And, you know, and whatever. And increasingly over the years, I've like, that's changed. And I've wanted to do stuff.

I want to do as much stuff as possible. And then you're kind of like, you're trying to get stuff made and you're being told no. And that feels bad because you feel like you're not good at that. And you lose your confidence. And I still have massive moments of that. And losing. So this feels like a bit of a transitional moment at the minute where I'm getting to do stuff on my own terms and put it out and started doing it independently.

But I'm almost waiting on the results of that and how that goes. At a minute we're recording a audio sitcom and we're making that. It's something that I first pitched in 2014 with, you know, Lindsay Fethner and I pitched it to Radio 4 and got told no. And then we tried to get it away at audible and got told no. and now I'm like you know I've realised during COVID I'm like we can do this ourselves let's fucking just do it

we believe in this idea and then you get to do it you know a lot of people very generously gave money to it on Kickstarter and then you start making it and you're like oh fuck now I found out now I'm going to find out if it's actually good okay oh yeah because it wasn't

confirmed that it was good by a producer to whom you pitched it you were told nah not for us doesn't work we're looking for this sort of stuff right now blah blah and you can do all the kind of stuff like, oh yeah, they don't want to take risks. This is brilliant. You know, they look for this stuff.

They don't want to make this stuff. But at some point, someone's going to come along, make something completely different. Then they'll all just copy that for ages. And while you're right, when you then get to make the thing you want to make, you are like, oh, where's the grown-ups telling me this is rubbish or telling me to rain it in or, yeah, I'm just being allowed to make it. And that's good.

But also, you know, you are waiting for. well, I'll get to release it. You know, stand-up obviously is that over and over again with every show. You know, you don't pitch it to anyone. You start developing it, and then you take it to festivals and on tour, and you find out if it's good or not. And, you know, sometimes you go through that every single night, and you're almost starting up again.

But, like, so, yeah, it's, I feel I'm just getting used to it now. I'm getting used to, okay, I get to make these things, but I'm still very, I'm not. as confident as I want to be in all of it yet. Okay. Yeah. I'm just this interesting

when you mentioned that I've first pitched this in 2014. Presumably if that's a thing you've been trying to get away kind of every so often, there is a point at which since 2014 you became James Acaster. You became like you started to,

what do I want to say? The sort of profile, like to me, as someone for whom your profile is like this kind of towering, you know, if I put this on YouTube, loads and loads of people are watching. Please make that a reality. But do you know what I mean?

Like your profile is such that it has this kind of explosive ripple effect on the things that you do. So it certainly seems that way from the outside. Has there been a point at which part of your, like have you pitched things and been knocked back and part of you's wanted to say words to the effect of, I'm James fucking A-Caster. Do you mean? Do you have a sense of like, if, I say this is good, this is good because my repertoire speaks for itself. Sadly, no.

Can you look down the barrel of the camera and say on James Spock again? No, because I haven't, so like with scripted stuff, so I've wanted to do scripted stuff for a long time. And because I've not really been able to do it, like properly, I did one TV pilot and I did a very short, Radio 4 series of like 4, 15 minute episodes. and a 30 minute pilot for it. So that's all the scripted stuff that I've been able to make

and put out into the world proper. And neither of those were successful. You know, obviously the pilot didn't get picked up and the radio four series, you know, I think the pilot that we put out of, you know, I've got good feedback on that, but the series, and no one's ever talked to me about it. And then, so then I've been pitching

all these scripted ideas for years, and none of them have got away. So I don't think, well, James fucking Hank, because I'm like, well, this isn't the same. This isn't standard. I'm not saying to them, hey, I want to do a stand-up show and pitching that to them. I'm saying, like, I want to do this series

where this happens and da-da-da-da. And there's these characters. And I don't know. I'm not right. I haven't proved myself in that. So when they say, when these people who's job it is to commission things, say to me no and they give me their reasons i'm not with each one i have you know

kind of gone oh yeah maybe i'm not very good at it so like because they're saying i'm a pro fucking juicer yeah yeah they're like we fucking know what we're doing we made this we made that you know and and you do think you know i watch you know obviously i watch loads of tv myself and um there's so much stuff where you go that's made by someone who has proved themselves and multiple arenas and now they've been given a TV series and it's shit. So like I don't think I'm an exception to that. So therefore like with all that stuff, I've definitely, like part of the reason why I want to make this audio sitcom was like,

I need to just do something and make it and get it out there. So I think I'm just going to give up on this. I don't want to give up on it because I love the, you know, scripted stuff. And I love the idea of creating that world and getting to tell a story of multiple characters and multiple cast members. and I just wanted to, especially during, you know, the pandemic, I was picturing a lot of stuff over Zoom to people and just feeling like all that stuff you said, none of that matters. I felt like, I'm going into this not just stuck in nobody, but like a bit of a joke. Like, like, I'm going like, I think I could make a series and they're like, hmm.

And I'm like, and it just never. Is there any basis in reality to that? Like, do you know what I mean? Has anyone ever kind of squit? Like, have you ever seen that face that you just did? I've seen this face as I'm talking on Zoom and they're not even, and they're just like, oh, yeah. I've seen that. Really?

And you're like, oh, okay, they're not really listening to this and they're not. And they've already decided you can tell there's a point where you start pitching and you can kind of tell the point where they go. And they've got things they're looking for. So they might, you know, part of their job, I guess, is that they have to sit down and say to each other, what are we, looking for at the minute. Yeah. What stuff do we want? So when you go, okay, so it's a crime-based, no.

And so, like, so that can happen. Sometimes they haven't had that discussion. They don't know what they're looking for. And so you're kind of completely effed. Like, that's not going to, you know, they don't know what they want. And you start talking and they're just like, this is a pointless meeting. Because like, after you leave, we're going to go away and go, what are we even looking for, guys? You know, because now, it's weird now having, you know, come up.

There's a lot of commissioners now and producers who I've come up with. Yes. Yes, I was going to ask about that. When you see people who used to be flyers or techs editor and they now run enormous departments in things. Yeah, you have frank conversations with them because you've known them for a long time. And sometimes they'll go, I don't know what I'm doing. And I don't know what we're looking for. and they won't even let me do anything.

And you're like, oh, yeah, this is. And then you stop taking it out as personally. You do kind of think, okay, it's, but then that's, you know, that reinforces the doing it yourself. And especially with this audio sitcom, you just go, like, we can do this. It's an audio sitcom. We can make this. So let's just do it.

One of the things I find really sort of impressive and inspiring is how, is the extent to which you don't need to keep trying these things. Like you, I can think of, I'm thinking of a particular one, but I'm sure there are several comedians who are, I'm thinking the phrase too big to fail, but that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is someone who's almost painted themselves into a corner by being brilliant at everything they do such that you think, can you still try new stuff? Can you still try new stuff? Or is that a colossal risk to your ego or to your ervra or whatever, you know, the public perception of what you do? because like, you know, for you to take the risk on Springleaf, which is it still called Springleaf, yeah, yeah, yeah.

To take the risk on that is it does represent you going, I am sitting pretty over here on stand up and off menu, and I'm prepared to go out and possibly risk a public failure, which I'm sure won't happen. But, you know, that's the point. That's the sphere, isn't it? And what that means to you, you have different, we all have our own version of what the failure,

what's a failure and what isn't as well, you know, based on how well you want it to do. And so, you know, it could do well, but I still feel like we've fucked it, you know. And it's not, you know, maybe it's not the thing you want. You know, a lot of the time, that's really the main thing for me is that, you know, if I listen back or lead it back or whatever it is and it's not the thing I wanted to make, then that feels like a failure. Is that the parameter?

Because I would imagine that financial compensation or the deal or whatever you or the download numbers or the reviews are less important to you. now? Are you completely detached from all those things? And it's purely about, did I do what I set out to? Yeah, but I mean, they're consolation. If you make something that's not as good as you wanted it to be, and you feel like this pile of accidental shit is incredibly popular. So when you know, okay, well, that's done well enough. You know, because I'd say the things that I wasn't that happy with, none of those have become the things that do really well. Yeah, yeah. But they might do, you go, well, you know, it got commissioned or whatever.

I got paid for it. I tried my best. I definitely wasn't lazy. I fell short of what I wanted to achieve. People aren't that first about it. But let's me go on to the next thing. And sometimes I can wallow in it. You know, there are things, you know,

that might trigger like a big old wallow fest where, like, you know, you have a gig that you didn't enjoy and then you go into, yeah, and that thing wasn't good. And people don't even give a shit about that thing that I made, even though I'm proud of it a bit of it. You can, you know, wallow for a bit and then, you know, speak to someone who cares about you, who will go, shut up. And stop, stop doing that. But yeah, I mean, you know, I've never really had a head for all the figures and the numbers and whatever.

When I started stand up and I was losing money all the time and I just turned off a part of my brain that thought about that. And I think I've lost whatever key is meant to turn it back on because I don't really, it's like those numbers I don't understand them almost they're very abstract when it's you know when Ed and Ben in the other days were like we've had this many down there's like

I don't know what that is I don't know if that's good or not I don't know what the thing is you know so do you do you think is that partly an attempt to protect yourself on some level because you've done it long enough now that you you know you get the sense you get the you you know even if you

don't know the numbers as a percentage of human beings available in the world. I wonder if that kind of, it reminds me of the way I think that I try to look at reviews. Oh, I don't read them. But I love to tell them for what I don't read them because they're so fantastically important to me. Do you know what I mean? Like there's an element whereby my behavior is to protect myself. I wonder if it does protect you to sort of have a rule in your head that the numbers are meaningless. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's been that conscious really. But like definitely, um, It's probably more just a, just quite a privileged position to be in. Like, when I started stand up and the open mic circuit is obviously like nuts

and you're performing to, you know, two or three people in a room above a pub, the mic doesn't work. You're as shit as you're ever going to be. But that was better than the gigs I was doing in my band beforehand. So like, I feel like standup has always felt like even when it's hard, it's like I'm comfortable enough in it that I'm not too worried and so like I'm making it you know if I was doing Edinburgh back in the day and you know

no one was coming to see my shows I think numbers would matter to me yeah but um and in my second year they did in my second year of Edinburgh you know doing my second solo show no one really came and it and it really got me down and I was gutted that no one was seeing this shard worked really hard on. So I think it's just a privilege thing. I've got it's going like, are they all here, so I'm going to take it for granted, which is a shame. And I think it's led to a lot of the behaviours I'm trying to eradicate right now.

I've not appreciating, oh, I've got to sold out room. And not appreciating that, just going like, well, yeah, yeah, because I'm lush. But then I don't believe that at the same time. line. Yes. So like it's so it doesn't really it's a weird one. It's the um like your expectations are so like quite reasonably if you're used to if you've been selling out for however many years now. Like that would change your I imagine it's like suddenly being your words loaded to fuck. Like I mean I'm sort of interesting we don't have to talk about that if it's egging. We're almost never talking about money on the podcast but um I'm sort of you in Lou you mentioned it on stage.

in a really interesting context about, you know, the pandemic and the way that celebrities took their enormous privilege for granted, which isn't something you do. But I just wondered, like, what's your relationship to money now? What's it like being loaded to fuck? I think Ed said in some interview that I wasn't met for, but he said something like, I've never known someone who cares so little about money,

stumbling to so much of it about me. So, like, it was an accident. It was something that, like, you know, I just wanted to make good stuff. And then like that kind of happened. And like, you know, I have accountants and whatever now who I talk to who. Yeah, you're not like putting it all under your mattress and forgetting the tax exists and all that shit that can come for. But I'm pretty sure they have their head in their hands after every meeting is going.

This guy doesn't understand anything we've just said to him. Like he hasn't got a clue. It's obviously just makes me feel incredibly secure. and like I think a lot of the it just de-stressage you and you don't have to worry as much and that is the way that the world is with capitalism and whatnot

is that it just it makes life easier for you and I don't feel comfortable with that all the time I feel like and that's why I feel like I should acknowledge it in a show especially when I'm talking about you know going to therapy and whatnot that's a that's something that I'm doing because I can afford it now

I couldn't afford it when I was growing up and I couldn't afford it, you know, maybe in the years where I needed it the most, I couldn't afford 50 quid a week to go to therapy. And now I can and it's helping me, but I don't want to be going on stage. Yeah, I don't want to be on stage and telling people, you can't afford it so don't bother.

But equally I don't want to be going on stage, making out like, you know, hey, we should all be doing this. Yeah. When some people can't. So like, yeah, it's something that you kind of adjust to now. Like, well, I didn't think this would happen. I didn't think I would ever be this comfortable. So now I've got a, because I didn't plan for that,

I didn't have a, you know, dream house or, you know, if you speak to people that like a dream car or whatever, and I'd never had anything like that. I was just like, I want to make this show or I'm going to do that thing. So now, yeah, you're kind of going like, okay, well, what you want to do with this money and and also, you know, how do you want to,

this does change who you are on stage now. This changes your status with the audience. And like I always really like what Mappalheny from, always studying Philadelphia, is very good in interviews when he's talking about certain things about like, oh no, I was able to get ripped like this because I'm rich. You know, like, because he's aware of like,

Everyone listening to this can't necessarily achieve that. And he wants to make it clear to them like, no, no, you would have to literally never see your family, never do anything else, work out all day with a personal trainer and knows their stuff. And you would have to be very, very rich to be able to do that. And that's how I've done this. And I'm not going to just talk about it like men's health is important and blah, blah, blah. And ignore the fact that I'm able to do this because of that. So like, I do feel like that with certain bits of the show, especially. it's funny that you mentioned him being ripped because my sort of follow-up question was going to be along the lines of

there is this phenomenon now of comics who are designed like that thing of like I'm designing my life people who've made it look like Paul Smith has started doing you know mixed martial arts and training and and is you know massively beefed up there's someone else who did it recently Tom Horton he's been getting really beefy and I think it's one of those things that comes with or it probably comes alongside a sort of like things are working. I've got a bit of free time. Probably, I think in Paul's case, and maybe in other people's cases as well, fans get in touch who are like, hey, you should come to my gym for free because I like you, and then they start teaching them mixed martial arts. I don't know if that's happened to you or you fielded those hard of approaches. But it is that weird design your life thing whereby I sort of notice it or do you recognize that kind of trope of like comic, self-made, doing really well, starts doing mixed martial arts and getting buff. And I'm just always what, what is this? that about? Is it to do with wanting a feeling of security? Because maybe these people are in environments where they're famous and everyone knows they've probably got their wallet on them. And so they're more vulnerable. Like that guy who's been in the news recently who's trying to live

forever, he's like a billionaire and he's getting blood transfuse for his sum. I've done no further research. I think I saw the caption under a picture. I feel like that's a thing. Yeah. Where by people, maybe when you get rich enough and yourself determining enough, you start thinking, how can I cheat death? Well, I better start doing protein shakes and chlorophyll. I'm whatever. Yeah, because then you're, yeah, you kind of completed the game. You're saying something, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, what?

Yeah. Oh, what am I? I've got all the best weapons. I don't want the game to end. Yeah. And I'd like another level, but I don't want to, yeah, whatever it is. Yeah, I guess like, but that's when you're, I guess, and there's loads of different reasons why people would obviously, you know,

doing mixed martial arts and looking at, you know, any kind of physical exercise is looking after yourself and it's cool. so like you know good on them um the living for everything I mean that the billionaire and the blood transfusions that that is just someone who yeah as they've got nothing else to achieve for themselves

yeah so they're like well I would like to live forever and you're like there are more things you could achieve but they would just involve benefiting other people you fucking asshole so like you know so I think that uh I think that's that as well it's like you know it takes a lot of work to get to to where those people are, I'm sure. And then you maybe, and a lot of work towards yourself.

It's, you know, going around on the open mic circuit and trying to make it in Edinburgh and all of that. It's a lot of hard work and it's all geared towards you doing better. And it's not really geared towards anyone else. And you kind of have to, you can't just keep that up forever. I think when you do get in a position where you're quite comfortable, if you're going to keep on just serving this and ego or whatever. The thing is, you probably, I reckon that's probably dangerous.

And you should, yeah, yeah. Well, exercise and stuff is different. On that, I've been doing, I'm just at the very beginning of doing some ADHD coaching, like being coached by someone who specialises in coaching people with ADHD. I'm just trying it out because, yeah, I'll try it out. Maybe it'll be useful. I still go through like big kind of imposter syndrome about it like, you know, I'm on medication now. I'm like week four of medication.

It definitely has an effect, but then it would on anyone doesn't prove that I've definitely got it. And it's all, you know, it's a source of confusion for me. But in taking on this ADHD coach, I didn't realize that one of the opening things before the actual coaching can start. I thought it was going to be like job therapy or like productivity therapy where you get like regular meetings with somebody who's like going, why don't you try doing it like this, this and this. And suddenly, what are going to do it? before we get to that, which I hope is still coming, there is an element of it where you've got to do like,

you know, fairly tedious personality test, worksheets, all this kind of business. In doing that, I was really resentful and like, I don't do it. It's just cuts the good stuff. In doing it, I've sort of ended up going, oh, it's helping me, I hope, to realize, as I have been for some time,

that I've spent, just as you say, like most comics, it's about you, it's inward looking, it's shining the torch on yourself the whole time. I need to increase my productivity, my gigging, my, you know what I mean? And it's capped off by this experience of walking on stage and they clap and they laugh and people say, you're great, ideally, or they don't and then you go off and have a crisis about you, you know, oneself. It's all inward facing. And I wonder, in feeling like, what are your goals?

What are the things you want to achieve? And basically, I'm ending up with my goals. goals are do a lot, focus on myself a lot less, focus on work a lot less, be less narcissistic, focus on my family, focus on my wife, focus on my friends, and also turbocharge the business to be also going to grow over there. Yeah, yeah. And how are you with your, with that, with turning the flashlight on yourself? In your, in your kind of journey thus far as a comic and what you anticipate going further. You've been as subject as any of us to those, and certainly more, I would think, writing shows about yourself, about your experiences, being a public person,

everyone having an opinion. It's kind of like, if you start thinking, if someone in your position starts going, it's kind of all about me this, everyone's going to agree with you. So how are you with that at the moment? Yeah. I don't know yet. It's because I feel like this, this show, I guess a lot of us with our stand-up shows, it just tends to, you know, to be often just the show that you have to do rather than, you know, necessarily sitting down and going, I want to do this next. I felt like I had to do this, like a show that was about this, but I was, I've been very aware while doing it.

I was like, this is really, really just about you. This is just like me, me, me, my life experience, and that's it. And that's fine to a point. But I was like, but I have thought while doing it, like, maybe moving forwards it would be, good to not to have a bit more of an outward facing show in the future if you do another one after this and it's not just

just all about you and what's going on with you because we've got to the point now and sometimes I feel like you know you paint yourself into a corner where you're like I am just now I am talking about literally literally the thing we're doing right now like I'm just talking about stand up

and being on stage in front of them and that's the show I don't know where there is to go now you know and and then you feel a bit like fucking hell man come on there's a whole world and a whole bunch of stuff there's fucking massive issues in the world right now and you're not touching any of those you're just going on about

you're on stage and how it feels so yeah I would like to sometimes I think you feel like you've reached the end of a certain chapter or whatever it is in your stand-up. And I think moving forwards, I'd like to do stuff that's a bit,

it's a bit different and isn't so much to shun the torture yourself. It's what's nice about off-menus when we get to interview people, so it's about them each time. So yeah, I think, like, I don't know what those projects are yet, necessarily, but, like, it would be cool to,

because even, you know, the audio sitcom is about James A castor the stand-up comedian who's always been an undercover cop but it's still like me in stand-up so you still kind of there's that quality to it as well which I think it's cool I think that's where I am at the minute but I do feel like yeah we're getting to the end of that and we'll see what's next let's talk a bit more about the show because we're making reference to it without having really set up exactly what it is so I mean almost everyone

will know but for the rare people that don't the show that you're touring at the moment how much how much of the tour have you got left Yeah. We've got three more days here in Bristol. And then I think we've got four days in Leeds, four days in Belfast, some about three Ketam dates. And I think that's this year, done. And then next year there's like five other towns or cities that's like four dates in each.

But then, but to be honest, I think, yeah, most of it will happen next year. I think there's also going to be a bunch more London dates added. and hopefully some American dates. So like, you know, I'm probably not halfway for it by the end of this year. Definitely not at the minute. To establish what the show is, can you please give me the two-minute bullshit

that you would say on a normal radio interview? Sure. The show is called Hector's Welcome. The audience is allowed to do whatever they want. I have written a show, but they're allowed to ruin it. And the reason that you did that, the reason that you've created that is because you became aware that you had a problem with being heckled on stage.

Yeah, I've been aware of it since the start, but I became aware that it was never going to stop in 2019. So, like, it was like, I think at the beginning, when I started out as a stand-up, you know, all you do on the open-mic circuit, open-mic comments, just say to each other because, you know, you've just done a gig that is unplayable, and you all feel a little bit weird after the gig.

Some of you have had a good one. Some of you haven't, and it's all, but all of your emotions all over place. And all of you, often at the end of those gigs will say to each other, oh,

imagine one day when you just got your own audience and they're all there to see you. I bet that's great. And then I really kept me going through those like weird, you know, those weird years of just like

traveling around the country, losing money, doing gigs to no one, didn't go very well. I'd think, oh, I'll be Ross Noble one day. And like, you know,

that would be cool. and so you know at those gigs if someone heckles you and you respond aggressively or whatever who cares no one's you're not anyone you're just an open micer and then you start to do well or pick it up it's hard to become your job

but they're still not there to see you they're not really your audience so fuck them they're they're shouting out they're talking over you they're doing all this because this is a riff-ref that I'm going to get rid of and I'm going to get rid of and I'm going to purify I'm going to have this audience that are just there to see me

so I can afford to point out to that guy why he's rubbish and then they'll never come and see me again and I'm weeded them out and I'm fucking I'm kitsing and then you end up you know I ended up 2019 and this tour

you know when Netflix shows had been out off menu was doing well and taskmaster this is as much as like like I'm ever going to have my own audience. The tour sold out really quickly. It was in, you know, thousand seats for the first time.

Here we go. This is going to be great. And they were hepthing still. They were talking over me still. They were on their phones, lighting their faces up. They were quiet and not really laughing. And I just was still responding the same way. you know just having a go at and throwing the gigs and i'd felt bad about it for a few tours before then

you know there was like a few tours before then probably from my third show onwards so that's like 2013 the tour was i was like oh that was bad you know you you know it's 50 people in an art center but you went out and told them they were shit um i don't think you needed to have done that let's try not do that again. And then with each tour, I would start it. I remember starting a tour with a new tour manager, maybe in 2016 or something insane to him, like, if I throw a gig and tell, can you email my agent and like snitch on me?

And he was like, I'm not going to do that. It's weird. But like, maybe you just don't do that. I was like, yeah, I try. And I'm like, yeah, for three dates in, I'm telling them they're shit. And I was really aware of it. But then when it was the 2019 tour, the one where I was like, okay, this is really never going to end.

Because with that tour in particular, that was the kind of the apotheosis of you're doing what you want specifically to your crowd in big rooms that sell out immediately, which means they all must be fans. Like the circumstances can't be more optimal than this and yet still. Yeah, but also realizing that they're not all going to be fans. That's never going to be the cat. I bumped into Chris Addison once when I was like, I was new.

I was like, I'd probably done one or two solo shows and, you know, sparsely populated tours. And I was halfway through when it wasn't going well. I did a charity gig at Bloomsbury that Chris Hadison was on and he was leaving as I was arriving. And he always been very supportive to me from like day one. And he was like, how's it going? How are you doing? And I was like, oh, I'm doing a tour. It's really hard.

Obviously, they're not there to see me. But like, it gets better, right? He was like, nope. I was like, what? He said, no, because even if you sold out. a thousand seater there's like a really hardcore fan of yours who's bought three of their mates who've never

seen you don't know what you do or there are people who saw you on one thing thought you were pretty good bought tickets just to see if you're funny live and actually these stand-ups not their cup of tea so that's never going to go away it's never going to and I kind of was like all right I believed in but I still didn't address my behaviour on stage I was sure I was still like

no no they need to change they're the ones who are wrong and then like yeah in 2019 it was the big feeling of that of like, okay, they really have just brought their mates alarm or they've seen me on something that this isn't rep. Even if they'd seen my Netflix shows, to be honest, I was like, in that I'm saying I'm an undercover cop, I'm on jury service, and now I'm going on stage

and I'm talking about having suicidal thoughts. Like this is not the same comedian that they got into from that, to be fair, to them. You know, it is a shift. And I'm asking them to go with it and run with it, like they're people who go to the Edinburgh Festival every year and it's exciting for them when a comic pivots. But like, if I had gone to see Ross Noble

before I became a stand-up, and he'd gone on stage and then very seriously talked about his mental health, I'd have been like, what the fuck? I came to see this guy because I really like his, like, whimsical improvisation, and now he's just talking about being depressed.

And I might have enjoyed it, but I wouldn't have necessarily been the loudest laugher in the room. You know, I would have been, like, okay, so this comedy can do this. And I might have even got away thinking, that's fascinating. But I wouldn't have, like, he would have known that for me because I would have been sitting there going oh okay this is a new

thing for me so yeah so 2019 I was just like this isn't on them anymore this is really it's really not on them like they half the time you know they're actually a good audience and you're bored of the show you're insecure about the show and yourself as a stand-up um you know you ultimately don't think you're good at this it doesn't matter what people say so like you do have this insecurity when a joke doesn't land as well as it usually does or someone looks a bit bored and you go for that and there were gigs on that tour there's a gig in leads where like the audience were phenomenal and there was one guy who was sat in like a royal box which jutted out onto the stage so he was lit like I was and he was just an old boy he was like sat on the lip a bit like that

looking at and he was just completely dead faced but the rest of them it was like the best audience I'd had all tour and I was just like it was just him and I started going like you're right what's going on a beer like and eventually he was like you know I went to see you I'd do your book tour and I likes that but I don't like that and he I pushed him to the point where he had to say I don't like this and then I've and then the gig just went as I just dismantling it all in the bin doesn't matter that all you lot are loving it fuck this guy there other people started to heckle me as the gig went on because I basically just like you know I'd stopped it from being this nice gig.

And I remember coming off and going, absolutely 100% your fault. No one else to blame for that whatsoever. Why did you do that? Why are you focusing on that guy? And knowing more and more as that show was going on, like, okay, you either quit or you sort this out. And then at the end of the tour, I was like, right,

let's just, I want to take some time off and not do stand up for a bit because I was like, you know, basically for however many years it had been at that point, you know, it was end of 2019. I started in 2008. And I was like, you have not really given yourself, on average, you've worked every single night for those.

You know, because you've done multiple gigs a night. You've done also, so like, you've probably done a gig every single day on average for that amount of time and you need some time off. And then obviously that coincided with the pandemic. So everyone's having time off anyway and I'm at home and really enjoying not being up there every night. And then you do think, well, why am I doing this? why why am I putting down through that as well?

Yeah, they're all buying tickets and sitting down to watch a show. And I'm just going like, fuck, yeah, you go, there's nothing shit. Like, it's embarrassing. And it's shit for them. So, yeah, just like kind of realizing that, you're going to have to change and how are you going to do that? There's a moment in the show, which I texted you at the interval to tell you how therapeutic I was finding it,

which I don't think you've got that message to laugh. And as soon as I'd sent it, I was like, that may not have come across like a compliment. I mean, I did say, you know. I saw it after. It was fine. It's nice. But the therapeutic aspect of it as someone who is perpetually having a crisis about comedy, as a lot of us are, but it's a particularly weird time for me. I'm having a, maybe a crisis is too strong a word.

No one else cares. No, but that's how it feels. That's how it feels. How am I doing it? What am I doing? Do I still want to do? do it, do I get from it what I used to? The thing I keep saying is that I've got into it for the adventures, and I feel like I had some of the adventures through an ADHD lens, you might go,

it's not as novel as it was, and it is holding my interest less in certain circumstances, certain situations. What was so therapeutic in that show was you, when you talk about having, like, I don't want to be on stage, I'll butcher the line, but the sentiment being, I don't want to be on stage, but the only place worse than this is being you. And if my God, I just, like me and the two comics who were behind me both, like, hooted at that because that's right. That's right. You know, we're all, because everyone can be, we can all be so passionate about comedy and, like, I've made my whole fucking life about it. That's part of a crisis. If you go, if I stop doing this, what the fuck am I? It's so woven around my identity and how

I see myself and all the rest of it, torch inward, inwards, a series of torches. That idea that, like, I don't want to be here. But the only place worse than here is being down there. And that sense of like, you've just nailed that yearning of like, if not this, I don't want to be that. And I suppose with that in mind as well is the empathy of, I said, I'm trying to make two points at once. But the other bit that I remember in particular from that section was really you talking about how,

when you talk about all of the things you're accusing the audience of, and there's a really nice little kind of double rhythm where you go, which by the way is exactly how I do it. You know, people sat in audiences staring at you, which by the way is exactly how I watch comedy. Seeing it from our point of view and really drilling into the relationship between audience and performer

and who is responsible for what and what the stakes are. Again, you know, there's stakes for you and the stakes for us. Someone pointed out that recently in the Facebook group that I'm over fond of saying that's not really a question, but do something with that. They're not going to find another way to do it. That's idea of like, I don't necessarily want to be up here, but I don't want to be down there.

Yeah. And I don't really have the answer. Like you're saying, a lot of people have been asking like, well, why does he still do it then? I don't really have an answer for that. I haven't figured that out yet. And I know, I know that I like making stuff.

I really love making things and creating and all that. That's really fun. It's fun and it's satisfying. And it's not anything necessarily more than that. It's nothing chin stroky or, you know, it doesn't make, it doesn't improve my, it doesn't make my, uh, kind of like opinion of myself. It doesn't elevate it and I just have to create and all that. It's not, it's not that. It's really fun and I love it and I've loved it since I was a little kid.

And it just kind of happened that stand up was the thing that took off because I was able to do it without relying on anyone else. you know, I think a lot of us like that. I remember in the open mic circuit, meeting, like, people who I still know now, we'd all tried something and been the driving force behind, like, a band or a theater group or something like that, you know, tried to do writing with a writing partner and they were lazy or whatever it was. And so we started doing this on our own.

And then suddenly it accelerates because no one's, you know, not turning up at band practice. no one's not learned their lines. It's just you booking it, doing it yourself. So even if it isn't this thing of like what I have to do with standup comedy, because that was not how I felt at the beginning. I was like, I have to be a standup. I loved standup.

I loved comedy. And from day one, comedy has been my favorite genre of anything. And like, it's been a huge part of my life. And when I discovered standup, it completely, you know, just changed everything for me. all I wanted to watch. So doing it and trying it out was quite a logical thing of someone who likes to try any creative things that he enjoys. But I wasn't like this would be my career at all.

And then I found that I really enjoyed working on it and it was really satisfying to actually get to do something where, you know, I get up on stage, try it, didn't work, go away, change it. Go, I think it's that. I think it's the way I said it. change it, oh that works, and actually being able to make stuff. Like we were saying with the pitching TV shows and no one's letting you make it and then you go, I need to make something.

I want to stop just thinking about it. So suddenly I was able to actually do it and it's the feedback straight away with comedy. And I do love stand-up. I love talking about it. Like, you know, Nish and I during one of the times in the pandemic where, you know, know things opened up for a bit, went for a drink and we might stand up and halfway through we said, you're going to carry on doing this. You love this. And I was like, I do love it. And I, and that's not, you know, doesn't mean it's simple and a straightforward thing that

therefore I can get up and do it. But I wouldn't be doing this show if I didn't love it and don't want to do it anymore. I would just stop doing comedy and I wouldn't do it. And I'm doing this show because I do love it and I do want to keep doing it. So I think that's worth trying and getting better at. And in order for that to happen, I think I need to do a show like this that acknowledges it all and lays it out for them and analyzes it a little bit. Can we talk a little bit about the boy? Yeah?

Because that's one of the most, talk about the show having a therapeutic quality and an empathetic quality whereby the, I don't want to give stuff away, but the idea. of the boy that you are protecting, the youthful version of you, like this whole time I've been up on stage, I never realized, but the whole time the boy was up here with me and I was trying to protect him. God, I felt like, I mean, I don't think I was in tears, but I was definitely like, I'm going to be in tears in a minute because that completely speaks to me and, you know, I think anyone who's undergone a therapeutic journey involving their childhood self, as most journeys, I imagine, would. I'm constantly trying to protect the boy.

and so many of us must be. That is such an incisive way to look at it. It's such, like similarly to the thing where you talk about the love you have for your girlfriend and wanting to protect each other's vulnerabilities and each other's younger selves. It's like it's one of those things where you sort of go, oh, I mean that, you should write a book about that,

let alone have it figure in a comedy show. That's like, what, like a big, meaningful thing. I just want to talk about the boy and your relationship to the boy because I don't know where my relate. Here's the question. Maybe part of why I'm having some concerns and challenges about my relationship with stand-up is I feel like I'm looking after the boy pretty well now and I feel like I've worked out that it doesn't necessarily serve the boy to keep doing stand-up.

And I thought it really did. I thought the boy had to have me do stand up so that you feel worth something. And I've realised that he doesn't need that. Yeah, I think... I'm glad I stopped then because the goal of this isn't to make me cry. No, no, but it's completely like... Yeah, it is that thing where you...

Especially during the lockdowns, I was like, oh, I'm looking after myself properly. And it feels like a big part of looking after myself is not going on stage every night. and really realizing the, because I did this, loads of stuff that's been cut out of the show because, I mean, two hours as it is. So like, so you just stay.

But there was some moments in lockdown. There's a, well, I would do like some Zoom gigs or something. Like we all did every now and again. And I would really notice sometimes if I felt like I'd messed up something on the Zoom, my anxiety levels is going like through the roof. And the jump being so much higher because I was feeling so relaxed all the time at a level that I hadn't really felt for ages because I was doing gigs every single nights or every single day. There was this build up to the gig and then really intense anxiety and nerves before going on and then going on and kind of being all over the place with nervous, nurse anxiety, fear. insecurity, all of that, and then coming off and self-hatred and all of this.

And now I was just feeling all right and nice and just kicking around in the flat, being in love, and watching TV and going, I'd forgotten that watching TV is my favorite thing. And they're just doing that and then like making dinner, you know, and enjoying all those things. And I don't have a Zoom gig, say something to one of the other performers or whatever that I have, thought took the wrong way and then just feel through the roof anxiety about it and then afterwards be like in the flat like oh my god yeah and talking to my girlfriend about like i just feel like i've gone from like here to like way through that whereas before i think i was always operating around here anxiety wise so when i did that it would just go like that and i'd notice that

jump but now it's like warm like from from there and you do think like is this looking after me doing these kind of i don't know if it is me looking after myself doing these gigs because it doesn't seem to be feeling good. And so, yeah, again, you just kind of go, okay, well, we'll try. Because then what do you do? Do we ever stop doing it altogether? Do you carry on doing it but decide not to have it matter as much? Because I think we're both people who it really matters that it's good is in our own personal standards of good.

And we want it to be decent. We don't just want to go on and kind of fob them off with stuff that it does the job, it makes them laugh, go home, they'll forget about it, who cares? Like, we want to be doing stuff that's significant, but we could, if we wanted to, do stuff that's a bit more disposable, do that on autopilot, it wouldn't matter to me as much. I might not be as nervous before I'll go on stage, I might not care about it as much as when I'm on there, I wouldn't hate myself afterwards. I've got to be okay with it.

but then I don't think I could do that in a minute. I saw an interview with Dave Grohl and he was saying like, man, you know, June and Nirvana and those first two Three Fighters albums, I just wanted everything to be perfect and everything to be like the best music ever. And it was so stressful all the time. And then third Three Fighters album,

I just made a conscious decision. Let's just have fun. You're here to have fun, have fun with this. And I've enjoyed every single album we've ever made since then. And it's been amazing. I was like, that's great. everything from the third three fighters album is shit so like so that still matters to me you know I mean Dave Grog I'm sure just show us the numbers and go well how can we've done bigger and bigger venues for every album so like shut up and like but like for me I'm like artistically

Nirvana first two food fighters albums fucking brilliant I want I still are not ready to let go of that and wanting to make those I'm not ready to make fucking one by won't yet. I don't want to do that. And how does the boy feel about that decision? Does that feel, does that feel in his interest? Yeah, it feels like he's on board without a minute. I don't know. I think you're still checking in each time. I'm very honest with myself about how I am feeling now before gigs in the interval

after gigs, you know, a big part of it is acknowledging how I feel, yeah, I stay on stage. So I was for years telling myself, I was excited when I wasn't, you know, I was nervous. nervous and scared and whatever. And part of this tour is just like, you know, let's just, let's check in with that all the time and how am I feeling about it? And is this sustainable? Because when you remove the option of bollock in the audience and throwing the gig back in their faces, you are left with, okay, what's really going on here?

Because really the main problem wasn't that I did that. that was a symptom and then that symptom becomes the problem so you you're just going like oh i've got to stop telling the audience there's shit blah blah blah but actually that's that's because of other stuff that's going on so if you stop telling them their shit and stop telling them like this gig shit and whatever you still have those feelings that made you do that i'm not on stage feeling brilliant every night i'm on stage still feeling insecure still feeling like that got less than normal. That person looks bored. I don't think this show is very good, actually. I think my last show was better.

And so that's all there, but you get to listen to that more and actually look at it and reflect on it and how do you actually feel about it, you know? So, yeah, that's like this ongoing is how, you know, how is this making me feel? is that good and right now the aim of the tour is if we can get

through this whole tour without once flipping the table over that's the goal embarrassing the low bar but that's the goal and then hopefully that will enable me

to look at these other things and go okay how do we deal with these things now are they ever going to go away if they're not is this worth carrying on doing? Because does that make you feel good?

You know, you're protecting this inner child. Does that make them feel good? Like, if this isn't possible, then, yeah, maybe just do a food podcast, you know? And that's fine. Yeah, I think I'd sooner stop than do shows that don't matter to me, but I don't think are as nourishing for it. audience. I want there to be something there.

I'll be honest with yesterday. So like yesterday's show in the interval, I went, yeah, maybe this isn't. Oh, you're just going to stop. Because, like, because this isn't making you feel good. You went, you went out there. You didn't, that whole first half, you just felt like this show's not very good, actually. Oh, man. You know, you felt, you felt like, you, you know, yeah, you just felt like you, it was expecting, like, how you're feeling about yourself. Maybe we just, like, get to the end of this tour and knock on the head.

And then at the end of the second half, I was like, that's fine. Cool. Yeah, I wasn't like, the opposite, but like, I was like,

you know, and I knew as well that they don't necessarily know that as an audience. I'm staggered to hit. They won't feel like that. They won't be sitting there thinking those things.

And I know that every show I've ever done, there are people in the audience thinking this is shit and there are people in the audience thinking this is brilliant. And there's everyone in between.

And there is no actual measurement. There's no one in heaven. Kind of going, tick, tick, tick, tick. You know, that's what that one was. There's no data. Yeah. And even if there is, like, you know, I was speaking to someone once,

I went to know, like a film director who made a really big film that'd done really well years ago. And they were about to make another one. And they said to me, Like, we're walking out. And they kind of said, do you ever worry that you're only going to get remembered for one thing? I was like, dude, if we get remembered for anything, that's, like, what are you talking?

Like, come up. Like, if you currently are standing here thinking that you've made something you're going to be remembered for, then fucking well done. As most people, like, you know, so like, that's, that's good going. Most filmmakers aren't getting remembered. So, like, I feel like with this, you know, always having to. And I like it in a way. I like the fact that I feel like I want this show to be better than the last one every time. And that's good.

And I don't want to lose that. And I would rather, if I do lose that, I would rather just go, okay, it's probably stopped then. I'm staggered to hear that you were in the interval last night. It's so fresh. Last night's show is so fresh in both of our minds. I can't believe. Weirdly, we were having sort of funny chats via WhatsApp before the show. show and then during the interval, I merely sent you another jockey thing. And I thought,

I'm not going to do that just in case. Not that I think that you are particularly vulnerable, but I think you're vulnerable to yourself. And I thought, I'm just not going to, I'm just not going to risk it because not that. That decision was informed solely by the knowledge of you and not by the first half at all. The first half was fucking brilliant. We haven't heard any of that stuff before. It smashed us to bit. We as an audience, absolutely completely loved it. I'm stunned to hear that you were there thinking, well, maybe that's me. And that's, I don't even know what to say about that. It's sort of facile to go, hey, buddy, you know what I mean?

And I know you ended up in a positive place with it, as well you should. But it is staggering to hear that given that I was there. And hey, there's no data, but I've got data. And I know how well it was and how therapeutic and funny and brilliant and genuinely nourishing. I found it. Yeah, I guess it's because, like, I mean, that's the good thing about doing a show where you have taken your worst habit and you've made that, that's off the table now. That's not an option. You can't do it.

Is that you do, you are left with, you know, analyzing what's actually going on. And I think, like, like, last night, I can be like, okay, you basically, I can, like, look back at the whole tour now, which I've never been able to do this. because by now the tour would be littered with me throwing gigs. So there's no data for myself. I can't actually go what's going on. Because I know what's going on. I told them to fuck themselves. So that's why that went badly, blah, blah, blah.

But and then beyond that, I'm not really analysing it because I'm like, well, they were a bit quiet, so that's why I did it. But like now I'm able to go, okay, start this tour. you had a show but you didn't like the show yet and so you didn't take the audience's responses personally in Cardiff or Glasgow because you weren't you didn't think it was good yet you were still trying to make it your level of good your version of good

so when they didn't laugh or they were a bit quiet you weren't like they're wrong it was kind of fine and then and then I did Camden expecting it to be easy and I actually found Camden really hard but again still didn't think the show was good enough so really knuckled down in Camden and worked and then after that Manchester followed by Birmingham

followed by Dublin were a joy I loved it is the most enjoyable run of gigs on a tour I've ever had it was 12 in a row and I loved all of them I felt I liked the show, I'm proud of it I don't love the show yet and I'm not like, and it's not finished yet. But like really, really love it.

Dublin was like, the final night in Dublin is one of the best gigs I've ever had. And I just enjoyed myself so much. Again, don't think the show's finished. I wouldn't say I love the show, but I loved that gig and I really enjoyed myself. And then I went to Brighton thinking like, here we go. Brighton's always easy. And then Brighton felt from my perspective on stage incredibly difficult. and I didn't tell them that because I'm not allowed to

every bit of me in the first half of the first Brighton show wanting to say to them, you're right, where are you? What's happened? Brighton's always nice. Why you're not? Dublin was amazing. Why are you not this? I didn't say any of that, but then that makes you reflect. So I do know I can look back and go, okay, you didn't like it, then you liked it,

then these gigs were brilliant, and then Brighton felt awful by comparison because you would have these amazing ones that felt easy and you didn't really, you know, they were such an up for it crowd. Vickers Street's an amazing venue. The venue has a lot to do with it. And so you just flew and you had a great time.

And now you're in a room that feels a little bit more difficult, but the audience aren't necessarily any less up for it. It feels harder to you on stage. That's not necessarily the reality of it. And you're able to have, you go, okay, I hated that gig. But I didn't enjoy that gig. First Brighton gig, I did not enjoy it. But you feel the achievement of, though, they don't know that.

I still did the show for them. And you are like, oh, and also a problem now is that I like the show and I think it's good. So when they're not laughing loads, I'm like, what fuck's them out with you? Yeah. Whereas like, actually, they don't even know where they're not laughing at them. I don't know how much it usually gets. I don't know how much Dublin would pick up on the slightest eyebrow raise and laugh at it, you know, which is me being really spoiled there.

Yeah. You know, and then and then you go to Brighton and you do that and they go, are you like, what the fuck is? So like, you're able to actually look back and do that. So Bristol yesterday, I was like, okay, you're coming off of Brighton. Brighton left you feeling less confident in the show. And now you're here in Bristol and you're aware that you're putting a lot on this gig because this is the first one of the four and you want to get back on track and enjoy it.

and you've done some work in progress like 20 minutes spots in this room and you always love it so you're thinking in your head this is going to be like Bicker Street again and da da da and it was easier than Brighton but not as easy as Dublin and also I was feeling less confident

I wasn't walking on stage confident in the show so there was that and so you get to acknowledge all those things rather than just go oh what went wrong was I threw the gig yeah right so even though you're still not feeling good on stage you get to actually go why am I not feeling good?

It's actually in all of these things. And it might have the other things. You know, sometimes it's like, I didn't get enough sleep last night. I didn't eat properly today. Whatever the thing was. And then you go, okay, it was those things. Or, you know, someone said something to me before,

went on and that wasn't very nice. And then I had to go on. And you get to acknowledge all those things and figure those out. Rather than it just being this one problem, which wasn't really ever the problem. Do you have an internal kind of narrator Do you have an internal system for if you catch yourself thinking, some of those thoughts that you described of like,

you mid-gig thinking, this isn't as nice as them, what's wrong with them? Oh, I mustn't say that. Oh, maybe I don't want to do this anymore. Maybe it's the show. Maybe it's my approach. Maybe it's the food. Those things. Do you have like tools or things that you can say to yourself that you can kind of,

like one of mine is if I know, if I'm having a bad gig, I'll be holding the mic too hard. And if I notice and then relax my grip on the mic, I'll start having a slightly less bad gig. Anything like that. Do you have any kind of physical or kind of internal narrative things that you can do? Yeah, I guess I can try and make it more fun for myself on stage, but then everything is a roller to die something.

So it's like in Brighton, the first night in Brighton, I was like, oh, they're quieter than I was expecting. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be looser. Maybe that will make it better. And I felt like actually it made it worse. Because by the end, I was like, I don't think that was the show. I don't think they got the show.

They got me kind of doing the show but fucking about. And they didn't even go for the fuckabouts that much. So it seemed like quite a baggy show. And that's not what I've written. And I misrepresented it. And then the second night in Bright and I was like, before going on, like, we're going to tighten this up. We're going to perform it with energy.

Do it like you're filming it. And their reaction doesn't matter. And it was better the second night. But then I'd struggle with the third and the fourth nights. but like yesterday it was more. So yesterday it was almost the opposite. Like I was like, okay, let's just stick to it, do the show. And then there was a bit in the first half where I improvised a little bit.

I felt the audience relax and it be really fun. So, oh, maybe that's what we should do. Actually mess around more tonight. But then at the same time, you know, I know that the material without messing around is two hours. So you kind of like, yeah, how much do you want to be? push of that. Yeah, because there is the, because last night, almost no one heckled.

Yeah. There was one crap one just before the end. And then there was one quite fun one that you did something with at the very end. And then it really ended beautifully. But we were talking last night about how sometimes they do heckle loads. Yeah. So you must be in a position of kind of going, oh, it'd be good if the show was only an hour and 30 long.

And then I've had loads of space. Yeah. And it could overrun or not. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's stuff I can kind of cut out if I want to. So if there are a lot of heckles, I can go, okay, we, fill it here and do that and sometimes the heckles make it quite interesting and sometimes they don't and you have to be aware of what to acknowledge and what not to acknowledge.

But actually to the point earlier, I think that a lot of it last night was trying to have more fun with the delivery, the stuff that doesn't take up time and just go like deliver it a bit different and deliver this story a bit differently and it doesn't matter if that's how you do it from now on just do it. And there was a couple of bits that were like, okay, that's more fun. And maybe we'll keep it like that. And maybe we won't.

But like, still engaging with it and being actively involved with it, I think is what I consciously do on stage. It's like, don't just go into autopilot because that's when you really risk getting bored. And then that's when you really risk, you know, stropping. So if you just completely, if you're still engaged with, how can we make this bit better, let's mess around with. let's play with this. Yeah.

Then that gives me a better chance of like, you know, yeah, steering the boat on that. We've got a load of listener questions, which I'd love to do because they're always fun. Before we do that, I remember my question from earlier, but we've covered it. What would be your law? Do you remember Milliken on this podcast on like episode six or something? She said Milliken's law, and she explained what Milliken's law was. And I thought I should start asking more people what their law is. Her law.

Her law was, no matter how badly the gig went, you can't feel bad after 11 a.m. But no matter how well it went, you can't feel good. Like, you can't swagger around. It's about this after. The last night in Brighton, Sam Campbell and Joe Wilkinson came to see the show, and he came backstage. And I was like, oh, man, I don't go. And one of them mentioned, but they didn't even mention it as Milliken's law. They mentioned it as this thing.

So it's like a thing now in the comedies of. night guest is well you know people say it's like past 11 o'clock you shouldn't feel right about it. I was like my emotions don't have a fucking cut off with the well done Milliken if she's doing that but like

I couldn't do that well I mean you know I mean at the minute my law is literally just just don't don't tell the bit the thing it's going shit I mean that that's like

you know And it's something that some comics have just naturally been able to do since they were open spots. And some comics have never been able to do. And, you know, there were comics who have been going way, way, way, way longer than me, way more successful than me who haven't learned to not do it yet. And I look at them and that makes me scared that I don't want to be that. And I saw some newer comedians doing it at a gig when I was in the audience. And I remember thinking, yeah, I want to tell them stop doing that.

But I haven't learned to stop doing it yet. So I can't tell them that. But this feels fucking shit in the audience. To be told that it's going badly, to be told that they're a bad audience. You're sitting there going, you know. Because the individuals aren't thinking we're an audience. Yeah. You're just thinking on me.

You're just watching something. And, you know, actually a lot of the time as an audience member, but you're not really cocking everything I'm like, you're just like, I like this, or I like that one, didn't like that one, whatever, this is nice and what, and then when the person starts going like, really, you don't like that? Also, like, I've never seen a comic do that and kind of go and not have the answer for them. I'm sure every time I've said to audiences what the fuck is going on, I bet they know exactly what's going on, and they could have told me,

but it would be too harsh to go, I think what's going on. You mumbled that fucking set up, and we didn't know what you said. So that's what went on. And also what went on is that that word you use just there is way too fucking harsh. So I didn't laugh at the punchline because you were too mean. So maybe ACaster's law should be, if you ask them what's wrong with them, you should only ask them what's wrong with them if you're prepared for them to tell you. Yeah, yeah, you're prepared for it.

Yeah. Here we go. here's some, I'd love to know a bit more about Springleaf and about what stage of production it is. We'll do quickfire because the kids are going to return from school when he moves. Yeah, great. We've got like about three more cast members to record and then we're entity editing

and the mixing of it. I've enjoyed it so much I'm very excited about it. Does heckling, post heckler's welcome, does heckling still bug you as badly as it did? Yeah. Does that be the same? Do you feel more equipped to deal with it mentally though? Not to deal with it in the

room, but you feel more equipped to, like it bugs you, but you're better equipped to deal with it. Yeah, yeah. And the whole thing isn't like, let's change my brain completely so that I like it. It's let's change my response to this thing that I don't like. It's like, you know, when I say about the baggage carousel, I will never like the baggage carousel at airports. But if I get stressed out by it every single time, that's lunacy. It's going to start every holiday on a downer. And I have to just accept all these people.

idiots and they're going to do it long and so I can just stand by and then get my back and go and make the best for bad situation any heckler even at this show a lot of the time I'm like and shut the fuck up you fucking dickhead but like but I know that that's not the the right response is not the helpful response and to deal with it properly you could do a version of heckler's welcome which is like in an arena and you deliberately kill anyone that heckles and it's a way of like trawling through all of the comedy fans in the country such that anyone that is moved to heckler, the show called Hecler's Welcome, is immediately destroyed.

I really enjoyed, Ali Panting says, I really enjoyed you mention on Trustee Hoggs. I've never heard of that. It's a wonderful podcast. I've been on it. I enjoyed you hearing you mentioned on Trusty Hoggs about how watching inside by Bowburn and made you feel like shit for a while because you felt like you'd never make anything that good. It's not that I'm happy you felt like shit.

But lots of us have that feeling you described when we watch your stuff. And it's just somehow helpful to know that even you're one of the best courts on the planet you can still struggle with creative envy, unhelpful comparisons, feeling inferior, etc. To use a Stuart Goldsmithism, that's not really a question, but could you talk about it a bit more, please?

Is that a question? That's not something you can answer in a quick fireway. People are pleased and encouraged by the fact that you also see other comics the way they see you. Yeah, and I see anything that, yeah, it's not even just comedy. You see a film that is like immaculate or an album or whatever, you think, I'm never going to make anything that good.

Let's imagine what Dave Grohl's going to be feeling watching this. With his head on his hands. I'm sorry. With his head and his hands. You've made multiple albums that are going to outlive all of us. I don't want to – Jay Fountain says, I don't want to ask him anything. I just want to say thank you for cold lasagna. It was really important.

He may not accept it, but that show was really helpful for a lot of us struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. Thank you, James. 16 heart emojis. Thank you. 17 heart emojis back at you. There we've covered that. Bill Dewa says he's a shoe-in for any forthcoming Steve Davis biopic.

No, I'm not. No. I auditioned for Steve Davis in the Hurricane Higgins biopic, and I did not get the part. Amazing. What else have you auditioned for that you didn't get? A lot of stuff. That Jedapital, the bubble thing.

The last series of Black Mirror and the part went to Michael Sarah playing Michael Sarah. the Barbie movie, the part went to Will Ferrell. Come on. Like, why they get me in the room? But I like the auditioning though. That's fun. It's learning. Ghostbusters?

Yeah, audition for that. I've got that. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Is that public domain? Yeah, there are people in it. When does it come out? I don't know when it comes out now because of all the strikes and everything's going on.

But like, it'll be out at some point. What was the best bit about filming it? Best bit about filming it. I mean, every day just feels a little bit. Christmasy, doesn't it? Like, can I say stuff about it? Any time you're doing a scene with one of the iconic things from your childhood

that are still in it now. You are like, this is fucking cool. Like, you are just there again, this is great. And there was pretty much every day I'd look at the, you know, the sheet of what we're going to do, the scene where it's set or whatever. Like, you're all, we're going to be in the firehouse. you know this is cool so yeah

it was like it was very fun can you invent a clickbait rumor about the feeling of Ghostbusters to do with where the plot goes and it's actually a real ghost in it at one point it was accidental called it on Kevin

what was his reaction to his Cinderella role having a moment at the Oscars I mean I was actually a bit gutted because I usually got our mutual friend Tom Linen's house to watch the Oscars live

at his Oscar party and that year Either I couldn't make it or he wasn't doing it I couldn't make it I was at my parents, Sam's. And yeah, I just I think I stayed up and I watched some of the Oscars

but I missed, I fell the sleep before my bit. So I missed that and the slap. And then, yeah, the next day it was like, oh God, like all this stuff. But I didn't get to sit as I still hadn't seen it, actually, the, the, the, that Cinderella pop up in the Oscars montage and me being in the clip

but yeah pretty chuffed with it How's your mum? Says Ruth Kilcullen I love hearing about his childhood meals on the pod reminds me of simpler times Oh that's nice She's very well She's a I think

The other day I got sent a photo of my mum eating And my dad eating some deep fried twinkies At the same time And Last one I'm not going to do this one from Donovan Keough-Jones shout Popper Dom's or bread at him.

He loves that. Sarah Mahag says, does he know how good Hekler's welcome is? That's a trick. She's a good question. She's a good question. She actually loves it. Well, I think I do.

I'm like, is this good? And it's not as good as I want it to be yet. but uh i know not maybe no i think until i film them and watch them and edit it the way i want it and watch it i don't really have a thing of like this is how good it is and maybe that's why for a lot of years i do just throw the gigs and stuff because i don't feel like i know how good it is in terms and when i say that i don't mean they're brilliant and i don't know how good it is i mean i literally don't know how if it's good or not and so um

you are more prone to feeling insecure on stage if you think, oh, maybe this is actually shit and the way they're reacting to this now is because it's shit. And so then, you know, throw your toys out of the pram. So like, but when I get to film it, edit it down, watch it back, get it the way I want it, then I'll know how good it is.

Then I feel like it's this, you know, it's the same with writing a book or this audio sitcom, whatever it is, when you get the finished thing, you get to look at it and then I know how good I think it is and some of it falls short and some of it meets my goals with it and whatever it is. So there are certain things

I feel this show is missing at the minute and I'm trying to find and I think that's good. I think if I wasn't doing that at the minute that would be probably quite bad for the show. But I definitely feel like it's worth people's time at the minute. I don't feel like I'm, you know, ripping him awful

been a cheeky little boy thanks for listening enjoy James's face on the big screen if you're going this weekend and we'll be back next week with Joyelle Nicole Johnson at long last