The Comment Section with Drew Afualo - ALWAYS A LITTLE BIT 40 Ft. Anna Konkle | Episode 229

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

https://www.youtube.com/@thecommentsectionwithdrew?sub_confirmation=1Anna Konkle is on the show this week!! Drew and Anna talk about the lasting legacy of her series Pen-15, getting swindled in a trading card exchange, dialup Internet, the anticipation of your first period, feet-nibbling fish, and so much more.Anna’s new book The Sane One is out now and can be bought wherever books are sold.Follow Anna:https://www.instagram.com/annaryankonkle/?hl=enFollow Drew:https://www.tiktok.com/@drewafualo on TikTokhttps://www.instagram.com/drewafualo on InstagramFollow the show:https://www.tiktok.com/@thecommentsection on TikTokhttps://www.instagram.com/thecommentsection/ on Instagram Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I love an underdog. Like I love being like underestimated and that had to be like, and that 10 years ago, it was like, oh, an influencer. And now they're like, it's an influencer. And they're here. And they're taking pictures. And you're right. And you're right.

Everyone and welcome back to another episode of the comment section show. Sorry, me, your babe. Everybody knows me. Who cares about me. On to the guest. Today we have the iconic, the legendary, the hilarious Anna Conkel. Woo! Welcome to the show queen.

Thanks for having me. Oh my God. I'm honored to have you. I'm honored to be here. My sister actually introduced me to Penn 15. I have to get that out of the way. Really? Yeah, one of the funniest shows ever.

Oh, thank you. Congrats on that. Thank you. The whole concept of it. Hilarious. It's a crazy concept. It's really crazy we got to make it. And it's been such a like iconic show that I think now younger, like Gen Z people are starting

to clip a ton on TikTok. Have you noticed that? I have. Yeah. About a year ago, because, you know, before that it was like just I'm 39. 39 year olds coming up to me being like, oh my God, that was so my time, like, whatever. And then about a year ago, 12-year-olds would be like quoting me saying crazy stuff. And I'd be like, your mom's right there.

You shouldn't hear you that. Yeah. Yeah. And being like, you're on TikTok. I mean, like, it's also a show. Yeah. I was like, I was really curious, like, if you've seen a lot of the edit. I've seen countless really popular edits of you and Maya from the show.

I will say that there, I discovered. because I'm not, I'm like still discovering TikTok, which is embarrassing to say. I'm exploring. But like sadcore, right? Is that what it is? Well, I've seen a lot of those, but I've seen a lot of just like love like between two women, like friends, best friends, like platonic love more than anything. I will say that the TikTok videos, most of them that I have seen and especially the emotional

ones like make me cry. Yeah, they make me cry too. Yeah. I feel like I'm there right with you. Yeah. And something that I wasn't expecting to just. be, you know, gushy about it for a second is like the comment section with teens being like, this is what I'm going through right now.

And I thought I was alone. And I can't, you know, Maya is going through it too or Anna's going through a two. That really broke me. Yeah. And made me feel like, oh, wow, this has gone farther than we thought it would. Right. It's really cool. And it's just surreal.

Yeah. Yeah. For generations. These new generations aren't like, ew, they're old. Some of them, actually, some of the comments are like, why did he look? many wrinkles. Like, can she get a nose job? They're like, why is there so much older looking than the other kids?

It's like, because we're not kids. That's kind of the joke. But then they get roasted. Yeah. So it's fine. So it all works out. Do you know what you're watching? Yeah, it's nature.

She probably research it. Look it up, idiot. Right. I'm like, heart. Yeah. You secretly liking. Me too for my burner. Oh, really?

I need a burner. Yeah, I need a burner. I'm just like, heart, whoops, nope. You're threatening to heart. Yeah. Okay, well, just to kind of backpedal a little from Penn 15, I do want to talk about just acting as a whole, how you got into acting, like, what drew you to it? Like, was it something that you were always like, I think I'm going to be an actor, or was it something you kind of fell into? I started doing community theater in Massachusetts where I grew up, I was probably in second grade.

And I just like, yeah, I loved. I was like a flower in Alice in Wonderland. And I was like always getting these terrible parts. And I was so into it. and yeah I was totally a theater nerd and eventually I started auditioning for commercials in Boston. Oh nice. Did not, nothing happened there.

Just kept going in, grinding. And yeah, and like before that, and I loved to sing. I would, my dad would play the guitar and I'd sing and it was, but that was sort of it. It wasn't an idea of like, you know, you can do this professionally or anything. And, you know, I didn't really see that in my town growing up. Were your parents like artists, were they super supportive of you pursuing art? Or were they just kind of like, whatever you want to do, I'll be there. Yeah, they were always super supportive.

They loved the performances. I do think in retrospect that that was part of me, like the moth to light being like, love me. You know, and just wanting that and feeling like, yeah, feeling seen through it, I think was a part of it. But I also, you know, there was a lot of like discord in my. house and another way I dealt with it was just like singing you know my parents would be like screaming downstairs and I would do my own screaming which was belting to Celine Dion in my bedroom and I don't know all those things combined I just I really loved it and my parents were sort of like secret artists I think where my dad my mom wrote a lot of poetry my dad always talked about you know

a different career as like a carpenter that he had had before and then they both sort of went towards for me like corporate life more where my dad became like a human resource manager for 7-11 yeah my as you do as one does my my mom was an RN nurse and and they were and she had multiple jobs at certain points so they were just like grinding there was a lot of like living paycheck to paycheck and I think watching them really both in different ways not like their jobs yeah there's a lot of note taking on my end of being like okay don't do that mom's always wishing she could like like write poetry professionally. How do you like, you know, chase what your soul's going to be happy with versus an idea of a life? Yeah. And then I kind of hyper fixated on that in a way that probably

isn't totally beneficial, but worked out. Yeah, I mean, sometimes. Thank you. Yeah. In some way. Yeah. What about you? How do you like? Yeah. I think like to an extent I was like kind of like you where I knew I loved attention. Yeah. But in a very specific way. Like I love to perform. Yep. I love to entertain.

And like I was a very like, like, loquacious child. So I love to talk and I love to like tell stories. And even now I love to exaggerate and like, ooh, I love a captive audience. You know when you're telling a story and you have the room off that feeling? I was chasing it. Have you done stand up?

I have tried stand up. I'm so bad at stand up. I bet you're great. Now, I was going to ask if there were other art forms that you tried. Like, I know you're a theater nerd at heart. Love that. Many, every single one of my actor friends. Did you do improv for a while?

You know, we did a little bit in school, but really comedy came out of me and Maya doing experimental theater and college. Oh, wow. And then doing like characters. Okay. So we were half taking ourselves really seriously studying Shakespeare and I don't know why I quoted Shakespeare. You know, Shakespeare, whatever. And doing like, yeah, and doing.

just nerdy theater stuff. And then we both were doing experimental theater and you're sort of writing for yourself and directing, but it can be really self-serious or it can just take on a really like comedic bent. And so we started doing a bunch of characters and they happened to be funny and then started writing for ourselves. And yeah. So awesome.

But I think the like other side of that is when I'm doing something that's serious, I'll just sort of like add lines. They're like you're not, this isn't comedy. Like you can't just like. I'm like, but comedies, you're like, you're just like, comedy's in it. You're just adding to the scene, right? Well, that's true. Yeah. Anything good.

Yeah. You can make anything just a little bit funny. Yeah, and you should. I mean, like, yeah, the best, the best movies that you cry at, you're laughing at too. Yeah, I agree. Most of them. I was going to ask to if you did anything serious. Like, like, if you ever liked really serious.

theater too because I've had some friends who are really great improv people but they're like oh but I would love to do like the Shakespeare theater and I'm like well that's not funny that's that's real serious theater yeah yeah I was never great at Shakespeare I I definitely like when I went to college wanted just to do serious stuff like comedy was not on on my mind but I think I didn't realize I didn't realize how much it was a part of my life my mom's very funny my dad super funny but they i don't know it wasn't framed as like in a genre you know what i mean it was like this is just how we are yeah this is yeah this is just something fun i do and and if i if you're not funny like not in words but the vibe was like if you can't make my dad laugh or if you can't roast him or if you can't like you're not getting his respect right you know what i mean so it's just sort of learned of like that's true yeah you just have to keep up yeah i've talked i've talked about that before too because my schick obviously online is like making fun of men and like that's how I built my

my platform right from the from the bones and ashes of men who hate me thank God amen yeah bye creamate them yeah and I've got I've gotten asked a lot about like how I got good at roasting how I got good at being funny our meal's ready I've also said the same thing I'm like in the home I got good in the home like my parents are like I'm someone too so I'm Polynesian and like it's making fun of each other and like roasting each other has been like a very prominent thing in my culture and in my family. So like I had to, I honestly had no choice but to get good. Yeah. Get good quickly. And was it put in a way of like, oh, you're valued if you're funny or is it just what you're

shown? I think it's just what you're shown. I think it's also just like it's like, again, the captive audience thing. It's like I won the room. Like if we're in a battle of wits and I won the room. And it's my family who like, my family does not laugh at things that are not funny. So like, you're not going to give that. Yeah, I got a real tough audience at home too. Okay, okay. And we like, I joke it, well, I will pivot really quick when you mentioned community theater. Yeah.

I recently went my little brother who I'm, I'm 30, going to be 31. My little brother is 21, going to be 22. And so he recently joined community theater, which like, we were so happy for him because he's always been so imaginative. And we were like, like, my mom has been telling him, you should join community theater. And he's like, nah. And then he recently decided to join. He was starred in a play. He started in high school musical.

And he played two different roles. He played Troy and Zeke, like on different days. Sorry. Yeah, big shoes. Wow. But I went, we went and watched it. Like, literally my family was so, my brother is the most colorful, like, character. Like, he is such a specific kind of person.

So he's hilarious, unintentionally and intentionally. That's sometimes the best one. I'm telling you. Like, and honestly, the best people to be in show business, I would say, because Oh, totally. Nothing you say is like. ever affecting them. Like, yeah, that's, I mean.

That's seriously anyway. Well, but what's funny is my mom, so my dad was like more the roaster. My mom was unintentionally funny. Yeah. But she was super sensitive. Is. Oh, yeah. Like now talked about it, but it's like she would get really like sad and kind of like

little girl a little bit like if we, if we were like, oh my God, mom's voice is bad. Like it's mean, you know what I mean? But we'd be like, can you stop singing? And she'd be like, I love to sing. You know what I mean? So that dynamic was really hard. That is so funny. Your dad,

your dad just, which is why they divorced. And then I later had to like, after the divorce, I have like no one in my corner to be like, isn't mom fucking crazy? And then I had to just like go off on my own and just roast her. And then that didn't work.

And eventually I was like, and that is why they divorced. So ultimately. Yeah, no, they were not. It was not a good fit. Yeah. Yeah. It's a mismatch.

I agree with that too though in this of like wanting to be like and a little of this guy and then being like oh god it's gonna give everything well and I feel like I'm a mix unfortunately like I found in the Penn 15 editing room that like there were times when we're editing and like well that part's funny that's not funny and everyone's like that's the funniest part of the scene and I was like oh I didn't mean I what am I doing that's funny yeah and they're like she guys hate me

so everyone's making fun at me everyone's laughing that's funny when I try really hard and I'm really authentic and loving. That's funny. That's hilarious to you. Yeah, it's so funny. Ha, ha, ha. So, like, speaking of Penn 15 again, like, how did the idea of Penn 15 come about, like, how was that born between the two of you?

Yeah. Well, Maya and I, after, so we met junior year of college. We were studying experimental theater, and we were, like, watching each other do funny characters. I wanted to write a web series for us. It makes me sound so old because they were, like, new. You're real, though. that's how broad city got picked up too yeah yeah there were yeah there were a few few that we were like yeah

they had made that and it was amazing and and so yeah i would had done someone else's web series and i was like there's this new thing maya and we could do it too and all you have to do whatever and so she was living we both went to school in new york but she had moved back to l.a she's from here and i was still in new york i was going through a breakup with my boyfriend really dramatic and i was like i'm coming to l. were making this web series and I packed my car and drove across the country and stayed on our couch for a while. And we did Kickstarter. We raised like $7,000 or something like that.

And we shot maybe seven episodes, I think. Damn, off seven grand? Yeah, period. Yeah. I mean, it was shady. Like, we were going at Goodwill and getting the costumes and then returning them. Sorry. Had to do what you had to do.

At the time. We make mistakes. We grow. We've grown. They've changed their return policy. probably because of us but that's neither here nor there. No, they caught on after one.

I was like, okay, I'll keep it. I'll keep the 12 men's shirts. I wanted them, you're right. And so, yeah, we made this web series and every episode was about, like, it was a different pilot of a reality show, a different reality show that didn't get picked up. So we got to do all of these fun characters.

And then, like, girls had come out at that time. And so it happened to be a moment in the industry where we were being taken seriously just for the fact, ironically, that we were making our own stuff and starring in it. I think because there had been that blueprint that it worked. So thank you, Lena Dunham. For real. They were like, okay, what do you got? And we really didn't have much. But there was one executive who we met with and she said something like, because I think we were talking a lot about like, well, our agent thinks this and our agent thinks that.

She was like, your web series is so fucking weird. Stop listening to your agent. Right. Like, what do you love? What would you love to make that everybody else hated that you loved? And we immediately were like playing rejects and is the thing and playing like rejects in middle school. You know, and talking about all of these stories that we have that feel like inappropriate to talk about. Like we haven't been able to see it on, you know, Lizzie McGuire.

And I'm not going to give it to a real 13-year-old. to do this for real yeah yeah we want to do it yeah and and slowly it became we started with an idea about a cult and that went away we knew we wanted to play 13 and eventually it became yeah we'll be you know best friends in the year 2000 um two rejects like barely getting by surrounded by real 13 year olds and um everyone thought we were insane and they were like most people not everybody and there was also the question of like that's illegal how are you going to how are you going to do that. Right. But it was yeah so it took a really long time to get made but we got to make it and it's very and thank God. Thank God. Well and it's it is one of those things where you like you have

something so new and so like groundbreaking that it's like it takes like a very specific and special person to be like you know what this is worth making for sure which is the worst part I feel like of pitching and yeah trying to get stuff greenlit and it's so I don't know how you felt with this but like having your friend next to you when you have an insane idea and you both laughing at the same moments and kind of cheering each other on was very necessary. Like I don't think either of us would have had the courage because it did take bravery to go in and have all the dudes in the room being like, I don't get it. And being like, well, we do, you know.

Right. And doing that over and over and over until we really believed ourselves and convinced ourselves that this was like this had to happen one way or another. You know, sometimes that only happens with like, you know, your friend or your sister or your right, whatever. You're like ride or die cheerleader. Absolutely. It's like that lady Gaga quote and she's like 99 people in a room. You only need one to believe in you. I love that. And thank God if it's your bestie. Like thank fucking God. Like I'm curious how how do you like writing versus starring in it? Like do you

like writing more? Do you like them differently in different ways as opposed to acting actually? I think it, well, doing both at the same time, because we were show running and writing pen, directing a bit of it, and then starring it, like, wrecked me. Like, it was the best thing creatively ever that I could have ever imagined. But it was, like, 16 hour days for years. You're, like, in a bind, you know. You're, like, adding hairs to your face every morning. And then you're, like, rewriting and telling, you know, like, can we change the camera to this angle and whatever? were like, you're 13.

Yeah. Feeling kind of, honestly, like having to convince people still, I think, because of the nature of the characters we were playing that we were in charge, that was like a constant weird thing. Really? Yeah. You're like, you know I'm not actually 13, right? Yeah, I think it was psychological. You know what I mean? I think people would be like, are you talking to me?

You know? Because you've just been like doing like a crazy dance or you've just been like, I don't know. looking at your vagina and like you're just you're it's such a it's such it's a it's a it's a show filled with such infantile and not infantile um confessions right that there's just a level to it I think that when the scene was you know done that people would be like forget that we were writing yeah when you go get charged to some extent you go sit in the director's chair and they're like little girls are not allowed here exactly exactly You have to go to school on set.

Exactly. So, yeah, that was, that was weird. And it was just, yeah, it was very, very, very long days for many, many years. And also there's the nature of, like, you're writing it, and then you're in pre-production, and then you're shooting it. And then you're in editing. And then you're in press because now it's out and then you're back to the writer's room. You know, whereas if you're just acting, like, you're going to get a little bit of a break or whatever. And so, but I really love writing.

and I love acting too but writing is a little bit less stressful to me. Oh, that's fair. Yeah. I think do you like writing your own stuff or do you like writing for other people? Like, do you have a preference? I'm so curious. I'm starting to venture into writing so I was going to ask you that. Selfishly I'm asking for me.

Well, what are you writing? I feel like I read. Well, currently right now I'm working actually on a show with my sister who's over there and Amanda who's my producer. we're actually writing a show together that we are pitching or in the process of pitching. But it's so exciting. I know it's very exciting. It's like babies first time writing. Baby's first time writing.

Baby's first time writing for TV. It's going to be great. And it has been like really fucking fun and like very creative. Yeah, it's like it's scratching a completely different itch. I didn't even know I had because I feel like I have such a was I really want to get into acting. That's like my newer thing that I've been working on the past year. So like moving into writing because I've written a book. and I'm writing fiction books currently,

but like writing for TV feels so daunting to me because I was like, because I love comedy on TV and I love watching TV and I love consuming. So I feel like I was making it real grand in my head to the point where I'm like,

I can't even venture that mountain. Did you feel like that with the book? If you don't mind me asking. Sorry, I don't mean a term that you're like, this is, I'm asking the questions. I'm like, so I have a few. That reminds me. That reminds me.

Honestly, no, with the book felt different. And I think that was maybe the weird distinction in my head because like the first the first book I've already put out was like memoir slash self-help, which like I was very like adamant about like I didn't want it to be too memoir-e because I'm in my 30s. So it's like I really need to live a little bit more life to start like for real doing memoir. But it was a lot of self-help based stuff because of that's like my platform that I've grown and everything about like desentering men and confidence and that kind of thing. So that one felt very hard for me in the sense that it feels hard to be vulnerable publicly Because in the book I wrote about a lot of really traumatizing personal experiences that have kind of shaped me And so like that was the only part that really felt difficult and then the fiction writing is really fun for me Because it's like it involves world building it involves like banter and like writing different characters and colors and that kind of thing

but for TV I feel like I'm like writing for a completely different room and audience. I don't know. Like it feels so daunting to me comparatively. I think I felt and now in retrospect, I definitely, I think imposter syndrome is something like most artists deal with to some extent. I think although I heard someone else recently say that that that's like something as women that we've actually been told and it's like dudes aren't saying that, which is very interesting. That's a good point.

You know, I'm dealing with imposter syndrome. Although I have heard friends. But like, I don't know. Anyway. There's just a different. Ours is for real. Maybe, maybe, yeah. But like, yeah, with in the theater scene in New York, like when I went to theater school, I was, I was, I really struggled with that, I think.

And feeling like it was hard for me to hear my own perspective. I didn't realize how much I was posing, how much I was just trying to be like my idea of, like, elite theater, like, high level art, whatever. Yeah. And then moving to L.A. was such a moment for me on many levels, but one of which being like, I don't know, seeing people writing in coffee shops, something about that, like, blew my mind.

Like, they just bought final draft. They just are doing, it's like accessible. Right. And it's the same in New York, but something about it just like turned a light on in a different way and of going like, and there was more overtness here versus in New York. about people being like, yeah, I just want to sell a show.

Yeah. In a way that I actually appreciated where in New York it was like, I'm making the best thing that's ever existed. You know what I mean? And I'm not doing it for money. Right, exactly. For art. Well, right.

That's exactly it. Like going to college was like, I could live on a mattress on the floor. If I'm making art, I'll be happy. And then three years later, I'm working 80 hours a week. And I'm like, I'm exhausted. And not doing theater, by the way. I'm waiting tables. I'm fucking.

I'm depressed. I'm out. Like I thought I could. I can't. I'm out. Right. And but it was like, and then going to L.A. and people being like, yeah, I just want to sell a fucking procedural, you know? And I was like, okay. Yeah. But it felt like permission. I don't know. It's probably sort of a sad mission statement. But I started to go like, I can make something bad too. Like, no, that's such a good way of looking at it. Why do I? Who am I that I'm like, I have to make the best thing. Like what if I just want to fucking have the privilege of being paid to make something creative? That's so true. That is such a good point.

And how many things, I mean, first of all, it's all subjective. Right. So the thing that I think is garbage. Yeah. Somebody else's beacon. Right. And there's room for all of it. And we need all of it.

Yeah. Bad art is also important. Bad art is important. Yeah, it is. One person's bad art is another person's everything. Exactly. Exactly. And you're so right about it being subjective, which is what I've been kind of working on through the audition process and everything, too.

Yes. Oh, my God. I want to hear all about it. Yes. Very like I mean obviously I started doing it after I became someone even though yeah You were someone before too. You're right. This does not add value to my life.

You're right. The money and attention is just a nice plus. It's just a nice plus. Yeah. Just a cherry. Yeah. Nothing more. Yeah.

I feel like when I started doing I, I've always wanted to act like that that is really. Yeah. Just when I was in college, I just never thought it was an option. I like for me and just like how. I look and everything. I'm like, I know I'm not ugly, but I know no one really looks like me on TV. I know that too. Like, that's like how I would think a lot. So I feel like when I was a kid, you're so gorgeous, by the way, but I know you know that. Thank you. I'm just saying it. Thank you. I appreciate that, Anna. As are you. Um, but I really do think that I was like,

that would be awesome, but I need to have like a real job probably. And then maybe. Like, that's what I would think about it. Like I, you had a plan. Yeah. So I was like, and I'm a Virgo. So I feel like that was another thing of me like safety netting before I even dared to dream. I would like think really big but I'd be like well I need to be logical about how I get there like that's kind of how I would like map it. Yeah. Wow. How true to like the map have you been if you don't mind me asking? Not at all. Honestly like because my initial plan in college I've majored in journalism and communication so my initial plan because I grew up an athlete was to work in sports and I wanted to do like broadcast journalism. Wow. But I really like I wanted to do sports commentating like I would have loved to do that.

I think at the time, but really what I wanted to do was follow like athletes and do like long form narrative storytelling. So I wanted to do like, you know, when you see like those really long pieces written on people in like Vanity Fair, like that was the kind of writing I wanted to do was like, see who they were off the field, see who they were in their personal lives, like that kind of thing. Because I enjoy spending time with people getting to know them. So that was kind of like what I really wanted to do. But I was like, well, I could do the journalism route. I can learn how to talk on camera and edit and cameras and lighting and sound and all of that stuff. enough right and I didn't sit any of the difference yeah yeah you told them what to do yeah and I'm using my journalism degree you are yeah so I'm getting hard truths in this chair yes what do you want to know

and I I think like that was my way of getting on camera like I was like okay well hopefully that will lead to maybe on camera and then maybe I'll be so charming and awesome that I'll do other things like that's what I would think yeah and then I ended up graduating from college really hard to get a job obviously and then I did PR for a while, which is funny because that's like the enemy of journalism in a lot of ways. So I kind of PR trained myself, low-key, by doing PR for a while. And then I got a job at the NFL, which they hate when I mention it, but it's true. And who's they? The NFL.

Why? Oh, because they fired me and they don't like when I talk about it. Okay, well, you worked at the NFL. And they fired me. Yeah, and they fired you. And they fired me. And we're talking about it. And they have, like, legitimately told people that have told my team, like, we really

don't like when she says that. I'm like, I don't like that you give people CTE. So what are we supposed to do about that? You don't all get what we want. Yeah, I don't like that you hire abusers. Now what? Like, I guess we both have things we don't like about each other. But anyhow, I was like, and I am not angry about it anymore. And listen, there is no hard feelings. Okay, well, now I want to ask so many questions. But I won't. I won't. Please do. Well, what happened? Oh, when I got fired. Well, what happened is essentially like, well, not that. Yeah, I was like, oh. I was like, honestly, how inappropriate of you.

Fair. I brought it up. But I honestly got fired because what they told me at the time was that they were letting me go. Like every time I was like, so you're firing me. They would correct me and be like, no, we're letting you go. And I'm like, who gives a fuck about the verbiage? Like I no longer work here, correct? Right. And I wish I had your strength.

Oh, I'd be like, absolutely. What time do you need me out? And you what's funny. It's at the time, like the day before that, my manager who hated my. guts. I told her I would like to transfer teams. Like I had told her that the day before she fired me. Because I was like this isn't working for me. I feel like you fucking hate me and you make it really hard for me to do my job well. And what's ironic is my job there at the time was to grow an account from scratch to specifically target women. Turns out I'm pretty good at

that. Yeah. If they had only listened to me, wow, where could they have been? But you know what? worked out because when they fired me though the reasoning was just like this this position no longer works in this capacity like we don't need it anymore that was kind of what they told me all the women died yeah or i've done something i don't know if you know we're about to uh that's not funny mind you when i like was like about to get fired unbeknownst to me right she slacked me and was like can you come to the conference room so we can finish our conversation from yesterday about me transferring teams. And I said, sure. To brought my work laptop to the meeting, there's a woman in HR. I'm like thinking, oh, okay, we're going to talk about transferring. She goes, we're letting you go.

I go, so no notes for this meeting. Yeah, laptop shut. Like, I guess you guys don't need me to take okay, perfect. So then they let me go in that particular fashion. And what I have not really talked about before is that when they let me go, they like, again, told me they're laying me off. Right. So that would mean that I qualify for unemployment. Right. Because it was out of my control. Right.

And they told me this, right? And had me signed paperwork. Okay. And I was like, okay. And then I left. And I was really proud of myself because I didn't cry because at that point I hated that job. And I was being like mentally tortured at that job.

It was really, really bad. And so then I waited until I got to my car. And something petty that I did was like, they were like, they were like, make sure. you return your parking pass. I didn't because I was that mad. I was like, I'm fucking keep it. Was it paper or laminated? No, it was laminated.

Wow. That's why they needed it back. And I said, no, you guys are the NFL. You can reprint a new one. So then I left. They probably have a laminator in the house. Let's be honest. And I was like so obviously deeply upset.

I had never been fired like that before. It also just threw my entire life off the track. I like, I had a plan. Yeah, I had a plan. And I was working up the courage to leave. But like, I was like, I have bills to be. pay, I have things to do, I can't, like, just quit my job. Like, and so they gave me no choice, told me no to come back.

And so then because I, I qualified for unemployment, when I tried to file, like, a couple days later, looking through my paperwork, I, they wrote that I was terminated for negligence. And I didn't know that when they made me sign the papers, which is like, what? Like, I was so, I was very upset. So then I, I called. And at this point, I was, like, getting like my mojo back a little bit because that had, nothing like that had ever happened to me. So my confidence really took a hit, which was like rare for me, pretty confident person.

But like it was very hard for me at the time. And I was like, okay, so I had to call the office. And then they were like trying to argue with. As soon as I said, I like, I want to talk to someone about you guys wrongfully terminating me. And then all of a sudden they were like, we'll call you back. Then they called me back lawyers on the phone. And then they're trying to argue with me about the verbiage being used. And I was like, you guys are not going to argue with me about this.

Like you told me what? happened like verbally you corrected me multiple fucking times throughout the meeting and I even said like I was like I just need to know if you guys are going to contest unemployment or not that's all I need to know because if that's the case I'm going to hire lawyer and they were very like immediately as soon as I said that they went listen if you want to tell people that you got laid off that's fine with us tell people I remember distinctly them saying that because I said on the phone I literally went oh don't worry I'm going to tell everyone what happened to me and at the time I was not this.

I was just saying that shit. I made it on my promise. And I was like, and one thing is never sleep on me. I am coming back. So I true, they were not counting on me getting famous in any I mean, that's probably not. Yeah, most companies are like, they really thought they were going to never hear from me ever again, which granted I haven't reached out to them at all.

Like they, like at all. But as soon as I started doing this, so on top of that, like basically, did they let me go and threw me off track they they were going and like try to ruin my life like i had no money i had no i had nowhere to get money from i had to apply for new jobs and then at that point covid it hit so like right after i like got approved for it then then covid hit but if i didn't call they would have did you didn't get approved yes i did thank god and they would have dicked me over on purpose because they don't care about me obviously right i was working over 20 hours a week which is technically not part time even though i was under part time no health insurance no nothing

So like it really was one of those things where I was like, this wasn't meant for me. Like clearly it was. And I was so unhappy. Yeah. I felt so not creatively fulfilled in any way. I felt not listened to. And it was like making me feel like I had no real talent or anything to offer, which that job is hard to get with no connection like anywhere in there.

It thrives off depotism like most show business stuff, entertainment sports, one and the same. So it was very like, you know, I would say that was like my early Saturn return. and I had like a pretty early one at the time because I think it was 24 at the time. So it really worked out exactly the way it was supposed to. And then now I do this. And as I started telling people, oh, I was working at the NFL when I got fired

and then COVID hit and then I started doing this. And I started telling people one of the reasons they told me they were firing me in the meeting because it's true was that I was incapable of growing a following. And they were just kind of assumed that was part of the deal. So that's why they were cutting that position. But turns out I'm pretty good at growing a following. You just had to listen to me.

Wow. But thank God they didn't. It all worked out. Yeah, no, everything happened as it was supposed to. But I can't help but wonder what your pitch was for them. Not that, I mean, it was a gazillion years ago, but to grow their following and to like bring women more into the folds. I tried. Yeah.

I was like, even when I did the interview, because their interview process is crazy. Like I had to do like, I had to do three rounds of interviews. Wow. And the last one was in person, but the first two were virtual. One was a phone call. One was on Zoom. The third one's in person. Wow.

This is all pre-COVID too. but like one of the interviews they do on the phone is they just test football IQ. So they literally just test like whether or not you actually know anything about football. And I don't know if that's specific to women. I can't speak to it. Wow. Great question. I bet Reddit can.

I'm not sure. Yeah. I should go look at. Yeah. Well, I did not do a football IQ test. Like so they asked me a lot about the generic logistics of football and then they asked me more specifics. It's making me nervous. Because I was like a test.

Yeah. So they asked me about. players they asked me about storylines they asked me about trades like they asked me about all kinds of stuff mind you I knew a lot I know a lot about football obviously I know a lot about football especially at the time because I was like studying at school but then there's layers of football that I don't understand because I don't consume it in the same weird way that men do who love football right so I don't absorb it like it's me so there's certain things I would probably miss because

I'm not super into it however my man is a former football player played in college like could have gone pro that kind of thing so he's played football his whole life and watched football he doesn't love it like weirdos but he's just he knows a lot about it so the night before my interview i literally wrote down like a million things like i asked him about like storylines i asked him about interesting things to say like i asked him about opinions so technically i cheated but you know what i did it and it worked like i was like i don't know if that's cheating that you remembered it one thing That's how we studied for test. I'm so you asked him.

He told you, you remembered it. There you go. And one thing about women is they are resourceful. Yeah. So I literally, I remember on that call, I was blowing their minds with the show saying. It was literally from him. Like he was giving me all these little nuggets. Great.

I was just using them all. And I literally was like, this is me working the system. Yeah. Turns out it was for not. But it ended up working out anyways. Yeah. But I was like being so resourceful. I was like, you know, I know someone who knows.

a lot about football. I'm just going to copy what he says. I feel like you'll get something. They'll be like, can you be a consultant or can you? Right. Whatever. You would think. I feel like I feel like I'm like enemy number one to them probably. But the NBA loves me so that worked out. Great. Yeah. I was like, yeah, I guess I'll love basketball now. I know more about basketball than I do about football. Oh, that's not. You're from Boston. Yeah. Was your dad a big sports guy or your mom? Not really. But my brother, who's 11 years older, loved the Celtics, loved the Red Sox. Oh, nice. Yeah.

I remember he, I was in first grade and he was like the coolest person ever to me. And he, you know, collected cards. Did you collect like any? I didn't know. That missed me. It's a little, it's a little nerdy. Yeah. Like that's sort of the headline for my family is like a little nerdy.

And so I was like got a little binder and whatever. I didn't have any. And he gave me this like. rookie Larry Bird card. Oh, nice. And then I brought it into my class. And for whatever reason, my class was first, second, and third graders. And a third grader had, like, four very vibrantly colored X-Men cards.

Okay. And they were like, I'll try it. Like, four for that one. And I was like, absolutely. Wow, you're all idiot. Yeah. You just got the worst deal. My brother was very upset.

And I went back and I was like, I'm going to need that back. So here's the thing. He fucking wouldn't give it back to me. No way. Because he swindled you. Yeah, you know what he was here? He was like four of the end. I was in first grade and he was in third.

That's wrong. Damn, his dad was probably like, where'd you get that? It's just framed. Yeah. They're living off your spoils. That idiot. Okay, to pivot back, what were you said you were doing like 80 hours a week when you were trying, like you were in school and stuff? Were you serving or did you have a lot of jobs?

Yeah, it was, well, yeah, I would be a nanny. and then I waited tables and that was the main thing like I was waiting tables maybe 40 hours a week. Damn. Yeah. And then I would be doing like weird downtown theater like in very kind of on the nose like freezing warehouses and like just like making art. You know like shirtless men on leashes barking and I would just be like, you know, I don't know what the fuck I was doing. But that was my. And then it was like rehearsals and then you'd be auditioning and on actors access.

and, you know, getting new fucking headshots, spending all the money that you made waiting tables on headshots that for some reason were $6,000 and then stapling your resume on the back and that whole thing, that grind, and then working brunch, you know what I mean? And then going out. Yeah, all at the same time. All at the same time. That was like early 20s in New York. And it was, but it's like, I don't know, you look back.

I wonder if you feel like this at all. in some of those earlier times, like the web series or it's just, it's, you can't, you can't get them back. Right. That grind time. Especially in the exciting about it. Yeah. Like, especially in a world prior to social media, like for real, like the way it is now and the way it controls a lot of things. Yeah.

I was going to ask you that question, like as an artist, like you've been an artist and a decorated one for a while. So like have you noticed like a huge shift in terms of like the integration of social media with entertainment? Do you like it? Are you kind of like averse to it depending? Yeah. I'm curious your thoughts. I am personally overwhelmed by it. I mean, I know that's not the craziest thing to say.

No, but that's fair. Yeah. I have really struggled with art in general and being an actor of like how to hear myself. And what I was kind of speaking to earlier of like that need that I have and that kind of started as a kid to like have clapping or to have. you know, some sort of validation around art, me, I'm the vessel making the art is like self-esteem based. And so it became really hard for me to and like going back to being like, well, why can't I make something bad? That was a revelation for me. I'm going like, I don't want to keep like trying to be other people. Right. You know, but sometimes it's been hard for me in my

life to even know when I'm doing that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so social media has like the same energy for me. Right. Where it's like it, of course you want more likes. Of course you want more hearts. Of course you want more followers. Of course I, I. And when I say you like I.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a natural feeling to have when you're bombarded with it constantly. Yeah, but I don't. And it's so a part of our business. It's so a part of what we do. Yeah. But the irony and the like the part that I could unpack forever and your experience is so

fascinating. but of like there's no separation between business and personal it's all meant to look the same and the more that it's meant to look the same the more followers and success in your business that you're going to have so how does one have a healthy boundary and everyone has different needs I feel like mine is quite strong of like needing for my own mental health and sense of self understanding like when does me as an as a as a as a as a as a as a product yeah that's not a product yeah that's not trying to sell my voice my face my brain my right body my whatever totally to the business part of me that's like okay now I'm stepping into the day we're like yeah

this is my face saying the lines and I am being paid for that but I'm not going to let that be my whole identity because I'm more than when you know whether it's good or bad when someone saying you're like you're great you're amazing and you know if you're at the height of your career and I'm not you're not that great in that moment and when someone doesn't care about me and they're like you know oh she hasn't done something in a while or whatever the narrative is like that's not real either who I am isn't defined by either of those things no yeah but social media makes it so confusing for me yeah and it makes it hard to discern right and it feels like that is an intentional part of yeah how one does like super well on social media is blending those things and I feel

like to have a healthy personal life you probably have to be really good at um knowing how to balance and separate those yeah like compartmentalized that's a question mark though like I don't know how does one do it how it like it it seems I I have a lot of reverence for it yeah because I find it a little bit crippling. So the people that are able to do it and like have their business and like have their art and have and I'm sure there's some natural blending that happens but like how do you do it? No, you're right. You're right. And honestly, you're not, that is not an uncommon feeling either because I've talked to a lot of people who are only went up the traditional way and are still obviously doing the, doing the damn thing like really still performing and entertaining. But they they've all

asked me like, how do you like do that and try to. still be a performer, like in some regard. Like, you still do auditions and shit and you also have to do this. Well, yeah, never mind that, like, what you're just having to create every day and all the time. Yeah, to, like, keep your own production company. Yeah, keep the wheels turning kind of deal, which is fair because it's like, it has completely shifted, like, the dynamics of Hollywood.

Like, it's completely flipped. Which is exciting. I love an underdog. Like, I love being, like, underestimated. And that 10 years ago, it was like, oh, an influencer, another. They're like, it's an influencer and they're here and they're taking pictures. And you're right. And you're right.

No, that's so true. And I think that's like even for someone like me who came up as a dickhead on the internet. Like I really have said before like the beauty of the integration to me lies in representation. So it's like it's open the door for people of many different shapes and sizes and sexualities and identities to be able to be someone. Like there are people who look like me and sound like me and say all the things I do would not have made it going the traditional route because it's just not what people see. That's not what they typically cast. It's one of those things where like it has opened the door for a lot of marginalized people to have their shot, like to be able to be seen and perceived in terms of like entertainment. Like they're like I actually can do this too. And like I don't look like what you typically cast, but I also can do the same things. It's like that's the beauty in it to me. the horror in it to me is what you were describing, which is like this complete lack of sense of self that gets lost. And like when I started doing this,

obviously I did not plan on this ever happening. So when it did, I was like aggressively normal before. I like I had a normal job. I paid bills. I like, you know, lived paycheck to paycheck. Like I was doing the normal things that you do when you're in your early 20s.

And so like doing this and like having grown up on the internet or like the right when social. media like launched for real. I've always been a voyeur. So like seeing it now and then getting all of this exposure so quickly, so fast at a rapid rate was a lot to deal with. And it was a real like, I don't know how to describe it. It felt like almost like a new version of myself. Like it's like now I distinguish between like me before this and me after. Really? That's so interesting. Yeah, because it feels so different. Like the person I was before TikTok happened for me is not. not who I am now.

And I don't really know if that's good or bad. I feel like maybe one just exists in a different timeline. Like that's what I've told myself is like, but I always tell myself I know I would have been happy though if I, if this didn't happen to me. I know I still would have been happy. And like, and that brings me peace and comfort in choosing to do this because I'm like,

I think like the what ifs would have eaten me alive. Obviously this was my dream. So I was like, yeah, obviously I want to do this like for a living. What a joy and a privilege. Like I'm sure you feel that way too about art. Definitely.

Like getting paid to. make art for a living is a dream that very few people can say they've done. So like that felt very lucky. But it was yeah, the boundaries thing is huge. Like I did I did have to learn that. I was pretty strict about boundaries initially because obviously what I did was not I wasn't doing vlogs. I wasn't doing like spend the day with me like when people like get ready with me to go to the store. Like I that was me doing ASMR by the way. You're like what's she doing? I just had to explain. I got it. Yeah. Exactly. Wow. It my,

thankfully my platform from the very beginning and probably this was, this was very intentional because this is just who I am as a person. I'm a pretty private person in a lot of ways in that stuff. But like I would say, it's also happened that way because I was in my 20s when I got it. Like lots of people on social media now got it when they were 16, 17 years old. Like just this is a massive amount of fame and attention and money. I'm glad it happened to me after I was fully formed as an adult somewhat.

Like, thank God. I was like, thank God. It did not happen to me when I was 14. What was internet culture like when you were in middle school? Because I'm 39. Yeah. And I'm 30. You're going to be 31. Okay. So when the internet kind of like came out really and was like in our home, it was in fifth grade and it was dial up. And it was there was one computer in the living room. And that was the family tool by the way. Like it wasn't like, you know, you could like God forbid you bedazzled it. You know what I mean? I feel like there's this like optics of year 2000 that was like, oh, like tech and like we're making it cutesy. And it's like, no, no, that's what we're doing now. Yeah. Yeah. Before it was like that's the family like car. Yeah. You know what I mean? You can't. No, you're so right. And like that's how it was for me too. And then it was like this gateway of starting to like I am and message and have an aim and like have a connection with your friends that wasn't just on the phone. But it kind of like things took forever to load. Like it kind of stopped there. And I try.

I have a five-year-old and I tried to think about what it will be like for her at 13 or before with social media. And it's very, I mean, now, I mean, it's going to change so much. But like, that's all my thing. I know. But, like, it's hard for me to really take in what it was like for 13-year-olds, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago. Like, you're so right about that. 15, 20. Like, where was the internet when you were in middle school?

When I was in middle school, it was, um, we were a little. past dial-up, I would say, like not far, but a little bit. No, no, it's okay. But it was, I'm just trying I'm, yeah, yeah. Because I do, I do remember dial up, um, when I was younger, but when I was in middle school, it was just, like high speed, right? Yeah, yeah. And you could be on the phone at the same time. Yes, exactly. So when I, when I was in middle school, that was when, it was still family computer, right? Okay, really? Okay. Yeah. My sister and I used to have this like little timer that I think my mom still has that we would literally time it like each other. So she'd be like, okay you have you have 60 seconds or whatever the fuck like you have 10 more minutes like it's my turn

yeah and it'll be like the timer went off you made it go faster like we would like argue oh my god and play computer games and stuff like um so like that's kind of what it was when i was in middle school and i remember around like 6 to 7th grade that was around when my space came came out so my space was like the new hot thing and my sister was like becoming an html coder like she was like customizing. Yeah, she was just customizing her page. She was getting real good at it. Okay. She was getting real into like customizing the pages and stuff. And so like that was like all throughout middle school. I think my freshman year of high school too was my space was still a thing. But my freshman year of high school was when Facebook became like pretty big. Okay. That was freshman year of

college for me. Oh yeah. So there you go. And that was like honestly when we did Facebook, I remember I like begged my mom to like please let me get a Facebook like. All right. All of my friends are on Facebook. My mom was, I mean, honestly, it worked out because my mom was very strict about the internet, like, and was making sure we knew, like, weirdos are afoot on the internet. Like, yeah. My mom was like, you can have it, but I, yeah, she would say you can have it, but I need your, like, login info.

And I'm always going to go look at it. Like, she would just, like, put fear right there, even if she didn't check it. That's early, like, right? It seems like early parental control. Oh, yeah. In a way, that's actually really smart. Yeah. Good job, mom.

Yeah. And she was like, I'm going to go in there and check. And then if we got... Did you? No. Yeah. And she would like, honestly, she would, when we would get grounded or something or we were not...

Our privileges would be revoked. Yeah. She would change the password to like our accounts. Like, she would change them. So in case we went somewhere else and we were trying to log in. Brilliant. Yeah. She would change the password, which we never did.

Because my sister and I were weirdly obedient children. Same. We were very, very good kids. Same. We never did that. But like, I would say Facebook's, like, that's... when it started taking off. And then I remember Twitter came out around that time too.

Oh, wow. So it was like the inception of a lot of like the bigger ones now. What about Instagram? Because I feel like that, I mean, I know it's like not as cool anymore. Honestly, now, yeah, I see they're about the same. But TikTok's like number one, I think. Number one, yeah. I know.

I knew that. Yeah, yeah. I was just making sure you knew. I'm up on it. Yeah. Just kidding. Instagram, I got my, my, my, my, my, my, Instagram I got, I think when I was like a sophomore in high school, like, yeah, around

sophomore year of high school was my first time getting it. So I was like, and that was when, you know, at that time, that was like when the internet was, you would just post fucking anything. Right. Like any, any, every inane stupid thought that I had when I was 14, like, oh, I, the amount of like Facebook statuses I have where I'm just like, Diet Coke. I haven't seen anything like it's like ironic. Yeah, it's like, it's just a picture of flower. Then you're like, die coke. Yeah, I'm like, die coke. Like, there's no thought or anything.

I'm just saying things. It's almost like stream of consciousness just into the computer. Were there influencers happening yet? Where, like, it could be a brand or it could be a career? I think that started happening when I was, like, later in high school going into college. That was when, like, YouTube became a thing. So then YouTube, like, YouTube was already came out in, like, 2009, 2008. And, like, I remember we used to watch.

That was when YouTube was purely just, like, epic fails. or like, or like skits. Like it was like people making sketches and stuff and like just to entertain. Yep. And I remember my sister and I thought YouTube was like fascinating because we're like, oh my God, you could just make stuff and put it on here. Like that was crazy to us. So around that time, I would say like end of high school was when YouTubers became a thing.

So like they were like the in my head like the OG influencers. Like Tumblr, I would say was one of them too. But like YouTube was when they were like the girls were making money. Like they were getting paid to go places. They were like getting free things. Okay. So that's when I think the like explosion of YouTube happened when I went into college. Like, and everybody's a YouTuber. Everybody's doing like 10 minute vlogs, doing like edits, like that kind of thing. Wow. So that was like, I would say like the explosion of what we know now. Right. And then I kind of went to Instagram.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Then I think Instagram exploded and then YouTube was still like long form. Then it was like when YouTubers started like monetizing on multiple platforms. So they started moving to Instagram and then TikTok. just came and like completely shifted everything, I think. And Snapchat. Yeah. Wasn't that a moment? I used that in college. And that was actually where I initially started posting videos. But they were just to my friends because I was like private on everything.

But I would like post rants. Like what I did eventually on TikTok, like I would just post me complaining about shit. Like you know when you're in your early 20s like you're like, I'm hilarious and everything's annoying. So I'm just going to like complain. Like that was like my thing. I was like, I'm just going to bitch about things that I think are annoying. and like, or things that I think are funny.

And so, like, were you scared? No, because I was private. So I was like, ah, because I always, my mom was always like, imagine if a job, like, employer sees this. So I was always keeping that, like, top of mind, like, me having piece. Such a good mom. Yeah.

For real. Like, honestly, really setting the table for me to start doing this now, so it all worked out. Yeah. But, yeah, I was like, that was around the time, like, I was, like, getting more comfortable talking on camera. And I think that was because I was doing journalism in college at the time. So that was my first time, like, recording myself and seeing myself, like, and hearing my own voice.

I was, I'm curious, like, when you first started seeing yourself, did you ever think, like, wow, I sound weird? Yes. Yeah, I couldn't stand the sound of my voice or anything. Well, and in college, at first I went to school for singing. And so I, like, my voice teacher was having me record my voice and then listen back and critique it. And I, yeah, and she would always be like, well, you're hearing yourself through your bones. So you're more resonant through in what you're hearing and your head.

head than what we're hearing and I was like oh wow I sound so annoying to everybody you know what I mean my bones are telling me I'm I'm so annoying my bones are telling me I'm deeper and it's better out there and my like it's not good but yeah and then and then now I'm just thinking of bones I forget what I was well I also felt that way too when I like heard my voice on camera for the first time I for real thought I was like I do not sound like that what did you think you sounded what Like how, like, can you put your finger on it? I felt like my voice was about 20 octaves deeper than I assumed it was, which I do have a pretty low tone, but like a deeper tone. Hearing it back, it sounded deeper to you.

Yeah, hearing it back, I was like, who the fuck is that? Like, I would hear my own voice and I'm like, oh my God. And I remember, too, when I was a journalism student in college, I had this really, really terrible professor. And she was a woman. That's such a bummer. But she was like so misogynistic. There are a few of them. Yeah, that's such a bummer.

But she, I remember she one time, like, in. a critique of my video that I had like put like my package she was like giving me notes and um one of the notes she gave me was that I should um intentionally raise the register of my voice when I talk on camera because it would appear more feminine and therefore be better to listen to and I was like now you make me want to talk in a deeper voice like I literally was like that's not that's fucking dumb and I remember like she controlled the fate of my grade so I was like okay so I started talking in a higher register. The reason why that haunts me to this day is because when I started making TikTok videos for real, like if I go, if I for some reason see someone comment on one that's really old,

like five five-ish years and I go back and I look, I feel like I sound like Mickey Mouse and that's because I'm like, I'm raising the register of my voice. Because you're not being authentic because she fucking put that in your head. Yeah. And I start like talking almost nasally, which humiliates me when I watch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is not what I sound like. I relate to that. And in our like, It was musical theater. There was a voice teacher and she just spoke up here. And she was trying to get everybody to speak like this. And I was like, I would rather die.

Like, I would rather never book a job. Sorry. But like, yeah, first of all, is there any world where I went in for an audition and was like, Jordan? I can't stand you. Like, I'm never getting hired as an actor. First of all, you know what I mean? And then, yeah, I guess she sounded nice when she sang. but like most of us have to talk when we're not singing.

You know what I mean? Yeah, typically. Yeah, she's trying to get everyone to. But like also we all were changing the where we were speaking. Yeah. And there was, yeah, there was just so much like insidious messaging always and that where it was like, just because I wasn't a dancer and a lot of the other kids there were like professional dancers and like or professional singers or whatever. So they were used to hearing all of the misogynistic things that were just like kind of.

of threaded into that industry. Yeah. But for me, I wasn't. So I was like, well, why do we have, like, little things of, like, the heels have to be, the tap shoes have to be healed for us or, you know, all the insinuations of, like, you know, you're looking at yourself constantly in the mirror dancing. Like, no one's thin enough. Everyone needs to get thinner.

Yeah. So, like, it was sort of endless and subtle, but that is, like, being on this earth a little bit. Right. As women especially. But it's really exciting that people are finally in a public way. Right. Talking about it. For real. I grew up with my mom being, and I'm curious, like, how you learned it or if it was just innate for you.

But my mom was, and she was an RN nurse, but she was also like an energy worker and did Reiki and, like, therapeutic touch. Yeah. And it really embarrassed me as a kid. Like, my friend would come over with a hurt ankle and she'd be like, come here, I'll fix it. she like wouldn't touch it and I'd be like oh my god like your mom's a witch and I'd be like I know I know I know I hate it yeah I know it's so embarrassing she's also a regular nurse but

she believes in real medicine do yeah not just the spiritual confusing for people but she also like to her credit she was just like went to the beat of her own drum and spoke about the thing she wanted to speak on and what she believed in and she was always you know had this sort of alt mentality at the time in our, you know, Irish Catholic town that we had moved to was very vocal about like women are magic. Like we have always been magic. We like literally can

create things from our body out of nothing. Like is there any more wizardry? She's so mean. Yeah. And I'd be like, oh, but in retrospect, I'd be like, yeah, it's called like getting pregnant. Like, you know, we need to both. I have a word for it. Jesus. Yeah. Like it's not. a big deal. And in retrospect, I'm like, wow, so iconic that she had the wherewithal to speak to it like that. And she had, and now I feel like it's so in the zeitgeist, but she was like, the patriarchy was created because they were threatened by our indescribable magic. Amen. Yeah. And very true. And we became controlled and it is our destiny to, you know, be free. Yeah. Essentially. And to keep like going towards that light of being.

heard and being seen and not being minimized and absolutely um your mom was ahead of her time she was yeah she was yeah in a way that now you know it slowly i tried not to let it in but it really it did like it got into my brain and it is throughout pen 15 in these ways of going like yeah um oh periods are gross like oh we're going to show it right you know what i mean we're not we're not skipping that part like we're going to like all these little things that were meaningful right kind of try to well that's and that's one of the beautiful you're going to focus on the beautiful right and that's one of the of that show, honestly, I think, is in its authenticity. But also, and it's like, it's not afraid to talk about things that are very real and relatable,

but also, like, we've been conditioned to believe are, like, bad, bad, gross, not good, like, whatever the synonym you want to use. Exactly. And they're almost always exclusive to women. Exactly. Yeah, like, exclusive to women and women alone. Yeah, what's gross about a dude? No, for real.

Oh, how much time do you got? I know. Well, no, in real life. But, like, at 13, it's like... Especially. Well, especially, but I feel like it was reserved for... Like, guys could be talking about masturbating at the lunch table. And it'd be funny or it'd be whatever.

And it'd be like, Jordan. I don't know why I keep saying Jordan. You know? And if a girl was doing that, at least when I was 13, I think it's probably the same, unfortunately, that it was like, oh, okay, it's your slut. Like, you just would never, ever, ever make a joke about that, at least when I was 13. No, same. Likewise.

And it was also crazy. Even for me, like I, growing up, I was a very tall child. So like. Same. Oh, really? Yeah. I have been a big, big fucking girl for a long time. Like when I was young, when I was in middle school, I was 5'4 when I was 10, 11.

So like that was pretty daunting height for that age. How tall are you now? Six feet. Okay. Yeah. So I was 5, 4 when I was in 6th grade. My sister stopped growing at that point and she's two years older than me. So then I, like, grew past her.

And I remember from 7th to 8th grade, I grew 4 inches in one year. So I went from 5'4 to 5.8. So when I was in 8th grade, I was 5.8. Wow. And I remembered, too, like, even like something like that, like, I hated my height. I hated being tall when I was a kid. So fucked up. Yeah, I hated it.

And it's also ingrained in me to hate it. Like, it's ingrained in me to despise my body and, like, everything about it and why it doesn't look like other girls' bodies. And, like, that was something I think is, like, unfortunately a very common experience, especially for women. And at that age, like that very, very young age and pressurable age. And I think the good thing is, like, I've talked a lot about this too with, like, my parents. My dad is a very large person, which is why I am as big as I am.

My mom is very small, which is why my sister's built like her and I'm built like my dad. But it's like my mom was very adamant about like how like our bodies are never going to look like specific other women because we are not the same race. the same ethnicity and we also are just different people like and and that doesn't make one better than the other my mom was like very adamant about instilling that in me from a young age and you know like when like you said when you're young you're like oh you don't fucking know yeah yeah you don't know anything yeah but it's true like and like you said like I think I was um I was like you don't know and then it just noodleed its way in there thank God I try to remind myself that as a parent now even where I'm like she's no idea what I'm talking about she thinks I'm an idiot and that's just going to get

way more extreme. Like your vibe. Intense. You know, like you're just, but I'm just going to keep saying it. And that's enough because I can drive myself crazy of being like, am I being good enough parent? Am I thinking like, oh my gosh, I can't only imagine. And like, life is so complex and being a human is so complex.

And am I giving her enough? And I just tell myself, okay, my mom said the craziest shit. And that's all she need to do. Yeah. To say it and say it and say it and say it. and it's so even when I didn't want it to noodle and it noodleed. Right. And thank God it did.

No, I feel the exact same way. And I feel like it was like it was pivotal for me even when I was in like the throes of my like pick me phase like my internalized misogyny phase through high school. Like it would still come up like even then. And sometimes I joke because like a lot of times I get asked like if I was always this way like so adamant about like independence confidence and like being mean to men who are awful. Like have I always been that way or did something happen? And I was like generally speaking, yes, I've always been a very hard-headed child.

So I always felt like I knew everything, even though I didn't. But also I felt like it was a combination. It was like a perfect storm of like how my parents raised us. And then my just unbelievable confidence and like borderline delusional confidence. Like I was always so sure of myself, even if I wasn't. Like I felt like even in moments of like somewhat doubt, I felt like, well, I know. Wow, really? It's amazing.

Yeah. And I think that was like, really. rare for me. It's rare for women in general, but especially teenage girls. Like, it's extremely rare. And so I think, like, I would tell, I told my mom, like, if I'm being honest, I really do think my, like, disdain for how men felt just inherently better than women. I used to hate that. Like, I recognize- And could you see it and recognize it early on? Yeah, from a very young age. Fascinate. That's fascinating. Yeah. That you were, like, saw. It's interesting what different humans, like, focus in on and can see in a way that other don't. I agree. You know. I think part of that might have been...

It's a superpower. Yeah, I think part of that, honestly, might have been attributed to because I was so big, like, physically bigger than most of the boys at my age or older than me. I think that othered me in a way that I could, like, remove myself a little bit and be like, well, of course, you're not fucking with me. I'm taller than you. Why would you? Like, I would, like, I would, like, think that all the time. I would be like, well, of course not, because you wish you were my height and I wish I was your height. So now what? Like, that's like, that's just one of those things. I guess we have to deal with. Still, that's pretty profound to be able to think that way, I think. I do. Yeah, no, you're, you're,

I've heard that from other people. They've been like, that's rare, like, to have that. Because I really do think I've had body neutrality for a very long time, which is rare. Like, I've always been, you know, body positivity I think is cool, but I think it has been warped and twisted into something I don't love, like, really. So I strive more for body neutrality, which is like, I don't want to feel anything towards my body other than grateful. I want to feel grateful it moves.

It keeps me alive. It breathes. It laughs. It smiles. Like, that's what I want to be grateful for. That's how I want to perceive my body. And I think that's a great way of looking at it. it because it good or bad it's it's it's it's it's keeping me alive and that's what I feel grateful for

I just want to feel grateful that's all I want to feel so that's what I've been working towards for a long time but I think I had that inherently until I started doing this honestly oh I so appreciate your candidness I think it's important too I got my period in seventh grade when I was 12 like about to be well I turned 13 and on my birthday and on seventh grade really yeah on my birth grade in seventh grade in seventh grade Yeah. Did you tell your mom? Yeah, I did immediately. But I like was so glad that it had. First of all, I was like, oh my God, when I pulled down my pants because it was just the red wedding down there.

Were you waiting for it? No. I was waiting. I was like, still not here. Because my friends were getting it and I got it when I was in eighth grade. No, my mom had told us about it like I think around like fifth grade like when we were going into school. So I like knew of it but I was like, nah, I don't. it'll see me when it sees me.

Well, also, this is different, but kissing. Yeah. Was, to me, was like, saved by the bell. Did you watch Save by the Bell? Yeah, yeah. Probably too, like, no, I'm very familiar with screeches later in the gang. Okay. Well, Kelly and Zach's kissing was like, I was like, perfect, can't wait.

You know what I mean? I'm with you on that. Closed mouth, moving the head. Really long time. Yeah, just a lot of neck work. Probably like sex, like fake sex, right? Like hugging. Yeah, exactly.

You're like they're having sex on TV. Yeah, yeah, literally. And I was, I felt like you too about kissing. I was like, but even then I would like tell my mom, I was like, well, what if I don't want to kiss? And my mom was like, then you don't. Wow. Like I was so averse. You're so empowered, like immediately.

I was so like, how can I do this alone? Like, what if I want to be alone when I do it, then what? Like that's, I was so like, contingency plan. Like, I was so like, ugh. Because I was just so. Boundary. Yeah. You're like very aware of boundaries.

I didn't know boundaries were a thing until my 20s. I was like, oh, I'm allowed to have my own sense of self. I'm allowed to be like, yeah, sadly, I really wasn't aware of it. My first kiss with my boyfriend, I was in eighth grade, like devastated me because it was not Zach and Kelly. Yeah. It was like a tongue to the back of the throat for a minute or two. You're just being attacked. Yeah.

And then having to be like, you know, bye. See you tomorrow. I loved it. And then I cried a lot after. Because I was like and that was a feeling of like nobody told me. Yeah. That's what kissing is. I will never do it again.

No, I was like I'm never doing that again. Had I had the information going in. That wouldn't have that wouldn't have happened. No. That would have transpired differently. And I could not believe that people wanted to do that after that. I was like, that's disgusting. Yeah.

And you guys are perverts. How's that? Yeah. And you're all perp. It did sort of, you're right. It did kind of change my idea. And probably the you're the, the, you learning about what sex was. Right. It was like a bunch of perverts. Yeah. Yeah. I literally was horrified. Like I was like crazy to really think about it. Yeah. And I think it was around that time to, um, my, like, what are we doing? Yeah. My mom, my mom and dad had been trying for my brother. Okay. So I think that was also like it just lined up perfectly. And you knew not the details. No, no, no. I knew that they were trying to have

No, we didn't know until after. Yeah, until like after my mom explained the talk to us, then we knew. Okay. At that point, because at that point, I think it just lined up perfectly for us going into middle school, like, at an age where we're probably going to hit puberty. And then also my brother is going to get, my mom's going to get pregnant. So it was like a win, a win-win. Yeah.

To have that talk at that time. Wow. Yeah, I was like, I think it just lined up perfectly, honestly, the timing of everything. But I was like, like you without the boots on the ground experience. I was horrified. I was like, no way that's what you guys are doing. What? I know.

And I remember being horrified. And that's why I asked my contingency plan question. And I said, okay, cool. Once you answered that, I'm good. I don't need to be scared because it's still crazy to think about it. Like, obviously, I've dabbled. But it's still somehow, isn't it weird? It is weird.

Like, why are we here? Yeah. When you really think about it, it's a little too much. It's a little, it's spooky. It gets spooky real quick. It's very, yeah, it's very strange. Yeah, I was, and that was like my general understanding of it until obviously I went to high school and then I like learned a little bit more about it just through friends and like people talking, experience, that kind of thing. Then I learned more at that point.

But like at the time, I was like, if I don't want to do it, I'm not going to. That's what I like, but always tell myself. I was like, yeah, no way, Jose. Yeah, that's great. I was real North Korea, you know what I mean? Yeah. I didn't lose my virginity. till college.

Yeah, same. Yeah. So, like, that's fine. But most of my friends had earlier. No, same. Yeah. But I was like, again, I was North Korea. So that's why I was like, yeah, no way.

Yeah. And every dipshit kid in my school, I was like, yeah, you're nuts. Like, you're fucking crazy, in fact. And which is ironic because the man I'm going to marry is he went to high school with me. No. Yeah, he did. Did you know him in high school? Yeah, we were friends in high school.

We are not high school sweethearts, though. Wow. No dating, no flirting. No, he would, there was flirting in the sense that like banter, I guess, but like, no. Like you're stealing his hat and wearing it or like what? No, more like he would steal my hat and wear it. Like he would like, he would annoy me. And I would be like, he's annoying.

And that was another reason my sister said she should have known that she was gay in high school because we all went to high school together. Yeah. And she was like, my sister, as gay as she is, always had boys as crushes. Like throughout all of high school, she would have two or three a year. She'd be like, yeah, I'm rocking with him. I'd be like, he's ugly. What is your problem? Like, what does the matter with you?

And now I know she was just looking for something. She was like, okay, that one doesn't work. Okay. Okay. And I think, like, my sister jokes that, like, that's how she should have known she was gay because my man was the only man and arguably the most handsome guy in our school at the time, especially. Like, she was like, he was the only one.

I was like, yuck! And she was like, and I think that's how I knew. I should have known. Like, even then. Like, I liked every ugly bitch that went to our school. for some reason, him I was like, yuck. Now we know why. If anything, that was the most clear indicator.

Wow. So, all roads lead to the same. Lesbian. True. True. But weird transition from lesbian, but I do have some fun facts about you. Okay. And you can tell me if they're fun or not. Okay.

Well, this one we actually talked about, which is before Penn 15, Anna and Maya, funded a web series together called Mana. Mana? Manna. Yeah. And what was the pre? Was this the one you were already telling me about? Yeah, weird.

Because I haven't been asked about that in so long. Yeah. So funny. Yeah, we have her own in-house nardwar. Okay. She does a lot of research. Got it. Yeah.

It was the one that I said before about every episode was a different reject reality show pilot. Yeah. And everyone was like, no, thank you. Anything else? Yeah, basically. Okay, this one says, in 2013, your mom once sent you a care package containing a wind chime, one-fourth of a Yankee candle, a tea steeper. hair ties and a floss sample.

To camp? I doesn't say where. Amanda, was that to camp? Was an Instagram post you had said? Oh, oh, oh, oh. Yeah, I mean, that sounds about right. I remember quite the hall. I remember Christmas.

She was really into re-gifting. And that could be something already in your house. Like, there was a stocking stuffer one year, and it was panty hose that has like not been. opened for like a dollar from CVS and I was like this was in my drawer she's like well you don't wear it you forgot about it and maybe now you'll wear it now that you remember you have it right no 100% yeah she's like I got bought it for you at some point and now it's rewrapped and what okay you want a gift or not very her yeah that's a wind chime based of what you've told me

about your mom makes sense yeah she loves chimes and like a tea steeper like you was that I'm trying to think of that post that was an old one right it was like from in the mail it like came in the mail yeah yeah oh by mistake she accidentally she sent me a care package that's right and she accidentally included like a piece of used floss that's right she's like well I was multitasking what do you want yeah and she's right and she's always clearing out her house and sending me whatever she's clearing out hence the like half a pinky candle and she's right and she's like half a pinky candle and she's right and she's like half a geeky candle and she's stuff like that. Just whenever. No, she's still doing it. So this day, she's like, well, I had to clear out the pantry. You want it or not. Basically.

Basically. Reduced, reuse recycle. Yeah. That's the good part. Oh, one time I got a care package for my mom because I, like, my mom would send awesome care packages when I was in college. But one time I called her because remember when you were under 21, your license is like vertical and then when you are over 21, they made it horizontal when I was in

college. So like, and that was an easier way. of determining obviously who's underage. What if that's a California thing? I think so, yeah. So, like, our, my sister had already turned 21 and I was 19, I think. And so, like, I asked, I called my mom and I, like, gave her a pitch to, like, send me my sister's old ID, which was the vertical one.

I was like, so I could drink. And I was like, all my friends are 21. And, like, well, with the exception of, like, my one girlfriend at the time, because she was younger than me. And I was like, but I'm going to be really responsible. I swear to God. Like, I was like, can you please send. it to me. Like I'm missing out on so many things. Can you please send it to me? And then my mom was like,

okay, yeah, I'll send it to you, but if you get arrested, don't call me. I was like, okay, you know what, deal. Oh, God. I'll, hey, you know what? Deal. I was like, you got yourself a deal, brother. And she sent it to me and I used the hell out of that thing. Wow, that's great. I used the brakes off that thing. I made a mistake when I was 18 and dated still a virgin, a 38-year-old restaurant owner. Whoa. Yeah. But the benefit was that I got an ID.

Oh, that was your win. Yeah, he gave me an ID. The one good thing. Which sounds really shady now. Yeah, because it was. Yeah, it was. I remember I lost the ID because I went to a concert that was 18 and over.

And I was 20 at the time. But I gave him the wrong one on accident. I put them right next to each other. And I was already kind of drunk when I got there. So I accidentally gave him that one. And I obviously can't be like, Oh, sorry, I gave you the wrong one. Mind you, like, that one said I was 5'3 and like 120 pounds.

I was like, that's, I am not that at all. Like I had a whole backstory of like, oh, I was like, when I got it, I was 15. And like, you know, obviously now I'm bigger and I'm older. Like that was, yeah, that was like me making up bullshit. And the guy kept, he was like, yeah, you can go in. And then I was like, oh, I need my ID back. He's like, no, I'm going to hold this. And then the person who it belongs to can come get it from me.

and I said, no worries. Then I just walked inside. Like I gave up. I said, good call. No worries. Hey, that was a test and you passed. I'm an undercover cop. Okay, another fun fact.

You once did the foot treatment where you put your feet in a water tank and tiny fish nibble on your skin. Yes. In Thailand with two of my best friends and my partner. And how was that? Not good. I don't like it. No. They were like, great.

Our feet are so smooth. No. Don't like it. Why is just over-stimulating the feeling? Yeah, it's very, I mean, it just feels like little fish are eating little parts of you. Like, I'm not into it, you know? Turns out I hate that. It's very literal what's happening, but that, it doesn't, it's not, I'm not into it.

Yeah. Did you last the whole time? A lot of people, no. You said, oh, never. No, no, no, no. A lot of people enjoy it, though. Yeah. Have you ever dabbled?

I've never done that. Honestly, probably not. But that's just because sea creatures freak me out. Oh. I am a very afraid of a lot of animals, but like... Stop. Yeah. And it's more so just fear in terms of like, I respect them in their space.

And the entirety of the earth, I'm like a guest in their house is how I feel. So like they just like scare me because they're a very real threat in a lot of ways. And I don't want any problems. What about like a little fish that was just going to like eat the dry skin off your feet? I'd be like, no, thank you. Okay. Yeah. And also like looking at them would would freak me out.

Yeah. Like seeing them. them do it like there's hundred there are hundreds of them and they be they become a part like they're just like they're all attached to your feet it's really disgusting and unpleasant it feels crazy yeah i i would probably not at all like there are certain things in this life that when i see people doing them i'm like i could go my whole life and never do that and i know skydiving same bungee jumping of any kind cave diving. I don't even like a high, um, diving board.

Yeah, yeah, thanks. Yeah, like hot air balloons, like, nope. I could never go on one and I'm sure I wouldn't be missing out. What about roller coasters? How do you feel? I like roller coasters, depending. Like, if there, I really like roller coasters,

but the ones that go straight up and down, I, I'm not a fan of. Would you say you have a fear of heights? I do, yeah. So like, it's when I'm suspended that, and I can see it for too long that I'm not a fan of. When it's going so fast, I can't, I can't, I can't even, register surroundings. You don't even know how high up you are. I'm cool with that.

So it's fine. Yeah. Like it's just like it's spinning me around like before I hit a pinata. That's how I feel. So it's like. So with that, I'm like yeah, sure, why not. But if it's like a extended period of time, yeah, no. I'm good.

There are so many, even a cruise. Like I don't, I don't ever want to go on a cruise. Well, there's so many scary Netflix documentaries now about about women going missing on cruises or pooping on the cruise. Have you seen that one? No. There's one called poop cruise. I saw the title.

I was kind of like, I can't, I can't. Yeah. I honestly don't know. I didn't watch it either for the same reason you didn't. It's too literal. Like, just keep it a little more abstract. I've seen it all. I would have turned too much.

Yeah, once I watched the little preview, I said, I'm good. Don't need to find any more. It's just like everything overflowed. Is that the idea? I think so, right? It's like they had less power and funny. So they all, like, they couldn't flush the toilets. They were stuck at sea for a few days.

Just shitting on, like, I'm like, yeah. It looks like a poop lasagna. It would be a poof. Oh, wow. That makes me want to tune in. I'm not even kidding. Something about the lasagna imagery.

The poop lasagna, if you will. Didn't expect it. Yeah, I feel the same way about cruises where I'm like, I also had a very weird hyperfixation with the Titanic when I was young. So I did a lot of research on the Titanic and I was like, yeah, fuck a cruise. Like, from a very young age, I was like, I don't need to be on a big boat. No, thank you. We didn't really go on vacations until my parents divorced, and then my dad started taking me on cruises.

That's a real dad thing to do. Yeah, there was a casino for him. You know what you mean? And then I'd go to the teen club. I'd get crazy. And, yeah, I loved it, but I didn't think about the Titanic being a thing. Most children don't. For some reason, I was very concerned, but like.

So you were like, we're going to hit an iceberg. Yeah, it was more. Yeah, it was more so the logistics of the Titanic that I was like genuinely concerned about like, I don't know what put me. I think I like kind of learned about it a little bit in school, which it piqued my interest. So then I like went deep. Really was like I need to learn. No pun intended.

Yeah, exactly. I need to learn everything there is to know about this. And so like my mom would buy me like children friendly books on like the Titanic. But then I was like going through them so fast and my mom started getting me like adult books on the Titanic. So I was reading all of them and I was like studying up. And then when Titanic, the movie came out, I was like, you know, wow. Like, oh my God, I need to watch it. So then like my mom showed me the movie Titanic.

And then I remember when I watched it at the very end, I was like, are those people real? Like, was that story real? Like Jack and Rose. And my mom goes, no. And then I go, stupid ass movie. Like I watched it. I was like, they didn't talk about the ship. They didn't talk about the captain.

They didn't talk about the lack of preparation. they didn't talk about this was the first ship ever to set sail at ship expert yeah i really was like well you missed all the good parts of the titanic i was so like this useless ass movie that's what i thought about the titanic when i was a child uh because i was like here i am looking for the info and you guys were making up a story about two lovers the hell you're talking what you're talking about putting the poor irish people down below deck why don't you talk about that once you talk about that let's get into that you've always been like aware of injustices yeah And like, or the thing that should be central.

Right. Being marginalized. Yeah, I've been a very, I've had a very curious perspective. Curious. As a child. Amazing. Yeah. And I, and my mom, like, we joke about it too, like, because I was, and this is not

me gassing myself. This is a true fact. I was a very smart child. Like, I started reading, I started reading very young. And like, I was supposed to skip a grade, like, which, technically speaking, I started to school early so that that would be two grades ahead of what like so they suggested i skip a grade to my mom a couple times because they were like i think this is too easy for her um but i wasn't a bad child so i would never like i'm getting such a fuller snapshot of you like truly i just feel like i saw

you like and you're brilliant yeah thank you that's not an easy no yeah like well even like my mom it's funny because they told my mom multiple times like you should move her up probably like it might be better for her. My mom literally was like, no. And she was like, I, first of all, how'd she know? I think she, well, first of all, she was like, I, that's like too much pressure to put on my child, like, first of all, like putting her, because then I would be with people who were like two or three years older than me, which is like a whole other thing. That would put me in the same grade as my sister, which my sister was also brilliant, but so painfully shy when we were kids. So my mom was trying to create autonomy between us. And then the last one, which is the realest one and the funniest one, my mom was like, she's

already too big for her, which is like you keep her where she needs to be, okay? Like, we don't want to gas her too much. Like, that's a super villain waiting to happen, which I think is a fair assessment. Like, and I even said recently to one of my friends I was selling them, like in fifth grade, we had to pick a disease to do a research report on. Okay.

And I picked lupus because my friend's mom had lupus. And so this was a very long report that I did. My teacher literally had a meeting with my mom because she was convinced I plagiarized it because of how it was written, which I was like, how could I have done that? The computer is barely anything. What grade was that? Fifth grade. So I was in, I was 10.

Yeah, nine or 10. Yeah, I think I just like, yeah, I've been to know it all for a very long time too. So thankfully I turned out smart. Otherwise, that was stuck. I'd always be like every other man. You know what I mean? Like just so confident, no, nothing to back it up. Did you raise your hand a lot?

Like were you? Yeah. All the time. Yeah. All the time. Did you ever do it start to do it less when you realize that it wasn't? Because for me, for example, not as courageous, once I realized that I was, you know, othering myself in a certain way

by raising my hand a lot as a girl. Yeah, yeah. Which is devastating to say. Yeah. It's true, though. It's very common. I stopped for a long time. Yeah.

I didn't stop, I guess. But I didn't do it as much as I wanted to. I mean, that makes sense. That's very common, like, especially for women. Yeah. No, definitely. Unfortunately for me, my hubris was just, was just. was just out of control.

I perception or not, like I just loved knowing things. I was like I loved knowing a lot of things. I loved knowing the most things. Like I looked at it almost like a competition between no one but me and myself. But like I was very like I loved being smart and I loved knowing things.

And like that was just my thing. So I was just, I was very confident about it. And I honestly, I think me being humongous maybe helped like people not want to believe me that much because I was enormous. I was an enormous child.

And I was smart too. So, like, you know, deadly combo when you're in grade school. But, yeah, I think, like, me just being so, like, my intellect was something I drew the most confidence from. And I think I still do now, even now. Like, my confidence comes from everything you cannot see. And so my intellect was one of them. And so when I was a kid, like, I always joke that, like, I think me feeling so unbearably smart to people. like me being perceived that way outpaced my need to like be liked by men.

Like it was like I was such a know at all that it was like, I don't give a fuck if you think I'm attractive. As long as you know I'm smarter than you. Like that's what I used to like, that was like my like intensity. And so I had a lot of anger too when I was in high school towards men. Like I had a lot of like animosity towards them because I felt like they were just awful, which especially in high school they can be.

And so it was like, I think just. a perfect cocktail of like my upbringing, just generally speaking who I am and then also me getting smart at a young age is probably for the best that my mom kept me tempered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even like when I did, I joked about this on the show many times, but like in fifth grade we had to do this like wax figure presentation where we had to pick someone we admire throughout history and then do a whole report on them and then dress up as them on like back to school night and then do like a whole monologue.

and so I picked King George the 3rd I did not admire him at all he's one of the worst English monarchs in history I just thought I found him fascinating he's responsible for a lot of the things that are still in play today in the UK so I literally was like this is fascinating I'm going to write about him and even my teacher called my mom and was like

I feel like maybe she should pick someone else like is there maybe someone that she likes that maybe and my mom was like is it against the rules and then she was like no and she's like well then just let her do it like cares and I just found him fascinating he was a terrible monarch and I really wanted to research it. And I was the only one who cross-dressed, so there's that too.

So I was like, yeah, was I concerned about men or boys at the time? No. Because I was dressing like a boy. And I was faking a British accent all day. And maybe, honestly, that's part of my performance. I was just like, this is going to get me so much attention if I do this. Whether it's good or bad, not concerned. Just need them to look at me.

It just need a minute of your time. It's all it takes. Yeah. It'll feed me and keep me alive for the next year, so I appreciate you. Okay, I have another last fun fact about you. Do you remember the context of this childhood photo where you are in, I think it says, cat face paint? I actually, I don't really remember. I asked my mom too.

I was like, what the hell is that? Cat face paint. You look like cat in the hat. like Mike Myers version. That embroidered pillow I vaguely remember. I look like. You look real serious like you were there for business. That was definitely a part of there.

There's that in me always. That's like, what's happening next? You know? Ready to perform? Yeah. At a moment's notice. I'm turning 40 soon. I was always kind of just like a little bit 40.

You know. I love that about you. Me too. Yeah. I love an old soul. Yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah.

It's, yeah, I don't. I mean, maybe I'll feel differently when the time actually comes for that birthday. But right now I'm like, yeah, I'm reaching the age that I've always been finally. Yeah. You know? Thank God. Yeah. That's why I felt when I turned 30 because I was like, I hated 29 only because I just hate the number.

It felt like I was holding on to my 20s. I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. I felt like I'm 29. And you don't want to be the cliche of being like, oh, almost. I feel like, I mean, maybe. I'm wrong, but I feel like whatever everybody else is doing or feeling, there's sometimes, for me,

a vibe of being like, let me do the thing next to it. I don't want to feel like every, I heard an interior designer said recently something about like, I don't look next. I hate looking next to me for inspiration. I only look in front of myself or behind. Yeah. I felt seen by that. Yeah, that's so true. And I did feel like that too. In my 20s, I felt like very, because. I, now that I'm in my 30s and I think about how, when I was working at the NFL, I like had this conversation with this woman I worked with and she had just turned 40. And I remember we were talking and I was like telling her, you know, I just feel like I'm behind. I feel like I barely got here. And then she was like, how old are you? And I was like, at the time, I was 23. So I was like,

oh, I'm 23. She was like, oh my God, you have so much time. You are so young. And I was like, really, you think so? And she's like, yeah, like, I just turned 40. And she was like, and if I could pick a decade of my life to go back to, I would pick my 30s. Really? And I was very like, really? Like at the time and she was like, yeah, because in your 30s, like, your 20s are meant for stumbling and resetting your table and figuring out who you are and like what you want and like purpose and all of that.

It's like the most tumultuous, awful time, but also the best time. And she's like, in your 30s, you like level like in some regard. You like know who you are. You know what you want. typically at that point you're surrounded by friends that you like love for real you're not going through phases and cycles of friends and it's like that's where you really start to live life like she was like my 30s was my favorite time of my life and i remember holding on to that i felt like it was so profound especially hearing it from other women because it's like they've ingrained in us to like be so afraid of aging and getting older which i'm not anymore thank god that's the thing though is like i really want to feel like that about every decade yeah Because you don't want to like feel like it's behind you. Yeah, that's so true. We have a lot of, hopefully, if we're lucky, so many decades ahead of us.

Yeah, absolutely. How do you make like, you know, 70 to 80 like wild or whatever it is that makes it special or... Totally. You know, something else that you need. My mom has always been... And this is all in a book at this point, so I don't feel so bad saying it out loud. but she's always been very insatiable in her life in a way that was, and back to the theme of not appreciating her in the moment,

of like in a way that was frustrating for me of going like, can't you just like stay with that fiancee? Do you have to like keep looking for like the thing? But it's something that I've really come to admire about her. She's just, she just turned 80 and she's like, yesterday was a little boring. Like, you know what I mean? She's just like living, you know?

Yeah, actually. And there's something about finding a balance, I think, of like being comfortable, being bored or comfortable with life being... Like content. Content. Mm-hmm. But also still hungry to, like, imbibe it or something, you know? Yeah. For that.

Speaking of that, like, because you've been a creative your whole life, what would you say you do when you, like, want to re-inspire creativity? Like, if you feel like, especially working on Penn for so long and it doing so well and you putting so much into it. Like how do you, how did you or how do you refill your cup after? It's always really challenging, I think. And especially, and I'm thinking of you here like TV writing and going into that. And even though you've done a lot of professional writing, but like going into that next step, there's such a now I appreciate being on the other side of it, such a special moment of like being quote unquote green in it where it's like there's a reverence in.

the business side of things for newness. Once you're like in it, even with me coming in in a way that's like experimental. Yeah. Which my vibe is like, well, I did something experimental that kind of like hit in a certain way. Certainly you'll believe that I can do that again. Right. And yet there's this feeling of like, no, no, no, you're in the traditional cog now of business. Like TV shows are made this way.

They look this way. This is the act structure. Whatever. I love something singular. I love something experimental. I love doing something that feels fucked up. If I have the strength or, you know, vision to like allow myself to do that again is the question because you have to be, I have to find something within me that is comfortable looking at all of those faces again that are going like and just going like, yeah, it is going to work. You know what I mean?

Yeah. But something that helps is. like one little mantra that that I went back to a lot with Penn 15 was no pressure just purpose. Yeah, that's awesome. That was something that helped. And then also art being subjective. Yeah. And why can't I make something bad?

Yeah. Why can't I get paid to make something bad? Right. For real. And yeah, those are sort of the little, my little like mind places that I go sometimes to like help me. What do you do? I mean, I'm, I feel like I'm new. I'm so. new to that world.

Like, that's why I was asking selfishly again. Because I feel... I mean, you're, you've, like, in this world,

you've, like, really charted your own path. Oh, you know what I mean? Yeah, thank you. I feel like in this specific world, I feel like it's a very, like,

I think as, as, like, ironic or, like, corny as it sounds like, I really need to get off my fucking phone. Like, that's what re-inspires me. Even when I talk to Alana Glazer once...

Getting off of it? Yeah, getting off of it for real and not looking at it and, and like, going and doing real life things. Like Alana Glazer when she was on my on this show she told me like I realized that I have to like go live life like in order to continue to be a creative I have to go live life and like she went had a baby and then came back right and so she was like I realize if you continue to be an artist throughout your life like you have to go live life in order to like write again in order to create something new like it's something that you have to prioritize as a creative like is to continue to live my life in real. life in real time and have experiences so I can draw from something. Otherwise, you have nothing to pull from.

And she's like, or you just keep revisiting the same wells. Like, and then it creates burnout because you're like, I don't have anything else. I don't have anything else to give. And it was the same thing. I'm sure like with her like with Broad City as it was for Penn, which is like, I gave this my everything. Like all I wanted was for this to do well and it did. And then now it's like, well, now what?

And she was telling me after Broad City. I was like, well, like I already wrote all my shit. Like this was my real life. Yeah. like this was my real life yeah i put it all in there so like what am i supposed to do and she was like then i realize i have to go live life like i have to let go i love that and continue to do so and do so much i want to do i do i do i want to say too before we wrap i want to say like i think you are incredible you and mya together especially but like you really did do something completely different and new

and fun and amazing and so deep it had so many layers but that's where i will say you are braver than me in that regard because that's that's where i'm feeling inspired by you to be courageous because it really does when you're in this now and the way I came up through the internet, it's like I have to do something that works. Like I have to do something that hits. Like that's how I feel about the writing process is like I have to create something that they're going to buy. I have to create something that people are going to love immediately.

Like people online are going to love immediately. And it gives me paralysis like a little bit because I don't want to, I don't want to. Obviously I think flopping is just part of it like when you make bad shit. Like you said, like which bad art is just as important. But I think the way that you were. describing looking at it where it's like I'm going to make something that I love and art is subjective

and like the people who get it will get it and if not at least I fucking did it and I did it the way I want it. Yes. Right and so I think that's you are way braver than me and that and I'm going to pull from that. You're doing it. You're going to do it. You're going to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I and many of my friends who do have done what you've done too so

successfully as well have told me like sometimes you've got to write your own shit. Like auditioning is great and getting cast is awesome. But sometimes you got to do yourself and I really do think I'm going to have to do that but I'm happy about it and I feel very inspired by you in this conversation oh thank you same and I can only hope to emulate even an ounce of the genius that is Ben 15 I think you are so amazing and I think my is as well but I love your show and I think you're incredible so thank you for coming on the show so much for having me this been so amazing it's been what a blast talking yeah blast you're a hoot you are I think you all I still water on myself all that's fine thank you all so much for joining us on this episode of the

show thank you so much to my amazing guest Anna Conkel for maybe the one or two people that were born in the 2000s that maybe have never been able to follow you where can they follow you I think my this very embarrassing back to the social media problems I think it's at Anna Ryan Conkel there you go Instagram and yeah and my my little memoir that's out is called the same one yes and yeah amazing and obviously you can check out Penn 15 if you'd like and if you'd love to but I think you're incredible and amazing. Thank you so much for coming. Thanks for having me.

And thank you for inspiring all of us today. All of us writers in the room, obviously, we have a writer's room going in here. And we can only hope to be picked up soon, hopefully, manifesting. I want to hear so much more about this. Oh my gosh, I know. And I will fill you in on all the details. But thank you all so much for joining us.

Thank you so much to my amazing guest, Anna Conkel. Don't forget new episodes of the comment section drop every Wednesday. And you can stream the audio on all streaming audio channels, I guess, me forgetting now that we change the outro. And you can also find us on YouTube. the comment section pod. Thank you all so much for joining us. Thank you so much my amazing guests.

And I'll see you next week. Bye.