The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - John Kearns 2020: ComCompendium

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Recorded in January 2020, John Kearns is a master at finding pathos in the prosaic, combining clowning and standup in a way that makes absolutely no sense written down. With influences from Jacques Tati to Neil Hamburger, we explored his sense of place within himself, overreaching in his writing, and ambition in his career...Join the Insiders Club at patreon.com/comcompod where you can instantly get access to 30 minutes of exclusive extras including John's brilliant technique for underpinning all his material with genuine pathos, delving into writing for Harry Hill, meeting Chris Morris, and how the spotlight can burn...👉 Complete the ComComPod Survey and sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List!Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ 30 minutes of exclusive extra content with John✅ Early access to new episodes✅ Exclusive membership offerings including a monthly “Stu&A”PLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Catch Up with John:John Kearns is on tour throughout 2026 with Tilting at Windmills, find all the info and more at www.johnkearnscomedy.co.uk.Everything I'm up to:Come and see me LIVE! Find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy.Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Stu here. This is something a bit new. I was chatting recently to producer Callum about how tricky it is in the current podcast ecosystem to revisit certain. episodes from the archive. How do you know? How does you, the listener, know, for example, that eight years ago I interviewed Comedian X, you know, or that someone has a particularly interesting thing to say about how to survive the Edinburgh fringe. That comes up from time to time. So, thanks to your brilliant survey feedback, we're going to start re-releasing some of the most requested episodes. So, join me now as we're hopping back to a time before the world went askew all the way to January 2020 and you can hear, I imagine in our voices and in our hearts and you can imagine our wet little eyes as myself and John Kearns of episode 323. John and I just

didn't know what was about to befall us. There's probably a fun game you could play whereby you could find the single most recent, the single podcast released nearest to the start of the pandemic that had no idea. There's somewhere out there will be a graph of the schism between how upbeat the presenters are and how nearly it was all about to happen. I don't know if that's a fun game. But nonetheless, we are revisiting John Kearns, Isaac, who very kindly answer the survey. Hello, Isaac. Hello to, and it's hello to Isaac. This is a half a joke at best. But nonetheless, Isaac says, and I think this is really insightful, I really appreciate this. Jordan Brooks and John Kearns are two episodes linked in my mind as they both showed

strong insight and understanding of what was special about them and what they should be doing. They also, he says, they also both draw influences from disparate places into their acts. I love hearing how non-comedy art impacts comedians. Very good second point. That first point, you're absolutely right. They both have, Kearns and Brooks, both have Brooks, I don't know what calls him Brooks, Kearns, everyone calls him Kearns, or the Colonel, and Jordan Brooks both totally get what's special about them and they totally get what they should be doing.

I think that's great. Thank you, Isaac. So now, with influences from Jacques Tattee to Neil Hamburger, we're going to explore John Kearns' sense of place within himself. We'll talk about overreaching in his writing and ambition in his career. And if you're an insider, we're also going to re-release 30 minutes of exclusive extras, which include John's brilliant technique for underpinning all of his material with genuine pathos. That's so good. We'll talk about him writing for Harry Hill, meeting Chris Morris,

and we'll find out a little bit about how the spot. can burn. You can get access to that for any £3 a month or more at patreon.com slash comcompod. And if you want more of these, let us know. And there's still time to give your feedback on your favourite episodes and all your other thoughts about the pod. Goethegolsmith.com slash survey. Here is John Kearns. What you do on stage is like, I've read a bunch of reviews of it recently, which I don't, you know, when I'm kind of preparing for a guest to read loads of reviews

as much as anything just to remind me of what happened in which show and stuff like that just to jog my memory. And I had to look up both the words quotidian and prosaic

because someone who both appeared in someone's review of what you do, which as I understand those words mean every day and in regular prose.

I think... Oh, right. I think the point they were making was that everything you... Like your character on stage is do we call

him a character it's you in a wig and a skull cap like a tonsia it's a persona but it's a persona but it's a person

I had to look up tonsure did you in a review I didn't know what that was I didn't know what that was um

it well it's it I'm not a character in that I change my name um deliberately

where Sahia wig that looks like it's I'm trying to fool the audience yes the teeth aren't you know they they flew out the other night halfway through a bit you know it's very um I'm not trying to trick the audience that I am a different person I'm an exaggeration of myself okay a persona um but you know in any meetings with TV I'm a I'm a character, yeah. But, you know, they've got to be some give. I obviously will get on to that

and the nature of what you do being so live. And like I always think of pappies. I always think of pappies being sweaty in a room and looking daft. And like they have a similar, you know, you in the teeth and the shirt has the same quality to that kind of, like, if this gets put on TV,

Will it look bad rather than deliberately bad? Yeah, it's, it's, well, I haven't, um, it, well, I haven't done a lot of TV. I've done a handful of things. Okay. And, uh, I think it looks funny, but it looks bad. We'll, we'll come back to that. we'll come back to that what I want to talk about in the moment is the

it's you so you don't refer to your persona on stage as him like when you're talking about it socially you just talk about me on stage and do that no no it's me like I look I look back at things and the best thing I did was never

changed my name that was the best thing I did because because it's like say I did another show and just completely reinvented myself it would still be I think in comedy the most important thing is your name your name you know if people word a mouth at a festival who should we go and see they'll say your name and all this like it's it's the number it's the thing that will not change in my career so I could try something completely

completely different or stick to what I'm doing at the moment or, you know, try something on radio or tell you whatever way my career would go, I'm glad I didn't, you know, give myself a character name, for example. I was interested listening to Dot Brown, your interview with him, and he said his big regret was changing his name. Yes. So yeah, I think that's something I'm glad I didn't do. And what you do on stage is so, like it looks like it shouldn't work

and you play with the tension between whether it's working, with what it is. Because to describe it to someone, like just imagine we've got some listeners in Portland, Oregon, right, just to pick a random American city. Actually, Portland is a terrible example because I think it would work there. Let's say Boston. Like, to someone, like, what we're saying is a man in a white shirt and some black jeans

who is wearing, like, joke shop, buck tooth, teeth, and a tonsure, which is like a medieval monk's wig-type skull cap. And you're often quite quiet for a long time. You pause longer than I think. I think most other comics, I think that's fair. And my point is that, like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of stuff in there. But my point is that from the perspective of someone who hadn't seen it,

like if you walked, if you're an American tourist and you accidentally walk into the wrong room, and your gig is happening. There's a room in, off Hyde Park. For some reason, the stage is by a glass door. And there were people walking, and it's like right in the front of the shop. I don't know.

Shop. I mean, I'm giggling in shops, probably. But they were stood outside. You know, at Green Parks, when a tourist. I don't know, about four or five tourists, just a group of them staring at me. Like, they can't hear me. They just see that, they're just thinking, well,

what the fuck's going on in there? What could possibly be happening? Yeah. Yeah. That's good fun, yeah. And what you do seems to be, rooted in finding something kind of philosophical or magical or ethereal or just something like that, something like theatrical and wonderful in really mundane things.

Like I imagine you living, like you, the persona, I imagine you living alone in a bed sit in the 70s almost do you know what I mean it's kind of rooted in this this like the texture of the character is like really quotidian um

yeah I think I'm I my big love as a kid was sitcoms and I think if you think of the best sitcoms

their greatest strength is their sense of place and I think that's really important as a stand-up you haven't got anything else up there it's just you so what is important is rooting

I think a sense of place whether it be wherever you're talking about but also, you know, to speak maybe a sense of place within yourself they need to know who you are and where you are and so the best way for me to do that

I sometimes think is describing details of rooms I'm in or you know, describing people that I might pepper my shows with the details that they have for example so in a show once I described my nan's house and she had a frog-shaped soap holder

and the soap would sit in his mouth and you know I'd kind of wonder what had he said to have that kind of have to have that kind of punishment and all that But, you know, these are all things, most of the stuff is true. Everything is, I'd say, 80, 90% of what I say on stage is true. It's just exaggerated and false and lies. I don't put, Clive James, he died yesterday, we were recording this.

And he was asked about his memoirs. And he said, oh, they're all true. they're all lies but they're all true lies and I was like that's well that's what stand-up is it's all bollocks you know but

it's exaggerated it's you know true lies I think that's pretty that sums it up yeah sounds lovely and deep as well well I mean he said it I just

he said a lot of fun of things he said he said a sense of humor is just common sense dancing yeah man you know bloody hell and I think he had

I think he went out with Princess Diana as well but he never spoke about that oh that's even cooler I know I know I admired him oh I'm the same yeah I don't mention it

either first time first time I mentioned it um Do you, are you aspiring to a similar sense of, like that, that Clive James thing, a sense of humor is common sense dancing? Yeah. Do you aspire to that kind of, like that's what I mean when I say kind of like finding magnificent things in the commonplace? Yeah. Well, like, you know, we, life is predominantly mundane. you spend most of your life doing extremely boring things and then once in a while

there'll be a you know a peak of happiness or a trough of sadness you know that you have to wallow through but most of the time it's complete and a banal kind of you know mediocrity but I think I think there's something extremely funny about that and I there's also something very funny in finding something as simple as having a a a timetable for using different colours of I know washing up liquid you know that being a bigger thing in your life i think that's funny just having small you know everyone has their little things like attempts to kind of regulate the chaos yeah well it just that's what that's what we're all doing and it's just uh i think i think i think you uh with with my writing i um i overreach with

maybe an ambition to come up with something grand and where I fall where I fail is the joke so you know I buy I buy loads of you know I buy loads of you know books that I know I'm not I know I'm never going to read but it's it's it's that idea that that character that I uh that is just quite funny you know

failure and suffering are kind of like they're a huge part of clowning they're a huge part of comedy you know that whoever it is that's it was it Milton Burle who is the quote about tragedy is if I fall over comedies if you fall down a hole and die I think something like that I may have misattributed it and murdered the quote as well but you know what I mean it's about failure it's about

suffering. And those things, I think I've brilliantly put the idea that you aspire to sort of philosophical greatness or depth. And it's in the failure to achieve that, that you're funny, which then itself is a kind of success. Yeah. I mean, it is. It's not a kind of success. It is success. Because you're being poignant and thoughtful and meaningful. Like your shows, we really feel something in your shows? Yeah, well, I think when I'm writing, the biggest thing I think about is

what is my attitude here? Because when thinking about your attitude with a bit, you will then get the feeling of it. The material, like, it's a Woody Allen quote, which I think, you know, the material must come second to you being a funny,

person. Material, of course it's important and writing is important, but attitude and character, feeling when you're on stage, posture, how you hold yourself. Those are the building blocks that the material will come. Anyone can write, whether it be good or bad, but anyone can write. But to be funny, well, that's rare. You know, funny bones. I don't know who has, you know, you look back at my comedic heroes, say, you know, it's going back. But people like Tommy Cooper or Tony Hancock or people like that, if someone's listening to this now is immediately picturing them.

They're picturing them as a 60-year-old. You know, it's taken a long time to get at that point. And to learn how to be funny. The material is second to them just being funny, and that's the aim. That really is the aim. I think of you as someone with funny bones. Like, my wife does an impression of you saying,

look, when you're talking about going behind the counter in a sweet shop in this show, I can't remember the name of the show, it's the one with the racehorse. Yeah, don't worry they're here. Don't worry they're here. She does an impression of you walking behind the counter and going, it felt good, like a really good impression of you.

Well, I think it's, I think, I kind of felt I knew I was under something when people impersonated me. Yeah. I think if someone, like, if you can be recognized by a silhouette or someone can do an impression, of you, then, you know. You might not be any good.

At least you're memorable. At least you're different enough to recognise. We're never seeing him again. And we know what it looks like. So that thing, that moment, like that's in kind of our, in our relationship, that's one of those little jokes. Do you know what I mean? That you go, oh yeah, that comes up from the time of time.

It's lovely. And I was just, I was thinking about that. I was just reflecting on that. Like, what is it that's funny? about that moment. You're describing, standing behind, like, you know, getting to supplant someone briefly, getting to experience, to step into the shoes of another person, and you're sort of confiding in us, sort of in confidence, that's what confining me, and you're sort of secretly sharing with us that it felt good to do that. And none of the components of that really are funny,

but that's the kind of funny bones quality whereby just thinking of it makes me laugh out loud. Like, what is it that's funny about, and this is an insane question, but what is it, what's funny about you, and how did you unlock that? And how do you unlock that? Well, that particular line is, um, so I think, so there's a tonal shift there. I, I, I set this scene where I'm running this sweet shop. and you know it's a kind of i'm giving myself up to i think i'm admiring how um how i'm

how much i'm enjoying the wooden counter i think that's what feels good but um i guess it's it's like a vulnerability it's like um uh i'm letting people in by by really showing what i like that what i like being a very bizarre thing um to answer you a question about how do you untap that i mean we did a clowning course we did with dr brown in 2012 and uh and uh i'd just done the pleasance reserves which is a showcase show in edinburgh where you get taken up and all that and um i mean i was i was doing some it went up and down you know one night it was great the other you know i mean up and down up and then afterwards i went back to work because i was had a full-time job at the time and i was like i kind of had a moment where i just thought you know

if this is going to be how i spend all my holidays all my leave most of my evenings i need to but like go big or go home kind of thing so I remember I applied for Dr. Brown's course that was like 200 quid or something for a weekend I was like I loved what he'd done and so I went right you know just go and have some fun

with that and he just it was a real it was very important to me those few days because I remember one thing that made me laugh he said you know the whole idea you're coming on stage trying to make people laugh

and he wasn't interested in that. He'd kind of shout. No one gives a shit about your shitty idea, all that. And that really hit home to me because I, again, going back to that material thing, I think I was being material led rather than being what I just think makes me funny, lead, if that makes sense.

And also there was something about, and it's not something we do in this country, I think, but I loved learning. He is, you know, a phenomenal conversation. clown and I loved learning I loved being in that room and it being no one being guilty about learning about clowning but taking it very seriously like how I've always seen comedy you know and to be in that room and then to have someone like that teaching it gave me the confidence

to then go on and then the next year I did my first show Was that weekend course a breakthrough for you because prior to that you hadn't Well I had, I was

It's weird I found a picture actually from 2011 where I'm doing it We did the wig and the same Yeah and I'm Yeah but I don't remember I mean, it's kind of weird, but basically my brother's then girlfriend's brother was doing some course, some photography course, where he had to follow people that did two different things in their lives, very two different things.

So he took pictures of me working in Parliament where I used to work, and then in evenings he'd follow me around doing gigs. And I found these pictures and I was like, well, hang on, he took these before I... So I was doing it earlier than I remember, but if I kind of put it all in order doing Phil's cause, it made me go, right, fuck it. And also, you know, I was doing an hour in Edinburgh and I looked at, going back to that thing I was saying about overreaching, in February of 2013 when I did my first show, my aim was to write. a show based on Dr. Strangelove but for the modern era. Okay. You know, that didn't happen.

It was me in a wig of four C talking about going to Berlin on my own and then, you know, so, but that's where the title came from. Sight Gags for Perverts was a title. It was a review of Dr. Strange Love. that Kubrick nicked and said, oh, I'm going to make a film called that. And he never did. So anyway, like,

so yeah, the idea of, you know, not quite reaching your ambition, certainly encapsulated in that first year. But, yeah, I mean, that course gave me, I think, the confidence. Did we, what do you remember specifically about that course? I've suddenly had a memory of us walking down the street. It was at the Soho.

theatre were we kind of was he making us do something outside oh yeah fucking hell i mean i didn't like all of it there was a lot of stuff there was a lot of there was a lot of pain i remember thinking this is the least painful clown course i've ever done i've done lots of clown courses over the years and i and never really i don't think i've had that breakthrough of cracking it and going like in my tell me if this is accurate for you but how i've done you perceive it happening to other people and how you hear about it and how I talk to people about it on this podcast, you go and somehow punish yourself sufficiently that you realize something. It's almost like a moment of ecstatic, almost martyrdom where you're like,

if I just can just give up enough of my protection of my dignity, do you know what I mean? Like there's something that I don't feel I can ever quite contact, which is like I'm just too ashamed somehow or I'm too unwilling to. to admit that I'm ashamed or something like that. And I feel like some people can just click and go, oh, oh, it's that. And then suddenly they just flash. And you just go, oh, they get it.

They've had a taste of what it is that's funny about them. Did you, I mean, does that bear any resemblance at all to any experience that you had on that course? Well, I remember not being very good at it. I remember thinking, I remember failing. but so Daniel Simonson I started out in that kind of 2008

him Nish Kumar, Susie Ruffle Louis Armaland embalam PJ's gear The comedy stop so cool because it's next to the comedy store in the listings You had to call it I remember he had to

His number was in time out, and it said, you can only call on Tuesday between 11 and 1. And I was like, okay. So I remember calling him, and he denied the gig. He went, I went, hi, this is this PJ? Why? Just, you know, I'm looking, wondering if I could have a gig. I don't run a gig. Oh, your number's in time out.

Nope, not me. It's like this test. So you turn up, you're like, well, I'm going to turn up And it was like a test Oh my God, that's hilarious Mad, mad But I remember Daniel Simonson After we'd done this course

He came to the We're having drinks in the bar And he came along I went oh hi Dan And he'd been at Golié with Phil And he said, oh how was Phil And I was like, oh it's amazing I really enjoyed it

And he was like, yeah I was planning to come along I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, cool. And then he went, I'd love to watch Phil Teach. I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, he was bad. I was like, what do you mean? He was bad.

He was like, no, no, no. He was not good at it. And I just, that was very healthy to hear. Yeah. Because you do put people on pedestals. Of course. And it was just very funny. You know, he's obviously.

fantastic. Sure, sure, sure. But it really made me laugh that Daniel was like, nah. He shouldn't be teaching. I wonder if there's something about the willingness to be bad. Do you feel a willingness to be bad to take genuine risks? Do you still feel that you're on stage taking genuine risk?

Because it looks like the shows that you do are kind of forged in the crucible of genuine risk of failure. Like, you know, you're not. not playing it safe as a comic. I don't think you could describe you as playing it safe. No, I don't, I don't think I'm a safe pair of ads. I mean, I get me a safe, but similarly, that's not quite what I mean. No, I think so, you know, when you're creating a show, it's forged in previews.

And previews are bad. Previews are shocking. but what usually happens is there's a moment where it's going terribly and you're up there and instinct kicks in you just go I need to save this otherwise this is this is really bad and something comes up touch wood but something has always come up so if you keep throwing yourself into those situations

although it's tough I mean the last show that I've done what I'm doing it now as I speak it's got it's got the most jokes in it that I've had in a show and it's taken me

kind of six years I think to really be really see the importance of a joke because there's bits in the show I'm like oh thank God this bit's coming up Like, it's just, it's a joke. Or else, you know, my first show, I got a review where it was a nice thing to say, but it was like, it's kind of weird how this show is so funny,

considering there's no jokes in it. So, yeah, I don't know, really. I mean, the show you're doing in the moment, double take and fade away. It's a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece, John It's incredible That's a big word No, I'm very happy with it

And yeah No, it's been interesting Because I'm doing it Like talking to you now I'm doing it at Soho Theatre And it's the first time I've ever done a show Where Press Night has been in London

Usually it's in Edinburgh Then you just kind of flog it Whereas now it's like I felt the pressure here And it's been interesting like um yeah it feels i'm very proud of the show i'm very proud of it does it does the pressure of something like press night affect the performance and the risk and the pace and the the the pregnancy of the pauses and stuff like that i i think i'd be lying to you i like to know if people

are in i read everything and I know reviews, as I've heard you say, are not for us. It's not gospel, it's just an opinion. No, I know. Well, they're not for us. But I am interested to see they're about us. And I'm interested to know if there's 200 words about me in a national newspaper. I need to know what people are reading about me.

Oh, yeah. My position is mostly a position of security to stick my fingers in my ears. but do it in a lofty way somehow. Do you mean? Like really, I aspire really cravenly to being able to read what someone thinks about me in a national newspaper and simply not care, but I know that I won't be able to.

No, impossible. So instead, I deny their existence entirely. And that's not a position of power. No matter how many times I say it on the distribution network I've created for myself, it's really not. I guess it isn't, but... I don't know, I'll be honest, you know, if I, like this week, last few days I've had press in.

I think yesterday was the last day. And, you know, I don't do much telly. I don't do much, apart from live, and I'm on tour. And so, you know, someone out in the sticks or somewhere, they're going to need a good review. Yeah. So I'm really, I'm pumping myself up. I'm going, this has to be amazing and I give it my all

and I tell myself I'm going to leave nothing out there because I can't bear the idea that you know because it's, you know, my dad called me the other day and he was excited because he, you know, the idea that he can go around the corner by the Times and read the great review and all that

and I love that. That's absolutely fantastic. So I kind of got to give it my own. and I really, you know, maybe I'll listen back to this in 10, 20 years and be like, oh, but I do care about those things. So what's the relationship between the will to succeed and the permission to fail or to risk? Um, well, they go hand in hand, they dovetail. There's no. you've got to fail to succeed. Like, you know, they're not,

previews are different, audiences are different, but the finished article. But I don't know, failure, you know, if I do a bit of crowdwork or something that just bombs, it's good for pace. You know, light and shade. It shows, you know, I joke about it

but I kind of say you know who wants wall to wall laughs you know I'm not that desperate I mean I don't

I don't you know I don't you know I'm not interested in I don't mind so what if I fail in for the people it doesn't matter

that doesn't matter to me at all really I'm failing all the time then there's a problem. But there's something very funny. You know, last night, I completely stopped the gig because people were talking.

And then I just, I knew what was coming next. And I was like, I think that's going to get a good laugh. So I just ground the gig into the ground. I just grind it down. Because you knew your next bit. Yeah, yeah. So secure. Yeah, I thought, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's fun. Because the audience is like, There's the thing that the audience are looking at, you go, well, he must know what he's doing. Yeah, sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't.

It's fine. I want to come back and talk about jokes. You touched on the fact that this show has more jokes in it, and I want to talk about the writing of those jokes. But just while we're on the subject of texture, talk to me about your relationship with your director and what sorts of things he draws out of his. John Britton.

Yes, John Britann. Olivier winning playwright. And, yeah, I went to uni with him. So we've known each other for, I don't know, 14 years now. Well, there's many things, many things. he so you know if if if you're wondering whether so i basically he so number one thing is he's a very funny man he's very funny he's he's given me a few jokes you know uh it's it's a trust thing you know we sit down and he's my mate he's very talented he comes to

previews and he also has seen all my work before he knows who I am he knows my flaws and you know he also knows maybe what I'm avoiding or what I'm not talking about it's a conversation so you know whenever anyone here's a director of stand-up I think they immediately go well you know how can you direct stand-up and it's like obviously it's not like directing a play or a movie it's it's a conversation and obviously i mean he's very good at the actual uh technical side of things like lighting and all that he's you know he's very good at that but um you know if anyone performing or uh is doing a show in edinburgh is debating about whether to get a director it is 100% the thing you should do and again it goes back to what i think

we do wrong in this country in America they all help each other out it's all about you know all these great comedians every single one of them have come from

you know writer rooms or improv groups over here it's like we wear it as a badge of honour that you don't talk to anyone in your day life and you're a genius

it's like no that's very unhealthy talk to people you know like get someone's opinion in and trust them and it will make your work better so I'm very lucky in that you know

it turns out that you know one of my good friends is also someone who he directed Richard Gad's show this year at baby reindeer and like I said

he's won on Olivier for his playwriting and stuff so I think we prop each other up in that respect, in that we, yeah, his opinion is, well, I won't say priceless, because it does cost me, but he's pretty, he's pretty, mate's rates, he's pretty good. What's the biggest change that has come about in one of your shows or your approach to your work generally? because of working with John.

So the show this year is, well, so last year, personal life, terrible. You know, not a nice time. And, you know, when you're looking to write a show, say, the year after, you're thinking, well, you know, all my shows are about, my life, really. But I don't write, I'm not literal.

I don't just put it out there because I don't want to and because I don't find it funny. So, and yeah, so he kept pushing for me to mention it, what happened.

And I do, but I just do it with one sentence. and would I have done that without him pushing me? I don't know. I don't know. But, yeah, he knows what's important. And also he probably, you know, he knows what's important. And so, yeah, that would be the thing, I think.

I want to respect your privacy and also that moment in the show, which is just an incredibly powerful moment in the show. So I'm not going to, I know the listener will be going, but what happened? And we're not going to delve into it anymore than you want to. But I think that moment in the show is an extraordinary moment. Well, it's, you know, like the title. is on that as well

double take and fade away it's a name of a book I just nicked it but it also has a it also is a reference to that moment in the show you know obviously

and so the moment where it comes in the show is it's my oldest self talking to my younger self and just telling him what's going to happen and so you know know, it's life. But the important thing is that that is followed with a big laugh, with something else.

You know, I have to, you know, you've got to make sure that happens to keep the train on the tracks. But yeah, you know, it's life and you have to, that's what you make shows about. Is there a cathartic element to talking about it on stage, to that being part of it? Does it mean something for you emotionally to mention that on stage over and above the weight of the piece of work you've created? I don't think I do talk about it. I just say it. I think if I look back at all my shows,

and I think it's the reason why I don't think I could go back and film them. They're very much who I was then. my first show I'm 27 I'm working full time I'm thinking this is maybe my last roll of the dice because I think you know otherwise I need to quit my job and then what's going I mean I don't know

I look back at that show and I'm like yeah that really is who I was the second show exactly the same third this show I always think about that of course you want the show to be good but if they are absolutely

who you were then, then that's a success. So this show that I'm doing now is very much me now. So to answer your question, because that's recent history, that is me and so it's important to me and so I'm being truthful. I don't put too much of a premium on truth in comedy. I think it gets in the way of a funny thing.

But, you know, that's, to go back to what you're saying, that's what John is good at. He's going, look, you know, my show is all about staring at ceilings, looking out windows. I didn't have, you know, there was no work going on last year. And, you know, you're rolling around your flat and where you live going, what am I going to do? That's what the show is really about.

So, um, Yeah, it's kind of, you know, that's where I'm at. So if that's what the show is, then good. What drives you to be funny? Like, what as a kid made you think, made you listen to comedy stuff and think, I want to do that and be that, rather than just I want to enjoy that in the same way as I enjoy music or a sport or whatever? You know, you ask yourself that question when you're traveling to Corby

thinking, well, this is a choice you made. I don't know, really. My dad, you know, my dad, like, you know, my dad, like, you know, car trips were listening. to you, I'm sorry I haven't a clue and I remember the Woody Allen basement tapes I remember he had Mike Reed live at the balladium and he put it on

and my mum would be going mad telling him to turn it off because it's blue but you know and he had Frank Skinner VHS's and Jethro you know Jethro yeah I don't know his work actually

I don't know I've seen the posters and from there I feel like I've got a good idea of what the work is which is an awfully patronising thing to say but I think I'm probably right he's a Cornish father

who tells Shaggy dogs and very blue stories but I don't know funny stuff and it was just I don't know you kind of it was so important

to just my upbringing I suppose just it was very much it's very much what I it was it's just it's what I spent all my money on and I used to

the biggest thing that I'm very grateful of actually is that I listened to a lot of comedy before I saw it you know I listened to all of like the Richard Pryor Warner Brothers albums before I even seen it saw him um 40 towers fools and horses black had a

I had the audio tapes Yeah, right. Bill Cosby's routine about brothers that goes on for... I mean, I know I'm listening people here that. But, you know, he's got a 20-minute bit about brothers on an album, which is extraordinary. And, you know, the first stand-up I saw, I think, was Eddie Isard.

Someone lent me a VHS at school, but Radio 2, Bonnc House, opened his archive, every Saturday lunchtime and played comedy clips. My abiding memory of comedy till I was about 15, I think, was audio, all audio, Derek and Clive. The glee, and you see it with people on trains, listen to podcasts, funny podcasts, and you know they want to laugh, but it's that there is no greater laugh than that.

And I remember my dad making me listen to Derek and Clive, and I was young, and I had the headphones. on and they start swearing and I remember not knowing whether I should laugh or not because I'd be referenced it, I'd be acknowledging that I know that these are rude words

you know, you know how kids are I mean, I don't know but I think that is such I think that is such a rich important thing to listen to comedy because that's how you learn timing and you listen to the words

and you know you picture it in your head It's all up to you. So, and that was interesting with sitcoms because, yeah, I watched, sorry, I listened to all of, I think, Only Fools and Horses series two on tape. Because, and then the VHS came out, I don't know, years later, but.

Yeah. So it's bizarre to watch it back going. So you were listening, it was presumably abridged for the recording. A bridge, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the Forty Towers one, it has, I think it had Andrew Sacks commenting on, you know. In this point, he's hitting a car with a stick. Exactly.

He's beating the shit out of me in the kitchen. I'm lying there's a 10-year. I'm like, right, okay. But yeah, I don't know. And then I remember, but things like, it's so funny how you think back to what you read and listened to. I remember Stephen Merchant in an interview saying, he said he never thought that he couldn't do comedy

because he grew up and went, well, who's going to be the next people to do that? I'll be one of those people. And I remember reading that, thinking, oh, yeah, who's going to be the next person? And, you know, I never, I hadn't been to a comedy club until I was performing at one, you know, so I didn't know what stand up was in that respect. But yeah, I don't know, it's why it's why. what I've always loved.

Talking about sitcoms, and I was wondering about the richness of your persona and the rhythm and the texture and those sorts of things. They're quite characterful things, aren't they? Like, I think my stand-up, whatever richness is there, sort of happens accidentally because I'm trying to make a point or describe something.

Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Rather than you're a bit more like, the medium is the message. Oh, yes, yes, yes. No, it's the message. Yeah.

Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Have you got like a spec script in your back pocket, which is the you from the stage, is your persona in the sitcom of their life? Well, I've done, you know, I've done numerous taster tapes for things. Okay. And I did, I've attempted to get things away,

but it hasn't happened. Why not? Why not? Why do you think not? Because you're like in terms of career, I don't mean career. I mean, in terms of the industry, you would think that with your historical, you know, the first person ever. Well, it's funny, they call you the first, but you remain the only person ever to win the newcomer award and then the best show award in consecutive years. So one would imagine you're not short of a meeting.

Or, you know, who... Well, you'd be surprised. What? You mean the Edinburgh Festival doesn't mean anything? Yeah, come on. You'd be surprised. I can't answer that. It's, it's, that's not for me.

It's not for me to say why things haven't happened in that respect. I've been given, I've been given certain reasons. and um i don't mean to i don't mean to suggest that things haven't happened i don't mean to go like i'm not i'm not coming at this from the point of view of uh why aren't you more successful well i do often ask people why aren't you more successful but i like to ask that to people who are already very successful because i'm sure it worries at them somehow and i'm interested in the those things like why are you told that people aren't going to make a thing that you think is brilliant

well you know i mean i probably uh there's probably there's probably it works twofold isn't i mean i'm probably maybe guarded about it giving an idea away too much and i'm quite sure the great thing about doing live i don't show anyone anything maybe apart from john but even then i'll only show them through previews i can't sit down and go through material with some one or go, or does this bit work? I need the pressure of it doing it live. And then when you're pitching it in a meeting or an idea for TV or whatever, I guess I'm quite guarded, which isn't a good idea.

But also, I guess, you know, I don't know, they need to compare it as something else. They need to see what it might be like. And I don't know. I'll keep trying with certain ideas and all that I'll keep trying

I imagine there are people writing and making things on TV and producing comedians producing things on TV who are very willing to compromise in the name of getting a thing away yeah well like you know so the thing is so

I you know so things like shorts, blaps, feeds, all that kind of stuff. I've been very wary of them because I'm like, well, I'm going to give you my idea. But looking at what has been picked up, they usually go, right, the absurd, silly stuff.

That's enough now. So I've basically kind of gone, I don't want to do that. I want the full scope of something. Which, you know, it's a very, that's a very high wire game to play. Because why would anyone do it? You need a movie. Well, you know, I, have you seen, you know, Jacques Tatie?

Yeah. Have you seen Playtime? No. that is the absolute epitome of visual comedy that is unreal there's a scene that goes on for about 40 minutes in a restaurant at the end it is that I mean it is mind blowing how funny and how good that is it's a dance it's it's that is the epitome of comedy that 40 minutes It's jazz There's no words It's unbelievable that thing I like that again

I like the ambition of that I like the scope It's huge I mean I'm not sitting there saying I'm going to make a movie I won't make a short but I will make a feature bill With a 40 minute one shot

One take ending Who wants it? Well, Neil Hamburger. Yeah. He made a movie. Entertainment. Yeah. Fantastic.

It's as easy as that. We talk about it in detail in the episode of Fortnite ago, I think. I'm halfway through, Stuart. I am. I'm just using that as a shout-out to the listener in case they don't know who Neil Hamburger is. But, yeah, look, you know. I still, I don't know. That's why I think it's live is always the most important thing.

Because that will, that is what you have complete control over. Yeah. And that is what, uh, I know I have an audience for. And, uh, everything, anything else is a bonus. I mean, of course I'd love something else. but I can't complain in that respect. Could you, I'm going to... Okay, this is a thought experiment.

If you were... That's just half a thought experiment and half a question. Something about... Let's lower the standards of the question. So here are some broad concepts. I'm just going to put that in the air. Try and turn this into a thing you can answer. Like, if there were like a sort of...

of supercharged kind of marketable version of what you wanted to do. That's not what I mean either. I'm just with the idea of you making your version of Playtime, something that you love as much as you love Playtime, a feature film with you the persona, to make that happen, and let's assume for the sake of this question that that's your ultimate dream, which it might not be. But to make that happen, you would need some pretty heavy artillery in terms of self-belief and the ability to go into meetings shouting about how great you are. I imagine. Or someone who was prepared to do that on your behalf with like wizard level. You know, like to make, like the reason why I'm thinking this is a fucking pig's ear of a question. You started talking about playtime and I thought,

Is that marketable? Can we imagine that happening today? Could there be a silent movie? Well, it only happened because the French government are very good at funding their arts. Totally. And so that's why that happened. I've got a bit on this. It's in the last five minutes of my tour show. Oh, really? Currently available for the next couple of months. Please come to caution. Yeah, they do a payment called The Intermittance, which is a payment to artists. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't want to tread on the bit, guys. Yeah, they did it here in the 80s. Yeah. When you hear these comedians say they lived in London on... I was just on the dole. Yeah. Doing stand-up all the time. Yeah, that sounds great, mate.

Well done. My first thought was, is that marketable? Will anyone make that? And then I was thinking, it is. It is. You can dream it. You can do it, especially with kind of new media in the internet and Kickstarter.

you know, any kind of thing like that, like, what is the next project for you? And do you, are you interested in letting go temporarily of the ease? I don't mean live work's easy, but those elements of live work, which are, have the idea, don't show you working out, turn up and do it. Do you have a hunger or an ambition or a drive to do something bigger than that that is harder to make happen? yeah without doubt but I just have

I have to want to do it it's that simple I haven't turned down much but I'm not going to do something if I don't want to do it so I mean that's the answer So yes I have ambition to do all these things

And I don't see why I can't or why I won't But you know if people get in the way Or if it becomes to If it moves away from what I want to do Then It won't happen again which is why live is you can do anything

you can do it and no one gets in the way so you know I I'll give it all a go I'm not trying to convince you to make a film I'm just interested in there

pyramid scheme give me 100 quid just write a check out I'm just interested in the you were talking about overreaching, like artistically overreaching. Like what's the next model? Like if you think, okay, Louisa Omulan

wants to go to Broadway and become a massive star. Like ultimately, it's all about getting to that goal, for example, to, you know, I'm not going to her for a few years about her ambition, but I understand that's the angle that she's, you know, that's her aim. What do you want to do? like dream scenario dream

magic lamp genie sort of scenario like what could you what would be your absolute dream project if you had limitless resources wow in the world of artistic

not ending world hunger which I assume you were just about to say um well I mean it's that's I mean it's a you know it's a big question it's a huge question isn't it what do you want

I'm very fortunate in that I make a living from live from stand up I love I've done a few gigs in old West End theaters and I love I love the romance of that I'm extremely sentimental and uh you know soppy so I love the you know I'd like to be able to keep doing live where it gets to a point where I could

you know walk through the stage door of a west end theater and be like I'm doing a run here that's pretty cool to me and then you know as as for other things you know I've

I've got a radio show on Christmas Day on Radio 4 this year and that's been great working with an amazing producer and production company and I've used old recordings of my family Christmas dinners

I recorded them in 2011 and 2012 without them knowing because I'm that guy I did it because I remember really going to interview with Peter K and he said he used to record his family and then he'd listen to them and he'd write down all their sayings

and the cadences. Jeez. So I thought, oh, I'll do that with mine. Mine was in absolute silence. And then, you know, my grandmother trying to remember the fish shop, Harry Ransden, and no one at the table knows what she's talking about. So I listened back to it and I went,

well this isn't what I wanted but then when I did a Christmas show at the Batter C Arts Centre a few years ago I was like hang on I've got these tapes so I played them in between stand-up and now they're going out on Christmas Day on Radio 4 so I like that I've moved from live

to radio with that medium so the idea to answer your question very simply is to find a way of doing what I do on stage on a screen somehow I'm 32 it might take another 10 years but

it'll be fun working out Are you happy? Am I happy? I mean I knew this was coming obviously I'm okay. I think, yeah, happiness is,

I think to be okay is fine. Like, that's a great place to be. And I'm happy, yeah, every day something happens that makes me happy. Sounds like I'm just wanking, but, you know. Like, are you happy? he's like asking, you know, are you sad? Imagine, imagine, I don't know anyone who's happy all the time.

Christ almighty. You couldn't hang out with them. Yeah, I'm fine, which is, I'll take that.