The Daily Stoic - Charlie Mackesy on the Creative Process and Finding Enough

Episode Date: May 29, 2021

On today’s episode, Ryan talks to author Charlie Mackesy about his #1 New York Times bestselling book The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse, the process of writing and creating the book, how beautiful and rare it is to find contentment, and more.Charlie Mackesy is the author of The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse. The book has sold over 1.4 million copies and spent 55 weeks on the Sunday Times Bestsellers List top ten. He co-runs Mama Buci, which is a honey social enterprise in Zambia.GiveWell is the best site for figuring out how and where to donate your money to have the greatest impact. If you’ve never donated to GiveWell’s recommended charities before, you can have your donation matched up to $1,000 before the end of June or as long as matching funds last. Just go to GiveWell.org/STOIC and pick podcast and The Daily Stoic at checkout. Ten Thousand makes the highest quality, best-fitting, and most comfortable training shorts I have ever worn. They are a direct-to-consumer company, no middleman so you get premium fabrics, trims, and techniques that other brands simply cannot afford. Ten Thousand is offering our listeners 15% off your purchase. go to Tenthousand.cc and enter code STOIC to receive 15% off your purchase.KiwiCo believes in the power of kids and that small lessons today can mean big, world-changing ideas tomorrow. KiwiCo is a subscription service that delivers everything your kids will need to make, create and play. Get 30% off your first month plus FREE shipping on ANY crate line with code STOIC at kiwico.com. Ladder makes the process of getting life insurance quick and easy. To apply, you only need a phone or laptop and a few minutes of time. Ladder’s algorithms work quickly and you’ll find out almost immediately if you’re approved. Go to ladderlife.com/stoic to see if you’re instantly approved today.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daily_stoicFollow Charlie Mackesy:Homepage: https://www.charliemackesy.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/charliemackesy/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/charliemackesy Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Charliemackesyart/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke podcast early and add free on Amazon music download the app today Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoke each weekday We bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics Something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage justice up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time.

Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wendery's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward.

Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another weekend episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. You know, sometimes you read a book and it just hits you in a place that you didn't maybe even know was a place. You know, you read something that's just magical and whimsical, beautiful and moving, whatever it is. It does what art is supposed to do, which is it touches something in what makes us deeply

human. And today's episode is about such a book. It's a bit of a way. It's more than a book and it's about such an author. I'm talking to Charlie Makasey. He's the author of the boy, the mole, the fox, and the horse, which if you haven't read, it doesn't matter how old you are, it doesn't matter if you have kids, it doesn't matter how old your kids are, it's a beautiful book. It's like the little prince, it's like a great Pixar movie, it's simple and easy and straightforward and at the same time deep on a profound level, it's moving, the drawings are great, it's an awesome book. Elizabeth Gilbert-Glurerbs it she says,

the world that I am required to inhabit is this one. But the world that I long to inhabit is the one that Charlie McAsy has created. I would argue that he actually is capturing what the world should be. And what the world is when we're pure and young. And we've yet to be made cynical, yet to be taught the wrong

lessons about life. And this beautiful story about a boy and these sort of friends that he meets along the way, it's what we should be teaching young people and it's what as adults, we can't forget. This is a book that has on Amazon 74,000 reviews, right? Number one, New York Times of Cellar, Wall Street Journal of S.S.A. Today best seller. It's amazing. It'll probably get turned into a movie. It's like where the wild things are good, the little prince good, you know, Pixar's up good. It's just, it's fantastic. And this conversation was awesome. I enjoyed it so much. Charlie was the sweetest guy. I can't wait for you to check this out. Not only should you check out the book,

you should also check out his website. If you go to charliemacacy.com, he has a store where you can buy prints from the book, which are incredible. I want this one for my son's room. He has this great page in the book slash print that says, what do you want to be when you grow up? And then he says, kind. Ah, I love it. It's a sweet, hilarious, amazing book. What is the bravest thing you've ever said? Ask the boy. This is one of my other favorite

lines, help, said the horse. It's, I don't want to ruin the book, but it's just great. You're going to like this conversation. Go to CharlieMacCasey.com. Also follow him on Instagram where he has like over a million followers because he posts his awesome drawings, of course, that's at Charlie MacCasey. So here's my interview with the author of the boy, the mo, the fox and the horse. And if you're looking for another sort of fable-driven children's book or all ages children's book, I hope you also check out the boy who would be King. That's my illustrated fable about the young life of Mark's Reyes, which I took some inspiration from Charlie on. You can check that out at dailystalk.com slash king. My son wanted me to start this conversation. He's turning five this year, but he wanted me to start by asking you about your doxins

because we read the page in the book where your dog walks across the page. And so we wanted to know what kind of dog you had. So I looked it up and we also have a doxin. So this is his favorite page in the book. Oh, sweet. Oh, yeah, he's a minute-to-long-haired docks. We have a miniature short hair. And I love that page too because it's such a great illustration of you almost couldn't have planned it if you wanted to. Oh, no, exactly. I mean, that's right. Yeah, he, he, he, um, I could have tried a hundred times to get him to do that. And he wouldn't have managed it.

Went for, and for people who don't know the page that we're talking about, you say, the greatest illusion said the mole is that life should be perfect. And then you've got little dog footprints on the bottom of the page because your dog walked across the page. We did, trying to make a point, clearly. Yes, that was one great piece of advice I got early on as a writer. My mentor, the writer, proper Green said,

you know, it's all material, it's all fuel. It's this weird thing where you want things to be exactly as you want them to be, but actually it's the things that go wrong that you can, it makes your point better in this case. And I feel like there's a metaphor in that. Yeah, I think that's a very right. I think you have to be open to it because you can just see it as a mistake or annoying, but I think if you can see the other side of it,

it's up from something better sometimes. I think that's right. You have to, the Stoics talk about the art of acquiescence, sort of going along with things, and I think that's part of it. Yeah, I totally agree. So tell me about the origins of this book, because it's such a beautiful book and it's been this monster hit.

And it's weird that I've never read a children's book like it. I mean, the only analog I could think of would be the little prince, which is close, but even there, it's sort of more of a direct, it's more a half novella, half children's book. How did you come up with this concept for a kid's book, which is, it's loosely a story, but it's also kind of a series of quotes and bits of wisdom tied loosely together. Yeah, I mean, firstly, it's not a kids book. It was actually written with the intention for as much as adults as it is children.

Sure. So that's the first thing. The second thing is I suppose the narrative is the conversation. So I'm not looking for, I wasn't really looking for then this happened, then this happened because I think narrative can be just conversation and a journey of understanding rather than events.

So really was just getting, finding the right series of drawings from all the thousands of drawings that were in my studio and trying to find a sort of a beginning and end to them in terms of the boys journey with the mole and then they meet the fox and then they meet the horse. So in a way, you know, they just journey together and understanding each other and that's really the narrative. There are events but they're not that consequential, they just happen because that's how life is. But really, I think the main events in life are not events, their discoveries about yourself or their discoveries

about each other or their journey into vulnerability or connection through honesty or those things, I think, a seismic. And they're often overlooked. I think it's very easy to sort of, you know, it's interesting because I remember being at school and learning history and we were given dates of battles as being significant and I don't think they are. I think that there would have been far more interesting in history lesson to have found events where people just discovered things about each other or, you know, I know it's a sort of strange thing to say, but for me, anywhere at least life, life's big events went largely unnoticed by it. They were more internal.

I think that's totally right. Yeah. So that's really what I was doing was, you know, I tried to keep it as simple as possible. So a four-year-old could read it or a ninety-four-year-old could read it and still get different things out of it, but still get something out of it without, you know, overdoing it or overstating it or overcomplicating it and trying to make what I felt was sort of fairly, I suppose, profound things as simple as possible.

And you know, when I was doing it, a lot of people were telling me, oh, you must create more narrative. You have to write more. It needs, you can't just do such a sparse book. But I like the idea that people can put their own selves in it. They can project themselves into the spaces. They can give it time. Like I left blank pages for a reason, and I

just because we couldn't think of anything else to say. It's meant to be a restful thing as well. I think we'd like to hurry through everything these days, and someone said to me that when they got the book, they read it in 10 minutes, and then the next time they read it, it took them a week. I love that. And they obviously will see things that I never will. And I think, I like that. They tell me things, I go, oh, I had no idea.

That's what it was saying. And so I find that thrilling. So you can sort of catalyze people's conversations and catalyze their journey you know, journey into themselves and each other. And yeah, it's along, I don't know what I'm saying really, but I'm just sort of, yeah, kids and adults, it's for real. Well, no, you gave me a lot to respond to because I would say, I didn't mean to imply

that it was just a kid's book. I feel like what's so amazing about it is it is the same thing that's amazing about a Pixar movie, which is that it operate or a Sobs Fables, which is that they operate on two levels, the sort of silly superficial level and the profound sort of, I don't wanna say adult level, but the profound moral level

and depending on where you are in life, but then also where you are in that specific moment. Yes. Either get it or you don't get it. Right. Depending on where you are at that time. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, like in a way, you know, and this is in the little prince, he says, oh, sometimes it's only with the heart that you can see. There, I think there's some things that children probably, some of the adult themes that children probably get from your book better than the adults and vice versa because it depends on how open your heart is, where you are, what your day was like, whether you're really gonna get, you know,

one of these pretty straightforward quotes in the book, it could go right over your head. get one of these pretty straightforward quotes in the book, it could go right over your head. And I think it could well do, or some people just don't find it interesting or helpful. There's always, I think a lot depends on, I mean, a lot of the emails I get, and I get many these days, are from people who are finding life difficult.

Whatever reason, and it's sort of, it's met them where they're at in some way. And I love that. And oddly, I think if someone has said, right, Charlie, you've got to write a book or make a book that's going to help people in difficulty, I don't think I would have done a book like that. It's really odd. I just felt it was more instinctual and I just tried to be as honest and straightforward and simple as I could with four characters that I drew and I didn't engineer to sell books. I

didn't try to make it a hit. I didn't envisage it ever being a hit. It was just something that I made from the depths of me to someone out there who might relate to the ideas and you know I'm still shocked when he said it's a hit in America. I have no idea that. I mean obviously people say and my agent says it's doing well but deep within me I can't really conceive of that. It's still a shock to me that it's that well, but deep within me, I can't really conceive of that. It's still a shock to me that it's that people read it in America, you know, and I love that. I'm really profoundly flattered and moved, but, you know, I suppose it was just a very quietly made, and a corner of the world without any deep sense that it was going to, you know, I hoped that, you know,

300 people might like it or when the agent told me that the publisher was going to publish 10,000 of them, I thought that was insane. I just thought you're completely mad. We're never going to, you know, you're going to have a load of books in storage somewhere waiting, you know, You're gonna have a load of books in storage somewhere, waiting, you know, I had no idea. And I guess I'm kind of moved and thrilled that it has met some people, some of the time, somewhere in a helpful way. And that to me is worth everything.

And I'm glad, I'll always be glad I did it on that basis alone, you know. Yeah, there's an earnestness to the book, which I think is clearly rooted in the sort of process you were just talking about. I also suspect that what it really did is it served, it served something, and I experienced this, I did a kid's book called the,

not really a kid's book, it's a fable, but it's called the boy who would be king about the sort of the early life of Marcus Relius. And what I've found is that, and I found this as my own experiences as a parent of young kids, is that lots of kids books are very entertaining. Or they're very sort of moralizing almost propaganda,

ask, you know, like anti-racist baby or something. But, but they're missing the one thing, which is why we read to our kids, which is we want to prepare them for being good people in a complicated world. Yes. As in things you say about preaching, about preaching because I don't like being preached at and I can smell it a mile off when someone's telling me how to be moral or how to. Yes. And I suppose it was, I think we discover most things when we share things rather than at all things, or we're in a shared vulnerability,

we learn through pain and through intimacy and understanding each other and daring to be vulnerable and all those things. And, you know, it's sort of, again, you know, I'm not even sure what I did. I'm in this interview with you now, and it's very nice. I'm sitting in a chair and staring at a screen and still don't really understand what happened or how it happened or how things managed to convene in such a way as you know that we sort of made the book and it did what it did and I'm still mystified by it to be honest you know like really really mystified. It came from the deepest part of me and I didn't even really understand what I was doing. I had to trust my deepest instinct and sense of what's right, rather than obey any objective sense.

Because the moment I started to analyze it, it's a bit like you sink in the water because you look to become too analytical. And it's hard to explain. But do you believe in the muses? Like do you feel like our visits itself upon you or is it something you inert, like as you think about where a book like this or any of your creative work comes from,

do you have some sense of that? I do, I mean, I think it comes from like a cocktail of places and it's very hard to, and probably not necessary to try to put your finger on the root of something or the sauce or something, but I think we are complex characters made of genes and history and events and time and friendships and experiences and suffering and love and kindness and hope and all, we're like this cake that's been made of so many different things. And I think at some point, things can combust out of you.

And I know for like two years, it was just combusting. And all I was doing, I couldn't keep up with it, was just scribbling notes and making drawings and had thousands. I mean, I must have, I mean, this is no exaggeration, but I must have 25,000 drawings made in a very short space of time, just every day from morning till night, scribbling what I'm thinking about these characters, what they suffered, what they're hopeful, what do I really fear, what do I really want, what's, you know, all the questions that we all have and I don't know where that came from. I mean, you could, you could say it's just the human spirit you could think

it's some a spiritual journey or, you know, there are various, you know, or it's just a time of life where you are able to see clearly what you, or more clearly what you feel about existence. clearly what you, or more clearly what you feel about existence. And, you know, fortunately for me, you know, I'm not a great techie person, but I did share the drawings on Instagram and I found that immensely rewarding and helpful because they journeyed with me on it and I didn't have that many followers at the time and I posted during and really studied their responses and engage with them about what they felt and so I think it was a collective news. I would say that it was a wide source of obviously pinpointing me doing the drawings and making and sort of catalyzing things but you know it's so many people help with the journey and I'm fascinated by, you know,

the details I took because of a response or lack of response to a certain way of, to a certain drawing. And I said, no, no, I think that's it. And so in a way, you know, whenever I see the book and I see my name on it, that's the name of my name, I think, well, it's not strictly true, is it? Because, you know, your close friends and lots of people, I'd probably never meet helped to forge this book. And so, you know, I don't feel like I was this lone person in a garage somewhere, chiseling away and then leapt out of the door saying here it is. I think you were. You know, I sort of feel like we all did it and it's ongoing because the drawings are still coming out and we're still discussing them. So I'm forever grateful to many people for it. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors here, and then we'll get right back to the

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she talks about that idea of the big magic. I think that's what she calls it. And there is something, like I had this idea for the boy who would be king. I'd thought about it for a long time. It sort of vaguely knew what I would do. But I had no sense when or how. And it was sometime in the beginning of the pandemic

where it just became very clear to me that it was the time. No one said it was the time. I didn't consciously decide it was the time. But somehow, like a circada, you know, sort of emerging from 17 years underground, it just happens. And nobody knows why. And I think there is something magical about all books, but your book, it sounds like you're sort of marveling at the magic where you're like, I don't quite know where this came from. I'm happy to put my name on it, but you know that it was something bigger than you. You do. Yeah, it's interesting about the boy who would be king. I'm fascinated

by other people's experiences of it, you know, or the process or how it happens. And I love the fact that you had no real objective. You know, just it is, the time was right because it, because it was. I know for me during that year, 2019, I'm making actually putting the book together, that for quite a while, because life was very difficult for me that year for various reasons. I kept thinking, oh, do I have the energy to do this? Can we just not delay it for you? And that's the deeper part in me was feeling, no, no, no, no, no, you have to do it now.

Like you have to do it this year. It has to be this year. And so it came out in October that year before the pandemic hit. And, and, you know, the time, I suppose, for some people who it helped was was right, you know, totally. But I you know of course I didn't think it was going to do what I did and I'm still amazed and you know I didn't think it would go to America. So really it's a. I observe it Riley from on the edge of things looking on the thing. It has a life of its own. And of course, you know, as with you, you make a book and you won't meet the majority

people who read it and read it. You'll never meet ever. And it's a strange idea, I suppose, to never communicate with people. It's the only communication you'll actually ever have with them. And I, pardon me, feel sad because I like talking to people. And I would like to meet every single person who's read it. But in the same breath, it's lovely that even when you're underground, it will carry on speaking. And I think that's a

great thing. Well, and in the case of your book, it's, it's such an intimate relationship you're having with the reader, right? It's not like you wrote a technical manual or an analysis of tax policy. It's touching people in a soft place. Yes, yes, and I think, you know, for me, it took a while for the onion rings to come off, to be able to find a way of doing that, I think. And if it has done that, then I'm surprised and amazed and grateful.

So, one of my favorite themes in the book is you talk about kindness over and over again. But you talk about it in two senses of the word, which I think we overlook. You know, obviously there's kindness to others. Sennaka talks about how every person we meet is an opportunity for kindness. But then he also talks about kindness to oneself. He says, how do I know I'm making progress? It's because I've become a better friend to myself. It strikes me that the characters in your book are on that exact journey, kindness to others, but also to stop whipping themselves or feeling bad about themselves. Yeah, I mean, there's the end of critic, isn't there? Who is ruthless? And you know, there are plenty of critics out there don Don't be up to you or you and I,

but just best not be one of them, you know? And I think that's right. I think I'm being kind to yourself and forgiving yourself and being generous to all those things. I think they're very, very difficult. At least some people, I know I have found that to be so. And I think that journey into self-care and self-love is then obviously a big stepping stone into caring for others and loving others.

And making that connection took me a long time. The cherishing of self-help, to cherish another. And yeah, you're right. I mean, the kindness is a, you know, the word kind of fascinating. And it's often seen as a sort of early, you know, obvious, basically, but it's huge and deep and has all kinds of manifestations. Yeah. To go to your point about history earlier, it is striking, right?

Like we obsess over the dates of history. We also sort of, that sort of one school of thought, the sort of literal history. Then there's kind of the propaganda history, you know, the patriotic take. And then today we also have this like other school of history which is like, how can we show that everyone was a horrible hypocrite, that they were awful,

that, you know, they mercilessly did X, Y, and Z. It's, it strikes me. It's such a lost opportunity. I've talked to so many great authors over the years who have like, sort of fallen in love with this character, that character from history. Um, like good people. It, I think that what there is in your book and, and maybe why it's resonated with people who are trying to sort of raise the next generation is like, you want to inculcate these lessons, like you want to teach them and inspire them about kindness and being helpful and believing in yourself. And if we're not going to learn that from history, where are we going to get that? Do you know what I

mean? It's a dude. Well, the way history is taught, we're not going to get it from know what I mean? Yes I do. Well the way history is taught we're not going to get a mystery. I mean and I you know I suppose as you get older you sort of see people who I've got friends who've made fortunes and friends who've you're not and yet oddly now I see the most successful people that I know sometimes sometimes have made very little money, but they've been hugely successful with their friendships and their relationships and how they've lived their lives that has nothing to do with what society would call success.

So you saw in some men the boys as what you think success is, the more sense to love. And it's that kind of trying to find a way of explaining that in the simplest way possible. So if you don't feel successful because you haven't earned a fortune, you don't have a great house or a decent car, then you can think to yourself, well, hang on a second, let's look at success in a different way. And I suppose, I was raised, I had an interesting upbringing because I was brought up.

You know, with the sort of, you know, in a lovely family but they were quite, you know, middle to upper class. And I was in a community, in a farming community where I would work to alongside a lot of shepherds who made hardly any money at all and were sort of lived in the wilds and just had 30 sheep and you know lived in and yet to me they were the most successful people I'd ever met because they were happy and they they had loved well and and yet had nothing and I I so I've always held this truth in me and you know and sort of viewed the world of obsession with material success as in a sort of fairly cynical way I think no I don't I don't think that's right and if you you know there's nothing wrong with making money there's nothing wrong with being successful material, but it certainly isn't the only form of success there is.

And if we can teach that, I think it's a good thing. But that ties in to the other lesson of the book, which I think is probably why so few people feel they have that success or feel that love, which is sort of comparison being the thief or joy. Oh, really, truly, it truly is. I mean, there's no doubt, there's no doubt. And it's very hard not to. It's hard as an author too, right? Because you're like, who's ranking higher than me? Who's sold more copies than me? Who gets more attention than me?

And anytime you can see how other people are doing, it's hard to be happy with what you have. Right. And rankings and listings that you want to avoid those. I mean, you're right. I mean, the moment you start, if someone has sold more books than you, it doesn't mean that it was successful as a book. It just doesn't. I always, that's why I always appreciate people like you're doing

where they're sort of like, look, I didn't expect it to be this way. It just happened because, you know, it's so easy, you know, talk about telling stories. It's so easy as you become successful to tell a very clear story in retrospect about how you intended this or you did X and that caused Y. And so that can be so intimidating for people who are just starting who don't realize that actually, you know, you fell, ask backwards into it, and you're just making up this story afterwards, so you feel like you deserve it.

And now they're like, they don't deserve it. I'm very, very aware of that tendency to rewrite history, or make it look a little bit, you know, more intended in this respect. And for me, it was definitely an accident. And it came from a subconscious grace that I just, a bit like forest scum, I just didn't stop running.

I just kept doing it in a mad sort of state without really knowing what I was doing. And I knew deep down that I was completely winging it. And I knew deep down that I was completely winging it. And I knew deep down that perhaps everybody was ultimately. And I kept thinking, well, if they did it, then why can't I? And if I can do it, then why can't anyone? It's just a question of believing it and persevering and speaking as honest as you possibly can and not giving up and being trying to be true.

And I look right now and there's absolutely no way that I have any clue about how it happened or any of the things, people ask me, I get emails from people who ask me for advice and I try to say, well, don't give up and I'm not entirely sure how it happens, but I know for a fact that I didn't think I could do it and I'm not sure if I could again, it's just one of the things you wrestle with and believe in and yeah, so yeah, I no, because I am, it's a total mystery to me. One, and that's one of my favorite parts of the book is where you talk about sort of asking for help, which, you know, you talk about endurance

and you talk about perseverance. I think sometimes people think that those two things are at odds with asking for help or admitting that you don't know what you're doing. Right. Well, as I was asking for help, I was giving up. No.

I think endurance is great and all those fine things, but I think, I mean, the help thing was quite seminal really for me because I remember, you know, when I was in a very dark place and all my instincts were to pretend I was alright and to, you know, keep the show on the road of life, if you know what I'm saying. And to, you know, it's terrifying to me to ask for help because it was going to be some kind of failure. And then I had to, and it was, you know, it was, I was terrified. But in the end, it was the best decision I ever made, but at the time, it felt weak. And yet, I think it's ultimately now in retrospect, it was a huge strength

to recognize my weakness and to speak from that place is a strength. But we're not taught that society, well here, I don't know about where you are, but certainly here, but that idea is, especially as a man, is not a strength, but I can keep truly ears. Yeah, well with what I write about, people confuse sort of uppercase stisism and lowercase stillisism where the stiff upper lip of the British model,

I think one of the most beautiful lines in Marx's realises memoirs is Meditations, where he says, he says, we're soldiers storming a wall. If you fall and you have to reach up and ask a comrade for help, he says, so what? You know, like it's an act of cowardice not to ask to be pulled back up into the brilliant. I love that. He said that then. I love him. I mean, he's absolutely right. So what is the point? So what?

You know, if you're aiming to get over the wall, and it takes us to help, then also help. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors here, and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Yeah, and I, you know, in your book, it's... The different people can do different things, right? The mole gets... Choose the fox out of the trap, because the fox can't do it.

Yeah, exactly. And then the mole, and then half an hour later, the mole is drowning. Yes. We can help each other in different ways. Well, we carry each other at different times for different reasons. Yeah, and we're sometimes one way strong, someone isn't and vice versa. You know, and I think that's the sort of rebalancing of life. I love that. My other favorite part of the book is sort of towards the end. It strikes me.

Again, this sort of masculine idea of being unable to express yourself, say what you feel. You know, the mom. Yeah, where he says, sometimes I want to say that I love you, but I can't. So I just say I'm glad we're all together. You know, the mom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't quite bring themselves to do it. So instead they start an argument or instead they tease or you know, they do everything but say what they actually feel. Yeah, because it's awkward. Yes. And also I think, you know, sometimes, you know, there are so many different ways of saying I love you or expressing it. And and I know, I know, you know, the mole is very English actually, I think,

of all the characters, the moles probably the most English. With all the cake and everything. Yeah, a cake obsessed, but also, you know, I think the cake is definitely the mole's way of dealing with the difficulties of life. And because he's told us to express himself, he's the addictive part of me. He's the part of me that reaches for cake when life gets tough until he discovers a hug and

says, I've discovered something better than cake in the voices. No, you have to have voices. What is it? A hug at last, longer. So I think for the mole, he's definitely, you know, struggles most, even though he's quite expressive, but about K-Key underneath it, you know, there's all kinds of things going on, like all of us. Yeah, and so, right. So, so there's always a deep narrative that's trying to speak through that, you know. And that's the same for all of us. You know, I know I struggle saying that kind of thing a lot. And so I write a letter instead or I hug someone or I'm allowed to or.

Would you buy a gift? Sure. I normally send drawings to people. Oh, I, yeah. people. Oh, I, yeah, they're very famous in saying I love you without saying I love you. Well, yeah, I mean, even just that idea, I forget the exact title of the book. I was to five love languages, even the idea of those different languages I love is itself a huge breakthrough.

Yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. And a huge breakthrough. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. And often in either words, I love you. I've put it easy to say. If you're that kind of person, if you're not that kind of person and you say it rarely, it has huge meaning, but sometimes it can run off the tongue

and it's easier than many things. So I think each person is different with people of love, which in... Yeah, or you see someone who's so closed off, they can't tell people what they mean to them. And then they're just like... They've just got... Their dog has them like wrapped around their finger.

This is like the most expressive person in the world that it comes to their dog. But... Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And you know, I think we are, I think depending on our history and culture and genes and out of the way we were brought up and you know, all those things influence how how connected we are and how able we are to connect with others and and that journey of connection with self and each other is a huge one.

And you know, I sometimes, you know, people write to me and saying the book's help them to do that in both ways. And I just feel really privileged to have been sort of, I'll be indirectly part of that journey into connection, you know. And I think it will, you know, I hear people where the friends or family will talk about a page or they'll screen shot or put it over page and they'll discuss it. And they'll talk about, you know, the fact that they struggle to, you know, say, I love you.

Yeah. And it helps them say, this is what I'm like. This is how I struggle. So I, you know, I would like to say, I love you, but instead I say, you know, do you want pizza or, you know, it's all these, it's all these hidden, hidden languages we have. And, you know, that, that, in a way, that, that always, when I hear, well, I read letters where people have told me that, that, you know, there was one email I had from a guy recently who said that his father is 90 and he has to mention, doesn't know who he is, and his son, he would come to the home

where his father was through a three generations. And the only thing they had in common was that his father, the Nigereteer, had the book and would stare at the book. And so they'd read all through them and read the book together and connect together with the book, even though the father had no idea who his son or grandson was. But they were connecting somewhere, somehow deep down, somewhere in the deep rivers of who they were. And of course, when I read that, I just cried like a

child, cried like a personal, cried like someone who's crying. I mean, I was like, I was overwhelmed by the privilege of that that I could have helped in that in some way, in that agonized situations. Well, though you think that's what art is, right? It's so someone can go, this, this is how I feel. Like, the artist starts that way, but then the reason the art spreads and has sort of resonance is because in touching the specific, it touches the general, or it touches a large portion of the population

who goes, this captures an emotion, a moment, a fear, a worry, a whatever inside me, and I can now connect with another person through it. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. What is this idea of home in the book, right? If I'm trying to think of the one sort of the plot of the book or the progression,

it's that they're somewhere and they're trying to get home. What does home mean to you exactly? It's a really good question and I'm not certain myself, but I think it's something that we have a sort of an instinct for. And you know, home is a strange way because it could just be in a house with windows and a chimney in front door, but I think it's not that. It's a sense of belonging. It's a sense of a deep sense of connection. And I like the concept and I like the idea that it's not a place.

I like the idea that the boy says, home is not a place, is it? Because I think actually, you know, like, in the book, he's definitely lost. You know, sometimes I feel lost. There's a lostness in the boy. I like that thing, there is in all of us. And it's a physical one and a emotional one and a spiritual one. It's all it's lots of things combined. And I think there's always that search in us wanting home. Yeah. And yeah. It's also, I've found that places can evoke Yeah, it's also I found that places can evoke a feeling. So like when I go back to where I went to college or and I know you mentioned this in your bio,

I lived in New Orleans for a couple of years. I don't have a place there. I don't have any family there. I have some friends still there. But when I go and I walk on the neutral ground or I walk through the Through Audubon Park it evokes it brings me back to who I was and what was going on and where I was as a writer At that time and it fills me with a sense of feeling and emotion and and

nostalgia That I can't get anywhere else. Right. So my last question for you was about this idea of enough, which you talk about a little bit in the book, and I wonder with the extraordinary success of the book, too, have you thought more about that idea? People seem to want, people seem to think that if they just accomplish X, Y, or Z, or if they just win this or that, then they'll feel good. Yeah, although I just get a few more likes on Instagram. Yes, yes. I just get verified if I just get profiled in the New

York Times, if I just, you know, I love when you talk to people and they have a number, you know, like a certain amount of money, and then they'll then they'll then they can retire or whatever, you know, there's there's that sort of conditional happiness. Yes, I mean, it's the human condition though, isn't it? We all feel, if we were just a bit richer, a bit thinner, a bit stronger, a bit better looking. And I think a real achievement is contentment, is to not feel that ever exhausting, continue to desire for something more that would make us complete. I think when

you are complete and you are enough, you can manage to silence the voice in your head telling you that you're not or society telling you you're not or your father or your mother or whoever it is that's influencing you to sense that if you just did a little bit more, earned a bit more, you'd be more attractive or more lovable or whatever it is that we feel we're not. It's to just take a deep breath and really sit in your own skin and think I'm, and it may be cliché but I'm loved and I'm enough,

and I'm a beautiful person, and say, well done to yourself, rather than saying, come on, you haven't done enough, or whatever it is that the mantra in your head, or the tapes you listen to in your head that tell you that it's a silence to them, you know what? Now, it's a great moment when the things that you think will satisfy when you suddenly realize

they don't and those things that we're never designed to in the first place. If they're like slave masters almost. I read a book by this journalist in Texas who developed a friendship with Mr. Rogers over the years and the book was titled, I'm Proud of You, because they would write these letters back and forth and Mr. Rogers sensed that this guy was motivated by, I think his father or some career drive to do or be, or whatever.

And he just started signing his letters first with I'm Proud of You and then I, P-O-O-Y, like I'm proud of you. He would just write this over and over again to the Mr. Rogers would write this in the letters to this guy. So this guy could get this sense, that he could fill that thing,

that he thought he could chase, but he really had all along. And I think, yeah, there is the idea of the character sort of realizing that they're enough and that having each other is enough. I mean, if you can get that as a kid, oh, man. Then you're set. Yeah. You are set.

I mean, I remember being like I used to work for a while with a homeless charity. And now and again, you know, I go into some quite difficult areas of London and rough areas of London and I'm being in a housing estate once and I met this family and clearly they had very little and they lived in, you know. But I remember thinking to myself

when I stopped into them a sense of almost envy that they were really content with their lot. Like, you know, they lived in a pretty, I can't describe where you can imagine, you know, and, you know, they definitely had nothing again, but they were content, and I thought, well, that's wealth right there and they were happy they laughed easily and loved each other well and they didn't have that clearly have that voice and I'm going oh well clear you have no right to be happy because look what you have or what you don't have. And there's a beauty in that sense of, enoughness that is quite rare, I think.

Do you know the story about Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut? No, I love Kurt Vonnegut and my gosh, you'll let me know. I don't tell you. Vonnegut wrote a little poem about it, but apparently he was at a party with Joseph Heller who wrote Catch 22. And you know, as, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, right? You're sort of like party favors or something, a status symbol for rich people. And so they're at this party of this billionaire outside of New York. And Vonnegut is teasing Joseph Heller and he says, you know, how does it feel to know that that this guy made more money this week than your books will make in your entire lifetime.

And and he says, but I have something he'll never have. And Vaughnigit says, what could that possibly be? And he says, I know what enough is. Oh, pretty good, right? I really love that. Yeah, I know what enough is spectacular. That's, yeah, I love that. Yeah. And it's not like, and what I love about that story is, you know, this was, I forget when exactly this was, but, you know, he never recreates that success because how many people can write more than one generational defining book. But it's not like he sat around on his asses all life. He still did stuff. He just, he just wrote from a place of fullness rather than craving. But that's hard. It's

hard to get there. I, I, I think it is for many reasons. Yeah, but it's, it's, I, I think it is for many reasons. Yeah, but I think it's a huge discovery and a huge achievement. It's certainly more rare than people who continue, in a way, Tom Brady winning all these Super Bowls, that's actually less rare than somebody just being content with who they are. Well, you know, I was once years ago, I'm not a gambler and I don't really like gambling,

but I was invited to some dinner and it was at a quite a smart sort of casino in London. I'd never been to one and I certainly, it's not my thing, but there was an Irish friend of mine who had never been to one either. And, and he did the roulette table or something and he earned 2,000 pounds just vaccinated and he just went home with it and never got handled again. It was perfectly happy with that. And he, you know, he was, I just, it was a magnificent response, which was, he was there. He did it. And he went, you know, which was quite out of money then,

and it didn't feel, oh gosh, well, I could make more, you know, there wasn't this hankering for more, he was straight, and then off he went, and I admired that so deeply, somehow. Yeah, that'll be the struggle for you having sort of hit the lottery on this book. I don't mean financially. It's just you have a one and a million sort of viral word content and happy as you continue as an artist? Or do you just not think about it at all?

I don't think about it too much. And success has its own difficulties. And I quite like, I quite enjoying, I quite enjoy a simple life and uncluttered life. So I don't, I don't hanker to do it again. And I feel genuinely grateful that, you know, we did something that has helped people. And because I didn't intend the first one to be a success, I don't think I'll really try and make it, if I do one, the next one is success either. I'll just be surprised if it is. You know, and whatever fame is, I did it during recently of the boys saying, And whatever fame is, I did it during recently of the boy saying, what do you think of fame?

And the horse just said, who's he? Because I do think it's completely meaningless and quite unhealthy. But that said, if you can use it for good, then I think that's great. I mean, I know, for instance, we did a t-shirt. I've done some t-shirts the last couple of years for a friend who runs a charity called Comic Relief and Red Nose Day. It's an American advert. And that charity sort of funds hundreds of not thousands of projects all over the world helping with anything from

child mental health, to poverty, to education, all those things. And we sort of did a t-shirt that I drew the boy in the mall and a t-shirt and it said, love winds, they're sitting on a heart and it made two million pounds in I think 12 days. And for them, for the charities, for me, if you can use success as a sort of platform from which to, you know, do the things that's great. But otherwise, I think it becomes a, it's quite destructive. And, you know, I, I'm just a very kind of scruffy ordinary individual with dirty fingernails drawing and pictures in a barn. And I like that. And I don't really feel the need to be anything more or more different to that. I mean, I'm just trying to be as honest as I can.

So on one level, I'm deeply thrilled, for instance, to be speaking to you and being here to be listening to by people in Texas or wherever they are there. And I'm loving the fact you're listening, and that's wonderful. And that's a surprise, but it's not something that I ever sort of tried to conspire, and it's not something that I ever don't would happen. And in a way, it's a strange experience.

One that, and the saddest thing in the world, and it happens a lot, is if success at a chosen thing deprives you of the ability to do that thing, either because you become distracted and too busy, or because now you you've sucked the joy out of it with expectations or entitlements or whatever. Right. Yeah, you're right. I think it can. It can't destroy the people that you were doing it for to be in with? Right.

Yeah. No completely. I mean, I think you're right. I think, you know, it can cloud your view of how you used to see things which made you able to do the thing in the first place. For instance, Yes. It can elevate you or make you feel more important, you know, self-important.

And therefore, it can make you proud and therefore then kill the purity of the instinct you had to make that what you did or whatever it is. Or just steal all your time. I was reading a biography of Ralph Ellison. It's like he spent the last third of his life, you know, on panels and teaching and, you know, doing everything but, you know, writing another novel. Well, there you go. I mean, I am, you know, one of the interesting things about this is that I'm we're making an animated film and that takes up huge nights of time in a day. Yeah. Which I wouldn't have been doing how I not made the book. So I'm glad we're doing that. So sure. But yeah, you're right. I mean, there are so many kind of pitfalls around success. And I think keep your head down, keep low. Remember where you came from. Enjoy the simple things in like cherish your friends.

You know, have some cake. Have some cake. Don't see yourself any differently. Recognize that you, you, you, you wind it and you're still winning it. And, you know, and you, and, and it's funny. And it's, you're enough and be grateful. You know, we'll also be grateful that you if you have that you help some you that's that's the best thing you do wishful. And yeah, just

remember that you're made of clay. And that you'll soon be Asher's Indust as the story. That's it. You certainly are. And pride is a dangerous thing. Yeah. and pride is a bit interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Charlie, thank you so much. This was beautiful. And thank you for the book. So many memories for us and our family about it.

It really is a beautiful piece of work. And it was an honor to get to talk to you. I mean, please say hello to your family. And then, you know, Ryan, you're great at chatting. It's nice to spoken to you. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it.

I'll send you a copy of the boy who would be King of your address. I would be thrilled to read it. And you sell prints on your website, right? I was seeing this. I want to get some of these prints. They look amazing. Oh, you're very kind.

Well, I'm sure you can send you some, you know, let's chat later or two. Okay. But thank you. And I, you know, I hope your shot goes from strength to strength. Yeah, no, it's, it's, we sell, we sell the boy who would be king at the bookstore and people love it. And yeah, it's been amazing. It's been, it's so cool. You watch, you know, mostly obviously it's the little kids that come in, we have a tree house in the back and they climb the tree house and they grab it

with one of your books and they just, you know, it's just amazing to see kids reading. And when they do read something amazing, they immediately forget about phones and television and all that stuff because reading does touch something very deep in us. Right, that's lovely. Charlie, thank you so much. I won't take up any more your time. No, no, no, I'm grateful to you. Thank you so much.

Amazing. All right, well, I had stopped here. Thanks so much for listening. If you could leave a review for the podcast, we'd really appreciate it. The reviews make a difference and of course every nice review from a nice person helps balance out. The crazy people who get triggered and angry anytime we say something they disagree with. So if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and add free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.

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