The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - Josie Long Returns

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

405 episodes and 11 years later… the incredible Josie Long returns as we dig into NOW IS THE TIME OF MONSTERS, her new show about discovery, wonder, extinction and how to walk through a landscape of monstrous disaster. We discuss why it's not a bad thing to preach to the choir, the themes of climate dread and parenthood, how Josie created a jaw dropping immersive finale, the harsh reality of mixed-bill gigs, redefining success on her own terms and we find out if Josie is happy...Join the Insiders Club at patreon.com/comcompod where you can instantly WATCH the full episode and get access to 20 minutes of exclusive extras including the emotional architecture of an Edinburgh Hour, letting yourself be vulnerable on stage as well as hand-transcribing sets, creating cue cards and recycling abandoned bits.👉 Sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok,Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ 20 minutes of exclusive extra content with Josie✅ Early access to new episodes✅ Exclusive membership offerings including a monthly “Stu&A”PLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Catch Up with Josie:Josie Long: Now Is The Time Of Monsters is now on tour through to December, coming to Leicester, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Kendal. For more info, visit josielong.com. You can also keep up-to-date on Instagram, @JosieLong.Everything I'm up to:Come and see me LIVE! Find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy.Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.See Stuart live on tour - www.stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Stu here. Episode 500 is somehow fast approaching. It's already in the cat. I can't wait for you to hear it. I need your feedback. I want to gather some data on your favourite episodes, your best moments, see if there's any fun anecdotes I can uncover along the way. Something must have happened in your life in nearly 500 episodes of podcasting. And as a thanks for taking part, myself and producer Callum, will be gifting an Insider's Insider 12-month membership on Patreon to one lucky respondent. You can pay this forward if you're already one. The survey's super short, all the questions are skippable, and this would mean a lot if you could just take five minutes out of your day to go and fill the thing in. Head to Stuartgoldsmith.com slash survey, or the link is in the show notes. There's going to be a very short break in September before we approach that milestone, but lots of exciting stuff in the works.

Hello and welcome to the show, Stuart Goldsmith here. This is the Comedians Comedian podcast, and today I'm very proud and pleased to welcome back to the show. After an absence of over 10 years, we think it's Josie Long. And Josie is back with her incredible show on tour, which, as you will hear me, enthuse in no uncertain terms in this episode. And throughout this episode, her show is called Now Is the Time of Monsters. and I saw it at the Edinburgh Festival. I thought it was absolutely brilliant, so inspiring. And also, for me, I had that really fun little wrinkle,

which is that I saw it and thought, oh my God, this is what I want to do. How can I possibly do anything like this? And really, that's what this podcast is all about, isn't it? It's me going, oh, I love that. How do I do that? And hopefully I will help you all learn how to thread together, this incredible tapestry that she has,

which is about discovery, wonder, extinction, parenting, the end of a relationship, and so much more, all just woven together in this phenomenal piece of constantly funny and beautiful stuff. All right, so good. In the first half, we are going to talk about preaching to the choir and why that can be a good thing. We're going to talk about undermining sincerity without losing emotional punch, and we will explore the themes of climate dread, mass extinction and parenthood all prevalent within Josie's new show. So remember, she is on top. right now so go to

where's the bit where you go to it's there go to josie long.com absolutely guessable and you can keep up to date on Instagram at Josie Long to find out more about the tour join the Insiders Club on Patreon a mere three pounds a month you get instant add free access to the show and the show in full video

and I think we do them all in video now either in person or as this one was in Comcom Towers here the joke being it's a seller and and or the majority of of them are at least on Zoom, but in quite good quality. I tell you what, I do often have a lot of comments about how nice my web camera is. So 15 minutes of exclusive extras with Josie, all of that

and more, all of the extras and the chance to support this podcast that you love and that I know you love and perhaps you're thinking, I must get round to supporting Comcom. Well, there's never been a better time. Patreon.com.com. Here is Josie Long. The danger with this is that I haven't done enough prep because I've loved your show. I normally massively over-revised. And I loved your show so much that I just ran around. It was that and Lucy Perman's show this year. I just would tell them everyone about them.

I thought they were so good. And I sent my wife and loads of her friends, as you know. Last night in Bristol and they all loved it as I knew it would. It was a nice show last night, actually. It was good. Well, let's start with that because I think it's been 400 episodes. since you were on the show. Yeah.

So I was going to, I didn't do this because I was too scared to be confronted by my past self. But I was going to listen to the other episode that I did with you. But then I didn't because I was like, I'm worried that it would seem very hubristic now. Or the things like, oh, God, I don't say yes. No, no, no, I know what you mean. I know that fear. I didn't listen back to it, but I did look through the transcripts. Oh, no.

Because it must be 10 years ago. It was in Bob and Amy's bookshop. Yes, I remember that. In a venue that used to, is on the Holyrood Road. I think I was like 2013 or 14. It's something like that. I think it was probably 2014. The things, here are some things that I remember from the first episode

and then we'll get stuck into your excellent show at the moment. The thing that I didn't, this is the thing before I even looked at the notes. I say and think about this all the time. You were talking about how you never want to be the shriveled up husk because no one ever says, let's invite that person on the expedition. Yeah. That was like one of the main things that stuck with me. But the most funny is after that I did have a couple of years

where I think I felt a bit exhausted and burnt out and a bit like, lots of things aren't happening for me on, right? And then I feel like there's something that I had to like come back from a bit and be like, oh, well, it doesn't matter. It's good. Good. Okay. The quote you said at the time was bitterness is our lowest sin. Yeah, that's a smog quote. And a bitter man rocks from within.

And a bitter man rots from within. Very good. I've reflected on the husk a lot. We'll come back to wilderness years. You were talking about creating a body of work that belongs just to me that I'm proud of and helps me make sense of the world. Yeah, I think I still, that's my philosophy, 100%. I don't mean for the format of this episode to be judge you against the last 11 years.

But so far you're doing very well. You said, oh, and I think I've stolen this from you. I was like, oh, God, I think this is where this came from. You said, people said, oh, it's like preaching to the converted. And I was like, yeah, because they need it. I often say in interviews where I'm talking about my climate stuff. People say, are you not preaching to the choir? And I was like, people do preach to the choir because then they'll sing better.

Yeah. Do I mean that's parts of the... And they're coming because they want to hear, they want to hear. Yes. Because they need it. And also, like, I always think people, I can't remember who says this. Someone that is not me, but someone else is like, it's the only thing where people are like, why aren't you going to people who hate you?

Yeah. Oh, do you play football? Why don't you go and do it for people who don't write football? Yeah, or, oh, you support a team. Why don't you support the other team that you don't support? Sure. Or, like, it's the only thing, it's the only thing with political comedy where you're sort of, somehow expected to access an audience that doesn't like you or want you?

Like, why? Like, I have never gone, oh, I absolutely hate that person's point of view. I'll buy a ticket. Like, it's insane. And people think that. They want you to convert people, don't know? They're like, is it like a measure of like, if this was good enough, it would change people's minds? Yeah.

Yeah. I think there's some people whose whole mindset is like debate-based, which is just pathetic. And it's not even truly debate-based. I also think deep down, they're just really saying. shut up you're wrong but they don't want to say that so they're saying like um can i just you know what they really want is for you not to be left wing anymore that's their dream but they're not they can't do that so they have to find ways to be like yes wouldn't it be better if you weren't yes yeah yeah because what they're so well i think that's the related isn't it the idea that like

if this really worked because the premise of that is i don't think this really works yeah a lot of questions yeah i feel like a lot of questions that you get if you really analyze them The heart of it is, the truth of what the person's saying is, I don't like you, I don't think you should be here, blah, blah, and you're like, I used to get that a lot when I was young, which would be like, oh, there aren't many women in comedy, are there? Oh, why aren't women funny? And like, you sit with it and you'd be like, what they're saying is, I don't see or recognize you and I don't think you're good. And it would be like, oh, yeah. But you don't written the time. You're just like, oh, yes, I suppose they're on. And it's like, yeah. Well, this, this is very

funny and I think preaching to choir is not bad or wrong especially when you're like on the left and not in a massive position of power like I've got a friend and I talk about him a lot of my friend Henry Bell communist poet and he often if I go to him with a feeling of like political

despair he'll just be like don't worry we're going to win and that to me is like this sense of building a strong collective consciousness which is if we don't instilling ourselves a belief that we can and we'll win and carry that around then how could we possibly win?

If we don't walk around with this feeling of like victory is not only possible but inevitable and real, then how we're not even allowing ourselves to dream? Like allow yourself to fucking dream, allow yourself to like own that power because that's free. You can do that and people might think you're deluded, but lots of things,

lots of horrific and improbable things have happened beyond our worst nightmares. And similarly, lots of things happen beyond people's widest dreams. They really do. Let's come back to delusion Because I think Well we could talk about it now Because I think what that sparks for me Is that like I wonder how deluded I am

I think as comics We're all a bit deluded in a good way Like you can't do the job Unless you can dream wild success At something you've got no idea how to do I also think some of us are just like Painfully Neurodivergence So we just don't understand

That we're doing things in a weird way Like I can't only do things the way I think is the correct way to do them, you know? Like, I can't do things. My thing with my work and career is I found it really hard to do anything as a means to an end. I don't understand that. So I couldn't possibly like, well, I'd take that job that I don't like, because then in this, well, I don't like that. Well, I don't like that. I can't do that. Sure. Well, that's boring. I'm not doing that. But I can't drive. I'm like, I don't want to learn to drive. I want to drive. Yes. Let's get stuck into the meat of your latest show, which is called.

Tell me what, remember what's called? Now is the time of monsters. Now is the time of monsters. So I saw this show at Edinburgh and was kind of delirious about it and was, it was so, it is so good. You're on tour at the moment. How long are you on tour? Let's get that out. Until the 12th of December, I've got a few shows end of November. I've got a couple of shows in December. I've got one in Newcastle, one in Glasgow, one in Kendall in December and tickets are available.

You know, multiple tickets are available. And then I've got some at the end of November as well. Okay. Lester, New York, Shetrap. That, this is very well organised. This is something I often can't do, but I suppose that speaks to the tensions of being on tour. Exactly how many tickets are sold where. Let's hear where it is.

That show, I loved it for its own sake. And I also loved it because it's what I want to do. It's so what I want to do. I was so inspired by it. Thank you. Really have I been so inspired by a specific show. You're talking about parenting. You're talking about the climate.

you're talking about hope. There's lots of other stuff in it as well in your life that is like, you know, you look back at sort of years of political comedy and political activism and I haven't got those years behind me. So it speaks to all sorts of things as well and I don't want to miss those ones

because I took the bits that I like and went, blah, la, la, la. It's very exciting for me. I came out of it, so inspired and so hopeful. But I also want to, I want to kind of interrogate how you did it Because I'm like, how, this is like the original route of this podcast, hundreds of episodes ago. How the fuck did you do that?

How did you say all of this? How did you draw together these apparently disparate threads? I read one of your reviews. The review liked it. But it was like, well, it's a bit of a jumble at the beginning. But the bits that make sense makes sense. And I'm like, it all made sense. I'm like, it's not actually a jumble.

I deliberately make it seem that way. So actually, yeah. Of course, of course you do. And I'm watching, she's going to pull all this together. Have you did? So, like, I want to ask you about how. you structure it and I want to ask you about whether, you know, in which order the anger or the silliness or the hope, you know, they would love to talk about that. Tell me everything about

it. So I wrote a show. So I've got two kids and one is seven and a half and one is going to be four next month, right? And since I've had my kids the way, the time that I've had to write shows has been really different. And I've sort of been, it's been tricky. I've had less work. It's been a lot of, like, juggling plates at all time. And my first show I wrote once I have my... I'm just going to buzz in there. Juggling plates is a thing that you can do. As well as spinning plates or juggling.

You can actually juggle plates. I'm sorry. That is valid. And this is from, as experience, I can actually juggle plates. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. I don't even notice.

No, sorry, it's stupid things. Pathetic, the degradation. Spilling plates. So basically, first show I wrote, since I had my daughter was called Tender, and it was about climate change and parenting. And I, she was 15 months old. Sorry, this is so boring.

She was 15 months old when I did it in Edinburgh. And I tried to write it over the course of about eight, nine months. And it was insane that period because I was like, she didn't sleep. And I was like, oh my God. And so like I was proud of that show because I felt like it did something of this show, which is talking about a couple of animals. and bigger things and smaller things and stuff

and I was really pleased that show. Then the second show I wrote was called Re-enchantment and it was about, a lot of it was about the policing crime, policing courts crime and sentencing bill. I think I always get it wrong, which is about kind of when they really, really undermine the right to protest and fear around that and about protesting and sort of, I guess, political violence and things like that.

But that show, at that time I had a nine-month-old baby and I wrote it in about three or four months, and it was like, And with both of those shows, I felt a little bit like I've just got to, whatever I've managed to get, I just have to make the best of that. And I was proud of them, and especially tender, I think that was a good show. And the one the other year, I was really proud of it. But it still felt a bit like a rush job and felt like a day of the time.

So with this one, I was like I'm going to take to, from January, 2024 till August 20, 25 to write this. And I'm going to let it evolve slowly. And so I started booking two or three max works in progress a month from January 2024. And I remember the first shows I did at the stand. And it was really interesting because that period was actually quite a period of like personal evolution. I think there were things that I realised and things that I end up having to change about my life. And also like physically I felt like I was coming back to myself. There were all these things that over that period changed.

And to be writing the show from the start of that to the. then meant that actually I could sort of weirdly keep different elements of different stages. There's a really good book about short story writing by George Saunders, who is like an incredible short story writer, just wonderful and really generous. And he basically wrote up his short story writing course into a book called A Swimming a Pond in the Rain. And in it he talks about editing. And like, I'm not really an editing guy. If I'm writing short stories, I'm like, it's done.

It's done. Leave me like, it's done. But he says that the more times you can come back to something, you're coming back to it with every version of you. So you come back to a story you've written and you come back when you're sad, you're bringing that version of you. You come back when you're feeling excited, you're bringing that version of you.

Yes, okay. And you're a person that is incredibly multifaceted. So you're bringing as many facets of yourself to this story by editing it on multiple days. And I felt like this was kind of a bit like this. I wanted to show to have enough time and space that I was sometimes doing it when I felt hopeful and I was sometimes doing it

when I felt really devastated. And I was sometimes seeing it when climate was my focus and I was sometimes seeing it when my personal life was my focus. And what's really interesting is over the past, since that time, there's been times this year when I felt giddy and wired and like alive. And then times last year, at the start of the show was too sad. Like I was talking about these extinct animals, but I was mainly just wanting to talk about getting older, feeling like I was in a state of extinction, feeling like very depressed about things. So I come out and it would be too sad, you know, because I'd be there and I'd be saying, I don't feel like I'm thriving.

I feel extinct. I feel, you know. And then to go to a point where, like, later on, I can play around with this. We're thriving. She's thriving. Like, stuff like that. It's really fun.

And it sort of gave it enough time to really, like, build some depth to it. And weirdly, I came up with the idea for it in 2023 on tour. I don't know why. I think me and my daughter were reading this book about prehistoric mammals and stuff. and basically I just was like I want to write about this because it's so exciting to me and it's so wonderful

I didn't know how many animals that were living you think you know because you know about dinosaurs and you know about like say I believe tigers but you don't there's like

whole swaves of these animals that you don't really learn about because people are very like dinosaurs and us and we've got animals and you don't realize there's like so many interesting weird animals

that lives on this planet and so I think on one level I was like I want to write a show that doesn't feel like he was an update on my life. And then the annoyingly I got a review, and I think it was The Guardian where he was like,

yet another show where she just updates you on her life. And I was like, no, this isn't actually. This is about animals. But I was like, no, I am actually capable of writing a show. But so there was that element to it. And then I think it was like finding the reasons behind that. Like, do you ever think, I feel like with writing, you often don't realize what you're secretly trying to say.

Like, you'll be like, oh, I wrote this. story about someone who's carrying around the locked box and they can't open it. And then suddenly you're like, oh, I feel really close off. This is the Stephen King Tommy Knockers. Did you ever read Tommy? No, no. It's about a writer, obviously, in Maine, obviously, but he, there's a little village where it turns out an alien has landed nearby or some alien artifact. And it's supercharging everyone's creativity. And they're coming up with mad inventions. They're getting a hair dryer and a toaster and turning it into a portal gun. You know, they're just building loads of mad stuff. But it's all our control and they can't bear it and they're all burnt out. And he wrote that when he was off his

tits on cocaine. Can't really remember. There's an onion headline like, yeah, seems like the sort of thing I'd have written. I always think of that exactly like, oh no, we, this is this is one of those arguments for why the artist is not necessarily right about the interpretation of their art. Yeah, because you can't, you don't realize what you're hiding. But also what I say is you can't hide when you're writing. You think you can be can't. And like with this show, there were elements that revealed themselves to me really later on. And the process that linked it. Okay.

So I'd be like, like one of the, one of the things that really hit me was I was writing about prehistoric animals and I thought I was writing about it for wonder and excitement. And then you suddenly think, no, why I'm looking at this is because we're living in a mass extinction. And then you think, well, a lot of these were going extinct because of climate change. And so that is a comparison we have to something relevant to now and thinking about deep time because the situation we're in with climate change.

you're so unprecedented, that you have to look at millions of years ago was the last time the climate changed this rapidly. And, you know, 10,000 years ago was the last time that animals had to encounter such insane habitat losses and stuff like that. And so, like, actually, it was, like, useful for me to get some sort of solace from the scariest things. The only way to get solace was to think of, like, real deep time. Yes.

And then when you're thinking about real deep time, you sort of then start feeling calmer about this because it feels less significant because you're like, ah, look, in the grand scheme things. We're nothing. And then it started being about big things and small things, long time and short time. And then you sort of find the themes and motifs. And then you realise, and also this is my other thing about writing, you're you. So it's always going to link together because you're you. So no matter how disparate it is, that's all you.

That's all your life. Yes. Oh, coincidentally, once again, it all fits together. Yeah, right. So you don't actually have to worry too much if you've got things. That's a lovely thing about it. And then said what's really. fun is like what I've really enjoyed and felt glad about was I had enough time to enrich

it so I had enough time to sort of really see links and patterns examining it really change things get feedback from trusted people get a few little bits and bobs like um I think it's Christopher my powerful boy gave me this really great bit that I use in it well I've got this bit about pigeons and then he was like you say they've carried your messages and he's like yeah they say I've got a phone now and now I just I've got a phone. now fuck you and I don't really love it love like he just gave me that joke and like I also work with Tom parry yes we know and love and which was amazing for me like genuinely felt like a deep precise thing that I desperately wanted to do because like I've known Tom for 20

years and I love him so deeply I really vibe with him as a person and his creative energy exactly I feel like I like get that and I have loved his work and how he makes work for 20 years and I just knew when I realized I was like this is about parenting and about this and I want it to be hearty and warm and I was like the fact that he would do it I was like this is so perfect because that's exactly the person I would want to like

be a part of this and he was so helpful the thing about the thing I always remember about Tom who I love and it also got a really lovely glow there and go oh yes you've known him 20 years we're all now no but he's a lovely Anyway, I know I will never forget you guys seeing we are the champions, arm in arm, you and Crosby at the, it was at the Perrier Party when like, did you win and they got nominated or you both got nominated?

No, we didn't get nominated same year. I won the newcomer in 2006, so it might have been then. I don't, I don't remember. Because they got nominated in 2007, but back then, so me and Matthew Crosby used to go out 20 years ago and we'd broken up and it was very like, oh, I'm not going to be there if they're there. You know, so I didn't go. And then they, what was funny about, 2007 periods, they showed a picture of it and it's like, oh, there's a literal criminal.

Oh, wow. Oh, yeah, those were the days. And it's good that there's days and no longer. But the joy of maturing as a comic and maturing as an artist and maturing as a person and a friend in that way. But having somebody in your life that long, and also somebody can put up with the things about either annoying or difficulty, though.

Yes. But, yeah, Tom was incredibly helpful to me. And what was fun with that is I've never really worked with the director at length. Like my friend John Nick Roberts has come in and done a day with me. Will Adam Stowe has often helped me? Ed Gorgon is often like come and help me for a bit. But I've never said, okay, this is the director of the project. And they're going to be with me.

And in fact, I'm going to see him on Wednesday next to which is really excited. And I'm excited for him to see the full show and stuff like that. But basically, it was really cool to have him as a sounding board to talk things through and to know that he gets it. He has young kids too. He understands it all. But also that his vibe is such a loving one, joyful one. And so that was something really important for me to keep maintaining that energy.

Well, the thing that Tom said that I never, I always sort of associate this thought with. Oh, Tom, he's the this thought guy. Which is that he said people want to make people often, he didn't call it a mistake, but he said comics often make people want to laugh and think. He says, no, no, no, you want to make them laugh and feel. I'm like, oh, that's kind of distilate Tom Parry. And that's one of the things about your shows. And it's one of the things I find that I, I overlook too easily.

It's when I sort of go, I want to get the stuff across and I want it to be really explosively funny. And I often wonder, in retrospect, looking back on my work, I wonder if I'd sort of neglected the feeling stuff because I just got so much less of a facility with it. We just have to remember why you want it. Why do you want to get that across? The reason you want to talk about climate, it's because you deeply feel about it. And I think as well, there was something, a couple of things really early on trying to write political stuff. Will Adamsdale, first time I did a political show came and helped me for a few days in a week and it was so significant to me. So one of the things he said was like, every time you're going to come out and say something really sincere and deeply felt or really important to you, you have to undermine it as quickly as possible.

Yeah, okay. And I really believe that and it's been such a fun thing. Because even when you've undermined it, you still said the thing up top. 100%. You can always have your cake and eat it. And the undermining can be different levels. And you can undermine it by pretending you're lying. You can do so much.

And I love that balance. And that's something that I think I have been working with for a long time. It's like the sleight of hand of that. And like, I really mean this. Do I? Who am I? And playing with your own knowledge of your limitations and your hypocrisies or whatever. And also, I think there's something that.

that I realized, and I think I'm changing slightly because I'm trying to inhabit a more objective space sometimes of being like, no, fuck them, I'm right, they're wrong, which I would not do before as much. Okay, okay. Oh, you're trying to do that more? Yeah, because I think, and I think it's a slightly gendered thing, quite often you see male stand-ups,

and they approach things with this universality that are individual. So black women always do this, men's, not that everyone says this, they don't, but like, with political stuff, you have people like, well, the political world is. this and this. And they act like that. Whereas I think the way I've always tried to come to it, partly because I feel like I didn't really come to my politics really, in a meaningful sense, till quite late. So I've always felt a bit like on catch-up and a bit of an amateur and a bit. And also, if you're hanging out with people who are genuine activists and like me,

you're sort of a performer, you feel always like, oh, fuck, these people, they know what they're doing. I feel that all the time. I'm so pleased to it. You also feel like that. And also, you're like these are the brave people these are people like getting arrested these are people the whole lives this my life is like a cushy life where sometimes people pay me to go to the Bahamas you know and it's slightly off and like also around people you know people who've read theory it is dry and boring and I don't need to read it my brain will just go I agree you know or like I've read as much as I can but so you always come from a position of slight like oh fuck I don't feel an authority on this so I feel like when I write stuff about politics it's about

me and my journey and how I feel about learning these things. And so I'm trying to come from it like, this is what I'm up to and this is what I believe. Not. The world is this. And people do this and I do that because that's not what I feel. And I think weirdly the older I get, the more I'm trying to inhabit a slight position of like, no, fuck you. I'm not changing my mind. And no, I'm not saying, this is just me how I feel.

So I'm trying to sort of see if that's the case. That's really interesting. That's really interesting. I think we're coming at that from opposite perspective. It's going, I'd like to do something new. I'm like, yes, I definitely have kind of casually said things are like this before. But I think I worry. Also, I think it's kind of good on stage to do that in a lot of ways.

And I think, I don't know. And I think probably at times, it's just complicated. And I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think with political stuff, it's always a push and pool because the wider context shifts and changes in ways that are almost imperceptible. But, like, you'll notice a certain joke that has an energy to it doesn't work anymore because that has happened. Like, I've definitely had that

with, like, Mamdani getting elected in New York. It's been so fucking amazing. And it has shifted the global political landscape. Like, in terms of what people think is possible and in terms of our hopeful people are.

Yes. And I've really noticed that because I had a bit in my show that was quite sad about, like, being on the left and being like, we're thriving, aren't we? We're thriving. And now it's like, well, that is not entirely the same feeling anymore.

And you have to adapt to that really quickly as things change, you know? Yes. Do you, do you, how do you feel about having kind of authority or agency is not quite the right word? No, I think this is what I've been thinking about. It's like, I think I like the idea of trying slightly to have slightly more authority. But I always, the sort of, I don't feel like I do. And I like the idea of as I get older, feeling like maybe when I'm 50, I might be allowed to stand up and be like, listen to me, I'm 50, you know.

You get a load of tattoos and you get arrested, but I'm an old lady. That's like old lady power. The dream, yeah. So, well, I think the sort of authority that I mean is kind of, like, I've always, like, in terms of you, the political parts of your comedy, a lot of your comedy, I've always felt like you had lots of authority. I've been, I've kind of, you sound like you've at least spoken to someone who's done the reading. Yeah, I have, and I have done the reading, and I do really care about it. And it is things that I'm obsessed with and interested in and think about all the time and want to make sure that at that time, at least, when I'm on stage, that is what I genuinely think and believe.

And then I know that as I look back on things, I'll be like, ooh, that was, oh, I don't believe that. Okay, okay. But, like, you do want to feel like you're really meaning it. Yeah, definitely. I think that I've sort of been very envious of your authority because I worry, I try to do the reading, but I worry that I'm bad at arguments.

And I worry that, like, when I heard there was such a thing as a centrist dad, I was like, oh, God, I hope I'm not a centrist dad, because I don't think I'm a centrist, I think I'm of the left, but I find that I'm not very good at arguing. I can't, I don't have kind of arguments to have. I'm not a centrist because those guys are always arguing. I just, I just feel that like it's like I'll say a thing and I'll go, yes, it's this. And then I'll read a counter argument. I'll go, oh God, is it that? Have I was understood? No, I don't know. I think, I sometimes think is a lot of the way operate just because of how my brain is you know like certain ways of thinking pardon me certain

ways of like i feel this so deeply i can't do anything but this and i think if the way that you are is somebody that is wanting to get it right and isn't wanting to be dogmatic that's actually really good and helpful and also i think like there is a case of like trusting and listening to comrades and seeing who who you know is worth listening to and who can support you and stuff but i also think um I've been really thinking about like the left I don't want I don't see my job as being critical of the left or being nitpicking of the actual left ever so I'm not going to be one who's going to start any public beef of anyone on the left ever even if some of them seem to be too into certain authoritarian things or some of them take an approach that I think is okay if you are genuinely of the left and I'm I don't mean the label party you know what I mean like I'm If you're genuinely, well, there's like 20 people on the left in the Labour Party Show. But like, if you're genuine in the left, I'm not here to undermine that at all. I'm here to wait until there is a reasonable chance and then pour everything I have behind that chance.

Right. And I really believe it. Like, you know, with the Corbyn Project, I really felt like that was a real chance for us to get a government in power that would improve everybody's lives. And then I felt like I had to take that chance with everything I have. And like in New York, it was the same with Mamdani. Like, people saw. that chance, they knew it was real and they had to put everything behind it. And I sort of feel like the way that I want is to not undermine anyone who's genuinely trying on my side, even if I don't

100% wholeheartedly agree with them, or even if I have certain issues with them. Obviously, if the issues are like big, that's complicated. But like, if somebody's slightly different to me in their approach, I'm not going to be like, I'm going to be like, thank God they're doing it. Yeah. And And my other thing that I really want is to, like, be open to people, like, younger than me, people whose politics is slightly different to my own, people come from different backgrounds, be open to them in the hope that that calibrates me, educates me, keeps me not. Like, the last thing I would want is to think I was on the left but be a reactionary. You know, like, how there's people in their 60s who are transphobes,

and they think that they are doing something. And actually they are reactionary. Or, you know, there's been reactionary positions held by people who are older who think they're on the left. And, like, I just don't want that. And, like, anything I can do to do that is good, hopefully. That's, like, my plan. And I hope it doesn't seem smug. But, like, I basically, everybody is going to be in a position all the time where you're like,

oh, am I doing the right thing? Oh, fuck up. I fucked up. Oh, God. Like, I think. And you just hope that, like, the wider web of people, some people do more at other times. Like, I often think, 2010, 2011, 2012. I did loads of being at protests,

organising things, doing stunts, political things that were action. And now I don't do as much of that. I write shows like that. And I've got young kids and I want to do more like that. But I also have to be like, well, I did do that back then. And now I see people doing it. And part of me thinks, oh, I want you to know.

I eat to death. And I was still wood. And actually, my politics is actually good. But like, they are doing it because they can and they have capacity to do it. And at different times in your life, you can and you will. I've got friends who are coming to doing more activism stuff in their 40s now and I know that I will come back to it and I've got friends who their whole life is doing activism stuff

but they also aren't writing or performing or whatever and like we all have a thing that is our calling and like we do it in our own way that sounds really religious and I think it's quasi-no you're totally right I suppose like um I think go on no I'm not going to say we're comics and also we just want to be silly and have fun and like that's something that I've been trying to say on stage. So Josie Long is so great.

She's so great, isn't she? Now is the time of Monsters, is currently on tour through all the way through to December, coming to Leicester, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Kendall. More info at josie Long.com or on Instagram at Josie Long. And you can find out how to see me live at Stuart Goldsmith.com.com.com. You can sign up as well to the ComCod mailing list,

which, listen, we've scheduled this. now. We're doing scheduled mailouts. There's going to be actual mailouts. I don't know if you can imagine such a thing. What might you expect from a scheduled... Well, I mean, the fact that it actually gets sent, that's the key element with scheduling it. But what might you expect from a Comcom pod mailing list? Stuff about the guests. Probably odd little things like a reminder to buy Adam Bloom's book or a link to watch Mike Kaplan's new special. Maybe some summaries of recent episodes in case you've missed out on one, and some other bits and bobs. We're actually going to bother putting together a proper newsletter. And if I'd said that to you two, three years ago,

you'd have said, sure, mate, we've heard this kind of chat before. But now I've got to producer Callum. And we both have access to Google Drive. So the only way is up. Sign up to the main list at Stuartgoldsmith.com slash podcast. And coming up in this second half, we're going to talk about building jokes live, but writing endings like poetry. Oh, deep stuff. We're going to talk about Josie creating a superbly visual and surprising and brilliant finale. I even wondered if we should leave this bit in because it does, it doesn't spoil the ending, but you get a heads up on the ending of her show, and it's so great and transformative.

So when we start talking about cave paintings, if you like, you can turn the sound down for a few minutes. We'll talk about the harsh reality of mixed-build gigs, redefining success on her own terms, and we'll find out. whether the bastard's happy. Let's get back to Josie Long. We do this bit about encountering Richard Tyson on the train and trying to get them to move.

Yes. So my wife told me about this. And I hadn't... No, no, no, she, because he saw the show last night, she came back and told me about it. I was like, hang on, this doesn't sound like this was in the version of the show that I saw. It's not the first one. Okay, there's a thing there.

It's like there's a nugget of a thing. Yes. And there's a desire to write about a subject. and that thing might help me illuminate that subject, but I don't know how yet. Yes. So what happens next for that bit? Can you sort of chart an expected likely artistic process and sort of timing and the application of what tools to get that bit to one day be saying what you want? That genuinely happened to me on a train last month.

The next day, that day I talked about it on stage and it took about 15 minutes because I was so excited. and I was just recounting what I did and I did that. Then, since then, I've been doing it on station, trying to work out and build it into a bit. And the building of it into a bit has been adding little jokes. Like I add a joke about Holmes Under the Hammer, I add a joke about little things and just build it out. Those jokes that you're adding are sitting down writing in an exercise book or on it.

No, just on the stage. Just playing with it. Okay. But I do, when I'm writing a show, do things written as well. let me if I was talking about the show I just wrote I came into it with just the splurge

and lots of ideas and then I would practice those ideas on stage trying to refine them and often I would end up doing something 10 times and being like there's nothing in this you have to give it up

but with that one I was also drawing pictures that I was bringing on stage and thinking about it relating and it but I do mostly write on stage but what I write specifically is the things that are very usually in the last two minutes of the show so much of that will be me writing over and over again what is the exact line I'm saying what is the thing

I'm trying to get here or I will I collect lines that I want to say often those won't be jokes those would be things I want in the show just something you like that is a true distillation of the point yes yes and I have notebooks where I just write and collect lines and collect things I want to write about and collect news articles, things that are interesting, things like a scrapbook vibe, and they're getting out of the show. And I remember when I was trying to organise the show and I hadn't written the ending yet,

even though I knew I had this idea for it, I had all these post-it notes. And me and Tom, it was like, show, show, show, show, and it was just about working out, okay, I'm going to have this thematic element, I'm going to put a bit of that there. So you do end up going, this was a very cluttered show to write

and it made me feel physically sick a lot of the time until I'd written it because I knew I had all these disparate elements and I knew that the pacing of it needed to be that I'm introducing every theme I'm bringing back themes at certain times I'm linking them I'm calling things back I'm setting up a callback for the end I wanted to have mirrors at the beginning and the end of certain things

I wanted to have certain structural things I knew that at this point it would be very sad and I wanted to have a few moments that were like sitting in the sadness but then I'd know I'd have to bring it straight back so I'd be thinking about that and a lot of it was just luck along the way

you'd be like ha if I do that bit there brilliant and there were loads of ways that would start out in different ways so I remember I first started the show and I thought I was going to start by doing, we were watching the TV show and we were watching the news

and it said a million dead fish and that was going to be the start and then after a while I was like I can't have the start with this fucking massive downer and then work that out so then there were a lot lots of things that started and then I moved it around.

And then gradually, sometimes I feel like I have these ideas and it's pure intuition, but I believe it so deeply it feels like divine intervention. So I was like, right, well, the start is a slideshow. And the end is a cave painting tour. And I've got those locked in. And then Tom was really helpful because he was like, you've got this bit about cave painting. You need to write something about cave painting and bring it in.

And there was a bit about wonder about these things being found at the bottom of the ocean. And they discovered 100 new species at the bottom of the ocean. and me getting really excited and then they bring them up and I'm like oh it's all just sea shit it's just fucking crabs who cares it's a crab and then the joke's like you want me to be excited about a crab

and a cucumber what is it? Sandwich I ate in oven and I was like I really loved it but it was not it was not good enough and Tom just kept being like that I have to go I have to go and I'd be like no no no no and then I cut it and obviously it was better

and all the cuts that Tom made and it was very funny because it was a bit like your dead puppy's gone to the farm he kept being like they'll be in the first half of the torture I've been a first half of the tour show before I did the Richard Tice bit is things I cut from the show

there's a bit about politics in Kent there's a bit about my hair going grey and I wanted to have this whole other theme in the show about me ageing but that mainly got cut but now it's in the first half so it does actually work that's a lovely way to think how am I going to do the first half when I'm on tour

take all the bits you cut let them breathe let them find their own way rather than try to mash them into a thing they don't fit in and it's so much better because then And it sets up, but in a very diffuse way, because you're like, oh, I've, I've talked about these things, but it's just me chatting. And then there's a callback in the second half where about this Neanderthal woman grinding down her teeth.

And in the first I've got this big bit about grinding my teeth. And it's just so lovely. And it's actually free callback that wasn't normally in the show. Stickland so much harder. And I love callbacks. And I know it's tacky, but I just can't help it. I love when you can set something up. And a friend of mine gave me a call back the other day that I didn't expect that's in the show now that's

so much better. And it's like, I just love it. I love putting those links in. But, yeah, the process is complicated and it often makes me feel physically sick. Structure is not my favourite thing. And Tom was very helpful at, we spent a day putting all these cue cards on the wall, working out how to move them around. But the reason I started this story is I realised I had 50 cards for the last two minutes of the shut. But were all things like, civilization is a single catastrophic event.

I'd be like, well, I want to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you sort of look at all the things you want to say and you work out, okay, can I say that off the cuff as part of something? Can I, is that actually imbued in something else? And there were a lot of times when Tom would go, you're saying this, but you kind of have said this later. You don't realize because you think it's distinct, but you say it differently. And like trying to be really confident enough to be like the subtext will be there. And obviously some reviews don't actually notice that.

Like you hope that it's there and you hope that there's general vibes there. And then also. it's just really interesting some decisions get made in the moment and you're so glad of it I was really lucky my managers produced the show and they were so open to like

really trying to make it work exactly right in the space so we had these painted banners so you were like ensconced but you don't realise in this canvases and then at the end of the show in Edinburgh this is a spoiler all this UV came on and you were in like a 360 UV world with like these cave paintings

So it's a great moment. Thank you. Thank you. And then in front of you the backdrop was like covered in UV like all different kinds of splashes and paintings and stuff. And it was when I realized that

it was such a dream thing to realize and to have it happen, we were going to just have a UV torch that I went from one to one. Oh yeah. And on tour I'm having to do that a bit. Yeah, gotcha. And it's still good.

But having that all round and realizing we were going to do that, it made a show quicker. When me and Tom realized that, it was like, huh, this has improved the show massively and it's almost by chance. Yes.

Like, it was wonderful. And in that moment, it's one of the greatest things I've feel I've ever been able to do in my life. And I know it's embarrassing, but I love it. Basically, every single time in Edinburgh, people are, oh, ha. You're doing it? It felt like magic. And it felt like magic for me because it looked so beautiful. And it still does look really.

And it's all, the content of them is all structural references. Yeah, it's so good. And also, I liked the idea. I don't know why. I just liked the idea of having a part of the show that felt like a tour around a cave painting. because I'd done that as research for the show. Also, I did a lot of research for this show. Like, I went on a research trip.

I went on an art course. I was trying to, like, expand my practice. So I did, like, go on an art course and I did try to not rush it. Just, like, but that's kind of thing. It's so rich. It's such the better for it. It's so nice for me, and I'm pretty indulgent. No, it's great.

It's so rich for those, like, you can tell you talked about that. The fact of the cave paintings, the fact that the idea of an extinction event of extinct previous civilisations of animals. You know, civilisations of animals. That's not a civilisation, is it? Previous generations of animals. And the fact of the relationship we have them now is in cave paintings and the primitiveness and the suggestion that are we going to end up being primitive again?

Yeah. It's like that, that, the initial relationship between extinction and the threat of extinction is such a good platform. It's such a bedrock of like, What a core central idea. Thank you. Because you could almost, and I know you didn't necessarily do this, but you could almost go, right, let's do extinction,

let's do a spider diagram of all the interesting visual things that could connect. And I think when I was younger, when I was first writing, I think I had less to say and I would be grasped. But I think the older you get, you just have more things in your life that you want to talk about, more things to say. And also, I knew when I thought of that on some level, but only through giving it at the time, you realize all the different reasons you're doing it.

And also, like, what the thing I would say is, anything you're doing will expand your stand-up practice, really, if you let it in. Whatever your hobby is, is going to be doing something that you can use to inform your stand-up. Or, like, if you're doing other types of writing, it just will. It's just cool. It's like a reflex. I don't know. I really love, I was talking to someone about this, and I was like,

we're so lucky we've got to, like, the lifelong friend that, like, helps us live and helps us understand ourselves and, like, helps us work things out. And that feeling as well when you're workshopping a show and suddenly you're on stage and suddenly for whatever reason you say it the way you're supposed to be saying it at that moment and you come off and you're like, I fucking got it.

It took me this fucking... But there are a few bits of the show that were like profound realisations of it's been staring me in the face the whole time. Like genuinely there's a bit in a show where I talk about taking mushrooms at Glastonbury and I did take mushrooms at Glastonbury and I did have a realisation of like,

oh, this is how I need to end the show. And I remember at the time thinking to myself this is a mushroom's realisation tomorrow this is going to be nonsense. And then the next day I was like, no, it wasn't. I've worked it out. It's how to end the show. That is right.

And there were lots of stuff like that. It's so funny. I think of the, like I'm already, just listening to it. I'm already kind of going, oh yeah, that bit that I've got earlier that's about. I've got a chunk at the beginning which is about recognizing. And this is like at the moment, this shows are work in progress. And it's going to be, I'm going to do two weeks at next. Amazing.

But there's a beginning chunk which is about realizing that the only good state school near us. religious and the war between me and my wife about should we lie and it's like then later there's a more of a throwaway joke I've got about doing stand-up with an agenda each stand-up should be like rock and roll doing stand-up with agenda it's a bit like Christian rock do you mean this is a nice little kind of observation itself but then I realized like I've just felt a bit like it's too much goddy stuff here I'm not doing a show about religion and so I separated them and I put that with a little bit at the end and I'm like oh that sort of turned into a callback now. But already I'm thinking, why am I writing about this stuff? Oh, it's because it's

about hypocrisy and how much hypocrisy can I bear and how much would I be willing to appear to be one thing whilst doing something else? And that feeds into all the climate stuff. So now listening to you, I'm thinking, maybe it should be situated in a church. Like getting big, make it bigger. It's exciting. Like with this show, I did think I'd like to be slightly more theatrically ambitious. I would like to have some more theatrics in it. And I would like it to be. And like, there's and a few things with it. What I wanted with this show, and I was talking to my manager about it at its inception,

was I was like, I want the show itself to be some sort of activism in some way. Like, I want it to be more of a clear thing. And I want it to be slightly not as situated in, because the last show I wrote was too situated in very specific acts of Parliament in British politics. And that wasn't helpful because I wanted it to be slightly broader. and pardon me I wanted it to be more broad artistically

and I also yeah and I feel like those things hopefully is what it is like with the theatric stuff and I remember do you know what's mad because the part of the show is about iterations of self and I think a long creative life you have ebbs and flows of confidence and sometimes I feel so confident at ease

and other times I feel so low and so bleak and like I'm shit and I haven't achieved these things and I look at other people who have and I wish I had and all these things I can't do and all these jobs I would never get anymore and blah blah blah blah and it feels really sad and I think oh but like what was mad or is I started looking back at myself 20 years ago like read my diary from when I was 21, 22

I thought about my first two shows that I wrote that were really much quite unsubed my first show was very unselfconscious because I hadn't really appreciated the depth of people who hated me online and so I was very much like hello and then it was like trying to get that to that place but it was really useful because that show was very artistic and I had these little card paintings that I did,

drawings that I did and worked with props and I sort of wanted to like channel some of that for myself like use my old self to give my new old self some hope and stuff and like how would young innocent Josie have approached this kind of thing when I read my Doris from when I was 20 it was really clear to me I was having a bit of a chaotic summer that

some of but at the same time I was in love with stand-up so in love with it I was obsessed with it it was my greatest love every single entry would be I did a gig with this person this person underlined underlieb they did this

they did this I loved it I felt like this I'm excited about this and it was all about comedy and boys but like comedy many and like to look at that and be like that is how deeply in love with it I was then and I'm not less now but my life is so you know I've got kids

tired blah I've been doing it a long time I've got more politics in my blah blah blah I said sort of get back to that and think about it in those terms and think about that person who just wanted to make art all the time

and try and like inject that into my art art, inject that into my show now was really cool and like I want to do more of that like remembering that like you're carrying all your past versions of you with you and they can like come and help you when you're struggling as shit

I watched a really good film called My Old Ass, I've seen that no it's got Aubrey Plaza great title I just go across a podcast It's like, you know, behind the bastards, which is like, I imagine it has themes in common. It's called This Fucking Guy. Great title.

Well, my old ass is also, what a super title. It's such a beautiful film. It's about 18-year-old girl who, through chance, taking mushrooms, can communicate with her 40-year-old self. I've seen the trailer. Yes, it does look incredible. Yeah, you've seen it. Yeah. But it was really helpful for me this year to watch that.

And like, because I was thinking about back then, I was thinking a lot about the past and the future and stuff like that. And it was really helpful for writing this show too. Like, there's so much like that. I don't know. I'm trying to think how we've put the show together. And there was just a lot of agonizing and rewriting and the ending, really, really thinking what other things I must put in.

And how can I possibly try to hopefully make them jokes? And how can I make the runts as small as possible and the silliness as bigger possible? And then I was thinking about the overall energy of the show. show, which was like, I want the energy of me in the show to be like playful, flirtatious open so that when there are the emotional moments, even then I'm trying to keep a grain of that in it, so that it's never too low. Because there were times when I was prepping it, well, come on, and the energy would be too low, and people would leave. And I were like, that was a sad hour and you didn't enjoy it. You know, and it's how to let stuff go.

You said there are things that you must put in it. What makes something a must? oh like a weird zeal on my part just knowing, just knowing, I just know just like how you know how long to wait you know, you know on stage, you just got the voice and you just know, like, you know when there's a heckle and you just know what to say, you just fucking know. That's the voice.

Yes, intuition. So everything you said, just to clarify, everything you said was a thing you really mean there but you knew how pretentious it sounded so you did it in a voice, but you did actually mean you just know You know how long... No, I totally agree.

But it is blanky. But you know what? And you build a sense of some kind of comic timing or intuition or whatever. Yes. And I think with this, it was just a gradual realizing that there are things that I really want to say. Yeah. And they are very deep to me. And how do I then...

And also then being... You're at a point where you're like, so this show is all very well. But I haven't said this yet. And this has to be in this. Yeah. There are things that I'm just like... And then sometimes, like, what was good with Tom would, he'd be like, you think you haven't said that.

But you kind of have... have because this is similar to that and I'm like oh yeah I guess it is and like it was useful to like I'm not to repeat too much but I just like the idea of getting as many of the things I've been thinking about and things I've been caring about in as possible and quite often I look back on my old notebooks and there'll be whole bits that I'm like oh that never got in and that whole strand had to be remedied and stuff but you try and just stack it in because you want it to be rich and full of like everything you've got at that moment but it's weird because I wrote a book of short stories

and when I was writing that over the, as I was putting it together, I realized I was like, oh no, I want this energy, this energy and this energy and it doesn't have this yet, so it has to have that and then weirdly being like, okay, I think I've got everything in and I know it's not perfect but that's all I've got. And it felt like with the show

it was like, well, I've got everything I've tried and I've got nothing else. But it's mad too because you're also then trying to shoehorn in like I had a big bit about a hamster and like shoehorning that in and realizing that that's kind of relevant and like Yeah, if there's only there can be a way to make the hamster relevant, then I get to do my hamster thing.

Isn't that odd that you were like, no, no, no, it's relevant because you are you and you care about and you want to say it. But also, it's kind of, it's like an open goal for a critic, unless you can find a way that the hamster represents life. But also, like, I wanted to get loads of animals stuff in. I didn't really appreciate that. I was doing that until half a three years. I was like, oh. Oh, they were like that. Big animals. And this is a tiny little animal. Yes, and a crow. That's as a no one. I was thinking to it was useful to have the time in space to discuss it with friends

because there's a few bits in the show that happened I've got a friend and we were out and he's the one that told me about bioluminescence and when he told me I was like ha this is this is my this is for my show and then I took to another friend and he's the one who told me about falcons hunting and I was like

all of these people are like because I'm living with this show long enough they're letting me see it from different perspectives and when he told me about bioluminescence the next day I was suddenly not I can have UV everywhere Oh, my God. And then when we realised that we could do it.

Yeah, yeah. And then we couldn't even try it out. And I spent weeks, paint, not weeks, days, painting with my friend and, well, a couple of friends, painting these banners. And then I spent a whole day on my own, losing my fucking mind, putting UV all over the backdrop. You can't even see when it's dry. Yeah, of course. Have I done enough? Oh, you have to do it in a UV light.

You have to paint in a UV light. Well, that would have been smart. That would have been smart. I was paying it like, well, like, I can't see that. That's okay. No, that's the artist, Josie. Of course you wouldn't do it in a UV light. That's a good of bullshit

Gets for D to save time. No. That would have been, I wish I had your brain, I wish. But it was one of those things. We couldn't test out the event in the venue in the dresser rehearsal. And if it didn't work, we had nothing else.

Yes. And then I've got a video when we first turned it on and we're all like, oh my God! Because it worked. And it's such a gamble, you know? It's such a goosebumps thing

just to remember that it is so... Thank you. I'm really proud of it. And it's just a little show. I'm going to, I've got an idea for how to film it, not as a stand-up special, but as a kind of straight-to-camera thing

with lots of different stuff and I think I'm going to do that off my own back. With the view to doing what with it? I mean, it's still effectively a stand-up special. Yeah, I mean, I'll put it out. I suppose I doubt anyone's going to put it out. Oh, you mean, so you're drawing a distinction between it being a piece of stand-up comedy that you've committed to video and a proper special. You're saying, oh, it wouldn't be like a proper special.

It would just be a show. Oh, no, what I mean is I wouldn't film it on stage with an audience. Oh, I see. I see it. I'm going to film it in a slight different way, but it will probably be a long show. Yes, gotcha. okay so you oh with no audience that's a really interesting because some of it is very stand-upy well it is stand-up in it yes but yeah you're right i don't know how that will work

i want i want you to do both because i want to show it to people who can't see it it it should exist as a document it should i would like to film it i will try and film it before the end of this tour in fact i really should work up filming it in glasgow um yeah thanks i've been so kind about it and i like it's so nice of you thank you thanks for like wanting to talk about it. Because I'm, I am wrestling near constantly with climate and how do I talk about climate and how do I make a complicated, I mean, I've got like pat things to say about it than I say on other people on climate podcasts, you know, obviously it's frightening, it's complicated, it's apparently a long way off, or sort of ostensibly a long way off to say, and it's a downer.

It's bad. It's bad. And it's sad. And they've come out on a Friday night and they don't want to think about the thing. And I think just this morning I was talking. to an academic who was interested sort of doing some just was like kind of doing one of those research I don't know if you get approached for doing these like

I'm writing a thing and I always say yes because they're so I always end up coming up with a thing I'm like oh hang on let me write down the thing I've just said

I think it's most articulates it's like a great it triggers and inspires you yes yes because I'm busy thinking about being funny you're just trying to make a case yes for a thing you believe

yeah you're so right it's really helpful to do stuff like yeah so I think just this morning I was like she said do you want people to feel or to think? And I was like, I don't know that I want, like I have an agenda for how they feel or think. I'm grappling with it all and I want them to feel like it's okay to be grappling with it. Because I spoke to someone recently, very good comic, lovely person and they sort of, and this isn't unique at all. And it's totally understandable. They said,

oh, I just decided a few years ago, I can't cope with this. So I don't think about it. Which is a totally understandable self-preservation technique. I get it. I get when you would judgment. That's like, yeah. Totally. But I want to grapple with it and I feel better at grappling in it because I feel like I've given myself permission or been given permission by some things I've read or lectures I've listened to. I've been given permission to grapple with it. So that's what I want is I want people to feel permission to grapple. Yeah. And I think I just want people to feel less alone a lot of the time. Or I want to spread this idea of like strong collective consciousness where it's like I'm here to say despite everything, my spirit is really. relentless and I'm not fucking giving up and you can have that too and we're all here and we keep going you know like you want to and that's preaching to the choir fine great but like for me it was always like to show people they're not alone and to give them strength to like do better things than I can do because this is all I can do and it's enough but like this is what I can it's not what I can do but like I'm not that good at other stuff and like I think yeah for you to say

it's all right to acknowledge that this is fucked up and difficult and there's lots of things and complicated. Great. You don't have to, because you can't turn around the say, it's simple and easy, and here's the solution. You're totally, totally. I think I felt so kind of, um, um, um, imprisoned by that for a long time. Like, that's why I, I should solve this? Yes, exactly. Like, why should, like, that put me off being a more political comment, comic, because I would think, well, I don't know the solution. Yeah, yeah. So if someone goes, well, what do we do then? I'm going to fall to a bit, but you don't have to know the solution. And sometimes, it's not about knowing the solution. It's about thinking of a very silly, absurd, funny thing.

You know, like, what I love about the standard phase. You can do all the research you want. But if you then find that the book is heavy and if you hit yourself, people laugh. That's what the book was there for. Do you know what I mean? You can care about all these things. It's like Stuart, you know,

you can, Stuart Lee had that book with his trousers fell down. Such a basic clowning thing, but it's so funny. And there's so much stuff like that. We're like, we want to include all this intellectual stuff and it is there. But always out of the heart, we're just silly clowns, stupid shit. There's, you know, silly. And so you can always mock them on.

There's a lady called Belina Rafi. Do you know Belina? She does a course where she teaches burnt out sustainability people to do stand-up. Whoa. She's amazing. And she's so delightful. She just has silly, delightful energy. I don't think she performs stand-up herself, but she's like a kind of...

A facilitator. Yeah, like a facilitator and a lover of comedy and climate and learning to love. laugh about it. And she's, I've never done one of her courses, but we have long conversations. And she absolutely, I would not have been able to do any of it without her saying, just remember the silliness. Because there are so many speed bumps and hurdles and other, like 10 foot tall walls in the way of making people laugh about a frightening, sad thing, a frightening or sad or both thing. That actually to be, to try and learn and remember to be silly about it is such a superpower. power.

So I can't, I don't know how to freeze that as a question. No, but letting yourself, what's been fun, I think it's come slightly as well from writing a book where I didn't have to be funny is I've actually also really enjoyed going, now this is a moment of sadness in the show and I want to put it in there. I want to be, have a sad bit where it's sad. And then I will pull it back. And I want to be able to say, this is really heavy, sorry, and then pull it back. Because like, you can't.

It's a long show. I don't have a just a joke joke joke yeah yeah yeah I'm so resistant to doing that I think I'm so resistant like in a way that I totally get it's the right thing but I find it so hard to do because I just feel like I've got club instincts that I can't let go of that I'm like but I don't want to reveal my actual self oh do you not because that's the entire point and the only thing we're here for yeah yeah yeah I'll tell you something that happened to me the last couple of years so I was very skinned I had a new baby and my radio show got cancelled at the end of last year so this year been quite skin. And last year I was quite skinny because I couldn't be gig in tour so much. So I was like, oh, fuck, fuck. And I was lucky to get some gigs on mixed bills that were like nicely paid ones. And they were like in places that I don't normally go to on tour. And I was in the middle of the bill or opening. And I did these gigs which were like so hard. And the crowds were like, who the fuck you? We don't like you. We don't like you. What are you doing? Your shit. You don't know what you're doing. And I would leave thinking like, oh, fuck. I've

got nothing. I've been doing this 25 years. I can't do this. And it was suddenly like, oh, this is it would be like if you never did your own shows like if you didn't have your own crowd you would still be there because what you do is a particular thing it isn't for everyone lots of people do think come shit fine but like when I make my own shows I can create it right and the people that do like it like it right and that I can get the right thing and like it's mad to think like that's what I'd be like that's what my whole life would be like if I didn't have the thing I've got that I've built you know thank fuck and like thank fuck we're not just top of mics and stuff, but it's always going to feel like that.

Yes, no, I see, I'm sorry, I'm just kind of, like, I'm just dipping into that feeling of like, oh, yeah, if you weren't making your own shows, and it was all just being in the middle of a bill to audiences that didn't really get you. Yeah. And you'd end up thinking, I'd better change. Yeah. So I can work these. Yeah. Or I'll change. I'll knock all the edges off and all the bits I like and end up doing this to, yeah.

And some comics do that. And then they find when they're 35 that they hate what they're doing and they have to completely start again. or you know and also like what was mad the first time around 2005 was I did so God bless Darry Martin put me on at Big Valley where I just died so fucking hard that was 2004 yeah

but 2005 being loads of club gigs dying so hard all the fucking time and then like yeah just being like well there's nothing else I want to do so I just have to keep going in the hope that either I'll get better or something will change and still doing that

that's how it's working now I don't know you've alluded a couple of times to things having like you know TV not being not happening so much anymore or you know like those kind of things yeah I still think I'll never get booked for anything on TV again which that's maybe not a thing to say it's anything but I would love to do

anything I would love to work more I would absolutely love to but I understand that I'm quite an awkward and tricky person and I look back at when I was younger and like I think I'm very contradictory all the time I have things that I want and I also don't want them there and there were things back then like when I was doing panel shows and I was really young I was so out of my depth and frightened and I didn't have a clue and I didn't have a manager at that

that time who's like like now my managers would help me in anything I'm doing they would like be supportive and useful in a sounding board and stuff but then it would just be like well you're on that so good luck and then I show up and I do that oh have other people written stuff sure yeah well as you supposed to write stuff oh other people like thought about what they're wearing oh I haven't and then I'd be on there like oh I've got nothing to say I'm going to cry and they're never like blokey atmospheres anyway so this funny time but like yeah I would love to work more is I think my vibe at the moment is like I really would love to work more but but also I'm kind of at this point now where I think if nobody

external ever gives me any work ever again in my life it will be all like it's kind of alright like a light right man stuff and it's just the only problem is I wish I was performing to like maybe a slightly larger buffer of amount of people that would make me think like and I can definitely make it a living you know

yes yeah yeah yeah or go on or just sometimes it would be like sometimes what I like about this industry sometimes it's every now and again people like would you like this insane windfall for no reason you're like Oh, yeah, yeah, I would actually, yeah, thank you. And I'm just going to play it off like that's absolutely normal.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure. Very good, yeah, actually, yeah. We want me to go, I always think about being offered a cruise in the Bahamas and being like, oh, you're going to pay me to go on a cruise? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll think about that. Oh, yeah, I think about that. Is that your, do you think that's, has that kind of coalesced into a personal narrative

that you kind of, you've got TV opportunities, you were too young and didn't have the support that you needed. and that time is done that's like the merry-go-round has whizzed on now and that time's done? I don't know. I have no idea. Like, I'm in a place at the moment

where I think, I have no idea what would or wouldn't happen for me in my career anymore. I have no idea. I've no idea if anyone would ever be anything. And that's fine, really. I don't expect anything of anyone. But I definitely am still going to keep writing.

And like, you have been flying. I think, I look back at loads of things. I think, well, I fucked up tens and tens of opportunities in by being awkward and weird or stupid or not flowing through or tired or whatever and then I think it's just life in it you can look at it and go well that was probably on me that was not on me that was the

time which was quite sexist that was like you know there's loads of things all the time and I think you go through periods in a long life where you might be thinking oh I should quit I can't cope and then you go through periods being like no everything's fine it's lovely and like I think I am the ways that I think I'm lucky are

I love Edinburgh and I love performing and I love stand up and that is the thing that I like doing and that hope springs eternal to like see what you can do and you do something for a bit it doesn't work, you do something else for a bit you try different mediums and like, I don't know, I'd like to do more and work more 100%

it would be amazing to get any work but like, I don't know, I feel when I was little I'd be like I think I'd like to have the career of Steve Martin if I could choose, actually I'd like to have the career or like I used to really want to be like Kathy Burke when I was a teenager I was like, I'd fucking love to be like coffee bird, but I don't think I was good

as natural as coffee, but, you know, like, she's a fucking incredible act. And like, you just sort of end up being like, well, there's not, you know, we're life, it's life, there's lots going on. And I, so I feel like, I don't think I'm ambitious in a ruthless way. And I think I've never been. And I think I don't think I want to. There's a lot of that's about, isn't there? There's a lot of, like, I don't think I want to be famous or it's not a drive.

That's not a drive. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not a drug. But at the same time. It'd be useful. It'd be useful for tickets. sales and money and security, and it'd be useful for awareness and people offering you fun

things you haven't considered. That's how I sort of feel about fame. Like, that would be useful in lots of ways. And then after years of being famous and it being useful, I'd have to consider the cost. At the moment, I've got the most wonderful fame in the world. Once a month, someone goes, you used Joe Nilsmith. I love your thing. Fantastic. It's not better than me. It's perfect. And when I was on TV a bit more when I was younger, it was quite intrusive and I didn't like it. And I actually got really scared and stressed and I did all these mad. things where I'd be like, you know, like disordered eating like self-hawk because it was too stressful for me. And like, so now I really like the fact that I live in Glasgow, I sit on the bus

eating an exorine in a really ugly way and I know that no one's going to brother me and I know I can just be normal on the bus in my, you know, and I think that's a big, like when I think about now what matters to me the most is the same thing that always matters, which is I want to get better. I want to make good work. I want to have more ideas. I would obviously, everyone would like maybe a bit more money, a bit more people coming to their shows, obviously. I would love to get work made and that's that's something that happens quite a lot over a career is you have with these things you pitch they don't happen you have these things you make they don't happen you have shows they get cancelled that's like everything happens for everyone really doesn't it

in that way and like if I was I think I don't know I just would like to do I'd like to keep going not lose my mind work harder now that I've got more time make better work see what I can do always does that sound terrible I don't sound like a prick like please I would love to be employed It would be so good. I think it would have a lovely kind of narrative elegance if you, having got to the stage where you're very satisfied making your own work and powering along. Now, wouldn't it be good if TV suddenly not re-interested? You're like, oh, actually, now I can consider these things on merit because I'm busy doing my own thing.

Yeah, it's weird with things like that. Like, I don't know. There definitely is a thing where TV favours people who are like new and then I don't, I just have no idea how people think of me or what that means. and I just have to let that go because it's like, it doesn't really matter. That's another lovely aspect

of getting older within comedy of going, oh, I certainly care a lot less about some of the, it's not that I don't care so much. It's like, it's just maturity. It's just maturity. You can't control it. And you go, oh, God, these wonderful kids

and life's great and I've got a sensible attitude towards the work that I do and how I enjoy doing it. Oh, I feel a bit more mature now. And there's lots of people can do things that I could never do. Like, I'm just not a maniac.

Like, do you know, I mean, some people are a real maniacs, but in a really good way. I'm not. Like, yeah, I feel like, yeah, I feel like, when I was younger, I really felt like, oh, X, Y, Z will happen for me. And then actually X, Y, Z didn't happen. And I'm like, oh, that's like, you know? I don't know.

I would like, I don't know. Does this feel, I don't feel, I feel really self-conscious talking about it because it feels weird and I don't know. Yes. Yes. It's, my main goal is I want to be better, not lose my mind. Yeah. And hopefully get more work, but not that much more work. And the things that are really important to me

are like people I respect like in my work That is the biggest thing for me really People that I love like in my life So it's good I've got a couple of last wrap-up kind of questions Also I feel like a wanker This makes me feel really weird talking about Does it? No I don't know why

Because it's like well I can't control it And like if it's people are listening I don't know It's weird isn't it You always felt like oh it was someone about to drop me a thing And then I mention it on a podcast and it gets back There's someone oh no she doesn't care Yeah She's mature now she doesn't care

She can't. I mean, I would just like to make the point. I would like to work more. Please. Please. Do you write with people potentially disagreeing with you in mind? No. I write with what I want to say in mind. I guess sometimes I think, sometimes I'll hear a voice or something. We're like, oh, they think this. But most of the time, I think I just got something I want to say. So I'm trying to write about that. I'm not thinking about that, I think. Yeah. And also, people who disagree with you, what I've learned from, like, internet abuse, online arguments, whatever, is that they'll find a way to disagree with you no matter what. Like, you can't be like, ha ha, I've outfoxed them. Yeah. Because to start about that.

Yeah, it's like, I can count on one hand the number of memes I've seen whereby an online argument ended with someone going, well, in that case, I've changed my opinion. Yeah. Do you get treated as a spokesperson? Less. I think as well, like I'm not very good at the rise. to that occasion. I think I remember about 10 years ago I was getting asked all the time to do things

like question time, blah, blah, blah. And I think I'd had like a backdrop of so much like abuse online that I was just like, I can't do this, I don't want to be like, I spoke to as soon for this. I don't know what it is. I want to be like I'm, I want to just protect myself a bit. So I don't as much. I used to get treated like the moral police, which is very funny.

Like people would just be like, oh God, I'm sorry. I have to tell you I've done this. And I'd be like, who do I am? I'm not, you feel bad, I'm not a judge, I'm busy, you know. And my friend gets that a lot. She'll get people coming up to me and I thought this, is this bad? Yeah. She's like, why he comes to me?

Yeah, I've known this, someone described me as working in climate and I was like, oh no, no, I don't, I don't work in climate, I don't work in life. But I know I kind of do because people have started apologising to me when they recycle things back in France. Yeah, yeah. And people do do you do that? They like, do you think I'm the moral police? And I want to be like, babe, I can't be the moral police.

But it seems are quite good. Yeah, I mean, I don't mind. it's very flattering people thinking stuff and asking me to talk about stuff but I also think it's embarrassing you should get X-1 and Z person to do it. Are you happy? Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's like I'm living life so it's everything in it. It's like yeah, I think I'm somebody who has I do have a capacity for joy and I think I'm the whole very happy but I also think I feel emotions very, very deeply all the time.

And so like I quite often have really, really deep sadness and melancholy and shit like that. And like I sometimes get depressed. I've been like this year, there's been times that I've been absolutely exhausting and I felt quite low and like sometimes I do feel quite depressed about things and but on the whole like, yeah,

I forget enjoy life. So that was Josie. Thank you so much to her for coming on the show. Now is the time of monsters. It's currently on tour through to December 2025 coming to Leicester, York, Newcastle, Glasgow and Kenne. all your information at josie long.com or on instagram at josie long and the extras 15 minutes we've got we've got this is quite fun the extras for this because i basically very um

what's the word very sort of deliberately that's not the word very ostensibly visibly as a fun exercise i basically say hey josie i've got a specific problem what's your advice with this writing problem i've got and that's really fun we'll talk about the emotional architecture of an edinburgh we'll talk about letting yourself be genuinely vulnerable on stage, if that's something you struggle with. There's good gear in there for you. And we will dig further into Josie's process for building an hour with all manner of hand-transcribed sets and cue cards and recycling abandoned bits and things like that. So loads of great stuff that's on video as well and completely ad-free if you join the Insiders Club on Patreon, which is patreon.com.com.

You can see me live, all your details are Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy. All my publicly available stuff is on there. And look, I can't, it's hard now because I'm going to tell you about what producer Callum's been up to. But obviously he'll be editing this and listening to it. And I don't want him to get an overinflated sense of his own importance, his own importance. But Instagram and TikTok at ComcomPod and YouTube, just search for Comcompod. And there is so much stuff on there now. He's really genuinely doing a brilliant job. And I'm very pleased with the plucky little champ. So well done, slightly less evil producer Callum. I'll post ambler at you shortly, but it won't be long because I've got a meeting in seven minutes. So I'm going to expend one of those minutes

thanking our insider producers, Spiller, Dave Powell, Simmons, Alan Lucas, McClellan, Swarbrick, McCarroll, Swaddle, Wormel and Burry. And a big thank you to our special insider executive producers, Neil Extraplucky Peters and Andrew Bluckard Dennant. And also to the Super Secret one or two. Thank you, everybody. That was like Conan. That's our show. That was our show. Thank you to Joseph for coming on. Plucky producer Callum for producing it. And also Susie Lewis for the logging, Rob's Mountain for the music. And I felt there was something else to say. I'll post Amble at you in just a moment. There are now only five minutes left. So it'll be brief and punchy. Bye for now. So if you are on the Insiders Club list, if you're in the Insiders Club, if you're on the Insiders Club, you're doing it wrong. But if you're in it, you will have access very soon, if not already, to the November's June A in which I talk in a bit more depth about this episode with Josie.

And specifically, also, I try very hard not to tell you about how well my EMDR therapy is going, but clearly ignore my own instructions and start telling you about it in more detail than I've been. planned. But it's all stuff I can stand behind. Is that a phrase to stand behind something? Yeah. And basically, the upshot of that is, I'm super happy, I'm super busy. And the last two days, my wife has been not working from home, but working not from home. So he's not been here. So with her not being here, there's this different vibe in the house whereby I'm getting more done. Just because of this psychological impact of being alone in the house, when she's here, she's constantly working. I'm constantly working. It's not like we have long leisurely lunches or any of the

brilliant things that a married couple both working from home could do and should get better at doing frankly. Now I mention it. But, and when I say could get better, it's me that I'm levelling that criticism at because I sequester myself in the cellar in which I have just now, well, last night, but I'm looking at it now, there's a new duct from a hole in the wall that I made myself with a cold chisel. God, that was fun. But there's more on that as well. I don't want to tread on the toes of the stew and a here, but I do go into detail about some of the mental freedom the EMDR therapy has afforded me, which I've chosen to use on, mostly on DIY. I'm very happy about it, I am too. But when my wife is not here, it really makes a difference

to the kind of mental framework within which I'm operating. I'm like, oh, I'm like putting your shoes on. You know, you put your shoes on when you're working from home. If you put your shoes on, you turn into a shoe guy. You're like, oh, okay, I could leave the house at any minute. I could run for a bus if I had to. I am working. I'm not going to laser around.

I'm going to get shit done. And similarly, when you're on your own and wearing shoes, oh my God, I'm a lonely shoe guy and there's nothing to do but work. And I tell you what, and this is the final minute now, I'll tell you what, I've got a fun meeting. I will tell you about it afterwards. It's not, it's not when a performer says a meeting. They normally mean with Warner Brothers or something. And it's not that. It's a sort of side hustle meeting. But it's fun. But I won't spoil it by telling you about it in advance. The, what was I going to say? The final thing. Oh, it's gone. Oh, it's gone. I felt it was going to be good. But, well, that's the timer. We'll never know. You'll just need to imagine what it was. unless you hear me shout it in the next couple of seconds. I don't think I can. Please do wear sunscreen.

All right, he said on the 25th of November. And start doing maths. Oh my God. I'm helping the boy with his maths homework. As a result, I've had to relearn how to do maths. I've literally been, I've got a piece of paper here whereby I've been converting fractions to decimals and vice versa. I've been, oh my God, the borrowing chain.

When the borrowing chain hits zeros on long division, my God. And what's the other? Multiplying fractions by decimals, turning things into improper fractions. It's like I've got a new hobby. I really resisted doing this, but I've just felt like, in order to help him, is he struggling a bit? In order to help him, I've got to know what I'm doing. Otherwise, I'm just telling him what the answer is rather than teaching him.

So now I'm over the hump now. I've watched nearly an hour of YouTube videos on fractions last night. If you've got any resources, it's Stuart at ConvenienceComedion.com. Resources or games. There's a game called Times Table Rockstars, which is smashed to pieces. But I want a fractions version, but I don't have an iPhone, so I can't use, oh, no fractions. So if you've got some suggestions, send them along. Goodbye.

And please, like all the best integers, try to remain whole. Bye for now. Okay, now he's out of the room. I can tell you the real secrets of comedy. Secret number one, you've got to be controversial. Secret number two, you've got to be edging. Thank you. You've got to be edging.

You've got to... The reason comedy exists is to bring down sacred character. Oh! He doesn't... No, you're not going to bring down sacred. comedians are philosopher pranksters the best

the best and what we exist we exist to challenge what else do they they will say stuff like that don't they and I'm here I'm not here to make friends I'm here

to I and so everyone I know I always think when people do that it's like no your point of view is being a