The Daily Stoic - Josh Peck on Sobriety and Self-Improvement | You Have Been Misled

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

Ryan reads today’s daily meditation and talks to Josh Peck about his new book “Happy People Are Annoying” (which you can pick up at The Painted Porch), his journey from being a child actor to getting sober at 21, the power of breaking the cycle of generational trauma, and more.🎓 Sign up for Stoicism 101: Ancient Philosophy For Your Actual Life - https://dailystoic.com/101Josh Peck is an American actor, comedian, and YouTuber. Josh began his career as a child actor in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Peck rose to prominence for his role as Josh Nichols alongside Drake Bell's character in the Nickelodeon sitcom Drake & Josh. His new book, which was released just yesterday, “Happy People Are Annoying,” is a humorous and candid memoir reflecting on the stumbles and silver linings of his life—including early struggles with food, drugs, self-esteem, and self-sabotage—and traces a zigzagging path to redemption.Links: Daxflame interviews Josh Peck | Curious with Josh Peck: Ep. 32 | Ryan Holiday  Try Surfshark risk-free with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Get Surfshark VPN at surfshark.deals/STOIC. Enter promo code STOIC for 83 % off and three extra months free!The Jordan Harbinger Show is one of the most interesting podcasts on the web, with guests like Kobe Bryant, Mark Manson, Eric Schmidt, and more. Listen to one of Ryan's episodes right now (1, 2), and subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger Show today.DECKED truck bed tool boxes and cargo van storage systems revolutionize organization with a heavy-duty in-vehicle storage system featuring slide out toolboxes. DECKED makes organizing, accessing, protecting, and securing everything you need so much easier. Get your DECKED Drawer System at Decked.com/STOIC and get free shipping.KiwiCo is a subscription service that delivers everything your kids will need to make, create and play. Get 50% off your first month plus FREE shipping on ANY crate line with code STOIC at kiwico.com.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookFollow Josh Peck: Homepage, Instagram, Twitter, YouTubeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each weekday we bring you a Meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace in wisdom in their actual lives. But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

Hi I'm David Brown, the host of Wonderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. You have been misled. For hundreds of years the word stoic has been thought to me in emotionlessness. As a result most people assume that stoicism then is a philosophy built around this kind of unfeeling, this an unflinching endurance of pain and indifference to any in all pleasures. It's a strange perception given you note not just the actual writings of the Stelkes,

but their actual lives, which were a direct contradiction of this stereotype, of the few stories about Marcus Aurelius that survived three involved him crying, in addition to the heartfelt letters that he wrote to his friend, Seneca's favorite genre of writing was known as the consolation, and no one can pick up these essays on grief, one to his mother, no less, and think that he was emotionless. Cato clearly loved his son and his daughter, and was noted for weeping over the loss of his brother, and his passionate objection to tyrants and bullies his whole life.

The Stoics were far from emotionless. They were people who loved, who grieved, who cried, who were scared, who sacrificed, who cared about their neighbors, who raised children, who bled and died for change, who strove, who lived. And if I have one overarching goal here at Daily Stoic, it gets to restore this vibrant action oriented and paradigm shift in way of living to its rightful place as a tool in the pursuit of self mastery and perseverance and wisdom, something that you actually use

to live a good life, which is the purpose of this course we've been working on. Stoicism 101, ancient philosophy for your actual life. Stoicism 101, Ancient Philosophy for Your Actual Life. Stoicism 101 has become our most popular course at Daily Stoke, and we're reopening the registration here in 2022. There's a live cohort that's officially open. Stoicism 101, Ancient Philosophy for Your Actual Life

is a 14-day course dedicated to teaching you what Stoicism is really about, crushing this stereotype of lowercase stoicism and helping equip you with the tools to live a vibrant and expansive life like all the great stoics we've talked about. Whether you're new to stoicism or you've been studying it for years, learning as Marcus really has responded to a friend who asked why he was still attending philosophy classes is always a good thing. And as some of the participants in Stoicism 101 told us,

I discovered Stoicism five or six years ago and it completely changed my life. And Stoicism has helped me as much as anything, but this course took my understanding to the next level. Another said they'd only just started reading my books, but now they have a word for their lifelong philosophy in seeing the world. Stoicism. And someone else who said, if you're new to Stoicism, you are in for quite a life change. So in 14 custom emails delivered every day, that's 20,000 words of exclusive content, you'll learn about who the famous Stoics were.

The things a Stoic does, things a Stoic doesn't do. What sets Stoicism apart from other philosophies, the key components of Astoeic's ideal day, the Stoic's secrets to success, the Stoic's secret to resilience, and the Stoic's secret to productivity, and a lot more. There's also going to be three live video sessions with me. We call them office hours. Obviously, I know a thing or two about St stoicism, or you wouldn't be listening here. You're going to be getting the kinds of insights about age philosophy and getting to have me answer questions like I've done for the NBA and the NFL, people in the military,

people in business, people in politics, and we're going to get to talk like this was a university class. Basically, for far less than the tuition to even one philosophy course, and even a community college to say nothing of the overpriced Ivy League these days, you get as part of Stoicism 101 ancient philosophy for actual life. All the things you actually need to know about Stoicism, you'll learn about it directly from me, and we're going to have a good time together. And this is a live course. It begins on Tuesday, March 22nd. All participants will move through the course together at the same time.

And registration is now open. And registration will close on Monday, March 21st at midnight. And you can sign up at dailystoic.com slash 101. Love to have you. Also remember, if you sign up for daily Stoke Life at DailyStokeLife.com you get this course and all other courses for free. So I hope to see you in Stoicism 101. Hey it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. You can still hear my stoke podcast. You can still hear my congestion, I'm sorry, but I was thinking it's like basically another lifetime ago before I wrote books, before I even apprenticed under Robert Green, I had a job

in Hollywood. The summer after my sophomore year in college, before I knew I was going to drop out, I went to Hollywood and I worked at a talent agency called the Collect, right in Beverly Hills, I'm on Wilshire in Doohini, and it was a pretty prestigious firm. They represented all sorts of big actors and celebrities, then ultimately a bunch of big musicians. My weird foray into it had been this blog that I've been writing an author I was working for and I sort of got adopted as a protege again for a talent manager there. And I was, I don't know, I guess that's what I thought I would do. I thought I would work in the entertainment business. I love TV and I love movies, I love art, I love books, of course. I didn't know exactly what I wanted

to do, but that was just so much more interesting I love books, of course. I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do, but that was just so much more interesting than anything I knew growing up. I was very excited about it. And I would go every day to this agency and I don't even remember all the things that I would do, but I remember being very into how the internet was intersecting with the entertainment business,

specifically what was then called Web 2.0 and social media. And I signed their first YouTube client. Wow, I was still an intern, we're an assistant. And so I was like this kid that was going places. And it was cool. It was exciting. A lot of the earliest posts on my blog were all about this life that I was on, this thing

that I was thinking about, this place I was going to make my career. I still knew I wanted to be a writer, but maybe that was a long time in the future, or maybe it was going to, I don't know, I don't know. In retrospect, I don't know exactly what I was thinking. I just knew it was a really good opportunity and I was learning a lot and I very much looked up to the guy who was who was my boss there and I would end up dropping out of college specifically because he said, Hey, why don't you not go back to college and work for me? And that was like my first real, real job. I remember

he paid me $30,000 a year. And I remember, I remember saying out loud to another human being, I remember saying, what am I going to do with all this money? All of which set up today's guest, the actor Josh Pekku, as you'll hear in today's interview, he and I intersected there. We are in very different places in our lives and very different levels of the entertainment business, but we intersected there for the first time for like 30 minutes. And there's like documentary evidence of this. Like you can watch a video of the scene in which we interacted, although I'm not in it. I'm like right off camera watching this surreal thing happen, which

we mentioned in the episode and I'll link to in the notes. You can watch this interview between Josh Peck and this kid named Dax Flame, who was an up and coming YouTuber at that time. And Josh was a child actor. He was the star of Drake and Josh. He'd just come out with this movie, a called The Whackness, which had won all these awards. He, and as we talk about in the interview, had also struggled with an addiction to drugs for some time, and we were intersecting in a weird time in both of our lives, we're sort of both kind of these unformed blobs of who we were going

to become. And it wasn't until several years later that I'd written my books and Josh had gone on to do many other things that I got an Instagram DM from Josh asking if I wanted to be on his podcast. And I said, Hey, there's no way you remember me, but we interacted. And then of course, he instantly did remember and we've become good friends since then. And when he sat down to write this book, he asked me for some advice and I helped.

And I think it's a great book. His new book was just released yesterday. Happy people are annoying. It's a really funny, really honest and raw memoir about the stumbles and silver linings of his life, his issues with his parents, his struggle with food, with drugs with self-esteem, self-sabotage, and ultimately, like the redemption, the zigzagging path to who he is, which like me is a young guy who gets to do what he loves, he has a family that he loves, he's really focused on self-improvement,

becoming his best self, is into stoicism. So it's been this awesome cool experience. I've been on his podcast once or twice. I don't remember. You can listen to those episodes. We'll link to them. But it's been so cool to see Josh go on to not just be a great actor and a bunch of great stuff, including the whackness.

But also like a huge social media star. He's got like millions of followers on TikTok, millions of followers on YouTube and Instagram. He's built this huge sort of new media life for himself, which I'm so impressed and inspired by. His username on Twitter and Instagram is Shuapek, SHUA, P-E-CK, shoe a peck, and you can follow him on YouTube. He's Josh Peck. It's funny. I helped Josh set up his YouTube channel. This the point of having this collaboration we did was Josh was going to be a Hollywood

celebrity who sets up a YouTube channel, which he promptly then ignored and never used went on to start his own YouTube channel many years later to enormous success. But in this interview, we talk about all of our history, all of our experiences and a bunch of awesome stuff. And I do hope you check out his new book because it's really good. I wouldn't say that if I didn't believe it. And I think I think make it a little bit better,

which I'm proud to say. And so you can check out Josh's book, Happy People Are Annoying Available Everywhere. We link to it in the show notes, along with all those other stuff I'm mentioning. So, before we did this, I rewatched our first interaction with each other. Did you? I did, have you seen it lately?

I have not, I have been treated myself. Well, maybe we can start with that story. So for people who don't know, I, my first job I was a, started as basically a phone answer at a talent management agency in Beverly Hills, which you were a client at. I signed their first YouTube client, this guy named Dax Flame, who is this sort of surreal

Andy Kaufman-esque performer. I had him interview you to launch your first YouTube channel. And you showed up in my recollection, high out of your mind. Is that correct? No, I was sober. I was sober at that time. Yeah, I was already sober. I, not only was I sober,

I was probably two or three months sober, but I had just had this crazy surgery, Snathbo, that I recently talked about on my podcast. It was certainly impetus to get, I had to be sober for this surgery I was having, like two weeks prior. And obviously, and when we get into the book, it's so much led up to that moment. So it just wasn't like random, hey, I'm having surgery, I should probably clean up. It was certainly the right time, but I was recovering from a surgery gone wrong, having spent like two weeks in a hospital,

hyperbaric chamber, like life threatening, but I also simultaneously had this movie I was promoting and I wanted to start a YouTube channel. So that's how I found myself six weeks later with the young and ambitious Ryan Holiday. And did I, did I ruin his career, Dax? Because I heard through the great vine that because I made that video with him and I didn't act the way he wanted me to that he quit making videos for a while.

Well, you know, it's so weird. We have these memories of how stuff went. And then when you actually, there's a great book by David Carr called A Night of the Gun for something like that, sort of an addiction memoir. And he goes back and he like investigates his own memory of things. And he realizes that like every part of his memory of a series of events was like totally wrong.

So, so who, I mean, so this was, I'm looking at the date, this is April 2008. So, would you have been, would you have gotten sober already? Yeah, because I got sober February 15th of 2008 and everyone wants to know what happened on Valentine's Day and I hate to break it to you, but I was in no position to be anyone's Valentine at that time. Well, I just, so I remember, so here's how I remember the events going, which is I had signed this YouTube client and nobody understood what YouTube was then, obviously in 2008. It had just been purchased for all this money, but no one was making serious entertainment on it.

And so I had suggested in the staff meeting that we have like a celebrity client come on this guy's thing and the launch their own YouTube channel. And you know how it goes, they went down the list of all the people they wouldn't dare bring this to. And then you were down there at the top of the middle of the list, I guess. It sounds about right. Yeah, but like I remember thinking that you were acting so weirdly. Like here, this is, this is what I was going to tell you. So I was looking at the first comment. This is from a year ago on the video, which is already, it still has 700,000 views. It's just pretty crazy.

And it says, this is one of the strangest videos on Dax's channel. For no other reason, then the fact that Dax is by far the least awkward person in the room. That's so good. That's so good. I just, you know what the problem, sorry, go ahead. No, no, go ahead, go ahead. I had no idea what I have to be honest with the same manager who was one of the people who was a partner in that company 15 years later. And he's done this to me twice, and once was with Dax, and the second, honestly, was with Shane Dawson 10 years ago, both of whom, I mean, Dax is, I mean, Dax, I was walking

into, Dax's host stick only worked if the celebrity or the person working off of him was normal, right? Because he was like this painfully uncomfortable sort of awkward. I mean, I don't want to, I think later it was sort of revealed that it was slightly like, perhaps he was on the spectrum or something. So I don't want to put a negative Conjunction to it. It just he had a specific way of interaction which was funny if the other person was trying hard to keep it sort of Sort of keep it up for the camera But I just mirrored him because I didn't know what I was walking into and I'm deeply obsessed with people

Pleasing and also don't want anyone to be funnier than me, especially at that time. And that's why the video just became like the probably the most awkward 12 minutes on YouTube. It was so strange. I mean, that's why his stuff was really good is that it was super awkward. So it was this kind of, I would argue it's one

of the earliest sort of performance arcs. To go, it's performance arc that sort of goes viral on the internet and that's why I was popular and weird and no one knew whether he was, yeah, whether he was on the spectrum, whether this was this horrible, like whether he shouldn't have had access to a camera and like his parents had no idea what he was doing or if it was all like brilliant performance art. And it's, you know, did you ever see that? This is at the Bob Sagget roast, where Norm McDottled went up and he just bombed on purpose, like he did like the worst act you could possibly do. The best, yes.

This is, I wonder if that's a little bit what this is, is that you escalated the awkwardness so much that it was one of the most uncomfortable, like, because I'm watching it now. It made me uncomfortable, but I remember being in the room thinking, like, what is happening? This is insane. Well, not to mention the fact that, like, yeah, you can't meet Andy Kaufman at Andy Kaufman. You have to be Judhersh, right? You have to be like screaming at him at his reaction or just be so upset that this person

is not subscribing to the social contract. And I didn't do that. I Kaufman, Kaufman in this scenario, and because I didn't know what to expect. Similarly, I remember when I went and worked with Shane Dawson for the first time, I was 26, I'd never been on YouTube. And again, he was represented by the collective, my manager's company at that time.

And he's basically playing a black female character in the worst stereotype tropes that would never be allowed today. And I'm sitting there looking at my manager going, you okay with this? Like this is who's allowing this? And I similarly am awkward in that video. That's hilarious.

No, it was such a weird experience for me. And then I ended up leaving shortly thereafter and went on a totally different path in life as sort of you did too. And then we ended up coming back together many years later, which I want to talk about. But I just, it was such a weird, like the whole experience is just seared in my memory

as like a weird part of a life that I no longer have. It it yes, you're I think in that way we were sort of we have a kinship in that. There's like parts of our lives that we've lived that we so completely turned our back on that it's almost as if it was another person. Yes, totally. And then the weird part about stuff being documented now is that you can go back and look at it and you're like, wait, you can't deny that it was you because it was you and it's there on the internet. You could have so easily been an operator in the business and a guy who wears like a really nice suit and goes to annoying parties and has kids that he sees sometimes

and eats at Spago a lot and was like a captain of industry within show business. And instead, I can't imagine you as anything other than the stoic who lives in Bastrop, who opens a bookstore during a pandemic for fun. Yeah, it's weird to think you look at all the different paths you could have gone in life and yeah, I could be driving a Range Rover right now living in Los Angeles. It probably, I could have been very successful but would have been ultimately very unhappy.

And I remember I was talking to about this exact thing, and I was talking to you about how some people I knew then went on and they started this company that was then worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And you were just like, yeah, but you couldn't have done that. Like, you're not like that I couldn't have done it, but that it would have been impossible for me to be that person. And that was actually like weirdly relieving for me to hear,

because it's not that I have regrets about it, but you sort of go like, would that hit? Should I have gone that way? What would have happened if I've gone that way? And then you realize that actually you can't go any other way than the way that you ended up going. It's incredible to me when I see people who really get a kick out of like, I mean, there's like the normal jobs like someone who's really in his spreadsheets and loves kicking ass as a CPA and I'm like, ah, I look up to that. But then there are those types that you're referencing, those guys who drive the Range Rovers and are real operators in the business. And it's like the art of the deal. Those say things like sell it, don't smell it without any irony,

because their wins are different than ours. Yeah, I remember just being like, I had a couple of moments. I had one when I was there at the collective, and then I had another one when I was at American Apparel, and I remember being at this conference that I'd gone to like a couple years in a row. And the first year I was there, I wasn't wearing a suit. And the next year I was there, I wasn't wearing a suit, but everyone else was. And I remember it occurring to me like the third time, like if I keep coming to this, eventually I'll be one of the people in a suit, right? That you can't be in that thing for too long without becoming like essentially everyone else. And so you sort of entertain

this idea that you're different, that you're not fully a part of the system or whatever, but you can't do that for very long. I don't want to sound like I'm being critical because I love the rock and I love Mark Walberg, but I look at those guys who are crushing it so hard. And now there's Mark Walberg Chevrolet and there's the rock energy drink in tequila. And I think like, did they conquer showbiz? And now it's like, like, what is there bet? Is it just this idea of being successful, putting your mind to something and succeeding and seeing it all the way through and moving on to the next thing? Is it just an entrepreneurial

spirit? I don't know because I'm not sure I possessed that. Yeah, or it's just like those operators in the business, it can, there's a lot of ways to be successful in life where you don't actually do anything or like contribute in any positive way. And if you're smart and hard working and, you know, not socially inept, you can find your way into one of those positions pretty easily. But it's not the most fulfilling sort of purpose-driven life out there. Right. Yeah, I think there's, I've certainly seen, even the actors I look up to, I think that's

why they become directors like, or something else in the business. Because I think, I do think even with acting, you can always push it, but there are certain people where I'm like, oh, they figured it out. Like, they know how to be good regularly. And I think they get a little bored. Interesting. Well, so I was assuming, because my memory, again, memory can be so deceiving.

So I would have assumed that you were still an addict then, and I was be curious how your life changed. But that's really interesting, because obviously, in the book I read about you getting sober, I would have thought that the dates overlapped differently. So I was also thinking like, how did they let him get on camera like this? Like how did someone intervene in the room? Because this is obviously a person who needed help.

But now I'm fascinated and thrown off by the fact that it happened differently than I remember. I mean, everything you could be like the only thing that I know without a shadow of a doubt was I was sober two months before that. Right. But the date is here in your memory. Yeah, I mean, I remember when I first got sober and you know, I would go to these men's tag meetings, which were these all men 12 set meetings. And these guys who were like pretty gruff would say to me,

well, when you get sober, what's your day? You would be like, you feel pressured and no, right off the top of your head. And they'd say, good, like protect that date with your life. And so, but to your point and what I talk about in the book is like, that kid, the only thing I was doing right in that moment was st. Silver and I certainly Could have still been all of the other I was still thoroughly out of my mind. I'm sure Walk me through that that rock bottom moment because you do you do talk about it in the book, but what?

It's kind of a cliche trajectory of like child actor gets hooked on drugs, gets sober turns their life around. But how does that go for you? Because I would have thought at that moment watching you being even though we're roughly the same age, you are someone who done all this stuff. So I would have thought like this guy's like on the top, this guy's on top of the world, this guy has all the stuff, this guy's crushing, he must be so happy, but you were at the exact opposite.

I think that basically to just like give quick touchstones, you know, I grow up incredibly overweight, 100 pounds overweight. So then I lose 100 pounds, but I'm the same head in a new body. And so I discover this new medicine that is way more efficacious and food and less calories. And I basically trade a Prius for a Ferrari. And I spend the next four years totally in chase of being a cliche, setting my life on fire, ruining relationships, and show business, just becoming known as unreliable,

and just tough to work with. I'm either running from the police on a regular basis, mostly because I called them myself, because I assumed there was some sort of incentive for being the first to alert them. There isn't, in case you're wondering. And then, and basically breaking my mom's heart on a regular basis. So that's where I find myself at 21, about two months before I get sober. And sort of the big thing that I've always wanted my whole life was, I hated being different from as far back as I can remember being the son of an only, of a, being an only child of a single parent or being overweight or what have you, I just wanted to be normal.

And then when I fell in love with acting, I didn't want to be the funny fat guy and I didn't want to be the kid actor. I just wanted to be an actor. And so what I talk about in the book was there was this moment. Somehow I had booked this, the biggest part of my life when I was in the midst of, in the depths of my drug addiction, a movie called The Whackness with my favorite actor, Serben Kingsley, and the movie got into the Sundance Film Festival, and it was my dream to not only be at this festival, but I was finally a real actor, not a kid star, not the funny fact guy, a real actor, and we're at the screening the night,

you know, the movie premieres and Quentin Tarantino's there. And suddenly, I'm like, literally amongst the people I solo up to, and I wake up the next morning and the reviews are coming in and the reactions great. And I immediately tell everyone in the house I'm saying that I need to leave right now. I'm getting on a plane I'm out of here. And people are screaming at me.

They said, Josh, why? This never happens. It may never happen again. You're going to leave, enjoy this. I just, as soon as I was a member of the club, it's that great saying. I never wanted to be part of a club that would have me as a member. And it was the one of the most impactful moments of my life that I realized good or bad at the highest of the high or the lowest of the low, I am bottomless. And nothing be it food, drugs or proceeds can

fill up this hole in my soul. And I got sober two weeks later. And I think it's it's undoubtedly correlated that sort of spiritual bottom. Is this thing all check one, two, one, two. Hey, y'all. I'm Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Virgo. Just the name of you. Now, I've held so many occupations over the years that my fans lovingly nicknamed me Kiki Keepa Bag Palmer. And trust me, I keep a bag, love. But if you ask me, I'm just getting started.

And there's so much I still want to do. So I decided I want to be a podcast host. I'm proud to introduce you to the Baby Mrs. Kiki Palmer podcast. I'm putting my friends, family, and some of the dopest experts in the hot seat to ask them the questions that have been burning in my mind. What will former child stars be if they weren't actors?

What happened to sitcoms? It's only fans, only bad. I want to know, so I asked my mom about it. These are the questions that keep me up at night, but I'm taking these questions out of my head and I'm bringing them to you. Because on Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, no topic is off limits. Follow Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, no topic is off limits. Follow Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, whatever you get your podcast.

Hey, prime members, you can listen early and app-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Do you think about, because I've written about this before, how many people have moments like that, where they get to the top of whatever it is, they hit a bestseller list,

or they sell their company or they, you know, the cover of magazine, they went a gold medal, super bowl, whatever it is. And then they realized that it was never going to do the thing for them that they wanted it to do because that's, I think that's what drives so many of us, right? Some you wanted your dad to be proud of you. You wanted to not feel like a loser. You wanted to feel cool. You wanted to be comfortable in your own skin, whatever that driving thing is for each person that drives you to achieve greatness at some profession, then it turns out to be

anti-climactic. How many of us turn away from that moment, like instead of getting the, instead of actually listening, we're like, oh, I just need to do it more. Totally. No, I mean, we wake up, I find I can only speak for people like me, right? So addicts, we respond great to catastrophe. So your wife walks out on you, you lose your job, you get a DUI, it's

like this exogenous kind of punch to the face of like wake the hell up and look at what you are doing. But it's short lived. And what you do in that moment is what is truly that crossroads moment. There's like a saying, where a guy calls you who's drunk and has been drunk for a long time and asks for help, don't let him take a nap because he might rest up a bit and he might be the sandwich and have a little bit of time go by and think, nah, I wasn't that bad. So you're right.

There are certainly people who have these moments every couple of years or what have you. And instead of taking action to maybe getting help, they double down on whatever got them there in the first place. Yeah, and it's not even just it's help. It's just like understanding the truth of it, right? So like you sacrifice for years and years to become, let's say, a superbowl when in coach and you've neglected your family, you've neglected your help, you know, to become, let's say, a superbowl when in coach and you've neglected

your family, you've neglected your health, you've done all this stuff to get there. And then it's anti-climactic. There's this moment where you go, oh, it wasn't worth it, you know, like it wasn't what I thought it would be. And then, yeah, you go to sleep that night, then you party a couple days, and you wake up a week later, that the breakthroughness of that epiphany, it has a short shelf life. And then it expires. And then you just go back to how you've always been. You don't make the change because you've lost, you know, it's expired. It's moved on.

You lost the freshness of it wore off. And then you just go back to who you always were. Yeah, I've heard Paul Gilmartin who has this great podcast, The Mental Owners Happy Hour talks about a friend of his who summited Everest and was at, you know, sort of base camp and explaining what it was like, you know, slowly getting up as the sun was coming, you know, to a tis peak and reaching the peak and looking down at pulses.

And when you reach to the top, was your father's love there? It's so true. It's right. I mean, I think we're all, it would be so fun to ask, like someone who's like the goat, like Tom Brady. I suspect someone like him, it's about the doing. He's like, what would the word be? He's just like, it's for him, it wasn't about the end result as much as like just being great in every single moment and the byproduct of that was major success. But who knows, maybe he hated

his dad, I don't know. No, I get it. It's like, you think like this will make my parents proud. And then only as you get older, you go, you shouldn't have to make your parents proud. That's the whole point. Your parents are supposed to be proud of it. It's a faulty premise. You can't do that.

Do you know what I mean? If your parents weren't proud of you before, just for being a human being that they loved, they're not going to be proud of you when you climb Mount Everest or you make it to Sundance for the whackness or you make a million dollars or whatever the thing is, it was, you were never going to get it. And I think it's coming to that painful conclusion that you're going to have to live a different kind of life and get what you want from some other source. That's where we have the constant amnesia or the lie to ourself. Or we fill that hole with drugs or alcohol or sex or whatever it is.

Yeah, everything that I've ever put before everything of the material world that I've used to make me feel okay has always had diminishing returns until it just literally it becomes just a a capital and negative in my life. And it was food and drugs. And then it was prestige and romance and all these things. But for better or for worse, it never, like my synapses, they get tired. You know, you can only take so much molly before you have no more serotonin left to give. Like my synopsis just get tired and it goes, whatever this thing is, the secret sauce that worked at one time doesn't. So either you have to find something else or go to some, you know, age old truths that have always worked to give people fulfillment.

What's interesting to those, I think we so want epiphanies, right? So we not only want those breakthrough moments, but then people also wanna hear, okay, he gets sober and then he was like a functioning, contributing member of society from that point forward. What I found so fascinating about your story is you get sober and then you talk about,

you were still, I don't wanna say you were a dick, but you still could not get out of your own way for like several years. So like the drugs were removed and that was a positive step. But I liked what you said earlier where you said the only thing you were doing right was not being high, even though it looked like

you were being high in that video. You were, you still had all the other destructive tendencies, ego, et cetera. And that didn't go away for a while either. Absolutely not. And, you know, the only prerequisite, I like in 12-step that they say, like, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking or using. You don't even have to have stopped yet because the reality is is like, and I don't mean

to say this in a negative way, it's just the unfortunate truth. Addiction is winning, right? I'm not sure there's any actuaries in recovery, but like, I've heard the number thrown around. I was like 95% of people who either go through rehab or have some sort of detox have an issue with drugs and alcohol or substance stay using throughout their life. So we're already the luck. I'm already the lucky one that I'm able to then end, or momentarily pause this thing,

and now I've been given admittance to this sort of world of possible growth. And how much I wanna key into that, how much now inner work I wanna do, because I finally have been allowed into this place where tools are possible, and resources available to start working on these things that got me to drink and use and eat in excess and facing these negative patterns that addict or not,

in general, I don't think most people want to look at these negative patterns that we accrue that usually are all stems from instinct to run wild, right? We have these instincts to procreate to find shelter, to be able to fill our bellies, and that's all good except it becomes, well, I need a few people to procreate with, and it would be great to have a couple shelters, and if I'm gonna fill my belly, it should be with like caviar and champagne.

And suddenly, these natural instincts overblown, start to bring us a lot of discomfort and disease. So look, I know a lot of guys who are so over 30 plus years and they're overweight, smoke two packs a day and are divorced and are always right. And I don't want what they have. And conversely, and not to say, and then there are a couple guys with that much time that are like men and women who are like, you know, the Maharishi that I just look up to in such a big way. But conversely, there are people who have a couple months or a couple of years, and they're so, you know, they're doing so much work on themself, and

they're so clued into like those principles, and I'm like, God, they have less time so than me and I'm so attracted to how awake they are. Do you know tanks and atra? Yeah. So he he he and I were talking about this thing that he said a while ago that I really liked. He was like, you know, so he's like some people they drink the the whole away or he's like, some people drink to fill the hole, some people have sex to fill the hole, some people do drugs to fill the hole, some people work to fill the hole. He was talking to this about this to like a sober person,

and they were like a person who had never been an addict, and they were just like, what hole are you talking about? You know, and I thought that was so brilliantly said because like if you are not a broken person, none of this makes any sense. Like if you don't have that destructive energy or that whole you're trying to fill, you don't get it. But if you are one of those people,

then what you understand is that just stopping the drugs or the drinking or the sexual behaviors, it doesn't actually address the fundamental root cause of all of it. You still have that energy that then goes off in other destructive ways, less destructive, more socially acceptable, but maybe it goes into ego or maybe it goes into these other things, it doesn't just magically resolve because you stopped using. Yeah, so drugs and alcohol tend to drive you to a bottom very quickly because they're so efficacious, so the downside is so good. And if you look at the personality disorders as opposed

to severe mental illness, You have bipolar and schizophrenia and these things that require you to really look at these things and perhaps take medication or certain ways because it's so intrusive on your life. But then in my opinion, are the really insidious personality disorders we don't talk about like narcissism by borderline history on it obsessive that you can get through life but you sometimes sit and sometimes they're not even capable of saying this but a borderline person or a narcissist we're like why don't I have any real like why do I seem to turn off everyone right but it wasn't so glaring that they were forced to look at this thing and they wake up at 60 and go like, geez, I seem to have turned off everyone. I can't imagine why.

And I see that in people in life where they have these things that haven't served them these negative patterns, but they were sort of never forced to face it and they wonder why sort of they're unhappy at the time that they are. So I'm glad that I was forced to like really look at these things and I know now I have to constantly look at them, you know, it's maintenance. It's like, last night's meal won't keep me fed. So when do you start doing that work on yourself? So you obviously get sober, you start going to 12 step, but when do you start working on yourself as a person? Like when is the reading start and the sort of self-improvement stuff? Because it seems like you go down that rabbit hole pretty quickly too.

I, you know, I think again, like assets done too much become defects, right? Yes. So I, I overdo it, but if I can, if I can pull it back slightly to a more manageable, positive way, in all my endeavors, that that level of ambition and work ethic can serve me. And so, as soon as I knew that, look, I remember when I talk about this in the book, I listened to this woman shared a meeting when I had like four or five years sober and she said something to the effect of You are the fish you are trying to catch you are the love of your life And what are you willing to let go of that stands between you and happiness? She said, you know, they're the glaring defects that we all want to let go of. I don't think anyone wants to be You know violently angry all the time or jealous, or slothful.

Those things are easy in theory to let go of, because they're not really attractive. But she says, once you get rid of those, what are you willing to let go of that you think serve, the things that you think might be serving you, that relationship you can't let go of, or that job you think that defines you. And I remember thinking in my head,

God, she is so right, and a beat went by, and then I thought, oh, I hope that doesn't happen to me. And so at every turn, when I plateaued, when I realized that I've been uncomfortable in my own skin, and if I avoid it long enough, I might just get uncomfortable enough to need a drink. And I'm not willing to drink today. And so because of that, I force myself

to do the work that I know that what's on the other end is a bit of spiritual reprieve, is a little bit of that ease in life that I'm searching for, but it's gonna take some work. But when did you start reading? It seemed like you fell in love with reading at some point.

Was that after you got sober? Are you always been a reader? I think, you know, certainly, I think podcasts helped a lot to be honest. And it has been in 2015 and sort of like I feel like when I first got turned on to pods and I always loved talk radio and whatnot. But then, you know, listening to Rogan or listening to these podcasts where they would interview these people who had written books that were facing this idea of growth and self-discovery and then getting

turned on to your books and then Robert Green and early on like books like Anthony D'Amelos like the way to love and all these different, you know, it just, it became very clear that the guys in variety that I would adopt to seem to be hip to these texts that were sort of like the graduate program of sobriety. It was the extra layer, even like I'm not a religious guy, but like, you know, Emmett Fox and all these, and then eventually at Cartole and sort of like the introduction in the spiritual readings,

and then I just got, and then even like some things that started slightly. I don't know what you know I read the game because I was 22 when I was single right and reading Neil Strauss and just he's such a great writer and that book that can be slightly evil probably but then in following his sort of trajectory through life, and I just got attracted to seekers like you and I wanted to read the things that you guys read. Do you think it was also like you were looking for someone to give you like advice about life that maybe you should have gotten from your parents that because one of them wasn't there and the other one seemed like she had her own issues.

I feel like a lot of the reading that I do, especially early on in that space, is like, these are conversations I wish I'd had with my dad that I just didn't for some reason. And you're looking for, not even like fatherly wisdom, you're looking to be kind of part of a tradition in the way that you might have gotten thoughts from grandparents and elders.

Or like, you're looking for that advice about how to be a person in the world that just doesn't seem to exist anywhere anymore. And not only that like I really look up to my father and mom who seems to encapsulate all the things that you're talking about and he just does them naturally. Yes. I'm not sure he could he could convey it to me like I don't sure Yes. I'm not sure he could he could convey it to me. Like I don't sure words because it's so natural to him. So you're right. I think and I think to your point, yes, I had a non-traditional sort of family structure. You know, it sounds like you had a more traditional one and yet here we are both seeking inevitably and when I always tell people like you will have to parent yourselves. No matter how good your parents were eventually. You will have to

fill in the gaps and even just in a separate way what was so attractive to me about like sobriety and meetings you know when I started going to these all-guy meetings it was like I had never want I never felt comfortable in an all-guy anything because I didn't think I possessed the requisite testosterone. When these guys are hitting me with these things about what it means to be, quote, some man and responsibility. And if you want self-esteem, do a steam of the lax. I was like, how was this not given to me?

Yes. Great. No, I totally agree. That's why I felt when I found Stoicism, I was like, why didn't, why did I read all this nonsense? Why did I do square dancing in fourth grade and not talk about this?

Where was this all my life? I feel like, yeah, I feel like there's a centric of what I love, where he says, you can't choose your parents, but you can choose whose children you want to be. And I feel like it's this sort of decision. You sort of meet these people and you're like, oh, these are the people that I want to be like.

And you've never met them before in your life. So you didn't even know they were possible. And then you realize you can read or learn from them. You can be an heir to that tradition, even if you have no relations with them. Yeah, and I think, you know, I feel like you're a big fan of the lawn, Debalton as well.

Yeah. And he has this great quote about how we're taught physical hygiene and like an incredibly young age, right? Like, my son, since he had teeth, knows that like he and I stand together and him on his stool and me just without a stool because I'm of a normal man height

and we brush our teeth that night. Like, this is how it goes and we take a bath every night. So we're taught like physical hygiene, but we're never ever taught mental hygiene. It's just a soon you should know how to navigate the world. Which of course you don't and it's way harder to navigate that world that you figure out

the hygiene stuff on your own eventually. I stink. What do I do about this? But the mental stuff is so much more insidious and difficult and yeah we give almost no guidance whatsoever. It's rough and everything now with social media is all, everything's a bumper sticker, like hustle harder. Like what does that mean? But I don't know, it's a destination, but not how to get there. Well, you know what I was thinking though

that's so funny about your story? You know that expression, like when the student is ready to teach her appears? It's the whole point of the collaboration with you and Dax, which is where we started, was that you would start a YouTube channel, that that was a viable entertainment path for a person. And so I was looking,

because I'd never thought about it before. I was like, so is that the YouTube channel that he ended up starting? Did he just go claim that? And no, you ended up starting your own YouTube channel, like however many years later that now has like millions of subscribers. So that actually was the path for you in life. You just were not at a place to take advantage of it then.

Totally and I think and isn't it interesting now and how I was not able to take advantage of it until like 10 years later when there was enough sort of evidence and data that made it really attractive. And then there's someone like Dax who I don't think was able to fully take advantage of the prime of social media. Right. So it's timing. Yes. Well, so that yeah yeah, that's the idea that like, you actually can't be anything else. You know, so do you think about like, you talk about some big moments, there's like the Judd Apatow movie that you could have gotten that you didn't get

or some other projects that you sort of blew. As you think back on that, do you have regrets or do you go, actually it could have never happened. Like, it needed to happen the way that it happened. I absolutely believe that fully. And I don't know if I'm just doing that so I can sleep at night. But totally, I think that if you were capable,

if you've accrued the skills in which to be like a quasi-respectable member of society who's not overly selfish or trying to sabotage other people, and you get given an option or a crossroad or a fork in the road, I should say, there's either the right decision or the decision that you had to make to learn something to be able to make

the next right decision, right? And that's it. Like, because I don't worry, I no longer see sort longer see the glaring me on sign of that is begging me to go do something that will totally put my life in jeopardy. That's not an option anymore, but certainly I'll get put, or recently I was in a position where there was an opportunity that would have moved me and my family out of the country to go work 10 months out of the year. And sure, it could have been some prestige and some

money and whatnot. But I knew that wasn't good for the overall health of my family. So I said, no, now that might mean that I need to have financial insecurity for the next 10 months to learn something. But I did the best right decision at the moment that I was faced with that. But you're right. I mean, I tell the story of Judd Apatow in my book where six months after I had finished Drake and Josh, I'm 19, I'm in the depths of my addiction, all I want to do is graduate out of kids TV and be respected. And someone is brilliant with the foresight,

as Judd Apatow says, there's something about you that's funny. I audition for a movie he's producing, and he calls me and says, the part you audition for is not right for you, but you are funny. So I'll write you a small part in the movie, but hang out on set, write some jokes for people,

we'll figure out different scenes to kind of throw you into to maybe put a button on a scene and let's see what happens. And I did that in a movie called Droba Taylor, but unfortunately I could not take advantage of that opportunity at the time because I was so not ready. And I basically turned my back on the guy who's basically a kingmaker for funny Jews such as myself, non-traditional leading men types. You could have been part of the crew that sort of Judd Apatow crew that did a generation of movies

and that didn't happen. He called, I remember when we were on set, the first couple days it was going well and he said to me, you know, I'm working on this other movie right now, you should stop by that set. Maybe you can, you know, think of some funny jokes or we'll put you in a scene. And I was like, oh, yeah, what's it called? And he was like, that's this thing called super bad.

And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll try to make it. Ryan Spoiler alert, I never made it. But to your point, you're right. It wasn't, it wasn't right for me. And I mean, I had to completely blow that up to eventually being enough paying to get sober and get my life on track. Isn't it funny how different that is? So you blow that opportunity like unintentionally but then here you are all these years later getting and you know potentially equally

good opportunity and you're like no I'm not going to take it but for totally different reasons. So it's the same thing but for healthy reasons, for unhealthy reasons. Yeah, that's so well put. You're right. And I don't know if it's the universe doing for me what I couldn't do for myself or it's just you know it's just random I don't know. Yeah it's weird it's very strange. So how did we I remember we reconnected because you messaged me on Instagram. Yes and I was like you there's no way you remember me. I did not. I was a fan, dude, I'm a total band. And then of course, like the moment it was almost as the message was opening, I'm like, Ryan from the collective, 21 year old Ryan, of course, Ryan. But up until that a millisecond before,

I just loved your writing. And I was a fan and of books like the ones that you write. And I had a podcast and you came on and then we immediately, I don't know, I just, obviously we had had some history, but there is that language of the heart with like a fellow traveler that you have. And luckily we had history, so I feel like we became closer than I would with someone

that was a total stranger before, but nevertheless, there's just that common language that is born in those moments. Yeah, I don't know what, yeah, you're right. That's exactly what it is. There's some shared history, even though we were literally in the same room together for 30 minutes.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. And then, but then also, what was great about you, Ryan, and I just love this in general, is like, whether it was your past in American in parallel, what have you, you had just enough dirt on you to where I could be like,

ah, this guy gets it. Because if you were just like a perfect Buddha from jump, I would have been like, I don't know if this guy can get me. Yeah, no, it's weird. My addiction slash compulsions were much more socially acceptable, right? They weren't actively destructive. But when I look at, like, working at the collective then for Tucker and then for American Apparel working for these different people, they're all the same people. It's the same place. It's like me trying to attach myself to or be and realfully blind to what was obvious to everyone else.

Just over and over for like 10 years of my life. It's totally inexplicable for me. But it's, yeah, it's, and it's like we talk about what we said earlier, which was like assets becoming, you know, defects when they're in, there's too much of it, right? And I feel like you really, you tow that line. And like those are the people that I'm like,

I, you know, I had his off to the guy who can go to a monastery and meditate for 10 hours a day. I'm just not capable of that. Like, I really want to see someone who's taking these, you know, these ancient truths and applying that to a really annoying, you know, moment. Like someone who's really living it, That, that fascinates me. Yeah, and look, I think if you're not broken, you don't have to do any thinking about these things.

You just are. You're talking about your father-in-law. The people are just naturally there, almost lack an ability to communicate about it. In the same way that a really talented athlete usually doesn't make a good coach. It has to be a slightly sub subpar athlete who has to actually wrap their head around the game and how the game works that can function in a leadership role. LeBron James probably actually wouldn't be a great coach

because he's so amazing. You need someone who's a couple of tears below him who has to be more aware of how the game works. I would argue that it might be why LeBron doesn't always seem like the greatest leader just in general because his ability is so striking and undeniable that it's so frustrating for him when other people can't just meet him at that level. Kobe was that way for sure.

Yeah, totally. Not everyone is Koby. Like, it's hard to understand that. I, you know, like, and the thing with my father-in-law is that he does, it's not like he has this hack, right, so that he can subvert all the natural sort of requirements of being a human. It just comes naturally. So he is the guy who will pick you up from the airport. Like that is of such high value in the world in which we live in.

He's constantly doing for others. He always, sometimes I play this game in my head with him where I try to eat after him because he is always the last person to fill his plate at a family dinner. Everyone eats first and it's inspiring and like, you know, he's got four kids and I watch him like when there's like this natural and it's never, you know, said with vitriol but like, there'll be like a natural sort of family conflict where the siblings are going out, you know, going at each other. And he'll just kind of give me a look and a half smile and just, you know, roll his eyes. I'm like, don't you want to get in here? I'm like, I don't want to get in here. But he knows that to be unreactive in most situations is the way. And, you know, I was recently talking to, I know, you know, like, Larry Hamilton and Gabby Reese. And I mean,

those are the happy- They have that energy, they have that energy. And Gabby said it so well. She's like, listen, like, because I said, I'm like, stop it already. Like you're both attractive. You're both super athletes. It's not fair. And she's like, I was like, how are you guys so generous? She's like, it's not that I, she's like, I'm aware of the secrets of the universe.

Like, I know what begets a good life. It's not like this is inherent to me. Like, and I think what she was sort of saying is like, I have all the natural selfish feelings. I do feel elite at times and different than others, but I just know if I am this way, I'm gonna get a good life by being good to others. Right.

Yeah, well, that's actually good, right? Because if it is just natural, if there's no conscious willpower behind it, it's actually not that impressive, right? It's like just being really tall. Like, you didn't have anything to do with that, right? Someone said this about Mr. Rogers. I think it was his wife. She was like, I, I, I want you to know how hard he worked, right?

Because if he wasn't working at it, then he was just a saint. And then it's not that impressive. Right. God, that's so true. And he was, you know, you watch that documentary and you go, when, when is the second act bomb about to drop or like, Mr. Rogers was weirder than we thought, but he's not. He was just a good dude, but not naturally a good dude.

I mean, naturally good, but not naturally perfect. That was the result of conscious work on himself. Where do you fall into that? On the much lower end of the spectrum. You know what I mean? Like, not certainly not perfect, and then definitely having to work very hard for whatever it is that is good.

Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like, and my wife talks about this that is good. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like, and my wife talks about this where she's like, one of us is stoic and the other writes about stoicism, right? Like, you know, she has it down. If I, like, if I don't lose my temper about something that's very upsetting,

it's because I was able to go, that is very upsetting and I'm going to choose not to be upset by it, not because that's just how I am, because I'm not that way. But, and do you find like you found age old truths through the packaging of stoicism? Like I've found it through, you know, 12 step into some respects and through your writing and others.

Like, we're all working, like, we're all trying to get to Disney World. It's just like, which row do you take? But it's all repackaged for what's consumable for you, right? And sometimes that's religion. It can be so many things. I think that's right. Well, I would say we're not all trying. But of those of us who are trying, there's a lot of different ways there. Yes. In fact, I'd argue most people are not trying at all. And that's why even some of the most basic things in 12-step are actually not that basic, you know, when someone's like, it's work,

it works if you work it, or you know, these clichés, if you've never heard them before, or you do the opposite of them, they actually are quite groundbreaking and profound. You find that you've fought like sometimes with all this knowledge, I'll still find myself falling into a bit of like optimistic nihilism where even though I know these things to be true without a shadow of a doubt, I sometimes go like, but it's all random and who gives a shit anyway. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the struggle. It's easier to just give up and to feel like it doesn't matter than to keep trying even

though you might have some doubts, even though it might seem like there isn't much point to it. And then especially, you work in an industry like yours and mine, where you see a lot of shitty people do quite well. Yes, or get away with horrible things. Yes. I'm glad, you know, the reckoning that's happened over the last decade and obviously in moments like this, the pendulum has to swing way to the other side

for it to eventually find balance. But like anytime I hear like another white guy actor who's like, there's no porch for us anymore. I'm like, we had it pretty fucking good for a long time, my friend. I'm just like, listen dude, like, but yes, there can be some like frustrating moments where you feel like the over correction is so over.

But overall, this is such a good thing for the health of this business that we are a part of. Yeah, I think that's right. And then generally, when you look at a shitty person who's succeeding, I try to remind myself that it also still sucks to be them, as it's sucked to be you when you were succeeding but unhappy. So when I asked you to be my advisor when writing this book, what went through your mind?

Were you like, oh no. No, I was like, this sounds really fun. I loved it. That's one of my favorite rules to be able to advise on a project but not actually have to do the really heavy lifting. Yeah. So it was really fun.

No, I had a great time. I mean, oh my gosh. I sometimes I'm like, I forget that you're like nine or ten months younger than me. And I'm like, because what the hell is this? This is going to blow up your ego to as much as a soap would allow their ego to be stroked. But I bought a house with my wife and I was working on my office and I was like, I want to put pictures of the people that you love and you look up to. She's like, so where can I get a picture of Ryan?

So be you up there with Basquiat and a couple of other. Wow, that's very cool. So be you up there with Boschiat and a couple of other. Wow, that's very cool. So speaking of people you admire or trying to strive to be something, how is being a parent changed you? I think this is a sign-filled quote, like having a child is like being handed the keys to a city that's already been built, you just open the door and you are in this new city.

You had nothing to do with the establishment of it. And it's, it's every, it's every, in this idea that it's like, you don't, you usually in light, whether it's everything requires construction, right? From your great dreams, it's gotta start at practice and Peewee. And, you know, if you wanna be a lawyer, it starts at law school or even before that.

But like, you get to reap all the benefits of what it feels to have a child, the moment they're born. And you don't have to earn it, right? So it was like, I fell in love with my kid, the moment he was here. I didn't have to get to know him, right? It was this instant connection. And I didn't have to learn how to love him.

I just felt this overwhelming, my connection with this kid. And you know, I say this in the book, and I think it's like one of, it was the benefits of writing the book because I don't know if I would have ever sat down and braised it this way, and now I feel like it is so, so true.

I never met my dad, he died in his 80s, I was 26. And I'll never get an immense from my dad. And while I've forgiven him, I, you know, it would have been nice. And then when I had my son, I realized that I received the immense I'd always been looking for by being the father to him that I never felt that I got. And that correcting generational trauma can be as easy as just not giving it to the next generation. And so, you know, that for me was, it just allowed me to really put to bed so many of the experiences in my life. And also, and I say this in the book, like, you got to be careful how much growing you do

alone. You know, you don't want to be a Faberjee egg where you're gorgeous and ornate, but the moment you get jostled around a little bit, you shatter. So like getting married and committing to my wife in that way, like forced me to face things that I could be doing better, that she made glaringly clear. And then having a kid forced me to like look

at my coping mechanisms and look at the way that I think is appropriate and say like that's not right for my child. Yeah, and the Gary Shanley Doc, he says give what you didn't get, which I think is a beautiful way of thinking about being a parent. It's I mean, you talk about I love what you said that you wish, I think you said on my podcast, you wish you had had kids earlier, only because like you would have started the best part of your life sooner.

Yeah, and it would have made me be who I am now earlier. Right. Which is the adult that you're talking about. Like it forces you to just deal with your ship. Yeah, it's just because they're because in one small package, they are the thing like a child can allow you to be selfless. And to me, like helping my fellows boat to the other side in yours too will cross. Like that to me is like the secret sauce, right? And I've always tried to think my way in the right action,

but the answer is always be act your way in the right thinking. So whenever I have friends who are nervous about having a kid, I always want to say, the only way kids will disrupt your life is if you are still really into brunch. We love you. Yeah, I think to be successful young is, you know, engenders of kind of selfishness, but then also to be an artist, artists are inherently selfish, right? To be a creative person, you have to be selfish.

And so having a kid ideally is the first time that selfishness is really challenged. And like, but I love when you and I talk and you talk about like keeping bankers hours because you have your like set time that you work and it doesn't intrude on your time with your kids. Yeah. Yeah, no, it forces you to be a regular person in a way that you can get away with not being a regular person if you're a you can get away with not being a regular person if you're a successful artist or entrepreneur or whatever. Because your kid definitely keeps regular hours.

Yes. And I don't know if you know like I do all the things growing up, I had a single mom right and she was older and we lived in New York City, we didn't have a lot of dope. So like on the weekend, if we did one thing on a Saturday, like go to the mall and eat at the food court between 12 and 2, that was it. When we got home at 2.30, we were shut down for the night.

And I was like, shit, I'm an only child, and now it's just me and the TV, the sucks. And now with my son, like I get, and I can't believe how, how, you know, it's not that expensive. I'd be like, do you want to go to the trampoline park? Because we can go right now. Like, and it'll be like, of course, I want to go.

And I'm like, this is 20 bucks. Like, it's not exactly Disney World Passes. Or, you know, and we do so much of that. And I don't feel like, oh, I'm here. I could be doing yoga. And I think some parents feel that way. But I'm lucky that I don't feel that at all. I'm getting the kick out of doing reliving this with him.

But your story illustrates this a little bit with your dad is like having a kid and being a parent are very different things. Yes. And it, you know, the thing with my dad, what helped me was all I knew of my father was that he had a family and kids, or I'm sorry, he had a wife and kids, and they were grown, right? Because he was 60 when he was with my mom. And so I tell this story, when I found out he had passed away, because he was an older dude,

he didn't have much of an online footprint. But I knew my siblings' names. And so a friend of mine said, why don't you put that in the Facebook? And all of a sudden, this treasure trove of pictures of my father, I mean, I had never even seen a picture of him until I was 26. And all these pictures come up of him at bar mitzvah's

and weddings, and then eventually when he passed away like these beautiful tributes from my siblings to their dad, our dad, we were to even say it that way, about how much they loved him and how he was, what I wanted him to be for me, he was that for them. So there could be other, other me's running around,

or maybe he was just a guy who totally messed up and didn't have the amount of courage it would take at 60s that completely turned his life upside down. And so I can't be the arbiter of the ultimate right because he was a good dad just for that. Yeah. Right. And the only way you can undo that is the only way you can find an meaning from that is to be a good dad yourself. Yeah, I'm writing the wrong. So not passing the trauma. I mean, I originally wanted to put this in the book and then I didn't, but you know, it's not for me to diagnose anyone as an alcoholic or not. But from what I know of my grandfather, who I never met, he liked to drink, eat, smoke 10 cigense of ours today,

regularly set his dress factory in work on fire for the insurance money, and dropped that at 50. And he was nice enough to give his proclivity for overdoing things to my mom, who wrestled with it a lot of her life, but luckily, got into therapy in 12-step, who then gave it to me when she saw her little boy sort of facing it.

And now my son who, you know, is three has a really good chance at only being like reasonably dysfunctional, like just having a normal amount of messed upness. And I think about how it took four generations to clean this up. And that's, I mean, it's pretty powerful. Yeah, to just not leave them worse than you were. Is it low, but also very high bar? Yeah, it's so, it's, it's definitely the goal. When you, sorry, this is a weird echo.

When you, sorry, this is a weird echo. When you now have a kid in your house, does it help you understand how insane your own childhood was? That's been really different for me being like, oh, now I know how you're supposed to treat a five-year-old. And what a five-year-old needs. It's so telling. And because I know on an adult cerebral level, I mean, my wife had COVID six weeks ago,

and so she was locked in our room for five days. And so I had my son four or five days over Christmas break like there was no school. It was just him and I and I would literally put him down at 7 30 and lay on the couch scrolling tick-tock it a quarter to eight. So I was like I deserve this and I'm like and like by 7 59 I'd be asleep with like my phone off to the side because I was so and I'm like wow my mom did this for 18 years, like, and being the sole parent. And so while I can reconcile all of that

and see on a logical level, like the Herkulean amount of strength that took her to do that, I am so aware that I was dealing with some, some things that maybe a kitchen have to deal with. And I'm careful about that because on one hand, those truths have been important to face. This idea of like, I never had that opportunity that I hope my son will have at 18

to be wonderfully open to doing whatever he wants. I didn't have that. I had to make money and I had to keep going. I think that has installed a lot of neuroses and pressure on me. But the other side of it is, and my friend reminds me of this, he's like, yo, dude, like, your mom, like, look at you. Like, you're a good kid. And that's because of your mom,

like, and it's only her. And so I have to be reminded of that too, is balance, because it's easy to be like, well, you know, look at your parent and think, well, now I'm facing this and you could have made it easier for me, but it's also about coming to terms with like, hopefully they were doing the best that they could. Well, it's not, it's not good or bad. It just was what it was. And in the same way, it's like, oh, I grew up. This happened to me. And so this was the result. Do you know what I mean?

You're like, oh, I broke my leg when I was six. And then that mess with my growth plates. And that's why I'm the height I am. It's not good or bad. It just is, right? It's just a fact. The lack of the moral judgment, I think does allow you to be a little bit more peace.

My therapist said one time, I was talking about something with my parents, and she was like, look man, these are the cards you were dealt. Like you're just not gonna get, you're not gonna get what you need from these people, right? Like it's just, that's just how it is. That's not good or bad, how it is. That's,

it's not good or bad, it just is. So what are you going to do about it? And how awful is it that your beautiful children and a certain age are going to look at you and your wonderful wife, the stoic and the guy who writes about stoicism, and they're going to confront you. And like my kid will too. And like I give my mom shit like especially you know Jews who were born in the you know in the 1900s Inherited this like weird epigenetic trauma, right? Because like even the ones who were in in Europe like all they were hearing was stories of their families were wiped out And a lot of Jews just showed up here on a boat and like walked the lower, like my grandmother walked the lower east side like

at eight years old and orphaned without shoes. This was the story of my grandmother who completely unequipped to hand my mom and gave her the best she could. But my mom had a life that I'll never be able to understand that challenge. And mine was challenging too. And sometimes I'll say to her like,, well, you chose to have me. Like, it's not my fault. You had a harder life than I did. And I know that my kid is gonna give me on some version the same shit.

And I'm gonna be like, you go to Montessori school. What more could you walk from me? No, I think there's one, some intellectual humility that you have to have, right? That you're gonna do the best you can, and it's not gonna be enough. But you still have to really try, right? And you have to do your best to give your kids

a childhood that they don't need therapy for. Right. But they will. They can probably well. They go to therapy probably. They're probably well, but obviously to a certain degree, you have some semblance of control, of how severe the therapy needed will be.

100%. And do you find it like I will, I fall in lockstep with my wife and it's all those corny tropes of like happy wife, happy life, but more so, I can recognize you naturally have a healthier interpersonal sort of strategy when it comes to the people she deals with on a daily basis or family and now in raising a kid. And so I'm happy to, you know, acquiesce to her

and be her lieutenant as opposed to the general. And like, there's always one or two times where I'm like, no, I feel strongly about this. But the most part of the go, even if I don't quite see it in the moment, there's an update that suggests that you know best when it comes to our son. Well, that goes to this humility also, right? I don't remember, and even talking to my parents now, I didn't get much of a sense that they had any doubts or questions, which I think was kind of the problem, right?

Like they were very convinced. This was the right way to do it. And so even the idea of like, no, I have some issues myself. So I'm actually going to defer to you here, as opposed to just being convinced that my way is the right way. Yeah, it's so I remember I was doing an interview the other day in this woman gave me this thing, which I hate, which was why are these TikTokers making so much money? And I said, she said, they don't do anything. Do they? And I said, I have to stop you right there. I said, I don't want to be that guy. I said, because I think every

generation has looked at the next and been like, they don't get it. And I don't have that boomer energy. Like, I want to believe that they might be doing something that I can't quite appreciate at my age, but it's no, you know, more or less valuable. No, boomer energy, if I think about what I'm trying to avoid as a parent, pretty much all of it is that sort of boomer energy, which I think was different when we were kids,

but as we've seen over the last four or five years, has really curdled as they've gotten older. Oh yeah. And it's, let go to like, I look at parents my age and younger that, I'm trying to pull some of the good in quotes, boomer energy of this idea of like, I can't, I can't protect my kid against everything. I can't see deep proof life for them. And I see so many of my fellows

trying to do that. And I'm like, you know, I don't know if that's tenable. I was, I was writing an email an email for this thing I do every morning called Daily Dad the other day. And I heard the joke from somewhere, but I really liked it. It was like, do you ever remember your parents making sure you were drinking enough water? Like, everybody's in your life.

Now, like every kid has a water bottle. And if you send them to school and that's not like a environmentally safe water bottle filled, you know, like all hell will break loose. Then you just realize it was like, how much of the conflict I had with my parents was because I was a five-year-old who was thirsty and just no one bothered to think

whether I was hydrated or not, you know what I mean? So just so much of, I think so much of it comes down to as we grow as a society being able to be more conscientious and aware and considerate of all these other factors. And I think it makes you a better parent ultimately. Yeah, I think so too. And then yeah, realizing as you've done the work on yourself, that care that you know you now deserve, like your kid also deserves. that care that you know you now deserve, like your kid also deserves. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's right on.

And just sending them up to, you know, there are so many people like, I wanna give them at off ramps because we're all on this highway and we're all going towards like, no matter how enlightened we become, like we have to get some level of security and despite our best efforts, like we not going to be able to insulate them from Instagram

culture, telling them X, Y, and Z. So it's like, I just want him to know that there are signposts be it like physical fitness. And what that up for is you're just getting endorphins going every day or therapy or talking to a friend. And then the extra level, which is like being a service to other people. Like there's just nothing that is as close to heroin that I have found. It's like literally the only thing that I'm like, wow, when done correctly, this is pretty damn good. Well, you've been just the awareness that like, hey, everyone has these wounds, this hole, and there's different ways to fill it, right? And that you're aware that drugs or alcohol or success or ambition,

that is one way. It's just a really not fun way in the end. It gives you, that's an ability to communicate an important lesson to your kids that your parents just didn't have the self-awareness or involvement to be able to give you. But is it mostly modeling, Ryan, like, to find certain it is, right? Yeah. You have to be what you want your kids to be. Yeah, it's the only way.

It's the only or if you're, you can tell them it, but if you're not it, you're modeling the exact opposite of what you want them to be. Right. Well, man, dude, this was so fun. I'm so glad we reconnected and I'm so glad we reconnected. Brian, I can't thank you now.

It's not gonna be a part of it. If this book is any good, it's because of you. It's very good. It's very good. It's very good. You know, initially in this process, when I got this deal and I was like, I need someone that I can bother often and if it can be someone who I totally look up to and I respect

their writing and I just put it out there with you, but you know, from the moment you agreed, I was like, okay, whatever version of this, because I felt slightly capable of writing. I was like, I think I have something to say, but now I feel like I have someone to actually form it into the delivery method I want it to be. So thank you, dude. I'm proud to be your friend. Well, likewise, and you did it. I mean, I gave notes on it, but like for people who don't know, almost 99% of these books are written by someone else. And you actually wrote it. I watched you write it. You actually wrote your book. And I think that's why it's good.

And there's a level of authenticity and honesty and truth to it. Because you didn't just give a couple interviews and then a book came back. And then you edited it. Now you're doing interviews about it. Like you actually wrote this book. And so I hope what you take from the process is that that you actually are a writer and you, you can make your own material. Like this was something based on your own life, but like given what you've done on YouTube,

given what you've done on social media and now this, you should be very confident, I think, making something and putting it out there. Well thank you and I only hope that it's a success so I can get a big advance to have you write the next one. I'll help but I'm not going to write it but I appreciate that man. Now this is so fun. Awesome thanks dude thanks for having me. Of course. So fun. Awesome. Thanks, Steve. Thanks for having me.

Of course. You know, the Stoics in real life met at what was called the Stoa. The Stoa, Poquile, the Painted Porch in ancient Athens. Obviously, we can't all get together in one place because this community is like hundreds of thousands of people and we couldn't fit in one space. But we have made a special digital version of the Stoa. We're calling it Daily stoeic life. It's an awesome community you can talk about like today's episode you've talked about the emails

ask questions that's one of my favorite parts interacting with all these people who are using stoicism to be better in their actual real lives. You get more daily stoeic meditations over the weekend just for the daily stoeic life, quarterly Q&As with me, clothbound edition of our Best of Meditations, plus a whole bunch of other stuff, including discounts, and this is the best part, all our Daily Stoke courses and challenges, totally for free, hundreds of dollars of value

every single year, including our new year, new U Challenge. We'd love to have you join us. There's a two week trial, totally for free. Check it out at Dailystokelife.com. Hey, prime members, you can listen to the daily stoic early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today

or you can listen early and ad free with Wondering Plus in Apple podcasts. Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.