The Daily Stoic - Anthony Everitt on Nero, Rome’s Most Misunderstood Emperor

Episode Date: February 22, 2023

Ryan speaks with Anthony Everitt about his book Nero: Matricide, Music, and Murder in Imperial Rome, how Rome would have been different if Nero were free to become a musician, why Nero’s overbearing mother contributed to his lack of moral compass, and more.Anthony Everitt is a British professor, author and historian of ancient Rome. His critically acclaimed books about Roman history include Cicero: The Life and Times of Rome's Greatest Politician, Augustus: The Life of Rome's First Emperor, The Rise of Rome: The Making of the World's Greatest Empire, and The Rise of Athens: The Story of the World's Greatest Civilization. He also publishes historical essays regularly in The Guardian and The Financial Times.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast where each weekday we bring you a Meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stalk Podcast. Just to give you a sense of how excited I was

to have this guest on to do this interview. The first time we scheduled, it didn't happen because there was a time difference mix up there over in the UK. And if I was looking for an excuse not to do it, I probably would have taken it. Then there was a second time when there was a bunch of technology issues, and it didn't happen,

despite being blocked out on the schedule. And then the third time, it wasn't until 45 minutes or so into our schedule time that we finally managed to get connected to do the interview. And this wasn't just me sitting around waiting but my whole team had to call and follow up is a whole bunch of stuff. But it was a bill I was glad to pay

because I am a huge fan of today's guests. And in fact, I pulled up my Amazon order history, and I found that my relationship with today's guest goes back at least 12 years. I ordered his book Augustus, the Life of Rome's first emperor on January 14, 2011. I'm pretty sure I read his book about Cicero long before that. And I guess I would have got it at Barnes and Noble or Borders.

I may have even read it when I was in college. He's one of the greatest writers on the Romans. He is a former visiting professor in the visual and performing arts at Nottingham Trent University. He's written extensively on European and classical culture. And his books, I think, are a really good entry point into the ancients.

I think biographies, such a great way to understand not just an individual, but a whole swath of history. And these are just super entertaining biographies. They go into great detail, but not so much detail that you don't know what to do with it. He has a great eye for detail, a great flair for storytelling. He knows how to suck you and keep you interested. Get to the essence of that person. And when I heard that he had a new book out, even more directly related to the Stokes

and his previous works. I got very excited. His new book, Nero, Matroside Music and Murder in Imperial Rome came out in November. And Nero was the Boogieman to the Stoics for many, many years. Seneca began as his tutor. He met Nero as a very young man. And then as if you've read my book, Lives of the Stoics, Nero plays a large part in the life of Thracia, he plays a large part in the life of Cornetus, plays a large part in the life of a grippiness and a number of the other Stoics.

There's even a whole group called the Stoic opposition. And these are the sort of fighters against Nero's excess. I've recommended James Rom's biography dying every day, Santa Cah in the Court of Nero. Well, this is more a look at Nero and what made Nero tick was he misunderstood by history or perhaps properly understood by history. No one is better to answer this question

than the great Anthony Everett. It was a great conversation. I had a great time. I think we got into the nitty gritty on Nero. We really do a deep dive into Seneca and the complexity and both what made Seneca great and why he's also a cautionary tale. So I'm excited to bring you this interview with Anthony Everett. Do check out his new book, Nero, Matroside Music and Murder in Imperial Rome,

and definitely read his book, Augustus, and his book on Caesar, if you want to know more about the Stoics. And I didn't know that he'd written a book about Hadrian, which I am about to grab now, because I want to read that too. All right, everyone, enjoy. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen

to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Anthony, thank you so much for taking the time. I would say connecting over Zoom is tested both of our stoicism. You're kidding me. Well, I'm a huge fan. I have read your Augustus book. I have read your Cicero book and I very much enjoyed your Nero book. So this

is a complete honor for me. I think it's going to be on to Call of Duty. Well, I read a minute years ago. Roddy, who you just saw, who's a better technician than I am, wrote, shared credit with me for Nero. Yes, yes. Well, let's let's start with Nero because you seem to be the most qualified person I could ask this question, which I remain fascinated with. So, bear with me a historical parallel. Marcus Aurelius loses his father when he's young.

He has a very influential strong mother influence in his life. He's then introduced pretty early on to a philosophy teachers, one who teaches him and introduces him to stoicism. As a teenager, he is put in line for the throne, and then eventually he becomes emperor. and then eventually he becomes emperor. Nero loses his father early on, has a strong, motherly influence in his life, is introduced to stoic philosophy, set in line for the throne, and then their story is wildly diverge. What happened? It's a very good question, Dr. Kertzmied. There's a parallel, it's no between the two lives. I think that there's different people, I mean, the two similar lives, and underneath that, and the thing about Nero is that he had a very,

very problematic childhood, because he had this terrible mother, and groupina, who was the mother from hell, really, because she wanted to push him forward, pushing forward and pushing forward. Like those mothers who want their daughters to go to dance classes and become ballerinas. So it was very much like that. And I think that Nero, as he grew up, his teams, N a decided that he didn't really like public life, what he really wanted to be was a professional musician based above all in the cultural capital

city of the Western world then, and Alexandria, that's what he really wanted to do. And you can see his reign as not selection attempts to implement biceps of the sclerosis of them, but more really to break away from the thought, which is Mother laid for her. But once, of course, he became Emperor, quite funny Emperor, because you can do what you want. So he didn't entirely object it. But in a sense, his upbringing was countered by his very

obstinate news to turn into break away from the lessons of his mother. Well, you know, that's actually another parallel between the two of them because it doesn't seem like Marcus really is particularly wanted to be emperor either. but maybe one of them had a stronger sense of duty and obligation and the other love was a tad more self-indulgent. Even more than a tad, but yes, he was quite right, he was quite right. Marcus Aurelius was an honest and honorable man, and he was quite right, he was quite right. I mean, Marcus already was a non-ist, an honorable man,

and he was quite a good emperor, and his rather tragic that he ended his reign fighting the Adamani, or the LeValka Mani, and the LeValka Mani, and the LeValka Mani, because he was a pacific man, he didn't really want to do all that, but he did it efficiently. It's a bit impenetrable, his came up to him and said, Mar Marcus, you've done well by this. You really have to accept a one thing.

He's leaving us a son. His son being communist, who's not the pastor. Well, you know, and that's interesting with, with Neuro also, he's not technically the heir, right? It's sort of a convoluted process by which he comes to the throne, same with Marcus. But Marcus did seem to benefit from the idea that,

it's like they say, you know, power is best held by people who want at least. Marcus really saw it as this obligation, this duty to be worthy of, and Nero seems to have seen it as a hindrance or a burden that was placed upon him that he wanted to get away from. I think that's right.

One of the great problems of the Roman Empire was they failed to establish a sufficiently useful system for organising the succession. And Adrian is real hero in this story because Adrian set up a series of adoptions. The adopted Antoninus was a Mindre than an uninteresting senator, but quite safe. He had to approve of Marcus as his son. So that actually solved the problem of the succession for quite a while. The thing with Nero was successful, there's not at all clear, because there were loads of people who had tiny bits of Augustus' blood in them, who were descendants of him, and it was not at all clear which one

was the proper successor, and that was really one of the reasons why Nero was so cruel to his distant relatives and cousins, and why being more like, because if he wasn't careful, then one of them ought to be more forward to compete against him. Wasn't Seneca's joke to Nero that you can't eliminate all of your successors? Perfect, it's a very good line. I do. Go ahead. No, I'm just going to say I'd rather like Senaiko.

I want to talk a lot about Senaiko with you. Okay, well, far away. But to go back to Marcus, though, and the succession issue that you just brought up, it's really interesting, right? Because at first glance, when you look at Nero, you go absolute power corrupts absolutely, that's clearly what happens here.

But you don't have to go much further down the line to see Marcus Hadrian and Antoninus Marcus Reales in a handful of other examples that that doesn't have to be the case. So I wonder if your view study Nero is it that absolute power corrupts absolutely, or is it as the biographer Robert Carros says that actually what power does is reveal,

and it shows what's truly there underneath. And is that what happened with Nero? I like that. I prefer that option. I think that's very wise and very good. The thing about Nero is, is a player that gives a rotter before he became emperor. So you can't read them all, all the omnipotence for his behaviour. His behaviour was pretty

kind of stroking when he was just a difficult teenager. It's a sort of a slow moving car crash that anyone could have predicted. Yes, except for one crew, one one important person is mother. Yes, she's a bit blind to his faults. Yes, and also also completely different scenario. What she said had to go. What do you buy of the argument, though, that the first couple years of Nero's reign were not so bad? First five years, the Kuwaitian, the Happy Kuwaitian. Yes,

they were, and that was because he was only a boy of 16, not so many of that, when he started. She arranged for Celica and the Pretoria and Pre at Burras to look after the show and continue to train hero when he was fully grown. So that was put into effect. It worked very well until eventually he decided, I'm going to be, well why am I letting these two age gentlemen look after my business, what's my business? And gradually he moved away from Celica, although it took some time before he behaved really despotically. And of course, it was about the same time that he began to get thoroughly cheesed off with his mother, and decided that it was time's edge, which he should bid the world good night.

So, so Senka is in exile. He runs a foul of Claudius. That's right. He never forgets him. Never forgets him. And so the, the, the, the Caterpillar Claudius in the pumpkinification, the unproclaudius. Proof that the Stoics have a sense of humor, I would say. Yes, rather than a heavy-handed one, a rather scatological one.

Yes. So, so, so, Senica is basically recalled by, by Nero's mother. Tell us what happens and their relationship. That would be the summer. We don't really know how, but summer manages to persuade Claudius. It was where Selec was actually OK, but he was a rising man.

He was a brilliant lawyer, brilliant speaker, public speaker and so forth. And he seemed sort have taken the point, but it was her pushing that got Senator back. And he doesn't realize that he's basically making a deal with the devil. No, no, he does not. Because she eventually gets tired of him.

Of course, there's that famous dish of mushrooms which puts an end to Claudius. And do you think, Seneca, Seneca is obviously looking for a way back into power. He probably would have accepted an offer for many one at any time at this point, but do you think Ska does a good job tutoring Neuro? Was it a lost cause? Well, I probably lost cause. I think that he, if you read his,

well, what he says in his essay on Langer, you see that he has very modern ideas, modern by our standards, ideas about, for example, green young men up being children up, pace them, don't hit them, don't over discipline them, losing a work everywhere with Nero. But the principle of making childhood an education enjoyable and with rewards. It's a very good principle that people have discussed here today. So I think it was quite a good teacher, although yes. Have you seen the famous statue of Nero and Sennaka? It's, I've always seen it as kind of the embodiment of you can lead a horse to water,

but you can't make them drink. Yes, exactly right. But yes, yes, I agree with that. But Senegal is a good educationist, and he deserved better. But eventually, as I said earlier, it was inevitable that they should have come to a parking of the ways. So, Seneca did not approve of the death of Agrippina. It is quite useful that they owned a background making trouble because it meant that Nero would depend on Seneca and Burrus more. So, once she was completely a way of removing the scene, then he turned on Senna

Cohen-Barris on Senna Cohen. And that was the end of ultimately, that was the other Senna Cohen. Well, there's the argument even at the time that Senna is presenting himself as a positive influence or as we came to say during the Trump administration of certain people, they were the adult in the room. But even at the time, some people questioned whether he was actually more of an enabler or whether he was complicit in Neuros crimes and in Neuros ongoing sort of viability as ahead of state. What do you think of that tension or that argument? It's very difficult to you can't pin Senna Kadown.

He's a very clever politician. And he knows how not to say things that will get him into trouble later. And that with the with the title conspiracy. Yeah. The same thing happens. He is extremely cautious about how he goes about things. So it's difficult to be quite sure to may the blame or praise anything particular that Seneca does.

It's better to read his writings and the response of them rather than his actual life. I mean, he was, the thing about Senchka is that he really did not live according to the principles that he set out in his, that is the little curious his other essays. And his behaviour in Britain, it was Britain but scandalous. Being loads of money in on the basis that the money that was being poured into the new province of Britannia, the purpose was not to give them gifts, but actually he's gifts turned into loans, which then needed

to be brought back very hastily. And that was a bad behaviour by any standards on the tragic as far, but his one surviving, his one good quote, one behaviour behavior could give him some credit was that he acknowledged it. He said, I know that I'm my principles. I know I'm betrayed them. I know I don't know about them. But I did my best. I did do his best all the time either. We hear totally right, you know, Sennaka, the philosopher is quite clear and easy to pin down. Sennaka, the politician, you said it, as you said, is wily and complex and contradictory. But that may be itself, I mean, I was thinking about it. It's like, there was no gray area as to where Kato stood in regards to Caesar.

And that's Sennaeneca's great hero. And yet we don't we don't know what he truly thought about Nero because he much more he was much more Ciceroian in the sense that he was willing to play both sides if if it suited him. This is how Cicero Cato that he thinks he's living in tapers Republic rather

than the middle of the X command of Rome. That's the new way you set the new way, Cato's to. That's true. That's true. And perhaps, Senator, would say, well, Cato died an ineffectual, martyred politician. This is a much more complex, you know, this is the real world. And yet they both end up going out the same way. Yes, what is slightly disruptible about Senaqa's death is that he staged it. He presented it as a performance.

They sure are references to, Socrates and the Athenian method of capital punishment and so forth. So that, whereas when you read the Bethesocrates in Plato, there is a genuine tragedy happening, and people are genuine in his sorrow. He feels that there's more applause than sorrow in the reception to Senica's suicide. Yeah, I want to circle back to his death because it has been so mythologized and it is so interesting. It has been so mythologized and it is so interesting. It's just, I not just contrast Sennaka with Kato, but also, there were still ex at the time who responded differently to Nero, obviously.

You talk about some of them in the book, but Thracia seems like such a radically different approach. They're of similar ranks, similar positions, same philosophy, and yet they read neuro quite differently. They didn't have the empire though. Kater had to republi or justify the idea probably. But Fassia and the historic opposition were confronted by something quite different. The empire was unlikable, not like by them, not approved of by them,

but they couldn't think they're the indifferent. There was no idea, I mean, it was viable, and we're a replacement. So they had to knuckle down and put up with Amprus and Prudorian guards, put up with states state suicides. And so in a way, Thassia and his Stoics, they suffer from the tragedy of fails intentions. I mean, when you look at the stoic opposition and then Seneca, they seem to have chosen very different responses to the same tyranny and injustice.

Why do you think they go in this different? Do you think Seneca was wrong? I'm just curious why there's such a divergence there. That's an interesting question, and I'm not sure as I know the answer, but it may be that some members of the Stoke opposition certainly their behaviour seems to suggest that they weren't very bright, they weren't always the sort of sharpest knife in the draw, Sennake was sharp, he was sharp, you know that a bust of Sennaman? Yes. Rather jaily. I mean, he doesn't look. I expect a so to be in between,

called physical trim. And you see that you can hardly guess that that's the case if that statue has any truth to it, which I'm sure it does. You see that you've got truth to it, which I'm sure it does. You see that you've got any North Greece, if you know what I mean, who's able to play the game of politics very able, and in that sense, leaving his principles a little bit on one side. No, you're right for people who don't know. The famous image of Sennaka, of him gone,

and with sort of long hair, that's what we call pseudosennaka. And then there's the- There's a chubby, jaily one. Yes, I've always taken it to be that pseudosennaka is what Sennaka wanted to look like and jaily Sennaka is who Senka wanted to look like and Jali Senka's who he actually was. Perfect, perfect. The Jali Senka looks like a 17th century king or an 18th century, or an 19th century American

war politician or a mafia boss or something. Yes, I think that's exactly right. Yes, it's some Russian musical. Yes, he's living high on the hog. And, you know, Senika does talk about, he says, you know, it's not contradictory for philosopher to be rich. He said, provided your money is not stained in blood. But it does seem like Nero's regime, as you talk about in the book, was about as stained in blood as a regime could be.

I agree with that entirely. But we're doing down Senator a bit too much. I mean, I think that one other thing that interested me in that cynical, although I didn't write that because my book was really about narrow, is it's a combination of Christianity. I mean, I've got a quote somewhere, if I can read it. God is near you, he writes to Lucilius. He's with you, he is within you. This is what I mean, Lucilius. I only speak in 12th-Velunas, one that marks our good and bad deeds and is our guardian. And we treat this spirit, so we treat it by my side, as we hear. In me, no man can be good without the help of God. Now that is kind of a Christian bishop would have accepted that in the reign of Constantine. So there is something quite important about the soisism. We mustn't forget that soisism enabled the ruling class in Rome to abandon those multiple

gods and goddesses, get banknoting on Mount Olympus. Very untrustworthy, I just thought that would be, because it's snowy, that's the year. But the state religion was not a religion that an individual could enjoy and inhabit. It was a series of ceremonies and rituals, and one sort of another. of some ceremonies and rituals, and I want to tell to my other. No, the soiks, and I think, the medical mandum, see the world in much the same way as the early Christians.

And that explains, helps to explain why socialism goes at the end of the third century, goes right out of fact and disappear, more or less from view. And the reason it has to be the emergence of Christianity is a better socialism. Ah, the Bahamas. What if you could live in a penthouse above the crystal clear ocean working during the day and partying at night with your best friends and have it be 100% paid for? FTX Founder Sam Bankman Freed lived that dream life, but it was all funded with other people's money, but he allegedly stole. Many thought Sam Bankman Freed was changing the game as he graced the pages of Forbes

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Download the Amazon Music app today. music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Yeah, right. Christianity people often acknowledge that it's sort of absorbed these days or rituals in from the Roman religion and tradition, some of the pagan traditions. But it also, you're right, it strikes me that first up many of the disciples, I think St. Paul among them had studied the Stoics, and it does seem like they incorporated a lot of the virtue ethics and the philosophy. For sure. And people don't realize, I mean, you talk about this a lot in the book, but the clash between Rome and Christianity is starting right in Nero's reign. I mean, Jesus and Senator born hypothetically, or some people think in the same year. about four AD or six or six or, it is very early years of the millennium, I would have said,

if he was born in the 30s 18, if it's something. But the point being that the Nero's reign is the early and founding days of Christianity as we know it. And the some would argue as many scholars do, I guess I'd be curious to take, that part of Nero's reputation, his bad reputation, is the result of the sort of Christian bias against him. It's absolutely right. He's believed that he was a great persecutor, and he did the bit of pesky, but he did not burn those human canals in his crowns, in his cairns. I tried to dispel that, so it was all made up in the fifth century. So yes, I think that's right. But although only

enough, I mean, Nero didn't have quite a long afterlife. Neural is much more popular than his senatorial opposition thought. He was really well-liked, and the anecdote about the fire has been laid for a long time on his two-break on a regular basis, and all the pretenders that emerged. Right now up to the time of St. Augustine, where St. Augustine writes that Nero is asleep and biting his time before he returns. What did they miss about Nero or what did they love about him? If we're in spectacle. Spectacle. He understood the art of anti-public entertainment. He was of a thought Hollywood. He was absolutely adopted.

And of course, he would have insisted on being at the of charts with one of his albums. So Mr. Schell, he was a Schell the boy night with his time. He was not a very, he was not a nice guy and his circumstances of absolute power is corrupt him. That is certainly true. Or even though he was rather a bad egg as I might say before he became an emperor. We mustn't forget, by the way, while we are on basso, we mustn't forget Agrippino, because while she was a terrible mother, she was a formidable good or a proper-present politician. She understood that you don't just announce things, absolutely, it's not really absolute. You don't have to talk to people.

You do have to bring people along with you. A lesson that certain former president of the audience is learning the hard way. I get the impression. Well, I want to pull back to the Stoics again, because there's another interesting Stoic in Nero's life, although Nero wouldn't have understood him to be in his life. But I've always found it fascinating that Epic Titus and Seneca were basically working in the same palace, but at very different ends of I do like it, I think he's a wonderful character. And he's the very human face of socialism. I think that

there's some of some of the so-so, Stoics exorother gloomy or still sort of fingers. And the NPT's are sort of sets the record straight, I think. I go for it, yes. Yes, for people who don't know, Epic Titus is actually owned by Nero Secretary, ultimately the man who puts N of out of his misery at the end. Yeah, the owner of that period. That's right. Yes, that's perfectly true. That's perfectly true. One thing that puzzled me, I mean, I see my own reading, my sources and so forth, that the sources and came for conclusion around the end of the third century.

But now I find that we have the sources of ready-vivors, the third century. But now I find that we have sozism ready-vivors, the modern as a modern queen, and it could work, I didn't know, are the work that you are doing. And I'm most interested in it, and how do you think you're going to succeed in displacing Christianity? think you're going to succeed in displacing Christianity? Well, I don't know if my goal is to set aside a major religious tradition, but I do think, you know, there's a quote I'm forgetting who it was from. It might have been from from Proust. He said something like, you know, there was a moment between Cicero and Marcus Arelius where man stood alone in the universe. He said, before Christ had come, and the gods had ceased to be man stood alone in the universe.

Now, his timings not actually correct, but the general point that you actually made earlier, which is Stoicism was a kind of civic religion that although it acknowledged a sort of the logos and a higher power, it was much more practical than saying metaphysical. And I think as you look at the decline of most religious traditions today and even the decline in trust in certain institutions and it strikes me that there is room for, or not just room, it strikes me that a lot of people are asking the question, okay, how does one live? And I think still- A virtue of life. Yes. How do you want to do a virtue of life? A life of virtue. There's a good question, but there's not a very near answer. I mean, it's so it's worth

like storing again. And what I think is so interesting then is like you have Epic Titus, you have Seneca and you have Marcus Realis, those are three very different lives, right? Different ends of the spectrum, privileges as well as disadvantages and adversity. And they're all trying to answer the same question. How does one live a good life when so know, when so much of what we experience is outside of our control? I was trying to think of a modern philosophy of the lighthouse that's helped assist the rebirth

of the stars. And I'm not sure, I've got a quote here from from Cicero before, from the Santa Code, before I became out, I tried to live well. Now that I am old, I actually try to die well. But dying well means dying gladly. See to it that you never do anything unwillingly. That which is bound to be an necessity if you resist it,

is not an necessity if you wish it. Now that's a bit of a short-bow search. I think that's right. There is definitely even in Camus, the idea. You choose your fate. You choose your fate. Yeah, I took the idea from Camus where he says, even in a plague, there is an opportunity to behave with decency.

Oh, yeah, very good. Very good, yes, I like to move. And so yeah, I don't know, I mean, I'm just fascinated with the ideas and what I've loved about your books is they document people trying to explicitly following sources. But it documents people trying to do their duty, do their job, fulfill their potential in a complicated and complex world. And to go back to Epic Titus, though, what would the life of a slave in Nero's court have been like?

It depends. It could have been quite good. If you were lucky enough, if you were unlucky, you would be, you would find yourself working on the Latin fundio, the large farms, or you would find yourself in the mines. But if you're fortunate, if you're clever, if you're bright, if you're pretty, you could find yourself living in a aristocratic, very wealthy household. And if I have to some time and you please your master and mistress, that could be some unpleasant night's, I'm afraid, but there we go. You will find that the names slaves were manumitted, were freed. They continued to work for their original masters, but they hope for freedom, and their children

could become Roman citizens. So there was an acknowledged escape route for slaves under the Roman conditions, not so much under Greek conditions. Well, I just found some of Epic Titus' descriptions of Nero's Rome to be so interesting. You know, he has this one scene where he's talking about watching this man sort of debase himself to impress Nero's cobbler to try to win Nero's favor. And he says something like, he says, for the sake of mighty and dignified offices and honors, you kiss the hands of another man slaves and are thus the slaves of men who are not free themselves. Very good, very good.

Sanico is very good on some slavery here. He's very against it and he says then equal in effect. And that we're all slaves to something. We're all slaves to something. We will be judged on an equal basis when we come to judgment. So, I mean, he's very good on quite a number of things. He's very good on the read on, the editorial shows and so forth. The wonderful description of him can be coming by chance to see the editorial show. The lunch break happens, and he thinks, oh, maybe we'll get a bit of light

and statement now, it's song in the dance. Of course, no. The opportunity was seized by the author, it's basically huge, of course, no. The opportunity was seized by the authorities, basically huge and number of criminals. And he just reports that experience with disgust. What, would you, I can imagine Epictetus arguing that actually Nero was the least free of all men.

Yes, that's a very interesting point. I mean, Nero could have been free. If he'd been able to choose professional music, he would have become free. But because he wasn't allowed to choose the circumstances of his life, however wonderful that I seem to be if you're a part, man.

So, in Maniac, wonderful, though, I seem to be if you're a part man, so a maniac. You could, I'm not lost my thread. Well, you're, you're saying, if you think about it, it's like not only did Nero have this other thing that he wanted, that he needed. And so the, the, the, the Stoics would say, just wanting this thing is inherently means you're not free. Exactly, exactly, exactly right. But also, it seems like Nero is a slave to his lusts, to his ego, to also he's a slave to his paranoia.

His worry that someone is going to hurt him. That's exactly right. All of that is great. Yes. He's not having any fun, I guess. We think maybe the king is having fun and in reality, no one's maybe having a worse time. Yes, I think that's great.

But I hesitate, he's very difficult to make a judgment about nearest personalities. Quite obviously, very complicated and more complicated than the sources allow. And so it has to make delicate assumptions. And I think it is reasonably clear that Nero is not happy about it. I mean, leave aside the correctness or otherwise, the stoic ideology. He was not happy. He misbehaved when he misbehaved.

I know he was cruel, but he was cruel, just logically. He then became exaggeratedly sorry for what he had done. So there's the strange personality, personality defects within the in Polaro. You think Sena Kishit had left Nero's service or did he not have any options? He could have asked. He was with the court when Agrippina was killed. He knew nothing about it, he was not taken into near its confidence, but on that night he was working up to the other with Burris and asked for advice and they were cautious. They didn't say they approved, but they didn't say they disapproved. And they didn't leave afterwards? And they didn't leave afterwards, they stayed.

So I don't think we can make a saint out of that particular... because his sins were quite large, it seems to me. Am I being scandalous in my treatment of your? No, I think he is a fascinating and tragic and Shakespearean figure. Very good. How could it be Mark? Ironically, Seneca's plays sort of detail, this tragic, you know, contradictory element, probably better than his philosophical writings. I like the, the, the Octavia, which I'm sure is written by Seneca, there's no noters and scholars nowadays, the poses, written after Neurot's death. The argument they've been forged is that Neurot had been killed and there was a known fact.

But the problem with that argument is that by the time Neurot, by the time the plague had died, it would have been the details of David Smith would have been clear and why wasn't, why wasn't it, why weren't they written into the text of the play. Anyway, I think it's, I think it's, well, he's a very able man. He's what we call a public intellectual. I suspect that someone has vain and with the artistic pretensions of Nero, it must have driven him nuts to have someone who's brilliant at law, a playwright, and a philosopher all at the

same time. Because it's driving a bit of a pressure that intellect wants to. So maybe he was done very well in Paris. He was a, he was a renaissance man. Also, yes, yes, no, it was very good. Yes, he wasn't renaissance man. Yeah, I think James Rom in his biography of Senica, he said, it would be as if Ralph Waldo Emerson had also written Faust and had served in Lincoln's cabinet. Excellent, very good. I like that. I know that. So let's look at, as we wrap up, I'm so grateful for your time. Let's look at the two, the death of Seneca and Nero, because they both go out in sort of dramatic, tragic,

it's some might say pathetic fashions, but walk me through the end of Nero, and then let's talk about the end of Seneca. Well, the end of Nero is catastrophy, because Neuropanics and the thought that things were much worse than they actually were. And if he had held his nerve, he would not have lost his life and his throne. The second way I want to make is it's interesting that he was completely abandoned by all his servants and courtiers and so forth in the last days of his life. With one exception, Sporus, the guy that he

had castrated and turned into a kind of trans version of his wife, Papaya, who's memory he still couldn't really get over. And the fact that Soros went with him on that nighttime trek to the filler of, who is it, about for Ditefus, I can't remember, the filler in the other side, where eventually Nero killed himself when he heard the thunder of the hoose of the of the Britorians coming up the lane. But for us, as I've been having been being treated abominably by any standards, and cruelerly and selfishly, remained loyal to Nero. That's telling, it makes me sing a little bit of the enormous hands that lay in the clouds on the tomb.

Yeah, but he misbehaved. I mean, he couldn't bring himself, to kill himself. Yeah, the end of Nero, I heard an expression once to build that the life of a gangster is pretty until the last 15 minutes. And that's kind of the end of Nero. It, it, it, it, it, it goes down quickly and escalates quite badly. Yes, that's a guy. Everyone leaves him. And there's a quote I thought maybe you could explain.

One of the soldiers that had turned on him said, you know, Nero sort of asked him why are you doing this? He said, it was the only way I could help you. What does that mean? It means I think that Nero, the guy knew that Neuro didn't have an enemy kill himself and needed to be killed because he was a terrible death if he didn't do it. And he couldn't do it, so he needed to be helped. And so the man helped push the dagger into the throat and to narrow throat.

So it was an act of kindness. Right. He can't, he sort of flinches at the last moment and he can't deliver the blow himself. One of the soldiers, I think it's a Praetorian guard says, is it as awful as that to die? Yeah, it's right. And then he misjudges the cavalry man, and he's of his force, and comes towards Neoron. Neoron thinks that he's coming to help him. In fact, his daughter is coming to arrest him. Neoron says has too late.

And then, and then, and then, and then when, when Epic Titus's owner sticks the knife in, what are, what are Neuros basically second to last words? I think he says like something like this is loyalty. Oh, yes, he does, yes, yes, yes. Difficult to know to take that, because I think that he didn't really know what was going on around him, right at the last, and he didn't misinterpret the loyalty of the cavalryman that gave the thunder out the road. But you see, it was a very depressing and rather a very depressing death and not at all a stoke death. No, no, it's not. You're meant to live in harmony

with the date show. You're meant to die gladly. Well, I want to get into Santa C because that's but I have one more quote for you. I heard, I've read, that as the soldier who, as they looked at Nero's grave to throw his body in it, they said, even this is not up to code. Yes, that's right. A commentary, I guess, on the chaotic nature of his regime and the dysfunction of it.

Is more of the dysfunction of the court rather than the government? Because in fact, theero's reign was quite successful and the point of view of governing an empire. After a preliminary difficulties that he sorted out Britannia quite quickly. He sorted out relations with Barthia very effectively with the planning of theirit 80's as King of Armenia. It was quite the... No, I don't suppose that Neuro did much with this himself. He knew I had to appoint the people that were going to be competent, those agreed speedmen and so forth. They were going to run there and perform adequately. And they did. I mean, I think you can't really, I think it's wrong to

criticize the reign of their own while noting that he only had some certain degree of responsibility for it. Sure. Yeah, I, when I was reading, when I was reading the book, which I loved, I was reading the book which I loved. I was thinking of William Blake's line that the most potent poison ever known rest in Caesar's Laurel Crown. That's very good. Yes, there's a wonderful line is that,

is a great man, Blake. You think you wanna be king, but you probably don't. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, how do Nero and Seneca have their falling out? And let's wrap up as we get to the end of Seneca's life. Well, first, Nero wanted to be his own master. Even though he wasn't going to run again, I bet directly himself. He wanted to be his own master.

And he was just simply getting tired of the old men. even though he wasn't going to run again, but directly himself, he wanted to be in John Marcer, and he was just simply getting tired of the old men, telling you what to do. But then we come to the Pysoconspiracy, and it seems to me that, although it's not at all clear because of the cleverness of the new ring of Seneca, you seem pretty clear to me that he was part of that conspiracy, very foolish really because it was very badly managed conspiracy, far too many people involved, article

of security and so forth. In any event, once it failed, then the executions and the suicides proceeded. And one of the first to go was Seneca. He'd placed himself in the other villa quite near town. He conveniently placed himself in that villa so that he was on the hands to anything be needed and the plot to affect. and the plot to affect.

So one of the, it's curious, the Tribune that came to give them all of the specific to kill himself was actually a member of the conspiracy and he hadn't actually, he hadn't been discovered. So he was in a very difficult spot. He wasn't quite sure what to do. So he was in a very difficult spot. He wasn't quite sure what to do. So he went and saw to his Victorian pre-faith and said, should I proceed and carry on with this and continue the so-near-owned, get the Senacartus kill himself. And the man said yes,

was a man said yes, go ahead, don't change your mind. So despite his commitment to the conspiracy, he initiated the death of a leading conspirator. And I guess it says something about Seneca's stuicism that he never remarks upon this. No, he doesn't say exactly. I mean, he might not have known, because there's a large controversy, so it's conceivable, but if he did, he could, he was a professional politician, and so he should have known, and yes, he was professional, I believe it be. Well, once he knew that he had to kill himself, he then moved into a different year.

He forgot about, he put on one side, local, political concerns, the day-to-day business, the grubby business of politics, and he began to construct the drama of his death, which he was knew would be spoken of around the end part and indeed around the ages. Yes, the Tacitus. Tacitus says that, you know, even that that Seneca sort of had always sensed this would happen. He says, even at the height of his wealth and power, he had been thinking of his life's clothes. Yes, yes, I think that's right. So he was quite strict with himself. He knew exactly what he wanted to do.

He hurt like buggery, he was clattering the other arms and legs. He didn't seem to have a much more blood. And so he had to pat down his knees as well. So it was a very unpleasant, but he was it to live it in that in the high Roman fashion. And he succeeded, although, as I was saying earlier, socrates did it better because the socrates did it more naturally you feel that something rehearsed about Sena

Kus' expiry. You're totally right, there's an element of, are you guys getting this? Is the camera on? Yes, you are. Exactly. Who's with it, but? It still would have been, as you said, immensely painful and required incredible courage. And, Braden, there's the right thing to do.

I mean, there's establishes reputation to some extent. And the ground is life as a serious stoke. So it's the right thing to do. Whether one would have done it, I don't think I'd've had the presence of mind. Yeah, I go back and forth. It's sometimes I find it beautiful and brave and then there's another part of me that thinks too little,

too late. Yeah, he's just putting on an act and there's this shit. Do you? That's a good one. I mean, finally, finally, I think you've got to come down on his side. He was an interesting man. He's on the side of life. He was a, ever.

He was amusing. He was extremely bright. He had the right ideas about government. He read his article on this. I say on mercy. He had a very good perspective of how an autocratic regime should actually be covered. So there's a huge amount to be said on his favorite.

Nonetheless, there's something about the personality which one feels is just a little artificial. Do you feel like he and Cicero shared that? That's always how I've read Cicero. I think Cicero is more like a ball. You can make a ball up, make a mistake, mishandle something, and still carry on. If you don't feel that Tendica makes a lands for business.

That's interesting. Yes. I wanted to read you some of Tendica's last words, as I thought it was beautiful. He said to his weeping friends, he said, where are your maxims of philosophy after so many years of study against evils to come? He said, who knew not Nuroscule cruelty after a mother

and a brother's murder, nothing remains but to add to the destruction of a guardian and a tutor? That's very good. That's good. But it is strange. It's a science-based form and it's in that quotation, isn't it? There's a side feeling that he's saying, look, I long mentioned the name Socrates, but that's what I'm talking about, and that's who I'm following. And so seeing me as a later-day Socrates. And also, maybe that's unfair, would. No, no, I think it's very fair. I mean, also, it's like, where was your condemnation of very fair. I mean, also, it's like, where was your condemnation of that cruelty at any point in the thousands of pages of writing that you have done?

Yes. But you know, I said to that, my job wasn't to expose Nero. How other people could do that to help help they wanted to. My job was just civilized Niro and to do my best to turn it into a good ruler. And he succeeded for five years, but then everything went downhill with the murder of the matchy side of Agapila. Well, at the core of it, what you're describing is sort of a savior, martyr complex, which is ultimately, you know, what he's acting out there at the end. Yes. Yes. So, so last question for you, what I liked about your book is it's sort

of, it's a mixed take on Nero. You're not saying he was the worst ruler that ever lived, but you're also not engaging with what I have seen lately in some writings and some museum pieces, this sort of attempt to rehabilitate or vindicate Nero as some sort of fundamentally unfairly maligned figure. No, he's not that unpretty maligned. I mean, he wasn't a sense that people like the members of the ruling class ended to believe what about stories

and helpful stories about Nero, so they said that he saw it in the fire and he had perfectly obviously didn't sell it very far around. So that sense, yes, Nero was badly reported on by some of his contemporaries. And that's certainly true. But in Megan's some respect, although I think most of his idea is not to make him an animal's death spot when he wasn't. It was perfectly clear he wasn't. He was a cruel and more innocent.

And he must be the real bored too. I love this description of people falling asleep in his concerts. Some crawling away at the back over the back of all the theatre in order to escape. But facing of course, he got to the serious trouble by dropping off during one of his swaray. So all that is the case. But I think what's really interesting is that he's most old and fascinating personality. He has a common popular taste for popular culture. He really liked it.

He loved it. He wanted to be an artist himself. He died for his art. Yes, not particularly artistically, but he did die as a pervert. Yes, he called us Artifacts, very old. So the relationship with his mother was the people around him as he grew up in his teens. His boy, his friends,

his fellow students and so forth. And then the tutors, the people like Sainika, that's a very heavy complicated mix and in which the most important and in which the most important Moe Moeva and Shaker was his mother. And she herself was brilliant in certain respects, but as we said earlier, was not, it didn't have a name to an angle of sun. So all of that makes him a very interesting character and a crime by his popularity, both more than popularity, which is really quite a surprise. And even Barron and Napoleon, right, favourably about, about, about Niro. So, so I can't, I've got, I've got a sort of marginal

soft spot, but it pretty well soon gets hard. I mean, I think more home, more, more, more, more firmly about him. So, yeah. I found it an absolutely riveting book. I loved your book on Sister Row. I thought your book on Augustus was fascinating as well, and thank you so much for taking the time.

Well, thank you for asking now. Really appreciate it. I'm so sorry. We had all these complications. The vehicles of modern technology, sometimes passed me by. Well, I think the Stokes would like how, on the one hand, miraculous technology that allows us

to connect across oceans instantaneously without having to leave our house and then still manage to become incredibly frustrated and annoyed by the future that we're lucky enough to live it. Thank you so much. You're free to go. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes,

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