The Daily Stoic - Adrian Grenier On Recovering From Being Famous

Episode Date: September 13, 2023

Ryan speaks with Adrian Grenier in the second of a two-part episode about what it’s really like to be famous, why and how he quit acting, how Adrian’s lifestyle was shaped for the worse by his role on Entourage, how is living a better life now for his family, and more.Adrian Grenier is an actor, director, producer, podcaster, entrepreneur, and musician. He is best known for his role as Vincent Chase on the show Entourage and his roles in The Devil Wears Prada and Clickbait, as well as his directorial debut Shot in the Dark, which chronicled his search for his estranged father, as well as Teenage Paparazzo. He is currently producing a documentary series called Earth Speed in which he seeks out better ways for humanity to use its resources and capabilities to make positive impacts on the planet. Adrian’s philanthropic work, including his promotion of sustainable living with his brand SHFT.com and his work with the Lonely Whale Foundation, garnered him the appointment of a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations Environment Programme in 2017. You can follow him on Instagram @adriangrenier and on Twitter @adriangrenier.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holliday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke Podcast. This is part two of my interview with Adrian Grignet. I'll get right into it. I won't put a big second intro on here, but there was another funny story that you'd touch on in this, which is when I was in American Apparel, Adrian's name started floating around because he was following Dev around or looking to do a documentary on Dev. So he and I had this sort of weird, almost connection, almost 10 plus more than 10 years ago. We never ended up meeting.

I forget why, but of course I was a big fan. I knew his work really well. And so when he came up to me at that party and said, Hey, can you give me a ride home? It feels like, is this real life? What's happening? And I guess he and I moving to the same small town is a sign of where things are going. Austin is a great place. He and I were both in East Austin before we ended up in what they sometimes jokingly call Far East Austin or just East of Weird. That's Bastrop. The painted porches on the little historic Main Street there. His ranch is not far away. My ranch is down the road a bit

as well. And I think we're both putting down roots here. He has a young son. I've got two young sons who are both invested in the community trying to make cool stuff. And I think that's what he's talking a lot about over at Earth Speed, which is his sort of nature-based lifestyle platform. He's really gone into like sustainability. And it's just you wouldn't have, the guy that you saw on entourage. I don't think you would recognize there on his tractor is four by four working on his wrench. And it's a beautiful piece of property that he has. And he's done a lot of amazing work restoring it. We share animal tips. I'll probably give him a donkey one of these days when, when buddy and sugar have a baby here in the next couple months.

But it's really, it's been really cool. And I'm excited to bring you a chat with not just a guest, but a friend of mine. You can check out Adrian's work at Adrian Grenier. You can check out his lifestyle platform at Earth Speed. You can watch episodes of his podcast. We talk a lot of parenting stuff in this one. Man up right on at Earth Speed, Adrian Grenier,

on YouTube, I'll link to all this. And of course, if you haven't watched Entourage, you should. He's also in the Devil wears Prada. He was on the new series, the new Netflix series, Clickbait in 2021. And I checked out after this interview, his documentary Teenage Paparazzi, which talked about a lot of the same themes

that I was talking about, and trust me online, all at the same time. So this was a long time coming, and I hope you liked this chat with me in Adrian Grignet. This very true as parents, right? So like, yeah, if you follow these accounts that give you a sense of how other parents are doing or what, like, what their life looks like, and it's not realistic at all. Like, like, I've never seen a single, like sort of parenting, mom or dad Instagram account,

where the house wasn't spotless. I've never seen one where the kids are crying and screaming and yelling, where the parents are stressed, where they haven't shout. Like, it looks perfect. And that's not what it looks like, and it's definitely not what my house looks like. Shit.

And so now you tell me, you have like this idea of like like who are you trying to impress, what image are you trying to keep up? Like if you can get in this sort of algorithmic loop that's making you feel inadequate in shitty all the time and this can happen if you're a 12 year old girl or it can happen to you if you're a 50 year old man who thinks that the truck that you or I drive is cool. And then then you see somebody else driving an insert fancy car and you go, well, I don't have that. Am I, did I make the wrong decision? Am I not, do I not have what they, it's not good for the brain.

To like keeping up with the Jones is a very natural thing. So you have to be very diligent about what Jones is you let in your life. Yeah, and that's tough for the algorithms who are telling you what Jones is you, you, you want your life. Yeah. So I, um, I saw an Instagram account and there, there was a tip on how to change a diaper to avoid blowouts. Yeah. And so I was doing it for the longest time and I kept getting blowouts and finally, Jordan, she looked at the way I was doing it and I was doing it totally wrong.

I was like folding it under and I think it might have been a prank. Like someone probably could put that out there and just fuck with parents and increase blow outs. Yeah, who knows? Maybe they're just an idiot or like a crazy person. Or whatever, yeah, you have no idea. Yeah, too much trust in what you see. I saw it, of course it's, you know, it's,

so it's funny, we are very much like, because you did a lot of work in media critique. I don't know if you've seen Teenage Pop Rots or have you seen my film? work in media critique. I don't know if you've seen Teenage Poparato. Have you seen my film? So that's basically a media literacy film from the eyes of a celebrity. Sure. And I basically turn the cameras onto a poparato

who's 13 years old. Yeah. And he's an aspiring poparazzi, you know, taking pictures. I'm strange, then. And it became this, yeah, it became this hall of mirrors, like just fractured, you know, media landscape

where everyone's taking pictures of everybody and everybody's striving to be what I had. And I'm trying to deconstruct it. I urge you to check it out because I think you'll see that we have yet another thing in common. Well, you were working on a documentary about Dove at one point, weren't you?

And then there's that. Yeah, I remember hearing about that. And I was trying to do a narrative series. About him? Yeah. Like fictional. Yeah. Like written, I was going to play Do him. Yeah, like a like fictional fictional. Yeah, like written I was going to play Dove. Yeah, and I just needed him to give me his his life rights and his trust. Yeah, so that I could go make a

series about him and obviously you could do all the salacious stuff because you know we share you you work with Dove and I was friendly with him in trying to make this project. But I really wanted to make a show that would not vindicate him, but really show the contradictions within the fashion industry that would look at a guy like Dove Charnie and shame him and make him this perverted figure. When, if you look across fashion, there's a lot of perversion. And there's different kinds of perversions, right?

So it's like, hey, the decision to do these slightly pornographic or reskayer controversial ads, that's one area that someone could say ethically, I don't like that. But that same person has a 17 year old girl working, you know, 10 hours a day in an air, you know, in a windowless factory that could collapse by earthquake at any moment, making 50 cents an hour. Right, so like, there's different forms of exploitation. And the exploitation that is visible and titillating or, you know, sexual in some way,

that like really stands out to people. But I remember he said once to me, I, he would go like, he said something like, if you're buying the swimsuit for $8, somebody got fucked, you know, like his point was like, you can't do that. Right. In any ethical, non-exploitative, cruel way. And we as a society have totally taken that for granted that that's what things should cost. and for the same reason We don't think about where our food comes from we don't We don't want to think about just how inherently exploitative and awful

Most of the clothes or items we wear where they come from 100% yeah, yeah, so I guess he was one of the early figures that Was being canceled and this is pre me too Yes, so he was sort of getting away with it for the for to a large degree and then me to Just undermined. He's also a fascinating figure. I think it's a very common thing that like super talented super successful people a very common thing that like super talented, super successful people, they have the thing that makes them great. And then they have the demon or the wound, which is usually the same, which is usually the same. And ultimately destroys them after it's propelled them to some height. You know, like there's something, I one of the things I came to understand was like the American apparel girl, which was so iconic and fascinating and popular like his image like the thing he was upset his like Gatsby-esque like that's the like it wasn't just this thing He found aesthetically pleasing there was something

There was some like that must have been the girl that he was in love with in high school and could never get because of who he was. And so later, after he'd achieved all this incredible success and had so much going for him, the fact that he would risk all of that, you know, legally, ethically, morally, just plain self-control, that he wouldn't stop himself and wouldn't stop himself when they said, Dove, you will lose everything if you have another relationship

with a person who works for you, you know? Like Josh Peck actually interviewed him. He asked if I would connect, you know, Josh Peck is. Yeah. He interviewed him and he was like, he's like, Dev, like, I'm gonna describe a situation to you. He's like, you cannot eat peanuts, right? And he's like, if you touch one more peanut,

you will lose everything, right? You know, he's just talking metaphorically and Dev goes, I should be able to have sex with whoever I will. Like, Dev could even metaphorically wrap his head around the idea that there's something that you can't do. And so he destroys, he's, when Dove was following his sort of ethical North Star of like fashion competition fuck people over and close can be like it don't have to ruin the invite. Like when he had this sort of sense, this vision for what creatively and sort of structurally was possible,

like as an entrepreneur, he was amazing. And then when he was driven by like the opposite of his North Star, which is his dick, he was a monster. Whatever hole inside him, you know, American apparel girl, a whole sized hole in his heart, right, then Rosebud. Yes, it's a Rosebud thing for him, you know, American apparel girl, whole sized hole in his heart, right? Then rosebud. Yes, it's a rosebud thing for him, for sure.

Yeah, I mean, and he's brilliant. So he's definitely a flawed hero. Like that's how I saw him, a flawed hero in a culture that is just as fucked as him, but gets away with it because they have all the, you know, sexual harassment rules in the workplace. I mean, even on entourage, right? So like, my relationship to sex was partly cultivated by entourage.

Because of the character's lifestyle. Right. And the more I became the character, the more approval I got from people and women, and the more I started to become that character and live that lifestyle. So I had a different relationship with sex, quite unhealthy, where I was like, yeah, people are so uptight, there's such pure, so there's such pure, technical culture still. I heard that, make these rants. What's that? I heard Dov make these rants. I understood

him. I was like, yeah, you know, you're honest, you're like you're wearing it on your sleeve, like people know who you are. So and I guess I'm a lot more conservative now and I found my own pie's take on on. Like, what they go. Yes. Like it's bad for you.

Yes. Like there's that saying like fame is a mask that eats at the face. Yes. And like most, anything that is in control of you rather than you being in control of it is this dangerous road to go down. And I think.

And you do hurt people too. Like it's bad for you, but then look at what you're doing down and I think. And you do hurt people too. Yeah. It's bad for you, but then look at what you're doing to the people around you. And alcohol, for example, is destructive, self-destructive, but then it also starts to hurt your family, right? If you're off the deep end, same with any vice. And I learn those lessons and I come back to center. And now I truly feel like I've been rehabilitated.

But I don't know if Dove ever hit rock bottom enough to see himself in those ways. I remember Robert Green and I were talking to him once. We're like, Dove, you need like a hobby? Like you need to run or swim or do something. And he was like, I have a hobby. And we're like, what, you need like a hobby. Like you need to like run or swim or do something. And he was like, I have a hobby. And we're like, what is it? And he was like, sex.

And like sex is not a hobby. Sex is a vice, right? It's not that it's always bad, but sex is a vice. And and it can best, it's a thing to procreate with, to make family. It can, it consumed his life. And what's crazy about Dove, the idea that he didn't hit rock bottom, I mean, like literally everything was taken for,

he not just lost to the company, but like he owes one of the hedge funds that he used to try to regain control of the company. He owes them $20 million. And like, even then, he's not changed a single habit. And like, the world can blow you up,

and then you can decide, you have two choices there, right? It's like, you hit that rock bottom, and you can decide to climb your way down, or you can keep digging. And I mean, you know, Dove is now running Kanye West's company. No, yes. He's a Jewish man who is running the fashion company

of a virulent anti-Semite slash profoundly ill person. Like, I think what Kanye West has done is, they found each other, is unforgivable and awful and sad, and then also, like, clearly not a sane healthy, like something, like, there's something there that I don't want to say takes him off the hook, but like, he's a victim of what's happening to him also. And the fact that they found each other,

and I was just talking to someone the other day, I was like, I can't imagine what their meetings are like. Like the two of them, because I'm sure you were around, going on with the rails. He would just talk for like five hours. Yeah, he's super entertaining. I actually started drinking lukewarm coffee.

lukewarm instant coffee because of him. Yeah, Dev didn't do any drugs, but what he would do is, and Robert Green told me, he was doing this literally as he was being fired from American apparel, he would get a cup of cold water, and then he would open a pack of like a nescafe pod that you're supposed to put like through a machine. This is like a, like a curriculum. And he would just pour basically straight caffeine into a cup of water and then just drink it. Because he was, he was in such a manic phase all the time. He just needed it to kind of keep it going.

Or maybe he was even, he might have even been taking the caffeine to come down from his like natural insanity. I remember a lot of times he would just call me like three in the morning and I would realize he was just calling me as he was falling asleep. Like he was so lonely and had so much like the idea of even whatever the women he was around, like he didn't actually like them, or he was just calling to hear a voice so that he would not be alone with his own thoughts for the two minutes before he passed out having been awake for 36 hours. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrible. I mean, you realize a lot of these people that you think you want to be like, you do not want to be like. Flood hero, a tragedy nonetheless. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I wish I could have made that show. I think so. His favorite novel was this book. Do you think he gave me the rights now? I don't know. I don't think so. And that was the thing too, is I was like, Dove, what could I do? What could I, what story could I tell that isn't already out there?

Yeah. You know, six ways to Sunday. Yeah. I'm actually going to tell a more nuanced story about your full range of complexity. You're going to be the best nicest person to do it. Yeah. Right. I mean, I just don't know if I could do it now, but it's one of those, you know, nine unfinished things in my heart that I wish that it would have happened. He loved the story of Daddy Crabbits. Yes, yes. Yeah, who's like shamed for having a boner or something?

Yeah, that might be the beginning. Daddy Crab, there's also a movie with Richard Dreyfus where he plays Daddy Crabbits. It's like a great movie. But it's about this sort of hustling young Jewish kid in Montreal who Like he hears from his grandfather that don't that like a man owns land. Funny what we're talking about It's like a man owns land. That was like the mark of success. They came from nothing and daddy becomes this sort of hustling He starts with like arcade games and he trades his way up to his really successful and then He ends up like hurting or betraying

his best friend to like get the land, like his friend ends up in a wheelchair. Basically does literally anything to get the success and then he, you know, he takes his grandfather to see the land, but his grandfather has heard what he's done to get it. And Dutty can't understand slash accept that can't understand slash accept that

like you can't understand that some things are worth more than other things. And your self-respect, your honor, your values are more important than the success. And the irony for Dove to have loved that movie and that story, I'd probably never read the book, I'd probably only watch the movie. But it's like, he only watched the first two acts and he like missed the turn where it's a cautionary tale.

One of the things, man. Yeah, it's like, it's like missing that Gatsby dies at the end of Great Gatsby, you know, like he ends up floating in a pool, murdered. Right. But all you saw was the cool parties. You know, that's who I want to be. That's hilarious. I always liked the opening of the show as I saw it was Dove at 8 years old.

I don't know if he ever told you this story because he had fashion in his blood. Is this where he's selling T-shirts? Yeah. So what he was doing, well no, no, no, he's selling t-shirts? Selling t-shirts, yeah. Yeah. So what he was doing, well, no, no, no, he was selling t-shirts crossing the border illegally to buy t-shirts in New York and bring them back to Canada. There's that. But no, he was like eight years old and he was running for school council or something or president.

And but they had no hot water in the house. And this is in Montreal, it's freezing cold, there's snow on the ground. So he was walking, he'd go to his neighbors to take a shower and then put on like a suit to go to school and run for office or he wanted to like, you know, win presidency. And so the opening in my mind was, you know,

a snowstorm, in like a small little neighborhood in Montreal and little dove comes out of the one house, walks down wearing these big snow boots, but like in those like American apparel tidy whiteies, like walking to the neighbors, going up knocking on the door, hey, water out again.

Yeah, come on in, kid. You know, so she brings him in. He showers and puts on the suit and then goes to school. And that was going to be the opening of the whole thing. He told me a story. He was arrested at like 11 or 12 years old, selling bootleg Madonna t-shirts outside the Montreal forum. Yeah.

So there's some part of him that was like a hustler from the very beginning that was his greatness, but then ultimately, you know, you can't turn it off. Yeah. Yeah. There was no part of him that could retire, that could hand over control, that could staff around him, like anyone, like in retrospect that I worked there was insane. Not that I continued to work there, but who hires a 21 year old,

but basically no experience to run the marketing for your publicly traded company. It was insane, like the whole thing, but I realized that for the same reason he liked to hook up with like these store employees, he hired me because I was not threatening. Do you know what I mean? And that I could be manipulated and controlled. Like there was a glooming there too. It wasn't the same kind of sexual thing, but there was a, it was still fundamentally exploitative. Like when you walked around, like almost none of us

had any business working there or being there because he should have had the best people in fashion working there, but he had us because it could facilitate the sort of secondary purpose of all of it, which was the wound. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I get that. I get that. You create sort of, like lack of accountability in the youngsters you bring in because they don't have the capacity to hold you accountable. And they're just happy to be there. And like, I'm the head of this and I'm 21. Like, sure. This is a good thing.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like Hollywood. It's Hollywood. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. When you're grooming the kids to be, you know, a little starless.

Or you start as an assistant and then you work and you see the behavior, the bad behavior's model and it becomes normalized. So when I left, one of the big parts for me was like sort of just relearning how to be a person, how to be a colleague, how to be a boss, because I'd seen what I thought successful people did, but actually only manic, unhinged like, you know, crazy people did. And so it worked for him in that one environment, but it wasn't, they weren't transferable skills.

And it also wasn't like, it wasn't what I wanted my life to be. Yeah, you grew out of it. Yeah, I mean, I was very lucky also. I think the one like, so I was with my wife the entire time I worked there. So there was a whole set of behaviors slash world that I was not only not interested in, but not invited to you know like Dove wasn't like come stay at my house like you know what I mean come stay at my house because he knew that like Both I appreciate that he respected it

But I he probably also sensed something in me. He was like this isn't someone that will want to participate in my extracurricular activities. So I never got sucked into it in the way that I'm sure was, in Hollywood there wasn't like, we have to protect Adrian. No, you were sucked into the very world that you were fictionally portraying, but it wasn't fictional, it was your actual life.

Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of reward in it, you know. Sure, it's designed to keep you there. With that person's probably easier to control, easier to take, like if you're living outside your means, if you're in some sort of oblivion slash, you know, like not taking, like to like go here, like you're easier to make to do stuff.

Mm-hmm. And to not question stuff and to not, it's's like also it's like if you're too sucked into the present moment then you can't think about what things mean or where that you're going to and you know you can't think like big picture. Yeah. The End But nothing can stop a father. And we want to find her just as much as you do. I doubt that very much. From doing what the law can't. And we have to do this the very way. You have to. I don't.

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Endbridge, life takes energy. So you just did you just get up one day and walk away or did it did it did someone end it for you? Or how do you I had to say no. I had to I called my agents. And I I said, I called my agents and I said, and I was in tears. I wept because I quit acting. I said, you know, I really respect you

and I don't want you to put any effort or work when I'm gonna not take anything. I'm going to just... Because in many ways, acting wasn't something that I had to do. It wasn't something I wanted to do. I was just doing it. Because you got paid for it. I got paid for it.

I could be the man instead of being a man. And so all the ego things and all the, yeah, it just, there's something I had to reject fully before I, and I'll act now, like I can say no now. Now I know how to say no. So I'm open to acting, and by the way, in our neighborhood, there's like, it folks should all the time now. Well, yeah, there's like a hub here.

So we're just gonna be great because I say no to so many projects now because it takes me away from my family, you know, for extended periods of time or the content, like I'm, you know, for extended periods of time or the content. Like I, like, I want to do, I only want to do like things that I would want, I would be proud of for my kids. Yeah. You know, my, my wife was like, do you think, well, I've let our son watch on tarage? And I'm like, oh my God, I, that's like giving me a headache just trying to, you know, give me an head around that.

I'm 17. Yeah. You know, there's going to be a point when I'm going to have to, you know, share with my son where I come from and who I am and, you know, the things I've done and, you know, how I've overcome. Sure. You know, I just not yet. Yeah, yeah, of course.

What is it like to be famous? You should know, come on. That's not the same. No one. No. Authors are famous in a very, first of all, because only with a small fraction of the population.

You're new media famous. Social media famous is also, is it is interesting and different? It was weird for me also because like a lot of it happened during the pandemic. So like I was like not around like life was different. So like my level of being recognizable was going up, but I wasn't in a position to be recognized. And then when that's changed, then it was like, oh, whoa, this is, so it was like, it was like accumulating, but I wasn't experiencing it.

And so that was a little bit disorienting. But there's, I mean, you were famous and you were playing a famous person. So that must have been, there's a thing called a pure celebrity, right? We are famous for being famous. Yeah. So you have like, you know, the Paris-Seltans of the world and whatever. And in many ways, I was a pure celebrity because I was famous for being famous on TV. Oh, yeah. Right.

Extra weird. Yes. So, um, but, you know, anyone who's famous has to deal with that. They have to confront that reality. And, and, you know, at one point after I made my film, Teenage Pop Ratsso, which is basically me figuring out what it's like to be famous and what the hell this, when I woke up one day and people are like standing outside my door, taking pictures of me, like a paparazzi, it's just something you have to confront.

I'm like, what is this? What is going on? Why me? And I think you see varying degrees of celebrities dealing with their fame. And they deal in different ways. So the way I dealt with it, I made a film and I humbled myself in some ways. So I was keeping myself on some level, giving myself perspective. And then at the same time indulging in it. You know, but I think a lot of times any famous person

will, they need to believe their bullshit. They need to believe that they're somehow special. So they will do everything they can to maintain that status. Yeah. And they will, they will surround themselves with yes people who confirm it. And I'm sure I will. Yeah, an entourage of people who are like, keep going.

Yes. And they will reject people who want to call them out. Right. Right. Or hold up a mirror. And when I had my transformation, I had to uncouple with people who we had a mutual, neurotic friendship, you know, like, and we were sort of indulging each other in a lifestyle. sort of indulging each other in a lifestyle.

And they benefited from me being famous, and I benefited from them, supporting that lifestyle. And so I lost a lot of friends. Friends, it must be weird, right? Cause you sort of are famous, but then you're playing someone who fame is such a big part of what that character is and that show is a culture. So you're having to think about you're having to think about both what you're experiencing and a level

above what you're actually experiencing. So it was probably one of the reasons I imagine you were able to get out is that you had kind of an ironic distance from it in a way that an act, if you actually were that character in real life, you wouldn't have, because it would have been all that you knew, you weren't thinking about what it was like to be you. I remember, I reluctantly took the part. Yeah, yeah. I remember when they came in to tell me I got the role and for the first time of someone called me Vince in earnest because now I was the guy who I hung my head. I was like, man, this, because I knew it was gonna be successful. I know it

knew I was gonna have to deal with all this stuff. And it was funny. It's a funny story. The HBO came to me with an idea. And they said, hey, how would you feel about us calling the character Adrian? Well, well, name the character Adrian Gagnier instead of Instant Chase. And I was like, oh, that's an interesting. That's curious.

I liked it as an idea, as a concept. And I was almost going to go for it just because I thought it was a cool idea. And then I realized I was like, I will have no separation from this character if I do that. Zero, it will be me, I will be it. Yeah.

And so I said, no, thank God. Yeah, sure. Even just that tiny difference was probably allowed you to jump in between two worlds. Oh, yeah. Big time, big time. And just, it was meta as fuck to say the least. And I think part of the way I adapted

and the way I processed it was creating more reflections, more layers removed by revealing it, by pulling the curtain back, showing like, it's all just fake, where this is not real, like, I'm just a guy, you know, all the, and that kept me honest. And like you said, you had an idea of what Hollywood would be like when you got there. I thought I was gonna have a house on the hills, overlooking with the starlight, you know, the speckled... L.A. at night.

L.A. at night. I was gonna have a nice car, and I'd be driving through the hills of Beverly Hills or something. I saw that. I ended up living in Los Feliz. I lived with like a bunch of guys, not like on-touch guy group, like friends, like roommates. And we lived really just low to the ground, just cool, like hipsters.

And because of what? I drove a lot of Prius, you know, because it wasn't actually as lucrative or glamorous as you thought or because you chose to live there. I chose that. Right. glamorous as you thought or because you chose to I chose that right I always like as lost as I got in the lifestyle and it was really more like my relationship to sex and women and attention. Yeah. Um, I I always was leery of fame going into it. Yeah.

I was like, I don't know my one to this whole thing, which is why I was in Mexico doing documentaries. Um, so I always made documentaries. I always played music, I always just tried to call, like just maintain my ego to some degree. And I don't, and I really believe that I didn't get, I didn't get detrimentally, I didn't like dub charnie. I was able to get out of it. Sure. Does fame to Ego or does Ego seek fame? I mean chicken and egg I guess right. Yeah.

Yeah, I think It's it's funny right now because right now I'm ranching. Yeah It's funny right now because right now I'm ranching. Yeah. Yeah. Wrangling snakes and, you know, being in a family man, living out outside of Austin. Yeah. And there's still a part of me that feels a little inadequate. Like I feel like I, because I don't have the same attention and accolades sure that I once did an attention is very

seductive and very addictive Yeah, and so there are times when I feel Like a loser I feel like I am not successful because people aren't telling me you're doing good. Yeah I saw your show and So that's something that I I see is built within me. And that maybe that's an ego thing. Yeah. Where I, if I'm not getting that attention

or that act of saccelade, then I feel like I'm a failure. I gotta imagine like if you grow up feeling seen and valued and enough, you probably don't seek out any of the professions like the ones we have sought. Well, I think this must be my father thing, right, because my dad bounced. So that's my wound.

Like I feel like if I had felt understood, I probably wouldn't have spent so much time trying to figure out how to articulate and explain and communicate what I'm feeling and thinking. Do you know what I mean? Like I just be a regular person or something. Do you know what I mean? Like I wouldn't have sought out... Yeah, I wouldn't have sought out the means that I make my living by because I wouldn't, what it, one of the things it does for me, I wouldn't have needed to have done for me. Well, and we're all glad you suffered in such ways because we like you. I think we like what you've brought us. But if you're like someone who got enough attention as a kid, do you seek out a profession that is fundamentally about attention? And you're like, I'm good. Just like, I'm sure, like if you grow up never needing to think

about money, you're probably not like, I got to go to the floor of the New York Stock Exchange like and make my fortune. Yeah. And I look at it from like a permaculture, you know, natural systems point of view, you know, like there's tension within us and there's certain driving forces which may be neurotic or, you know, trauma-based, they drive you, you know, ideally you don't have trauma, but at the same time, that's that very trauma that composts you into new life, you know, so You know, I try not to be dogmatic about like one way or the other, but I I appreciate my journey. I'm so happy to be where I'm at and you know, I wouldn't trade it necessarily I was reading about this species of

I think the conifer tree or whatever it's's in Canada. And it's like pine cones. They only become like fertile or can grow a new tree if unlocked by temperatures that are not naturally present. So basically only fire allows it to germinate and grow. I'm probably using the wrong terms here. But the idea is like the forest fire isn't destroying this species. It needs the forest fire to unlock something in it. And that's probably true about some forms of like creativity

or ambition or what it like. Ideally you have a childhood or a life that doesn't subject you to the forces that unlock whatever that is in you, just like whatever the primal forces required to kill in a war or, you know, everyone probably has that, but only circumstances draw it out from a person

or cultivate a specific kind of person into like the warrior life, let's say. I think there's probably something about certain kinds of childhoods or certain kinds of experiences or moments in time that draw from someone, these kind of certain callings. Can we talk a little bit about daily dad? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So our series, Men Up, right? Yeah. About, you know, men's work and being a better father. Yeah. And so I was like, yes, it's such a great. So you wrote a book called Daily Dad, which is basically just daily meditations from stoke tradition on how to be a good father.

Yeah, so a good parent. A good parent. Yeah, there you go. Well, in my case, good father. Yes, I mean, I call it a daily dad, because I'm a dad, but the daily parent sounds weird, but that's, I hear from lots of women that also read it. Yeah.

So, do you find, it's a great book, by the way. Thank you. I'm halfway through it probably. It's by day. You're supposed to, you should only be, should only be like, well, maybe you're really, no, I skipped ahead. But you're supposed to only read the day's day.

No, I skipped, right. So I skipped, I've read like, you know, however many days, whenever a couple of months were, I said, yes, yes, yes. But what was I gonna say? So, do you find, like so, you wrote the book, you get it, but are you able to practice those?

Like do you find that you're able to actually embody those ideas, those philosophies that wisdom when you're in the moment with your kids? Well, I would say I wrote it to practice it, right? So when I wrote the Daily Stuck, I found that not just running the book, but then doing this, I've done the email every day since 2016, the process of taking a minute every day to think about like what my value say or what I'm

aspiring to be like or what the greats have been like is this wonderful sort of meditative intention setting process. So then when we had kids, I had this idea like I wonder if doing a parenting version of it would make me a better parent. So the fact that more than one person reads it is like gravy for me because the process of doing it makes not just has made me better, but makes me better, which I hope implies very clearly that I'm not good at any of it. And that I'm trying to get better at it. So like I'm not writing the ideas like, this is what I've perfected, but it's more like, here's something I'm thinking about

or here's what the ideal is or here's what I'm trying to do. Like I'll give you an example, I was just talking about with my wife, like I heard someone smart say like, don't tell your kids to be careful because that's a meaningless thing to shout. What you're saying is,

I'm worried I don't want you to get hurt, which is not, it's true, that's your emotion, that's where B careful comes from, because you don't want anything bad to happen to your kids. But that phrase doesn't provide any value or instruction, right? Like, B careful is not a thing you can be. So you should actually say something like, Hey, what's your plan? Like, Hey, try to, you know, put your arms out when you're on this, you know,

narrow ledge or, Hey, don't go so fast. You, you know, yell out some sort of actual instruction or value at. But like yesterday and every day before that, I find myself instinctively saying, like, be careful in my feral animal children are doing dangerous shit, you know? So, like, I know what I should say. And then I catch myself saying the wrong thing. And then I try to go, okay, now that you've shouted this meaningless, you know, warning, try to actually, like, help in some way. So I guess what I'm saying is it's a process for me,

and I hope what I found with the study of stoicism is like, when I first read it, when I was 19, versus what I was putting into practice when I was 20, versus what I was putting into practice when I was 25, versus 35, it's not just, it's not actually not incremental growth, it's logar on this 25 or 35. It's not just, it's not actually not incremental growth. It's logarithmic growth or exponential. So it compounds with time.

The longer you do it, at some point you start to actually see the benefits and the returns. Right. Because I mean, you're essentially an expert in, in soicism, right? Right. I mean, you're, I would say I, I, I know the form of intellectual of a stoicism of our day. I know the, I mean, you're, I would say I know the form of intellectual of is toicism of our day. I know the, I know the philosophy well. I would not say I am an expert stoic.

That's right. Like I make that distinction between the practice and the understanding. But you are meditating on it enough that you start to internalize it and body it. Yes. So that when you look back over time, you realize, oh wow, I'm actually better than I was at 20, better than I was at 30, and so I don't know how old you are now. Yeah, okay.

So, and that's what I found myself is, it actually took me multiple years, several years, to become the man that I am today, so that I felt like I could be a good father. Yeah. Because instead of telling the kid how to be or teaching them the stoic philosophy, if I could just be it, sure, you know, they will just through osmosis absorb and feel it embodied in me. I was talking about Samantha the other day.

She said something like the most valuable skill a person could have is the ability to appropriately deal with frustration, because life is frustrating and check is wrong. And it's never the way you want it to be. And most people are really bad at dealing with frustration. And there's really no way to teach how to be good at dealing with frustration to your children other than getting better at dealing with frustration. And so just the process of understanding what you're going through, trying not to be the person that you

would have been a year ago or 10 years ago, and then also when you make mistakes or you don't do it the way that you would have liked to do it, to be able to communicate, reflect on, apologize for that. That's how you teach your kids how to do it. Right, like in your relationship with your wife,

like how you show up for each other, how you work through kids how to do it. Right, like in your relationship with your wife, like how you show up for each other, how you work through conflict, all that stuff. Okay, so to bring it all together, what do you do about media and your kids? Something that we're talking about a lot, you know, we have no, you don't share. We don't do any pictures of their faces. We've decided that at like day one, even though like my profile was much lower than,

I just found like there was something, there was something, first off kind of ethically wrong with like signing up for their kids for this thing that they didn't sign up for. But I also know like when I think about, when I think about what you think when you're posting on social media, like I hope I hope I put the like this.

I hope it's popular. I hope I get validation. You know, I hope I get approval. I hope I, I hope this grows my account like all those emotions, which social media is designed to exploit in both individuals and famous people and brands and whatever. I felt very uncomfortable with using my kids to get something out of that.

Like, hey, no one's really responding to what I've been doing lately. You can call in the baby. You know, I just really, I just decided we weren't gonna do that. And it was, I think it's been great from a privacy standpoint, but much better from a, that's not a component of our relationship with our kids. We take lots of pictures of our kids,

could we probably be more present, generally sure, everyone could with their phone. But the pictures we are taking are for us or for people we know very well that we are going to share with directly, or it's for them. Like my son fell asleep two nights ago. He wanted to watch the iPad and I didn't let him, but I did, you know, how your phone, you know, how the iPhone, like, it makes like slide shows for you. Yeah, yeah. Of memories. Sure.

I was like, let's watch, like, when we went to the beach. Let's watch last year. Like, we watched memories together. Like, that's what I'm taking pictures of, not for the Facebook algorithm. Right. And what about exposing them to media? Are you, um, and it's, it's hard. I don't, I don't even know what's possible. I don't think

it is. And it certainly wasn't in 2020 when we couldn't leave the house. And there was this idea of like, we also have to work. How do you like to it? I think you're lucky in that you missed that with your kid. I think talking with parents who have kids the same age as ours, there is definitely an extra element. The screens are already addictive, but I can tell my oldest has, when he is stressed or afraid or feels overwhelmed, there's something about the screen that is magically soothing and...

We all know that. Because that's what it was for him when the world actually was scary for that period of time. Yeah. I did not grow up with iPhones, and screens, and I got my first flip phone in my early 20s, like 22. I can't imagine these kids, but at the same time,

Jeannie's out of the bottle. Now we have AI. What is gonna happen? And how do you model for your kids as a dad, as a, you know, daily dad, stoic? Yeah. Their relationship to phones. And what would the stoic say about phones and such? One of the things we try to do with the phones is like, I try to connect it to life, right? So it's like, he's watching

a YouTube video about somebody going on a road trip, let's say or whatever. I go like, you know we can do that, you want to go do that? Like, so like, there are lots of things we have done in real life that he has learned about from first from the screens. So when we try to introduce him to stuff, we try to win what we're letting them watch, it's not just people playing video games, but it's people doing stuff in real life to then inspire us to go do stuff in real life, right? So I think to me, that's the relationship I had with the internet when I was a kid, right? It wasn't this immersive, all, you know, encompassing thing, it was more like learning about stuff that you didn't know existed and then going and further down the rabbit. So we try to do that a lot

But I think I one of the reasons I continue to read physical books at home for sure is like I want to make sure my kids see me doing that a lot. Yeah, I mean, there's no complaints with reading books, right? It's like read as many books as you want, all day long forever. But just nothing about the screen. The field's different, and it is different, but it's also not different.

It is because the medium is a message, right? So it's like just uniform. Like whether it's educational or entertainment, it's all the same action, the same experience. There's not like the tactile visceral experience of smelling an old book or opening it or having to actually, I think it's very different. You're just, you're internal conversation

where you're like challenging yourself inside and having to work at participating because you're participating when you're reading because you're also challenging yourself inside and having to work at participating, because you're participating when you're reading, because you're also imagining what it is as opposed to just purely being a consumer and being told, you know, as a passive consumer. I mean, one unique experience I've had with my books is like, I hear from lots of people

that didn't read a lot before they read my books. So they didn't think they liked books, they didn't grow up reading, and then somebody gave them an audiobook, or they watched a YouTube video, then came and read it. And so I have tried to work on, I'm a physical book, I mean, we're surrounded by books, I have a book store, I love books, I think books are the greatest invention in the history of humankind,

but I try not to be snobbish about it and I understand that different people have different journeys and different ways of learning. And so, like, when, let's say it turns out that my son is not, one of my kids is not that way, right? Like they're not a person who reads by learning, they learn by video, they learn by audio. Like I'm trying not to, I am trying to be relaxed about the different ways that we come

to information. The same thing, I've talked to people who didn't read a lot as a kid and then they fell in love with it later. And so just also understanding that like people are on their own journey and that if you try to force or mold someone into being a certain way that you think is the only way or the best way, you're probably not just, you're probably not only not succeed, but you'll probably do damage. Like you'll probably push them further in the opposite direction. So one of the things finding out that my son is very interested in, let's say, YouTube or the specific YouTubers or whatever,

I've tried to go, let's think about who this person is. And let's not just think about them as this thing on a screen, but to talk about how like, they're an entrepreneur, this is a job, and they have a cool job, which is like this person plays video games for a living. Like, that wasn't a thing when I was a kid. You couldn't do that as a kid.

And so, like, I have tried to like, meet my kids where they are with this stuff, as opposed to projecting or judging. He likes slack. Slack? Is that what that is? Oh. He likes Minecraft.

He's obsessed with Minecraft. Right, but I mean, watching people play Minecraft. Oh, yeah, yeah. He loves this kid, Beckbro Jack. Has he already done that by the way? I mean, you must have. What played? Just like watch people play.

Yes. It's extremely compelling. It's extremely, it seems insane that it would even be remotely interesting. And then you realize, compelling. It's extremely, it seems insane that it would even be remotely interesting. And then you realize, no, it's actually fun about it. It is the same reason it was fun to play video games as a kid, which is not so much the game, but the ball busting and the jokes and the narration that's happening as it's happening plus the immersiveness of the world. that's happening as it's happening plus the immersiveness of the world. I'm going to send you a YouTube channel of a guy who basically takes games, like video games,

and he cuts them together in like a philosophical, like a little philosophical, die tribe, using video games. So it might be interesting because there's deeper, wisdom and ideas. Essay is what I'm trying to say. Philosophical Essay using video games. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Ghosts aren't real. At least is a journalist. That's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happen in my childhood bedroom, but ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago, when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too, including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. And it gets even stranger. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunted my childhood room might just be my wife's

great grandmother. It was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. From Wondering and Pineapple Street Studios comes ghost story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Go Story on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams.

The list goes on. So do sit back and enjoy. Briden and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus or wherever you get your podcasts. and he like shut down all of me. He did something with like kids stayed up all night and camped on the street and forgetting his name. So it was a Mr. Beast guy. Yeah, Mr. Beast guy. It's A, Mr. Beast guy. Like a guy in the universe. Right, yeah, yeah.

Yes. I think it was an Elgin. Yeah, it was, we punched above our way over here. Well, there's, yeah, I think, I think, there's only like 10 of us. So it's a small club. That's enough, that's enough. Who's the other actor that was out here?

He's in the Marvel Universe. I think with the DC universe. Zach. Yes. Zach Lee by. Yes. Yeah. Have you met him? I have. Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess there's Elon also. Elon's on his way. Yeah. Just don't dump. Don't dump. Trident water into our river, please. Yeah, of course. Um, yeah, I was, I may be keeping that conversation for after cameras are off. Um, I definitely want to, there, there's a lot of development around here. And I have been there's a lot of development around here and I have been actively reaching out to developers to offer my

permaculture design perspective. That's cool. Because if they're going to do it anyway, yeah, is what? Put a bug in there here and be like, hey, how are you dealing with water? Sure. You know, what are you doing with the wildlife? And what is it from the trees? I noticed about here that's the time to change, tell I think about politically, it's very hard to build an Austin, right? Permitting is hard. There's zoning is bad. So there's a lot of nimbism in Austin

that has made it extremely expensive to live in Austin. Like the house that I bought in East Austin, right? It's like one of those, it was because there was somewhat permissive zoning, like somebody bought an old house and turned it into two little houses, like smaller houses, because it's hard to build apartment complexes on, right? It's hard, even though people think Austin's blowing up, Austin has San Francisco level zoning restrictions that are very exclusionary, ultimately have very racist origins. Like the reason you and I live,

we're able to live in East Austin is that the zoning was less restrictive on what was previously the segregated part of town. So Austin thinks, hey, we're protecting the environment by not allowing people to build and being restrictive. But then when you drive from Austin to Bastrop, what you notice is trailer parks and crappy houses

and all sorts of things where as soon as you cross over the line, it is permissive. So Austin and things, they're preventing things from happening, but what they're actually doing is just bulldozing the beautiful land that's here. Right? So instead of somebody being able to build an apartment complex that has density in Austin that would then lower prices and make it affordable or reasonable for people to live,

they are essentially creating like shanty towns and ghettos in this county. And that's kind of changed how I think about things politically as I'm a pretty liberal person and you think, hey, this is the right thing, but you don't understand how it's actually externalized, like, you think you're protecting the environment, but you're actually harming the environment. There's the same thing, like,

they wanted to build like some low-cost housing down the road here, like on the other side of town, that's like next to a tire shop. It's not good land at all, but a bunch of people were like, well, I don't want low-income housing, right? And so they all got together and they shut it down. And those are people who see themselves as good people as people who are stewards of the land. But they don't realize that those people are going to have to live somewhere. It's just going to be in a worse place than that. are going to have to live somewhere, it's just going to be in a worse place than that. And so I'm going to send you a deck of what we're doing at Kinsugi.

Yeah, Kinsugi Ranch is our property. And we're essentially developing the land, but not for density, but for nature. Yeah, right. So we'll have a number of people living there. But one thing that we are considering is who can afford to be there and what kind of houses are we going to build so that we can have as much range of diversity of humans, both low income and people who can afford a little bigger place or whatever. And also the demographic of people who we're inviting in. Because when all of a sudden done, we're going to have a community of 30, 35, 40 people

living and working there. And so it's kind of cool to have your own little canvas to, sure, your own little canvas to develop and zone and create, which, so that's what I like about this neighborhood is, I have a lot of control and leverage to do that, a lot of leeway I'm privileged to do that a lot of leeway, I'm it. So, have you been a community village, or community first village? The homeless thing. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So cool.

And they're building like 3D printed houses out there. So, Icon, I'm talking to them because we're building a chapel on our property. So I wanna do a 3D printed chapel. And I got a lot of ideas. I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna list you. I'm gonna list you. I don't know if I can do an interview with one of these.

You're my mouth. Oh, I just put it in the side. I suck on it. It's a caffeine. It's a, it's a, it's a caffeine. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah, it's not, it's not a lukewarm water, but what, how is being a parent change, too?

How is, like, it's only been two months, but how do you feel like a change? Well, I feel like a lot of your change was leading up to it, which is very... I made the choice to change so that I can arrive for this moment. That's very beautiful. So I don't feel like I'm playing catch-up. I'm really just settling into what I've known I wanted. And like deep down inside, the little boy in me

who sort of abandoned my romantic. Like I was a one woman, when I was a kid I told my mom, I'm a one woman man, I'm eight years old. told my mom, I'm a one woman man. Yeah. I'm eight years old. Yeah. And then I ended up becoming a fucking baby boy, right? And it's like the disconnect. So I really came back to my true nature. It's like I'm married.

So happily married. My wife and I are getting along so well. By the way, I don't know if I mentioned this. The girl who dumped me to set me flat. Her rock bottom. My rock bottom. I ended up winning her back and we got married. So Jordan, is the chick, you know, who basically slaps, I say, like cosmic bitch slap,

carmic bitch slap. I had a's like cosmic bitch slap, carmic bitch slap. I had a moment like that. Yeah. When American peril was sort of, when Dev was fired and I came back and we were trying to turn the company around, I was this ball of stress and my identity and my life was so tied up and work.

Sam and I were fighting all the time and I remember she was just like, I'm not doing this anymore. And I remember thinking like, am I going to lose this person? I've been with probably been together like 10 years at that point. Am I going to lose the person I've been with for 10 years that's like made me better in all these ways for like a consultant gig at a company that's like, I didn't even start that at the end of the day. Like, I don't even care about like., by the way, the double whammy was like, I'd already written three books.

I also had my other dream that I'd achieved simultaneously. And meanwhile, I'm fucking in an office all day. This is insane. And so that was a huge wake up call for me. So sometimes you need that, I think sometimes people think being with someone, they go, I don't have time for relationships or I'm focusing on my career

so I can't be with someone or I can't get, and you don't actually realize, yes, being with someone ties you down, but if you're an ambitious or even someone, you can just go person, like what it's actually doing, it's tying you down to planet earth, like to reality.

It's like, does desperately needed to be married. He needed some counterbalist to prevent him from being all one thing. And so it's actually been a sort of issue to finish. And women have a knack of revealing yourself to you and pushing you to be better. Sure. They'll call you out when you're not being your best or when you're,

that's just, you know, I see my wife as the oracle, when I shouldn't be an navigator. Yeah. You're like, you're going the wrong way. Turn left, turn right. Okay, yes, honey. Like, okay, I'm on, and like I can just drive, go straight.

That's, and you know, take orders. We talked about it a bad way, but we talked about saying no earlier, I think two ways, having the spouse is makes it so much easier to say no, because you can be like, I know I'm biased here. You tell me whether I should do this. Not tell me whether I'm allowed to do this or not, but you know my values and you know our values

and our values as a couple. So as a less interested party, make this choice easy for me. So that happens a lot. And then there's a deep known, it's a felt experience. It's not, you know, intellectual or rationalizing something, they feel it. You know, it's the greatest thing that having kids does is it gives you perspective. Like you find out how much tolerance you had for bullshit

before that when you have kids, hopefully, you no longer have tolerance for. Like I have in my office, what you may have seen, I remember you recorded something in my desk, I have a picture of my kids, like a picture of my oldest, a picture of my youngest, and then in the middle, there's a sign that just says no. And the reminder for me there is not no generally, but that when I am saying yes to stuff,

the random shit that comes in my inbox, I'm saying no to these two people. And that when I'm saying no to things that I don't need to do, I am saying yes to stuff, the random shit that comes in my inbox, I'm saying no to these two people. Wow. And that when I'm saying no to things that I don't need to do, I'm saying yes to these two people. Well. And there is something magical about how understanding people are when you have young kids because they know what it's like and they feel guilty about the things that they

did that they shouldn't have done when they had kids. So they leave you alone a little bit and they give you space and they're tolerant. And so like, that's one thing I tell people, it's like, milk this for all that it's worth, you know? Like, I can't, my kid is sick. He's a magical excuse. I can't. My son is a doctor's appointment, a dancer's side, oh, you know, we're going on family, but like, I gotta be home in time for this.

Yeah. That was, I remember, you know, Casey Neistat, I was like a huge YouTuber and great filmmaker, but he, I remember, he did me a huge favor one time. I asked him if he wanted to do something, like, good to know, he goes, I don't miss bath time. And that was, like, to do, and he goes, I don't miss bath time. And that was like, I didn't have kids yet. So that felt weird to me.

That felt like something like, I don't know that. Right. Like some gender stereotype that like somebody else does, like that the wife does, or that like, like my dad was never home in time for bath time. That was not his role in our family. So the idea that this person I respect, whose work I respect is like,

I don't miss bath time, was really helpful to me. And very practical, like the idea that like, I get home at night and I'm at dad at home, like that's my job, has not just kept me out of trouble, but it's just eliminated, even the consideration of a whole bunch of things that ordinarily you get asked to do. And it wasn't like an overnight thing, it took time and I've made mistakes and sort of waffled.

But like that idea of like, I get home to do X or I don't miss X. These are great like hard and fast rules to practice as a parent that make you, by having the rule, it makes you the person that you aspire to be. It's a container in which you can be more free in many ways. Yeah, I remember I was talking to some very rich dude and I was telling him some version of this

and he was like, no one would believe me if I said that because they know I have staff. they know I have staff, right? Like they know, you know, and I was like, that's sad. Like that sucks. Like I try to drive, like I'm the one that drives and a lot of the time picks my kids up. Like that's my job. And that, that's not a thing I'm ashamed of. It's like a part of my identity, right?

Like I like it, I'm proud of it. I like that I'm successful enough that I can make my own hours that I can drop my kids off and pick them up. And by making some of those choices, you can put yourself in the position to be the parent that you want to be. Well, we're very happy that so far,

we haven't used a night nurse or nanny or anything. We've been very just her and I. And we're blessed that we can be, but also we're blessed that we chose to do it. We've made that choice to become the people that could hold that. And look, when I say these things, I try to stipulate that I'm not judging someone who can't do that, especially people who have no choice. Like they literally have to work this now. They work in an industry where maternity leave

or free-native or not those. Everybody gets to decide how they live their life. Sort of, but also like, look, if you came to this country as an immigrant escaping persecution, and now you have to work incredible hours just to keep your kids in close, I'm not judging that. What I am talking about is people who have way more than enough

and then tell themselves they're working for their family that they don't see to provide things for them that their kids don't need when actually what their kids have asked for is that. Like, how wealthy are you if you can't afford to see your family? Yeah, yeah. That seems like, like to me having a very busy schedule is a form of poverty, not like starvation poverty, but that's an impoverished way to live. Time is the most valuable thing.

So how much time do you have to do the things that are important to you? One of the tricky things about writing is that as you succeed, you have more and more impositions on your time that take away from your ability to write. And so for me, like, somebody gave me this advice once, it was Austin Cleon, he's a great writer, he said, I'm work family scene, pick two. Like your career, your family, or like the art scene, parties, events, you know, it's a pick-to and You know, I know which two I want

Damn Yeah, you can't because you can't have it all nobody can I might be able to actually okay, so I'm building a community right that's my work I think if my work is the scene. Yes, or if they live on your property, if it's community at that level, we're veering close to some form of extended family at that point. Yeah, that's so fun.

Right, you've merged it together in a way that is different than... Like, I just... Like I get... This is again, I'm a champion, but people be like, oh, like we're going to Italy for two weeks and I'm going to go like, cool, I like my kids. Like you know what I mean? Or like, hey, we're all going like, hell is skiing in British Columbia or something. I go, that sounds cool, but like I like my kids.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm so happy where I am. And by design, I want to be able to merge my work, will play time together so that I can be with my kids to, you know, I say kids, because I plan on having more. Yeah, sure.

I love it. But, yeah, you have to, you have to design your life in that way, you know, and that's, that takes a little bit of thinking outside the box and the, the, the courage to, to try it a new way. Sure. I definitely, I feel so, so deeply grounded and there's such a relief. I was always chasing, like always having to go somewhere, always having to be somewhere, like,

oh, and now there's just a calm, you know, and my son, my son is, I can't wait for you to meet him. Yeah. He's so cute. Do you ever worry that the future you will regret things that you turned down now? Like, like, so let's say I get an offer to do something. I go, I don't need it. I want to do this, but I sometimes go, yeah, but we'll Ryan 12 years from now go like I really could use that now.

I'll be honest. I'm not making as much money as I once did. So there's a part of me that's like, oh, are you gonna? You're gonna run out? Yeah, you're gonna be you're gonna be in poppers, you're gonna, but I keep reminding myself. I can always live in a camper. Yeah. In the backyard. You know, I can live the load of the ground myself I can always live in a camper in the backyard. I can live the load of the ground. I can live. To me, I expand to meet my opportunities and to live beyond just the material, goods that I have. And so I can live small, I can live large. And so I have that range.

So I don't think I'll regret it because if I ever dwindle down to a place where I feel like I'm struggling, I know I can sell some stuff. I can always do so. I know I have the capacity to earn, but I choose now to be present with my kids. Yeah, there's a confidence in that too,

where you're like, I earned this stuff not simple. There's kind of like an imposter syndrome that goes along with creative success because it is so unpredictable and you do know people that their career falls off. But there is a sense that you didn't deserve it, you didn't earn it, didn't have anything to do with you. So of course it could be taken away. You should have been thankful. Instead of going like, hey, it was through savvy and skill and hard work that I did this. And even if it gets taken away, I still have most of those skills, right?

And I will say like having the ranch and doing stuff like anytime like I work with like someone's replacing the floors, I go like, you know, and then they say they're going to show up and they don't show up and then the job was supposed to take two days, six days and blah, blah, blah. I go, I'm confident in my ability to learn how to install floors, right? Like if everything were to go to shit, I'd say you six days. But no, no, I was gonna say like, but I also know what I have that I could bank on if things went to shit is like, I do what I say and I show up. And I don't cheat people. You know what I go like,

I, I, it's not that I could do anything because there's something I can't do. But what I'm saying is that like, part of that fear when you have creative success is like rooted in the idea that that's the only thing that you can do. And when you've done other things, and you have kind of a self-sufficient,

I can always mend fences. Yeah, exactly. I can do a lot of other stuff. Always bring in money. I can always live well if it's on a smaller piece of property or if it's a smaller house or it's an apartment share, whatever it is. The important things are presence, love, family, community, and yeah, I rest

assured that all the stuff and things can go away because they have. And still find peace and happiness. The Seneca, who was a very wealthy man, which some people thought was a contradiction between sort of philosophy and, you know, that there was a contradiction between being successful and being a philosopher, and he said, no, there wasn't. But he did, he would practice this exercise. He would try to practice poverty like one day a month, like he would slum it, slum it,

eat bad food or go without food where it's crappy clothes or walk the streets, not being sent a cat, right? Not a wealthy Roman would have an entourage and a bodyguards and we just walk as a regular person. And the exercise he said was to get to a place where he could say to himself, is this what I was afraid of and not be afraid of it anymore. Because that is the paradox of success, is that we think it will make us more secure,

but it makes us less secure because now we don't want to lose it. Now we're afraid of going back to how we were. Even though we were perfectly happy or we survived perfectly well before we had these things. Once we get them, it seems inconceivable not to have them anymore Things you own own you. Yeah, or the status like the lens, but when you when you can go Hey, we we went on vacation instead of staying in the four seasons. We stayed at a

Motel on a road trip and it was just as fun. You go. Oh, yeah, I don't it motel on a road trip and it was just as fun. You go, oh yeah, I can't afford these things, so I do experience them, but I don't actually need, they're not part of who I am, not dependent on them. And so to have that ability not to be afraid of some different way of life is it, is it, it's kind of a superpower? Yeah, I mean, it's part of, mean, it's part of manifestation is to uncouple yourself with the goal and to be grasping and clinging to it and really let things flow. Energy flows in nature.

When energy is stuck or stagnant, it breaks or it's missing from the, it creates a knot in your body. And then when, in same with money, I think wealth is an energy that needs to flow. And if you're too held onto it too tight, it won't bring abundance, it'll actually bring the opposite. Yeah, and a lot of people have abundance, but still,

their mindset is scarcity. Yes, exactly. And that's, again, not a, not a particularly rich life. Right. You can have all the things, but still feel like you're lacking. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, and that, that's definitely common if you were all the things, but still feel like you're lacking. Yeah. Yeah.

Especially, and that's definitely common if you were getting the things because you felt like you were lacking. Like you thought, hey, if I have a Ferrari, then I'm an important, you know, cool person. Like if you were trying to get the things to be a person, as opposed to just being a person who likes to go out of the things. Like, take away the Ferrari and you know, there you are. Yeah, if you identify success with your success or your status or your possessions on the way up

or when they're good, then you, by definition, are afraid to lose them. And everyone goes through slumps and transitions and down periods. Yeah, it's how you, um, you're resilience and how you actually get through the down, the down times is what makes you creates your character. Yeah, and when things are easy, it's like, yeah, okay. Can you knowingly overcome adversity,

that's the important thing. And I have confidence in that. Yeah. Yeah, and stripping things down and getting practiced in person, or with them is a way of cultivating that kind of resilience. And back to death, the meditation's on death. It's like that is the one thing

that we will all have to confront one day and to practice that and get good at it. So when it does happen, you can do it with ease and with courage and grace. Also, I think meditating on death strips away a lot of the pretension and the significance of these things that you're chasing. It's the great equalizer. And this is why it's helpful to go like, what would I do if I found out I had cancer? You'd immediately stop caring about 80% of the shit that you care about. And the truth is you do have cancer.

Like you do, you will die. You will die. And so the idea that you're like waiting for it to become real. Yeah. Like you do you will die. You will die. And so the the idea that you're like waiting for it to become real. Right. Or like close to it, it's it's it's silly. Yeah. And letting go of all the material things one step further is just letting go of the material flesh. You know this this this body, which is temporary. And I'm sure that was part of the experience of the sort of rock bottom for you with your now wife, right? Like, so you're arguing about things, you're fighting about things, you have these disagreements

over priorities or how things should be. Then you lose that person, which is a form of death, right? It's the death of a relationship or a death of a future that you had taken for granted. And in an instant, none of those things become it. No, those things are important anymore. And so much of what we argue about or fight about, there's an arrogance to it. There's an arrogance that you have forever, right? That's the sort of immortality delusion that we have.

Or there's the arrogance that like the relationship can bear an unlimited amount of mistakes or stress or entitlements or whatever it is. And then suddenly you are reminded of the precariousness of either of those things. And you go, I was just pretending, I give up on all of it, it's not actually important to me at all. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Anything else we should cover? I'm good. I think we should just keep doing this more often.

Yeah, let's do it. I do want to come to your ranch. Of anytime. Yeah. Yeah. And is yours? Mine's kind of ugly right now. And the only reason I was thinking it was better to do this here is that that's one thing I found during the pandemic. It was like a funny thing was like, um, we bought it in April of 20, what was that? 2015 maybe, but the point was, was amazing. And then, you know, you take it for granted, right?

It just becomes normal. That's where you live. But like when, when the pandemic shuts down in March of 2020, I realized how few marches and April's I had spent at that place, because I'm always traveling. I was like, it was experiencing the beauty and the perfectness of it, because that's the best time of weather

in this part of the country. Everything's green. It's not hot yet. And you're just like, oh, this is what it's like. This is why I fell in love with it. Um, and then we are in the, we are in the, the ugliest part of the, the, the, the,. Maybe you can come out and we fix some fence. And yeah, I'm down. We'll do that. No, anytime.

Yours is fantastic. I'm sending you this deck. Because, yeah, please. Well, I'm going to ask for some support. OK. I want to do it on camera so that you can say no. But, no, sure. You'll see what it up. I'm up to no come out. We're we're just hanging out Are you around for a bit?

We're done. Bye everyone Thanks so much for listening if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon music app today, or you can listen early and ad free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. Okay, so if you had a time machine, how far in time would you need to go back to be a dominant basketball player of that?

I need to go to when Bob Coosie was playing. Back in the plumber day. 27 year old Shay would give Bob Coosie the business. He's not guarding me. Hi, I'm Jason Gatsapsion. And I'm Shay Serrano. And we are back. We have a new podcast from Wondering. It's called Six Trophies.

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