The Daily Stoic - Actor Alexander Ludwig on How Stoicism Helped Him Get Sober

Episode Date: April 29, 2023

Ryan speaks with Alexander Ludwig about how studying Stoicism gave him the discipline to quit drinking, the power of surrendering to the moment, pursuing mastery of the crafts of acting and songwriting, the mindset he has maintained while navigating his career, and more. Alexander Ludwig is a Canadian actor and country musician. He is most known for his starring and supporting roles in the History Channel series Vikings and the films Bad Boys for Life, Lone Survivor, The Hunger Games, and Race to Witch Mountain. He currently stars on the series Heels. He began his acting career in commercials at the age of nine and moved into movie work shortly thereafter. As a musician, Ludwig released his self-titled EP in 2021, and then his debut album Highway 99 in 2022 via BBR Music Group. Ludwig has also participated in competitive freestyle skiing. ✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoke podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoke. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stokes. Something to help you live up to those four Stoke virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives

and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey it's Ryan Holiday welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke Podcast. Regretfully we will never have the real Kato on this podcast. We won't have Kato the younger or his great-great-grandfather, Kato the elder, the two towering still exo of our

time. But we can have today a guy who played a guy named Kato, a very talented and fascinating actor recommended to me by a previous guest, Atticus, the poet whose work I have been enjoying recently, whose work I've actually apparently enjoyed for a long time, but wasn't always aware of it. You may know him from the series Vikings. He currently stars in heels, which my wife and I have been watching a fascinating show about professional wrestling in the deep south reminds me kind of of where we live. He's been in 23 movies and three television series. He was Cato in the Hunger Games. He was also in Loan Survivor and Bad Boys for Life.

He just released his first album, Highway 99, and his name is Alexander Ludwig. We have a fascinating conversation in today's episode about mastery, about craft, about sobriety and recovery being in command of oneself. And we talk a bit about Kato as well. I was really looking forward to this conversation. I'm glad we got to do it in person. And without further ado, I will bring you that conversation. Check out Vikings, check out heels, check him out on Twitter and Instagram at Alexander Ludwig.

Heels, check him out on Twitter and Instagram at Alexander Ludwig. And I believe he is an expectant or recent father by the time you are listening to this. So congratulations to him on that. I will send him a copy of the daily dad. He's a big fan of the books. And so we go deep into stoicism and a bunch of other stuff. And I'll let you listen to that right now. It's funny. I talk to lots of people and a good chunk of those people haven't been readers for a long time.

They've just gotten back into it. And I always love hearing that and they tell me how they fall in love with reading, they're reading more than ever, and I go, let me guess, you listen audiobooks, don't you? And it's true. And almost invariably, they listen to them on Audible. That's because Audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre from bestsellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, and of course, ancient philosophy. All my books are available on audio, read by me for the most part. Audible lets

you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app. You'll always find the best of what you love, or something new to discover, and as an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog, including the latest best sellers and new releases. You'll discover thousands of titles from popular favorites, exclusive new series, exciting new voices in audio. You can check out stillness is the key, the daily dad I just recorded. So that's up on audible now. Coming up on the 10 year anniversary of the obstacle is the way audio books. So all those are available. And new members can try Audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500-500.

That's audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500-500. Life can get you down, I'm no stranger to that. When I find things are piling up, I'm struggling to deal with something. Obviously, I use my journal, obviously I turn to stosism, but I also turn to my therapist, which I've had for a long time and has helped me through a bunch of stuff. And because I'm so busy and I live out in the country, I do therapy remote, so I don't have to drive somewhere. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Toxbase makes it easy to find a therapist that you like. It's convenient. It's affordable. By doing everything online, Toxbase makes getting the help you

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So I heard stoicism helped you quit drinking, is that true? Stoic, yeah, stoicism has been first off, not not to pump your tires, you are my favorite author. Well, thank you. Hands down. I'll take care. Stoicism to me, um, changed my life. And I'm not the kind of guy, and this is something I need to continue to work on, that can just sit on a couch and read for hours. Sure. So a lot of the books that I read, I read with my ears. Of course. Whatever works.

But no, stoicism has had a huge impact in my life. Do you remember how you found it? There was always like nuggets in other books that I read. Like I loved like a lot of different self improvement books or whatever. You find nuggets of it and I love history. Yeah. So lot of different self-improvement books or whatever, and you find nuggets of it, and I love history. So every once in a while, I'd hear these things, like a quote from Aristotle,

like freedom is obedience to self-formulator rules, or something like that, and you're just like, and then you hear other things, and then it was really your books that introduced me on a whole nother level to it. And of course, Duncan and myself, and Duncan Penn, who I think you had on this podcast, yeah, is somebody who I talk about

it with all the time as well. Really, yeah, interesting. All right, so walk me through how to stoses and help you get sober. So people think that rehab, people who haven't been So people think that rehab, people who haven't been, is like, I think they have this preconceived notion that there's like this pill they give you. And suddenly it just all goes away. You know, and you have to rehab and you come out and things are just fine.

And what I realized it was for me when I was there Is it's a deep dive into Why we make the choices we make and why we're so self-destructive? Yeah as human beings and After you do after you start understanding more about What is kind of triggering you on this journey, the answer to these insecurities is disciplined. And it is a structure. And people, it's funny, as I've read more, as I get older, and the more things I've taught myself, I've realized that a lot of the spiritual practices, or a lot of books that I've read are almost saying the same thing in different ways.

Sure. Like, the theme that I found most important to me is that for lack of a better word, discipline is destiny. And that has been my way out of the turbulence in my life back in the day. Yeah, I think like if anyone's ever been to physical therapy or rehab from an injury, you get the sense that it's like, oh, I'm going to be worked on. Like, I'm going to go and I'm going to get massages or this kind of treatment or this medicine. But really, they're like, no, here's the work that you have to do, right?

And it's the same for I I think, the other forms of rehab. Like, you don't go there and then they're like, here are all the secrets to not drinking or doing this or that anymore, what they're like is, here are the things that you have to do every single day of your life. And the second you stop, like, as they say, they say it works if you work it, right?

Like if you do that work, then you'll stay sober. If you don't do that work, you won't. And it's really, really hard work. It's like the hardest work because it's on yourself and it's against habits or practices or assumptions you've had your whole life. Yeah. 100%. It's, I mean, and some people refer to that as the program.

Yes. Really, it's just your program. It's whatever you need to do every day to center yourself and to feel grounded. And admittedly, there's days where I'm not as good. Yeah, sure. And there's days that I am. And I think one of the things I'm really trying

to fine tune right now is is how to do this when things that are out of my control are taking me out of my element. Yes. I'm not going to be on my farm in Bastrop, you know. You know, I'm not going to be in my element. I'm going to be traveling basic things that will center you for the rest of the day. Cause that's really all the program is, once you've understood what is kind of fueling those self-destructive behaviors. Isn't there an acronym for like Halt?

Halt. Yeah, walk with you. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. And then I add thirsty, cause I don't know why they don't bring that in too. Like I'm like, there's times. And basically all that's saying is, this is something I realize. I think whenever you're sitting there and you're going like, man, like, I just,

I need a vacation. Yeah. Like, I just, I need to be in Mexico right now or damn, like, I wish my house was bigger. I just wish I was in a bigger house. I find it so funny because I'm like, do you actually want to be in Mexico right now? Or do you like the person you think you're gonna be in Mexico right now?

Yes. And it's the same with that house, right? Or do you like the person you've become to be in that? You know? And I think, you know, it's kind of the same theme from your book is just like, you get what you are. Yes. So just be the best version of yourself as possible.

Well, it's funny, in meditations, there's a passage where Marcus realizes, like doing exactly that. He's like, I know you think you want to get away from it all, like in the country or the beach or whatever. And he's like, but actually whatever you need is inside of you right now. He says, like, you can retreat and go on vacation inside your own soul right now. And I think it's true. We think, okay, if I can just get away from all these external things, then I won't feel what I'm feeling. And obviously

sometimes that's what we do. And then sometimes we do like a substance or a thought pattern or whatever has the other version of escape. But what we really just have to deal with is whatever that feeling is, and if you can deal with that feeling and process and work on it, that's actually a more sustainable and permanent solution to that thing. But we can, I think to me, one of the things that addiction is is like a sort of a proven pattern where whenever you get that feeling, you do that bad thing. I think you're not supposed to do. And then it becomes, the relief becomes associated with that feeling, even if it's also destroying your life at the same time. 100%. And it's your coping mechanism. It is your higher power. It's what you go to. Yes.

Right? It's like we fall on our habits. And if that's your habit, you're gonna fall on that, right? But I'm so grateful for stoicism in my life. And I think that so many young kids right now, especially people growing up in this world with social media and just being flooded by the self-promoting people. And I'm not saying that there's any, like everybody, you know, has their own life and I'm

not about to judge them, but it's just, if I was a kid growing up and like my idols were the, some of the things that I see now, it now. It's very scary because I think that it just kind of can, you don't understand that it's not real. Exactly. That it's a performance. Yes. And in some cases, it's literally not real because it filters on top of it and there's editing

on top of it. And you don't understand that that is not actual life. That is fake life. The highlight reel of people's life, or, you know, for some of these like business gurus, this is their way of getting you to sign up for something, right? Yes, yes. You think Andrew Tater, whatever it is, successful, whatever, but actually his only success is selling you stuff. Exactly. Well, you know, speaking of your show heels, it's like watching professional wrestling and not knowing that it's fake.

Like, yes, that it's all scripted, that it's designed to make you feel good about some people, bad about some people, vicariously follow along, stimulate sort of very primal urges, which when it is presented as entertainment, there's absolutely no problem with it. The problem is, it's not. Like these are, you're following these parenting bloggers and going like, why am I shitty because my house isn't clean like theirs. And you don't understand that they picked this location

that they're shooting from because you can't see what's on the other side of the couch, which is the same mess that's in your house or that the house is a rental or the car is a rental. Yeah, exactly. Or whatever. And I just feel like it's this kind of teaching for people that really is the way up. Because if I could sum up everything that I've read into a few words from you, it's, you're gonna be okay.

It's going to be okay, follow this. Like because I think that everyone is being made to feel like they're not good enough right now, in the world. And through this, you realize that you can do that for yourself. Through these small practices that this everyday routine, that you don't need validation externally, that this all comes internally and happiness isn't something to be gotten, it is the way. You know what I like about that whole acronym though is that like, I think we think people

that are like sober or in great shape or really successful, like we think that they're just sort of gutting it out with sheer superhuman strength all the time, right? That like they just always do the right thing that they are never tempted, that it's never hard for them. And that's not only is that not true, but the real secret is just trying to avoid

the scenarios or the environments where you are vulnerable to not being who you want to be. You know what I mean? So it's like, if you're like, hey, I make bad decisions when I'm upset, right? You just try not to make fewer decisions when you're upset. It's not like you just magically don't have a temper, right? Everyone has a temper, but you try to be the person that goes, hey, these are my processes, these are the systems I have. This is a little bit of self-discipline I have that says,

hey, when I'm pissed off, I write the email, but I don't send it, right? Or like, my Twitter account is on somebody else's phone. So I don't have the ability to angrily fire something off when I'm in the middle of a contract negotiate, or whatever, right? Like you think about how do you set up processes so you don't make bad decisions

when you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. I think I read this study once that was saying like most fights between couples happen when one or more of them is hungry. And you're like, oh yeah, right. Like, you're not actually fighting about like whose fault it was that you're late. You're fighting because you were trying to get to a restaurant and you're not at the restaurant and you're both hungry. And when you realize that, you're like, let's just table this discussion till after we eat. And not only are we not actually gonna have

to have the discussion later, but we're both gonna apologize. We're both gonna admit we're wrong. Yeah. Because we'll be different people then. Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. I also feel like it's,

I feel like so many people, including myself, wanna follow this, what's the right way? What's the right way to do it, right? And the right way is the way that works for you. Yes, you know? And I feel like that's something that I struggled to figure out along the way as I was like, oh, everyone has just what works for them.

You know, some people can survive on, on, on less sleep and be totally fine. Yes. I'm not one of those people. I never have been. And chances are though, you're not one of those people. If you think you're one of those people, you're probably fooling yourself, right? But like, yes, I get what you're saying. But that was, but that's interesting to me because I, I saw that.

I actually read that book while we sleep. That's right. And I, and that's like the percentage of people who can actually do that is staggeringly low. You're the, the exception that proves the rule. Yeah. Well, how much sleep do you get tonight?

I, I need like at least eight. Yeah. I can function on seven and if it's less than seven, I'm trash. And are you edgy? Yes. Like you're moody? Yes. Okay, so me too. Yeah, yeah. I need to sleep.

And like, obviously, when you have kids or you're working, like there's, you know, I was just like, just at this talk and I had to like get up at four in the morning and catch a flight, there's definitely like, I can do it. Yeah, of course. I just, I think what you realize is you're like, what are the conditions that more often than not, I do my best.

Yes. Right? Like, the other day we, we took our kids to this like water park and so we spend the night and then we drove back and I came here to the office. We got back at like two in the afternoon. And there was something I had to write. And so I get in the office, normally my routine is I get up early, I go on this walk, I write in the morning that I'm done. But for whatever reason, this day it was flipped. I got in the office at two. And as I sat down to record

it to write, it was just garbage. Like I wasn't feeling it. And it was, it's actually, I'm actually really glad it happened because I was like, oh yeah, this is why I have my routine because who I am at 2PM is a fundamentally different person than who I am at 7AM, as a writer. I can do a phone call at 8AM and be just as good on the phone at 2PM or whatever, right? I can run at those, but as far as who I need to be to do my main thing, which is writing, that's the time I have to do it at. And understanding that and

then building around that is really important. So it's like, if I'm trying to write it too, and it's not happening, I don't like beat myself up and go like, why am I not good? You know, wire, well, maybe I'm an imposter. I don't think that. I just understand that I am not setting myself up for success in that environment. And ideally you wanna make, you wanna build your life and make your decisions when it's in your control around the times and places and tools that make you the person that you wanna be.

And that's like a huge part of it. So it's like, I think sometimes people think it's about discipline in the moment, which it is, but it's also about the discipline way before that. A good example actually with sleep is like, people go like, I'm not a morning person or I have trouble getting out of bed in the morning. And that's actually not a matter of discipline.

The discipline is, you should have gone to bed earlier, right? That's my question, man. When do you go to bed? Yeah. If it's at 10, 10, 30, then I'm like on top of it and if it's lingering and lagging, that's like that lapse of discipline doesn't feel like a big lapse of discipline, but the, the next day or the day after, that's the lagging indicator of whether I made that right decision. And I think this is true for lots of things.

It's like someone's sobriety is not just simply like in this moment, do you drink or not drink, do you accept, you know, the pass or not the pass, but it's, did you decide to go to a meeting six days ago or five days ago or four days ago or three days ago, or five days ago, or four days ago, or three days ago, right? It's when you start blowing off the little things, the lagging, or the, when you start blowing off the little things leading up to it, that you're setting yourself up for an inevitable failure or lapse of discipline when it really counts.

Yeah, and I think, literally that is the theme of discipline is destiny, right? The little things are the big things in life, in your career, in your relationship, in everything. And that's something that took me so long to realize in my life. You know, and when it comes to drinking, it's like if you're not on top of your sobriety, your addict is doing push lots in the park, push lots in the park. It's getting ready for you, for that moment where it jumps you. And I think I always have to be careful with myself about when I am feeling good, when I do feel like I have an utter control.

Because it's always going to be there. I'm always going to be an addict. It's just where I, you know, where I used to put my ant time and energy into things that were self-destructive. I now put them into things that are creative and, you know, going to help me move my life and my family's life forward. And that can be a huge asset. Yeah. So what once was kind of destroying my life has now changed my life for the better

in ways I could never have imagined. Five years ago, I was in rehab in Arizona. I had no idea what my life was going to hold. And it's actually insane when they talk about the promises and about all these things that will happen. If you just love yourself, if you just follow this program, if you just do the hard work and even me, it's like, I hope so. I mean, I guess everything else isn't working.

So I guess I'll try this. It's insane. I look back and I just go, how was that five years? Like the things that have changed in my life is just magical. There's a great quote, all growth is a leap in the dark. Right?

And so like all change, all process involves a certain amount of trust. Like someone says, hey, you want to be a writer, do these things. Right? So someone says, hey, you want to be sober, do these things. Hey, you want to have a good marriage, do these things. And you can be like, yeah, yeah, sure, right?

Or you can be like, okay, I will actually do those things, right? And when you do those things, when you trust that process, it usually works out. More often than not, it works out. No one's going to, no one can tell you how quickly it will work out or how easy it will be, But like the process is the sort of tried and true process for a reason. And it requires the person to have both the courage and the discipline to sort of go, okay, I trust you, I trust this.

And also, I'm going to listen to this, I'm going to stick with this. And if you can do that, then yeah, magical things are on the other side of it, but the problem is we have doubts or we go, I'll do it 20% of the way or I'll do it sometimes, and then we don't get the thing, and then we go, see, it didn't work. Exactly, because we forgot the final step, and it was the hardest step for me and it's actually one that

that I applied to my work all the time which is surrender and letting go and allowing those things to come to you. You know, I always tell people they're like, I want to be an actor and I want to do this. I was like, like, the only reason I am where I am in my career or that I have one is because I always made a promise to my young self. I said, if I'm 80 years old or 80 years old or jobless, at least I will have made my 12 year old self proud. Sure. You know, because this is what I knew I just had this knowing I had to do.

I can't promise you that it will happen when you want it to or how you want it to. But if you love it, you know, with everything that you are, and you do it over and over and over again, it will happen for you. I believe that. If you study, if you train, if you love it, and the irony in it is that the love and the joy is in the process of doing it. That's the most important thing is once you actually fall in love with what you're doing, the outcomes just happen. The Dell Technologies Black Friday in July event is on with limited quantity deals on top business PCs with Windows 11 Pro. Save on select Vostro laptops with built-in OS recovery fingerprint readers and antivirus

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for in terms of credit. The Angie's List you know and trust is now Angie, and we're so much more than just a list. We still connect you with top local pros and show you ratings and reviews, but now we also let you compare up front prices on hundreds of projects and book a service instantly. We can even handle the rest of your project from start to finish. So remember, Angie's List is now Angie, and we're here to get your job done right. Get started at Angie.com. That's ANGI, or download the app today. That's the paradoxical, almost insane thing that you have to get people to accept, which

is that you will actually have better results when you stop thinking about results or even wanting results. I know that's the most fucked up shit about it. Excuse my language. But like, it's like it is so that is the most fucked up part about it is the second. And it's the true with like, it's actually, it's true with how I met my wife. Yeah. When I met her and I was fine, like, you know what? Like, I'm good. Like, I know what? Like, I'm good. Like, I'm just gonna just, I'm good. I'm good on my own.

I don't need this. You know, every job I've gone into that and said that, like, look, I'm grateful for the opportunity. I don't need it. You know, I'm gonna go give my performance. I'm not here to get a job. Whatever happens happens. Those are the ones that end up happening.

And the ones that I was like, oh, I got this. This is mine. I have to get this. I have to get never. Yeah. And I just think that end up happening. And the ones that I was like, oh, I got this. This is mine. I have to get this. I have to get never. And I just think that's so fun. It's kind of like golf. The harder you are trying to hit the ball in a very specific place and show people how good you are at doing it,

that's when you shank it. That's when you clip the top of it or embarrass yourself. Do you know what I mean? And it is weird. It almost sounds like a lie that successful people are making up to deceive people who are behind them on the path, but it's true. My books have sold better and I've had more success.

That is directly correlated with how little I have thought about those things or cared about those things or aimed for those things like I think almost entirely about what do I want to say what am I trying to do what's what what what what is this project like Am I happy? Did did I win or succeed when I turned it in? Right? And then everything else is extra. Once I got to that place, all of a sudden, all the things that I really wanted before that I was aiming for very specifically

but was not getting, they just started happening. So here's a question for you. Once that started happening, right? All the things that you wanted before. Sure. And you start you wanted before. Sure. And you start getting those things. Yeah. Do you find yourself having to retrain yourself

to not hoard those things that you get? You know, because I also feel like you didn't want those things, right? Or you didn't want them, then you didn't want them. Then they came. Yeah. And now you get to enjoy them. Sure. I think the trap is trying to build, you know what I mean? Trying to keep them. Yeah, totally. It's like, okay,

like as an author, you want to hit number one on the best cell. You want to sell lots of copies. So the more you think about that, the less energy you're actually focused on, like, making something good, making something true. Right? So, as soon as you stop thinking about that, you actually have more energy, more effort, more purity in the thing. And then let's say that actually gets you the thing. You hit number one and it's selling out crazy.

What can happen is now you're like, that's normal. That's what I deserve. Exactly. That's who I am. And now you're thinking about keeping it. Yeah. And you're already, you've already left the pure, present, uh, inner focused state that unlocked the thing in the first place. So, so I try to think of it as like, ephemeral and not mine. And like, my job is just to do what I

do. That's the gift of that. That's the, that's success. And like my job is just to do what I do. That's the gift. Of a... That's the... That's success. And then the other stuff, you get it or you don't. And it's... The Stoics have this great word they call them preferred indifference. So it's like, it's better to be working than not working, to sell lots of copies than no copies, to be rich than poor, right? All... It's better to have those things than not have those things, but you're at a place where you're good either way. Yes.

Right? And if you can get there, then I think that's the place where you do like the good work. 100%. But it must be weird as an actor because like I have a lot more control over my destiny than you do. That's a fiss-ful shit.

Right? Like you, someone picks you, they allow you to do the thing or not, have a lot more control over my destiny than you do. That's a fiss-bull shit. Right. Like, you, someone picks you, they allow you to do the thing or not, then they tell you to a certain degree how to do the thing, then someone edits the thing, then someone markets the thing. How have you come to practice surrender in acceptance? Like how have you narrowed your focus on what you do as an actor? So why I always wanted to be an actor was because I love telling stories and I wanted to inspire people. That's what I loved. It was never about everything else that came with it.

Some people might want to be famous, they might be rich, they might just want to get the hell out of where they're from. I'd be lying if I didn't say that finances played a part in it. Like, if I couldn't make money doing this, I don't know if I would. That's just me being completely blunt. Like, I love it, but I never saw myself on stage doing it for five cents, you know, or like a dollar. Like, I need to provide for my family. But that wasn't, but the impetus for doing this was truly because I genuinely loved it, but it would also be wrong of me to deny the fact that when things go well, it means that there's more opportunities to do what I love. Being an Austin is so amazing for me because I do have a great group of friends in Los Angeles,

and I think it's a great, you know, there's a lot of great stuff to it. I just didn't want to be reminded every single day about my business and all this stuff. Like for me, I live getting to retreat and going to work on, you know, for me, for me, writing is a big, big part of my life as well. And me and my partners, we develop television shows and we write scripts. So we attach different, you know, you put together a package and you'll page it to big studios or whatever. That's how I take my control back. You know, is Kate, as opposed to waiting for, you know, my version of one thing I realized is that you can't, you can't allow somebody else to inspire you.

You cannot try to recreate their career. Sure. So, for example, Will Smith and I are doing bad boys together, right? Like I grew up and he's a hot topger now. But like I grew up absolutely loving Will. And just from my experience with Will, he is just an incredible human being, an incredible business guy. We're all human beings and we all make mistakes. But I can allow his career to inspire me as a human being

and as an actor. But I can't go, where's my version of this movie? Yeah, you know? Sure, because that's not how what makes him special in his right was that he was where he was at the time that he was. You can't recreate something that's already happened. Exactly. Yeah. So for me, knowing that, it's like, okay, well, what are the stories that I actually want to tell? And I'm going to create those opportunities for myself. I do get what you're saying though. It's picking where one lives. Again, the Stokes should say, you should be able to be above jealousy and comparison and fomo and all these things wherever you live. Of course. Great. Like somebody should be able to be sober in the middle of a nightclub or a bar.

But also the nightclub in the bar is literally designed to prompt you to want to drink, right? And people around you are offering a drink. So it's not a great place for a person who wants to be sober. I have found that choosing where one lives and how one designs one debt one's day is really powerful in terms of helping you be the person that you know you want to be. Yes. And living around people that are not you're not competing with and actually don't really care about what you do at all. I find helps me be more pure and independent in what I do because there's not this sort of warping influence of like how did they get that? Or should I be doing that?

Or why are they doing more than me? It's like, I'm here doing my own thing. And because it's out of sight, it's out of mind and it's out of mind, and it helps me be better. And it's funny. Hollywood, I feel like, creates the illusion of competition. Sure.

Like social media. Yes. Whereas, in reality, it's not as competitive as people make it out to be. There are roles that I am so right for. And there will be a very few other guys, my age, my type, that are right for that. Like in that sense, I guess you could say we're competing against each other. But in reality, like it's not that. And I think that there's this feeling of totally perpetuated by insecurities of just, I have to one up, I have to act better, I have to be better. And it's just,

I don't, that's not the father I want to be, that and it's just, I don't, that's not the father I want to be, that's not the husband I want to be, that's not the man I want to be. And that's part of why I think, I do think leaving home, even as a child can be a huge life hack. Yeah, I think just like broadening your horizons and being somewhere new, and Lauren and I am a wife, we've, we had never been to Austin, you know,

and I'd heard such amazing things, and once we got here, it was just like, oh man, I feel like this is how life was back in the 70s. You know, back before everything, it's just that you go to certain places, even this town, I'm just like, are you kidding me? Like, right over to a fucking bookstore? Like this is incredible.

Like I love this. Also, there's something to be said too about, I think there's this, when you's this, when you wanna do a certain professor, everyone is in New York, or LA, or whatever. And because everyone's there, there is competition in the sense that there's only so many apartments. So everything's more expensive, right?

And I think being able to live in a place, although Austin is becoming very expensive. So you can do it anywhere, but living below your means or living outside of the bubble or the scene where you're not also competing in terms of status with other people, it allows you to make better artistic or creative or business decisions because you're being much more rational about them.

You're not like, hey, everyone, like in my industry, you have to drive this kind of car or you're a loser, right? And then it's like, well, you have to work however many days a year, just to pay for that thing. And then so you're not thinking, like when I decided, when I went to my post, I was like, I want to write a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy. They were like, what? You know, that sounds like a terrible idea. And they offered me less money for it. Right. And if I was living a different lifestyle than I was, the decision to say, I don't really care, I'll take whatever the offer is, wouldn't have been possible. You know what I mean?

100%. I mean, that is the key, I think, just to living a nice life, but also to, especially for people who like artists, actors, authors, you know, people where it's nothing is guaranteed. You're almost like living a little bit of an entrepreneur lifestyle as well, where it's just you, you can make money very fast and very quickly, but you can also go years, you know, without you don't. And especially if you want to be choosy about your craft. Well, that's, so this is what I said to my manager always, is I said the greatest power I have as an actor

is to be able to sit back and choose. And I've always had this mindset. And it served me well so far, which is I would rather be a part of a great film and not be the lead, then be the lead of a piece of shit film and get paid way more. And I feel like I've consistently throughout my life have been able to turn down money jobs for the ones that ironically pay you nothing, but to work with great people. And it is slowly but surely continued to produce opportunities and things that I've never experienced. And only in hindsight, I can see that. You know, I didn't see it at the time. It was very frustrating to me being like, God,

I really want to take this job, but I can't. But that takes a lot of discipline, right? They're like, we want you for this. We will pay you a lot for this. And the alternative is not working, right? Like if you're a person who wants to work, you want to be, you know, you want to be wanted. And then obviously you want money to say like, no, to say that's almost right, but not right. That's like the hardest thing to do in the world.

Like for me, when I get offered like talks and stuff, and it's like, well I wasn't doing anything on Tuesday the 17th, you know? But the discipline to say, I'm gonna leave that space open for something potentially better, which might be nothing, I struggle with that all the time. 100% I think all of us do.

It's really, really difficult. But also, it's not that difficult if you live responsibly as you possibly can. Yeah, that's it. Because for me, it was just like, man, it would be nice, but I don't need it. And to me, those offers, I don't even consider them offers because to me, it's like, the first thing I always say is, okay, don't tell me what I'm gonna, don't tell me what the offers.

If money wasn't an object, would I do this? Interesting. What I do this. Yeah. Right, because it's not hard if you didn't know about it. Like, if you were just like, I wasn't doing anything on the 17th, you'd be like, I'm not doing anything on the 17th. The hard part is someone told you, do you want to do nothing on the 17th? Or do you want to do this thing that's worth this amount of money?

Now it's hard because it feels like you're choosing the irresponsible choice versus the responsible choice. When actually the responsible choice may well be to say, no. Luckily, I think now, too, actors get away with a lot more shit than they used to, because I think there's so much content out there. And to a way that's actually really nice, because you can take risks on things that perhaps there's no way you would have touched back in the day. Sure. Because back in the day when it was like theatrical releases, if it didn't do well, you know,

you maybe had one or two more shots, but that was it. Whereas now it's like, if it's bad, nobody sees it, if it's good, maybe people see it. And it might take a long time for them to see. I mean, Vikings is a great example of that. I mean, we started that show. I mean, the first episode, basically, we had the 10th year anniversary like last week, like, you know, 10 years ago.

And people are like, have you heard of this new show? Yeah. And I literally think security guy at the airport yesterday pulled me over. He's like, dude, I'm just finishing season four. I'm like, what the fuck are you? Like, we need to see like six years ago. I need to see when I could have read a ghost.. Right, right, right, right, yeah. But he was, no, it was so nice.

And obviously that's great too, but it's just crazy because there's so much out there, it just takes a very, very long time. Well, it's like, do you have a scarcity mindset about what you do or a abundance mindset? Like I have a quote in the obstacles away from Richard Branson where he's like, opportunities are like buses,

there's always one coming around. That is so hard. That feels almost egotistical and delusional. Yes, 100%. 100%. So because I think a lot of people get into acting or writing or any of the creative professions or anything because they want to be wanted,

they want to feel good, they want to be validated. And so to go, no, actually like lots of people, like you're gonna have more offers than you know what to do with, right? That feels preposterously egotistical to believe. So when you're like, I'm gonna pass on this sure thing right now because I'm actually confident there's gonna be better stuff in the future,

that feels irresponsible. It does. But it's probably truer than the alternative, especially as you said, that we do actually live in a world where there's a lot more content, a lot more opportunities, a lot lower, bigger margin for air than there was in the past where it's like, yeah, if you don't take this, if you don't take this shot, you'll never get another one. By saying no, you're saying yes to abundance. Yes. You know, and it's a very, yeah, it's a lot easier said than done.

But it does feel good sometimes to say no. Yes. Well, it's very empowering. Very. I actually don't need this. Yes. No, you can't own me for this. It's like, huh, that feels great. Well, you know who Molly Bloom is?

I'm on the corner of the street, like dancing for change. You don't want for the job. You don't Molly Bloom, like Molly's game, the Aaron turns the movie. Yes. She was telling me, so like the premise of that movie is basically over on this podcast. She was just here like three, four days ago. I would have loved to come for that. She was saying like, the premise of the movie

and in real life is basically like the government was like, if you turn on all these people, we'll give you the five million dollars of your ill-gotten gains back, right? And she was like, no, I'm not gonna do it. And we were talking about how like, obviously that's an extremely difficult thing to do. But like, how one way to think about that is how rich you are, afterwards, even though you have no money, yeah, to be the kind of person that could say no to

$5 million, you have to be very rich, right? And there's different ways to be rich, right? Like, to be very powerful, very in control of yourself, very control of your wants and needs to be rich, right? Like, to be very powerful, very in control of yourself, very control of your wants and needs to be able to be like, my ethics or my principles are more important to me than literally millions of dollars, right? And so that's the stand she ends up taking, which I'm sure wasn't easy, but like, she leaves that not feeling like I just lost $5 million, but that actually I am more powerful than $5 million. I think that's the way you told me the same thing when he would pass on these romcom roles

that were going from, you know, it was $5, $10, $15 million. He created a day. He had insane amounts of money that at first that was terrifying, but then the other side of that is like, no, no, no, I decide what I do and you can't really buy me. And to get to that place is a pretty magical place. It's a very privileged place, but it's a magical place.

Exactly. And that's the other thing is like, it's a privileged place to be. Yes. But it took years of also doing that to get to that privileged place. That makes sense. I feel like when people start speaking whatever it's at a function or something or on television, they're talking about how they live through gratitude and blah, blah, blah. It's just like, well, that's easy for you to say. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, but to be fair, those, those same people have been doing that for a long time. For a long time. Yes. It's just that you're only seeing them now. So, yeah, if it's a new attitude, then it's fake. But if it's that's what

got you. Yeah. Exactly. Although, although it's like one of the ways you get to a place where you can say no, is by saying yes to a lot of things for a long time. That's the other side that people miss. It's like now I can be like, I don't wanna do that. Like, or I only wanna do it on these terms in this way. That's because I said yes to so much for so long. And I made commitments and sacrifices to get to the point where you are

more in control of your own destiny than you were at an early point in your career. Right? Like it's all work for free. I won't complain. I won't be entitled. You do that for a long time. Then you get to a place where you're like, now I'm good. Now I have leverage. I'm going to use that leverage. So otherwise what's the point of the leverage? Yeah. And in the same way, your yeses were just too, jick early on your nose are still too strategic or you know, now. So yeah, I mean, I, that's kind of how I operate as well.

Now is it just, um, and I love working. I got to look. It's my favorite thing in the world to do. That's why it's hard, but that makes it hard to say no. Because you like the alternative of not working feels bad. Yeah, and I feel incredibly guilty because I know how privileged I am to even be offered anything. Because I remember what it was like when I was offered nothing.

Yes. And I just wished, I'm like, God, how can this guy, how do you get any actor playing, give him a job, right? How is this guy even complaining about this job? Like, I'd die for this job. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting.

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Hey, prime members, you can listen early and add free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon music app today. So, speaking of stosism, it's a little on the nose, but you know you play the character with a stoke, they, it's so funny and I learned that from your book. How? Do you think that she got it?

Well, she used a bunch of famous Greek and Roman names for all the characters. And... But Kato was a good one. That's the same thing. That's probably an illusion. I mean, what's actually funny is, so the founding of America, the founders would all write these letters. That was like how they would communicate.

They would write these letters that would be published in newspapers. Yeah. And they would all pick names, like their fake names, because they wouldn't write it as like, Thomas Jefferson or James Madison or Alexander Hamilton. They would all pick fake names. And they would pick like, Kato or At the Titus or Marcus or they would pick,

that was just the name. So she was probably also doing that a little bit, or just like a sort of fake name thing, but yeah, I just, I'm wondered if you know, if you picked up on that. I did. Yeah, I did, when I started learning about it, I was like, that's really interesting.

And then somebody told me that Ludwig means my last name means famous warrior. Oh, and you're like, well, I have played a lot of famous warriors interesting. Yeah. Kato's one of the more interesting stills because he doesn't really write anything. Like, there's no...

How do we know anything about him? You can't go get like his essays on philosophy. But he, to the other stills, was the Gumber 1 stills and it's because of who he was. Like, it was how he lived. Like, he lived the stills principles. His peer is Cicero and Cicero writes all the great essays on stoicism. He's how we know about a lot of the ancient stoics. But he actually

like when the rubber met the road sort of tended to struggle. And when things got hard, Kato was like, even beyond what the philosophy, you would expect the philosophy to be able to bring out of a person. That's pretty, that's pretty, because like anything like these even, even philosophy has to be tried and tested, right? Yeah. To an extent, like, like, does this work, right? I would imagine that at the beginning, but for a human being to have that kind of faith in something. Yeah. I mean, so Kato is famous ultimately for his suicide. Do you know this story? No.

So, okay, so Cato, if it's in your books, I've heard the same. Cato, and the big clash in the ancient world, I think we even have, it's in the wall somewhere, I can't see. This is a great book that I just read about Cato and Cicero, but basically it's the clash in the ancient world. Caesar is the ambitious, talented, like plays to the crowd, but doesn't really have a conscience just as out for himself.

And Kato is this sort of like principle, sort of old school, like basically one wants to be emperor, one wants to preserve the Republic, and there's this is clash. And they end up fighting, and there's a lot, but in the end, basically, Caesar wins. And Kato is faced with the choice of basically submitting to Caesar, and Caesar would have forgiven him or like, probably blessed him, but he would have demanded a certain subservience from him.

And Cato refuses. He has this big dinner party. And they talk about philosophy. It goes on for hours and hours. And then he says, goodbye to everyone. He puts them on ships and says, you got to get out of here before Caesar gets you. And then he goes to bed. He wakes up in the middle of the night.

He reads this book about, about, about Socrates. And then he grabs his sword and he disembowels himself, like, shh, up the middle. And when he falls, like, you know, collapses to the ground, people rush in and they, like, they try, they stop him. They stop him from totally doing it. And they stitch him back up. And he wakes up in the middle of this. This is like, this could be an one thing. This could be inviting space. Um, he wakes up in the middle, sees that they're trying to save him, but refuses to, you know,

basically exist in a world that is so the opposite of how he wants it to be, and he, um, he rips it open with his hands, and that's how he goes out. Come on. That's how he goes out. And so that was, so Kato's defiance of Caesar is this sort of monument for all time, Caesar is this sort of monument for all time, ultimately of the mission of the republic. So Caesar wins and Cato dies, but that sort of example stands for thousands of years,

and this is ultimately what the founders draw on as they're creating America. It's like, they're picking up the torture, the baton, or the defiance of Cato in those last moments. So who was the original stoic? The original stoic is this guy named Xeno. Xeno, yes. So Xeno loses everything in a shipwreck.

He washes up in Athens and ends up founding this school of philosophy. And then this is actually funny. So this is in Athens in Greece. And so that's, it's the invention of philosophy. It eventually makes its way to Rome, like several generations later. And Kato the elder, which is Kato the younger,

who's probably, who your character is named after, that's Kato's great, great grandfather. He's there when the philosophers are like doing their talks, and he was like even more old school than Cato, and he watched one of the philosophers argue one thing one day, and then the next day argue the opposite of that thing, like a sort of a philosophical trick, and he's so appalled by this,

that he orders that they be exiled from Rome and philosophy be banned. Having no idea that his great, great grandson would later become one of the great philosophers all the time. It's pretty nuts. How many books do you think you read on Stoicism? A lot. A lot. I actually tend to read less on Stoicism these days and I just try to read about interesting people, people I like, people I

dislike, you know, times I like, times I dislike, and I try to look for the ideas of the philosophy in stories that I admire or am appalled by. Yeah, I mean, I saw that so much in discipline as destiny. Yeah, I mean, I loved all those choices that you had. And it's one of those books that you could read over and over again. That's what I love about your books. I feel like you can read them over and over again. In fact, I would argue you should read them over and over again

because there's different, all these different stories every time I read it, I'm reading a different book. Well, the Stokes talk about that too, actually, Santa says we have to linger on the works of the master thinkers, like we have to go over them over and over again. But there's this poet Eric Cleedis through the Stokes, like he would say. The reason we reread things is that he says, we never step in the same river twice. The river is different, but also the man is different.

Yeah, wow. Right, and so the words are exactly the same when I pick up Marcus Relius in 2006, right, in my college apartment. And when I'm three years ago, in March 2020, I pick up Marcus Relius, as the world is sort of melting down. And it strikes me, oh, wait,

Marcus Relius was writing during the plague. When he talks about plagues, and what they do to people, and how it can destroy your character, he wasn't like being metaphorical. He was talking about what we were about to go through, right? And you realize, oh, I would have had no ability to understand the material on this level if the events of the world

weren't forcing that top of mind, right? And it's like what you read when you read the Stoics as a single person, and then you read the Stoics when you have kids, you go, oh, this is a person who buried multiple children before they reached adulthood, and you go, oh, like he's, he's grieving when he writes this passage. And he's, he's coming at it from a person who's been, you know, had their heart broken, but is trying not to be a broken person, right? And

you go, oh, I, you just never, it would have been impossible for you to comprehend what was happening at the levels, the levels and the levels below, and the text until you had some frame of reference in your own experience. And so it is really important that you go back and you watch a movie that hit you when you were 15 years old. You watch it again when you're older because you realize all these things were happening

that you didn't know there was references to films that you hadn't seen. And there's quotes from people that you never heard of. And the same goes for books. And I think one of the things I like to do is go back and reread books because I notice, why did I highlight that passage? Like, why did I care about that then? Now I care about it even more. Now it doesn't matter to me at all.

You get different things out of the stuff when you come back to it. Tony Hopkins was telling me that he only reads books now. He hasn't even watched any Anthony Hopkins. He's a big fan of the Stoics actually. Yeah, I wish I had known about it when we worked together because we worked together probably six years now, but he was such a great, I mean, talk about another guy who like lives by recovery. Yes, and is a very, from the people that I've known in the conversations I've had with him, is a very sort of quiet, but prolific, like, ally and supporter of people who are where he was at earlier times in his journey.

He's a very much embodiment of that idea of being of service. Being of service, you know, and that's, you can do it. You can be, I think the problem with me is everything I always wanna do 100,000% right? It's like it's like everything I wanna be all in, you know, if I'm gonna to serve, I'm going to serve every single person in the world.

It's like, it's ludicrous, right? But it's like, I've got to put your mask on first. Yeah, right? And I've realized like, no, you can serve by just being kind to somebody on the street. You know, it's like, there's, you have no idea how that's going to affect somebody or their family when they, when they get home, but you can also serve just by having

your shit together, being a disabled, be 100%. Well, that's funny, because in recovery, that's what they talk about, right? It's like, it's like, I, all I can do is be an example for people that are there. Yeah. But I can't, I can't tell them that they need to do anything. That's up to them. But I can be an example. Tony is the living and breathing embodiment of that. Even while we were shooting, it was a small independent film that I did with him and Ray Lehoed back in the day in Canada.

He was like, he'd finished working and you go to an AA meeting. And he would be sponsoring people there. And it was just like, it was surreal. He's an incredible human being. Well, talking about being up, okay, there's some clip. I think it's maybe on Jimmy Kimmel or something and he talks about how he pulls up like a photo of himself when he's like a little kid sometimes and he just goes, see? We did okay okay man.

I love him. And it's a nice way of redefining, like because you can be so unhappy in the present moment, you can be hard on yourself, you can wonder why you didn't do more, why you did, you know, why you did X, Y, or Z, the things you didn't fulfill. But like compared, as you said,

compared to the 12 year old version of yourself, you're fucking crushing it. It's ridiculous. You did, I wanted to write one book. That was like, you know what I mean? It's like, if I could do this one time, wouldn't that be incredible? How lucky would that be?

And then you do it, and you don't feel that way, you tell yourself, well, what if I do it 20 more times? And so if you can go back and remember what your definition of enough was or success or like a profound gift would be, you can realize how far you already are past that. Yeah, and if I could go back to my younger self, like especially in my teenage years, and I feel like I always thought that I would mistake

like gratitude for complacency. Yes, right. And I'm like, they're so different. I'm like, you can stop beating yourself up and still be an ambitious person. You know, you can actually do better work because you're not, you're not wasting time on the parts that don't matter. Only focus on what you control.

Exactly. And I, and I, I wish so badly I could have been like, just let it go. Just allow this to happen. You're doing great. Like just, it's all going to be good. Just focus on what you can control and let the rest go. And I feel like more people in this world need to hear that, especially that's why I love your work so much. And I feel like it's so timeless. But you've done,

you know, Russell Brand really say, I don't know if you've ever met, have you ever met Russell Brand before? I actually haven't either, but people who I talked to said that he's a great dude. But he, um, um, he released like an AA book. Yeah, yeah. He has like a recovery, right? And I read it and it was excellent. You know, it was humorous and it was great. And it was like for the, for somebody who, the funniest thing, if people like, well, like,

how do I know if I'm an alcohol, like, it's like, well, look, if you're asking that question, you know, he's definitely probably, it's probably, regular people are not asking themselves. Yeah, exactly. It's like, that's the thing. But it seems probably to get a lot of asking themselves. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. Yeah. But it seems like, no, no alcoholics are just this. Yeah.

And that's not made in a way. You read Russell Brands' recovery book. It's a great way for somebody who's like, just trying to understand it without like getting caught up on the God thing and all of that stuff. But I feel like that's what you've done with stoicism. You've made it, you've made it. Like, I don't believe that I could have read just from me, could have read some of the books you have read and digested it the way you have, but I can read your books and it speaks to me tenfold. You know, I feel like I understand it. Because you simplify

it, you make it relatable and I recommend your books to absolutely everybody. Anybody's going through a hard time. Like even people in recovery, I'm like, read about the books, read these books because it's truly that you can draw so many parallels between the two. You know, there's a very weird moment. I think it's in silence of the lambs, we're Hannibal Lecter quotes, he's like, you know, as Marcus Aurelia said, and you totally, you just give over the first time. Yeah, there's

like, there's a very weird like Anthony Hopkins, Marcus Aurelia's connection, whereas like the worst villain in the history of film. It's pretty cool. I'm looking up. Yeah, yeah. No, he's the best. So there's, there's saying no, that's obviously a big part of it. How do you deal with rejection? Oh, man. Because that's got to be the worst part of your profession. It's not just that you don't necessarily control all parts of it, but that other people get to tell you you can't do the thing that you wanted to do.

No. you can't do the thing that you wanted to do. No, I, so I don't want to just out of respect for the person, but I just worked with this incredibly talented, one of my favorite, A-List actors, and we were just hanging out in our trailer together, and I was talking to him about exactly that. And I was just like, man, I'm very jealous of you because I feel like you hit it. Because the 90s, when I grew up, to me, some of those are the best films ever. And it's what everyone thinks that about their generation of films.

That's true. But to be fair, my favorite film is like Butch Cassie and the Sun films ever. Sure, it's what everyone thinks that about their generation of films. That's true. But to be fair, my favorite film is like, Butch Cassie and the Sun is Kid. But in terms of like the 90s, I felt like in so many ways that was like the peak. It's indie films. Yeah, it was like there was a lot of great stuff coming up.

The mid budget, like awesome cool movies. Maybe not the best film ever was in the 90s, but I would say that there was a lot of good films that inspired me to be one to become an actor. Things you can't make now. Exactly. And that's what I said. I was like, I am so jealous of you

because all the things that inspired me to want to become an actor, now I'm like, well, are they? Like what? I'm here now and I'm ready. Like I'm ready to do it. And like, I'm actually in a place in my career where I could do it.

Can't. And then we were talking about rejection and, you know, and he said to me, I still fight for roles. Sure. Everyone does. And now I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah. I was in there. I still fight for roles. And I was like, don't tell me that. Don't tell me that right now. You're telling me this is never ends. Yeah. Because of course, it like I've seen it in myself that you know before I was just this kid and there was thousands of people going out for a role then there were hundreds then there was five. And then those five kind of went away and a new

five came and I always managed to just be there. But like it never goes to zero. Because they're all like what if you can't do it? They're obviously thinking about other potentials. They had to think about what it was. 100% and somewhere out there, there's one super talented a-list actor losing a job to another one. And then, and it's never going,

it's not like you reach this destination. And suddenly, I'm there. I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want, and everyone only offers what I want to me. It's just that's never going to happen. And of course it's not. So for me, it's that knowing that is actually really encouraging because when it comes to rejection, Brian Cranston said this in his book, and I think you can apply this to pretty much anything in life, but when it comes to acting, I'm there to give a performance, not to get a job.

Sure. And so often we imagine what, it's not just the job, when you lose it, you lose the job, and the fantasy that came with that job. Oh my God. Once I get this job, I'm going to finally be happy. And that'll be a lister. Then I'll have to care about money, money ever again. And first off, does not an a list where I've met yet that doesn't worry about money and feel like they're finally good, which is amazing, but it's just what happens.

And that's just not a thing. So for me, I lean into it. For me now, it's like, in the same way that I said, all the jobs I've gotten were the ones where I'm like, I don't need this. Would it be great? Absolutely, but I don't need this. What do you do? Great. Absolutely. But I don't need this. It would be great to do these things, but if not, there's

be another one that comes along. It's a hard thing to do, especially when it's a role you feel like you can absolutely do justice by. But weirdly enough, I've yet to, in my entire career, I have yet to lose a role that I've gone, damn, I really, really wish I got that. Which is, by the way, how the mind works, right? Like, people go, I don't wanna regret this

for the rest of my life. And it's like, that never happens. It's never. Your mind always finds a way that what you did is the best thing to do. Yeah, so why can't you give yourself, like, you go through some devastating breakup. 20 years later, you're like,

I'm so glad that happened. You know that inevitably that's where you're gonna end up. But then you're like, but I would like to torture myself for at least the first four or five years before I get there. And it's like, no, you can just give yourself, you know how you're gonna feel about this

in a long enough time from now. So why don't you give yourself that gift now? Now, exactly. It's hard to, especially when you're like, a really ambitious person. Sure. Because I feel like sometimes, there's just this immense pressure.

And to me, stoicism has always been the way out of that, that pressure I put on myself and everything. It gets you down to the root of like, oh wait, why am I actually doing this? What's actually something in my control or something that's not in my control? And that's the main thing, is like, what is and what isn't? What's in my control? Knowing that I show up to every single opportunity, 100% prepared the way I like to that's in my control. What they decide is not up to me what's in my control is what I create you know or the offers because I know it's really cool we're in this place where it's like. There will be some great offers that come by and there'll be a lot of bad ones yeah and then there'll be stuff that I fight for yeah that's kind of just how it is forever. And then there will be stuff that I fight for. And that's kind of just how it is forever.

And every opportunity, you just have to look at a different way and just see is this something that's going to elevate me and make me feel great when I'm a part of it or not, regardless of money or anything like that. When the acceptance of rejection is so hard because you don't get where you are, whether it's an entrepreneur, a creative or or an artist by accepting no. So it's like, people said it wasn't going to work. They said,

you were never going to make it. They said, you were too short, you were too fat, you were too this gender, that gender. And you got where you got by not taking no for an answer. And then eventually you arrive at a place where you have to practice with the stokes called the Art of Acre essence where you're like, actually, I do have to accept. I do have to take no as an answer, because this isn't in my control. And perhaps fighting for this thing, maybe I will succeed, but it's actually not the right thing for me. There's a great expression I love. I heard where it's like, don't run to catch trains. You miss some of the trains. You don't actually know that getting on that train

is like that could be the train that crashes. You could meet the person you're meant to marry on the next train. Just coming to terms with the fact that sometimes it doesn't go your way. Sometimes you don't get it. That feels so dangerously like complacency and like, you know, that expression, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. I think we're nervous of being the person that accepts rejection that that will make us and nobody or nothing. But I think if you actually have some confidence and you're like, I'll make the next thing work.

Like maybe this one wasn't meant for me. That's the attitude that actually gets you the next shot and the next shot and let's you keep going. Have you read the power of intention? No. So my mom just sent me this book and I just finished it yesterday. I'm re-reading it right now.

It started this morning. I think what you just said was so well said. And you're not this complacent nobody. If you're worried about that, it's like, complacency is probably not your problem. Exactly. Like, you have the art of intentions. It's like, you intend to do something and you're going to do something.

It's just, maybe you just miss this train and maybe that's exactly what you needed to miss. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, thank you so much. This was awesome. I know the man.

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, dude. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.