The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - John Tothill

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

John Tothill is one of the most exciting stand-ups to come out of the UK in recent years. Debuting in 2023, he’s now on his third show with This Must Be Heaven - the story of his near death experience and an underwhelming cruise. In this episode we discuss:the brutal truth about moving from open mics to pro gigswhy early WIPs are often funnier than complete showsthe loneliness of being trapped on a cruise ship after bombing every nightwhy crowd work makes him uncomfortablescaling material up for bigger rooms while supporting Alan Daviesand we find out if John Tothill is happy…Join the Insiders Club at Patreon.com/ComComPod where you can instantly WATCH the full episode and get access to 15 minutes of exclusive extras including:the realisation that not everyone will get your material, but the right people really willwhat trait is most likely to obstruct successwhy “doing the work” often looks like not doing the work at alland the fear about where the world goes next…👉 Sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok.Catch Up with John: You can see John Tothill: This Must Be Heaven tomorrow at Mach (if you’re reading this as it’s released), London on 22nd May and in Edinburgh this summer. Find all the dates at campsite.bio/johntothill. Also, you can keep-up-date with John on Instagram, @johntothill.Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod:✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ 15 minutes of exclusive extra content with John✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including weekly(ish) Stu&AsPLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE including dates in Mach this weekend, LA next week and lots of other places after then! Find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy. Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.Get in touch: If you’re listening and thinking ‘I’d love to work with ComComPod on getting something out there’ or ‘there’s someone you should absolutely have on’ - drop us an email at [e-mail]! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, welcome back to the show. I'm Stuart Goldsmith. This is the Comedians, Comedian podcast. And today I'm talking to lovely, brilliant John Tot Hill. I'm very, very excited to have him on the show. He's a pal and a wonderful, like a properly wonderful wordsmith of a comic. He's got that brilliant connection between what he says and how he says it. And his jokes are fantastic. And this is an absolute treat. He debuted in 2023. And he's now on his third show, which is called This Must Be He Must Be He. heaven and it's the story of his near-death experience and an underwhelming cruise. He's also supported people like Emma Ciddy and Alan Davis on tour and he was on eight out of ten cats does countdown and it says here this American life and I've got to tell you I didn't know that

so we won't talk about that at all unless we did talk about it and I've also forgotten that we've talked about it but I don't think so. In the first half John and myself are going to talk about the brutal truth about moving from open mics to pro gigs. We'll talk about surviving brushes with death and then brushes with crews. We'll talk about building a persona that gives audiences a caffeine hit and we will discuss, I think our mutual belief that early whips are often funnier than finished shows.

We'll talk about the tension in stand-up between art and value for money, face value entertainment and all the rest of it. And on the subject of value for money, this independently produced free podcast that is made by only three people then brought to your ears by those people can be supported by you for three pounds a month,

as little as three pounds a month, or more. Instant ad-free access to the full video and audio back catalogue. Exclusive extra content with John. More on that in a bit. There's a new format, Stu and A every week-ish, although I will say the last one was so good. Someone, it was Dave McCarroll. He got in touch and said, hey, can I share this with a Discord? Weirdo. But that's how good it is. One person wanted to share it once. But it is, it's good. It's like a nice live connective tissue kind of a thing. So it does feel quite insidery and all of that stuff go to where do you go patreon.com slash comcom pod here is john totthill i listened to this before i've listened to this before i was a comedian oh my god i'm a huge

fan of you i'm just i really this is a i'm real privilege i'm so so so mate well i'm sorry that you're in my cellar because had you come and recorded in person like when when you started listening to the show i imagine well how long have you been a comic Oh, four years? No, you've done four hour-long shows. You haven't been a... You didn't do your debut in your first year. Oh, God, well, let's start with that.

Oh, good old-fashioned. Good old-fashioned. You know, started a comedy, did a debut. But hang on, no, you're a cheat because you were in footlights. Correct. Yes, I'm fine. There it is. I just happened into it.

With 30 seconds in, Cambridge Reveal. So I did sketch comedy when I went to university. Okay. I'd like to retract the word cheat. What I mean? You can say what you like. Less kind things have been said Okay, okay, fine

So I did that And then when I graduated, moved to London Tried to do comedy, failed Like, Okay Because you can't, like, How do you start doing a sketch comedy? Oh, sure.

Oh, you came to London to try to do sketch Yeah, off the back of it. Who were you in frontlights with? Were you there with, were you sort of concurrent year? And yeah, was in footlights with me. Okay, gotcha. Leo. Okay.

They were actually the year below me. And then my best friends, Eve Delaney, who you saw last night. And James Coward, who also is doing comedy still, were in my year. Okay, gotcha. Just placing you in the context of your big group of cheats. It's true, it's true.

And so then, but I started doing open mics, and then I did my first professional gig at the end of 2022. And then debuted in 2023. Gotcha. So how long were you doing open mics before you got your first professional gig? Because I remember back in my day, yeah, it's a couple of years, right? You're doing a bit and hoping that someone will take pity. on you and pay you. Yes, exactly.

Although I, and now I worry that I might be wrong about this, but I think that it's harder and harder to make that transition. Oh yeah. It's almost like putting on Ahir Shah said to me that it's like, it's like doing amateur dramatics and hoping you'll become a movie star. Oh God, he's got

a way with words. I'm trying to think of a negative word about it that gets that my point across. He's got such a painful way with words. Like it is like that. Yeah, it's a sledgehammer truth. It's like, And because the thing that helped me wasn't the open mics. I was doing the open mics and nothing was happening. Because of course, it's not... Were you doing them well?

Were you good? Were you getting laughed? I was doing all right. Yeah, I was doing okay. And then, but then I did the two Northdown New Act competition. And I think that's an example of one of those ladders you can climb, which then puts you into a different scene, which is why I'm a real proponent of, I like, competitions.

Okay. I just think that they're a really good way in. Because people do come and see them, I think you can genuinely make progress up from them. So did you do well in competitions then? Because I think most people who do well in competitions like competitions. Well, exactly, yeah. As a minority of the people who enter competitions.

Sure, but I do think that they are with some. I think most of them are well run. Like I don't think they're fixed kind of thing. That's not to say that all people who are good at comedy are good at competitions. I'm sure there are people who are brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think there is in the room on that day, there is hopefully a meritocracy to them.

So I think they are quite overall. I think they do more good than harm in the comedy scene. Yeah, that's fair. From helping people transition from open mic stuff into professional gigs. Okay. And how was... Do you disagree? No.

I don't think I do disagree. I just, for me, the jury's out because I think that I've got this kind of thing. I've got this kind of basic preconception about comedy, which is that it is art and art is for everyone in a kind of, folk art kind of way and competitions are in the same kind of necessary evil camp as critics for me whereby I can absolutely see the benefits on they benefited me and you know I've got reviews that I'll put on my posters and those are useful but I also think that there is something inherently kind of uneasy about judging art so it's like oh the judging the art thing is

useful for the artists yes to an extent but it would be better if it didn't exist. That's interesting. I think. Yes, okay. Because it's like the two different ways that people see the fringe. Like the fringe is either the Olympics and it's your one shot at the casino and you take your best work there. I hate that.

Yeah. Or it's the workshop where we all go up and try. Yes. You know, and that seems like a really beautiful, wonderful thing. Yes. But then it meets capitalism and market forces and completely understandably sort of becomes this slightly weird made up structure where... Like when people say to me, should I try? and effective.

Anyone who's asking for advice where the underlying question is basically, should I go up to the fringe in order to grow as an artist or should I try to game the system and use that one roll of the dice to try and get massive this time? I never know what to say because the answer is both. You should definitely use it to grow artistically.

But also, God, you can massively accelerate your career if you have a brilliant fringe. And if you miss out on that, newer comics don't realize, I don't think, that their newness is an incredibly precious commodity that once squandered is gone forever. Yeah, isn't that scary? Yeah.

Like debuting at a kind of Jane Austen ball. Yes, exactly. Like the young ingenues are here. And it's just kind of, that's so frightening that your youth and your novelty is prized in that way. And that is completely contrary to my values. Like, I'm not aligned with that at all,

but I totally get it. I agree with you. I agree, okay, I agree with lots of those things. I mean, I remember you said, I can't remember when you said this. I think you said it at the end of one of your shows once. I saw, I think you were like, I've designed my life to be like, how can I keep going back to the fringe every year? Yes.

Rather than how can I do this so then I'm in Hollywood and I don't have to do this anymore. A lot of people, I always remember Josh Whittickham kind of going, I hate the fringe and I want to get out of here, so I want to be so successful, I don't have to come and do this. And I was like, you're mad, mate. And now I'm like, oh, that may have been the right choice. Yes and no. But I am, I, I love the Edinburgh Fringe and want to go back as much as possible.

And I do think that it's a, I hope, at its highest aspiration, it's kind of a showcase both for excellence and a workshop for people. Yes. It's big enough to be both. But I think that there's a place for criticism. I think there's a place for reviews. And, and I think that, I suppose, I actually don't consider myself a man of good taste. Like I don't think I have particularly good judgment

I'm not very good at analyzing other people's shows And I'm not very good at telling people why I do and don't like stuff Usually the best thing I saw is just the last thing I saw I'm quite sort of I'm just really not a very You know I don't I'm not a Should we have a little bell that I'll press it Whenever you display and like knows ADHD D-Trace No I just yeah I don't because I think I'd be a very bad reviewer

And I'm not it's just not my skill set at all So I do actually I believe that there is a skill in in in reviewing and in criticism. I think it's, I do, I think it's an important part of the scene. Yes, and I think it,

I have to grudgingly admit that you're right because like I've got a sort of deep down kind of, like a, what's the word? I'm not very good. I wouldn't be able to be a critic. I don't know the word. But,

let alone comedy writer. I have like a real core belief, like an animal core belief. It's like, no, let the clowns play. Oh, interesting. Stop writing about the,

stop identifying a thing and going, this is a trait. and building it into a thing and stop, you know, just let the song happen. It's not a race, it's a dance, right? And I feel like the critics can seem to me on, I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think deep down in my core,

I feel like your people who are trying to judge the dance. Yes. And I'm like, no, it's a dance. But they are trying to judge the dance because they want, in some ways, they want to help the people who want to make a living out of the dance, make a living. Also, sometimes I get,

I don't know if this is a, I think this might be a really unkind thing to say about people. I don't know. Sometimes I leave shows feeling angry if I feel like a posh person has gone up to the fringe and not tried hard enough. That's completely understandable. And as a result, I want to see them get bad reviews.

Oh, that's a good point. I think, okay, it's a dance, not a race, but there is meritocracy in this dance. And I don't like to see, I don't like to see an audience offended by someone not trying hard enough. But do you, my, Yes. My response to that, I think, is that if a posh person goes up and hasn't tried hard enough,

chances are the critics will, they're more likely to fall on their side than not. Correct. Yeah, that's true. And we can agree on that. That's where it's, that's where we've got a problem. This is, not surprisingly, this is a very erudite beginning to the podcast. And I feel like at this point, like Fryan Laurie, I should kind of look at the camera and go, we're talking about. We're talking about. That's, I love that sketch, the Frye Laurie sketch. Yes, it's like, I've forgotten what we're talking about. So let's remain as erudite but become more specific. Okay. I saw your working progress show last night.

Does it have a title your working progress? I think it was called like all the working progress is a title differently because it's whatever I put into the form at the time. I think last night's one was called Behold the pig snuffles his way towards a new show. It's lovely. Are you currently touring? Is it thank God that this lasts forever? No, the one I'm touring is, that was the previous one. The one I'm touring is this must be heaven.

That's so nice. I really enjoyed, thank God this lasts forever. I love a title with an internal joke, and that internal joke is so you. Oh, thank you. Honestly, I think, I think we're right in saying that you achieved the making my wife cry laughing test, which means you're in the top four or five people. That's incredibly exciting. I won't have you name the others on the podcast.

All that could be quite a good game. That's the Patreon. Yeah, yeah. Who's made your wife cry? With laughter. There should be a big nerd quiz. We should probably do that. But we just loved it.

And one of the reasons that we loved it, I think, I speak for myself. One of the reasons I loved it is that you appear, so much of it appeared to be so off the cuff. I read a review of yours last night afterwards. I was kind of doing a bit of revision for this interview. And the review, I think it was Brian Logan and the Guardian said something like, words to the effect of. He's very good at making it look like it's all just off the cuff. And then I read that and I was like, oh, did he, was it, was it a swizz last night? Did he actually come up with that?

And then I was like, no, he was talking about stuff that happened literally that day or the previous day. So I thought, are you good at making stuff look like it's coming up off the cuff? Or when actually it's sort of densely written and kind of drilled into. Or, as it appeared last night, you're just very, very funny. well that's okay that's kind of you to say I'm very very funny you don't need to trick me to say that that okay that's really well put because the and that actually is

that's the you've you've hit on like the aspiration of my shows in that those the show you saw last night was the the whip number one of the year everything was brand new nothing was old nothing had been tried before nothing had been tried. So the thing about the threat of the eyes,

you had not said that on stage. No, no, I've never said that before. And also I will be, like, and also that all of my stuff is written in the pub with my friends. Like, it's kind of, it's like, if someone says something, I go like, I'll write it down. I'll be like, can I say that on stage? And they say yes, because they're, my friends are accountants.

There's no, there's no, you know. Oh, the writers room of people with no stake in your career. Do you know what I mean? Oh, that's never come up. 500 episodes deep, but that's never come up. That's the process. But like, I'm sure people do that, but being very obvious about it at the time and saying, can we just workshop that thing Tony just said?

Oh, I'm not workshopping it with them. But I am being like, I'm going to take that if that's all right. And people love it. They love all that. And I used to be, I used to be embarrassed about it. Yeah. But now I think it's like, no, I think this is quite a fun. It's fun to be like, that's made me laugh.

The thing we've just conspired together. I'm going to write that down. I'll try it on stage. I'll let you know if it's funny or not. It is. They love it. Yes, of course, of course. And it is a thing that aligns with one of the big theories I think about comedy,

which is that the funny is in the room somewhere and it's your job to let the funny out. It's less about me being an artist and a great writer and what have you, and it's more about me being present enough to go, here's some silliness. I agree. And I'll direct us to the silliness. And also I am compulsively and pathologically extroverted. I don't have an introverted bone in my body. I don't like being on my own really at all.

I never crave a lone time. I am not, I'm just not the kind of person who's going. to be able to take their laptop to a library and do the work. You know, it's, it's ADHD.com. at UK4 slash Iplayer, but, you know, it's just the kind of, I just want to be with people. So the time when I feel funniest is with my friends who make me laugh so much and, you know,

I just feel totally sustained by that kind of interaction. So it starts off like that and then it goes on stage and you could do early whips and it is totally improvised and like it's like, you know, the notebook will be like the thing you just said or whatever, like, you know, laughing about whether something goes in someone's eye or not, whatever. And then it's like, okay, well, I'll sit with that for a few minutes and see what's funny. I'll record it on my phone.

And then the whips get less and less and less funny because it crystallises into something. And then, but I really do, like all of the people that I, my big comedy heroes, Kate Berlant, Colin Holt, you know, I just, I mean, I feel like it's, it's parasit. social now. Like, all I do is go on podcasts and talk about how much I love Colin Holt. I've met him two times. He must think I'm, if he's ever heard any of myself, he must have this guy is my stalker. But I, you know, I think the world of Colin Hott, I feel like I own everything. And so like all of those people, all the joy of their act is that it's really in the room. And they're kind of looking at people. It's that kind of genre of

Colin Holt and Kate Balant's crowdwork where they're looking at someone and kind of talking at them. Yes. And not really letting them answer back. Yes. And making decisions about them and giving them an identity in the room. I just find that so funny. And so I will then try to write a show Which looks completely off the cuff Okay And the final show and I think I hope

I am good at making things look like they are finally off the cuff But last night was off the cuff Yes And now they'll be at now they'll be approaching about 30 whips Where it will get worse and worse and worse And then the final thing will be Better structured And we'll come back and it'll tie up hopefully

Do you know what I mean? A hundred percent This is such an excitingly nuanced approach to writing a show. That was going to be my next question is, do you find, I mean, the word you used was crystallised.

Yes. I often do new material. I'm making big, kind of creative leaps, and I'm jumping around, it's all flapping and loose and silly and in the room, and it's great.

And I have definitely had the thought to myself in the past. Why would you ever finish? Why would you ever exhibit material would you consider to be finished? Why don't I simply regard, I've had two thoughts, I did a show in 2019,

I think, called Primer, which was, I had a big load of words on a screen and they would change, not, yeah, half of them would change every day. And I'd be writing and coming up with ideas and putting the words on the screen. And then just, that would be visible to the audience, like a sort of comfort monitor that everyone can see. And I would just leap around trying to make connections and trying to make funny stuff. And it was such a satisfying show. And I came out of it thinking, either I should just go, okay, you know, like Ross Noble's got his thing. He makes it all up. You know, some people have got their thing, their format. And I

I thought, why isn't my format, this is work in progress forever? Wouldn't that be so nice? Wouldn't it? Yeah. What's the advantage to ever saying this is finished? Besides, every so often you've got to do a bit of telly. You've got to. God, you've just got to.

Every so often, you're lucky enough to get slippers and you have to give them a transcript. Yes. That's hard to do. I know that can be hard. But that comes up so infrequently that you might as well live your life being the work in progress perpetually person. And then I thought, would you, you could either bill yourself as, oh i just do work in progress yeah or you could just never mention that and have that as an internal game you're playing yes and so when people come to see the show in your head you're like

going let's just work in progress oh that's nice yeah well i think there's a i just think that's wonderful like and i wonder whether the answer to that is because there isn't really the infrastructure to i think if i lived in l a or something i think you could do that i think that i'm I think that is what, like, Kate Burlamp does. Like, I think even what I see, I mean, I've seen all her shows whenever she comes over here. And it's never tight. Like, the joy of it is that even her finished shows have, like, just endless improvisation that she's thought about that day, mixed in with kind of set bits. And I think you can, I think, I think some American comics can sort of do that.

Well, Reggie Watts improvises everything all the time. But I think we just don't seem to have that tradition in the UK. So I don't know, I don't know what the ticket price would be. Do you know what the... Although, on the basis of last night, that was, I mean, I was as satisfied coming out of that show as if it had been a finished show with a proper structure. Kind of backhanded compliment. What's that? Gets your sense of how bad you think my structure is.

Imagine if last night had been good. I would have loved that. I would love that. You see what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I would run. If you're saying to me, like, at the beginning of the process, it's a complete whip and it gets worse and worse and then it's structured, I'm like, well, do I want? want to go see the structure, I'd rather see the first whip.

And I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. Well, not everybody. I think you are particularly good at making very fast connections. And as you say, you're leaning into this is in the room and I'm playing with the crowd and I'm making sure that it's all live. But the stuff you were getting out of, what we've learned is other people's observations. You know, the threat of the eyes or the stuff about going into someone's house and the specific way that people ask you to take your shoes off. very, very drilled down into like this is such a core observation that you then unpack and play with. Yeah, I feel like, I'm talking about myself now.

I'm feeling like that is a, I feel like I've come to that discovery and then I have gone, oh, it's too scary. I'm not going to do that. Oh, really? And then the directions change from me with all the climate sustainability stuff. I can't ever really riff about the climate because it's just, you know, maybe I'll learn to one day and that's the next kind of challenge. Sure, but there's like a density to it. It's really dense and there's all these other kind of challenging aspects.

But I think I have happened upon that kind of like I've stumbled upon, oh God, if I really don't know what I'm going to say next, sometimes this is great. Oh yeah. And probably if you looked at the data of it, the hit rate would probably be greater, even though you're in jeopardy more. In terms of the gigs you come away from going, that was fine, but who gives a fuck. Like the number of crash and burn failures to, oh my God, wonderful ascendant successes, the problem the hit rate would probably. better if you just took a massive risk every time. I think you might be right. So why don't we? Is it just fear?

Maybe we should. Maybe we should. Who are you playing to? What is the fear for you? Why can't you go out and just do something that made up every time? Why do you feel you have to crystallise it? I think because I really do have a real fear that people might not get their money's worth. People pleasing?

Yeah, but also I think I don't consider what we do an art. I think I think we're nightclub acts. Yeah, yeah, like I just think it's all for entertainment. And I think if you, I just always feel like if I've, if I give a bad gig or I'm not on form, whatever, I've kind of let down a paying group of people. As a thought experiment, let's imagine a world in which you only ever charge five pound a ticket for the rest of your life. And as a strategy, you intend to play bigger and bigger and bigger rooms, because, fucking everyone's going there to see the five-pound show where you have no pressure.

Five pounds at the O2. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Five-pound work in progress at the O-2. How does that feel? How does that? That's, that's, um, that is like the ultimate aspiration, do you think? That would be so fun.

Except it wouldn't be, I mean, just because actually I think work in progress doesn't work in bigger rooms. Yes, true enough. Because I was trying to do. Partly because the pump and the effort it takes to go to the O2 and queue up for things and stuff is almost worth more than paying the extra money. Yeah. You can't reduce the ticket price enough. I agree.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and also, uh, just dramaturgically in bigger rooms, it feels you have to, you're more like a marionette. Like you have to, everything has to be a bit slow. We're talking about marionettes. I'm such pretentious. No, I love it. I love it. Dramaturgically, you have to be more of a marionette.

Listen, this episode doesn't mean anything. This episode is what this episode will be. And I'm really enjoying that this is this one. As in, um, I did, I was lucky enough. end of last year to do tour support for Alan Davis. And they were the biggest rooms I've ever been in in my life. They were like 1,500 seats. And like, I just talk too fast to be in a 1,500 seat room.

Everything has to slow down. You did at the time. Everything has to slow down. Everything has to slow everything slowing down. I managed to slow my act down. Okay. But it was a bit like last night, the thing I was really enjoying was I barely got to the end of a sentence. Yes, you love tripping over yourself.

I do as well. I love it. I love it. I love it. And like, I was actually, I was actually, listened to it back on my way home and I was like, why didn't that land? And I was listening to a certain bit and I thought, it hasn't landed because you didn't say what you're trying to say. Like, you just, you just tripped over yourself. But anyway, but I think that's a, that's

a genuine pleasure and I like doing it. And I think, so I kind of think I prefer smaller rooms. Yes. I don't want to do, I don't really think my act will work in a much bigger room at I'm just interested in just teasing slightly more at that idea that you're desperate that they get their money's worth. Or that they have, you know, you feel a responsibility to them. Yes. Because one of the things that, I feel that responsibility as well, and I consider it a hindrance. Because I think some of the comedians I love, the reason I love them is because they don't care if they bomb. Or they've been through a huge process of learning how to not care that they bomb.

They're there for themselves to do their art, to do their thing. and if people don't like it, then yeah, maybe they didn't have a great gig on the night, but then they are not pandering to an audience. Do you what I mean? Whereas I feel that the... I'll say this the right way around. I am most proud of myself as a comic

if I manage to not pander to them, to change what I'm doing, like to change gear in order to try and win a room round without kind of giving up and giving them what they want. Do you mean? You want to give them what they don't know What is it? The Orson Wales quote Don't give them what they want

Give them what they don't know they want I love that. I think that's what we should all be trying to do But I always come up against my My nature My simpering twat personality Which is like, I really want them to like me It's so important

I think maybe I don't actually think this But I don't rationally think this But I think in my stomach I still just don't think it's this is a proper job and so like I the idea that an audience would be displeased with me I think well this is just this is outrageous you know it's like this is because you said they've allowed you to get away with so much oh yeah

or just like please them yeah yeah okay I do I mean like not not to kind of psychoanaly it too much but I you know I'm not from an artsy family my my my you know I don't I didn't know anyone who did anything in the arts whatever until I went to university so I just sort of do think I think of myself a I think I'm a bit of a loafer and I work for like an hour a day kind of thing. And so I just have this, the fear of not going down well, it's not to do with, I think, the fear of not giving an audience what they want. I just think it's a bit like, I feel like it feels to me like a breaking of a social contract.

Whereas I'm being allowed to do everything I want and I can't even please them. And I don't think I'm being, I don't think this is right, by the way. This is just how I feel. This is a problem. I'm totally aware this is a proper job. And who cares anyway? Sure. What does this mean?

I just think when you come up against something like that, I'm just interested in going, what are the thought experiment things we can do to tease that? Like the cheaper ticket price or the... The cheaper ticket price would be, I think that would be electric. I think that would be so good. Because you, and let's not forget, you are pleasing them. Like you've done these, this is, you're working on your fourth show now.

Did you win the... No, you got nominated for the main award last year. Yes, right. I'm so out of touch. It's really funny that... Quite right. I'm proud of not knowing now. I'm not kind of pretending I don't know.

I'm like, no, no, no, yeah. But like, it's clearly working. The stuff is going down really well.

I remember, I think, this is awful. I think I even had a ticket for the last living libertine when you did that when you're, in your debut year.

I think I even had a ticket and I was one of those tracts that didn't turn up because like on the day I was exhausted and I kind of overreached in terms of how much I can cook with. That's fine now.

But my point is that, like, afterwards, that was one of the main ones I was kicking myself for like, I read more about it. and was like, oh, that does sound just right up my street. Oh, that's kind.

So what is it that you think you are doing right? In terms of the awards and the success and the happy audiences and what have you. How do you think we see you and what is it that you're doing that delights us so much? That's a nice question. What am I doing right? Well, I think that, My, I think that I have honed a good, a solid comic persona that is like highly distractible, effusive, very, very happy to be there. And I think I'm definitely a performer who writes rather than a writer who performs.

And even then, as I say, most of my friends just help me with the ideas anyway. I'm a performer who listens. I'm not eavesdropping on my friend. You know, I'm coming up with the ideas with them. I'm not... Never going to live this one, don't it? But I do think that... I hope very much that when people come to the show,

they come away with a kind of sense of... I want to feel like they've had a bit of kind of caffeine. You know, I think it's like... I think that I... I mean, lots of the kind of... In the longer form, hour-long, finish shows, obviously, the persona... Like, there is a lot of persona.

a lot of artifice and I don't really I really don't kind of discuss anything personal on stage or anything like that and I'm not really I'm not a confessional act at all so a lot of the artifice of the persona is just this kind of like effusive delight at being in the room with people and that is authentic like I genuinely am having the time of my life like it is my absolute 100% favorite thing to do so I hope that the thing that I'm doing right is people come out slightly affirmed that it was a good night out because I've had a good night out. And I do think, I think hopefully, I think what I'm good at is infecting people with that feeling. Yes. I think it is a lie. It's a good lie back on. I thought I totally agree with that.

And I think as well, one of the things I was delighted by is you are very well educated and you have a real fluency with language. And you know, do you think that's, uh, I, I, what did you, what was the phrase you used? Is it Gazamst Meisterwerk? What was the phrase? I've never heard. The Instagram was a Gazamp Kunstwerk. A Gazmstvark. Like, meaning like the total work of art. Yes. Okay.

Of like it is the final. Is that Dutch? It's German. Okay. It's Wagner. It's like because he's writing this thing of being like, he's writing at the high romantic time where he's like in an ideal world like opera is almost like an immersive experience. He's like, you know, we need to have like the biggest orchestra possible and like the venue should be designed for it. And you know, it's like proto immersive.

And for me, Instagram is that. Okay, I can't understand. Well, that's kind of you to say. I guess I'm just, all I am is good with words, genuinely. Okay. I've got piss poor general knowledge. Can I swear on this? Can you say piss poor?

Yeah. I've got piss poor general knowledge. Okay. Went to a pub quiz last week. Got nothing right. Nothing right. Like, I'm really, and it's actually embarrassing because people think I'm cleverer than I am.

I'm really not. Oh, I see. You're just wording. I'm just wordy. I have like the, what Zadie Smith, Zadie Smith calls. Was it the meritocratic intelligence? She has that you have that particularly narrow form of intelligence

which happened to be rewarded by the school system. Okay. And the rest of it is acres of ignorance. Okay. But I think that is what people think, that is what people mean when they say intelligence. I don't think when they say intelligence, people don't mean,

can this person look at an unfamiliar plumbing system, work out why everything must be working as it does, identify the fault and fix it? They mean, can you use phrases like meritocratic intelligence as, And name an author. But as long as we just acknowledge it's a con. Okay.

It is. Are you acknowledging it's a con out of a fear of being caught out? Maybe. I think we could agree that was quite a Stuart Goss for the question. No, but also it just upsets me that I, it's not so much being caught out. It's just that kind of thing where it's like, it's just, it just gets to me because it's a form of intelligence, which is unfairly rewarded. Yes. And it just bothers me.

Yes. Yes, my son is phenomenally good at spelling. Really? And I think for a while we've allowed ourselves to believe that that means he's the brightest kid in the school. No, I think he's just really good at spelling. That's one and the same thing until he gets to... Yes, I mean, that's exactly, yes. This is me agreeing with you.

Right, okay. But then you have, you very deliberately lent into that, like with the show The Last Living Liberty. What was, describe that show, because what I remember from the blur that I haven't sort of, recently looked it back up but it was like everyone was saying erudite professorial yeah you're like the subject matter was something incredibly uh what was the subject matter was it was so good uh it was a history of uh the reformation in england there we go um and and like it's like a grand thesis that like

uh the severing of ties with rome meant like the death of pleasure in england and now we're lost and it's yeah yes and it's kind of almost a character piece but But what I really hope is, and this kind of is the thing of like, yeah, it's all, it's relentlessly verbal. And like my sense of humour is very verbal. I don't really have a, as I say, like, I don't have a very visual mind. I'm not very good at, I can't even really, I can't even remember people's faces. Like I've got a very, very bad physical. Oh, really?

It's that thing. Well, I have diagnosed ADHD and I also really struggle to remember people's faces. It's really embarrassing. that yeah it's incredibly embarrassing and coupled with... Thank God you've got that haircut. Yeah, right. Coupled with an outgoing personality. It's awful because you constantly meet everyone and then can't remember them.

Yeah, yeah. And it looks so rude and I just can't do it. Anyway, so my sense of humour is just purely, is really word-based and verbal. So I hope that at the highest, at its highest aspiration, the show should feel like that your parents have dropped you off at university and you've wandered into a first year's room. Okay. And he's half read Plato. Like he's like, it's open, but he hasn't really read it.

And he's just holding court. And you're like, that's really interesting. That's why I want it to feel like. And that's why I hope. And this is why I've been so pretentious about the idea that I'm ignorant in every way other than being good with words. I kind of hope really, I desperately hope that the show, hopefully, as a kind of in its finished form, it's a send-up of people who are overreaching with words. Yes. It is like a kind of parody of like, of like, of course, you know, Instagram is a because I'm not saying that to make myself sound clever. I want to sound stupid. No, of course. Of course, yes. But also you sound clever because you know what that thing. Exactly. You are clever enough to know what that thing means and to know that. It would be ironic if you pretended to think that. Exactly. Right. And it's also, it's a ceiling on the number of people who are going to pay for a ticket to that. It's not a populist act, right?

No, it's not. But increasingly, I think if we think about kind of what's popular, because something like that could do numbers on Instagram. Exactly. Do you what I mean? Like you, it doesn't matter how many people come and see you in a room, except that when you're on Instagram, you're only making money for Zuckerberg. Like you're not actually making money from that. But like that ceiling, yes, you're not going to, you may never play the O2, but you might have an extremely rich, fascinating career with an enormous global fan base

on the basis that you're doing that kind of a thing. Hopefully, yeah. Rather than it reaches everybody, it just reaches everybody who would love it. Yes, exactly, yes, because one of the things that has really changed, I suppose, within my understanding of, you know, within the 20 years I'll be doing the circuit, is that it used to be aspirational to be able to play every room. And that's the opposite of how the internet works now, whereby like, do we need people that can play every room?

Yeah. What we have the opportunity is that you can, the example I always use is Warhammer. My friend who's a newer comic is massively into Warhammer, paints all the figures, reads all the books. As you may know, Warhammer is worth more to the British economy than the fishing industry. That's extraordinary. It's absolutely enormous. And I'm constantly telling him, you could be the Warhammer comedian. And you wouldn't necessarily be able to play a single room in Britain.

but oh my god you could buy a house yeah exactly yeah yeah so which which parts of that popularity appeal to you would you think

you would like to be famous it really bothers me that it bothers me that I'm not I hope you can't hear my stomach rumbling but I could you could

okay that's fine I I it bothers me very much that I don't I don't really have a very populist instinct. I think that it bothers me that I can't go down well in every room.

And I think, as I say, I don't think this is a proper job. And I think that the least you can know everyone is being able to go down well in every room. And it's like, no, that's actually the hardest thing ever. And it used to get to me, again, thinking about doing tour support for Alan Davis, I just, I think, I think the world of Alan. Yes, and like, absolutely brilliant. Like, it's really easy to, if you don't know his stand-up, it's really easy to go. go, oh, he's a cuddly, daft, curly, head,

you know, floppy head wanker kind of thing that he plays on telling. He's just, like, peerlessly good. He's so good. And he was so, I just, I feel grateful for how, like, nice and generous and supportive he was of me when he didn't have to be, you know? Because he's just a nice man. Yeah. He's a very nice man.

And I look at him and I'm like, you can go down well absolutely anywhere. And I think that that is, there is, I just believe there's something virtuous to that. And I can't really, I can't really, I can't really, explain it. But I think it is a slight shame. I think perhaps that the culture is so fragmented that everyone has in their own tribes a little bit. Can you do, just thinking in terms of like class, can you do slightly rougher rooms and kind of what's your strategy? I'll ask a more open version of the question I was going to ask. Do you play kind of slightly rougher clubs on a Friday or a Saturday and do you have specific tactics for being able to be as erudite and literate and

what have you as you are? Yeah. And kind of positioning that, you know, either with or against the vibe of the room. Yes. Well, I do, I'm happy to say I do comedy clubs and I like, I want to be a club comedian, you know, so I don't, I hope that I haven't fully retreated into an ivory tower. But, and the way that the persona works in those environments is simply, I talk about the that I used to be a teacher. And as soon as that, as soon as that kind of like, the way that being a teacher is kind of shorthand for being high stakes and low status, high status and low status at the same time. Yes, great. That's a great system.

Especially when I'm, I'm kind of being like, I was a terrible teacher. You know, that kind of immediate thing of being like, I am educated and I am now, I'm now misspending it and I'm doing it badly. And that's what I think gets it over the line. And that's what got it over the line in my first show and in my second show. And now in my third show, I stopped mentioning it because I thought that across an hour I can balance it enough now.

Yes, it's a sort of a support strut that you don't need anymore. I need it in some context. I need it in like a brand new room. But I think with an audience in Edinburgh, I can now just about balance a show in a way that I don't get too annoying. So this is John.

He's lovely, isn't he? You can see John Top Hill, this must be heaven tomorrow at Mach, if you're listening to this at the moment it is released. If you are at Mach as well, then you can come and see me at noon with my show. I don't know if we've given away the title yet. I don't want to say it if we haven't released it. But it's called something, I think I've called it Climate Confessions. It's the second climate show.

It's at noon on Saturday in one or other of the rooms. You can find it, I'm sure. And it's, there are differences that I would say there's at least 20 minutes in it that wasn't in last year. but if you've already seen it eight times, don't come again, Ian. You're very, very welcome, of course. My point is, I've been having kittens

because it's weird to double whip on consecutive Macs. But nonetheless, we're not here to talk about me. This must be heaven is John Tothill Show. It's on tomorrow at Mac, London on the 22nd of May, and at Edinburgh this summer. You can find all of the dates at, get ready for this, campsite.combo slash John Tothill.

I mean, sure. And you can keep up to date with John on, Instagram at John Totthill. So I'm going to be in LA next week, and I'm telling simply everyone, as well as Edinburgh this summer, more news to come. You can find out all about it and sign up for the ComcomPod monthly mailing list at Stuartgoldsmith.com. If you want to see the live dates there on the comedy page, and there's some other bits and bobs there as well. In the second half with John, we're going to discuss the loneliness of being trapped on a cruise ship after bombing every night. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. We'll talk about stage persona being shaped by managing class

perception, the tension between ambition and burnout, and why crowdwork makes him uncomfortable, which I find hard to believe. We'll also find out whether the bastard's happy. Back to John. I haven't seen one of your finished shows, I realised. I saw you do work in progress at Mac a few years ago. Yes, you did, and I was so starstruck to see you there. Because you were on just after you, weren't you?

I think, I'm not sure, maybe. I think you'd hung around in the venue afterwards. Maybe you did a live comcom. No, no, no, it was, oh, I did do a live comcom, but I also very intentional. eventually came to see you because someone had told me that you were the sort of thing that would appeal to me. That's incredibly kind, but I was so happy to see you there. But yes, no, you saw that work in progress. So I haven't seen the finished shows, but my wife told me that there is a story about a colossal walkout during a cruise ship.

Oh yeah, yeah. That's obviously material. That sort of became the basis of a show. Is that the one you're touring at the moment? The one I'm touring at the moment, yeah. Okay. Without giving away the material from the show, from people who might like to come and see that tour. Can you tell me what happened?

Because I've never done a cruise gig. Oh, God. do. They're just, never do them. They're just awful. I, okay, that's, it was actually a, um, a formative moment because I realized that I really

can't, I really can't please everybody. And the more I was trying, the worse it was going. Yes, because you're taking all of the things that are special about you and kind of knocking them all off to try and stay alive. I'm not mad. I mean, I wasn't going on the cruise and being like Instagram as a gazamp kunzvskirts. Like, I was, I was coming on with, Like, out of the, you know, the four years or whatever worth of the material of quite, you know, quite intensive churn, I'd taken and cherry-picked the most accessible down-the-road material you could ever imagine.

So you also, Stuart Goldsmith at any corporate awards ceremony in the last 15 of the last 20 years. Reaching back 10 years going, well, that bit seemed to appeal to everyone. I was also, I was on a, it was a trial, it was a trial run. So it wasn't good money either. Because cruise ships are lucrative, aren't they? but not if they've got you on a trial or whatever. And so I was kind of over a barrel and I was still, you know, had an hour to do every night.

And I basically learned a brand new hour long show, you know, from just piecing it together. I thought this is a bulletproof piece of material. There's a piece of work. I hate all of it. It's got nothing to do with me, but I am going to do it. And they just, they, like, they loathed me. They're, like, really loathed me.

They're all of, they were all very old, very disgruntled and very sort of, um, I'm afraid. Actually, it also, it, it, I think it affected me

in lots of ways. It affected, it affected my politics as well. I think I, I look at, I looked at the cruise ship and I kind of thought, oh,

this is, this is, this is kind of reform UK. Like, there was a, there wasn't a single person on that cruise who didn't own their own house

and probably had a second property and I'd probably sent their kids to a good school wherever. There was, you know, but there was just this kind of, this resentment and culture of victimhood and chronic nostalgia.

and inertia and no culture, no... And I just thought, actually, fuck you guys. I've got nothing to say to you. Are all of those observations about the audience made from the perspective of you on stage at the time dying? Or are these also separate observations that you made? On my third gig... I mean, it was observations I've made at the time.

They were just, you know, these are people on like the holiday of their lives who just complaining about everything. I just thought this is not to be... kind of too, I feel like I'm being horrible about, you know, I don't want to be too like, I'm not trying to have like a war, but an intergenerational war, but they were just that absolute caricature of baby boomers, you know?

Which is a shame. I love baby boomers. They all come to the Edinburgh fringe. There's plenty of baby boomers in Edinburgh fringe who are alive to the world and it's, you know, whatever. But it was just a particularly bad, you know, very upsetting group of people. And on my third gig, I remember basically saying all of that on stage. I mean, I hate you, I absolutely hate you. I think you're the worst people I'm

I think you have no idea, you know, you're living, you're in the top 1% of living standards in the history of humanity, you know, and you can't, but you feel like you've been hard done by because the buffet was late today, pathetic. And I really kind of... With a punch sign on the end of it, or with the hope that, hey, this could...

Hoping they'll be a punchline. Just complete, you know, people walking out, hated it, and heckling and all this stuff. And then, of course, but the worst thing about it is you have to hang out with them afterwards because you're trapped on a floating prison with them. Yes. Can you even get your food from somewhere different?

No, I'm at the buffet with them all. And people coming up to you, I hated that. And you think, do you know what? Fair enough, I was horrible to you just then. Yeah. But at that, I think that was a good, that was actually a good lesson in not being a people pleaser. Yes.

Because it can be quite sort of joyful to mark yourself out against, just to know what you don't like, you know? Yes. I always think of the bit of Rick and Morty where he goes, I don't care of you boo. I've seen what makes you cheer. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great line.

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And no, so it was a terrible experience. But also, I actually now feel like I've been too unkind about it because I'm talking in the persona of the person who then went to a show about it. Yes, yeah, fair enough. At the time, it was just a sad experience. I felt lonely. It's funny, that aspect of comedy whereby you can take the worst moment, as Catherine Bohart said, which you put this very, very well, you can take the worst moment in your life. And part of your brain is thinking, could this be funny? Like, sure, once you, once you, once you. woven it into a beautiful, the herist tapestry that all your friends who like you, all your comedian,

you know, your fans, oh, we love this, you suffer, tell us more about how you suffer. That's very distinct and disparate from the moment where it all goes wrong

and you just feel like death. But also for this show, that's also why I didn't have to talk about how I used to be a bad teacher. Because within the first like 15 minutes, I've told them that I really bond on a cruise ship. And I'm so happy to be with them now, you know?

And I think that just establishes a sense of it like, this guy's a bit of a, loser. Yes, and that's important to undermine the erudition. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that is the that is what I'm trying to do, yeah, because it is that thing of like, I am a bit of a loser, you know, like, I do the two this to the cruise. Oh yes, if you haven't, yes, if you haven't pointed out, like the bit you did about staying in a travel lodge. Yeah. And what was your, I love travel lodges. I'm so

comfortable in a travel lodge. I think, I think, people do just need to remember that, I think, on stage, because always there a bit like, what is, who is this guy? Otherwise, they think, oh, this guy, this is clearly educated, posh, maybe rich. Exactly, yeah. And he's kind of come down to the gig to tell us all about his life. Yeah, which I don't think is very nice. Yes, exactly, yes. I always think that they should teach that in schools, shouldn't they?

If you want to be popular, tell a story where you fail. I think so. But also, I think it's also true of like, it's not, I don't want the stand-up character to seem like a posh person. I want him to seem like a nerdy kid who hasn't fit in and has now found his tribe. Yes. You know, that's what it should feel like. To visualize your, say, the next 10 or 15 or 20 years of your career, like what are the things that you feel confident about

and what are the things that you're concerned about? I feel really so blessed and lucky that I feel like I'm now on the scene. You know, like, and I think that's like such a flattery and such an honour kind of thing. Like having spent sort of after I graded, spent sort of 10 odd years, whatever, sort of looking at the Pleasance courtyard and kind of looking at all these comedians who I admired and thinking,

I just really want to do that out. And I feel so happy that I'm doing that now. Just, you know, like to have, just to be kind of on the kind of, even on the periphery of the scene. It's just an honour because it's all I've ever wanted to do in my whole life. That's great.

I love it. It's all I want. It's great. I love to be reminded of that because I've been through, I've been doing it for a long time, I think I've been through the cycles of cynicism. Well, yeah, you start and you go pinch me.

Oh my God, I can't. This is, can't believe this is real. And then the pinch me moments become fewer and further between. Well, yes, that is true. And then actually I've noticed my big dream was I always wanted to be able to pay my rent with comedy. Yes. And I can now. Yes.

Which is great. But then immediately the goalposts shift. And it's like, the fact that you paid your rent this year with comedy is no guarantee that you're going to get next. And so, oh, God, I didn't realize. I'm just so naive. I forgot what, I didn't know what being a freelance was being freelance. Yes. Yes, yes, because in comedy, certainly in the early years of comedy,

there is a pathway laid out. And I've said this many, many times on the show, but I will never forget talking to Dan Atkinson when I just, he was full-time, and I had just become full-time, and we were doing the comedy store gigs on the Riviera. I was thinking, oh, this is a fine old time. And I was saying to Dan, what's next?

What's the next goal now in full-time? And he said, he said, words to the effect of, well, now you have to live with it. Oh, wow, and I've spent a long time trying to live with it since then. I suppose that the, you know, those markers for like, I'm in the gang. This is great. Oh my God, I'm in the gang. Is the gang still the gang? Who's moving away from the gang? And is there a different gang? And should I be in that? You know what I mean? There's so many different questions for me. And I'm by nature, quite a panicky,

anxious, hypervigilant, what's going to go wrong next kind of a person. Me too. Yeah. And I think that that's why I just want to kind of, before being like, what am I worried about for the next five, 10 years, it is just worth being like, I'm so happy that I can, now, like, these days, I can walk into the Soho Theatre and see someone that I know. Yes. And it's that thing of like, oh, I'm on a, this, I'm on a scene. Yes. And it's that thing of like, it's, I take that for granted and I do love it and I shouldn't take that for granted. And, um, I've, last year I read Kathy Burke's memoir, really good. And, um, she, in, in that, she talks about how, like, uh, she used to do all these shows at the old Red Lion and she was talking about

how it was a scene and sort of like, I think, like, Rick Mile was there. And it's kind of, like, incredible thing. It's so easy to be nostalgic about, that sort of thing, as if scenes don't exist anymore. But actually, you look at the Soho Theatre or whatever. People complain about it because it's, you know, the tickets are too expensive. Because, yeah, of course, everything's too expensive. We're in a, it's a nightmare. We're living in an impossible country.

But it's like, this is a cool scene and we're lucky to be on it. Great. Yes. So that's that. And I want to keep being in that. But then I suppose for the next 10 years, I just need to find a way of building a live following so that I can do a bigger tour. Yes.

I think that is just sort of what I want to be doing. Yes, I think so. I was chatting to someone recently who is a kind of, you know, a brilliant award-winning great comic, who was saying that they may have to get a day job again because just the financial circumstances are being. They're not quite as embedded in the circuit as they might be. They've had brilliant Edinburgh successes,

but you can't make enough money Edinburgh to run your entire year. And it was really, it was a bit of a wake-up call for me. I've kind of got sufficient niches and plans and the rest of it, I spent a long time building it up and I think it has in some ways my hypervigilance and panic has been a benefit to me

because I've sort of, I suppose I learned a wonderful phrase recently, financial resilience. I don't want to be rich and I've never needed to be rich but I do need to have enough money to cope with whatever the fuck happens next. So I want financial resilience

and I feel much better about wanting that than if I had said to myself, I want to be rich because that would feel like a dick move and also it doesn't feel true for me. And I was just talking to this act and kind of going, oh, that really is like...

You can name him, Jimmy Carr. You can be kind of lorded and admired and all of these things and yet not have the financial resilience that means you can make the decisions you want to make. And it sounds like, I suppose, I sort of, I thought to myself, I would love to be as creative as that person

and have the kind of, they're one of the comedy brains that I kind of am jealous of and I think, oh, wow, wonderful. And I can feel a bit journeyman-like in more I have done over the years. You know, we were talking earlier on before we were recording about doing warm-up, you know, which is not anyone's dream really to do warm-up.

My skill set's completely appropriate for it and I always have a great time and do a good job. But it wasn't really part of the dream. Sure. So I suppose I'm asking, do you have, or kind of, like you mentioned it a little bit, but just is the crux of your future-proofing, the future-proofing of your career to build a following?

Is it all loaded onto get enough fans and you'll be all right? I think so, yeah, because I think that's the only thing that you can reliably control, right? You can't really control whether a TV appearance comes your way on it, I suppose. So in that sense, I think the only, I suppose, yes, my way of future proving would be to try and amass a bigger following. And but of course that separates into a large number of different streams, doesn't it? It's, because it's not just going up to Edinburgh again, which it feels like how it used to be.

Yeah. And it's bigger in the hope that the sort of, those sort of taste makers come and see you and then put you on everything. It doesn't exist anymore. No. So I suppose I'm really, I'm quite hard on myself with things like posting on social media, because I really am very bad at it and I need to find a way of like infusing it with joy because if it's not

a pleasant experience it's a bit like well why are you doing this then you should go and do an unpleasant job that's really well paid this has all got to be fun yes again it's another Arir Sharkehah he was like he said to me like you've got to remember that this should never be so fun

that it stops being a business and it should never feel so business like that it stops being fun oh that guy's got some wisdom to me he's good he's brilliant and I think and for me sometimes my relationship with social media feels very business like and not very fun because I'm not just not good at it and I need to

I'm currently thinking about ways I can make that better work with other people that's tip number one isn't it how can you make it something you look forward to doing because it's a fun light expression of the thing you like management again isn't it how can I make this something fun rather than an impossibly insurmountably big task that you have to do four times a week otherwise there's no point

you know so I don't know I don't really know but I think that I don't want to, I really, really don't want to be like a nostalgic. I don't want to be trapped in the past, even though I grew up on watching like sketch shows on TV and thinking about Edinburgh and stuff like that. I don't want to just, I don't want to keep doing just those,

just these old-fashioned things for the sake of it. I do want to try and face the future, you know. I just need to find a way of bringing it to me slightly. You mentioned Colin Holt. You mentioned being a fan of Colin Holt. And I think, of your reviews that I mentioned also said, oh, this has qualities in common with Colin Holp. Do you feel like that thing of like diving in and going, this is you and that's your person?

You mentioned Kate Belant does it as well. I think she's absolutely incredible. And do you feel that that is sufficiently kind of common currency? Like do you ever think, oh, is that a bit Colin? I actually, I worry sometimes that if I get nervous, I inflect things to. much like Anna Man. Okay. I think that's where I'm a bit like, I need to watch that.

Yes. And Stuart Lee as well. Oh, that's interesting. But everyone, everyone inflexes things like Stuart Lee now. Yes. In that like, we all drink the water. You know, it's like, so, so in that sense. But I am, I have, I am vigilant of it.

Yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to by accident lift an inflection or something like that. Sure, sure, sure. But I think that I'm, but I think with crowd work, that kind of thing, I'm not, I'm not being like, you know, look at this Gibbon over here. No, no, no, no, no. I think it's okay. But what I do like is just, the truth is, I really don't like

audience participation in shows. Yes, got it. Not in a judgmental way, it just isn't my taste at all. When as soon as they're kind of like, come up here and say this and do that, I just personally, slightly switch off or I become a bit stressed.

It just doesn't personally do it for me. I don't really, I've got, I don't love anything that, is self-acknowledgallely silly. Sometimes it's a little bit, people are a bit like, I'm being a bit silly. Like, or being a bit like,

oh, I'm wearing this. I'm a bit, that actually sometimes, again, it's that slight, it's really not good, but it's this sort of,

you know, low-ceilinged, middle, middle-class thing that I'm doing of that kind of like, can you get a proper job for God's sake? You know, it's so funny how that comes round for you again and again.

It's so bad. And I just, I quite easily cringe about stuff. Anyway, so, so I, my favorite kind of crowdwork is, just where you've asked someone their name,

you ask what they do, and then you just leave them to it, you know? And I just would always rather, there's a kind of like, you give them a bit of a persona themselves and you don't really come back to them. And the persona is so self-absorbed that you don't need...

I've already decided what I think about you. That idea of you work in physically, where you probably vote this way. It's like, it's so clearly not investigative. Yes. That I think that's sort of, that's, I hope, where it's coming from. Yes.

Which I hope is common currency enough, yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I think about 10 years ago for a while I would open club gigs by walking on and going, what's your name, what's your name, couldn't give a fuck. And that'd get a laugh. But then I had nowhere for that to go because we've established I don't give a fuck.

And then I just sort of end up. And also, you do give a fuck as well? Well, yes, it was a funny, like... Do you know what I mean? You're not a kind of... Yes, it's antithetical to the contract I can't help but make with the audience. Yeah, exactly.

You're like, I love this. I think I don't give a fuck. Sure, okay, fine, fine, yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe I do. Yes, do you give a fuck? Do you like, do you care about them? Or do you care about how they make you feel? I, again, this is extremely pretentious.

Pretentious on that. Here we go. I actually do, I feel constantly genuinely flattered if anyone wants to come. And I am genuinely pleased to see people. The idea that people came last night to a 9pm Sunday whip. Yes. I don't mean your crowd. I mean a club crowd who are there to see in your comedy.

Yeah, no. I'm like, thank you so much for being here. That's the only authentic thing I say on stage. I'm genuinely so happy to see you all here. Rather than be on your phones. Do you mean that? I feel like we'll, you know. Yeah, your feeling is like,

I'd rather be on my phone. Well, so presumably you were, no, you said earlier like, this is the one thing that you wouldn't rather be on your phone for. Yeah, I'm like, thank you for still participating in the Commons. When things go wrong, when your mid-crystallization process and the gigs aren't working in the stuff, isn't working. What are the long

dark nights of the soul? Do they look? Are you racked with anything? Yeah. Yeah. I'm really I'm very I'm very I've got, I think I've got better at it or rather the people around me have told me I've got better at it.

Of like the run-up to my 2023 show marked obviously by the death of Adam Brax which obviously would plunge anyone into the kind of dark night of the soul. But even the following year, getting, you know, stress, stress, stress, stress, all the time, you know, like May to, May to July is a write-off.

And I'm looking forward if I don't go to Edinburgh this year, if I go up with like a whip or something, I'm excited for perhaps an authentically carefree summer. But last year, the show was still stressful. I still got worried about it, but it wasn't as stressful. And I think, I think I am getting, I hope I'm getting better at not just becoming complete, essay crisis over the top concerned about it. It is just a show. It's just a show.

So, yeah. Does that have, did getting nominated for Best Show have an effect on that? Is there something whereby the kind of the official patronage of the, the self-appointed official industry people means that like you can't, you can't fool yourself? Like I would imagine, where I'd have to be nominated for Best Show, part of me would go, I can use that as a shield or something to parry an internal attack. Oh, would you know what I mean if I said the opposite of that? Because what happened straight away was people come out of the elder statesman

come out of the dark and they're like, don't waste this. Oh, God. And it's like, are you serious? Go on. And so then it's now I'm kind of a bit like, oh God, I really must make sure that I'm like putting my heaven of a parapet and making sure that I'm still here. And, you know, like, so it's, um, but, but once you get that, it's a bit like, well, what, you know, this is, this is now just, you're, you're, you can't run at a sprint pace

all the time, can you? No. So what are you going to do about it? You know, you just have to try and, um, well, okay, it's also, though, it's just resolved in the room, isn't it? Of like, it's all, like, these are all thoughts that you can only have, um, on your own. But like, as soon as you're doing the whip again, like last night, it's, you're, it's just time of my life.

It's just great. Fine, well, this is putting my head above the parapet. This is doing it. It's resolved in the act because it's fun. I love it so much. What is inscribed in Old Faithful, where Old Faithful is a hypothetical baseball bat, the notion first conceptualized by Felicity Ward.

Old Faithful is a baseball bat and engraved in the side of it is your negative core belief. And you have a bad gig and you reach for Old Faithful and you beat yourself up. Um, you, you are not, you are fundamentally not likable, I think. Really?

I think so. You're one of the most likable presences on stage. No, but I am so pretentious and so annoying and, and, um, uh, verbose and, um, uh, do six other words that mean verbose. That's what, that's what Stephen Fry would do. An iota of a dot of a glimmer of a shade. Yeah, sure. Is it? Is it?

Um, so obviously being, it's like. It's nice. Yeah. Not, I don't think I'm, this isn't, I'm not, I'm lucky that I've got,

I have, I'm blessed with pretty good, like mental health. You know, I've never, I've never had sort of what you might call depression or anything like that. So, you know,

I, I, I, I, I, when I say like, oh, I'm worried that I'm fundamentally not likable.

This isn't, I'm, I think I am lovable. You know, I'm not, sure. But I mean, on stage,

it's like, that this just is not, that you are just, you don't have the chops for people to instinctively like you. I don't think that's like, I don't think many people do. It's not like, oh, when you walk into a room, everyone hates you. No, sure. It's just that thing of a bit like, this just, you just don't have this.

You don't have the, I think that's probably, oh, we've got to get out on a happier question than that. I'm sorry, I'll stitch you up. The real sad one. But no, I do, I totally appreciate that that's distinct from the, from your own. It's not a path. Sure, sure, sure. Who was that I don't know, okay, so I've got,

I've got a question. A listener, comedian Brendan Burns, has sent in a question based on a comment I put on a Facebook thread about the sad passing of Stu Who. You may not have encountered, probably before your time. Glasgowian comedian and teller of tall tales who was much loved by the industry. And just one of those extraordinary circuit weirdos back in the day. Lovely guy, very funny. And I think Brendan felt that part of his relationship with Stu was that Stu was a sort of journeyman comic who, when Brendan was younger, and Stu put a hand on his shoulder when he was ready to quit

and kind of was like, hey, you know, I think the example he gave is like, you bomb a gig and one of these older comics goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, to the promoter, you're paying him anyway. Do you mean, someone who stood up for you? So it's like, it's the Stu Who, Brendan Burns, Journeyman question. Do you have anyone like that who was like an older comic mentor figure or so, not even a mentor, but just who stands out as like someone who stood up for you? well

that's a very good question it may be that you've only been going for four years and it's designed for someone who's been going 15 but it's actually a really really good question well there are people I think who are who probably come up again and again with those things aren't they because there are people who make it their business to support people and you're one of them

don't you think oh well that will stop me from when I'm asking you know but you're you're you're you're known as a you're, you're, you're, you're,

you're, you're, you're, you're, in that way that's like, you know, I can't include

any of that. But, but then also, I suppose, but like, there are just, I think there are, there are comics who come and see stuff

and then there are comics who don't, kind of thing. Yes. And, yes, I often see Paul Sinher at gigs. Yeah. He's come to see me

and I see him at other people's gigs. Yeah. Oh, he's out seeing stuff and telling everyone if the stuff is brilliant. Tim Key's another one. Yeah, Yeah, right, yeah. David Otocky.

Uh-huh. Yeah. David Odochty. David Odochty. Yeah. D-O-D, isn't it? D-O-D, of course. I'm going to cut everything else and just leave you stumbling about that. That's the whole episode.

That's the end of the career. Cut that, cut that. David O' Doherty, he's another one. You know, like, so I think the, but I can't, I'd be lying if I said there was an individual person who's picked me up off the floor kind of thing. Okay. Perhaps that will happen one day. Perhaps I'll get to do it.

we've run out of time and I've got to get you to a train. So I will finish in the classic Comcom style. John, are you happy? Yeah. Yes, I am. Thank God. I'm definitely, I'm not content,

but I don't think, I don't think 29-year-old should be content. You know? But I am happy. And I feel sustained by the friendships in my life. And I think that I feel, if I'm, if I'm feeling,

I'm very hard on myself, you know, I'm very ambitious and I feel very, you know, like I get in my, own head a lot, but I do feel vindicated by it's like, I feel validated by my friends. I'm like, well, if they're, if they're happy to hang out with me, I can't be that bad, you know, so I keep coming back to that. So I just feel very happy, yeah. Thanks, man. So you can see John Tothill.

This must be heaven tomorrow at Mac, if it's the one day of the year in which that has meaning. You can see it in London on the 22nd of May and in Edinburgh this summer, all of the dates at ready, campsite.bio slash John Tothill. Sure. Also, you can keep up to date with John on Instagram at John Tothill. Your exclusive extras with John, which you can get at patreon.com.com slash comcom pod for supporting the show and doing the right thing in your heart. We'll talk about the realisation that not everyone will get your material, but the right people will. That is, like the right people really will. And that's a sort of a fundamental. I'm going to, A bit more on this and then another thing.

We'll talk about why doing the work often looks like not doing the work. That's a good bit. And the fear about where comedy goes next. I'm going to post-amble at you about some of those concepts because that's pinging me off in a different direction. But find out more at patreon.com slash comcom pod and find out how to see me live at Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy. Come and see me at Mac if you can.

And thank you to everyone. Thanks to John for coming over. Thank you to Evil Producer Callum. Thank you to wonderful and award-nominated, Susie Lewis, for logging the episode. Do vote for her in the golden lobes, golden lobes, crucially. And thank you to our insider producers. Luke Hacker, Roger Spiller, I Cove, Dave, Daniel Powell, Keith Simmons, Sam, Alan, J. Lucas, Gary

McClellan, Chris, Swarbrick, Dave McCarroll, Paul Swaddle, Alex Wormell and James Burry. And a big thank you to our two special insider executive producers Neil, Terms, Peters and Andrew Conditions, Dennt, and to the super secret one. Bye for now. Here's a little shout-out, because next week's episode is with John Robbins. It's, we're going to be talking about his book, Thirst, which I, like a smug little bear, have read in advance before. It has been released and it's fucking brilliant. That's my official review and he can feel free to put it on a poster.

He won't because he's got people like Brian E. Gordon and Josh Whitacom have already said clever and wittier things. But holy jebis, it's so, so, so good. Like really, like kind of career definingly good, I would say. and we have got an hour and 45 or something of us talking about it in depth. And I was moved earlier today. I'm post-ambling now, and maybe we should take this and chuck it in that bit. Let's continue assuming this is the post-ambling that Callum's moved it. It is, God, it's good.

And I was so moved by a particular sentiment in something that he said to me when we were discussing it, that I'm going to put it on a bit of tape and stick it above my, monitor, which is currently the bit of tape above my monitor says, beat yourself up or walk in a field. And that is to try and remind me that that's normally how I get things done, is I either make myself feel bad about it until I do it, or I just go and have a break and wander around, you know, mentally or physically walk in a field. And then because I feel calm, I go, what I'd like to do? Oh, I'd like to do that thing I've been putting off. And they are equally successful. They're equally effective techniques of making yourself do something, although obviously one of them

gives you a much better life. The thing that I would like to say that I will scribble that John said, you don't have, this is with stand-up and sort of wider creative career, you don't have to pretend anything. Oh, you don't have to pretend anything. That's big, man. That's like a big archetypal summation of, gee, this should be next week's post-Abel, really. It's like a big, that's a sit with it and meditate about it for a while.

That is in everything. God, I come up against that all the time. I'm fond of telling people, you know, comics often do an impression of what they think a comic is and stuff. I forget who even said that. It may even have been me, but that does the rounds by which I mean I say it a lot and in interviews and conversations and it comes up on the pod from time to time. But that's an even more distillate version of that. You don't have to pretend anything.

The reason this is particularly in my mind is because I was just shouting out the extras on the Insiders Club for John Tot Hill's wonderful episode and wonderful extras where he talks about not everyone will get your material, but the right people really will. And that's big as well. That is a thing I wish I could remember. That's like, how many things am I allowed to have in a little, isn't it Brian Eno? Oh, I've got a joke about this. I can't remember the joke. Brian Eno has a deck of cards that he created called, I can't remember the name, but it's something like, oh, oblique strategies. It's exactly that. It's precisely oblique strategies, whereby it's a card of kind of creative prompts, turning the problem

on its head, look at it inside out, stand on your own head. Other things not to do with inverting things. But loads of like, I'm stuck, deal a random card, sort of like a creative tarot in a way, only arguably more real. but there should be a similar Maybe we should do a Comcom deck of cards Hang on a minute, that's good, isn't it? That's good, isn't it? That's a good idea.

Let's do that. Should we do that? Do you know how to get a deck of cards made? Could you get in touch? Thanks, Stuart at Comedianscombe. We'll do that. I think we should do that. I do have lots of ideas.

Oh, pertinent to this, I had my ADHD regular annual assessment recently and the guy said I'm on such a hilariously low dose of Elvance. He literally laughed twice in my face whilst describing how low the dose was. I know I'm a massive lightweight and I benefit from that in many ways. But he said that the dose is so low, what I can do is at half two, half three it wears off normally. So at half two, an hour before it wears off, I can just have the same again. And I've done that.

And here we are. So now suddenly I'm promising to make a deck of cards. Well, I'll run it by producer Callum and see what he thinks. So nonetheless, those are some intelligent thoughts. and I've post amble, but now I need to get back and actually finish recording the episode. You can leave all this in, Callum. It's an absolutely fascinating insight into the process, if you ask me. Oh, no, they're still working.

So that'll do for an amble. I did a little kind of, if you're on the Patreon, you get access to these little Q&A, the Stu and A videos that I do, and I did one recently about an overwhelming gig that I had just this weekend, sort of it compared to, like me, it was underwhelming because of me, compared to the glorious gig. a few weeks ago at Excess Malarkey, which I've got to stop talking about because I sort of feel like I'm imagining it's like, it's one of those gigs you want to retire after, frankly. But that said, I don't need to keep back on about it. Who did I see recently that I recommended for X?

Tal Davies. I think it's Tal Davies. I hope I've got her name right. Fuck, she was funny. Gig with her in Stone and Staffordshire. Lovely. You see someone new and exciting and go, oh, they're good. So I can't remember what I was talking about, but my point, oh, the videos, that's it, the little little Patreon videos comparing gigs to one another. I've been doing loads recently, loads and loads of writing, and I'm out and about in Bristol to my night and tomorrow, working up some new stuff from a physical script in front of me, which I really enjoy doing. It's nice to have the words there, because I'm not a professional rememberer. So nonetheless, that concludes the part of the Postamble, and I will see you when I see you. But come and check us out at Mac and don't miss John Toil as well.

All right, bye for now.