The Daily Stoic - Alexi Pappas on Ditching Goals and Her Strategy For Maximizing Mentorship

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

It’s easy to assume an Olympian would be all about external achievements, but Alexi Pappas has redefined what success means to her by letting go of goals altogether. Alexi joins Ryan to talk about falling in love with the process vs. achieving a goal, simplifying life’s decisions, and how losing her mom led her to seek mentorship everywhere. Alexi Pappas is an Olympic athlete, filmmaker, author of Bravey, and podcast host of Mentor Buffet. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, Sports Illustrated, and The Atlantic, and she’s been featured in outlets like Rolling Stone and New York Magazine. Alexi co-wrote, co-directed, and starred in Tracktown and starred in Olympic Dreams with Nick Kroll. She holds the Greek national record in the 10,000 meters and competed in the 2016 Olympics.Follow Alexi on Instagram and X: @AlexiPappas🎙️ Listen to Alexi’s podcast Mentor Buffet on Apple Podcast,  Spotify, and YouTube📕 Pick up a copy of Alexi’s book Bravey: Chasing Dreams, Befriending Pain, and Other Big Ideas📱 Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. When I travel with my family, I almost always stay in an Airbnb. I want my kids to have their own room. I want my wife and I to have a little privacy. You know, maybe we'll cook or at the very least we'll use a refrigerator. Sometimes I'm bringing my in-laws around with me or I need an extra room just to write in. Airbnbs give you the flavor of actually being in the place you are. I feel like I've lived in all these places that I've stayed for a week or two or even a night or two. There's flexibility in size and location. When you're searching you can

look at guest favorites or even find like historical or really coolest things. It's my choice when we're traveling as a family. Some of my favorite memories are in Airbnb's we've stayed at. I've recorded episodes of a podcast in Airbnb. I've written books. One of the very first Airbnbs I ever stayed in was in Santa Barbara, California while I was finishing up what was my first book,

Trust Me I'm Lying. If you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend you check out Airbnb for your next trip. On January 5th, 2024, an Alaska Airlines door plug tore away mid-flight, leaving a gaping hole in the side of a plane that carried 171 passengers. This heart-stopping incident was just the latest in a string of crises surrounding

the aviation manufacturing giant, Boeing. In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of damning scandals and deadly crashes that have chipped away at its once sterling reputation. At the center of it all, the 737 MAX, the latest season of business wars, explores how Boeing, once the gold standard of aviation engineering, descended into a nightmare of safety concerns and public mistrust. The decisions, denials, and devastating consequences bringing the Titan to its knees. And what if anything can save the company's reputation now?

Follow Business Wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge Business Wars, The Unraveling of Boeing, early and ad free right now on Wondery Plus. on Wondery Plots. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure,

fascinating and powerful. With them we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. It probably would have been fitting for me to go for a long run this morning. I didn't. My ankle has been hurting this weekend so I swam at Barton Springs yesterday and then I had a nice swim at Barton Springs this morning.

A little foggy today, a little misty but I love it when the water is warmer than it is outside. I don't love it when it's freezing outside so it's like 50 today but got in, swam about a mile. It's basically my only time to work out today. I've got two talks I'm giving. Actually, I gotta go give a virtual talk in 25 minutes. Yesterday before my podcast, it looked like I had these giant bags under my eyes because of the goggles.

And this morning I put Vaseline under them before I put them on, but they're still there. I gotta figure out like, what is the half life of the goggle marks that I put on and then I can't swim beforehand. So hopefully the people that I'm doing this virtual talk to don't think I am burning the midnight oil. I actually went to bed at a very reasonable time last night.

One of the things we did as part of the Daily Stoke New Year New Challenge was like pick a bedtime this year. And I've been pretty good about it. My wife and I had been going to bed earlier so I feel good. I look like I haven't been sleeping. Anyways, so I'm recording this intro before I run to that but I wanted I wanted to get a nice a nice swim in and that leads me to today's guest. Sort of two connections to today's guest. My friend, Rich Roll, is a mutual acquaintance.

He's spoken very highly of her. And I also know she's in town a lot, like in, not in Austin, people are in Austin all the time, but she's in Bastrop all the time because she is friends with Richard Linklater, the movie director who is sort of the OG in Bastrop County. I'm talking about Alexi Pappas. She is an Olympic athlete, an actress, a filmmaker.

She set the national record for the 10K in Greece. You know, as that LeBron James phrase goes, more than an athlete, she's done a bunch of different stuff and she's talked about that journey along the way. She wrote a book called, Bravy Chasing Dreams, Befriending Pain, and other big ideas. In this lovely episode of the podcast,

we talked about running, enjoying the process, dreams, and then mentorship. That's what brings her out here. As I said, she's close to the Linklators. I don't know if I can talk about it yet, so I can't say it in the intro, but she is adapting one of my all-time favorite books into a movie, so I'm very excited about that.

And then it turns out we we may have run at some of the same meets because we're roughly the same age and grew up in Northern California together. I'm really excited about this episode. I think you're going to like it. I think this is one of the best ones we've done in a while. You can listen to Alexi's podcast, Mentor Buffet, which is produced by Rich's company. I'm hopefully gonna go on that next time.

I'm in Los Angeles and we just missed each other. She was here while I was out of town. She did text me that so far her house had made it through the LA fires. You know, when we did that Daily Stoke email about how, you know, these fires aren't these just like news events that are happening to people you don't know. They're happening to people,

I know they're happening to people that you have heard of through this podcast. Thankfully, Alexi and Rich's places were both okay, but it must've been a very scary time for them. And it's a crazy time in the world. Anyways, I gotta go do this virtual talk. And so I'll let you just get into this wonderful episode of the Daily Stoke podcast with Alexi Papas.

You can follow her on Instagram at Alexi Papas and do check out the Mentor Buffet podcast and her book, Brave E. There's a hike that I do with my, what feel like my cousins, even though we're not born cousins. And I just have like a deep memory of talking about what they were gonna do for their, what birthday was it? I think it was when they stopped being teenagers.

That's a big one, right? Yeah, sure. What are the big birthdays when you're 18? 16, 18, 21. 20 also because you're not a teenager. Oh yeah, sure, sure. I think that's actually very existential. And then the rest after or whatever. I'm talking about like, what are young people?

What are their turning points? I think it was their 20th that they're most nervous. Yeah, because you're in your 20s, which is terrifying for people, right? I remember I went for a walk in Lost Finds Park with my kid, I guess I only had one then. But I was like, you know, let's not do anything this weekend, let's just go for a hike, we went through a hike.

And that's where I had the idea for the series that I'm doing, which I've been working on for five years. Like just on a random hike, not thinking about work there, I had just a random breakthrough that's like consumed me for the last five years. Like, so I think about that park all the time. It's one of my favorite places.

I was like, I want to talk about the park, but I want to ask you about your breakthroughs because I'm genuinely curious. Do you have like a question in the back of your mind that you're trying to answer? And then you just keep it in mind as you're living your life, and then let it come to you? Like when you had that epiphany,

did it come out of nowhere that you would even pursue a project at all? Or did you have the idea that I'm trying to think of something and then it came to you? Usually what happens is you're finishing a project, like a book or whatever, and so for the first time, you're not totally consumed with the present of the overwhelming task, and you are just starting

to get the brain power to consider the future, and then I find it just appears. But I do a microcosm of that every day, which I usually write in the mornings, and then in the afternoons or early evenings, that's when I either run, bike or swim. And usually something will pop into my head pertaining to what I just worked on

that will set me up for tomorrow. So like the physical creative practice are like very linked. I don't run in that park as much anymore now that I've kids, cause it's like a drive and it's like, oh, I can't be like, I'm going to go work out for three hours. Like I just don't have that kind of time. So, but when I did, I've had so many ideas in that park. It's like, I love it.

I haven't stayed in any of the cabins. I keep trying to convince my kids that we should do that, but they're like, if we're going to go somewhere, we should go somewhere. Have you seen them? They were built out of like stones in the thirties. They're crazy. I didn't know you could stay in them.

Yeah. They had, they built like, so the WPA worked on that park. There's a really cool swimming pool in there. And then there's all these like little lodges, a little like single family cabins that you can rent. That's really, really cool. That's something I wish I did more of in college, cause you could rent the cabins at the Dartmouth grant

for like $10 a night for I think as many people as you wanted to have there. And I was like, why did we not do that more? It's like amazing. I mean, we were in college too, so we weren't necessarily like, let's leave and go to the woods, but I wish I had done more of that.

When did you graduate from high school? High school, 2008. I think we may have overlapped at some cross-country meets because I grew up in Sacramento and I was class of 2005. there was a we would drive to like the Bay Area all the time and what school? Granite Bay. Oh, I know Granite Bay. Yeah. Wow, that's crazy. I think I can picture the uniform Yes, great the font. Mm-hmm. I know the font. That's weird. Yeah, cuz that's what you don't know What high school were yet Bishop O'Dowd in Oakland? And so we would have overlapped not at like a tradition. It would have like the joint meet like yeah

Yeah, I'm getting what they're all called but the invitational It means it's interesting because I only ran my freshman and sophomore year of high school and I got only time We would have that's what I'm saying. Yeah, and then I got kicked off my team, but I did too you did many times Yeah, what did you do? I didn't do anything. I would say I didn't do anything. It was like a silly form of rebellion. But in retrospect, it seems insane to me that you would just let ninth and 10th graders be like,

go run for 50 minutes and come back. Yeah. We would just like- Go swimming? Yeah, or go play video games, or we would go, I remember one time we just went to a grocery store and bought a cake and then just ate a sheet cake. Yeah.

You know, like just do nonsense. But that's- So we'd just get in trouble and- They should have allowed that because that's, that kind of mischief is really good for kids, I think, and adults. Yes. Like harmless mischief, eating a cake, like who cares?

Sure, yeah, my other friends were doing drugs or something. But yeah, we were just not training at all. I never took it seriously. Like I love running now and I did not take it seriously for one. The idea that I could be good at this thing and I should try to be my best at it never occurred to me. And what was occurring to you?

I don't know, some adult was telling me what to do. And I think in retrospect, it's a very common thing, which is you are afraid of earnestly doing anything because then if you don't succeed, then it doesn't feel bad. I was afraid of that. That's called sandbagging. Oh, sure. That's what sandbagging is.

Yes, sandbagging is just the idea that you create in the present, like an excuse for your later self to lean on for when you don't succeed. And I had a teammate in mammoth who would be such a, he was a disciplined athlete, never went out, did everything properly, and then the week of a race would just like get drunk and then like not necessarily run well and then be like, it's cause I drank. And it was like, what is that?

Cause that was never, I'm not a sandbagger. Yeah, clearly. Clearly or not, I'm a gamer. Like I'm a gamer. Like I will show up beyond what I need to do. But what'd you get kicked off for? Oh, I got kicked off my high school cross country and track team because I was a multi-sport athlete and interdisciplinary

in that I did theater and student government. And there was a bully on my team. I can firmly say she was a bully, but I forgive her. I know that high school is hard and everything is fine. But at the time, well, actually, it wasn't her. I'm not going gonna blame her. She was a teenager. The coaches eventually made a rule

that you couldn't miss any practices for anything else. And I was doing soccer and student government and I got kicked off my team for missing a practice to decorate the school hallway for spirit week once, because I was vice president. And I got kicked off because I had soccer practice and I was still, I was like number two in California with not going to every practice.

And soccer was what I loved, running I didn't love, but I was good at and I was like, I can do this in this context, but I was never just gonna run at that age. And so I got kicked off twice, both years. Were they trying to send a message or do you think the coach was just like threatened by you or something? The coach, well, other people got kicked off twice, both years. Were they trying to send a message or do you think the coach was just like threatened by you or something?

The coach, well, other people got kicked off too, but I was like the significant player in the teams, like not having the one of the top athletes there anymore. So it wasn't just me, the coach was an alcoholic and this was like before social media. And I remember I was so mad and I was like, somebody listen, like this feels, it felt sexist actually too,

because there were guys that were multi-sport athletes and they were super celebrated for doing both. And for me, it was like, I was a bad kid. And I think it ended up being a blessing because I went through puberty super normally. Right. You know? Because it screws with women's development

more than men's, I think, being an endurance athlete, right? I mean, I just think that those 16, 17, 18, 19 year old years for women in particular, it's when you're going, that's when we go through puberty, I think for the most part, and our bones, it's like you're building the foundation of your house.

And so if there's anything compromising that, which it doesn't, it's not that running compromises it, but overtraining does. So I didn't do that, and I was happy little soccer player, you know, theater and student government, but it was devastating to get kicked off a team for something that felt unfair. Yeah, did your parents back you up?

So I, just my dad, I grew up with just my dad and he was, okay, my dad was never gonna interfere. My dad is very conflict averse. So he did take a meeting with me and like the Dean, I think but they didn't do anything about it. And we didn't take it beyond that. Like my dad wasn't ever gonna take Control of my life for me. Yeah, that's so yeah, and so compared to most like athlete parents

Yeah, no, he was not that and I think he knew that I might Find it again in my own time and with happiness. Yeah, he was such a good parent in that he honored What was expanding me at the time. Like he knew better than to say, hey, Alexi, you could quit soccer and all these other things and just run. Cause we all knew that was an option. And everybody thought it was crazy for not doing that.

Cause I was so fast. And everyone's like, she'll never run again. And then look what happened. Like it doesn't- Yeah, he gave you space to figure it out. He knew that if I wasn't happy or like feeling expanded, like I don't know what words you use for that. Sure.

That it wouldn't matter any, it wouldn't amount to anything anyway. Like to feel in jail to a. If you hated it, you wouldn't succeed at it. So he gave you space to come back around to it. That's very wisdom filled of him. Then when I came back to it, I was terrible. I was so bad at it.

Just rusty? No, out of shape. I was like in soccer shape. So I couldn't run four miles without walking. And I was on the Dartmouth team because they recruited based on times, but I was so bad. I was like the worst in the whole league. And then my dad was like, just keep trying.

And so he also didn't really give me the option to quit. Right. Gently by saying, just keep trying. That's funny. He let you kind of quit the first time, but then not the second time. Yeah, but I didn't feel like I quit. I feel I was kicked off the, I was kicked off the team.

And he just didn't make me compromise my values and what made me happy for a performance incentive, right? It's funny the memories that we have of stuff too because like I have a vivid memory. Like I was clearly acting out, right? Like that's why I was not taking it seriously. And I remember talking to a friend from high school like not that long ago and I was like,

why didn't any of the coaches just say, you're clearly acting out, you should try, you could really make a thing of this, right? And my memory is that that didn't happen. And he was like, what are you talking about? He's like, they said that to you so many times. So like they saw it and tried to communicate to me what I was doing and I just could not hear it.

And I didn't even remember hearing it. That's so interesting. Do you remember hearing anything at all? No, I just remember them yelling at me. You know what, like I just remember them being like authoritarian or, you know, no fun. You remember the feeling of like discipline, not like the good intention underneath it maybe, right?

Yeah, exactly. Which is interesting because, yeah, it's like a perfume. Like you could smell, it smelled a certain way, it felt a certain way and it didn't really matter. Well, it's kind of helped me as a parent too, because I'm like, why couldn't they have just said these words? And he's like, no, no, no, they definitely said those words.

They definitely said it, so how does it help you now? Well, because you think, oh, all, no, they definitely said those words. They definitely said it, so how does it help you now? Well, because you think like, oh, all you have to do is say this thing. It's like that coach thing where it's like, no one will listen unless they know how much you care. Like, clearly there was some wall between us that was not allowing the message to get through. And so it doesn't, it's like, it doesn't matter what you say,

it matters what people hear and it matters what you make them feel. And so it's just like, your kids are gonna go through things and you're not gonna lecture them into understanding what they need to understand. It's more of an emotional thing and it's an energy thing. And like, it sounds like what your dad did really well was kind of indirectly guide you

and you felt like you were making the decisions as opposed to being forced to do anything or, you know, like he gave you, you felt like you were in control it sounds like. For sure. I mean, he had values, right? And he didn't have very many rules at all, which was like chaotic and made my house the best place to go to after parties in high school. But he did sometimes have opinions.

And so when he does have opinions, they actually carry weight and he's repetitive, right? Like we would eat the same dinners, like every whatever he had, like five things he cooked, but he also had like five things he would come back to saying. So the just keep trying. I've heard him say that so many times. In addition to other things, my dad, he's also been really good in adulthood in helping me realize what I really need and don't need in making decisions that can sometimes be quite confusing. He can help me really simplify.

I can share more if you want, but we don't have to go down that path. Sure, no, no. What do you mean go down that path. Sure, no, no. What do you mean? I'm curious. Well, like, okay. Like after I graduated from Oregon and knew I was gonna try to chase this Olympic dream,

I had two opportunities of how to pursue it. One was like a financial contract with a new company that was embracing me as like an artist and a runner, which I am both. And they even said, if you don't perform while I'm running, you can still make little commercials for us. So it was like, wow, it's like a really great financial situation, creative,

but it provided no coaching, no teammates, no nothing. So I would have to figure all that out, right? Then the other was provided all the intangibles, coaching team and the best in the world. But it was a club where some support would be given to me, but it would be given straight to like my rent and health insurance. So I wouldn't actually have any, I wouldn't save any money.

And in fact, I would still have to buy food and things like that. And my dad asks really good questions. And I was like, I don't know what to do. I have college loans, I'm, you know, all this stuff and I'm 21. And he's like, well, do know what to do. I have college loans, I'm, you know, all this stuff and I'm 21. And he's like, well, do you wanna make ads for a living? And I was like, well, no.

And he was like, okay. He's like, what do you wanna do? And I was like, I wanna go to the Olympics. And he's like, well, which one is gonna take you to the Olympics? And I was like, well, probably the world-class coaches and athletes and enough to survive in Eugene, Oregon, right? And so it made it very simple once he asked me

those questions of, do you want what that is? And I talked to him when I'm making decisions like that and he usually asks me the right questions. So he doesn't give the answers, but he does ask really good questions. ["The Last Supper"] ask really good questions. On January 5th, 2024, an Alaska Airlines door plug tore away mid-flight,

leaving a gaping hole in the side of a plane that carried 171 passengers. This heart-stopping incident was just the latest in a string of crises surrounding the aviation manufacturing giant, Boeing. In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of damning scandals and deadly crashes that have chipped away at its once sterling reputation. At the center of it all, the 737 MAX, the latest season of business wars, explores how Boeing, once the gold standard of aviation engineering, descended into a nightmare of safety concerns and public mistrust, the decisions, denials, and devastating consequences bringing

the Titan to its knees. And what if anything can save the company's reputation? Now follow Business Wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge Business Wars, The Unraveling of Boeing, early and ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Parenting can bring up many unexpected challenges, and there's so much advice out there it can be hard to know where to find real help. I'm Janet Lansbury, host of Unruffled, a podcast with answers to the questions that arise when raising children. I've worked with children and parents for over 25 years, and I'm eager to share all that I've learned with you and most of all,

encourage you to trust yourself. In each episode I address listeners' questions through the lens of my respectful parenting approach. From advice for how to address toddler meltdowns, encourage them to develop their skills naturally and joyfully through self-directed play, for helping when our kids are scared, and so much more. I aim to offer you thoughtful advice that will shift your perspective on challenging topics, making them far less intimidating and overwhelming and free you of the need for scripts and tricks. We can do this.

Follow Unruffled on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Unruffled ad free right now on Wondery Plus. ad free right now on Wondery Plus. In my discipline book, I talk about Queen Elizabeth a lot. And she is so fascinating because the queen is this person of immense influence, but has essentially no power, right? Like the queen has no actual authority. She's like the figurehead, King too.

But in the constitutional monarchy, it's a figurehead, but they get briefed by the prime minister and they are associated with the outcomes. So it's this fascinating thing where they're both powerless and powerful. And what it was said, and I think one of her grandchildren confirmed it too, was that she gets really, she had to perfect the art over 70 years of just asking questions

that made it clear the problem with the stupid thing that you were about to do, or that raised the issue that would allow you to come around and see it differently. And that's like, I think parents think that they have power, but they don't. And so they try to, you know what I mean? They try to do like, do this, don't do that. It's totally ineffectual.

But the actual influence you have is in terms of like, like what your dad was doing, which is like, well, what about this? Or at like figuring out what your kid wants to do and telling them how they can do it is very different than you telling your kid what to do. Because there's that resistance. If you're both trying to go in the same direction,

then it's a very different interaction and relationship. But people are bad at that. Even I've had this with editors on my books, how can you give me notes if you don't know what I'm trying to do? You haven't asked me enough questions for you to give me the feedback that you are giving me. And the reason you haven't asked

is that you fundamentally misunderstand our relationship, which is you think I'm giving you the book you want, as opposed to you buying the book that I want from me. Do you know what I mean? So if you can figure out what the person wants, then you can be aligned. But if you have the ego or the lack of curiosity, it's gonna be an adversarial relationship.

And to get to what you just said, it requires stepping back a few steps, right? Cause if you just look at feedback on a book granularly, it can feel like you get to in the weeds with like, why does this feel off to me? You know, right? Because you're receiving this feedback. And if you're on the surface level with it,

you're just like, I don't know if I agree. But if you take two steps back, you're like, I don't know if this person understands my goal. And if you take another step back, I don't know if this person subscribes to the relationship where they're working with me for me to be myself. And to really get, and then that might connect you with a value of yours to work in those capacities.

And I think, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about people who get steered off course because they're only at the service level of the problem or their fear, addressing a service level fear instead of addressing the real fear, which may be a moot point actually. Like there may not be a fear underneath it all. Yeah, the Seneca line is if you don't know

what port you're sailing towards, no wind is favorable. Oh, that's cool. I like the visual of it too. Yes, but I think that like parents, people, collaborators, bosses, employees, whatever, athletes, coaches, if you're not on the same page about where you're trying to go, you're gonna have a lot of conflict and you're not going to be that effective. But if you can step back and go, where are we trying to go? Are we in agreement about where we're trying to go? Can we get an agreement about where we're trying to go? Once you get clarity about that, then

can we get an agreement about where we're trying to go? Once you get clarity about that, then you can know, hey, this feedback is actually not important or this thing that everyone else is focused on doesn't matter, like where are we trying to go? If you don't have a good answer to that question. So that's why I think so interesting, your dad was like, what do you wanna do? Because comparing and contrasting two options in a vacuum

is, you're just gonna be like, well, what pays more? What's more socially accepted? What seems more fun? But like, if you have a goal or a direction you're trying to go, then a lot of that is gonna turn out to be irrelevant. What really matters is like, does it get you closer to where you're trying to go or not?

Right, and it's a good way also to conflict resolve, as you were saying with the queen, because it's kind of a way to lead from behind is to use a process where you start by sharing the shared goal that everyone can agree on, right? And then go to the obvious problem that maybe people aren't aware of, but just observing it. And then the solution feels like we're all on the same page because like,

we all want this, but this is happening. Therefore, whatever, you know, it's cool. Cause, well that feels like a life with like less resistance too. Yeah, of course. Which sorry, I sometimes I get these thoughts and I was just like, I've been trying to live a life more now where I'm like, there are things wrong, but I'm trying to like make sure something's actually wrong.

What do you mean something's wrong? Like you mean like in the world and personally, what do you mean? No, personally. There's a lot going on in the world. I'm talking about like, I used to whatever, live a life where I was chasing the singular goal. And when you enter a life where you're not,

you're more moving toward feelings and values and there's less needs with that, with like a pursuit. And, but along that journey, there's a lot of like bumping up against things and learning, and then like trying something and then pivoting. And that can feel really disorienting. Unlike the thing where you know where you're going, if where you're going is actually just,

I want to move toward growth or curiosity instead of toward like one piece, one thing. It's much easier, although the goal is hard. It's much easier to be like, I want to be in the Olympics. I want to be the highest paid person in this. I want to be the chief executive of that. It's easier to have what the Stokes would call sort of externals as your goals or your metrics, right? Because it's clear and clarifying.

The problem is you don't actually control whether you get that thing or not, right? And in the more artistic life, I feel like I have no goals. Working hard to have no goals. That doesn't mean I don't work really hard and I'm not trying to get better, but I am no longer interested in, I want this to debut at number one,

or I want this advance to be larger than that advance. I'm not trying to win the thing, I'm trying to do the thing. And that's a little more ambiguous and harder to define. So it's more of a day-to-day challenge than the thing, I'm trying to do the thing. And that's a little more ambiguous and harder to define. So it's more of a day to day challenge than the like, yeah, the Olympics are like a thing you get selected for. There's like a hierarchy and then there's a clear winner and loser. But it can also break your heart because someone, you know, like if you think the New York Times bestseller list is a meritocracy, and so all you have to do is these things,

you're going to wake up one morning having, if you're lucky enough, done those things and then find out you were unlucky enough to not get that thing. And that's going to break your heart. Or piss you off. So how do you think about having no goals then? I think that having goals requires me and everybody to be more in your nurture than your nature, because you have to construct a path towards something highly specific that is often a human invented thing, like a best-selling book or the Olympics. And so you're really resisting,

I've been using this word a lot with myself, the things that compel you, you know, like which is unexpected stuff, and you're controlling everything. So that's in your, you're in your nurture. And I think that I felt I was very much in my nurture chasing the Olympics. What do you mean by nurture?

Nurture versus nature, nurture like I'm creating the self and I'm crafting, I'm like, I'm literally growing muscles. You know what I mean? I'm napping myself. You're like a specialized machine. Yes, and I am the experiment and I am doing it to myself, right? And then I think when you get away

from those external goals or your goal list, which is what you asked about, you have the opportunity to explore more of your nature, which is the way you would move, the way you take in the world if there is no danger or no need to funnel yourself into something so highly specific that it would result in an external accomplishment

that you've decided ahead of time. So to have no goals, I think is exciting. And I think it's like the rest of my life. You're more like Alice in Wonderland or something, and you don't expect it all to be good. And so yeah, my North Star now is like more of a feeling and values. And if an external, it is always attached

to external things, right? You're always doing tasks that are associated with it. But if something gets taken away from me, there's always another way to pursue my values and my goals and my North Star. Yeah, maybe it's like the difference between focusing on inputs versus outputs. So like, are you focused on what you're putting

into the thing or is it all about what you get to take out of the thing, right? So Cheryl Strayed once made this distinction in a, if you ever read Dear Sugar, her like advice thing. She had someone who was talking about like books and she was like, you're confusing writing with publishing or publishing with writing.

Like they were focused on publishing books and she's like, the job is being a writer. So I think about like the verb verse noun. You know, so it's like,'s like, goal is it doesn't mean you're just like sitting around and you don't care. It's like, no, I'm just doing the thing I'm creating rather than trying to like achieve. But that's what I mean by nothing's wrong

is that if you're in the process and you're waking up and living the days that you say you wanna live, whatever, then there is nothing wrong. Like if a problem comes up as a result of being on that path, that's not a problem with the capital P, it's like a problem that is of course, because it's life, right? I use a lot of like metaphors as it makes more sense to me,

but I feel like having no goals is like being an adventurer where you're wearing a big backpack that's full of all your experiences and all your knowledge, your curiosity, your values, whatever, right? And you're marching around and there's other people, but like you're on your own journey and you expect there to be like awesome flowers

and cool animals, but you also expect there to be rain and you expect wild animals. And that to me feels like what life is now. I remember I was hurrying my eight year old somewhere, like it was like a Saturday and I was like, come on, this is like taking forever. And he was like, dad, we've got nothing to do and nowhere to be.

Oh wow. And I was like, oh yeah, it's first off it's Saturday, but second, like I can do whatever I want. I don't have a boss. What do we need to accomplish? There's nothing we need to check off the list. And yeah, there's something about like, if you're like, I gotta finish this thing and get it out,

or I have to win at this thing or whatever, then you're not able to just be in the day-to-dayness of like, I tweaked this and I improved this and I had fun and I learned something like, yeah, you're confusing the inputs and the outputs. Yeah, so okay, the inputs and the outputs are, yeah, I think that makes sense. You're saying people who fixate on the outputs

are never, don't realize that like most of your life is input world anyway. So like just acknowledging that is helpful. Well, the stoic distinction would be like, you control the inputs, but not the outputs. So you're focusing on the thing you're most vulnerable about. Like what I learned, and I've been working a lot on this, is that like my first handful of books,

like I did not have a good time doing, it was painful. Cause it's hard, it's a lot of work and it's vexing and you're struggling and it's not as good as you want it to be and you're fighting with your publisher about that. It was just like a brutal process. And I realized that if the process was not fun, then I was only doing it to get the rewards of the outcome, which is not in your control.

So it's like, if you're only competing because you love winning, you have to win, right? And winning is not actually up to you because you could be against someone who's better and stronger in fashion than you. You could be up against someone who cheats. The Olympics could get canceled. There's so many things that could prevent you

from getting the thing. So your means to an end strategy is inherently vulnerable and inherently dependent on something other than you. But if you can get to a point where you enjoy doing the thing and If the outcome goes your way, that's extra. That's where you want to be. That's where I I'm not there I would say I've said this before but I would say I went from like 90 10 to like 10 90 year but like I flipped it like before I was like 90% outcome Oriented and 10% process and I would say I'm like 90% input, 10% output.

Output. Sometimes when I meet teenage girls, I meet a lot of them. And I can tell in their eyes when they really like, they trust me, but I can tell if something is like, just they're not gonna subscribe to it. And the enjoy the journey is really difficult to tell teenagers. It's easier to enjoy the journey is really difficult to tell teenagers. It's easier to enjoy the journey after you've won also,

or you have any kind of external success because either you feel good or you realize it doesn't make you feel good. Yeah, well, do you know what I tell them then to assume that it's going to be successful, that it's gonna be what they want it to be and how would they embrace the now in that case? Because if you knew you would get what you wanted,

you would be more present. Yeah, you wouldn't hate those things so much. No, and that is usually a harbinger of the good result you want anyway, because it's like a, because it's a, inevitability is like a real energy. Well, I think people think, hey, if I'm not focused on outcomes,

I'm not gonna get the outcome. But the irony is, what you're actually doing is taking your eye off the ball. Golf, to me, is the best metaphor. When you jerk your head up to look at where the ball's going, you shank it. The whole point is you're supposed to have a perfect, fully present swing, and only where the ball's going, you shank it. The whole point is you're supposed to have a perfect, fully present swing, and only after

the ball has left the club and you have finished your follow through that you raise your head and look. Oh, interesting. Like you're not, it's like when you're trying to do it really well, deliberately, and trying to see if you did it well. That's when you fuck it up. Right. I was thinking, is that the same in baseball?

Cause like I played a lot. A little bit. Is it? I feel like you have to keep your eye on the ball, but I guess once you swing. You keep your eye on the ball, but if you're like, if you're thinking about how you're gonna run to first base.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. That's where you're fucking it up. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. You'll trip over yourself or whatever. Yeah. Well, it's like, you still have to hit it first. Like hit it, and then like, you're You'll trip over yourself or whatever. Yeah, well, it's like you still have to hit it first. Like hit it and then like you're creating

like a traffic jam or something. Yeah, well, people get stuck all the time not being in like the chapter they're in and not realizing like what train they're on and or what track they're on rather. And I think people get the most stuck when they're supposed to switch the train track, they know better and they don't switch

like from fitness to health. Like I see people waste so much time, like their goal is fitness when they're healthy, but the minute you realize you're injured, you have to get on the track of I'm trying to be healthy over my overfit. But the ability to be like, what am I supposed to be doing right now?

Just do that thing. Yeah. Like I am in writing mode, not publishing and marketing and PR mode, like just do that thing. And then when you finish this task, move on to the next task. That's like what Chopwood Carry Water is also about. Right, it's everything.

Yeah, easy to say, not so easy to do. Well, but I think it's easy to do once you're doing it. Cause it feels better. Cause you feel- I don't know if it was easy to do, everyone would do it. It's like, it's- Yeah, why don't people do it? I think one of the reasons you focus on outputs

instead of inputs is that outputs give you social validation and there's financial things. It's also, it's also measurable, right? Like the day-to-dayness of being in the thing, just like working on the project, it's hard to know whether you're making progress or not. But if you're just like, well, how many copies did I sell? Or, you know, like when you're focusing on that stuff,

it's just, it's more measurable and quantifiable. So you, it's the day-to-day process of it that my thing is like, did I make a positive contribution to the thing today? So I try to like way, way, way lower the stakes. Yeah, you're just asking for progress. Yes. Or positive contribution. Right, but yeah, I don't know.

It is tough though. It's tough to be goal-less also because people give you credit for talking about your goals and they give you credit for achieving the goals. No one's like, you really fulfilled your creative vision on this project, because that's a totally internal thing that only you know about. Right.

You did what you set out to do. Yeah, that reminds me, there was a review in Variety for my first movie that was really mean about my body, because I was really, you know, I was like in Olympic shape and there was like, this would never happen today, because I think this man- This wasn't like 20 years ago. Yeah, but it was like, he said it was really difficult

to look at my flat chest and freakishly gnarled feet. And it was so crazy because I was like- Imagine writing it. Imagine writing it, but I was like, oh my God, I, my body made this man uncomfortable. And I was like, but writing it, but I was like, oh my God, my body made this man uncomfortable. And I was like, but that's the same discomfort. Cause this is to your point about, he didn't understand my goal.

And I was like, oh, he felt uncomfortable, but the character feels uncomfortable in her body too. And I was like, oh, he felt, and it's not about the way it looks. It's that I was like, oh, I was like, rad, he felt uncomfortable. And I was like, this movie is a little bit about discomfort. Okay, I love that.

One of my favorite things in reviews is when someone says negatively exactly what you set out to do. That's what I mean. But as if it's a fault. That's exactly what happened. And I was like, oh my God, I was like, thank you. You know what I mean?

He was like, I just felt so uncomfortable. And like, this is a girl in a movie who is trying to be romantic with a boy, but she has this Olympic whatever, this kind of, you know, not a typically hot body, I guess, in someone's terms of it, you know? So yeah, you're right. Yeah, I get this all the time.

People will be like, all Ryan is doing is taking the ideas from the stoics and connecting them with stories from history. And I'll be like, bro, that's like the log line of the project that I set out to do. Yes, that's awesome. And you're saying it negative. And what they're saying is, this was not for me.

And what I was saying is, this is not for you. These are for these people over here. But what they don't realize is that what they're actually admitting is that it was not for them, you know? But part of the way you have to insulate, I think when you decide to focus on what you were trying to accomplish and your vision,

and you have clarity about what that is, as opposed to just vaguely sort of following something, wherever it goes, is that when you have that clarity, then you can read a negative review and take it as positive. Because it confer, like, like he thought he was hurting your feelings or condemning the work, but you're like, you actually just, the title of your review should have been mission accomplished. You know, it's interesting about what you're saying is that you're basically saying that

you need to know your own goal before you go out in the world and like receive other people's analysis of your goal. But earlier in our conversation, we were saying that we don't have goals anymore. And so I think we do have goals. It's just, it's different kind of goal, right? Well, they're not external goals. So it's like, if I had an internal goal.

If I had a creative vision, then I'm either gonna achieve that vision or not. But if my goal is to have the number one movie. So that's the- You do have goals, you have internal goals now. Goals isn't the right word though. It's like I have things I'm trying to do as opposed to contests I'm trying to win.

Yeah. And like I'm focusing my energy on the parts of it that are up to me versus the parts that are not up to win. And I'm focusing my energy on the parts of it that are up to me versus the parts that are not up to me. And I have clarity about what I'm trying to accomplish, which is maybe different than what I'm hoping to achieve. That's the distinction, I think. I mean, there's something so nice about sports and that they're very binary.

They're very binary. And if someone is on the team, like I realized this recently, like if someone's on a team, you assume that they were like good enough to be there, right? Like some, they had to hit a certain standard or the coach picked them, they did tryouts.

And you assume that like you're aligned in your goals and it's equitable and all this stuff. And it's simple with performance, as you said, it's also simple with your orientation with other people in that world, because you're either good at the sport or not, and it's relatively clear. And I think in a non-sports world,

it's become very clear to me that it's not as simple. The evaluation is not as simple. And so when you step into a room, I don't know, it can be complicated. You're either in the NBA or you're not. That's what I mean. And to be a professional filmmaker or artist or influencer or creative, it's a much vaguer thing.

And there's a lot of people pretending and then a lot of people aspiring. And so it's harder to know where you sit in. So you have to become much more internally focused and internally driven about like what I'm trying to do, what success is for me. And then what race you're running. The difference between like in a cross country race

or the Olympics, it's like you all started at the same time and you're all finishing at the same finish line and you're all after the same three medal spots or whatever, right? But like if you're just out for a run on a, what's the day, Thursday, like somebody started before you, somebody started after you, somebody's recovering from an injury,

someone's doing it for fun, somebody's trying to lose weight. You know, we're all running for different reasons doing different things and you gotta have a much stronger sense of the race that you're running or you're gonna find yourself competing with this random stranger who you happen to have aligned with for two seconds,

but you're playing almost different sports. Yeah, and I think that it takes time alone to hear those thoughts for yourself. And I think that's a big we I need to do more of is like spend more time alone to be more and more in touch and realign realign realign and recalibrate because sometimes my alignment will change but I need to like notice that and then recalibrate almost like you know like a Pokemon becoming a you know like I need to evolve. Pokemon evolution? Yeah, sometimes I feel like I have to have moments

where I'm like, oh, I'm no longer this, or I no longer care about these things, or my values have evolved, but if I don't take the time to see the Pokemon evolve, I can be in my default settings in thought a lot. I have an ear on, so I hear a lot about Pokemon evolution, so this metaphor is funny to me. That's awesome.

I was gonna be like, I have a boyfriend, he's really into Pokemon cards too, so people don't always outgrow it. That's awesome. It's hard for me with my kids, because when I was in high school, Pokemon was very not cool. Oh wow.

So it's like, you have kids, and then these things stick around in ways that you didn't, I'm sure it was like I was into heavy metal as a kid, like 80s heavy metal, and so my parents were probably like, what the fuck is this? This is not for people, like, this is not for us.

You know? And so now with my kids, I'm like, why do we have to go to these comic book stores? And like, why, you know, like they're into things that like I have preconceived notions of from what they culturally were when I was a kid. Yeah. One of the teenagers in the bookstore the other day

was like listening to Nickelback. Oh no, because it's post-ironic. Yes, to him it's just music that's like at this point, 20 years old or whatever. And to me it's like, no, this is a not cool band. Yes, no, it's post-ironic. Which is my favorite word to have learned from the Gen Z. You know what that is, right?

Yeah, it's just, it is what it is at this point. It's become, but it had to do its whole cycle. It's so funny. There's so much post irony right now. And maybe it's giving us a greater appreciation for things that we didn't like. Although I don't like Nickelback, I'll just say it. No, but you realize, oh yeah, this is different.

You perceived things based on the lens that was true for you at that time or was culturally prevalent, but it's not based on it. It's probably not some sort of blind sound test or where you're, you know what I mean? If someone could give you a Nickelback song that you've never heard before and you were perceiving it not knowing it was Nickelback,

might you be like, it's not terrible. Right, you're saying its context has informed so much of how we see things, the context. It's the same way with even words. I get so, I think now that I'm meeting more people who did not grow up with me, you meet people who it's a whole different, so the way that they learned certain words,

meant certain things. And it can cause so much- What's an example? Well, an example could be the word odd. Like someone, if someone says, I find it odd. To me, that's very like mean sounding, adjacent to like bad or weird in a bad way. Versus eccentric or yeah.

Odd could be like totally benign. And so I think it's just like certain words. And I'm such a, I was like a trained poet, right? In college, like words, I think they carry so much weight. And yet they maybe they don't have any weight at all. Because if it can mean one thing, you know what I mean? It's so confusing. I was talking to someone from California the other day

and they were like, what's this like, they were complaining about the word Riz, which is short for from charisma, like Gen Z says Riz. They do? That's what you'd say if someone is just like, charisma has good vibes, like it's just like, you know, that person has Riz, they're like, people flock to them.

And I was like, what do you think rad is short for? Like, you think rad is a fucking word? You know? No, yeah. That's funny. They're like, they're just taking words and cutting them in half. It's like, yeah, that's what people do.

That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's what we do. ["The Last Supper"] deal. UFO lands in Suffolk and that's official, said the News of the World. But what really happened across two nights in December 1980 when US servicemen saw mysterious lights in the forest near RAF Woodbridge and claimed to have had a close encounter with an actual craft? Encounters, a new podcast available exclusively on Wondery+,

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exclusively and ad free on Wondry+. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or in Apple podcasts. I want to talk about mentors. Let's talk about mentors. So you're thinking, though, not just of mentors, but the mentors of people's mentors. Like, it's interesting to me how you're chasing, like, I guess in sports, they're called a coaching tree. Do you know that term? Is a coaching tree just like that there's a lineage,

like a tradition that they come out of? Yeah, like for instance, I read about this in my last book. I think Greg Popovich has the greatest coaching tree in sports. Like his assistants have gone on to do the most things. Yes, yes, yes. Like Steve Kerr is one of, and Steve Kerr has his own coaching tree at this point.

Yes. Right, so it's not just like, hey, this person, help this person, but like that you really evaluate the totality of someone's career and impact, not just like on what they've done, but what they've allowed other people to do. Yeah, and that's very true with all sports, right? Like you can, running, you know, it's interesting

because for individual sports, looking at Like you can, running, you know, it's interesting because for individual sports, looking at coaching trees makes it feel less like these individuals are just asteroids floating free because they really do come from, like I could name like two different coaches, for example, where yeah, it's a tree. And it's gonna be like, it's a, we already have them out of forest,

stop trying to find another one. And the interest in mentorship for me started as a necessity. So it's like, it comes from a real place of like, I lost my mom very young and in a confusing way, whatever, she took her own life. And I was like, all right, I don't have this one person. And it would have been very easy and simple to say that,

to create laws, like life is unfair, I don't have access to this mystery, this abundant mystery that is a mom, which is still an abundant mystery to me. Although Tina is like the closest thing I have to a mom. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Like a surrogate parent.

Yeah, she's like the coolest and grew up in the Bay Area and now that's why I spend lots of time out here. Yeah, she's like a truly like a mom figure to me. But so I had a choice to say I don't get to have a mom and I get to have nothing else or I get to have everything else. Sure. You know, and so mentors to me became, you know,

the word to me, it can be limiting. To me, it means anyone that you learn from. A mentor is. Yeah, I think a person becomes a mentor to you, even if they're not aware of it, right? Someone- No, it's so dumb. People think it's this official thing. You know, like in apprenticeships,

used to be like you were basically sold as a work slave to a blacksmith or like a whatever, right? Or like to become a Navy captain, you would be like attached as a cabin boy. It was this kind of process where like, it was so horrible that like they had to legally codify it so you couldn't escape once you started. But the best relationships, mentor relationships today are very informal

and they evolve over time. It's not like a, will you be my mentor? We're gonna talk on the phone three times a week at 2 p.m., like it's not how it goes. And they're also not your mentor unless you actually learn from them. So, right? Like if someone says they're your mentor,

even if it's a mentor program, but you don't absorb anything, are they your mentor? Like, no says they're your mentor, even if it's a mentor program, but you don't absorb anything, are they your mentor? Like, no, they're your mentor, just like their job title. But it's not- They're like a counselor or something. Yeah, and mentor is not a job title. It's like, it's an exchange. It's a relationship that comes from, I think,

feeling that you're changed by somebody, that you're impacted. So I think it really is about, you're not changed unless you really are too, right? Like it has to really feel true for you. And so I've been very interested in this subject and I just realized that I want yummy, yummy knowledge. Like I wanna learn and I can't live like a million lives.

And so I'm always, I think the idea of having this Mentor Buffet podcast was like,, I think the idea of having this mentor buffet podcast was like, now I get the opportunity to talk to people and learn from who they learned from. And by that I am learning about them, but it's a little less direct. There's a little like nostalgia and gratitude in it, which feels fun.

Have you read Mark Shulis's meditations? I read some of it in a class where I didn't fully read it, which is so embarrassing. So book one of meditations is just called Debt and Lessons, and it's just, this is his private journal, and it just takes, it's almost 10% of the book, but he just lists all the things he learned

from the most influential people in his life. Really? It's beautiful. I'll give you one, I have my own edition of it. But like he, so Marx realized when you hear emperor, you're like, oh, your dad must've been the emperor. And what happened actually is there were five Roman emperors or I guess three in a row that don't have a male heir.

So they each have to adopt. So it creates this precedent where each emperor is adopting who they think is a worthy successor. And in the Roman tradition, adoption often happened late in life. You could get adopted in your forties or fifties into a family who needed to like carry on the tradition. Mm-hmm.

Here's a quick one. That's awesome. Seneca's brother is in the Bible, but his name isn't Seneca, which is like the family name, because he is adopted by this family and he changes his name to be them. I feel like you're the living example of knowledge is like power.

And I mean that you know so much. And I was just observing and I was like, and you're able to use all this knowledge to like contextualize and understand and then have your own thoughts. And it's just really cool. It's really cool to just hear you say things. Cause I'm like, oh, he knows so much.

I know some about some things, but, but anyways, the point I wanted to make. I was just like, I was like, you know, a lot of things. So there's this chain where Hadrian is not the best dude, but he sees something in this kid, this kid who would become Marcus Aurelius, but he's too young, so he can't, Hadrian knows that he doesn't have much time left.

So he wants this kid to be emperor, but he needs someone to help him. And- Yes, yes, I know this, yes. So he adopts this older man named Antoninus Pius, who's like the dominant Roman politician of that time, on the condition that he adopt Marcus Aurelius. And so the most beautiful passage

in the beginning of meditation, it's like if you watch Game of Thrones, as soon as Hadrian dies, Antoninus just kills Marcus and then, like that's how it should go. And instead, Antoninus, who was supposed to live for like a couple of years, rules for the next two decades and he mentors Marcus, who becomes effectively his co-emperor or his COO, and sets this kid up

to become like this philosopher king. But there is this beautiful, it's what, he does another one later, but there's, I mean, look, it's almost three full pages of everything he learns from this man who they have no blood relation to. And you could almost see as like enemies, like whose bloodline is gonna make it

as one would have cared about then. And instead it's this sort of remarkable like surrogate parental relationship. He refers to him as his adopted father. And I just, I think that's so beautiful. Like, and the things that he learned, it's very clearly not things that they talked about. Like everything, he's not like,

I remember the time he told me to ever do this. It's things he learned by simply watching him exist. Which is so much of, right? Cause it's also interesting to know what people learn and how they learn. Yes. Cause some people do learn best by being told like a coach type relationship, right?

But a lot of people do learn simply by being around people. And that's where there's a big gap in maybe access to people, right? And so that's another reason why I'm interested in it is because can we at least give some of the Genesee Clav, what it felt like, can we still share that without having being in the room with all these incredible mentors?

Maybe, like we'll see, I think so. And it seems like this is an abundant perspective to have on the world. Yeah, it would be a shame if you could only learn from people you met and spent time in person with. Yeah, that's almost maddening. And if you're trying to help people feel more present, it takes you basically away from where you are

to feel like you need to go find all this stuff. So yeah, and maybe it also goes back to what you are saying about there's a lot we can't control like about the outcomes, right? And a lot of what I think I'm seeing these people that I'm talking to and what their mentors are showing them, a lot of it is not changing what they do. It's changing how they think. Yes. You know, and I think that that's where we can really help people because a lot of times we actually can't change the outcome or even the situation, right,

that we're in, the present. But to see it differently is like a whole new universe. It's like seeing, you know, it's like a, oh my God, like I've been, we probably shouldn't nerd out about this right now, but I've been writing, I'm writing an adaptation of a bestselling book into a movie and I'm trying to like capture in the movie, like almost like a different perspective on like the present for various reasons.

But I really think there's a whole other universe like in what's happening right now, like with just how you see it. And I think that some of this mentorship stuff is about not just changing your life, but changing how you see it. And I think that some of this mentorship stuff is about not just changing your life, but changing how you see your life. Well, the stoic idea is that every situation, this is from Epictetus,

is every situation has two handles, one that will bear weight and one that won't. And so what handle are you gonna grab the situation by? And I think what mentors often can help you do, whether you just one, or you just experienced what you think is a humiliating failure. They can be like, I went through that and I thought what you thought at first

and then I've come to understand this. And they can give you that. It's like, you'll probably come around to that understanding eventually, but maybe it doesn't need to take 10 years. Okay, so what is it to bear weight? Is it to feel? He just means it'll hold like it'll,

Oh, oh! Cause it's a handle, right? So it's like one, you can pick it up and the other it'll break. Oh, it'll hold weight. Oh my God, a bear weight. Oh, I get it. The approach will bear weight.

It's like one's the right handle and one's the wrong handle. And we often grab by the wrong hand cause we don't know any better. Right. So, and that just makes me think like, if we, that just goes back to the thing I was saying about nothing's wrong of like, okay, if, and things are wrong,

but I mean with how we feel about situations. So sometimes there's bad pain and like you need to get out of a situation. I think that we also need to know the difference between like sensations and threats and things. But if it's a sensation, if something feels off, right? Which is maybe the wrong handle. Some of what this mentorship stuff can do

is help us find the right handle, right? Yes. And what I was gonna ask you is, do you think then that part of our role in our own lives is to be more aware when something feels off that isn't actually a threat. Like something where you're like, this should feel, like there should be a different way to see this. And then that's when we should either reach

for a different perspective or like search for one within us. Yeah, and then also have someone you can run shit by. Right, do you have that? Yeah, so my mentor was this guy, Robert Greene, who wrote the 40 Laws of Power and Mastery. He was this great writer. I mean, he is, I'm gonna call him on my drive home today because I haven't talked to him in a while.

And I was his research assistant. And so I learned not just like how to do all this stuff, but then I sort of learned just like how to be a pro, you know, like how the craft and the life works. And so yeah, I've run a lot of stuff by him. You know what I want though? I want a sponsor. I'm not like in 12 step, but I would like like a sponsor.

And what does that mean to you? Like someone, just like someone you call before you do shit. You know, because- I want that too. I want that too, because I feel I'm having trouble making certain decisions. And it can't just be my dad. Yeah, well it's like in recovery, you're like, hey, is this a sober decision or an addict decision?

Oh my God, I want this so badly. There's obviously a healthier decision and a not healthy decision. And it's not quite in the veering into like, oh, you have a problem with this substance or this thing. But it's like, I really could use someone who's just like, I really could use someone who's just like, yeah, have you thought about this?

And do you mean for like across the board in your life? Yeah, it's like life, yeah. Oh my God, I love this so much. And that's not something that you can ask of like, even a therapist, because that person isn't actually even meant to help you know what to do. They're supposed to help you understand yourself, but you know, it's like neutrality

and whatnot. It's not. Mentors are, I think, more often than not, like more successful than you. That's like, there tends to be a professional or a context, right? But like in 12 Step, it's like, no, this person is just more sober than you.

Like they could be a manual laborer and you could be the CEO of a powerful company, but they are further along the path than you in this domain. I was gonna say, they're a step beyond you in a way. And in that context, it is in that way. And they kind of don't care about any of your professional shit. Which is good and important so that you take this one seriously regardless of the other stuff, right?

And that sort of, that feels, yeah, because well, some of what good mentorship does is help you become less confused and yeah, know what to do, but I think become less confused and have more access to like yourself. Wow, I want one of those too. Well, if I find one, I'll let you know. Yeah, cause that would be so cool.

Cause like, someone is just gonna respond to this and be like, that's called a friend. Like that's just called a friend or like that's what- But it's not, it's different than friendship. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I call my friends for these things, but tell me how you think it's different than friendship. Friendship has like a social component

where you have fun together and you... This is just a like hurt people, helping hurt people or something. You know what I mean? This is just like... Do you imagine it's a equitable exchange or is it... No, I think about this with mentorships. There is a reciprocity in mentorships,

but mostly you don't pay your mentor back, you pay it forward. Yes, that's right, that's right. It's like, this person is helping you and they're getting you to a place and then you have to be that to someone else. I think there's a reciprocity more in friendship that would not be in this hypothetical thing

I'm describing. Yeah, what would this kind of mentorship help you with most? I think it would just help you be a fucking person, which is hard. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because they know more than you in this case. Like, are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They have wisdom. Yes. Yes. Right. Exchange of wisdom. And perspective and all that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I want one of those things too.

Those things. I want one of those dynamics in my life. And I mean, it's, it can be very disappointing too, when you outgrow a mentor. Yeah. Like, cause I was thinking- Or just in one domain, you're like, oh, I can't ask you about this stuff anymore. Yeah. You wanna go check out some books in the bookstore?

And we've talked about this more cause I have some books I wanna show you. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

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