The Comedian's Comedian Podcast - Sophie Duker

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

Sophie Duker is a comedian, writer, improviser, and storyteller whose fearless, sharp, and subversive comedy has earned her sellout shows across the world, along with a nomination for Best Newcomer 2019 and a spot on Taskmaster! We discuss:why financial awareness is essential for new comedianshow visibility can be both empowering and exhaustingthe unique challenges Black women face in comedywhy staying bold matters even when people judgeand we find out if Sophie Duker is happy….📢 This episode is supported by Adam Bloom's Finding Your Comic Genius: An In-Depth Guide to the Art of Stand-Up Comedy, download on Audible today! Narrated by Matt Lucas, Ed Byrne, Ninia Benjamin and more - It explains the groundbreaking methods and theories that give you the tools to fast-track your stand-up to the next level and will permanently change the way you look at writing and performing comedy!Join the Insiders Club at patreon.com/comcompod where you can instantly WATCH the full episode and get access to 15 minutes of exclusive extras including:why resisting audience expectations can create richer comedyhow new material is a playground for experimentationand why expanding your persona on stage matters more than fitting in👉 Sign up to the NEW ComComPod Mailing List and follow the show on Instagram, YouTube & TikTok,Support our independently produced Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod✅ Instant access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ 15 minutes of exclusive extra content with Sophie✅ Early access to new episodes where possible✅ Exclusive membership offerings including a monthly “Stu&A”PLUS you’ll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Catch Up with Sophie: You can keep up-to-date with Sophie on Instagram, @sophiedukebox If you're heading to the Melbourne Comedy Festival in March/April, make sure to go and see The Sophie Duker Show!Everything I'm up to: Come and see me LIVE including at the Leicester Comedy Festival! Find out all the info and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy.Discover my comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to the show. I'm Stuart Goldsmith. Today I am talking to Sophie Duker, a comedian, writer, improviser, storyteller. Sell out shows across the world, of course, along with the nomination for Best Newcomer in 2019, and of course you will know her from Taskmaster. And in the first half of this episode, which crackles, I think, with the sort of, what do I say to her? I think I tell her that she's the most empowered comedian I think I've ever met. We're going to talk about how visibility can be part of that. It can be both empowering and exhausting. We'll talk about why Sophie taught herself to DJ in three days.

We'll find out about some of the unique challenges that black women face in comedy and will cover why staying bold matters so much even when people are judging you. This is a humdinger of an episode and a worthy 501 after last week's excellent, if I do say so myself. 500th birthday interview with Reggie Watts so if you haven't heard that one yet please jump in there has never been before we get to Sophie there's never been a better time to support

this independently produced podcast there's basically only me Callum and then Susie does the logs and that's it so for only £3 a month you can get access by supporting the pod to the full video and audio of every episode you get a very special 500th episode Stu and A not to mention the regular monthly ones

extra content with Sophie, I'll tell you more about that later and you just get to feel like a real good egg for listening to this show for 501 episodes or any part thereof and thinking to yourself, I must get round to contributing to it and joining the Patreon. Well, now is the time. Come on, 500 episodes, you bastard, why not jump on board? So find out more at patreon.com.com.com pod. Now, without further ado, here is Sophie Duker.

Welcome at last to the show. Sophie Duker. I've been trying to get you on for months, months and months. You're a busy person. Hey, I'm busy and I'm bad at scheduling. I'm a nightmare. I thought I was like so good at like responding to emails and keeping up with things. And then my life is just sort of disintegrated into like mush.

So I'm happy to be here. I think you're, um, uh, that's just reminded me of. something about your website, which is I think reflective of either your genuine personality or your brand or both, which is that your website, I think, does a good job of funneling the user into, are you fucking about or is this a serious thing? If it's a serious thing, talk to my people. Do you know me? Does that, is that fair? Oh my God. Yeah, I love that. I think, I mean, I'm not, it's not just like a big fun. to like sort out time wasters.

But I'm like, if you want to, if you want to book me, you will just email my agent. That is what you should do. Because I, I don't know where I am. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, yeah, so I think. Yes, but I don't think it's framed as, because I'm a disaster. It's framed as because this is a machine. And if you want to get on board the machine, you have to go through the proper channels.

And I don't know if that's something I'm bringing to it. I invite the listener to check out. Oh, wow. But I think of you as one of the most empowered comedians I've ever spoken to. Wow. This is such a read. I'm feeling, I don't know how I'm feeling about it. I don't know if I feel excited or uncomfortable.

What do you mean empowered? Well, I mean. Because you, you dress great all the time. Thank you. You poll dance. I know you don't do dress. but you're like totally, you have all these amazing queer cabaret shows. To look at your Instagram is to feel very small by comparison.

You know what you're getting at. You're vocal about politics. You, you know, boycotted festivals in the past because they're kind of, because of their sponsors. You feel like you have really dug your hands into what it means to be a comedian now. And you're doing it. and you're sort of exploding with life and positivity. I mean, well, of course, of course, you would, of course you would react like, oh what, me, no way, man.

No, I think. You're steely, right? Yeah, okay. I mean, that is very flattering. I think I'm just literally a black woman. Just a black woman. I'm just trying to be joyful. I'm just trying to, yeah, I think I think what I find really frustrating.

about myself and my career is that I guess okay but yeah this is again gross and disgusting but I guess that I'm trying to exist with some sort

oh my God this is embarrassing of like authenticity I'm trying to listen I'm asking a young internet person to be sincere and I realise it's hell for you it's horrible I don't also feel like an internet person

I just, like there are so many jobs that like I wish I could do or like not I wish I could do. I wish I could not think about doing them. And then I'm like, well, I can't, I obviously can't do that job. I obviously like that's obviously evil. I can't do that. So yeah, I think in terms of like the standing up for what I believe inside of it, I think it just, I doesn't feel that impressive because a lot of my friends are activists or people with real jobs or people. people who do like in different ways kind of try and change the world or improve policy or like

do stuff like that. And I'm like, I'm just telling jokes, but I can't really. Yeah, I find it very difficult to co-sign things when they're so obviously fucked. And then in terms of the pole dancing, I kind of pretend I, with most things I think, I kind of pretend that people don't know about them. Like I went to, um, this is in a podcast. So I know that it's probably in the public domain. I went to like a sort of a sexy party, like a kinky party, like post taskmaster. And

when you say post taskmaster, it sounds like the taskmaster after party. It was not the task model. I don't think there's, I think the Venn diagram of people who have been to that party and people who have been on taskmaster is one. It's me. But I went to this party and there was

lots of cool stuff that wasn't necessarily like straightforwardly sexy going around like are you familiar with Shibari? Yes I believe that's like a sort of Knots Japanese knots yes Yes it's Japanese knots people get into hard Oh sorry that was a very clean way of saying bondage

It's like rope bondage right? It's like rope bondage yeah And I'd never done it before And there was this like really cool girl like It's not like you're having a sexual encounter with them But they're like it's like people find it very meditative And release intention and stuff And I was like oh I definitely want to try this like rope bondage thing

but then I it's quite a long process because you're getting sort of bound and then you're going to get like tied up and stuff and I was just like I was just in the ropes and I was like looking and there like was a sort of small crowd that I'd like like I was just sort of congregated to watch me and I'm just like these people are just thinking there's that girl from taskmaster being like trust up and suspended from like uh but I was just I can't yeah I think like it's not as bad now And I've sort of accustomed to being someone who, like, is a little bit visible or has been slightly visible. But I think the way that I would deal with it when it first happened and, like, there was a first sort of, like, rush of attention would be to just sort of be completely in denial. So I wouldn't really change anything about my, like, lifestyle or what I was doing or where I was going. And I still do that because I'm like, what? People know I poll dance. Oh, sure. Okay. So have I sprung that on you in a sort of podcast for? for and mentioning the podcast, the pole dancing, because you don't consider it part of your,

the deliberate output. It's like a thing you do. Well, pole dancing is really hard. And I want to do it in a show. So I'm like, I am pole dancing. I am pole dancing in my life. But before I like professionalise it, I have to get really, really good. Because also people just give me so much shit for doing it on stage. So it's like, sure, sure, sure. I have to like be able to do it. it and then I have to be able to make it funny and I have to and it might just be something that I do at special shows or on tour but I'm kind of like trying to keep it just for myself until and maybe I'll never maybe I'll never want to do it in front of you know the classic comedy fans today but yeah I don't mind you mentioning it I have I have literally spoken about it in The Guardian

so okay yeah but I just I'm like no one this is just a chat between me and you this is how I feel about every single podcast interview, actual interview. Yes, no one will listen to this. It's totally fine. Yeah, don't worry. I missed that. I didn't take up bridge. No, but I'm like, I think podcast interviews are more real than I need, who does normal

interviews, like disgrace politicians? Like podcasts are where people actually get their news so much at the time and also get an insight into the people that they follow. So I can't imagine being asked to do an interview almost on any other medium unless I'd, unless I'd been cancelled. A pre-cancellation interview, just in case like a safety interview. But I'm like, hey guys, I pulled out, so I'm a good person. So, lots to explore there.

Something, before we go back to the idea of kind of like your vibe as a comedian, and there's some great stuff on that, you've got lovely material about your vibe, very, very funny stuff. And I want to interrogate some of that because I think that's quite interesting. But, let me interrogate to the extent that I would interrogate. What I mean is ask about it. Now I've got the Guardian in my head. I'm thinking I'm not going to actually interrogate you about it.

But you said there, moment ago, you said that I want to do poll dance. I keep mixing up pole dancing and podcast. I want to do poll dancing. I want to do pole dancing well because loads of people will give me shit about it. I would suggest that all I think from what I know of you, the main reason you want to do pole dancing well is that you want to do it well and you want to excel at it rather than that being motivated by oh I'm going to get some shit for it I think you my sense is that you probably want to be brilliant at it I think I mean I think there's certain like genetic and like age advantages

that have already like passed me by because it is it is such a I find it amazing I think it's such like a transformative sport but you're going to get like a whole lot of upper body strength right you're going to get, swall. And I do want to be good at it, but I think the reason that I want to excel at it is because it feels kind of subversive. And there's another comic called Shan Doxy. Yes, I was talking to Shan earlier this week, in fact.

Yes. So she's probably spoken to you about pole dancing in depth. But I think she said something. I'm not sure if she originated it. But pole dancing is essentially a discipline that's invented by drunk single moms. And a lot of, people who do it have been marginal, like are marginalized, have been marginalized or like economically disadvantaged, not necessarily. And also with like pole fitness, you know,

anyone can jump around and twirl themselves around like a little cab. But I think it feels like a healing way to be in touch with my body. Whereas like I didn't think, much like once, upon a time, I didn't really think comedy was for me. I think I didn't really consider myself to be like an athletic person or a strong person. And also it's fun because it's like, it's like kind of naughty. So it can be naughty. At the moment, I very much do poll like it's professional tennis. And I just make lots of loud noises and like grunting and exert on myself.

Got it. Got it. Yeah, yeah. But I think if you can get into flow with something like that and find your own way of moving it is quite liberating. So, yeah. But I know, I'm not going to name them because I don't believe they need airtime on this, on this platform. But I'd know that a lot of the of the not so nice white men of comedy

would give me absolute shit for getting on a poll. Okay. Hey, they'd sign up to get their comp tickets, but they wouldn't. What do you anticipate their angle of attack would be? What kind of shit would they give you for that? Hmm, I haven't really delved into this. I think they would be like,

I don't think they'd understand what I was doing. with it. I think nudity is really interesting in comedy because like it's received a very different way when like someone with like a cis female body or like basically like with tits does it although some of the men who get naked do have tits but I feel like when women like take their clothes off on stage

it is received very differently within comedy I think someone who I've seen do it really amazingly recently is Natalie Palamedas and Weir where she plays a man and a woman in a relationship but I think it's kind of it's so taboo and it's not immediately funny the way that like if a bunch of male comedians get take their tops off it's almost instantly hilarious like I've seen so many different comics that I love doing that I've seen Pappies do that I've seen like Nick Helm do that I've seen like loads of and I think think there's something about female nudity that is like a little bit like, I don't know,

I think that if you are making yourself vulnerable in that way, there has to be some sort of like worthiness to it, maybe. Like, whereas if you're a comedian, what you kind of just want to do is be dumb, I think. Like, yeah. But they want to like ascribe a reason to why you're getting it other than it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of emblematic. I would imagine that is emblematic. of one aspect of being a woman in comedy. Yeah. Which is that you don't just get to do the same stuff as the boys and be, you know what I mean?

Or like not the same stuff as the boys, but you know what I mean? It's like it's just so not a level playing field. Yeah. Even taking your top off. Well, maybe not even. Even something as simple and normal is taking your top off. But it's like one of those things whereby the meta rules about nipples

and you know you can't show nipples if it's a boob, but you can show male nipples. It's like it's just emblematic of the fact that this isn't a level playing field than anything I do, that if a man did it, it would just be just neutral, a guy having fun. If you do it,

then it necessarily has extra layers of meaning to it, which you then tirelessly have to think about and consider, as well as maybe can use in an exciting and layered way. Yeah, I think it's exactly that. And in terms of comedians taking their tops off, are you aware of comedians' DJ battles? Yes. I've never been to one,

But yeah. Yes. So comedians DJ Battles is a format created by Iber Grame, who's one of my close friends, where comedians DJ, and I say that with heavy sarcasm and inverted commas. They DJ competitively on a theme. It's basically just showing off to music in teams. But in that, a lot of the ladies get their tops off. And I was just like, I don't want us to, I don't want us to end up on Reddit.

You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's kind of the first time I saw a woman comic take a top off at comedians, DJ Battles. I was like, that's punk. Like, that's kind of great.

But I think it is kind of, it feels a bit defiant. And there is, I would say, disproportionate amount of excitement when it happens. And I have taken my top off at comedians, ZJ battles, but only briefly at the end. Yeah. I think that's also on my Instagram. But yeah, that's not a show that I've created, but I'm just kind of like, it feels sort of, yeah, anarchic and fun to do. I think the word defiant is a really good word there. I think, do you think you're quite defiant as a comic?

Do you think your vibe is quite defiant? I think I, I think my vibe is quite, I think my instincts are quite defiant. And I think I enjoy comedians and comedy that does something that kind of like, what is that thumbing your nose or like you know sticks a finger up or thumbs its nose or like like coquettishly undermines something else um but i do think that the scope that i have to be defiant in some of the work i've done and some of the work i've do and some of the reactions that have that have come towards me being defiant is limited and i find that um sad it's sad I don't think it's truly possible for comedians, whoever they are.

I'm not just talking about myself to be truly defiant because of the people that they also have to entertain and appease. But I think my instincts are very much, yeah, subversive. And I think I'm actually, I'm a bit of a scar on the inside. I'm talking about the lion from the Lion King. I'm like. Thank you for the clarification, yes. I'm very, I'm a scar. I'm a scourge on the comedy.

industry. I feel like I don't really get on with the like sort of like plucky hero characters a lot in fiction and narratives and I do kind of like people who are just sort of like grumpy slightly on the sidelines. Okay.

Okay. While we're on the subject am I remembering correctly that you did, when I say you're an internet person I said you're an internet person, I don't mean like you're a YouTuber, I just mean that by dint of the age gap between us and also just well I don't know but just kind of a cultural contact yeah yeah you show up on the internet and one of the things you did I think you did was did you at some point on your Instagram you were advertising a workshop for women to to make sexier photos of themselves to put online because I remember seeing that and just going like fuck you can't like I felt like my world is so small I was like oh my god you a comedian don't have to simply be a comedian you can also be a comedian you can also be.

a sort of sexually positive woman and helper and kind of workshop leader. You're going to tell me now that was a joke thing. I've misunderstood. No, it wasn't a joke thing. So it was during COVID where it was very easy to pretend like once career didn't exist because largely it didn't. And everyone was just at home. And I don't know why I did this.

I think maybe I just had a conversation with someone about sending nudes. And we, I ended up. Yeah, hosting two workshops, one with Sophie Hagen, whose name I'm always terrified I'm going to mispronounce, even though she's a very good friend. Sophie Hagen and one with Dan Wye, who plays Ciancé. So there were dude nudes because I was like, it's not just, you know, it's just not just people with fanny and tits who can benefit from knowing how to take a good photo. And I don't know if you've ever taken any nude photographs, but I think there's a lot of anxiety in men about how to look good and how to take a good. photograph and whether it's just kind of like it looks medical or it's just a bit. Sure. I can only imagine and I'm thrilled that my relationship predates this sort of this world.

But on behalf of, on behalf of, how can I phrase this delicately, on behalf of my children and the people growing up in the world, I'm glad there's people out there offering to teach people with penises how to display them in an attractive way. Because I can imagine were I not in a relationship, where I'm 20 years younger, I would be going, God, that's a. good point, yes, making it not look like a MetGar. Man, I'm so glad I haven't got to engage with this in life, but I'm thrilled you're doing it for people that do. Yeah, I mean, it's not been an ongoing thing, but what I, what I did is that we created like a sort of e-book called Dude Where's My Brough? And like, my friend in Detroit, who's an artist,

like, did illustrations based on photos that people had given consent to be included in it. Gotcha. Okay. And we like collated the advice and then the proceeds from, I think it was like five quid. I think we gave to a couple of charities. I think one of which was like lesbians and gays support the migrants. But yeah, I don't know. It's just a project. I love a project.

You do love a project. I do love a project. It's really bad. I'm taking on, oh my God, at the moment, I'm writing a book, which is disgusting. I know. I'm going to ask you all about your book, which I see from Amazon is to be released in March 2027.

Oh, God. And I'm thrilled to talk to you about that. We'll come back to the book. We'll come back to the process. But I love a project. And I think what's the new thing, it's just sort of interesting to have a platform. I have like a few thousand or like tens of thousands of people

who are just in your pocket. Obviously not all of them are watching you. A certain amount of them won't like you. But just to be able to have to make those connections. And with, I like have started to like host a party for people of color at the fringe, basically just in Edinburgh doing organ. the last few years. And in fundraising for that, I was like, I'm so lucky that people are looking at me and I can just be like, guys, are you going to donate to this? And in a few days,

I can like generate enough funds to have like a bedrock to like get people to be like safe going home and have taxis and stuff like that. So I think, I'm not always, I think sometimes I'm just doing something. And then not to say that I'm, I'm not trying to be like, I'm a very charitably minded person, but I think it just makes sense. It's like, if it's not something that's like purely for me like why not have it be something that's good for everyone oh my god I said I hate I hate this

I just want to be a dumb bitch but yeah like it's just like yeah let's let's throw a party and let's get people to fund it and I think that's one of the main reasons that I I sort of it's not that I don't like being online it's that I wish I could be my full real raw

unfiltered self but I don't want to do that because there are too many creepy men on the internet. And I also wish I could put loads of bad stuff online like I did when I was a teenager, but I don't feel like I can do that. But I do think there is an advantage to sort of slightly trying to play the game because the bigger your platform, you can do more cool things. So I'm not completely divorced from the idea of like trying to generate followers because I'm like, the more people that know what I'm doing, the more people that would like lightly be into coming to a show or being part of a weird, take your clothes off

experiment. Comedians and cars sending nudes. It's going to happen. It's very inspiring. It's particularly inspiring because I think that it's easy to look at you from the outside and go, wow, she's, you know what I mean? The fact that you're saying that I wish I could be my raw unfiltered self, I'm like, oh my God, there's more.

There's more. But I think it's really inspiring to hear the extent to which you seem to have thought through all of these things. I feel like every question I've got for you, you're giving me a considered answer because you've thought about it properly compared to, like, I often will end up, and I'm sure other people end up in sort of frequent loops of like, oh, I'd like to do that, but I just can't get over that. Then I always think about that and I'll never get around to it. You know, that kind of thing. So your predilection for a project and doing the actual reading and doing the thought about it and having the conversations, I think is really inspiring. And I can see you visually struggling as I pay you compliments.

I'm just turning into a tiny worm. Well, tiny worm. Let's adopt, I regret saying that. Let's investigate this idea of you existing in the context of better activists than you. Because I think that's really interesting. One of the things, when I listen to But Daddy I love her, which is, have you just come back from doing that in Brooklyn? Have you just been in New York doing that show or different show? I did.

The new show. I did. I did. The new show in Brooklyn. I, but yes, but Daddy, I love her, did a huge tour for it, which ended maybe earlier this year. I can't remember, but yeah, that was the last time I went to the fringe. So, yeah. Yes. So in that show, the thing that I wanted to ask you about was, it's a really funny show, really, really funny.

And you can hear the audience just exploding in that audio you sent me. It's just great. There is this sort of section where you talk to them about, like, what's my vibe? and here's what I'm here's the vibe that I want to have and what do you think the real vibe is and all the rest of it. And I did wonder, I'm sort of interested in the context of you saying, oh, you know, my, my empowerment is in the context of much more active activists than me. There's a few moments when you're sort of saying, it's almost like you're presenting yourself as this kind of like, oh, I'm such a dork and like, oh, I really want to be cool. And I'm listening to it going, Sophie, you're clearly the coolest person in that room. Do you know what I mean?

Is there like a, should have, she doth protest too much aspect to this? Where you're going, guys, what it reminded me of, and you'll hate this. It reminded me of when you get kind of white male t-shirt comedians on stage going, I just can't get a girlfriend and then they're at the bar scooping up women. My only love's from my only hate. What does that mean? Okay, this is actually... It's nothing like the second one.

I'm just, I'm teasing you. Do you know what I mean? I think... Wow. How, right. I think everything's relative, right? So I don't consider myself to be very cool. And I think that is maybe because a lot of people stay in their lane, I guess. A lot of people are like, they've got their tribe, they've got their group of people. There are a lot of comedy cliques as well, people to stay in that and people don't necessarily up until, I mean, people have always like pushed the boundaries or gone and done a theater show or like had, weird, like, niche interest and that's visible within comedy because medians are, like, interesting, interested people. But I think that bit where I stand up and I'm like, what's my vibe? I think it's because, okay, I know that I know that. I think it's because I think it's this, I think at my core, I am really not cool. I'm really not cool. Like, my partner, like, describes

who's being like a sort of like Victorian orphan urchin. Like I, I have very like horrible teenage boy references and I am quite like socially odd. Like I'm like I don't know. I'm like going to constantly to the end of my life evade neurodivergence diagnosis. But I don't feel I'm not as a person who like growing up entering the world was never someone that felt like they had loads of ease. And even now as a comedian, I feel like much less one of those comedians who is like, I'm immersed in it and I'm a huge clown and I'm the life of the party and more like an observer,

more the scar than the Simba or the Mufasa. So I just don't, whenever I look at myself and I feel like there's quite a lot of challenges towards me being in a space whenever I am in a space. I feel like I have to really assert myself. So I don't feel cool. But I do understand that I am maybe cooler. Cooler than maybe I was the cool. Actually in that room, name drop,

Graham Norton was in that room. He's pretty cool. He came to see the show and heard me doing a terrible Irish accent. Yeah, God, that was that show. That was that show. I was like, hey, I'm proud of me. But I think, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, I, yeah, maybe it's like cool dysmorphia.

I genuinely don't think I'm the coolest person to exist. And I think, like, musicians are cool. musicians are so cool my ex like worked in music whenever I went backstage at a music event there was actual like proper hierarchy British comedians I think are pretty uncool when I've been to New York and stuff

they're there they're wearing like couture you know they're taking stuff with the ground it's much more professional and much more competitive in states but UK comedians we're just we're just weirdos doing our thing you know well I mean it's absolutely

of course we're all just weirdos doing thing and I'm interested in kind of like what the boundaries are of cool because those things you mentioned about like people wearing couture and lots of status and everyone knows their place in the hierarchy and that kind of stuff I don't know how cool that is. Okay. I always think of cool as being um this is uh hi I'm a 48 year old white man I'm going to say what I think cool is based on a Douglas Adams novel. Oh my god yes which which Douglas Adams is the one I it's the bit where it's the bit where I think there's like the, or no, I think it might even be Terry Pratchett. It's like there's the monks of cool and the passing out ceremony of when you've studied

with the monks of cool is they go, what's the coolest outfit on this rack? And the correct answer is whatever I choose. Do you know which I really like? I think that's sweet. But you know what that's giving? I mean, this is maybe unrelated. That's really giving Oxbridge interview. That whole like set up.

Oh, is it? Yeah. I've never done one. You have. I have done one. But it was always like the law of like they're going to throw a ball at you. And if you like catch it, you get a place. And if you throw it back, you get first.

Like all this stuff of like this weird mind experiment thing. But yeah, cool being whatever you choose to do is, yeah, that's who I think is cool. Yeah, that is who I think is cool. But by that metric, you're cool. Okay. Yeah. No, I guess I am. I guess I'm reluctant.

I guess I think I think is that I do think about it. I don't not think about actually I've completely contradicted myself. I think a lot of the time I am in denial about the implications of something. If I feel like I have to do something, whether it's get tied up at a kinky party because I want to try it or it's say I'm not going to do latitude because of who their headline sponsor is, I sort of just like pull the lever and then deal with all the emotions and the ramifications of it. but I think yeah if being cool is like feeling the fear and doing it anyway I sometimes try and preempt fear by making the decision that I know is right or I know I want to do and then sitting with the consequences

and not being cool as a cucumber but just being like I guess we're here now I guess this is my brand that's good that's like throwing yourself that's that is a very comedian thing isn't it you throw yourself into danger because this is the right thing to do and then you're like oh now I've got to cope I think that's actually been, got me into good places, but also bad places in my career.

Like, I remember my agent being like, can you do impressions? For spitting a bitch and I was like, can I do impressions? I don't do impressions. I ended up doing such and like, I was like, it's fine. I'm going to be like Megan Markle. So I got really good at Megan Markle's voice. And then in the same interview, they asked me to do Michelle Obama. And I was like, well, I haven't done that.

And I'm not like, Jess Robbins. I can't do I can do Megan Markle doing Michelle Obama Yeah And a lot of the time I've just sort of like

I remember Lollie Adaphopo once asked me if I could DJ and I was like Can I DJ And then I report myself

To DJ In like three days for her birthday party That's This is advice That could go in A self-help book When someone asks you

If you can do something And you can't do it Think to yourself Can I do that? That's good That feels like good advice Yeah, do it. Sometimes you can. Do you remember when Adam Bloom came onto this show last year to talk about his new book,

Finding Your Comic Genius, because I gushed about it at the time. And now this episode of the podcast is sponsored by an advert for that book, which is newly released on Audible in the sort of audiobook format. And I'm having to read from the advert because if I go off-piece and just talk about how much I love it, here all day. The book is about spoken word, right? It's about the live art of stand-up comedy. So audiobook is a brilliant place to enjoy it already. Not least in this case, because Adam is actually joined in narrating the audio book by eight guest narrators, including previous Comcom guests and living comedy legends like Matt Lucas, Ninia Benjamin and Ed Byrne. Now, the book was aimed at people

who already do stand-up comedy, but literally thousands of new and aspiring comedians all over the world have used the chapters, 17 chapters, all about writing material. They've used that to prepare for their first time on stage. So if that sounds like you, then this might be right up your street. Jim Jeffries says, No one on Earth knows more about stand-up comedy than Adam Bloom, happily co-signed by your humble podcaster. And Rich Hall says,

Adam explains things about comedy I didn't even realise. And I absolutely agree with that take as well. On first reading the first couple of chapters, I started thinking in terms of balloon pops and seesaw. and I think of those terms that he has minted all the time. The audiobook version of Finding Your Comic Genius is exclusive to Audible, but you can also get it on Amazon in paperback and on Kindle. So don't delay, get on your Audible app,

and use whatever unused credits have been hovering around for weeks and months and get across this. It's so, so good. So this is Sophie. She's so great. She's so wise. She's done the reading, and she's really full of it. them and she's so, so funny and I'm just loving this conversation with her to the extent that

I'm going to bring in the second half of it in just a moment. Keep up to date with Sophie on Instagram at Sophie Duke Box. And if you are heading to the Melbourne Comedy Festival, or even if you're not heading there, if you're just in there to begin with, if even right now you are in a sort of ventilation system waiting in a room that has yet to be turned into a venue, don't do that. But if you're heading there or already there in March and April, make sure you go and see the Sophie Duker Show. More details on that in the show notes. And you can see me live in Newbury, Lester, Bristol and London,

not to mention loads of other places as well. I mean, if you're in Michigan, if you're in Ann Arbor, Michigan, or if you're in Boulder, Colorado, or if you're in Phoenix, Arizona, or if you're, I'm not gigging there, but I could run into and say hello in San Francisco, California, as no one bothers saying, then you can come and see me in those places. And if you want to know more, go to Stuart Goldsmith.com. comedy. The shows I'm doing in Boulder and I think they are public shows in Boulder and Arbor.

And if you want to know more about them, you'd better email me at Stuart atcomedianscommodion.com. And if you're in those places and I can try and smuggle you in, I will. But the others are all public shows. I'm particularly excited about Lester. Lester Comedy Festival's coming up on the 20th of February, which is not far from here. And there have been some significant rewrites and more significant rewrites to do. So, do me a favour, come to the firebug at 6pm. I normally would know who's on after me so I could shout them out as well. But there's always great lineups at the firebug. Brilliant, brilliant venue. So please do, come along and see that. I've got so much to talk about. Some of it will be, I would say maybe half of it is probably the best half of last year's

one. So I'm not going to look out at the audience at you if you came last year and I'm not going to think to myself, oh, I'd better do something different because they're here. It's the best bits of that and all the best new bits and I've got a title and I'm very excited about it. So come along to that. Stuartgoldsmith.com slash comedy. Sign up to the mailing list at Stuartgoldsmith.com. That's the Comcom pod monthly mailing list or if you're a climate and sustainability person. There's a special list there for you because you're special. Coming up in the second half with Mazduca, we will be discussing how comedy can tackle taboo subjects without losing the laughs. We'll talk about financial awareness and how that is essential for new comedians. That doesn't come up a lot and it should.

We'll talk about touring outside London and how that can reveal the best and worst of people and we will find out whether the bastard's happy. So all of that to come right now. Let's get back to Sophie Jr. This is maybe an impossible question. Can you think of a particular bit of yours that had sufficient clarity

that it was a wallop of a laugh, but it also faithfully represented the nuance in a situation? Oh, I mean, not at the top of my head, but I think this is actually not something I've ever done in a show, but it's something that felt very, I knew, oh God, it's going to sound terrible. Anyway, I'm going to say it anyway. One of the bits that I did really early on that a lot of comics were like, would like congratulate me on. And like some white male comics said that they wish they could do this bit was about 12 years a slave. and it was sort of like

my reading of it was like it was like a romantic comedy like so I'm like watching it like this obviously like quite trauma porny film like wet with tears but also like a little moist and I'm talking about like the dynamics between Le Peter Njonga and what's his name?

Can't remember. And the male actor and so I don't think that my silly material but the thing is I kind of wasn't saying it to be provocative I was kind of saying like, it's weird that a really hot actor is playing a racist. It's weird. It's weird. This guy is Fastbender, isn't it?

It's weird that, you know, like, you've been like told to like eroticize this man. So it's kind of just like there's a sexy racist and you have to suspend this disbelief to watch someone play this like big meaty like Oscar role. And I think that I think for me, I guess maybe it was like the shock value of that. think it was also like the genuine truth of it. Not that I'm like, I'm like, wanking off to 12 years of slave, which I categorically am not. If anything comes from this podcast interview, let it be known that I'm not wanking off to 12 years a slave. I think it was just like that wasn't something that I said to be relatable. You know what I mean? And it is something that is obviously nuanced and you could talk about, you could write essays about. But I think the

kind of like, yeah, like what is going on kind of thing? Sure. Is something. that people of any background can kind of relate to in their own way or recognise. And I think that that thing of having a taboo thought is something that we've all had or having the wrong thought at the wrong time is something we've all had. And I think, because at the time it didn't cost that much to me, just actually being genuine about my experience actually made a bit that really hit, even if people couldn't directly relate to thinking Michael Fasbender was a sexy racist. Yes. That's a great example. You said it's not a great example. It's the perfect example.

It's like a cast iron comic premise. Everyone can get behind it, but it's incredibly rich and layered and it's genuinely talking about a thing. It reminds me if there's another... What did you do in your Apollo set? There's two clips of your Apollo set online. I watched them both this morning,

and I'm struggling to remember which bit I mean, and I didn't make any notes on them. Oh, no, no, it's fine. I actually don't know what was broadcast, because I have never watched it back. Have you not? Have you really not? I've seen like it's been put in adverts as like for my tour or whatever so I've seen bits of it but I know. Sure.

I love doing it though. I actually hated being told that I'd got Apollo. Sorry. Sorry. My steak is too buttery. My lobster is too juicy. Like when I gave to call me and she was like, oh, you're like going to be on Apollo or something. And I was like, okay.

But I was just like, this is going to make the next two weeks so stressful. And then I did it. And it's really nice to perform to 4,000 people. Isn't it nice? Isn't it nice? Isn't it a lovely thing to get to do? What a treat. It's such a treat and I had such a fun time. Anyway, I spoke about, I did the black bit. The black bit, mine time. I did the bit about, oh, the African Americano, black coffee, not an African Americano. They lost their minds of that. They lost their, they love that. They were like, but what I was really proud of my Apollo set because I think I walked up, I was like, I'm Sophie and I'm openly black comedian. I did a lot of COVID stuff, which probably wasn't broadcast.

I spoke about being at house parties with like, being like having IMDMA thumbed into my mouth by like white guys. A white guy. Yeah, I remember that. Skinny jeans. It's very funny. And I feel like, I can't remember what else was in it. But I feel like the structure of it was really like, I really taught, I feel like I really taught them how to laugh at me and like flags what I was going to be about so that they got it by the time I was.

was talking about the stuff I wanted to talk about, I couldn't tell you what was in the set. That is, you know what? It doesn't matter. That sentence, I taught them how to laugh at me. Yeah. It's such a good sentence. I don't think anyone's ever said that before. I mean, I think we've kind of danced around that subject before. But what? I just stay with that for a minute. That's what you have to do to do that stuff. First, you have to teach them how to laugh at you. Can you tell me a bit more about that? That's brilliant. Oh, I think so, I think with the Polisette, which again, I partially don't remember. I think it's just like one of my favorite

quotes about myself, which maybe, oh no, it wouldn't have been in what you listen to because of the daddy, I love her. But anyway, one of my favorite quotes about myself that someone has written is that she like rips through like sex and race with relish. And that, I like that stuff. I like the slightly taboo stuff. I like that meaty stuff. But if you are like performing at a comedy and curry night or in a mixed bill, like people don't necessarily want to think about, you know, of how the country's falling into the toilet or sex or race and stuff like that. And I think you have to,

it's kind of jarring if you talk about like a silly story about something that just happens to you on the train and then launch into lots of political material. So I think for me just like flagging that it's there, really up top. I mean, obviously like me walking on stage up top and also like more and more people knowing who you are, a bit of what you're about does some of the work.

But I think flagging up top or finding like, a way to even like get a word into people's ears like to hear something so that they're listening on like a different frequency and then just settling them in and being like I'm a real comedian I can do jokes and then like pulling on that thread um is yeah sort of how I think you've got to be you've got to be listening I'm sorry if you're going to come soon to come you've got to be listening um yeah I think you've and I think you've and I think yeah I think yeah I think there's a big thing of like just starting hard so people know that you can do it, that you're not fuss, that like you're telling them who you are that it's going to, I think mostly I'm, yeah, I think mostly sometimes I try and do something different with, so like at the moment, I've started a lot of sets being like, which feels dangerous because it feels, okay, at the moment, recently I've started a lot of sets talking about the first time a man went

down on me and then talking about fingering. and I think fingering is a great leveler. I think it's very silly. I think it's, I'm talking about like actually quite graphic stuff. Like after I've done the fingering bit, which so far has always gone well, I can kind of do whatever because I'm like, I don't know if anyone else in the room has ever had the pleasure of being fingered by a teenage boy, which is a wild thing to say.

That's like 10 seconds in. I don't know if anyone's had the privilege of being fingered by a teenage boy. what do I say but it's not a frictionless experience and then I'm just like okay so without that line with like I don't know if anyone to understand the privilege of being fingered by a teenage boy

it's not a frictionless experience I'm like I'm gonna talk about some quite close to the collar stuff close to the collar close to the bone I'm smart I use the word privilege sure sure sure sure sure I've used multi-salavit words

but then I'm talking about like what's it dust and like just like Selena's and like how like the motion of figuring is like tickling the chin of a puppy or like fishing your keys out from behind a radiator

and people are just like this is funny like I like to be I always try to like to like more embodied in my comedy and like doing the motion or like getting people to do the motion or be like asking who enjoys fingering and then they never raise their hands

ha ha ha ha ha very funny but like I'm like okay they're like I'm awake I'm awake, I'm listening. And then if I'm talking more about like how masculinity or like if I might be like done with men or whatever, they're kind of already like primed. Like the point was never to and with me is never to shock people. I'm never like what's the most outrageous thing I can say. It's more because I guess my life is just like a lot of like sex and violence.

No, it genuinely is. I think like even though I'm like very privileged or like. not as privileged as some people in comedy, but like I consider myself very lucky. I consider myself to be like lucky to have had and like worked towards the amount of success that I've had and to be in the right place and the right time in terms of like my parents coming here

and where I was born and what I managed to do. The reality of my life as a person and as a comedian is always kind of feels dangerous. Like being on my first tour, I don't think my agency anticipated some of the challenges that I would have as being someone who is quite visible and also who is me.

Like I got like, like, like, I got like grabbed after shows. Like people like, I sometimes like, I think like the threat of physical danger or someone like physically taking me somewhere. Like it literally like happened a couple of times like because I'd, what? Yeah, it's just quite weird.

And like a man like in York just jumped out from behind a car. People like wait for you to sign things. but because I am not like because I am a five foot three maybe nearly because I'm like a small woman and I am from London and I don't have like I haven't been I don't think I am famous but I haven't been like visible for like a huge amount of time I'm like I'm taking the train like I don't have like I'm always also like super tight like I'm always trying to save money so I'm like going to try and get back on the train the same night I'm going to probably have to walk past the audience. to get to the station. I'm staying in like shitty places because like I think not all of it ties to being like second generation or being an immigrant or having parents in certain situations but you're kind of like I have to have like a responsibility with this money. So like me staying in like a nice safe hotel.

Obviously I do stay in some nice safe hotels but I'm more trying to like be like what can I do with this? How can I grow it? And that makes me really accessible as a as a public person. and it can be like quite dangerous, but also, yeah, it can be quite dangerous. And also when you're travelling around, especially when, you know, there's roundabouts with, like, flags on them. There are some spaces you don't necessarily feel comfortable in. Yeah, I got, I also, I feel like, again, don't want the takeaway to be like,

Sophie Duke keeps getting grabbed. But I remember getting grabbed at like Bristol Temple Meads in my last tour. And it was just by, I think, like, I had my headphones in and I was like crossing trains. And I don't even think the person knew. who I was I can't really remember but she just sort of like grabbed me from behind and it's like very scary

and my life obviously is also like very joyful and you know exciting and fun and like has nuances and layers that because of who I am and where I've grown up etc that I wouldn't have had otherwise but I think I couldn't be a comedian that just

taught well for me I couldn't be a comedian that talks about like very trivial everyday stuff because I think there's a certain amount of like edge and spice to like just existing in the spaces that I've either been put in or chosen to exist and that comes out in my comedy. So I feel like it was, it is a bit. Yeah. Spicy.

Yeah. Are you, I don't know if my webcam is good enough for me to tell whether you're a bit visibly upset at the moment. Oh no. Oh no. I'm not. I'm not upset. I just haven't washed my face this morning.

I just, I like, that seems fucking horrible. Getting grabbed after gigs. Yeah. But you've articulated very well that that is, you know, that's part of you being alive and being in the world. Yeah. And the thing about flags as well, fucking absolutely hate the areas near where I live where you go, oh, I hate the experience of going through somewhere and going, oh, right, this is a self-identified flag area. I'm very lucky that I don't have to live in one of those areas.

But imagine living in one of those areas and waking up and going, oh right, great, this is a flag area now. Thanks. Thanks, handful of individual flag wielders. That's fucked up. But, you know, yeah, oh, that's awful. I don't know. I've got anything to contribute on that.

But what I will say is that if I hadn't had this job, I would probably just have stayed mainly within the M25 and been like a Londoner, been like a cosmopolitan Londoner, thought that like the rest of the country was racist and being on tour one I get to connect with people and people come specifically to see me in those places but also I just like love so many parts of the UK that I would never have seen otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I like I fucking love the northeast. I really, really enjoy it there. I just think it's it's nice to be when people go to the comedy usually. Um, they want to have a good time.

And so like, I think you really do get to see the best of people and create the best environments to actually get to know people. And if you're on stage and your voice is amplified, you're allowed to ask people cheeky questions and cut beneath the surface of people who wouldn't necessarily think anything about you if they saw you like in the street or in a pub. And so that's quite nice to get to the real like human underbelly of people. And that is good. And not everyone is grabby. But yeah. People try to like, it is. It's just, I think it is just a thing that if you are, if you are me, if you're like a young woman and you're on tour, people will be weird to you as well as nice to you. And like, there's a certain danger element. I was talking to, um, Mwan, uh, Rizwan about how it's like kind of ruined flirting. And he was like, yeah, I wrote a song about this. It's like, he's got a song that's like, are you checking me out? Or are you just a racist? Or have you seen beyond Taskerster?

Yeah. And it's true. You're just like, oh, someone's like, or someone's just smiling at me. You're like, oh, but maybe they're smiling because they're like, I've seen you on celebrity mastermind. And it's not actually a nice moment of acknowledgement. It's just, I mean, it is. But yeah. Yeah, I found the few weeks that I spent being a bit famous years ago, I didn't like at all.

Because it's precisely because of that nature of you walk past someone. and they look at you for slightly longer than casual eye contact, could still be casual eye contact, or do they know something about me? And I'm existing as the norm, the official cultural, inverted commas, norm. I'm just a white guy, you know. But what does he know about me?

No, I didn't like that at all, and that must be a really multiplying factor. Yeah, yeah. A couple of other questions. Have you, do you think, reached a sort of, by nature of your success, Have you reached a kind of escape velocity from certain things within comedy, like reviews? You know the way when like, you know, you're a baby comedian and like Chortle seems incredibly important. And then you get older and you go, oh, okay, fine.

Do you feel like you've escaped from that in terms of like your output, the things you want to say, the audience you command, are reviews important to you? Have they ever been? I'd love to say they weren't at all that I didn't give it. fuck but I'm like every time I don't get a job or I don't get the review that my show deserves I'm like you're this is my life you're fucking with my money I'm like polona faith with Alan Carl and like celebrity traitors I'm like this is what I do for a living how dare you like obviously I'm not entitled to every job or every review but I think that I think that in the little weird ecosystems of fringe or of like getting particular buzz behind the show,

I think unfortunately like a few people can be quite influential and whether you get a little boost or not. And so I think that will as long as I'm like playing in that sand pit will always feel like something that could really like, it just feels useful. But I don't think it matters as much to me anymore. I also think that it has been said to me that, in terms of like things becoming more or less important. I haven't really known why people, I remember the first time I did a show, I did a show called Wacky Racists at the Aces and Aits,

which is like a faulty capacity room. And my friend came from America and she was like, oh my God, it's not just our friends here. Like it's just told out. I did a show called Diet Woke. That was the first show I ever did. It wasn't like a full hour show, but like it's like sold out in the very limited places I took it. And like someone from the telegraph came and there's been like attention on it every single time I've done the Edinburgh Fringe with a show.

I've sold it apart from like the comps and the reviewer tickets. I've sold out completely. Like I've sold every ticket. And I think that to a certain extent it is, it also does feel very precarious because I've started like kind of like buffering with free. year between doing shows and not doing shows every single year on the trot, which some people do. And I think that's amazing. I think it does feel precarious like it could all disappear. But I think that to a certain extent, my success or popularity or appeal in general and places like the fringe doesn't feel dependent on what these people are writing about me in their blogs or

even in like broadsheets. I think that I do or have managed to like communicate something that appeals to people and to a different, like when I see, when I'm at Soho Theater and I see my audience leave and another audience come in, I think I do have an overlap with certain kinds of people that wouldn't normally go to comedy or aren't heavily represented in comedy in lots of different ways. And so I'm like, I don't need you to say that this is amazing or I don't need you to give me the little seal of approval because I know objectively that this is resonating with people. Like when I did but Danny I love her, I sent you a very early recording from Edinburgh. I was like, this is obviously the best show I've ever done. I never feel unsafe on stage.

Like it's not a perfect show because you can't make a perfect show, but I was just like, I felt so proud anytime people came to see me in it because I was having so much fun, the audience was having so much fun. And like, there are sometimes when you're just like, I'm racing through this material, but in every bit I could find joy. So I'm like, in my head, I know I don't need the reviews or the awards or the, I don't know what else there is. I mean, the reviews on the awards. I know I don't need them, but the little, like, eldest daughter inside me just really wants, like, someone to say, like, you've done a good job. Like, you are.

Yeah. And also, you don't have to do it. Like, I think, I think the big, clear things that have been, like, a boost in my career or a nomination or an award has been like, yeah, like, you're not crazy. you are okay you you what this is verifiable that you have something of quality and it's nice to hoard those but I know I don't need them and I know that not all of I don't respect all of the opinions that are thrown about in those spaces and I know also a lot of it is about PR and that and this is a thing of why I've distanced myself from the fringe as well is that even though I'm, I think one of the lucky ones in terms of being like just before the pandemic was able

to debut and to have an audience there in particular, I'm like, it's just really inaccessible to people without money to put behind their shows and without those kind of privileges that exist in their lives anyway. So it's not, it's not the place I want to make my forever home. But when I started going to the fringe, I was like, I love this place. It's incredible. And now I'm like, it's it's yeah it's great

it's a thing it's one of the available things what tips you mentioned money you mentioned money earlier on like you're fucking with my money to the reviewer I said on a

sort of like a kind of Patreon content for this show in the Insiders Club I said recently something about someone asked a question about what do you wish you could ask you could ask acts you know, guests of the podcast more about.

And I said, well, do you know what? No one ever talk about agents, totally understand why. No one ever really wants to talk about money. Totally understand why. And a very clever listener got in touch and said, I could ask instead, what tips about money do you have for newer acts? Like, what advice have you got about how to look after money within comedy

or whether it's like, you know, just little life hacks on kind of, or things you've seen other comics do about, like, negotiating or making sure you get paid or those kind of things. So like a coward, I'm hiding behind that question. I think as much as possible, especially when it's like a new gig, I think I think you have to be aware. I mean, obviously some people don't need to because they are independently wealthy. But I think you should always sort of have a sense of like how much are the tickets, how many people are on the bill? Does that sort of make sense? Are you essentially guesting in something to just be a little bit of window dressing on a vehicle for making

somebody else money and if so you should know that when you're agreeing to it or are you like a sort of equal partner and it's being kind of roughly split um i think that even now and like with friends like there are certain acts that i will just like like i feel like olga i could just be like how much is this being paid or like katherine bowhart and i think it's uh important to I think it's hard because usually lots of the people that you come up with will be sort of framed as your competition. And it is, it kind of feels a bit, well, touch you to, like, ask about stuff. But I think it's so important to, it's so important to know because you can, I think you can assume you're going to be treated well or treated the same. And people, no one's really advocating for your career specifically apart from you, not even your, not your, not your, like, agent or like your favorite booker.

They are sort of just trying to make the money work their end. and sometimes trying to give other people chances and you have to just really know why you're getting into stuff and not just trust blindly that if you're lucky enough to have representation that that person will just take care of you and get you the best deal. So I'd be like, check that.

And I think that, yeah, I think it's not, it's not embarrassing because, well, not that anyone said it was embarrassing, but I did a gig with another act who I would say is, who is also a, woman, I mean, it doesn't really matter if you guess who is, who is also a woman who I would say is more famous than me, doing it longer. I was opening, which is like more, well, like she was doing

like a sort of middle spot and I was getting paid less, but we were both getting paid but less than all the boys, which is kind of crazy. And I think sometimes it's like human error, sometimes it's like habit. But I think it's like, why am I getting paid? Like I was like, yeah, I think sometimes it's like I'd rather do less time and get paid less or I'd rather, I just, you'd just rather like have transparency about what the structure is. And I think that can happen at any level and has been a conversation that's happened recently where like I and like I was with like very much like peers and one of us was getting paid a lot less for the same gig. And it's just something you have to, yeah, arm yourself with. And yeah, that's a very lot of sense. Can you do anything about it at the time?

Can you say, like, or is it almost, do you feel that, like, once you've agreed to it, brackets with no context about where you are in the hierarchy, you have to stick with that? Do you feel like it's going to cause problems if you get together with the other acts and say, hey, one of us isn't being paid as well? Can we sort that out? Do you feel empowered to do that? Or does it feel like it's more of like something that you chalk up and go, I'll remember to ask in advance next time?

I think it's hard to do after the fact, but also I have always wanted, have always had this sort of squeamishness about raising my ticket prices, wanted to keep my ticket prices low. And then I was told at one point I was like, oh, let's keep the ticket prices around this point. Well, they're like, well, this person is having their ticket prices at this amount. And you obviously can't have ticket prices lower than them. Oh, yes, because there's a kind of branding issue.

Like you're positioning yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And I called this act, who is my friend. Who could it be? I mean, it could be a lot of people. I have a lot of friends. But I called this act and I was like, do you, well, I wasn't like, do what you want.

But I was like, next time we're doing our tours or we're setting our prices, let's chat about what they've said to us. That's fucking brilliant. Because like, because they'll just be like, well, this is, this is in line with what, this every year, it's like, this is in line with what people are charging in Edinburgh. or this is in line if you want to like, I've been given probably like the Phil Wang template of like how to go up a level. This is what Phil Wang did. This is what ex person did.

And it's like, yeah, like you don't, it doesn't have to be that way. But it's kind of like, and I don't think it's super like cynical on terms of like, obviously I'm with Avalon. I, controversially, no offense.

I love my agent and I have had like an amazing time. And I think maybe I shouldn't talk too much about Avalon when you literally said people don't talk about it. No, that's okay. I think you can say positive things about you. Yeah, but I mean, like, I think I didn't want to sign with Avalon. And I don't mind them knowing this originally because I thought every other agency was like, they're evil. At the time, they were like, they're evil. And I can, and my agent is brilliant.

And so are so many of the other agents I interact with there. Obviously, they haven't been taken care of me. But I think it's not necessarily. like an intentional thing to I don't think they're trying to like manipulate people I just think they have different priorities and eyes on different things and you need you really need to take care of you

even if you are with a brilliant agent at an agency that's got a lot of clout you really because you're the one that can see what you need and where you might go clearer than anyone and it's hard for us as like artists or like people with ADHD to want to think about that but I think it's really important.

important. So before we wrap up, tell me about Dong. I'm thrilled you're writing a book called Dong. And from the premise, it sounds fantastic. Hey, the premise, we love a premise, we love a project. What is harder is writing a full book. So Dog is, it sort of stands for Dirty Old Nice Guy. Dog is a book about, I haven't got like the pitchfully down for it because I'm, I mean, I've literally sold it already. It's coming out in 2027. But it's sort of about comedy. It's sort of about comedy and telly and entertainment and power. And it's about the friendship between a young black woman who is not me,

but who is writing in the first person and her friendship with this older like male talent. And I think it's obviously like drawn a lot from like when I used to work in television. and my experiences within the industry. Yes, that's what it's about. That's all you need, tell us, if people can find out more about it. When they're pre-ordering it on Amazon, which I imagine you can already be. I think that I feel like my publisher is going to be like,

why did you say, not what? I feel like I'm really interested about the reception to the book because I think people will try and baby reindeer it, which to be honest, I don't entirely hate. Sure. But it is a novel, and so it's not about anything in specific. And it's more just like, yeah, I find, I find particularly like TV, I find the way that people, people's relationships to fame and power, like, really, really crazy.

So it's a lot of fun to write, but it is also so humbling and hard to write. and I think it's going to be really fun when it comes out. Do you have a first draft of the entire thing? Oh yeah, that's done. But I need to redraft it. And it's not lots. That sounds like hell. Yeah.

It's like writing it again. Yeah. But I was very, we don't need to get into how I sold the book. But I didn't, I just was like, I'm going to write a book, I guess. And they were like, okay. But you kind of have to write the book before you, before you like sell the book. And I was like, okay. I'm just going to write like a chunk of the book because I was just like,

there's no way I can write a book at the same time as touring and being a comedian. And then based off like a section of the book that I wrote, that's how I sold it, which is why it's not completely a lot of manuscripts to the age. This is not interesting. But anyway. No, this is interesting. Yeah, got it.

But yeah. And I think that's, that feels kind of amazing. And I'm really excited. And I think as a way to express myself and what I think is funny and what I think is interesting or dark or weird about. our industries, I think that a book is a cool format to do it in because you could do literally anything. But that makes it very scary as well. Great, great. Thank you. So penultimate question.

Yes. And I love asking this of people who I consider to be very successful. You, Sophie Duker, are very successful. Why aren't you more successful? Oh, okay. I think, honestly, think about it, of the Palestine thing. No. I genuinely I was in a process. Don't talk about this. I've been in certain processes

where, so I was in a process an audition process with, I sometimes worry that the fact that I am slightly political online might affect how willing people are to involve me in certain projects. And I think I had

an experience on a television show a while back where, yeah, I was talking about protest. It was like a topical, like, news show and I was talking about, like, protest. And there was a lot of censorship and discussion around the treatment of the topic of Israel and Palestine. And some things became apparent to me on that. It was just obviously that people, I feel like I'm a very approachable person. and I also feel like, especially in TV where when I was working in it, I would just kind of like get on with it.

I would never insist that I said anything on a program where I'm like, it's going to get cut out of the edit anyway. On that show, I was very, I think people were, this is such a terrible thing for me to independently bring up. I think that sometimes people really like people who they consider to be moldable. And I think that certain things that I've done and said throughout my career, people know that I'm not just going to read what's put in an auto queue if it's incredibly sensitive information that hasn't been verified or even seen by me. And it's being presented as my own organic jokes.

I'm not going to say stuff that I don't believe in. I'll be part of stuff I don't believe in if I'm like informed about it or I'm aware that I'm not informed about it. And I think that that I think it's something that I'll never be able to verify. And it's not something that I let dominate me. but I do wonder about that being, making me a less attractive proposition. And also I think since, since I was a little baby comedian, I remember when I was like nominated for Best Newcomer,

I remember hearing that someone, a fully grown woman, who's like a big person at the fringe, was like ranting about me and saying how I was like this like, I can't remember the words but saying I was just this like unfunny like woke like point trying to make this point like

activist comedian and someone who's never seen me perform before and I think that even daring to be in the same even daring to be political and separately be a comedian not that those things don't intertw get people's back up so I think that that is something that

maybe has affected it why else aren't I more successful? I think that I love being lots of different things. I love being like a chameleon. I think that I've been able to like be in like an incredibly fucked up and also privileged educational environment. I do like hang out with old white men. I've had a lot of mentors and friends who've been old white men. That's unusual. I'm like a little like book one that likes to read and like likes to say the

wrong thing. And I think that in terms of that clarifying. that we spoke about earlier. Maybe if it was a sort of simpler cell, like we know who Sophie is exactly, that would be more sellable, that would lead to more success. Yeah, why aren't I more successful? Someone literally asked me this at like,

she'll feel bad if she hears. I absolutely love her, but she was like, why don't you, she was like, why don't you have your own show at the screening of, at the screening of juice? she asked me this. She was like, why don't you have your own sitcom? She's like, what are we going to be at Sophie's?

And I'm just like, how do you have written that? You know what I mean? Like, it's like, because someone was saying like, I should do more acting. I was like, I think maybe, I don't know if we've ever spoke about this. Like, I was in a Marvel film. Which Marvel film are you in? A bad one. Which one?

Sorry, Marvel. The Marvel. That's fine. I was in the most. The Marvel. I was a character called Jane. Maybe this is actually, I got inducted into the whole Marvel universe. The scenes got cut.

they really had nothing to do with the main plot. But that is very sad because that happened, obviously, it happened maybe in 2022. And it would have been quite a boost. I think that something that feels common in the experience of people who are not the norm, and that doesn't necessarily mean in terms of, like, identity, is that there's a lot of them being in the mix,

but not necessarily given the, and the, like, peak of, like, the few people who are given the chance is a lot smaller. So I think if you're selling something that's more straightforward and mainstream, it's kind of easier to slot you in, but people feel like they're taking a bigger... I don't think I'm particularly controversial.

I don't think I'm particularly weird, but I think if you're anywhere in that category, people can be a little bit afraid to give you, like, the big break, even though they acknowledge that you're very good. So I think maybe that's why I'm not more successful. Such a long answer. I should just said, like, London, like, I should go to America.

I should just do a London he used to go to America. But I hate Americans. So it's hard. Thank you. That was a really well-reasoned answer. It's been such a joy having you on the show. Thank you. What I've particularly loved,

there have been several moments where you've looked up like that and I've just seen you think really hard about something and come up with a proper reasoned answer. There's one question left which I will ask you, which is this. Are you happy? I am happy.

I think it feels kind of nuts to be happy when the world is the way it is in certain aspects, geopolitically, and also just, you know, sometimes people do crazy things. And it feels nuts to be happy because comedians and artists performers are never happy, we're always looking to the next thing. Why aren't I on that show? Why didn't I get that break? but I do, I regretfully love doing comedy. I don't always know what that will mean for me. And I'm really excited about I am doing. This again feels my key to do and I need to stop going off on tangents.

I am excited about the book. I'm excited about the acting I'm doing. I'm excited about what it means to be someone who's visible and the fact that I can do weird nude workshops. But I'm really proud of like, I think I am going to get emotional. now. I think I'm really proud of how I've, oh my gosh, I had to stop going to therapy. I'm really proud of how like secure I've been able to make myself in my life and how I've been able to like help the people around me. And I think like if you're going to get up on a microphone and like say nothing,

that might be fun. But like, I feel proud that even though I'm not trying to do it all the time, that when people come up to me and say, like, that they enjoy my work, it always feels like there's something behind it because it means more to them because of who I am or because they like how I say rude things about, like, political parties. It feels like there's a, it feels like, it feels, oh, gosh, it feels, uh, important. Important? Yeah. I am happy because I like

Oh God, this is so gross gross, well-costs, I like who I am and I like what I'm doing and I want to be able to do more of it so I like regret that I sometimes have to like kiss up to people who I don't fully respect but I'm trying to do that less and I'm trying to make work and make people laugh and expose predators

not that I'm just trying to write funny, write funny stuff So that was Sophie. Thank you so much to her for coming on the show. You can keep up to date with her on Instagram at Sophie Dukebox. And if you're in Melbourne at the Comedy Festival in March and April, go and see the Sophie Duker show notes on that in the show notes. Ten minutes of exclusive extras with Sophie are available to you in the Insiders Club on Patreon. We'll talk about why resisting audience expectations can create richer comedy. We'll talk about new material as a playground for experimentation. and we will talk about, and this is fascinating, we'll talk about expanding your persona on stage and whether or not that matters more than a fitting in. So if you're in the Insiders Club, I'll see you there for the extra bits. See me live, Stuart Goldsmith.com slash comedy. And thank you, not only to Sophie, but thank you to producer Callum,

to Susie Lewis for the Logs, and Rob Smouton for the music. And thank you, as ever, to our insider producers. Hacker Spiller, Dave Powell, Simmons, Alan, Lucas, McClellan, Swarbrick, McCarroll, swaddle Wormel and James Burry. James, you've got the privilege of both names there. That's an error on my part, but nonetheless. Hello, James. How you doing? And a great big thank you to our two special insider executive producers.

Neil, can Callum do one this time, Peters? And Andrew, no, Callum, you can't, denn't. And also to the super secret one. Tiny post-amble at you coming at you in just a moment. But otherwise, I'll see you next week. And please do try to maintain that consistent sense. self that we all deserve. Okay, real talk. You know every so often, I come on here and I go, guys, big therapy revelation, and you probably think, because you're a compassionate person,

you think, Stu, this is too early to be talking about your latest therapy revelation. And also, you might be thinking, God, there's a lot of therapy revelations going on at the moment, and historically, and also you might be thinking, Stu, are you doing that thing of realizing a massive thing? it doesn't impact your life after a week or two. And then later you realise another massive thing and then you notice you're doing that and you think, what are all the isms that are co-morbidising? It's morbid time. It's comorbine time.

God, that's actually quite good. If only I was clever enough to retrofit that into a joke when morbid was an internet thing. Apologies if that's incomprehensible. But you might be thinking these revelations are coming suspiciously thick and fast and is that just because of the EMDR therapy or is it simply that you're a vapid pointless person who realizes something big about yourself every other week and then forgets about it well with all of that duly caveated i'm getting a phone call and i'm going to

pause and take it hello so we can't use that sadly even though it does illustrate the point which i was about to make which is that i have recently purchased an electric car you yes, I've got an EV, and it's a SCODA because I'm a humble guy, although that only works if you're my age, because I think SCODA is acknowledged to be quite good now, but maybe I'm falling into a trap of having been lied to about how cool SCODA's are. But I feel like a SCODA is quite a me car. I've got an EV, and I'm absolutely thrilled about it.

That wasn't what I was going to talk to you about. It was a sort of sub thing, and it's an enormous privilege to be able to get an EV, and I'm not taking it lightly, and I do need to get a charger outside my house, but you won't have heard that phone call because even though my bits of it were quite funny, well, you know, I don't know, it's not comedy genius, but it's quite a fun, lighthearted chat. Probably she's audible too,

and I don't think it's fair to record and podcast people when they're at work, when they don't know they're being recorded. In fact, it's almost certainly illegal. So let's get back to the main thing, which is, and I say this with, listen, I know all the therapy caveats apply. I've got quite puffy eyes at the moment because this morning I had, I think, one of the top three, oh my God, realisations about how my mind works.

And I think it's in everyone's best interest if I just leave it there for now. And almost certainly, this is not promotional material, but it'll probably work its way into the show in Leicester. And probably everything I do for the rest of my life, it really feels that way. How can I say something useful about this without splurging like some god-awful therapy-based, you know, therapy addled podcaster? I just real, oh, I can't, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I can do it. I've just real, I'll tell you, the very, the sketch of it is that I have had one basic

assumption about how I fit into the world, or how the world works, I should say, that I am completely aware of and that if you had asked me the right question, I could have just said, oh yes, I think that, but no one has ever asked me the right question. And so a thing that I knew in my bones, I've just said out loud for the first time, and obviously therefore to another person for the first time. And it's just absolutely massive. And I'm feeling really very destabilized. And then I did some yoga.

And then I had a brilliant podcast with Sarah Pascoe. That will be coming out soon. And what an episode that is as well. This, I mean, God, there's been, it's just been on a role recently between what's, duke and Pasco? What an incredible council of excellence that is. So I do feel calm, but I feel also a bit like, whoa, I'm going to have to sit down, shut up and really think about this, because I think this is a biggie. So I'm, with your kind permission, I'm going to go and do that.

And I'll get back to you later. And maybe, or never, maybe. Maybe. I mean, I will get back to you, but maybe not. about this. It's one of those ones where you go, what then for Stuart Goldsmith? Like, one of those ones where you go, but if, if X equals Y, what does that, what does that entail for the whole rest of my life? Like a big, a big, wuffy, weighty one. There's probably been eight or nine of these, but like spread out over the last 30 years. And this, guys, this could be the one.

Right then. Bye for now.