The Daily Stoic - Chris Bosh, Les Snead, Scott Oberg, Bob Bowman, Dominique Dawes, and Brad Keselowski on Sports and Stoicism

Episode Date: December 25, 2021

Today’s episode features some of the best interviews on Sports and Stoicism from the podcast. Ryan talks to NBA star Chris Bosh about his book Letters to a Young Athlete and the importance of putting everything into what you do even when it’s tough, Los Angeles Rams GM Les Snead about making tough decisions under intense pressure, MLB Pitcher Scott Oberg about how Stoicism has helped Scott overcome physical and mental adversity, Olympic swimming coach Bob Bowman about how athletes can maintain stillness while still performing at a high level of excellence, Dominique Dawes about the most important moments that an athlete experiences, and NASCAR Champion Brad Keselowski about how to lead and build a team that consistently produces results. → We hope you join us in the 2022 New Year New You Challenge. It kicks off in a little over a week. It’s 3 weeks of actionable challenges, presented in an email per day, built around the best, most timeless wisdom in Stoic philosophy. Just go to https://dailystoic.com/challenge to sign up before sign ups end on January 1st!GiveWell is the best site for figuring out how and where to donate your money to have the greatest impact. If you’ve never donated to GiveWell’s recommended charities before, you can have your donation matched up to $250 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last. Just go to GiveWell.org and pick podcast and enter DAILY STOIC at checkout.Trade Coffee will match you to coffees you’ll love from 400+ craft coffees, and will send you a freshly roasted bag as often as you’d like. Trade is offering your first bag free and $5 off your bundle at checkout. And, this holiday season, give the coffee lover in your life the gift of better coffee too, with their own personalized gift coffee subscription from Trade. To get yours, go to drinktrade.com/DAILYSTOIC and use promo code DAILYSTOIC. Take the quiz to start your journey to the perfect cup.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://DailyStoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music download the app today Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic each weekday We bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics Something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage justice you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go

for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wundery's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. The unexpected, strange surreal perk of writing these books about ancient philosophy has been their resonance in professional athletics. Not something I expected, not something I anticipated, but as a sports fan, as a, you know, amateur endurance athlete myself. It's just been a total joy.

And I think the Stoic would have appreciated that. And Mark Serrioliis clearly was familiar with boxing and wrestling, Hepatitis as well. Cricipus was a runner. Clientes was himself a boxer. So I think the sports world and the Stoic world was in the ancient world, much more intertwined than we would associate philosophy

and physical activity today. And it's just been so awesome to see athletes with this sort of philosophical practice, but I also just love talking to people who are best in the world at what they do, how they think about craft, how they think about craft, how they think about ambition, how they think about balance, how they think about winning and losing. These are just things I love talking about.

Talk to a lot of athletes this year and last year. And so in today's compilation interview, we've got some awesome interviews. We're going to be talking to Chris Bosch, two-time NBA champion, 11-time All-Star Olympic gold medalist on the pursuit of greatness. We're talking about Los Angeles Rams GM, less need about keeping the main thing, the main thing. We're gonna be talking to Major League Baseball

pitcher Scott Oberg on overcoming adversity, which he has had to experience in a very difficult career. It's been ravaged by injuries as of late. We're going to talk to swimming coach Bob Bowman the guy behind Michael Phelps on Balancing stillness and excellence and then I was also lucky enough to talk to USA Olympic gold medalist Dominique Dawes finally we have NASCAR champion Brad K Keselowski on reaching your maximum potential. And here is my interview with Chris Bosch. If you haven't read the book that he and I collaborated

on letters to a young athlete, you can click that in the links below. To me, the definition of stoicism is that you don't control what happens, you control how you respond. And that's what you have to do as an athlete, that's what you have to do as a parent, we had to do the last year in the pandemic,

which is like, how do I figure out how to make the best of it? Because you can't quit. Uh, quitting is not an option. I, that, that, that's one of the, sayings I like to say is that, you know, failure is not trying. Yeah.

You know, not even trying, just saying, ah, you know, whatever excuse, you give yourself not to try. Every anything you go after, you're gonna take some loves, you're gonna take some punches, you're gonna get knocked down. You know, and I didn't understand that, at least for me until, you know, losing in Dallas in 2011,

which was crazy, it's 10 years ago almost to the date. And, you know, I watch Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant every year, they make it to the finals all the time and they win. So when you get to a point where, you know, you think you have some immunity because of whatever accolades you've racked up in the past or because you're a professional basketball player on this level, when we lost, it really clicked in for me and just said, wow, okay, because sure I was dealing

thing with things off the court as a person, you feel that's not fair. And then all these other things that happen and that's not fair, at then all these other things that happen and that's not fair. At least we could win, right? This dumb championship. And then we lose it. And it's like, ah, how devastating is that? It's like the loss in the family. You know, it's like, it's a sudden loss, you know. And especially when you put yourself, you put yourself in the state of mind of visualizing yourself doing it for months and months and months, you know. And then for me, it was especially tough. It's my hometown team. We're playing the Mavericks. I'm watching, I'm watching my ex-class mates wear Mavericks jerseys and shirts, they didn't watch that stuff. They didn't, we even nobody wore Maverick stuff back in the day. Now everybody's rocking the championship gear. It was devastating, but it made me realize how I understood right away of Jason Kidd,

Derrick Nervinsky, Jason Terry, those guys went through pain, losing back in 2006, Jason kid back in 2003. And again, in 2004, you know, it's just, or in 2001, 2002. But imagine how devastated Jason Terry would have been, because you got that tattoo. Remember, you got the, in advance. Hey, man, hey, but you know, and I learned something that too, I remember that, because I remember looking at it like, oh, these guys think they are. Hey, man, you got to get it added on you sometimes. It's like failure is not an option.

And understanding that, I understood after pretty much just coming up short and kind of having that pie in the face moment and knowing that I have to rebuild from that and hopefully get back to that level the next year, but accept whatever consequence comes. Yeah, I was talking to Manage Nobly, and he was telling me that the pivotal moment for him was going up for that rebound with you.

He said, he told me that he should have followed you is what he said. with you. He said, he told me that he should have found you is what he said. But he was saying, so he goes up for that, they end up losing the series and he comes home and he's like, I've never been more unhappy in my life. And they had never lost.

Yeah, never lost. And what he was saying though, is what struck him was he was like, I'm living my dream. I'm one of the best people in the world at what I do. I gave my absolute best. If I'm not having fun and joy in myself while I'm doing it, like I'm gonna regret it forever.

So did you come out of losing with a better appreciation for the game and for, you quote, kippling in the book, you know, like, uh, uh, to, to, to treat winning and losing as the same imposter. You know, you know, were you able to come out of that a little bit closer? After the loss. Yeah, yeah, for sure you Hate the term losing bills character, but it kind of does you just don't want to make it a habit

No, you just don't want to make it habit But having those yeah show me that show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser You know what I mean? So just like in that context, you think about the things that you could have done better. You think about maybe that day off where you're like, ah, let me just kind of close today or that moment, even if it was just for a minute, that you kind of lost focus in what you do. And that time where you say, man, I should have been having a little more, I should have been enjoying myself a little more

because we lost anyway. You know, at least could have had a good time. You know, there's a fine balance in both. And I think for me, my personal journey with that was just understanding that it could happen to you. Understanding that, you know, just because of the level your ad doesn't make you impervious to these things, you're human. You're going to have to go through this process. And sometimes you're just going to get beat up.

What are you going to, like you say, what are you going to, how are you going to react? How are you going to be the one to challenge the way that you think in getting better after this? Are you going to get better? Are you just going to kind of sit around and complain? Because after a while, that's only going to get you so far eventually, which for most of us was right away, but a guy back on the horse and you know, got to a point to say, man,

I'm not gonna let it beat me next time. There's, because there's some ego in it too, right? There's this quote I love. It's the first sign of an impending nervous collapse is the belief that your work is terribly, terribly important. And it's like, what you do is important. I'm like, I care so much about my books,

but then, you know, like, one of the things that's great about having kids is like, they don't care at all. You know, like, it's nothing to them. It's a, you might as well be in insurance sales, right? You know, and it helps put it in perspective, which is that it's important and excellence is important. And as you said, you don't want to make losing a habit.

At the same time, if you think that it's a matter of life and death, it's probably actually a bad strategy over the long term. Yeah, you don't want to, like, fight or flight is there for a reason, right? Yeah. You want to fight or fly. If you're having those feelings and you're not fighting or flighting, I don't understand, you know, and it's, especially if you're putting, sometimes you can't help it. especially if you're putting, sometimes

you can't help it. You're going to have your reaction. If you're putting in, like you say, those life or death situations I've known, people, and I've done that for myself as well, it's life or death, this game is, you know, sometimes you use it to kind of psych yourself out, but yeah, after a while, you've got to be loose. You know, you have to have to have a flow to things. You have to, you just can't be rigid. You know, that was one of the things I learned playing the game too. You know, in losing that series against Dallas, we were just so uptight. Yeah. Oh my gosh, man, just too tight.

Nothing was loose. You know, we weren't trusting the work that we had put in up into that point. And we were just kind of beside ourselves a little bit and not concentrating on playing. We were concentrating on mistakes or making it life or death or saying, oh my God, we lost a game. Okay, we got to win the next one then.

So golf is a good metaphor, I think, and that, you know, like the harder you try, the worse you are at it. Like, you still have to be good. You just, you stuff the train, you know, you stuff to know your fundamentals, but like, in booties and they talk about willful will, give too much willful will.

If you're trying to force it too much, that's when you, yeah. And you mentioned sort of tight loose. Like, that's what a trainer wants you to be. They want you to be loose. If you're tight, that's when you hurt yourself. For sure, that's when you hurt yourself.

That's when you start pulling stuff. And in plan for different coaches, the greater coaches, they emphasize being loose. As a team, you might do something. Instead of practice today, let's watch a movie. Yeah. You know, let's watch he got a game or something like that. You know, and let's discuss it.

Or let's do things to make sure that we're loose, we're good. Let's not be in this tension of life or death for the whole time, because you know, we're human beings, we pick up on those things pretty good. And if it's, and if it's like that collectively as a group, if everybody's tight, then, you know, it's, it's really not going to work. I think that's like, for instance, the unfair advantage that Tom Brady has, right? He's been there so many times. He can be like, when, and when you watch him when he's up against, you know, like a Jared Goff, who's the first time he's been in the Super Bowl, like, by definition, who's

looser, the guy who's been there, like a dozen times, you know, the guy who's, who's, who's not only been in the Super Bowl, but been down by 25 points in the Super Bowl, you can be chill because you're, like, and we talk, you and I have talked about this where it's like, the difference between ego and confidence, confidence is loose, ego is like, my identity's riding on this, everything can, but confidence is like, we've been here before.

Yeah, hey, I've been here before. We remember that time we discussed if we're down 25 at halftime. Yeah. This now is a time to implement those things. Good thing that we've talked about this because these are the packages we need to run. Yes.

And I mean, even if I'm in Jared golf situation, being a young quarterback, getting to the Super Bowl, you know, golf, Tom Brady. Oh, my goodness. You can get into all that stuff. I found that game fascinating because Tom knew like, okay, we're just going to grind these guys into the ground. We're going to make it close because I know they're a little tight. If it's a third and four and they're down three, they're gonna feel a little bit different

because they're used to their offense running at a certain level. And if it's not running at that level, you know, they're going to fill it a little bit. So, you know, it's just kind of, you got to train, man, you have to, you have to identify what those things that, you know, first, what you want to do and then work backwards from there and say, okay, hey, I want to be a really good basketball player or we want to win a championship as this team. All right, cool. These are the things that we need to do. We've got to communicate good. We've got to make sure we're practicing and putting the work

in every day. And we have to make sure that we're together and we know our stuff. So when it hits the fan, because it will, when we don't, we stay together. And make sure we're doing the things that we stay together, you know, and make sure we're, you know, doing the things that we always practice. And here's me talking to Los Angeles Rams, GM,

Les Sneed. So when I came out and talked to you guys, I guess it was two years ago now or three, I forget, but one of the things you would showed me that was sort of in the Rams cultural values was keep the main thing, the main thing. What does that mean and how do you guys actually apply that?

So really simply, I think what I would say, let's call it the, let's call it, one variable that, or the first variable is, all right, we have an organization made up of a lot of different people. And within that, each one of these individuals has an expertise. And some of those individuals are leading other experts in their realm or that group's expertise. And some of the people in those groups are trying to become experts and they have other roles

that help the experts. So number one would be the first variable was if we all come into the building and try to help the Rams improve it football, whatever your job description is, spend our energy there. So what that leads to, what we're hoping is, right, some version of some compound interest, a Jim Collins flywheel effect, a snowball effect where, right, we just keep rolling the snow and the ball gets bigger and bigger and bigger and it's because we're focused on that snowball, right?

So that's number one. The other two is I think it can cut down on some of the people interaction, collaboration, drama, right? In terms of that, I do that I think hinders production is, that's not the main thing, right? Whether, whether, you know, one person likes this color and the other person likes that color,

one person voted for this politician, the other. That's okay, that's not the main thing here. Let's get back to making rounds football. That's probably the... And I can't go this and you're going to ask a question, in the entertainment business, because our product is really... We're creating it for the public. Yeah, and the neat thing is what keeps, it's called entertainment rolling and professional sports, rolling is maybe the drama that takes place

in between the gains. Sure. And there is an element right of, there's gonna be a lot of noise on the outside. Sure. Critics, what have you ideas? But that's not the main thing. That the main thing is to create a product to that our fans can discuss it, whether they thumbs up

or thumbs down it, we have to stay focused on the main thing and the main thing is winning make Rams football. Well, it's really, I think it's not necessarily winning. That would be the result. I think what we can control is dominating our role and trying to make Rams football better. And that's a little bit easier to control. It's a little bit easier to build a task list than, hey, let's go win again. What we're hoping Ryan is, all of that combines that on Sunday, when the clock, you know, runs out and there's zero, zero, zeroes on the clock, you know,

we have more points than the other team. But. So is it like that the organization has the main thing of like get better at football? And then does each subsequent person have their own main thing? Like the GM has a main thing, the coach has a main thing, the running back has a main thing, the janitor has a main thing, and that's sort of where the the bellicic idea of like, just do your job, comes in.

Do your job be clear and concise on what that job is, right? And stealing a little bit from James Clear and some of his habit journal stuff, right? And he talks about the 80, 20 rule, right? Yeah. It's making sure everyone in the building, right, has those one, the two to three, four things that they can dominate.

They actually can manage enough time and intensely focus on that and dominate. And again, that gets back to your first question now, right? Is, right, everyone has a specific role. They know that role, they understand that role. That should allow them to not have to be at the opposite 4 a.m. and leave at 11. And it can also help individuals determine, wait a minute, this isn't a role that truly fulfills me,

so maybe I'd better go look somewhere else. Right. It must be weird for the GM because you have so much control, but then you also have so little control. Like, you can assemble the players, you can negotiate their contracts, you can set up incentives, but at the end of the day, like you can't actually throw or catch the football for them and you can't decide what plays get called. So is that a challenge to you? Like how do you, how does each person in the organization stay in their lane? That is, that is the humbling part of sports, probably a humbling part of a lot of life, but it is it is maybe the more fulfilling part of sports is right where there is there is a

a collection of humans and we're just we're collaborating to compete right we're collaborating Not necessary to be the best GM or be the best Offensive line coach or be the best athletic trainer or be the best team chaplain or be the best team Psychologists we're all collectively collaborating for the Rams to be greater and in that whole Rams is greater than all of us. So both humbling and fresh setting, yeah humbling, frustrating and fulfilling at the same time. Yeah, because not all I can I check out and go close the door real quick. Of course. Can you hear the construction? A little bit.

Much better. Yeah, one of those things you can't control. We have training camp that in Irvine and our hotel is going under full bone construction, but during COVID or times it is right, the, the obstacle is the way or the rows of the thorn is, there's only us really at this hotel. Oh nice, right. We're not sharing it.

I remember when I wrote, you goes the enemy, there was this exchange between John Snyder and Pete Carroll, someone was asking them, they said, you know, how have you guys worked together for so long, You go as the enemy, there was this exchange between John Snyder and Pete Carroll. Someone was asking them, they said, how have you guys worked together for so long? Most GMs and coaches are not, don't have long-term collaborative relationships. It tends to be short-term or collaborative or worse. They hate each other. And John Snyder said something like, ego is the enemy, meaning that the two of them were

able to collaborate because they took ego out of it, is how does that relationship work? Not just between you and Sean, but how does it work generally? Because I imagine there is some jockeying for power and control, but the only way you're both going to be successful is if you're able to collaborate with each other. Yes, and going back to the main thing, the main thing, keep the main thing, the main thing, if your main thing is a general manager head coaches to, right, gain more power, control within your organization, that doesn't necessarily help you on Sundays. Now maybe the reason one of the two is trying because they actually think

that but the energy spent trying to gain that extra power control probably somewhere along the way dilutes what they're really experts at. And then going back to that right both for general manager head coach and anyone in this building, right? We probably have different superpowers, different expertise and there's an element right where you where you definitely have to respect and then trust that the other can do you know and be useful and dominate their responsibility. So I think that is very key. And that's what really works between Sean and myself is he really wants to coach football.

And I would not be any good at coaching football. And he doesn't want to do my job. Right. He might be good at my job, but he doesn't want to do it and I think we both right that Allowing each other to do their job that allows us to really Focus on what we're experts at and at the end of the day that truly helps when we when we do sit down to Saul problems overcome obstacles, collectively, collaboratively, right, to figure out the best solution or the better innovation and things like that.

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you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. And here's me talking to Major League Baseball pitcher Scott Hoberg. I find when I'm going through crap or I'm really sort of difficult, consumed with my own thoughts or anxiety or frustrations or troubles when you focus on somebody else, not only do you forget about your problems for a while, but you may end up opening up a new door or opportunity or way of thinking about your own problems that does in fact help you.

Yeah, I think so. I think in, you know, in a roundabout way, I think it does, you know, kind of ease the suffering a little bit and, you know, I think the best, you know, I've heard this before too, you know, the best way to, you know, to make sure that you understand certain material or certain, you know, principles or foundations or whatever it may be is to be able to articulate it to somebody else so that they can understand what it is that you're talking about. And I've found myself in the past, I've always been intentional about trying to teach even younger kids, give know, to get pitching lessons or whatnot. And hearing myself say the things that I believe and kind of reinforces why I believe them or why I think that they're important. Yes, that's right. Well, Senaqa says, you know, we learn as we teach,

which I think is true, but I also find, you know, when I was writing the obstacles away, I looked at this set of studies about lead athletes. I think they're in Canada and they were talking about post-traumatic growth versus post-traumatic injury or disorder, right? And they were saying that oftentimes, the athlete may come back from the injury weaker in some way because they blew out their knee or they don't have quite the same mobility or whatever it is they put on weight. But they're better because they've spent that time studying the game, they understand, you know, their role in the game,

they appreciate their teammates more, maybe they're more connected to it. Like, I got to imagine, let's say you come back at 100% in a year, you know, next season, not only did you help your teammates through, you know, you contributed to your teammates, but the team will be, you will be coming back to a stronger team where the players are more connected with each other because of this period. And so, again, that's the idea of the obstacle being the way. Sure. Yeah, no, without a doubt. And I think, you know, you just said like in a very to me, like, you know, when you mentioned appreciation, you know, I think that that's one of the things that when the game or, you know, when life kind of puts you on the sidelines for a little bit You know the things that you were really involved in the things that you really enjoyed doing You know when you can't do them anymore you kind of have that

That that greater appreciation because now you can see it You know from a bird's eye view or from the sidelines or you know Whatever metaphor you want to apply to it, but you really get that deep appreciation for how much you enjoy it, how much you see other people being successful at it. And I think that there's an inner drive, too, to be especially at times where I've had to go through some sort of a rehab process, whether it was with surgeries or whatever it else is. You have the game taken away from you for a small period of time and I'm watching on

TV, I'm watching the dugout or what have you. It motivates me to want to get back out there. The things that I'm going to do with the training staff or physical therapists or whatever may be, like you said, there might be some physical atrophy in the muscles, but you know, mentally, I might be stronger, I might be better because I know I've gone through the process and I've gone through all the steps to get back to ultimately where I want to get to.

And I think that's where that appreciation comes in. And that's where it becomes maybe a little bit more digestible to overcome those obstacles on a on a daily basis when, you know, like we were saying earlier, you know, you just don't sometimes you just don't feel like doing it. Yeah, yeah. So I was you mentioned earlier the idea of pictures and throwers or pictures or throwers. And I was thinking about this when I was writing stillness. My book stillness is the key, which is probably the book I talk about baseball the most. I was talking about this idea that I didn't come up with it, but it's a pretty well established fact,

as you all know, as you know, that sort of hitting a baseball is the single hardest act in professional sports, right? But part of the reason it's so hard is because people like you are on the other side, right? You're trying to make it as hard as possible. So I'm interested in this idea. You were saying that, you know, perhaps as you're physically declining in one sense, you're also getting more strategic,

more clever, better able to disguise your pitches, better able to get in the head of the batter. Is that sort of how you've seen your career arc, not just as a human being who spent time in the league, but also as you've been battling these sort of physical obstacles that they forced you to get better mentally. Damon. You dropped off for a sec. Did you hear me? I heard up until a couple of seconds ago, if you were just starting to get into all

and then you're gonna go get the mound and okay. Yeah, yeah. So in stillness is the key. I was probably my book I talked the most about baseball, but I was referencing this idea, which I'm sure you've heard a million times, it hitting a pitch in baseball is the hardest act in professional sports.

But the reason it's hard is because guys like you are on the other side, right? You're trying to make it hard. And I was curious, you're talking about pictures or throwers. Have you seen your arc as you've gone on, as you've gotten older dealt with these physical things that you've had to get more strategic, more clever, you know, play the psychological game as a picture?

Is that sort of how you've seen yourself developing? Yeah, without a doubt. Even just on the baseball side, outside of the medical, it's been its own transition, it's own transformation where younger in my career, I kind of, I sped through the minor leagues a little bit quicker than what is the norm, I guess. I think I was up there within three years of being drafted, especially for somebody that wasn't a very particularly high draft kick. It kind of breaks the norm a little bit. And so I got up there and I was throwing very hard,

but my command wasn't great. My off speed pitches, you know, they had great movement to it, but they weren't very effective because they weren't landing in the spots that it needed to get to. And the first four years of my career, I was bouncing back and forth between AAA

and the big lead level because I wasn't throwing enough strikes. I was walking too many batters. The Scouting Report was, hey, this guy's probably gonna throw four balls before he throws three strikes, so wait a minute a little bit. And then the times where I would fall behind in account, now I have to be back in the zone, and that's where the damage we get done.

I give up a lot of doubles, a lot of home runs. And you go through those growing pains as an athlete on the field and that was really like the first major time, extended period of time where I really failed athletically. So that's kind of almost like a tone unique shock to the system because I think as athletes, especially guys that get to the levels, you know, because I think as athletes, especially guys that get to the levels they get to, you know, more times than not, they're kind of, they're not really as challenged as

as much as they probably could be until they get to the top level. And at that point, you know, sometimes you have to take a look at the mirror and maybe change some things around. So I ended up dropping some pitches that had made me successful over the years. You know, I had been a two-seam fastball and a curveball type of pitcher when I got up to the big leagues and then what ended up making me successful was a four-seam fastball and I slidered. So it was almost as if, you two different pictures. I mean, even the times where I would watch video for myself on myself, I would almost disregard my first couple of years because it's

like watching completely different person, a completely different picture. I'm not going to be able to learn anything from that picture at least within the game itself from a standpoint like that, where, if I'm trying to pick something up, or how should I attack certain hitters, the person that I was, the picture that I was in 2018, 2019, was vastly different from the picture I was in 2015, 2016, where I was throwing hard, but I had no clue where it was going.

I was a that was a thrower, so to speak. And, you know, I had to learn how to be a pitcher in AAA. And the last time that I got I got sent back down was in 2018. You know, I had come off a playoff experience in 2017. I thought I had kind of writing the ship a little bit and I opened up the season in April and it was not very good. So I had to go back down to Albuquerque and readjust some things. But when I came back up, I had made all of the right adjustments. I had really put all my focus into what it was that I was trying to do because I knew I had the stuff. I had the movement of the pictures. I had

similarly velocity on my fastball. And at that point it was just a matter of really tightening everything up, narrowing the focus, getting to a point where I can be consistent with the locations of my pitches. And I think you see, I think the difference between the pictures and the thrillers or that the pictures can really command the fastball on both sides of the play pretty much whenever they want to. And you know, we were talking about literally Hawkins earlier. And I mean, one of the first things I ever asked some was I said hawk What was you know what's made you successful? Why you know what is it about you? That has been able to play 18 19 20 years at the major league level not just professional baseball

Right and he's like one. He's like you get a he's like your body's a race car and you got a fuel at like one and Number two, he's like, your body's a race car and you got to feel it like one. And number two, he's like, he took a home plate and he took both of his hands and he just kind of went back and forth on the corners. And he's like, he got to live on the corners in the sleek. What does that mean? He's like, basically, you got to put the fastball on both sides of the plate.

You got to be able to throw on the corners. He's like, you can't catch too much of the plate. Interesting. So he was really able to just go in and out, on both sides of the plate, lefties and righties, put his fastball really where he wanted to. And it took a little bit of time to figure that out and to get that.

But once it did, it clicked. And I went from a guy that was probably one of the worst relievers in the league to now I'm right up there with some of the worst relievers in the league, to now I'm right up there with some of the best relievers in the league. And to me, it was just, you know, really establishing the fastball command and learning how to pitch. Here's me talking to Bob Bowman.

We're in a way that that requires, like, clearly, you're not Michael Phelps or Katie Ladekier or Simone Manuel without an incredible amount of self-discipline. Or Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan or whomever. But it's almost as if the highest level of self-discipline is how do you discipline your self-discipline? Right? How do you say, just because this is the direction trajectory we're going, doesn't

mean we're going to continue, we're actually going to stop, we're going to scale back, we're going to pivot slightly, we're going to do this intentionally, as opposed to just can, you know, letting the momentum and the expectations of everyone else determine what and how we do things. Exactly. And after we did get to that point, it just took two years. Right. And by the time we did that, that affected his London performances for sure, although

I thought he did a credible job based on kind of how he had prepared. But what I decided, I'll tell you how I got to that, how we got out of it was, I was at a breaking point too. Like, you know, Michael was doing things like, not coming to practice for two weeks, right? Yeah. He never missed a practice in 12 years, right? You know, it was like, okay.

And that was sort of our hallmark, right? We're here, we're invested, we're doing all this stuff, nobody else is doing, and that's what makes us great. So instead of kind of, you know, understanding what he was going through, I just doubled down on the, you know, you're throwing your career away, you're letting everybody, you know, I did everything

you could do that was stupid in that part. And finally, our agent, Peter Carlisle, who's such a tremendous resource for both of us, I was talking with him about it. I was frustrated. Michael wasn't coming to practice, and he wasn't going to be able to do this. And this meet was coming up, and we needed to do this, but we didn't do it. So it was my as well, just not even go and all this kind of stuff. And he said, two things. It's like, I'm going to give you a book at Cartoli, the power of now. And he sent it to me. And I would suggest that in this circumstance, how about we just let everything go except for when Michael comes in to practice,

you give him the best practice you can give him on that day and leave it at that. Be present, right? Just focus on the present, not what didn't happen, not what's gonna happen. And when I started doing that, the practices weren't too bad. Andy kept coming back. So that's kinda how we got out of it.

But of course I read the power now, I've probably read it seven or eight times now. And that really changed my outlook on how to deal with a lot of things, not only just in swimming, but in my life. And I just think that was a very powerful learning thing for both of us. And Michael's read that book a couple times now. We both sort of rely on it. Well, that strikes me as a very sort of Phil Jackson approach of like this sort of jujitsu Zen approach to like, don't try to force it, you're not going to get this from a top-down way. How do you sort of strip things down to their essence? Think about what this specific person needs in this specific instance,

and that usually letting go and being present gets you there better than force or as they say, sort of willful will. Exactly. And, you know, I think when I started coaching, just because of the coaches that coached me and kind of the environment of sports, when I was, you know, in the 80s, when I was kind of really doing it. I got into it and it's the classic example of when all you

have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Yes. And you get very good results with that quickly, right? But what you find is over time, you just, oh, you just create so many more problems than you solve by doing that. And you kind of hope that you'll get the result at the end of the season and everybody's kind of bought in again to do it again. And then you kind of double down on the, I can be, make you do this, right? And but that's just no way to have sustained success. It's not a really

way to teach people what to do. And I feel like as a coach that is my biggest growth area is that I've gotten away from that kind of what the coach says goes and you do this to here's what we're going to do. Here's our plan, buy into it. I'll push you for sure. And I'll let you know if you're not kind of doing what you said you wanted to do, but I just feel like the whole mindset of what we do is different now. And that's a very good thing. Yeah, that was what was, I think, most striking to me, and I think most missed about what Simone Biles did during the Olympics was, it wasn't even a coach. It was she noticed it in herself that she wasn't where she needed to be and she had the discipline. And I would, I would say the courage and the confidence to be like, no,

this isn't right. I'm going to adjust in the following way when, when there must have been, I mean, just think of the financial pressure, the cultural pressure, the teammate pressure, the coach pressure, all of that pressure she was able to somehow have the self-awareness and the sense of self to make a decision that clearly must have violated all every core of like the athlete's commitment to the game as well. Exactly. It was an amazing thing to just witness and see how it took place over the period of those games. And I was very impressed with her and just her self-awareness, I guess is the word, right? You know, you know yourself, you know what you're capable of.

Obviously, we know she's capable of doing amazing things, but just to be able to do that in that environment was really impressive. And to me what's actually most impressive is like, if she had just said like, I'm not feeling it, because I think we've all done this in any person that also has some like leveraging that a career knows this, it's why celebrities celebrities throw tantrums and storm off. You're like, I'm not feeling it, I'm out, right? Which is often rooted in actually a kind of self awareness, but you don't have the self control or the discipline to explain yourself to, like she could have just said,

like she could have just flown home, right? Like for sure. And it would have been also a controversy, but there would have been no consequence. She could have just left. What I found so impressive is that she stayed and she competed. So it wasn't even like an all or nothing thing.

I mean, she still won a bronze medal. So you're like, she was able to have not just like the vague sense of awareness that some of us have, where we're like, something's not right. I don't want to force it. She was able to dial in specifically to what she could and couldn't do, compartmentalize it enough to do the thing that she could do at such a high level that she was the third best in the entire world, you know, in that brief moment,

even despite all the controversy, distraction, attention, and focus. Exactly. Yeah. So the power of now, have there been some other books that have been influential for you as a coach? Yeah, all of yours. I've read all of them. And that's just not because I'm on here. That's the truth. I love that. I've the daily stoic, you know, I gave it to Michael. Oh wow. I give it. That's probably the one I give out as a gift most often. And I'm giving it away. Tell me and I'll send I'll send the leather ones for you. Oh, that would be awesome. That would be beautiful. I think I'm on my third time through it. Oh, wow.

I read it every day regardless. Like when I went to the Olympics, I took it with me. So every day, the first thing I do in the morning is read that day's passage. So it has a lot of big impact on me. And I like it because it's small enough that it doesn't take a lot of time to read, but it can have a big impact. And then I try to have a cup of coffee and just sort of reflect on it

before I start my day. So that's the first thing I do every day. What other books have worked for you? Like what other books do you pass to athletes? Power of now is a big one. A new earth, right? You know, say kind of thing. To athletes, I try to keep it, you know, I like stillness is the key. I was the one I've given out the most. Oh wow. Because I think it's easily accessible to them and I think it teaches them a lot about how to beat.

I think in their worlds today, there's just so much noise, right? Sure. So much iPhone and constant stimulation. And to be able to get yourself out of that, I think is one of the most important skills they can learn. I read a daily book that you might like called A Calendar of Wisdom by Leo Toastoy. He, you know, of a warm piece and all his famous books.

But he collected like what he thought were his favorite quotes or ideas, sometimes their Bible passages, sometimes their passages from the Stelix. It's not a, it's a little less like put together, it's not like quote story, quote story or something. But I like to flip through that every day and it's part of my morning routine. I think that's cool. And what's the name?

It's called a calendar of wisdom. A calendar of wisdom. I will definitely get it. Do you see that as part? I think people sometimes think that, and I know obviously just this provenant because we've talked about it so much. But I have been amazed at just what a big focus, sort of personal development, reading, philosophy even has been in athletics, not just with coaches, but with athletes.

And actually what a bond it is between athletes and coaches, like I did this book Letters to a Young Athlete with Chris Bosh, and he was talking about almost all his favorite books were given to him by a coach at one point or another because they addressed a very specific issue or part of his game or personality that he was working on. Yeah.

No, I try to use that more and more now, particularly with college athletes, I think it's a great thing. And I was trying to go some, oh, I did all the Mickey Singer books you ever read those? The surrender. You never even heard of them. Oh, well, the surrender experiment, the untethered soul. Oh, I know that one, yeah.

That's like, it was Oprah's favorite book of whatever some year. But it's more Eckhart Tolly type stuff. It's based on some Buddhist, you know, he is, was Buddhist, but it's an amazing story, his personal life, and I've actually shared that with some athletes because it just lets you think about your life in a lot of different ways. One of the things that I kind of try to think about with myself when I'm trying to be philosophical, is that you wanna be in alignment, right? And I don't wanna get too religious or anything else, but like if you're in alignment with the source, right?

Sure. You're making the right decisions. You're doing the making-stoic decisions, right? You wanna do the right thing first before everything else. Sure. And a lot of times trying to get to that, I feel like just surrendering and letting it happen and letting it go, that's when your life starts to flow. When you try to resist a lot of things that happen to you in life, they persist, right? Whatever you resist, persist. So I'm trying to

teach my kids that, you know, the less resistance you put up to things, the easier you solve problems and the more flow you have in your life. And I think these books teach that. For the last two years we've been doing this thing that we call the Daily Stoic New Year New You Challenge. It's 21 actionable challenges. One per day built around the best oak wisdom, but for what? How to be better in the new year. This is the time when we start to think about what we're going to do next, where all the time went, what we wish had gone differently or better. How we're still struggling with this or that. How we'd like to stop doing this or that. And that's what the new, your new challenges is all about.

It's my favorite thing that we do, and it's three weeks of actionable challenges presented in one email per day built around the best, most timeless wisdom and stoic philosophy. It should help you snap out of this trance. We've all found ourselves in and help make 2022 your best year yet, no matter what's happening in the world around you, go to dailystowick.com slash challenge to join us. I'd love to have you. I'm challenging you to join me.

I can't wait to see you. DailyStowick.com slash challenge. Here's me talking to Dominique Dawes, one of the best there ever was. I read something from Billie Jean King Ones or she was sort of saying the paradox of being a great athlete, I'd be curious about your experiences,

is that precisely the perfectionism, the focus on what could have been better where you fell short, you know, what went wrong, is what makes you great. It obviously creates a feedback loop where you are getting better, but it also makes it extraordinarily difficult to enjoy or even notice that you are at the peak

of your game or that you've accomplished an incredible amount. Like you're not able to enjoy the peak because all you're focusing on is the next peak or how imperfectly you got there. Exactly, like what you did in the complex, like it's never enough. I mean, there was just this great piece on HBO

and it was talking about the mental aspect of the sport of gymnastics and how many Olympians are just never satisfied and then when even their career is over, there's that kudawada shudda. There's that what's next because their identity is wrapped up in being that particular athlete and nothing more because you sacrifice so much, especially if you didn't sense your childhood.

So it is hard to kind of, you know, I guess be satisfied, but that's what makes I think a lot of athletes so great that they have that. Like you mentioned before, that drive. We always want to do more and be better. Yeah, and especially if you came from a place in your childhood where maybe you didn't fully feel enough, where you felt like, hey, you know,

it's like when I'm succeeding at this, this is when I feel like my parents are proud of me or I feel like I'm more accepted. We can pick up all these super complicated issues that kind of get intertwined with winning or success or money or fame. And then I think the saddest, hardest part is you finally get everything that you think

you wanted and it didn't do what you hoped. And so it's encouraging to me to hear you talk about the family stuff because that is the one element for me that has never, that turned out to be even better than I thought. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, yeah. Hitting number one was great, but anti-climactic. You know, I've never felt like any experiences with my family were anti-climactic.

My wedding was not anti-climactic. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, you know, waking up in the middle of the night hearing a screaming baby at 2 a.m., not the most joyful, you know, no experience in life, but it's very fulfilling and I know I'll miss those days and I really don't miss being at the Olympics. You know, I don't reminisce, and I don't reminisce and miss, oh, that feeling that I got in 1996 standing on the podium, which I was very honored to be a part of that and honored to have such amazing teammates and

that and honored to have such amazing teammates and, you know, to win a gold medal and make history. But when I dream about, you know, exciting moments and memories in my life, those don't come up. They really don't. It's the time, you know, with my spouse or, you know, making that commitment to say I do because I never thought I would get married coming from a divorced household and seeing so much heartache and pain there. Or, you know, birthing to children naturally and then birthing twins, you know, like, wow, that was just, you know, a miracle and amazing, but people do it all the time.

Like, they do it every day, but it was those are the moments that I really relish and they make me smile and they're fulfilling for me. And then the moments today of a young kid walking through my door smiling or the stories that I've heard of parents that had their kids in gymnastics,

they had a negative experience, they were in a very unhealthy environment, too much pressure, a lot of negativity. They get into our classes here, they have a blast, and they're smiling, and they can't wait to come back. That's fulfilling. I'm not saying that the Olympics doesn't matter to me. It definitely did, but that's not what, you know,

that's not what fulfills me and that's not what makes me whole. And it was a little difficult, I will say, as a young athlete, winning gold, sitting on top of the podium and being like, oh, this is it, Like I'm not fulfilled. What just happened here, this is what, and then I, when I reached investing and putting away over a million dollars, I was like, oh, wait, I'm supposed to feel so much better about myself and so great.

But I know. And so it's those moments with your family. It's those moments with your spouse. It's those moments knowing that you've planted an amazing positive seed in the stranger's life. That those are the moments that fulfill us and that'll last with us for a lifetime. Yeah, I remember when my book hit number one for the first time,

I was mowing the lawn. Yeah. The text came in and it's like, I still have to finish mowing this lawn. And it was this thing. It was like a five year thing in the making and it had been this, and I expected to feel X and I felt sort of the lack of X.

And then when I think about like the best moments of my life, you know, it's like sitting on a porch wing with one of my kids and they say something cuter, you know, it's weird how the actual ordinary things are actually what you find to be extraordinary and the extraordinary things as great as they are and as much as they facilitate, you know, you couldn't have gotten the million dollars

without winning the Olympics and you couldn't open the gym without the, but it's how little we actually need to be happy. And yet we spend, unfortunately, people spend so much of their time. Like, some people feel that, I guess, I'd be curious what you think. So they get on the get on the on the on the medal standard, they hit number one, and it's anti-climactic. You can kind of go two ways when you experience that number one is you go, oh, okay, this is actually isn't it. I got to go find something deeper and more meaningful, and then other people go, oh, it's not one super bowl that I needed. It's the most super balls of all time. Then I'll have it. Yes, so then it'll be never enough.

I've done motivational speaking as you have for a while, and I've done work with presidents, and very known and very powerful people. And I remember on stage, people asking me, oh, what's the most exciting thing you've done? And I was like, well, actually last week, my two dogs who went on this walk, and I saw them and the most exciting thing you've done? And I was like, well, actually last week, my two dogs, we went on this walk and I saw them perform.

And they were like, are you serious? And I'm like, no, like I'm in the moment during those periods of life that you said, or you say are ordinary, but those are really the extraordinary moments in our life that we need to appreciate. The other day, I'm driving home with my daughter after a very long day at the gym,

and we were both exhausted, and we see a double rainbow that she points out and she's screaming and so giddy and so excited. And just kind of like that's a moment that I'll never forget. And just recognizing her reaction to that and how exciting and then we started talking about a beach trip we had, goodness I guess it was a couple of years ago

where we saw a double rainbow then and she remembered, I was like, how does she remember that? I was years ago. But it's those little moments and appreciating those that truly are gifts and they are the extraordinary moments in our life that we will hold onto.

But many of us see them as ordinary. We don't appreciate them. We don't recognize the beauty of them. And so we always think we've got to be on top of that podium. We've got to win not just one Super Bowl, like you said, but multiple Super Bowls. And that's what I'm going to be fulfilled. And I truly think everything that will fulfill us in life, it's right in front of us. Just many of us choose not to see it.

And I went through life many years not seeing it. And it is my husband that kind of opened my eyes to the fact that it's truly those simple, simple moments in life that are truly gifts for all of us. Yeah, and I just love how timeless that idea is to, I mean, you go back to the Stokes and Mark really says the Emperor of Rome and he's like, what is this?

He's like, so I have like a fancier cloak than other people. Like this doesn't change anything, you know, or you know, 500 years ago, Blaze Pascal said, all of humanity's problems stem from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone. And you're like, oh, yeah, if I could just be here like with this, whether, yeah, whether it's cleaning up the gym in the morning, or I bet I love that experience of getting somewhere, you're turning the lights on, and they're flickering up. When I get into my office in the morning, I'm the first one there, there's no one there, it's quiet, and I get to dig into this thing I love.

That's way more satisfying than, you know, a chunk of a royalty check or, you know, a profile and a newspaper or something. It's weirdly being able to sort of tap into the sort of humanness of it, I think that's the most wonderful. Mm-hmm. That's, yeah, very true. I mean, I guess, you know, as we are both, you know, very accomplished individuals, I know many people listen and be like, well, very true. I mean, I guess, you know, as we are both, you know, very accomplished individuals, I know many people listen and be like, well, of course they feel that way

because they've accomplished certain things or whatever don't have certain life struggles or challenges they think. But I will say the happiest people that I know in life are the people that have very little. And that they're, you know that it's about their relationships. It's about the simple things in life. And they are living a much less stress-filled life

than many of us ever could. Right, yeah. Blessed are the meek. And I think too, although I'm very privileged, and I'm like, you know, I've made some money in, I have some nice things, but the things that I'm most happy about, or the things that I enjoy the most, were not at all a function of the success or the privilege. Do you know what I mean? not at all a function of the success or the privilege.

Do you know what I mean? It's like, like, it's not the car that makes me happy if you told me I had to sell the car and get a different car. That isn't what would get me up out of bed in the morning. It would be where I'm driving the car and what I get to do. You know, like, it's just because someone has something, like the Stowe have talked a lot about this,

they'll like, look, it's better to be rich than poor if you had a choice, but a why sort of successful person should be able to be happy with either, because the external thing isn't actually changing what you're feeling inside. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't fulfill you. We just packed up and moved to come a little closer to the gym.

And I realized how many things I have, my husband thinks fulfill you. We just packed up and moved to come a little closer to the gym. And I realized how many things I have. My husband thinks I'm a hoarder, but I'm like, everything is sentimental. He's like, no, that scarf is not sentimental. You remember? Right. And one thing that I did realize is I said to the movers,

I was like, you know what, let's leave these boxes in the garage and see how much I really need and miss these items. And I really don't miss the stuff. And if someone, you know, if I had to, you know, leave a vehicle or whatever, you know, somewhere and I would never see it again, you know, that vehicle or what have you definitely did not, you know, fulfill me. It's definitely the relationships, you know, that we have in such, you know, in life, not the things.

And I think we do think the things will fulfill us, the accomplishments, and the accolades will fulfill us, or the amount of money will fulfill us. And when you do achieve that, there is this emptiness like, oh, wait, I didn't get the satisfaction that I thought I would. And, you know, if you recognize that, and you learn from it, then you'll, you know, strive to focus on the things that will fulfill you. And that's honestly relationships and impact and pursuing things you love, they're not going after things. And here's me talking to NASCAR champion Brad Kesselowski.

Well, I was gonna ask you about reading because that's how we got connected. You're clearly a big reader. Is that another thing you do as far as training the mind or is it more training your sort of a like what do you what role does reading play in being the best race car driver the world? The number one reason why I read is to be a better leader. Okay, hands down. Now there is some things that I read that help me in the car. Most of it is for out of the car. Now that said, I might find some book tomorrow that has all

these tricks and tips. But a large part of what my role is as a race car driver is out of the car and people don't see that and I can respect that they don't understand it. But I have a team of people that, kind of riding a rollercoaster of emotions. Let me back up a little bit, Ryan. In motorsports, you're a hallfamer if you win one out of every 10 races. Like it's one of the lowest averages in all sports. Everybody talks about baseball.

300, hallfamer, motorsportsports like 100 is Hallfainter. It's super difficult to win a race. It's a lot of competition. You're competing against 40 guys every week. It's only one winner. 10% is amazing phenomenon. Okay. That means you have way more bad weeks than the weeks. Even if you're a Hallfamer, nine out of 10 weeks, you did not win. And so you have this team around you of people who are gonna feed off that energy.

And that energy is always gonna be the same of we've got to improve. We've got to improve. What are we learning this week? How are we gonna apply the lessons, right? And it's this really tight feedback loop because it's weekly. We compete 35, 36 weeks a year. So you have 36 weeks a year of PDCA, Plan Do Check Act.

Plan the next race, do the race, come back and check on it. How did it go? All right, now we've got to act on it. These are all the things that weren't wrong, that we have to patch up to be better. Well, basically in that is an acknowledgement that we failed. And we didn't meet all of our goals. So, mentally, this is really tough on a team, right? You're always failing. Even races you win, you're like, all right, we might have done 99.9% everything right, but we failed here. We got to fix it.

We got to fix it. That might cost us next week, right? So that can be really demoralizing on a team to always have area to improve. And I think you asked me where I read, and I'm finally circling this back to. One of the things that's been a lot of timeline is trying to find ways

to effectively lead a team to constantly be addressing its weaknesses without falling apart mentally and without taking it the wrong way. How do I convey that message? How do I build systems that naturally convey that message in a positive way? And so I think that's a lot of the studying and reading that really I dig into and look for.

What have been some of the books that have hit you the most? There's one I really love right now and I don't know if you've read it. It's called Debrief to win. No, I'm writing this down. So Debrief to Win is a book wrote by a F-16 fighter pilot. And aviation specifically, military aviation, defense aviation is its own animal altogether. Sure. But what I love about studying the military is they have the ultimate consequence. Right.

It's life for death. It's up and you die. Yeah. And out of that comes this accountability because nobody wants to die. Right. If you want to die, you probably don't make it into the role of an F-16 fighter pilot. There's enough pre-screening in there. So, with respect to that, nobody wants to die,

and with make it close to dying and they live through it, they come back and they fix it. High level of accountability, right? And that's not just an F-16 fighter pilot, anywhere in the military where you're in combat, right? And so, they've created all these different systems of, again, like debrief to win really documents of, how do we learn from our mistakes, apply them,

in a format that has, it's very transient, right? Fighter pilots come and they go, you hope the reason they come and they go is because their time ends, but. They're retiring. They're retiring, yes, but not always, right? Yeah. And there's hard lessons.

What do you do when someone passes away in an accident? And now you've lost entire morale of the team, confidence, et cetera, right? They've lived these experiences for almost a hundred years and have really iterated the process of how to work through that. Indeed, brief to win is a great illustration of that. The consequences are mid-ally slightly higher

than motor sports. But that's good. I wanna learn from someone who has a format that's better than me. I don't wanna play down, I wanna play up. So it's probably one of my favorite books of all time. Have you read, I use it as a source in ego-as-anemy, but given your interest in military jets

and then also leadership, have you read Boyd, the fighter pilot who changed the art of war? No, but I'd love to. Okay, so right at my eye. One of the, he's one of the great fighter pilots of all time. He fights in Korea. He was called 42nd Boyd, because you could basically take

anyone down in 40 seconds. But he then becomes a fighter, a fighter instructor at Nellis. But then he goes into the Pentagon where he becomes sort of a bureaucratic fighter. So as John, how do you get stuff out of a broken, flawed, you know, complicated slow ass system. And he basically, he's the, he's the inventor of the F-15 and the F-16. He rams them through, you're a fatically. So he was this sort of reformer and, you know, sort of whistleblower, is fascinating person.

But I think one of the great leadership books of all time that you would really, really enjoy it. I'm glad we're recording. I'm coming back and watch this. I'll follow up. Yes. Do you watch Phil? Well, now I have to ask you,

because I can't do it. Can you watch film of your own appearances? Oh, all the time. Okay, so you even evaluate yourself that way? Oh, yes, all the time. Wow. It's, I think it's critical. You know, one of the things that makes racing interesting,

somebody brought up to me actually just this morning. In most sports, you have a coach. Sure. There's no coach as a driver. I think about, I don't know why, but the sport iterated away from it. Maybe it's egos, I don't know. There are a few people who have like trainers, yeah I should say most drivers have trainers,

most professional drivers have trainers, but very few coaches. And I think one of the issues or reasons behind that is like unless you live it as a driver kind of like you don't have a lot of credibility. And coaching is not really a super glamorous job for those that have raced in the past. So there's usually not a lot of successful motorsports coaches. So you're really reliant most times on your own ability to teach yourself.

Interesting. And the best way that I've found to do that is watching film over and over again. I meant do you watch like interviews you do to see where you can do you watch all kinds of things if you do to do. Oh yeah, yeah, oh absolutely. So media stuff. Yes, that's wow. Yes. Okay. Oh yeah, it's too uncomfortable. It is it's super uncomfortable. It's super uncomfortable. So I'll watch it with my wife and I'll be like, I'll consume the majority of my media on my phone. Yeah. And I'll like, in the middle of it,

kind of put my phone to the side and just go into listen, all in mode to be less uncomfortable. So there's something in the human brain that hates hearing itself. Yes, someone told me this about an audio book that because of like how your head works, you hear your voice differently

when it's coming out of your own mouth and when it's recorded. Mm-hmm. Has something to do works, you hear your voice differently when it's coming out of your own mouth and when it's recorded. Mm-hmm. Has something to do with the base of your voice that your brain recognizes versus what's recorded? I mean, to go to this idea of a coach and a team sport, I think people loosely understand that what you do is a team sport. But, you know, like a basketball is a team sport with four other people who do what you

do. Which, you know, it'd be like, I don't know if a golfer was also responsible for overseeing the manufacturing of their clubs and design of the golf. You're basically like the athlete and then the CEO of this organization of people who do integral parts. Their job is integral to you doing your job, but it's not at all the same as your job. You know, mechanics and all that, that must be a weird kind of leadership where nobody

is really on the same page as far as what they're, they're task in the larger task is. Yeah, yeah, I think there's, I got to that position, Ryan, because it's how I was successful. I've never considered myself to be the most talented race car driver. I've had moments where I like, man, that was awesome. I'm really proud of myself. But I've never sat back and said, the most talented race car driver ever. So through the course of my career where I started to find success came through being a good race car driver

who had great leadership abilities. And that meant being able to iterate, being able to recognize patterns and then effectively play ahead. Now, in a perfect system, I wouldn't have to do that. In a perfect system, there would be all these people around me that did that, and everything clicked and was miraculous, et cetera, et cetera. That's a lot easier said than done because recognizing again that the tools that are

limited for the team to work with with respect to recognition patterns onboard telemetry effectively, they don't have a lot of tools to analyze and they make a lot of great decisions and you can make a lot of great decisions with good info. But when you don't have the complete information, you're bound to make some bad ones too. Demand more of yourself in 2022. And one of the ways you can do that is by joining us in the Daily Stoic New Year New You Challenge. All you have to do is go to dailystoic.com slash challenge

to sign up. Remember Daily Stoic, life members get this challenge and all our challenges for free, but sign up seriously. Think about what one positive change, one good new habit is worth to you. Think about what could be possible if you handed yourself over to a little bit of a program. We all pushed ourselves together. That's what we're going to do in the challenge. I'm going to be doing it. I do the challenges. All all of them alongside everyone else. I'm looking forward to connecting with everyone in the discord challenge

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