The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - Rose Matafeo (2018): ComCompendium

Episode Date: May 22, 2026

This week we’re delving into the archives and going back to episode 259 in 2018 with that year's Edinburgh Comedy Award winner, Rose Matafeo! We discuss:how she ensured her hilarious material about female sexuality in Horndog brought the whole room along with ithow she's actively mining for hot takesand why she has a quintuple-threat approach to performanceJoin the Insiders Club at patreon.com/comcompod where you can instantly get access to the full back catalogue of extras, including 20 minutes with Rose!👉 Sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok.Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod:✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ Exclusive extra content you can't find anywhere else✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including weekly-ish Stu&AsCatch Up with Rose: You can see Rose Matafeo working up some new material in Edinburgh this summer, find out more through the link in the show notes.Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE - find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy. Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.Get in touch: If you’re listening and thinking ‘I’d love to work with ComComPod on getting something out there’ or ‘there’s someone you should absolutely have on’ - drop us an email at [e-mail]! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to the show. This week we are delving back into the archives and going back to episode 259 in 2018. Who can remember that that long? With that year's Edinburgh Comedy Award winner, Rose Matafayo, someone who went on to be that year's Edinburgh Comedy Award winner. Rose and I will discuss how she in short this and this, remember, this is Rose before she went absolutely gangbusters profile-wise. So really interesting to listen back and hear where she was at the time. We'll talk about how she ensured her material about female sexuality in that year's show Horn Dog brought the whole room along with it. We talk about how she's actively mining for hot takes. God, this takes me back. And why she has a quintuple threat approach to performance. And let's not forget, that all worked out, didn't it? So from all the way back in 2018, here is Rose Matafayo. How's the show going?

The show is going fine Yeah It's really fun It's a show that like Obviously I did it in Melbourne and New Zealand But I always go to Melbourne with What is definitely a work in progress Like I do one preview of what

It's going to be before I go to Melbourne And then Melbourne is sort of this hellish month Of rewriting every day So you have no fun in Melbourne You just work I really It's so hard because Melbourne is such an amazing place and all my friends are there and I get to do improv at the same time,

you know, now the show. But that, no, it is hell. Like I, I, it's, it's, it's so hard. But, um, it's ultimately worth it because it means down the line, like now I am far less stressed, I think, about, uh, the, like the show. I think just, it's just, it takes so long to, I think, figure out what a show is about. So when you start months early, you get to go through all of that process of going, oh yeah, it's not about what I actually set out to write a show about. Yes, you get to already have worked that out by the time you write your press release. That would be convenient, wouldn't it? Exactly.

And it's, and it's, so it is, it is an amazing, because I think there's no better way of working a show than having to do it every day for a month, basically, like we do a Melbourne. But it is just a horribly stressful process because I think it's, for me, it's not only just like trying to rewrite stuff, but knowing what to cut and restructuring stuff, which really takes time for me to relearn. And so just every day was just, every day is just like I was talking to my friend guy, another guy Montgomery, who's another performer. Friend of the show.

Friend of the show. And yeah, I think there are people who see, I think, every opportunity to perform as like another time to like redeem yourself. But for me, I always see it as an opportunity to fail. He sees it as an opportunity to redeem himself Well I know he didn't see it Obviously he said that like he was like trying to pump me up He was like just you know

Hear that crowd they're all coming in for you You know and you feel like you know They're all here you feel like the shit And for me are my panickers Oh God these people have paid to see me And what the what they're about to see is horrific And and every day is like Oh my God why can fuck this up in the show

Or this up The audience is half hateful Yeah Okay gotcha I just expect the worst of everyone, basically. But no, in answer to your question, if French is going fine so far. It's going, I think it's going great, right?

The night I saw your show, which was maybe Thursday or Friday last week, we nearly stood up. We nearly stood up. There was a frisson of like, are we standing up? No, we're too cool to stand up. You get cool people at your audience.

I nearly stood up. It was fantastic. And it seemed, like I said, saw your show, I don't know if it was the previous year or the one before. Was that your third one here in the second? I saw finally dead. Yes, you did the funeral show. Last year? Two years ago. Two years ago. And I remember thinking seeing that show

that you are like a quintuple threat. Like you've thrown every, you know, I think is it in the West End in acting, they're like, oh you've got to be a triple threat. You're dancing and playing an instrument. And I was like, I don't know if you're playing an instrument, but you're dancing, singing, you're doing impressions, you've got visual stuff, you've got prop jokes, you've got one-liners, you've got big stories,

You've got like, I felt like, holy fuck, you're machine gunning us with, I don't know, I don't, I don't mean to suggest that there's any desperation in that. It just felt like you're going, I've got an hour, I can do anything. I'm going to do everything. Yeah, I mean, I just think, well, I don't know. I think for me, I always just, I think about the shows I like, I love seeing. I will, because I'm obviously comedians start as comedy fans. And it's like, I think when you do start out, you always want to. do the kind of comedy that you would want to see, I think.

And not to say that I'm doing comedy that, you know, like, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is amazing stuff. But, but I just, it's so weird because it's so against my person. I'm not a fun person, but weirdly my shows. I'm like, I like the idea of people having fun or just having, I guess, variety to, to what they're watching. Because I know an hour is such a long ask, you know, and I just don't have the confidence to, I think it really is rooted in the actually not having the confidence to,

think, oh, I could talk, I could just tell stories for an hour or I could just do this for an hour. I have very much like confidence to commit to one thing. So I feel like I put in heaps of staff to distract from the fact that, you know, it's not, I'm not just one. Yeah, I'm not just one thing. Like, I think it's, I even find it hard to say that I do stand up because I'm like, oh, I fucking do stupid impressions and, you know, sound things and dances. And so it's, yeah, it all comes, I think it comes from a place of not being confident.

and no way style, I suppose. I did wonder whether this year's show, it seemed to me that this year's show was kind of more mature than the one I saw a couple of years ago, which is not only that would make sense chronologically, but you are also in your 20s? Yeah.

I guess are you? I'm 26 now. Okay. So I was 24, no, 24 when I first did the, no, 23, originally did a double bill. But no, yeah, no, and even more so than last year as well, I think. The only reason I bring up, I just want to sort of caveat,

well, just to bring up your age, I suppose in your 20s, a year is a much longer time. You know, the rate at which you are developing is far greater. Expendential.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it is a weird thing as well because, like, no, it is. And it seems so angsty, like, oh my God, you go through so much stuff in your 20s, but it's true.

You know, it's true. It's like, it's a weird thing because also, when you're also self-aware of the fact that people tell you And also when you do comedy and you hang out with a lot of people who are older than you, naturally, I think when you start out young, you are constantly surrounded by people who are older than you who tell you, oh, yeah, this is what your 20s will be like. Or this is what you're, oh, you'll love it when you get to 30. And like, so you're constantly kind of, you know, told how you're going to feel at certain points, especially when you're doing comedy through your 20s.

And so it is funny tracking that and seeing that like also just with the doing shows, like I think, I think, I think. it's doing it the year on as well I think it's so much easier to track how you're changing I think as a comedian and you can really notice

it by putting I guess your hour long shows if you're doing them back to back side by side and just seeing how how different they feel as well and like I mean I just did I was in Montreal

where I was doing material that I was probably from the last two shows that I did and honest to God is like time travelling doing material that you wrote to you even

Even just two years ago, it's like being, you're just a fundamentally different person on stage. And so you have to like slip into this persona that you've grown out of in a way. Because I'd say in the last three or four years, I've changed. I'm not changed, but like just, just, I think I've, it's that weird bit where you figure out, oh, that's what the audience sees. And that's what, that's, because you never know, you're never aware of what you, I guess you describe as your style. and then I guess it kind of becomes a bit more clear where it's like oh oh I get it

oh that's what people are finding funny because like for so many years I'm like I don't know why people are finding this funny that's great the idea of who the audience sees let's just stick with that for a moment who do you think they see now and who was it that you thought they saw before what were you offering before in an attempt to

to find that richest scene I think that because I started so young that, genuinely quite young, that I had no, like my material was, was, had to be very broadly observational, but like kind of, I guess, it was never rooted in any life experience because obviously I was like a teenager, so I had no life experience whatsoever. And it would just be embarrassing to see,

I've seen a teenager, like braces me like, it was like being a teen guy? But it's, um, it's so, so I think it's, um, I used to have a really nervous energy to deal, with that on stage. So it was very like self-deprecating, nervous, kind of like, awkward on stage. And then that kind of developed to something that was like, I don't know, what happened in recent years is that I think to combat nerves, because I get really nervous, I don't,

I get really nervous still performing. I don't feel like, I'm not a person who like, it's like, I feel loud on stage. I'm always, it's always a terrifying thing. So I think I combat that with, um, being more hyperactive than I ever am in real life. Like, I'm not, uh, an energetic high energy person in real life. And that's what people, I think, mostly my friends and family find bizarre is that on stage. That we walk in and you're playing table tennis. 100%.

100%. I feel like this, like, like, just absolutely wild like on stage. and I talk really fast and I scream basically and I'm so really loud and I'm not that kind of person in real life. And I think that's to deal with, you know, I feel like getting nervous. But I think people see that and get the wrong idea of what kind of person I am. And I get a lot of people who I get this real thing and I think a lot of girls do it is what I get it. I think when they do comedy of the thing of like, oh, my God, we should be best friends.

I was wondering about, you know, yeah. Your show last year was called Sassy Best Friend. Yeah, yeah, okay. So many girls be like, no, we are, no, like, we are totally, like, we would be best friends in real life. And I, it's so hard to explain. I'm like, I have hardly any best friends in real life. You know, like, I'm a very bad friend in real life, but I am friendly to audiences and to people who come to my shows. And it's a, it's a funny, it's a really funny, it's a really weird thing to be.

you've got to say that you it is not possible to be best friends with stage rose matter because she only exists for that hour and you can't talk to her totally completely yeah and it's like and i and i love getting to talk to people and before the shows and all of that stuff and i think but it's so hard to figure out what your personality is off stage and like on stage and if there is if there is any crossover there and i think in that aspect i don't think i am naturally a person who like uh i guess is as friendly as that in real life. But I don't know.

It's an awkward thing when... I just think, though, I think that is something that's imposed on. I think sometimes women doing comedy because I think when, especially if women is doing stand-up that is very relatable or observational a way that's very specific and I get that a lot of my material is very relatable all the time. But it's funny because everyone's material is like stand-up is you're trying to relate to an audience. It's the whole thing

what you're trying to do, mostly anyway. But I just find that it's so funny the distinction when I guess women do

relatable material, it morphs into this is a friendship, this is a relationship, is that kind of not an entitlement but like an

assumption that that performer would be friends with you as well and I think, I don't know, do you ever get anyone saying,

Stu, we'd be best for, oh my God, we think the same. Men don't talk to each other like that. In my experience anyway, in my experience. But I do get,

I feel like probably the tones I play, I do think people think that they'd get on with me. And reviews, when I used to read them, would refer to me as like, you can totally imagine him being your mate down the pub. Oh, that's the boy one. That's the boy one. Yeah, you're mate down the pub,

down the pub, not holding hands. We're not, nothing weird about it. You mate down the pub in a safe environment where blokes won't express feelings. Sure, you'd be as a barbecue with this brother? Yeah, that's so funny. That's the male equivalent of her. I want to be a best friend.

Yeah. Isn't that funny? Here's a thing I think about your current show, Horn Dog, some of which is about, not to give too much away, but some of which is about sexuality and lust, I suppose, horniness, that kind of thing. Something I really noticed happening was men and women laughing at the way you had made a female experience of. sexuality completely relatable to everyone in the room.

That's sweet. Is that satisfying? Do you recognise that? That's really satisfying. You must see that in people's reactions. There are some people who can talk about kind of female sexuality in a way that gets the women on side such that in an audience, I'm kind of like, I'm really noticing that the women are on side in a finally someone saying something for us, totally valid.

I noticed in your show that it was almost like post that kind of thing. because the environment was such that men and women were like, yeah, great, you know, you know, menstruation. And the guys, I'm on board. I'm on board with that aspect on it. You made me get what that must be like. That's so funny. That's so nice to say because, I mean, because that's exactly,

I think, a progression, a real clear progression from what I did last year with my show, because last year's show was a lot, it was all about basically personality and when the kind of discovering your personality as like a young teen into your early 20s. and feeling very confused about that stuff and how that intersected with my birth control pill

and having gone off it and how that can really affect, you know, when you're on the pill, something that's hormonally just changing you fundamentally in your body, how that messes with your idea of what your own personality is. And you're like, who am I in my early 20s if I'm taking a hormonal pill every day?

And it was a very, very, that's a fucking good point. I'm sorry I didn't see that show. That's fascinating. It's, it's, you know, it was really, it was like a really interesting time because I went off it. And so, you know, at the end I talk about, you know, I just, I just try and articulate how it feels to be on that. Like, one of my, one of the examples, and I always like, this joke is not working. But then people, I think someone at the other day was like, that's exactly how it feels. It's like, it's like trying, it's like getting into, um, being on the pill is like getting into an Uber and you're on your way home.

And the driver starts saying a slightly different way home. to where you usually go and you're like, that's kind of weird, but I'll trust them. And then they start going in the opposite direction to where you actually live. And you're like, sorry, I actually live in the other direction. And then the driver turns around,

and it's you. And it's you like, what the fuck is going on? Because it's your own body fucking you over. And then like, and so many girls came up to me after that show being like, that this is exactly my, either this is exactly my experience or more regrettably so, I'm going off the pill tomorrow. And I was like, no, don't do it.

I probably lead to so many unwanted pregnancies. festival this is the worst time but the best thing one of the best ones was a guy who totally like oh he was toasted as well he was this tall irish guy who came with his girlfriend and he was like i didn't fucking know that's what the pill did to you oh my god i got to get my girlfriend off the pill as soon as i can and it was so sweet but i think that show was specific was really i think resonated with a lot of women in terms of their experience with the pill and that whole kind of aspect but then i think this show i think that that's what i was lost i think i lost a lot of guys in that, and specifically talking about birth control, all of that stuff.

I think there were some guys who'd come and totally enjoy it completely. But I think I really just got a lot more women in the crowds when I had a show called Sassy Best Friend. My poster was pink, you know. And that was very much actually intentional. And in Melbourne, it saved me, I think, from crowds that would not enjoy it. And it was, I didn't realize that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But a stagged do is not going to come to a show called Sassy Best Friend. Sure thing. You know, and actually... That is a sweet little filter you've worked out there. It was really good filter because then I would just have crowds of women and you're like, oh, this is the dream. Like, performing to a crowd which is more women than men is quite incredible. But that's exactly what I was like, you know, this year I'm really, I'm happy to find that kind of middle ground and that, not only a, you know, not only a, not only a, not only a, not. say that men were never, you know, open to, like, hearing that kind of comedy, but I think

it's, it's, it's, they're much more, um, I don't know, I think, I like the idea. I think there was always that horrible thing that, like, people were assumed that, like, you know, when men and women go to comedy shows, you know, it's like, especially if you're going on a date or something, it's like, one of them's dragged them to it, you know what I mean? And, like, women only laugh, women don't like, remember that weird myth? Women don't laugh at, like, it was like a fucking urban legend. Women don't laugh at other women because they feel threat. by women when they make their boyfriends laugh. And it's like, who ever said that?

And it's like, it kills me because it's so not true because I always, that's the thing, I always see women in groups laughing. And I very rarely see men in groups laughing. You know what I mean? Like, and I think, especially at a place like the fringe, like they're the best crowds because they just get behind stuff all the time. But I'm glad men are enjoying it as well.

I mean, you know, it's not for them, but you know. I have rendered for them, but yeah, I'm glad they can enjoy it as well. So you mentioned the clique, the cohort of the snort team in New Zealand. Yeah. Do you, have you fallen into a similar but different? Is there any kind of clique that you're a part of? Is there a scene that you're a part of in the UK? Not particularly, no.

I mean, I only through that, like, when I came here, I was lucky enough to, I had a very rare kind of experience in that when I moved here I knew so many people on the scene because they were the ones who were brought out to New Zealand to do the New Zealand Comedy Festival so I already had such an amazing I guess I'm not like in but like you know I was friends with so many people who then I came to England and was like oh yeah they're actually more famous than I thought that like everything doing better than I thought okay oh yeah

Yeah, there's tons of people like that. I mean, even like Josie and David and stuff. Like I met when I was 16. I've known them since I was sick, like 16. And then like realizing, oh, they're like legit. Like, oh, yeah, they're very popular and amazing and successful when you come to the UK. But I think I just maybe naturally found myself. I mean, you as well, because I mean, we met in New Zealand and people like niche and people like, you know, it was just a, I mean, I moved here and moved in with Nish.

So it was some. Actually, yeah, I were playing. You actually replaced me. I replaced you. Maybe it was you that egged Richard Herring. Hey. The dates don't add up. Did someone egg Richard Herring?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll go to that at the other time. He accused me and Nick because I'll have those houses back onto each other. They do. They do. I always tried to see Richard Herring, but I never saw him. I was like, which else is his? Yeah.

But obviously that meant that I was kind of, yeah, already part of a group of, you know, stand-ups here. And to what extent are you following any kind of a plan? Like I know that one of the things, a Kiwi comic, one of the rights of passage is go to the UK, gig every night, three times a night in London for four years, then go back and get famous. That's like, you know, that's a kind of, that's a route. Yeah, well, I think, no, it's so hard because I feel like I have like plans, but my plans are like weird, like, I'm like, well, you know, we've got to get to the Oscars by 2050. Or something like that, you know, like, it's something like weird like that.

I have no, I often don't have year to year plans because I often just structure my years around doing these festivals, you know? It's like Edinburgh as a goal and, you know, doing another show in Melbourne as a goal or, you know, being able to, but I'm never like, oh, I'm going to get my own TV show. I'm going to do this. I think when I first moved here, I was a bit like, when I first moved to the UK, I was very, I felt a very like, what the fuck am I doing? I've moved, I've left a job in New Zealand where I was earning money doing comedy on television. Very, very stable, you know, income. I've moved here, spent all my savings to just go, okay, well, I'm just going to live here for a year, live off savings, see if I can do enough gigs. But then that's the thing of me.

I'm like, I'm not the kind of comedian who's like, I want to get up every night, you know, I can only do comedy every night and do my stuff. I just don't even like gigging. I really don't. I'm not like braving gigging. Like I don't, I am very much a person who would rather, you know, make something perfect and do a gig and do it perfectly rather than I never can work stuff out on stage. I'm not like a person like that. I don't because I hate failing and I hate doing bad. So and I think the negative like the downsides.

The amount of like that it kills me to fail on stage outweighs being able to work through it. I think I'm really hard on myself. Not a clown then. Yeah, no, not a clown at all. I'm hard on myself to the point of just like, it's getting ridiculous. I'm becoming aware of how ridiculous it is getting and that it's hindering me from getting better sometimes.

Can you give me a more concrete example of that for the people listening who are also battering themselves? Yeah, just like, I mean, I could tell you every single thing I fucked up yesterday in my show, you know? I could, and part of me, What's the problem with stand-up is that because it is a completely solitary, oftentimes solitary thing, you know, you're constantly having to improve by being incredibly critical of yourself and sometimes being able to step outside yourself and going, that shit, that doesn't work. But when you're doing that, it's not like, it's not a relationship of a director and a performer, it's yourself saying, yeah, that was shit. You did shit there.

And you're being like, don't say that to me. It's it. And you're like, no, no, no, this is how you're going to get better. And it's such a horrible line to kind of, it's such a horrible thing to negotiate of being kind to yourself enough to have the confidence to get on stage and do comedy. But also better yourself by expecting more of yourself as a performer. And really can get muddy, I think, because they're obviously completely lent. But it's, yeah, I think if the balance kind of gets out of, you know, if it gets out of, you know,

If it gets out of balance, it can be really just shit on your, you know, on just your mental health. And I know that it's that funny thing of when you rationalise it as when you perform and you're like, I'm only performing for an hour a day. Like, why am I so tired? Why do I feel like shit? Why am I so unhappy? And it's like, it's so hard to quantify how much it takes up of your energy and your time and your brain throughout the rest of your day. I guess when you do it.

So it's, yeah, but I don't even know. originally talking about. What were we talking about? Oh yes, a plan, plan. My plan was to do stand up for a year, live off savings. I was really lucky enough to like find management who,

just the best, like, you know, the best and really supportive of me staying in the UK and was really invested in keeping me here. What I found is that as soon as I, things started going well in England, the way more opportunities came up in New Zealand.

Oh, okay. You know, there's that weird thing, though, I think about New Zealand is, like, there's this cultural cringe around comedy in New Zealand where people just don't, they just almost like, the general public just like almost hate comedians for the very fact that they think they can do comedy. Yeah. It's horrible, horribly shit thing. It's not a cool thing.

I think it's a really. Yeah, I talked to Diane Hanwood about this, about how, that he in particular was sort of known as being like the loose Kiwi comic. Yeah. And the amount of liberties that people. take with his personal space and with his personal freedom just when he's in the street. Diane was a very famous comic in New Zealand, yeah. And people, there is that kind of that tall poppy thing.

People see you as a success. They want to cut you down. Completely. And there's no love for, I mean, I even, I know that it's something that, you know, is really being passed down from our culture, I guess, of British culture of that being quite modest or being, you know, not being quite self-effacing or whatever. Yeah, it's like you're not being modest enough. Yeah, exactly.

But I think it's morphed into something different quite more like, like aggressive in New Zealand? Because I think still here, you've got comedy fans and you've got pride in British comedy a lot of times. You know, and I think you've got a lot of pride in that and a lot of genuine people and who aren't ashamed or, you know, embarrassed to say that they're fans of British comedy. And then in New Zealand you have this really horrible kind of freaking colonial hangover thing of like, oh, I love British comedy, not New Zealand comedy.

You know, this really doing yourself down kind of attitude. and do you get so much, oh my God, never read comments on an article about you doing comments. You see how it is a mind fuck. It is just every form of like horribly, deeply entrenched kind of like,

you know, self, self kind of deprecation that you can, you can find. So I found, you're actually just because there's no one here to see this, you're having a kind of a physical reaction. That sounds fucking horrible when you're young. Oh.

artistically vulnerable, no matter what age you are, but presumably worse when you're young and you're on TV since your early 20s. Oh, yeah, I did, and I did music television when I was in my early 20s where I, there was a mechanism, it was a live television show, but all of the comments came through live where we had to moderate them on, on air. So I have, since the age of 19, had to read and feel every type of comment of like about you and how you're not funny and how you're, and it's, it's just so bizarre, like, because New Zealand's so small. it's like, it's just... Your shit, and I went to school with you.

Exactly, probably that. But what I think the physical reaction is that, like, it just infuriates me. It fucks me off so much because it's the exact, it's like the flight of the concord's example. It's like they had to go overseas and achieve amazing international success, doing the exact same thing that we're doing in New Zealand

at Pulp Comedy Days. They've been doing it for years. But as soon as it was validated by, oh, the higher ups, in some other country in America or England, New Zealand are like, oh yeah, no, we love you now. And it's just that lack of confidence in just genuinely supporting. And it's just so specific to comedy as well, as, you know, as a performance, like a, as a, not in a heart form, but I guess just, you know, as a thing that it guts me because I think, but per capita, New Zealand produces some of the most like amazingly original, wonderful comedy. and it's just kind of like not appreciated in the country.

And I just think it's such a horrible shit, toxic thing that we need to get over, I think, is a country, I suppose. Does the experience of being 19 and fielding negative comments online live as part of a show where you're trying to be funny? Yeah. Is there anything good about that? Is there anything that it teaches you? Is there anything that trains you?

Is it like, you know, you think of Thai kickboxes, they kick a tree until their shins are bleeding and then their shins are invulnerable. Is there anything good about it? Or is it just fucking horrible? It's fucking horrible. But also, it is like, it does teach you that like, not only that, like, so, you know, it's the same with reviews.

You know, like, you can say, like, don't re-reviews, you know, because reviews are shit and people, and don't read comments about you because people are mean and stuff. And obviously also that whole thing of like, you don't know what's going on the other side of that comment. And these people are truly oftentimes quite pathetic. That's what I learned definitely doing it when I was younger. But I think more so what I learned and what I can apply to comedy is that not everyone has to like.

Like, it's a horrible thing because comedy is kind of, you know, very transparently. You just going on stage being like, please like what I'm doing right now. I would just want you to like me. I mean, maybe that's just me personally in my style. I don't think it's just you, but I think there are people. who don't do that. Totally. I think you're one of the people

who at the moment is like that. Although who do you think don't do that? Because even if someone comes out and is an unlikable stage persona or is saying, you know, being outspoken or telling it like it is, ultimately, I don't think, I think the very medium

of standing up on a stage and saying and talking at people that you want people to validate something in a way that you're like, I want you to like me, I want you to like what I'm saying. So where do you, in terms though, of your persona on stage, given that this show has some very deft and very specific bells and whistles,

but it's a lot of good chunks of good stand-up, which are, there we go. This isn't you going, hip it, whatever, whatever, you know, I've got to do everything. Do you see that continuing? Do you imagine that, who do you imagine you will be in five years' time, in ten years' time? I know it's an impossible question, but like, what are you drawn towards? aspect of yourself, are you drawn towards pursuing? Well, that's a funny thing you're saying. God, that was a pretentious question. No, no, no, was it?

I mean, I, am I pretentious for not thinking it's pretentious? That's the thing I've been really, I think, most insecure about this show because obviously every show you do, you want it to be better, but obviously it has to be different as well, and then you have to take risks in certain ways to change it, and

so that means maybe, you know, getting rid of stuff the year before or trying something new. And I think this year I've been incredibly insecure in the fact that I think I was so stoked because people seem to like the show last year. But this year, I feel like I've got way more. I think I've personally become a better, just joke writer for myself. Like I've got better at writing material for myself.

And I'm happier with the material in that I'm like, oh, I feel like this, I'm getting better at writing material. But that means there's a lot less kind of bells and whistle stuff. There's actually a lot less than last year. last year had lots more, you know, sound elements and, you know, impressions and stupid shit that were like, I think in a show, like exciting and stuff. And this one's kind of got more, you know, pat more more material, but with more of a throughline as well. And I think what I'm finding is I'm really happy because I think doing the show here, I'm just more confident in doing the show and having fun on stage and doing material, which I can, I guess, stand. And for me, actually purely from a, from a, I guess, maybe selfish point of view, and you might feel this as well.

When you're doing an Edinburgh Fringe show, you're writing it for the Fringe and you're writing it for a particular context, obviously. But the show, I'm like, oh, there is so much more material in this I can take out for what I do in the rest of the year, which are 15-minute spots or you do club goods or you do TVs. And there's so much more material that can be standalone. And I'm like, that's really helpful for me. Was that a decision or discovery? It was a discovery, I think, because I think I was just like, maybe because last year I was like, fuck, some of these things were quite bitsy and quite hard to do in isolation. So I think in this one, I feel like I've got certain routines where I'm like, oh, I can do that. And it's the first time I've ever done that because I write very, very short jokes, I feel.

And the more I do it, the longer they kind of get because the more confident I feel and, you know, extrapolating them. but I think I want to continue down that route of just like, I don't know, as I get older, I think my persona is getting more confident and saying things on stage and like with, not authority, but like just feeling like people should listen. I feel like I feel. That's authority. Yeah, authority. Oh shit.

The psychopath. But you know, like that thing of like, I think often on stage, sometimes you'll be like talking. You'll be midway through a joke and you're like, why the fuck are these people listening to what I don't know anything. I don't know anything, but I'm saying stuff that I'm trying to make observations that I'm just like making hot takes essentially. But I think being more confident in just what your point of view is and what your persona is, I think that's something that excites me because I think I guess that's, maybe that's

something bad. But it's just, I feel like in, yeah, in another five years, I think I'll just be a bit more confident with who I am on stage. but hopefully also just doing maybe something completely different, I think. Talk to me about hot takes. I think that's a really interesting asset of, a facet rather, of what you do. It's very relevant. It's part of an ongoing conversation.

Yeah. Do you think of, do you think there are bits in your show that are cooler takes? Do you know what I mean? That are like, well, this is, this is relatable but not relevant. Whereas this one, we're all talking about that right now. Well, that's the thing is like, that's a really interesting thing, though, I think, and I talk about it a lot with my friends about it, is that there is a real fine line between, sometimes, I guess, in stand-up, like, something that's relatable and of the moment, but then also it's quite zeitgeisty. So then you find things where people are doing material about stuff that is very, like, of the moment, but then you're like, oh, yeah, and did you make a joke about it? No, but because you're pushing these buttons and you're like, this, this, this, you're pressing these buttons and you're saying specific,

triggering words and stuff, it's like people react to it. And I mean, I think obviously, like, it's been such an interesting year for this year, I guess, with all of the Me Too stuff, I think, because it's, I think, for me, I'm like, I get it, I'm not annoyed, but I think everyone should be talking about it in and in their own way. And I think I find it so interesting to see everyone's take on it. I am sick of seeing more men do stuff about it than women. I think women should get first dibs on it.

That's what I, that's my opinion is that this friend women should get first dibs on any me too routine because, you know, come on. I don't want to, I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear too many more men complain about how hard it's been on them as a good guy. I see, I see, I see, I see. You know, I think, but if you can find something genuinely funny and I think it's funny, and I think it's funny. But it is, it's again, like that thing, that is a thing that's very of the moment. But if you can find that funny angle on it, it's very good.

But if you don't, then I guess it's just becoming more, it becomes more of like a TED talk rather than I suppose stand up. So that's why I'm very aware of like, I don't want to be, I don't, I would hate to be kind of like a cast as this like, you know, woke millennial stand up, you know, like talking about, talking about the issues. because I think, you know, you hope that your comedy has enough observational, timeless kind of quality to it that exists beyond, you know, the time you're doing it in, really. But maybe that's just a little wanky thing to say.

No, I think I agree with that. I was going to say, I mean, you are kind of a woke millennial talking about zygosty things. You are, you know, that's, you have a social, you have a social conscience, you are, you are relevant. You are a millennial. I try to subvert that a bit though in terms of I do. I have the worst take of it. You know,

like I'm saying I go really hard in Horndog about like how I have, I've got so many problems with like I'm, I'm a fucking flusy when it comes to dudes. Like, you know what I mean? Like I, I can say that I believe all this stuff and these all my principles as a person who's like a feminist and all this stuff. But then there's all the stuff that I do that contradicts that because I'm not, I'm just a,

a person who's just navigating through a very, like, interesting and kind of, it's sometimes hard world. But I think that's what I like seeing in other people is that you want to see someone who's like, I guess, vulnerable in that you don't know. Like, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the bit that makes it timeless, that's it out of just being a woke millennia. There are enough shows here which are people showing their credentials trying to press

the buttons. But you have a really, um, a really kind of personal and vivid and specific and honest take on. It's like, here's, you are sufficiently skilled as a comic to go, here's the material, here's the stuff we're all thinking, and here's what I'm thinking and how I relate to it and how that fits into the stuff we've established. And I think it's that stuff that feels, I mean, maybe it won't be,

maybe very little comedy is really timeless, even, you know, you want to go back and look at the greats from the last 20 or 30 years. you know there is still stuff where you're going to go oh yeah we were all reacting to mobile phones but it does have an archetypal quality to it where we go this is not simply someone saying we should all be like this

it's a personal reaction but isn't that funny I mean that's why I find really difficult and I think that's the thing I find it difficult when like people like you know go this is who I am I'm a feminist I'm a woke millennial benefit from that kind of you know rhetoric of like talking about those issues and then perhaps don't walk the walk in other ways.

And one problem I've had really recently is that I feel really a real responsibility. I think a lot of, you know, people who do stand up for a living have as well. As doing shows like, I'm doing a show and this is an interesting thing to talk about really briefly. It's like like I talk so much about sexuality and like female, you know, male and female, boys and girls and all of these very like very binary ways because... Yeah, right.

Yeah, and so I've kind of been trying to rewrite things to be more open to like to the fact that that is like, but this is the very difficult thing with comedy and something's really interesting to navigate and like it's actually quite an exciting thing to a challenge as well sometimes

is that you're making observation comedy. Comedy is about generalization so much at the time because you're trying to talk to a big group of people and relate to as many of them as you can in one second. So you make wild calls, you make hot takes, as I say, to get a point across. But when you try and bring in this idea, it's like, well, I'm not speaking to everyone here. And I'm using language specifically that is not inclusive. And so that's been like the, probably the most, the biggest, you know, thing for me, I'm like, if I'm, you know, if you're, if you feel you're a woke millennial talking about all this stuff, these issues, then also you got to try and at least,

you know, walk the walk and like, actually the way, and having the platform to do that, like, I guess specific examples of like trying to like, say, like, you know, not most people, or saying masculine or feminine or like, you know, I think just even wording, slightly wording, jokes slightly different, like, there's a stupid joke in my show of like, cunt is a word, for something that most a woman often have, but men have affected the art of actually being them. And it's like, it was the difference between saying weirdly like,

cunters a woman for something women have, or putting often in there, because not all women have that, or saying like, female sexuality is different to boy sexuality. It's more straightforward when you have a thing. And it's rather than saying, a boy has a dick and a girl doesn't.

And so it's all those ways where you're like, fuck, this is a hard new era to go into. Particularly given the requirements of word economy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, you're fighting against yourself to be inclusive at the expense of the sting of a joke. Completely. And I was talking to Eli Matheson about this, another comedian from New Zealand. And, you know, we're all trying to do that. But there was nothing more boring than hearing someone say, oh, and a white cis man.

Like there's nothing more boner killing, right? And it's like then to hear someone like, you know, say that. Exactly the word economy of that. Because then it brings in whole, it distracts from what you're actually trying to say. So it's, um. That is interesting. Very few people, like the cliched comedian thing. Men are like this.

Women are like this. Trans people, I can't speak to the experience of trans people. And it's like, yep, you can't. And is that a, I mean, that, does that put you in the position that a white man be in where he wants to talk about me too but doesn't want to be just another. Exactly. Exactly. And so I was thinking about that.

And also like, you know, it's like I'm also, I think it's just being aware of who you are on stage, where you're coming from and are you speaking from a personal, if you're speaking truthfully from your personal experience as being whatever you are, I think that is fine. And it's when you're, it's when you get into the, I guess, you know, observations or hot takey kind of stuff about other people where you kind of have to, I guess, think more about that. And I'm so aware that it's such a journey to be on trying to improve yourself in that regard. And I mean, it's even like, you know, calling shit.

It's those blind spots of like, especially doing comedy as a woman. It's like, you know, I think there's such a focus on supporting women and comedy and all this stuff. But then there's also, there's so many other facets to that. It's like that's often, often I see. lists in the festival, it's like these are the top women that you should see of this ever of, all of them white, all of them white.

And I think I was on one, I'm fucking half white, I'm basically fully white. And it's like, I think there are so many blind spots to that staff that, um, you know, that that kind of inclusivity stuff of, of it that, um, I think I just, I think it never, it never hurts to just be aware of it. And I think there can be real,

strong reactions to that stuff and I know especially in comedy but I think if your heart's in a good place and you're just trying I think there's nothing wrong with that I suppose I don't know it's just a but also it's that thing of like not jumping on people when they fuck up

that's what I don't like either it's like and I think comedians in comedy can do that you know when someone fucks up it's like fuck you how dare you but not give them the benefit of the doubt that they're like working through you know comedians jump on

another comedian you mean yeah I think so because comedians are bitchy right comedians are absolute bitches everyone loves each other but also like yeah I mean this festival's mad

for bitching not bitching for just people going a bit loopy I mean I do as well but it's just such a weird it's obviously when you put like this that many comedians in such a small city

doing shows in the same places everyone just goes a bit Like, what things do you want to learn to be a better comedian? Learn to be a better comedian. I think, I'd like to be more just confident in my ability to do it. Like, even when I go to write jokes sometimes, I've come up and I've been, I've written jokes, I've been a joke, like comedy writer for other people so much that sometimes I forget what I find funny, truly.

And I'll write a joke that I'll do because I know it will get. to laugh, but I don't find, I'm not one who's like, if I saw that, I wouldn't laugh at that, you know? And that makes me feel shit, because it makes me feel like I am losing any tiny bit of originality I feel like I have as a person, as a comedian. So I'd like to be able to write material that I feel like I could stand by. What's the secret of writing jokes for someone else? What's the secret?

Oh, God. I think just jokes, I mean, just learning joke structure is like, I see it as paint my numbers sometimes. You know what I mean? Depending on what it is. I find that in my own show as well. I'll find lines where I'm like, okay, well, for this to work, I just need to find two different things that are kind of similar but don't go together. And then just try and find every combination of that. And I think improv is a really amazing technique to have developed to be able to do that.

and to work a lot in writer's rooms with other people writing for other people you get so good at not being precious with ideas like I did a sketch show for three series in New Zealand and learning not to be precious with ideas is so it is such an improv thing and it's such a sketch writing thing and I think it's such a helpful thing of going nothing is so good that you know you shouldn't just cut it from the show if it's not getting a laugh and I think that's something that I really um I really have a very appreciated from what, you know, the work I've done is that like, it means that, you know, just being like ruthless of yourself being like, fuck you, this isn't working. Cut that shit.

But as a comedian, I think maybe I need to go the other way and kind of believe in, believe in some stuff more. And yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I still don't think I have a particular persona on stage. I think what I, I'd like to, I'd like to change my persona. to something maybe more true of myself. But I don't know. What risks would that involve? What's at stake that? I think what's at stake is a lot more silence on stage.

I talk with Rees Nicholson about this a lot because Rees is a person like me who started young. Our shows are dense, I think, really dense with, if there's not a punchline every like 20, 10 seconds even, we feel utter shame on stage because any moment of silence is like, is horrible on stage. And I think that's something that I would love to maybe get more confident

and is being able to sit in silence and believe that a room would go with me on that, you know? Yeah, sit on a stool. Sit on a stool and have no laughs for three minutes. We cope with it. I know. And then say something really good. But how do people do that, Mark?

I feel like I was listening to something. The French comedians do that a lot. You know, they tell a story and then they'll do a punchline and then everyone will be like, woo-hoo! But I just can't. I have no stories to tell and I don't have the confidence to tell them either. But yeah. Are you happy?

Am I happy? Am I happy? I'm actually, you know what? No joke. I am happy. Isn't that crazy? I'm happy. It's great. It's very good. I'm happy because I think I think I'm surrounded by people and performers who are like, excite me so much. And I'm just like excited to do stuff with really cool, creative, talented people.

And also, I just sometimes I'm like, I sit in my bedroom and, like, I live in London and I've got like a five year visa now to live in London. and I sit in my room with all my stuff and go like, and it's so cheesy, but just to sit there and go, this is amazing because this is like a room of stuff that I bought for myself. And I've never ever, I've only ever, you know, since I was 18 I've made, never,

never got money from anything else, like apart from doing comedy. And being just like cool and like stoked and proud to like have built, a weird life on the other side of the world purely by doing comedy and being like, that's fucking awesome. Like, how lucky am I to do that? And that's so weirdly positive

for a person who's such a miserable dick most of the time. But I think I've found myself just going, this is cool. I live in London. I'm 26. I'm so lucky I get to do comedy. It's going to fall apart in four years, but I'll enjoy this moment.

So I am happy. Thanks, Ray. I talk too much. I hate it. So that was Rose. You can see Rose working up some new material in Edinburgh this summer. You can find out more through the link in the show notes. And of course, there are 20 minutes of exclusive extras from the time with Rose. You can access those by joining the Insiders Club on Patreon at patreon.com.com.

And go to Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy to find out how to see me live at a bunch of places, including but not limited to. Where am I going to be? I'm going to be in Exeter, the Exeter Comedy Festival. That's on the 5th of June. Northampton Comedy Festival. Oh, the Comedy Crate All Day Festival.

On the 6th of June, Swindon's Old Town Comedy Festival, the 3rd of July. I'm in the Glitch Theatre in London with support from Cathy Boffman, who is not a comedian, but a climate speaker, but I'm helping her be funny.

That's got to be so great. On the 8th of July, I'm at Guildford Comedy Festival. On the 9th of July, I'm at Shrewsbury Comedy Festival, or Shrewsbury, if you're from the olden times. All of that at Stuartgoldsmith.com slash comedy. See you soon.