The Daily Stoic - How To Survive In A World Of Assholes | Melinda Wenner Moyer

Episode Date: June 14, 2025

What does it take to stay good when the world feels like it’s falling apart? And how do we prepare the next generation to do the same? Science journalist and bestselling author Melinda Wenner Moyer joins Ryan to discuss what it means to hold onto empathy, curiosity, and integrity in an age of moral confusion. They discuss how to think critically in a world of misinformation, how to stay hopeful without becoming naïve, and how to not become an asshole in a world full of them. Melinda Wenner Moyer is an award-winning journalist whose work explores the intersection of science and everyday life. Her work deep dives into subjects that have both scientific and societal implications, addressing issues that are relevant to parents, families, and the general public. She is contributing editor at Scientific American magazine and a regular contributor — and former columnist at The New York Times. Melinda’s first book, How To Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes, was published in July 2021 and won a gold medal in the 2022 Living Now Book Awards. Her second book, Hello Cruel World!: Science-Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times, is out now! Follow Melinda on Instagram @ MelindaWMoyer and check out her substack, Now What?📚 Grab signed copies of both How To Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes and Hello Cruel World! at The Painted Porch 🎙️The Daily Dad Podcast | Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Emiotrophic lateral sclerosis, ALS. It's a terminal illness that progresses with devastating swiftness. It takes away the ability to walk, talk, eat, swallow, and eventually breathe. But ALS cannot take away hope for a brighter future. This June, join ALS Canada at the Walk to End ALS. Your participation and generous donations will fund community-based support and the best ALS research in the country. Find your local date, register, or donate

at walktomndals.ca. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of Sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America has at least one game of monopoly? Introducing the best idea yet a brand new podcast about the surprising origin stories of the products You're obsessed with listen to the best idea yet on the wonder app or wherever you get your podcasts Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom.

And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview St stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan.

Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I don't think it's that controversial to say that these are scary times, certainly destabilizing, disorienting times. We have technological disruption. We've got climate disasters, whether we're talking about fires or earthquakes or floods. We've also got obviously increased government incompetence to not just prepare for these things,

but handle them when they happen. We've got intense political division, polarization. We've got political dysfunction and gridlock. I mean, the entire legislative branch, whatever your politics, it's indisputable to say it is not working. This is why we've seen an activist judiciary on both sides of the aisle. This is why increasingly presidents have had to rely on executive orders. And then that's just the American situation. I mean, the world is dark. Terrible war that's ravaging the Middle East, the humanitarian crisis, which grows worse by the day. Again, a result of political dysfunction and radicalization and polarization and dehumanization.

Then we've got what's going on in Ukraine. We've got sort of trade wars. I mean, it's scary and people are just awful, aren't they? At the beginning of meditations, right? Book two, what does Marcus say? He says, the people you will meet with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly.

I mean, that's a bit of an understatement, right? They'll be, in some cases, evil and awful, and vindictive and violent and brutal and crass, right? There'll be all these other horrible things. Like the world, you pull up your phone, you pull up your email, you turn on the TV, you're not like, humanity is just doing amazing, right? If you were to say humanity is crushing it,

you would say humanity is crushing humanity, right? Inhumanity is everywhere. You feel that very deeply when you have kids, because you're like, this is the world I'm bringing my kids into. This is what they're going to be faced with. You read the road, and then you read the road when you have kids, and you're just like,

that's heavy, you know? All of which is to say, I was really struck. I was reading this book, Hello Cruel World, by Melinda Winter Moyer. It's called Science-Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times. If you have kids, you're raising, hopefully, terrific kids in terrifying times.

But this is a little excerpt from page four, which might surprise you as it surprised me. She said, That said, we are not gonna be able to solve all the difficult problems of the world before our children grow up. And we know that some things may keep getting worse before they get better,

including how we as a society treat each other. When author Ryan Holiday interviewed me for his podcast, The Daily Stoic about my book, How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes, which is a great book, we've got a bunch of copies in the painted porch, he essentially said, not raising assholes is important, but how are our kids going to deal

with a world full of assholes? How do we raise our children to deal with them and all the terrible things they do? Throughout their lives, not only will our kids have to manage all sorts of problems, but they will also cope with all sorts of people. What can we do to set them up to succeed? Right? And that is, I think, the essential question for kids and adults, as she says, like, we can be activists in our parenting by preparing our children for the seemingly impossible world they are going to inherit. So that they can not only handle it, but change it for the better. We can teach them the skills they will need to take care of themselves, fight for what they believe in, manage uncertainty, build healthy relationships and bridge divides. We can help them think of

themselves as part of a larger whole. We can show them how to set boundaries, care for others, and take responsibility for their actions." I mean, look, that is stoicism. That is what stoicism is about. That is what we are trying to do. So I just thought it was so funny. If you haven't listened to Melinda's first episode on the podcast, I think it's great. If you haven't read her book, How to Raise Kids Who Are Assholes, which again, I highly recommend, I think you will like this new book, Hello Cruel World, Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times.

I think you will like her substack, which is quite good. And I think you will like this interview. Look, I would say upfront, this is not an episode just for parents, but also coaches, leaders, as we're all trying to navigate a world that is dark, a world that is filled with assholes, as the ancient world was too.

To me, what stoicism is about is not letting the awfulness of the world make you awful, not letting them make you into a jerk. It was Funch who came out to the painted porch to do it. And as it happened, we had Hello, Cruel World, the first copies that she had seen, which is always a treat as an author. Melinda is an award-winning journalist who explores the intersection of science and everyday life. She does deep dives into subjects about the research, conventional wisdom, current events.

She is a contributing editor to Scientific American, a regular columnist at the New York Times. And this is her second book. It's great. We've got signed copies of How to Raise Kids Who Are Assholes and Hello Cruel World at The Painted Porch. You can follow her on Instagram at Melinda W. Moyer. Anyways, check out the book,

check out the interview and be well. And of course, if you don't listen to the Daily Dad podcast out the interview, and be well. And of course, if you don't listen to the Daily Dad podcast, I think you would like that. That's my parenting podcast. We do weekend deep dives, and then of course a daily meditation every single day. And then there's an email list too. Enjoy.

Well, I did not expect to be in the intro of this book. That was a surprise. Thank you for inspiring the book, Ryan. Is that really what happened? I mean, it was in my head already to maybe write a book about now and like, what is it like to raise kids now? How do we raise kids now?

But certainly when I had that conversation with you a few years ago, I mean, I think it was part of it. Yes. What is, I mean, the timeless reality of history is that assholes have always been with us and that it has always felt like the world is falling apart. Right.

It would be wonderful if we were all doing this in a bubble, but it's like, how do you raise good people or how do you yourself be a good person when it feels like everyone around you is basically going, it's not that important? Yeah. I agree that this is, you know, people have said, is this really that bad of a time? You know, kids have gone through harder times,

parents have gone through harder times. And I think that's true, but what we do know too, is that parent anxiety is actually really, really high right now. And it's higher than it has been in the past. So even if things aren't actually that terrible compared to how they've been in generations past, I think parents are more worried and that worry,

that anxiety, that stress is, we know just isn't good. When I wanna talk about parenting, but I just think this sort of timeless battle against the forces of assholery is like a major thing. I mean, like I feel like that's the main job in life is to make it through and not become like them. I use this line, I liked it, but it was like, you can't let the sons of bitches

turn you into a son of a bitch. Those forces are there always, but does feel like they're more empowered than ever. They are platformed more than ever. And how do you not let that affect you? And then also I think your job as a parent, of course, is to protect them from that as long as possible. But then this idea of like, how do you get out of life

not being slowly worn down by these forces and then you just go, wow, what the hell? I know, becoming a total cynic, hopeless. Yeah, I know. I wish I had the answer to that question. It's really hard. It's really hard. But I do think, I mean, again, everything, I relate. I wish I had the answer to that question. It's really hard. It's really hard. But I do think, I mean, again, everything,

I relate everything to parenting, but I do think being a parent forces you to really push against that even harder for your kids. Because you're like, I can't fall into this well of, dark well of cynicism for my children. I had Maggie Smith in here not that long ago. Yeah. And to me, that's what that poem Good Bones is about,

is like the forced exercise in real estate agent level optimism of like, no, I think it has a ton of potential, it's like, it's a fucking dump. But like there's something about being a parent that gives you a stake in future generations and a desire to preserve some hope. Like this is what the road is about also, you know, the idea of like just keeping the fire or whatever, not doing it. I remember my dad told me as a kid, I put this in the in the afterword of right

thing right now, but he said that that quote about like, if you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. And if you're not conservative, when you're young, you have no heart. And if you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain. And I don't actually think it's that political because it turns out that that expression, it dates back to like the 1870s. So it's not, this isn't like a Democrat Republican thing. This is like two orientations about the world. Mindset, yeah.

I laughed like you when I heard it the first time. And then as I've gotten older, I've just found that to be like the saddest fucking bit of conventional wisdom that you could imagine. Like the idea is you're just supposed to, as you go through the world, basically it's saying like, if you're not idealistic when you're young, you're awful.

But if you don't slowly jettison that idealism as you get older and become an asshole, like you're doing it wrong. And that's gotta be the wrong way to do it. Yeah, I would think so. That's not good for anybody. No, no, I mean, that's like, so what you're saying you should become more closed-minded,

more cynical, less empathetic. Less hopeful. Yeah, all the things you would not, if you're like, okay, this is the trajectory your kid is on, you'd be like, okay, this is the trajectory your kid is on, you'd be like, well, I failed, but we should do ourselves. There's something crazy about that. Yeah, it's so true though.

I mean, I just had dinner with my parents not too long ago and they were both like, we're really worried about your kids, like really, really, really worried. It's just a terrible world. Everything's terrible. My sister and I were like, we're trying to push back in our ways. Of course, also like there's just, my sister and I were like, we're trying to push back in our ways.

You know, of course, also, like, there's just, you know, my sister and I want to align ourselves like against my parents, like the traditional roles you fall into when you get back together, right? We're like, no, it's not that bad, but it is really bad. But it's not, but it's, our kids are going to be okay. I think it's going to be okay. And like, we just, a clear illustration of that, you know, phenomenon you're talking about.

When you're thinking about like how you raise kids that are not assholes, or you're thinking about. When you're thinking about how you raise kids that are not assholes, or you're thinking about what it means to be an asshole, sometimes it's helpful to sort of define what you don't want to end up as. Right, like Ron Lieber spoke about the opposite of spoiled. It's like, okay, we know what spoiled is, so we know, when you think about,

what are those sort of big bucket traits that you don't want to end up in and certainly wouldn't want your kids to end up with. How do you think about those? Yeah, well, God, there's so many, right? Apathy is one. What's the opposite of compassion, right? Like, just a...

Narcissism or...? Yeah, I mean, certainly, I don't know if that's the opposite, but that is also something I do not want my kids to be, because I want them to be anti-narcissism, right? You know, I think, yeah, there's something about just a lack of an inability to sort of consider others or put yourself in other people's shoes. So that's really important to me is my kids can think about other people and what they're going through and be compassionate and empathetic.

I think for me having a kid who is unable to try hard things, like a lack who is, you know, unable to try hard things, like a lack of resilience, that's to me, you know, people might not think of it as like a form of, you know, an aspect of assholery, but I kind of do. No, cause you're like, well, I can't do it, do it for me. Exactly. There's a selfish, you know, what do they call it? Weaponized incompetence.

Yeah, oh yeah. That's like, yours like, well, take care of me. There's a burdensomeness to it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's putting it all on somebody else to do the work. And I think about that a lot with my kids, because I also have a boy and a girl,

and my son is definitely much more of the like, will you do this for me? I don't really wanna do it. Whereas my daughter's like, I'll do it, I'll do it all. Sure, sure, sure. And I'm like, oh God. This is where it starts. Here it is already, yeah, exactly, 10 and 14. There's a lot of stuff.

There's like, you know, an unwillingness to listen. I don't want my, I want my kids to be really good listeners. Like I want them to be curious too, like that. I don't know whether you would consider that like a lack of curiosity as part of assholery, but I kind of do. Yeah, I mean, definitely, right? Like total indifference to things that you don't know about

or don't like or, yeah, of course. That's like, honestly, now that you're saying that, that's kind of a defining trait. Are there a lot of super curious jerks? Because actually, what's interesting about some of these traits is how fundamentally they get you outside yourself. So curiosity makes you not the center of attention, right?

Because it's fundamentally rooted in empathy and interest and there's a humility to it. And there's all these things that are just at odds with what we would, I think, define as being an asshole. Yeah. I also think a willingness to embrace uncertainty and that's related to curiosity is so important. Now, especially. I don't want my kids to think I have all the answers,

I know everything, I don't need to reconsider my opinions on things, I don't need to reconsider my beliefs. I want them to be open-minded and willing to admit openly when they really don't know for sure about something. I think that's super important. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the defining elements of like the worst of our discourse right now is this like, I know a lot about this thing that I've thought about

for two seconds that I'm not actually educated in. I'm gonna reduce or eliminate all the complexity in a 140 character tweet. You know, I'm going to label large groups of people or things as this or that, right? Like there is that uncertainty and nuance and even, you know what negative capability is? It's this concept from the poet Keats.

And he's talking about how like part of being an artist is just dealing with uncertainty and contradiction and complexity, just the mysticness of life, you know? There's a quote from Fitzgerald that sort of, I think, gets to what negative capability is, where it says the mark of a civilized mind is to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time,

which is interesting because you can see how it's a good thing. And then also when I think of the stupidest people that I know, often what they are doing is have multiple contradictory thoughts at the same time, right? These are mutually exclusive viewpoints that you're holding and you're not able to see that. But yeah, the ability to just sort of wrap your arms

around something complex and then also maybe the humility to be like, actually it's unwrappable, you know? That is obviously again, very different than simplicity and judgment and reductionism and all of that. Right, yeah. William Perry talked about stages of learning in this way where first kids are very black and white thinkers. It's like, it's either, you know,

definitely one way or definitely another way. Then he talks about this middle period, though, this middle stage that's kind of dangerous, where there's this awareness that there are a lot of different possibilities that truth is complex. And then they sort of say, well, maybe there's no truth. Maybe we should just stop even engaging and just not caring.

And so then you have to get them through that and to the next stage, which is what you're talking about, where you understand the complexity but you also understand that there's, you know a way to sort of still seek truth within that or try to. Yeah, no, it's funny. I was writing about that a lot. Yeah, there's Oliver Wendell Holmes

the Supreme court justice was saying there's sort of simplicity on this side of complexity and then simplicity on that side of complexity. And yeah, the ability to get there. It's like, no, no, no, I'm embracing the simplicity after years of careful study and consideration and all of these factors. And then, hey, this is more or less what it means.

That's very different than like, eh, you know, or whatever. Like sort of Twitter punditry discourse. Right, absolutely. I don't know, it's tough because obviously you try to model certain things, but then what do you do when it feels like, not just a lot of people are modeling it, but a lot of the mechanisms by which society sort of said,

here's what we do with people who do shitty things when that's breaking down. Like what do you do when clearly illegal, awful immoral behavior is like pardoned or when, like I get there's a reaction against cancel culture, but like there are things that society has to go, people who do those things, we don't lock them up forever, but like you don't get invited to parties anymore.

And that's one of the deterrents against doing things like that, right? Like, how do you teach your kids that there's consequences and how do you yourself operate in a society when people are undermining those consequences? When there are no consequences anymore. Yeah, and they're seeing that, I know. It's really, really hard because we know that kids are seeing this behavior and the lack

of consequences and learning from it. This is like social learning theory from the 60s. Kids look to the behavior of powerful people and what they can get away with and how terrible, how many rules are they breaking, and then they say, oh, well, that's what I should do to be powerful. That's OK to do. You know, it's a really, I mean, this is like a, this is the question that keeps me up at night.

Yeah. You know? No, like, this is like a little town. And the mayor here is like mostly a ceremonial position. But there's like some real power. And anyways, the mayor gets elected and then immediately has an affair with like the person running the tourism board.

And then like refuses to resign. Like there's an investigation like is part of the affair. Was there actual corruption? You know, like were they using tourism funds to, you know, fund their liaisons or whatever? And maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. He argues he's cleared in this investigation. But like you don't get to be the mayor of a small town, like when three months into your term,

you have an affair with another thing, right? Especially if you're, you know, like running on some sort of conservative or Republican platform. That's what I would think, right? Yeah. And obviously my kids aren't watching this, as they're a little younger.

But it's just like, what do you do when the sort of sense of shame or honor, remove, and this is a bipartisan issue, unfortunately, but like, what do you do when that sort of mechanism by which you go, hey, I screwed up, I'm humiliated, again, you don't have to move or, you know, we're not gonna put you in the stockade and throw fruit at you or whatever like they used to do.

But like you lost the moral legitimacy to be the chief executive of the town. That's just how life works. It should be, yeah. Right, and I think that's a real, like, we're all trying, I would say, regardless of our political persuasions, we're all trying to teach our kids that.

And then we're having trouble as a society acting as if adults need to model that behavior. And that's like so baffling to me. Yeah, and it seems like the definition of bad behavior is shifting because of it, right? Well, there's almost a moral inversion where like, oh, those bad people on that side that their people are casting out, let's embrace them.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's crazy. It makes it really, really, really hard to be a parent right now, yeah. What does, I mean, even though a person, because then you're like, how do you know where the line is? If the line is shifting.

Like, I would think that would be a line. You know what I mean? Like, you had this affair, you screwed up. Again, you shouldn't have done it, but you did do it. At one point it was probably illegal. It's not illegal, but you don't get to be this thing anymore. Like it's self-inflicted exile is what we're talking about. Yeah, no, right, it's just all accountability

seems to be gone and that's shifting so much. It's really hard. But I think that's weirdly one of the, that one's crazy, if people can hear it, it's started ringing super hard. I think that's kind of where you start the book. And where we have to start as people, which is like, at some level, you have to figure out not how you make that world different, but how do you accept that we live in a

fundamentally fallen, fucked up, crazy world? Like that the main skill is, is like, if the illogicalness and the outrageousness of it drives you insane, you're not going to make it. And if you allow it to corrupt, screw with your moral compass, you will end up also in a very bad spot. Welcome aboard VIA Rail. Please sit and enjoy. Please sit and stretch.

Steep. Flip. Or that. And enjoy. VIA Rail. Love the way. Every successful business starts with an idea. And on the best idea yet, we're obsessed with those light bulb moments.

Like how a bored barista invented the Frappuccino during his downtime, and then it got acquired by Starbucks. Or how Patagonia's iconic fleece was inspired by a toilet seat cover. On the best idea yet, we dive into the untold origin stories behind the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral. These are the wild ideas and insights that made Birkenstock the best selling sandals since Jesus. And made Super Mario the most played video game in the history of attention span.

Nintendo almost became a ramen company until Super Mario saved it. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Follow the best idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And if this podcast lasts longer than 45 minutes, call your doctor.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I do think a lot of it is about, I mean a lot of my book is about how do we help kids learn to navigate all of this messiness, this complexity, this uncertainty that is now in our world. And like what can we do to instill in them a moral compass if everything they're seeing around them, hopefully in their homes, they're getting what they, you know, that's the key, right?

But everything else is just, you know, impossible. Although maybe, like, if everyone behaved well all the time and most people were decent and more on our leaders never let us down, and we were all aligned culturally, you wouldn't need a moral compass because there would be a map everywhere. The whole idea of needing a moral compass is because the world is very disorienting

and there are temptations and distractions and false paths everywhere. You need a moral compass because you're going to have to find your own way. Yeah, that's very true. And then we hope that if we can help instill that compass in our kids, then maybe it will swing back a little bit, right? Yes. It will be a little less the way it is now. You obviously need it in

dark times more than ever. Yeah. And if they're not gonna get it from you who are they gonna get this from? Mm-hmm exactly. No I think that's true. I mean I think that makes what's happening the conversations we have with our kids now so much more important because we are we are the force that's able to give them this. Do you think that's a mistake we made culturally though? Like, I'm actually a big believer in separation of Christian states. So I don't like, you know, when they took God out of schools, like, I think it wasn't

supposed to be in there. But there was an element of education having a moral component that I think we lost. Obviously, as someone who writes about the classics, this is why they tell these stories, is they were designed to provide moral instruction. And I feel like at some point we shifted, certainly at the university level, but also every other level where the purpose of school

is to get them to remember the dates and places and names of history, not to take out the moral lessons from the historical figures. I think we could do more with more of that in school for sure. And I mean, we see it with the, you know, the war over social emotional learning programs that's just happened. And now schools aren't doing that. And I mean, that was when you look at the research on how those programs helped kids, they really did help kids with emotional regulation, with becoming more empathetic, becoming more

compassionate. There was less fighting. I mean, there's a lot of good stuff that came out of having that in school, but a lot of parents said, well, this should be stuff we're teaching at home. But I think it just isn't being taught at home. Exactly. It's a sneaky way of basically getting, yeah, it's like, I wanna teach my kids sex ed.

But they're not doing it. Yeah, they're not doing it, that's the whole point. That's the whole point. We are addressing a collective action problem. It would be great if we didn't have to have any of the edifices of government, right? But we do it because people, when left to their own devices, often don't do its thing.

And we're responding to specific problems. Right, right. Yes, no, I think those parents are more saying, let me not teach sex ed to my kids. Let it be something that we never talk about ever. Yeah, and we know that's not helpful. I say with media literacy, that's not being taught in school very much.

There's like a little bit, but it's woefully undertaught and it's such a crucial skill. And yeah, we have to do it at home. It's like, we bit, but it's woefully under-taught and it's such a crucial skill and yeah, we have to do it at home. It's like we're just adding to the pile of, and this is the thing, this is like the thing I hate most about, the hardest thing about my work is I want to help give solutions and help parents feel less stressed, but then it ultimately sometimes feels like, well, there's more and more and more and more we need to do if we want our kids to succeed and to be well. And so it's like, how do I balance, how do I give advice so that it is somewhat reassuring

and helpful and not feeling like more of a burden and more of a source of stress? Well, it's like, if they're not learning practical skills in school and they're not learning moral skills in school, they're learning trivia in school. Why am I sending them there for this large chunk of time if then I'm responsible as the parent for all the important instruction? So you're saying that I might as well just have them tutor them a couple hours a day in these reading and arithmetic, and then I have to spend the rest of the time taking them around the world

to teach them how to be a person in this world. Like, this is the point. Yeah, there's no way you can do all that, right? them how to be a person in this world. Like, this is the point. Yeah, there's no way you can do all that, right? And there's not enough time in the day. No. I know. My son is 14, and he's taking this biology class that is kind of kicking his butt.

And he's, I mean, the detail that he's learning in this biology class that he's never going to remember. And I studied biology. I love biology and very pro-biology. But I'm like, you don't need to know the mitosis, meiosis cycle. You don't need to know. Right, unless you're deciding to go in that direction, in which case we needed only a sort of cursory introduction

so that light switch will come on and then you'll specialize in that later. Yeah. Right, we sort of missed the forest for the trees. Again, these sort of dates and places and names. My son showed me this thing when they were like learning about like explorers and sort of global trade or whatever. And then I was like, do you know what like

the triangle trade was, you know, with like slaves and sugar and whatever. And then he was like, yeah, and he's like, kind of got it. But it's like the moral question of like sort of capitalism and sort of coercion and the sort of fundamental exploitativeness of that. That's the only part that's like, again, unless you're gonna be a scholar in this specific thing, the real lesson here is like,

why did people think this was an okay thing to do? And also, isn't it interesting that, you know, our country was such a critical part of this system that is so obvious in retrospect to be repugnant, you know? isn't it interesting that our country was such a critical part of this system that is so obvious in retrospect to be repugnant, you know? And it's like, that's the discussion that you wanna be having, but that discussion is inherently judgmental

and critical and somewhat revisionary. And a good chunk of parents have said like, it's not your place to make my kids feel that way. But that's exactly the place. Yeah. Like, that is the place of the school. That's the place of education is to get you to consider those kinds of questions. Right.

Those are the most important things. Yeah, I feel as though in so many ways, we've lost the big picture for the details, you know, and I think that's true in parenting. I think there's so much obsessiveness over grades and little things that feel so important to parents right now, checking off all the boxes of doing all the things that the other parents are doing and everything and totally missing the bigger picture of like, okay, what kinds of conversations

are you having about the complexities of the world? And those are the things that really make our kids who they're gonna be and help them shape their decision-making forever. My oldest is obsessed with gonna be and help them shape their decision making forever. My oldest is obsessed with the Odyssey and he has been for about two years. And so we've been talking a lot about it. Of course he is.

Well, it's funny because there's a thing in Seneca where Seneca is talking about whether the Odyssey is real or not. And even then he's like, these instructors are like, well, did it happen here? Did it happen here? Or, you know, what was this? And he's like, these instructors are like, well, did it happen here? Did it happen here? Or, you know, what was this? And he's like, it doesn't matter.

He's like, we're all Odysseus, sort of on our own journey and sort of being buffeted by these storms and tempted. And he's like, that's the point of the Odyssey. When my son was reading about it, and then he's like, do you think Homer was blind? And I was like, it doesn't fucking matter. That's not what this is about at all. And let's get into the sort of meaty questions.

And I think that that's the purpose of all these texts and all these stories and all these lessons is like what kind of person does this or that? Should you be that type of person? That's, we're supposed to see ourselves reflected in these characters and then take back lessons for what kind of society we wanna have and what kind of life we wanna live.

But that's hard to test, you know? And that's unwieldy, I imagine, for a teacher and for parents and maybe some parents agree or disagree with this interpretation. But like to be the kind of person who can consider those questions, that's what you're trying to raise. And that's how you get a kid who doesn't end up as an asshole,

is that they've thought about this and that they're not having to learn all these things by trial and error. But they're looking at the great stories and examples from history where like, we did this once and it didn't work well. Like, we have these rules because X, Y, or Z. Absolutely. No, all the teachers can just, they're just teaching to the standardized tests, right? I mean, that's the pressure they're under is, what can I do to make sure that my students do well on this so that we get funded and, you know, I can keep my job.

And that's, I really feel for them. Yeah, or they're not even able to get like the level of reading comprehension doesn't get them to those levels of texts. I mean, they're, they're hit on both sides. Why should we be listening to these old dead white guys? It's attacked on all ends, but there's a reason we have these stories in this to the test time. And I think you want to be as inclusive as possible and add in as many new different stories because everyone should see themselves in those stories. But if that's not what you're learning, what are you learning? Not the important things.

You've talked about that one of the places to do this stuff is like in the car. Which I totally agree with. And we've been listening to the audio books. We do those in the car. And then you have a captive audience, basically. Yes. And then they can ask questions or you can ask questions. And there's no eye contact.

I think that's really important. Why is that important? You know, for my son, if I'm looking at him, he just feels, I think, a lot of pressure on him, right? And he just feels like he's being assessed in some way or judged in some way, and it makes him uncomfortable. I mean, honestly, I get it, right? I'm the same way sometimes.

So I think it's just a little bit less pressure, and it feels a little less intense when we're talking about difficult things or uncomfortable things, awkward things. Like we often, we've talked a lot about sex and sex-related stuff in the car, and I think it is because he's also like, this is a little bit uncomfortable.

I'm aware that this is a topic that's like, I don't know if I should talk about this with my mom. And just not having to look at me when he's talking about it or asking questions makes a big difference. Yeah, it's also like, you're not having a conversation. You're listening to music or listening to an audio book or a podcast, and then it's been silent for 20 minutes.

And then some question that comes way out of left field, and then all of a sudden you're having a conversation. Do you know what I mean? There's something about that. Yeah, it's sort of organically arising. Why does, and you're like, whoa, okay. You've been noodling on this for a while, because we haven't talked about that before,

or that was 20 pages ago in the audio book, or like, I didn't notice that you picked up on that song lyric, but those are the best. I know, I love those too. As you say, they're like just sitting there, they're bored, and then all these things come into their head of things that they've been thinking about and then they bring it up with you. And I also think having an end point is helpful. Like if it's like a, you know, you're driving to soccer practice and you're going to talk about something intense, like your kid is

like, okay, I only have 10 minutes of this and then I get to leave. And I think that makes it easier for them and for you too. It's like, okay, this doesn't have to go on forever. Yeah, I dreaded nothing more than being summoned into the living room as a kid. Yes. And you're like, oh God, they've planned this. There's no escape. The chances of it ending well,

and not in some sort of punishment or lecture. Like you just knew you were cooked when they were like, hey, your mom and I want to talk to you. Yeah, it feels so formal and structured and scripted and terrifying. Yeah, it's just, no, those are the worst, I agree. But sometimes they have to happen too. Yeah, of course.

But I'm just saying the car is the opposite of that vibe. I also find right before they go to bed, it's like sometimes that's when they really want to talk. Because they don't want to go to bed, right? Yes, yes, they're motivated. Yeah, they're motivated to have a conversation and they're kind of doing it on their terms. This is something the psychologist Lisa D'Amour

talks about, like let your kids have the conversations on their terms because they have so little agency anyway, that if you can let them choose like the when and the where of a conversation, and that happens to be maybe the time you do not wanna have that conversation, but you let it happen, like that gives them this sense of power that can be really helpful. That's interesting.

Yeah, and then I'm like, well, no, you have to go to bed. And then it's like, why though? I know, yeah. Like you don't actually have to, I don't actually have anything to do. Like my day is done, but I've decided, even though I want nothing more than to talk to you and to have these conversations for some reason, because it's happening at a moment that I didn't choose, there's like a resistance.

Yeah. And you kind of have to get over that. I think you do. Yeah. When it's something that's like an opportunity for connection. Yes. Especially when your kids get older. I mean, my kids, it's like the opportunities for connection are like getting further and

further apart now that my kids have a teenager in between. Kind of got to like let it go and be like, okay, yeah. But I will say sometimes I don't want to have the conversation then. I just really don't, I'm tired and I don't want to hear about this right now, but I try to muster up the energy. My eight-year-old told me that he's a pre-teen.

A pre-teen? Yeah, and I was like, that's technically true. I don't want to hear this, but- I remember reading about what is a tween? Like what is the age, obviously it's like, nobody has a real definition, but I have heard eight is actually what some people consider a tween, so. Oh God.

Uh-huh. It's fascinating how. Welcome. It's fascinating how they'll like, lock on to like different forms of logic or definition. You know, like, and there's all these things as an adult that you just take for granted, you know, it's like, how much is a few?

Or like, what is several? You know? And then, you know, you asked me, I was like, I don't know, like a few or something. And then he's like, well, how many is it? Are you telling me it's gonna be a three or is it gonna be less than 12? You know, and it's like, okay, wow.

But you just realize as an adult, you've gotten comfortable with a certain ambiguity and they want specificity, right? You're saying later and they wanna know, yes, but exactly how many minutes later? And then you realize, oh, I was actually lying by saying I was using ambiguity to disorient you or mislead you and you are actually right to be like,

no, no, no, give me an answer. So you can, because technically everything is later. You know? Right, right. That is why this moral instruction is so important, right? Especially now, because they're looking for the definitions of the world. Like, what does it mean to be good?

What do we owe each other? What's fair? And so if you sort of, if you abdicate or avoid those topics because they're judgmental or complex or it's not the place for the school, like you're missing the window in which all these things kind of get locked in. I know, you gotta have them before.

It's almost too late, right? Yeah, and also if you're not going to church or you're not part of some sort of faith or cultural tradition where somebody else is doing that for you, then it's like even more important. I think there's something about, I guess I'd probably identify as like a more secular parent, but like if this sort of modern sort of progressive secular demographic isn't, you almost have to overcompensate for the moral instruction because it's not just, oh yeah, this is what we hear about every week at church

or at the synagogue or at the mosque. You have to do more work. You have to go more to the philosophical and the traditional and the sort of, even we're talking ASAP's fables, you have to inculcate these lessons because where else are they gonna hear them? And if you're just leaving it to

self-interests and incentives, I mean, you end up in a pretty fucked up world pretty quickly. Yeah, no, it's more imperative than ever that we have these kinds of conversations. But I think you can get a lot of content, like a lot of fodder for it from like the books that you're reading with your kids, that even the shows, I mean, I watched Ted Lasso with my son, and there's just so much in there to talk about the world and about morality and about ethics and, you know, and feelings and stuff. So like there are a lot of modern sources I think that we can draw from to just have the conversations. I think also more part of the ancient tradition, like we tend to think of philosophy as this

thing that you're instructed in. When, you know, what Plato was doing was walking around having conversations with people and answering questions. And like, there's this sort of back and forth dialogue to it. Like the Spartans, like everyone ate in these communal messes. And in the communal mess, you would like debate things and discuss things.

And so seeing it, like your job isn't to like read stories to your kids or have your kids read stories. It is to use these things as a jumping off point to analyze the moral questions and the judge criticized support defend the choices of these historical or literary characters. or literary character. Every big moment starts with a big dream. But what happens when that big dream turns out to be a big flop?

From Wondery and Atwill Media, I'm Misha Brown, and this is The Big Flop. Every week, comedians join me to chronicle the biggest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time, like Quibi. It's kind of like when you give yourself your own nickname and you try to get other people to do it. And the 2019 movie adaptation of Cats. Like, if I'm watching the dancing and I'm noticing the feet aren't touching the ground,

there's something wrong with the movie. Find out what happens when massive hype turns into major fiasco. Enjoy The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Get started with your free trial at Wondery.com slash plus. I hadn't thought about this sort of parallel maybe with stoicism in my book, but I talk a lot about asking kids questions. Like kind of the Socratic method, right? Why do you think they did that?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so that I think that's a really great way to start a conversation with a kid about anything because for so many reasons, I mean, you're kind of figure out where they are, what they think and how they feel. It gives you time to figure out what you want to say. But it's also like a little bit like the Socratic method, I guess, like really kind of drawing them to think about it and to come up with, like, I don't know, to communicate what they

think about it and what they're getting from something or what they perceive about something. Yeah, should they have done that? Why do you think they did that? Would you do that? Like, now they're both obsessed with Hamilton. Oh yeah. And so there's a lot of discussions about like, well, should he have shot his gun in the air? Well, first off, you know, duels are stupid, right?

Let's be like, this was stupid. They both should have stopped this, but you know, he's making this choice. Was it the right choice? You know, this sort of, the ethical and moral questions inherent in the art is what it's about. And then the ability to put yourself in the person's shoes, look at it in all these different,

that's what it's about. Yeah, absolutely. They used to call philosophy the great conversation, that the Western texts are the great conversation, which I think we sort of lost sight of because we think about it as now we call it the canon. You know? And like, there's actually a big distinction.

Do you call it the great conversation? You call it the canon. The canon says that these are like biblical definitive texts. Yeah, it's such a different framing. Right, but if you think of that as a conversation that's to be like debated and criticized and pushed back on, that's very different. Very different, and I much prefer that framing of it.

It makes me more interested in it than if I'm just, you know, told it's very different. Very different, and I much prefer that framing of it. It makes me more interested in it than if I'm just told it's a canon. Yeah. The big thing, obviously, the big distinction now is all these messy things are a lot less simple than YouTube videos, which they're all kids are obsessed with. And every once in a while you talk to a parent,

they're like, we don't do YouTube. And I go, okay, but the rest of us are. It's also tricky when it's like, look, if Mr. Rogers was trying to build certain moral questions and lessons into his work, I'm not sure Blippi is doing that, no offense. You know what I mean? Like there's a difference between seeing yourself

as part of a continuation of this tradition and then seeing yourself as serving the algorithm, which I unfortunately think most creators are doing. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, there's not a lot of thought-provoking content out there on YouTube. But then that's yet another reason why we have to be facilitating these conversations at home, right?

How do you think about that? How do I think about having the conversations? Yeah, well, how do you do it? I mean, I'm sure, unless you're like, no, our kids have never touched a smartphone. Oh, God, no. Yeah, no, my son has a phone. My daughter doesn't have one yet, but she's on,

she's got an iPad, right? Yeah, I mean, a lot of times they bring it to me with, oh, I saw this thing on YouTube and I learned this thing. And usually I am instantly skeptical of whatever it is that they heard or learned for good reason, right? And I try to, but I try to like hold back on the like, well, where'd you hear this? This doesn't sound right. Like, you know, what's your source?

Like, you know, I try to, I try to ease up on the judgmental-ness initially and say, that's interesting. You know, I usually start with like, that's interesting, huh? Like where did you, where'd you hear that? Or where'd you learn that? And then they say, and I say, okay, well, I start with, like, that's interesting, huh? Like, where did you hear that? Or where did you learn that? And then they say, and I say, OK, well, I'm really, like, it's really about, for me, getting them curious, more curious, right, about it.

So you heard this thing, or you saw this thing, or you learned this thing. Let's think about, like, where did you get the information? Can we trust that that person or that source of information is something that would want to give you accurate information and would be able to give you accurate information? Could they have an agenda? Could they want you to think a certain way about this instead?

So it's a lot of just gentle nudges of, could it be different from what you think it is? And how do we know? And how certain can we be? There's a woman that I interviewed and she had this great way of helping kids consider their sense of certainty about something, which is like on a scale of 1 to 100,

how sure are you that this is true? And she said, the great thing is most kids won't say like 100% I'm 100% sure, but they might say like 90%, even if it is something that's not true. But you can then say, OK, so what is it that gives you that 10% feeling that maybe it's not true? And get in that way, and it gives them the chance

to reflect on why they might not be totally certain, and what could they do to feel more certain. I'm also a big fan of jumping on Google with kids. Yes, I've been thinking about that too. So what they're coming to you with is an expression of interest in something that they weren't interested in before. That they didn't even know existed.

And then how do you show them how to fall down that rabbit hole? You know, like, oh, okay, you like Hamilton, so well, here's like a biography we could listen to. You know, we're going to New York City. You know, he's buried there. Like, how do you take the sort of flicker of interest or attention and sort of fan it into a thing?

Because they don't fully understand or have the skills yet to do it. But you're teaching them those skills in the process of going like, let me indulge your fascination in this thing by showing you the endless amounts of ways you can continue to learn about it. It's like, you know, it's like, oh, you like this musical?

You know, there's like parodies of this musical. Like, so now we're learning about like satire and now you're learning what satire and live is. Like, how do you, how do you sort of take this thing and go, let me show you the meta skill of like getting to the bottom of this thing that you're interested in, which is travel, which is travel, which is reading, which is asking questions,

you know, it's all of that. Yeah, I mean, it's great. I think when a kid comes to you with some kind of interest, that is just such an opportunity for you to just keep that planted in your head and think about all the peripheral things around it, right? What can we use this as a springboard to talk about

or to investigate or to learn about or to do? And for me, it's just like kind of trying to keep that somewhere in my brain, among the 8 million other things that are in my brain. And when something pops up that could be relevant in some way, like, can I tie that to Hamilton? Can I? Or, you know, there's this thing going on in the world right now. Like, is there a parallel where I could say, hey, there's, you know, Trump just did this thing and I thought it was really interesting, kind of relates to what happened to him, you know, there's this thing going on in the world right now. Like, is there a parallel where I could say, hey, there's, you know, Trump just did this thing and I thought it was really interesting, kind of relates to what happened to him, you know, or whatever it is to make these

just try to find ways to make connections because that's the way to like hook them in. Like, oh, it's like Hamilton, really? Yeah. OK, I want to actually want to hear about this. Totally. I try to like when I read like when I'm on the New York Times app, whenever I see an article that like intersects with something they're vaguely interested in, I save it, and then we listen to it in the car, right? Because you could just do it over audio. So it's like using the car thing we're talking about,

and then using like, oh, you like capybaras. Here's an article about how they're trying to control the population of capybaras in this neighborhood in Brazil, where all these rich people live. That's like overrun with capybaras. And so, you know, we're listening to this article. And then it's like, first off, you're probably learning that Argentina even exists for the first time. And then, you know, how does that connect to,

I don't know, wild hog populations where we live, you know, and you're just, and then it's like the main thing you're getting across, which is like, as I go through my day, I'm thinking about you and things you're interested in, and here's me connecting back to your thing. Yes, right, and it just also just illustrates to your kid that they are a priority that they sort of live

in your brain in your day. Yes, yes. And that is a form of connection that you're making with your kid by showing them that, right? And that's really powerful. The other thing I will mention too is I, we got the weak junior for our kids starting a few years ago. Oh, what's that? And that's really powerful. The other thing I will mention too is I, we got the Week Junior for our kids

starting a few years ago. Oh, what's that? It is, the Week Magazine has a magazine that's for kids. And my daughter reads it cover to cover every week. She loves it. She wants to vote, they has all these like, vote on whether you prefer this thing or this thing. And it's usually something related to current events

or some kind of issue that's in the news. But she reads a cover to cover and then she wants to talk about so much. She wants to show off what she's learned. So she'll bring it up at dinner like, guess what I learned? And I think there was something about Cappy Bars, which is why I'm, it made me think of it. And then, you know, and it's usually some random thing about like bears somewhere, you know, but then that's like, okay, that becomes like a seed for, okay, what could this relate to that I could then talk about and bring in that's, you know, but then that's like, okay, that becomes like a seed for, okay, what could this relate to that I could then talk about and bring in that's, you know, maybe a little more relevant to something I want to teach them or something I want them to think about.

So that has been a really interesting source of conversations about different things. Well, that's a muscle, like figuring stuff out is a muscle, being an informed person is kind of a muscle, And you have to develop that. And it's not just enough, I think, to model it. It has to be, you learn it by doing it over and over again. And so like, you have to help them do it a bunch of times. And then it becomes a thing that is operating under its own power that they hear about something or their older brother or kid at school mentioned something. and then they're like, I know how to inform myself about this thing.

Yeah, no, but it does take a lot of practice and they're gonna mess up a lot along the way. Well, I mean, adults are bad at it. Yeah. Like how many people go, I do my own research. And it's like, you don't apparently know what research is. Right. You think watching the YouTube video is research.

You don't know how this, no one taught you. And so your intentions are actually in a good place. Like, your intentions are right here, which is like, something didn't add up to you, or you're suspicious about something, or something happened to you, and you want to figure it out. And then you're, you actually don't have the media literacy or the intellectual sort of toolkit

to really figure it out. And that's what's making you a mark for con men, grifters, demagogues, et cetera. Yeah, but it is a really hard skill, some of it. I mean, really, I remember learning about the Stanford Education Group did a bunch of research on media literacy and among adults too.

And they found that, so I'm a journalist, so journalism fact checkers are very, very good at determining the credibility of sources. But they also had historians, like academic historians trying to do it. And they would mess it up a lot. So I mean, this is not a skill that it doesn't mean you're stupid because you can't figure out like whether a source is credible. It's not easy for even very well-educated people sometimes. So yeah, it's a tricky world.

No, no, it's super hard. And I think that's part of the idea of where it's idealistic when you're young, cynical when you're older. It's like, I think part of that is you stop being curious. You stop being open. You lose some of the ability to deal with the complexity of the world.

And so you sort of reduce into that wrong kind of simplicity. And so, yeah, it's like, in a way, it's the most important skill that you have to have because it's kind of this meta-skill. Like, how do you figure it? How do you make sense of what's happening around you? And if you lose that energy or that ability to do it, you're like, well, I saw on TV last night, you know?

And it's like, we shouldn't have been watching that. And then also you should know better by now, but you don't know that because we all sort of fall into these patterns or these traps. Like it used to be that was a way you could find out about things in the world, but it's not anymore, you know? And so that's hard. Yeah, one thing I do a lot,

and part of it is because I have to, because my kids ask me questions, and often I just don't know. And I want to act like I know, like I want to be like, oh, well, I'm pretty sure it's this, but I force myself to say, I don't know, for sure.

I don't know. And like really make it clear to them that it's okay, to not know, and to say you don't know. And then to it clear to them that it's okay You're not know and to say you don't know and then to say and then you know Then I use that as a springboard for like should we figure this out together? Let's do some research I mean and it happens all the time with things that I probably should know, you know They asked me things about current events and I'm like, you know, I think I know the answer But I'm actually not sure so I don't want to say yes Well, and then you'll you'll get actually pushback from your kids about this

They're like no I need the answer now, or they'll be mad at you. They'll think you're not answering because you don't want to answer. And you want to actually sit with the, like, okay, now I have a five-year old who's yelling at me because I'm not explaining a contradiction that doesn't make sense to me either. So it takes a certain amount of discipline and almost like sense of self to not let yourself be bullied into giving what's easier to do as a parent, which is like, well, because this or, you know, what I like to go, yeah, I don't know, like, you're gonna have to figure this out. And I'm driving right now, so we can't do that.

Right. Right. But we'll figure it out because it doesn't, you're right. That's weird. I don't understand. Right. No, it is the harder path sometimes. And I mean, there was a study that I mentioned in my book

and it still like explodes my brain. I was at a conference when the researchers were presenting the findings, but they found, so they, this was with adults, and they found that adults were less trusting of people who did not express a strong opinion on a topic, like on a polarizing topic. So, you know, they said, how much do you trust this person who said,

I believe X is right, versus somebody who said, you know, I actually don't, I don't have a fully formed opinion on it yet. I don't want to share it, you know, I'm not certain. And they always, even when the opinion that the other person had was the opposite of what they believed, they still found that that person was more, they still thought that person was more trustworthy than the person who did not express a strong opinion. And so it just, you know, it illustrates like,

our discomfort with uncertainty with people not... Well, we think they're being evasive, or noncommittal. And really, they're, they are being noncommittal,. And really, they are being non-committal, but it's because they don't want to commit to something they don't know. Exactly. And yeah, I think especially if you're a kid and there's something about, again, what is later?

Tell me how many minutes this is. And it's like, I actually can't answer that because I don't know how long it's going to take to get from here to there, and then I don't know what... And so there is something about this childlike need for certainty that is inherently antagonistic between children and parents. And as a parent, you have to accept that,

as opposed to trying to make it go away because it makes your life easier. Right, yeah, kids really want a sense of control, like a sense of agency. And this was always fascinating to me when I talked to psychologists about like, why are kids like this? Why do they need to know all the details,

and they want to know all the details, and they want that certainty? And it's like because they feel totally out of control, which they are, right? Everybody else is deciding everything for them, and they don't get to make a lot of choices. And so one way in which they regain a sense of control is by having this sense of knowledge of what's to come.

And they feel just much more safe if they know what's coming. And then if they don't know, it's like the anxiety sets in. And I always thought that was a helpful framing for it because I always got very annoyed by it. I'm like, why is my kid being like this? Why are they so not chill? And then I was like, ah, right, this is anxiety. And this is their way of feeling safe, is having information.

Well, I was flying somewhere a couple months ago and it was like, the plane was delayed, but they weren't saying why. And then they were like, oh, it'll be 30 minutes and then we'll update you. And then 30 minutes, they were clearly just planning on telling us it would be another 30 minutes. And this went on and on.

And then it wasn't clear like, hey, is it a crew issue? Is it a plane issue? Is it a weather issue? And is it kind of all the above? And it was clearly not adding up, but also incredibly inconvenient, also just frustrating because I was trying to get somewhere. And it sort of struck me that like,

this is what being a kid is like. Yeah. You know, like I have no control. The adults are clearly not being straight with me. There's obviously something happening here that they feel that I'm not qualified or deserving of knowing. And it's preventing me from doing what I would like to do.

And there's also just anxiety and weirdness. It's like, oh, I do this to my kid all the time. I can't change this because that is a part of life. And obviously at some level, kids going to have to deal with that. But also I could just be a little better at going, if this is causing me to stress as an adult, you know, I imagine me going like, I will get there when we get there or like not clearly my wife and I are talking about something, but we're not telling them, hey, this is what's happening. It's stressful and it's not necessary and it can be resolved. And you're like, oh,

just actually thinking about what it's like to be a person who's this tall, who can't see over things and nobody's straight with them. You realize like, oh, this is why they're the way that they are. It's actually a rational response to a deranged world

that they live in. Absolutely, yeah. I find that trick so helpful sometimes, like think about like, what is it like to be a kid right now? Or just ever, like, you know. They don't have much control, they don't know what's going on.

I mean, I think this is why the pandemic was so hard for everybody. There was so much uncertainty, nobody knew what was true, what wasn't true. And just feel that feeling of being out of control is so hard. And that's what kids feel every day. Well, I'm just like in my late 30s,

starting to understand certain feelings that I have. Oh, this is me when I'm anxious. This is me when I'm depressed. This is me when I'm hungry. And it's like, obviously these are not new feelings, but it's taken me three plus decades to begin to even understand and recognize those patterns. What is it like when you are feeling anxiety and you don't know what anxiety is?

Right? Or what is it like when people around you are clearly anxious, but you clearly don't know what anxiety is? All you're sensing is that something is not right. Yeah, right. It's so much harder to make sense of when you don't understand feelings. And well, this is why I always talk about feelings with kids from a young age, because it does help. My daughter is so much more emotionally literate

than I was at her age. And she can identify, I'm feeling this very specific emotion, and I know that I need to squeeze something and that makes me feel better. And I'm like, God, I wish I just had no idea. I didn't know I had social anxiety until I was like 40. And then my therapist was like,

you know, that's what you have. And I was like, wait, that's what I have? I mean, yeah, there's something freeing to and understanding like what your feelings do and why you feel the way and then knowing what helps you. And you can do that starting at a young age with kids, but it takes a while. Well, then seeing it in them, right? So you're like, okay, they're acting this way because they skipped a nap or they're acting this way because they're tired or hungry. It was

only like, I would say like within the last couple months, I was like, oh, I'm acting this way because I'm hungry. Like they're being this way because they're hungry. Yeah. And then it was like, oh, wait, we both didn't eat. Like why am I having trouble dealing with you being the way you are because you're hungry? It's because I am also hungry. Yes. And this is like dual forces smashing together.

Like, and that's creating the thunder. It is like, you're this way. And then my tolerance for it is diminished. And then understanding that that's what's happening. And then you go, it is diminished. And then understanding that that's what's happening. And then you go, this is not the only interactions I have in my life that are defined by this dynamic. You know, like this person in front of me

is acting this way because of what's going on in their life. And I'm having trouble tolerating it because of what's going on in my life. That's what's here. They're not a monster. I'm not an asshole. Like this is what's happening. And so it seems like at I'm not an asshole. This is what's happening. And so it seems like at the core of

how do you not be an asshole, it's empathy and then empathy for the self. So awareness and self-awareness. These are the sort of essential traits to interacting and engaging with people in a non self-absorbed, ignorant way. Yeah, yeah, my first chapter is self-compassion. It's like parents, you need to develop it

and then you should help your kids develop because it is so powerful. I was laughing at what you were saying, by the way, because I get so many Instagram reels now that are basically like, I am going through perimenopause at the same time that my daughter's going through puberty and these two forces coming together,

it's just like, poof. And so yeah, but I do have more empathy for her. And when she's going through some kind of rage, because I'm like, oh yeah, I was there yesterday. I get it. And it's really hard to control. I mean, you can't. So yeah.

Well, going like, hey, there are forces acting on you. There are forces acting on me. That's what this is. It's interesting how quickly, as a parent, you're like, oh, they're like this That's what this is. It's interesting how quickly as a parent you're like, oh, they're like this, they skipped their naps, gonna be crazy or they ate sugar, they're gonna be crazy. But then we're like, this only affects children. Right.

You know, like as if everything that everyone is doing is not largely explained by the environmental or contextual factors that led up to it. And then we're quick to either write someone off or we're quick to assume something about them and then also act as if we're not engaged in this dynamic ourselves with our own reasons. Absolutely.

I talk a lot about theory of mind in both of my books, which is like such a core, and I mind in both of my books, which is like such a core, and I'd never heard of it until I started writing my first book. And, you know, it's essentially the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and to know, well, it's like knowing that other people can have different feelings and thoughts from you, but it's also like a precursor to being able to consider somebody else's situation and what they might be feeling and how it might be affecting them. And it's like such a key skill for so much.

I mean, for empathy, for compassion, for generous behavior, helpful behavior, it's like, it's necessary for so much goodness in the world. It's funny, we went swimming yesterday, there's this place called the Blue Hole in Georgetown. We went up there and we were like swimming in this sort of like lake pond thing. And we look over and there's people

who are sitting too close to our stuff, like it was weird, I don't know what they were doing. They're sitting too close to our stuff. And I look up and this guy's like drying himself off with this towel. I go, oh, look at my head. I go, oh, he has a blue and white towel also. And then I realized this guy is drying off with our towel. Right. And so my kids don't notice any of this, they're, you know, being kids. And then, so we sort of get over there and then my son goes to like use the towel. And the guy at some point realizes that he's done this and can't go like, oh shit. You know, he just like, I watch him like,

just throw it back on our stuff. Like, he doesn't even, he doesn't even pretend, but then he kind of scurries off, right? Yeah. And I was just like, obviously he's mortified and it's weird. And there's no like, what do you say? You know, what do you do? And so we go over there and my son goes, you know,

like to get the towel. No, you can't touch the towel. And I'm like, come over here. And so we kind of walk out of earshot of these people and I'm like explaining what happened. I was like, this is not a conversation we need to have with him or he has that like, I have an extra one, this is fine. But like, let's just not make a thing about it

for his sake and our sake. You know, I was like, just imagine you did this. How weird you would feel. And there's no, you know, like, let's just skip the interaction entirely. And they kind of got it. And then also thought it was so funny, you know, because it was weird.

But like, I've been trying to take encounters like that and go, what do you think is going through that person's head? Yeah. And I bet in like, if I was 20, I would have had a stupid confrontation with this person. Like I would have wanted some explanation or a, and now I'm like, I'm with my kids,

I don't have time for this. Like the worst case scenario, I'll just throw this towel away. Like, what do I care? You know, but just taking the kids, I don't have time for this. The worst case scenario, I'll just throw this towel away. What do I care? But just taking the opportunity, I think, to walk your kids through, what do you think that person is thinking and why did that make sense to them? And then hopefully you can build on,

well, do we need to confront them about this thing? But that's the work of theory of mind. It's a muscle that you have to develop because it's easier to default to what you're thinking. Right, yeah, no, it's absolutely a muscle, but it can be built through these kinds of conversations. And yeah, I had a similar, very awkward experience a couple, I was like two weeks ago,

where I'd hired a dog sitter to come in my house and look after the dog while I was gone for a night and my kids were at sleepovers at gone for a night. And my kids were at sleepovers at other people's houses. And we came back and I told her, I was going to be back at like 7 p.m. She said, okay, I'm going to leave around 2 p.m. Come back. The lights are all off in the house, but there's a truck in the driveway. And I was like, I wonder if that's the dog sitter, but the lights are all off. I don't know. And I come in with my son. My daughter's like scared. She's like, what if somebody's in the house? I'm going

to stay in the car. My son's like, I'll come in with my son. My daughter's like scared. She's like, I don't know what if somebody's in the house. I'm going to stay in the car. My son's like, I'll come in with you, mom. We go through the house. My dog is there. He's like losing his mind. He's like chewed up a bunch of stuff. And I'm like, where are somebody here? Go through the whole house, like calling, I'm calling out, hello. Hello. I'm home. And finally find her in my bed naked. And I couldn't wake her up for the longest time. And I was really actually, I was like, what if she's dead? She's on drugs. Like, I don't know what's going on. Finally, she wakes up

and she's so out of it. And then she's so mortified. She's like, oh God, she's like, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, okay, it's okay. Why don't you get yourself together? Like, get your stuff together. Cause her stuff was all over my house too. And I was like, get your stuff together, take a few minutes and then we'll say goodbye. And when she does come find me, she's like crying. She's so embarrassed. She's so mortified. And I was so uncomfortable and I'm like,

why did this have to happen? My kids had to see this, this is not cool. But then I'm also like, oh, this poor woman is so upset. And so I was using it to talk to my kids later about, so this wasn't the most professional thing that happened, but I can understand accidentally falling asleep in someone's bed. I don't know how it happened.

And then imagine how upset and embarrassed and horrified she was. And she was crying and I was trying to make her feel better while also saying, okay, you can go now. Anyway, it was definitely an opportunity for helping my kids see the multiple perspectives in a situation of like, it's okay for me to be a little annoyed and uncomfortable with this,

while also recognizing that she probably feels a lot more uncomfortable than I do. That goes to the idea of coping, which you have in the book, which is like, also, people are nuts, and they do crazy stuff. And at some level, if you need an explanation for this, or if you need to get to the bottom of it, it's a fool's errand, you know?

Like just like the people do insane things. They believe insane things. Like sometimes all you can do is laugh at this stuff and be like, I can't believe this happened to us. And let's make this like a thing that we have, you know? But let's spare the person most of it, you know? I had drove my son on this field trip and like it was struck me like, cause he's been like not wanting to be in a booster seat.

And then he just got out of it. But like one of the kids on the field trip was in a booster. Like, and she kept being like, do I have to? And, you know, and I'm like, look, I don't make the rules. It says it on this piece of paper, you have to do it. And she's like, well, I'm gonna call my dad on my Apple watch and he says it. I was like, look, the school said you have to be in a booster.

I'm not questioned, but I pointed out to her and then later I was like, I don't know if you noticed, but nobody in the car cares at all that you were in this booster. Like no one has brought this up except you over and over and over again. Like we, everyone would be talking about something else, you know, but you, because it feels big to you,

you are projecting that it feels big to everyone else. And then afterwards it was like, like basically life is like this all the time. Which is that the thing you are thinking about, you confuse everyone else for thinking about it, but everyone else is thinking about their own stuff. And if you shut up about it, they will almost certainly move on.

But it was funny watching her make this thing into a thing. And then it's like, well, and some of them I'm glad it happened because the earlier you can learn that lesson, it will make high school less shitty for you. That's true. So did she seem to kind of get it? I think he did kind of get it and also thought that,

I think he grasped the funniness of like, oh yeah, like she didn't want anyone to notice and she made everyone notice. You know, the sort of self-defeating thing that we all do. And then it's like, but you do that. Like I've said, it's like, you don't want something to happen and then you end up making that happen.

You know, like you don't want your iPad to be taken away and then you throw such a fit about it that it gets taken away, you know? And I was like, and by the way, I do that. Like I don't want things to go a certain way and then I make them, This is like what we do. Yeah, it's part of the human condition. So did you find out why she was naked in your bed?

No, well, you know, I was trying to sort of figure out did she seem like she was on something when she finally came out. She didn't seem like she was. She said later that she, that a family friend had recently passed. So I'll take that at face, I mean, so I don't know. I did also-

That's why your clothes are off. Yeah, exactly. I did also find her phone under my vanity, like way under it the next morning, along with some of her clothes. And that was very confusing. So then I had to figure out how to reach her to tell her that her phone was in my house.

Right. There was obviously another person there at some earlier juncture, yeah? I guess so. I was also like looking through the trash, trying to figure out like how many, you know, how many food containers are there. And it did kind of seem like maybe she was the only one,

but I don't understand how my phone got like shoved under, you know, a bathroom vanity. Like, how does that, and then you don't pick it up. Like you just leave it there? I really don't know. It's gonna be one of those mysteries. It's gonna linger. Sometimes it's just really like, just leave it there? I really don't know. It's gonna be one of those mysteries that's gonna linger. Sometimes you just really like,

I think it's hard to be a person. It's really hard to be a person. I just been thinking about this a lot recently. Like, it's hard to be a person and it's super hard to be a person in the modern world. Like just think about like how much you have, like we go, oh, in the past, like people used to know how to do things.

I was like, sure, they could build stuff or whatever. They had more survival skills. But just think about the amount of things that we have to keep track of and know how to do. Even like, I think even like, this isn't like a political correctness argument, but just think about the things you have to be sensitive to that your grandparents could just like,

just didn't give a shit that these slurs hurt other people's feelings, right? Like there's just a level of like cognitive load on being a person. Yes. And then just, let's think about how hard it is to pay for things and to survive. Like, you know, like society is not fair

and it is rigged in a lot. Like it's fucking hard to be a person. And I just feel like, yeah, it would be hard to have to deliver food for people. And here I am like indignant that like the food was spilled. Or you know what, like, I like, it's just, it sucks to be this, you know? And then it's hard to like, you just go,

this person is having a hard time being a person because it is hard to be a person. And then if you add on top of it, you're the kind of person that goes like, yeah, I should take off all my clothes in somebody else's house. Like if there's any scenario in which that's like a reasonable set, right? Then you go, oh, it's probably harder specifically to be you. Yeah.

She's clearly going through something or just like... Even if nobody died, she has to be that person. Yeah. It looks really hard. It's really hard. And not managing it well, clearly. No, right, right. So I have some empathy for her.

Yeah, and it's fucking hard. I mean, no one is having it harder than being a kid because you're growing, all this stuff. It's fucking hard. Hormones, my God. There's so many hormones now with my kids, yeah, and me. So yeah, it's hard to be a kid in my house. Well, you wanna go check out some books?

I would love to. All right. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode. If you like the daily stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, would you tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey on Wondery.com slash survey.