The Daily Stoic - Kate Flannery on the Rise and Fall of American Apparel (PT 2)

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

On today’s episode of the Daily Stoic podcast Ryan speaks with author Kate Flannery on how having worked for American Apparel gave Kate a bad reputation, It’s hard to get someone to see something that their salary depends on them not seeing, the difference between quitting and getting fired along with her first book Strip Tees: A Memoir of Millennial Los Angeles.Strip Tees is her first book where she details her experience in a landscape of rowdy sex-positivity, racy photo shoots, and a cult-like devotion to the unorthodox CEO and founder of American Apparel. The line between sexual liberation and exploitation quickly grows hazy, leading Kate to question the company’s ethics and wrestle with her own. Kate Flannery was born and raised in Northeastern Pennsylvania. She holds a BA in Creative Writing from Bryn Mawr College and currently works for the Emmy Award-winning RuPaul’s Drag Race.IG: @KateCFlannerywww.kate-flannery.com✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stove Podcast. I hope you enjoyed part one last week of my episode with Kate Flannery, whose memoir of millennial Los Angeles, strip T's. Hopefully gives you an insight into things I was wrestling with in my 20s, the things that informed me as a writer, as a person. You know, if you've read, he goes to the enemy, I'd sort of talk about this at the beginning. My life was falling apart, I'd gotten in way over my head, I'd picked up tons of bad habits.

And I was also watching this person that I admired and had seen a lot in me and instilled a lot of confidence in me, given me a ton of opportunities. I'd saw Dove implode and betray so many of the values that had made me initially admire him and made him someone that I wanted to work with. That was a crushing, devastating, life-altering, transition period. It just happened to me that I was writing a book

about ego as this man destroyed his life's work. For really no reason other than wanting to control it, being unable to admit air, being unwilling to surround himself with competent people who challenged him, being unwilling to have any sort of discipline or boundaries or limits in his life. It was a tragic story. It actually aligns today's guest Kate Flanner who is in the bookstore I gave her a copy of what is one of Dove's favorite stories, the apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz, which

is a movie with Richard Dreyfus. I don't think Dough ever read the book. He would have seen the arc of the hustler how it ends up. And I'm sure he hasn't read Kate's great book, but he should. I'm glad to have read it. It was really excited to have her on the podcast. We did a two-hour episode, so we brought you part one earlier in the week. And here's part two, Strip Tees, a memoir of Millennial Los

Angeles by the great Kate Flannery who spent a good chunk of the early 2000s. Before I got there, Adam American Apparel watching the company sort of expands from just a couple of stores into the Behemoth into the sort of huge trendy, popular controversial retailer that I went to work at, right around my 20th, 21st birthday, and I was really excited to have this conversation, and I hope you're interested,

and I hope you can listen to it, and check out her great new book. You can follow her on Instagram at KateCFlanery. You can go to Kate-dashflannery.com and you can grab Strip T's a memoir of Millennial Los Angeles at the Painted Porch Amazon. Anywhere books are sold, enjoy. I had a moment. Did you, since we're just quoting television shows now, did you watch Succession?

No, I didn't. So there's a scene towards the end of Succession where the Rupert Murdock character takes his bodyguard out to like some diner in New York City, you know, his family's all alienated from him and just goes like, you're my buddy, you're my pal, you're my best friend. And you're just like, oh, this is so sad. I remember one time he had me over to the house to do something. And then it was like, he was like,

do you want to go have dinner? You like, we went like antique shopping. And then we had like dinner. and it was just like, I realized he didn't have anyone to do these things with. And that this, the cost of all of the success was that he was this machine that couldn't be turned off. And what seemed like this immensely rich and envious life was probably a prison in some ways. And it was a prison built on what also must have been a profoundly sad and awful childhood. You think? I think so. Well, this is another book. So did you ever have you want to be a apprenticeship of Daddy Travis?

Did you ever hear of a talk about this? No. So it's a novel, which he of course did not read. But the novel was made into a movie with Richard Dreyfus. And he's a sort of Jewish hustler kid, like a street kid who's ambitious, who's like, got this knack for sales and trading things out. And it's based in Montreal, like all the places that Dove would have went as a kid,

like all his favorite restaurant. And so I remember one time he had me pirate the movie to put it on the internet, like the company served her. So he could, whenever he would hire some kid, he'd be like, go to his link and watch, you know, wait 48 lots of power, watch this movie. It was that movie. And so at one point, I was like,

I'm gonna go actually, I watched the movie, I stomped around all the plays in Montreal and one of those things where the whole center of the company has to go to the space. But I was like, I'm gonna actually read the book. And so I read the book. And the premise of the book is basically, since Hustler Kid, who has the love of this

young his girlfriend and then he has a father and a grandfather and the grandfather's the person he admires more than anything in the world. I mean the grandfather basically says something like you're not a man if you don't own land. Yeah. Like that basically it was this sort of Jewish experience that you had to like make your stake in the world, get successful and then no one could fuck with you. And then you were like, you were not a nobody, you made it.

And so he's this hustler, he's trying to do this. And he ends up, long story short, ends up basically betraying all his values to get this piece of land. That when he brings his grandfather to see his grandfather's like, disowns him because he knows what he did. That the kid misses it. And so I always got this sense that Dove had this sense that if you could just become

successful enough, do enough, be popular enough, you know, somebody that rejected him early would love him, whether it was his parents or probably more realistically, whatever, whoever the quintessential American apparel girl was, that was the girl that stood him up for prom or whatever, right, or humiliated him in some way. There was some like urge to, if he just did this stuff, then he would not feel bad. That this stress and pain would go away. And one of the most painful lessons you learn in life is that you cannot fix internal pain with external accomplishments or accumulation. So he gets to the literally,

like one of the highest mansions in Los Angeles. Like you're looking down on the rest of Los Angeles and you're a fashion icon, you have more than anything you could possibly want and you're just sad and lonely. Yes, which is why with Los Angeles apparel, I, you know, of course he thinks he'll do that again. Yeah, he has to do it again. He can't do anything else. He will just roll the ball up the hill,

even if it rolls all the way back down. He's kind of rolling up the hill. Like some young person was like, oh, I didn't know that Los Angeles apparel used to be American apparel I had no idea if they only know Los Angeles apparel. Right. Like it's But it and it's interesting. It's like his aesthetic is so Singular and unique that it it almost can't be Based on any kind of like rational like I think this looks good. good. It's something like psychosexual that's like implanted in his brain. It's a conversation.

Yeah. This is the image he wants to portray, and why is that? This is the world he wants to live in. Do you know what I mean? Where people dress this way and things look this way. Oh yeah. This is, it's like, it helped me understand certain artists

that it's like, oh, it's not just like, oh, you like painting this. It's like, this is something that's like inserted between you and the world. And that's how you fundamentally see the world. And you can't not see it any other way. Yeah, that's why he's so emancipable. That's why the company just totally imploded. Yeah. Because you cannot change Dubjarni. You can't convince him, you can't use logic. He is who he is,

and it's and still is. And it's again, we we think these things are about money or power, and it's it's so clearly something way deeper than that because he had like hundreds of millions of dollars of reasons to not do this. And he can't not do it. So I was involved in the board decided to fire him and I found out that I'd sort of written out this email. Like the board was so disconnected and so they were sort

of like, because he wanted it that way, he picked, it was a hand-picked board of people who liked them. And so they kind of like, we don't know what's happening, because I wrote this thing, and I eventually found out that this email had made its way back towards Doug, because it came up in one of the lawsuits. But I sort of wrote down this email of all this, all this problems. And so when they, they fired him, they said they basically went to him and they said, look, you've got this is the meeting where he's bringing the shoes in to show off these new shoes. I think so. And he's like, you know, he thinks, you know, even though the share price is 70 cents, banks won't lend to him. Sales are cratering. You know, he's been sued a gazillion times.

He's firing all the people left in the coming. And, you know, he's just spent months living in this shipping facility in Lamaurata. And, you know, he thinks it's gonna be rubber stamp as usual and instead they're basically like, look, this is gonna go one of two ways. You can resign as CEO, keep all your shares, which are currently worth tens of millions, but if we turn it around, you'll be a billionaire,

and we'll give you a million dollar a year consulting contract. And we won't tell anyone why this happened, right? Or this is the press release we're going to send out. And you're going to be terminated for caught. So lose everything. Yes. He's like, you know, eating nescafe raw cold water, whatever, just addicted to caffeine and and and he's like, I need to think about it for a second, walks out of the room. And then he comes back and he goes, I reject both options and proceeds to try this hostile takeover which, you know, he must have known was not gonna be successful. This is the standard general. This is the standard general.

It's not gonna be successful. And, and, and, I mean, he goes to them and he said, and he says, I've been wrongfully terminated from my company, I've done nothing wrong. And they said, really, you've done nothing wrong. He said, I've never harmed a fly. I've never harassed an employee. I've never, and they were like, okay,

we'll put up all your shares as collateral. And if you are vindicated by an investigation, you'll, will give you the company, whatever. And if not, you know, you're going to lose everything. And he's like, I want that. And, and he might, the, he must have known, like, I knew if he wouldn't pass this investigation. And I was only one of dozens of people that they interviewed, you know. And so he there was there was some part of him that basically said like this you talked about you identifying him. He said I would rather it not exist than me not have it because it is me. You know, and so he effectively destroyed the company.

He torched the whole thing for everyone. And he did it all from a booth at farmer voice across the company. He torched the whole thing for everyone. And he did it all from a booth at Farmer Boys across the street. Oh, that Farmer Boys. Because he was banned from the premise. And so he set up shop in that Farmer Boys. Oh my God, I did not know that detail. And he would just watch who came and went

and the employees that were still loyal would go over there for lunch. And they basically just plotted destroying the thing that he and he might he there's no rational way not to have known that how it would go any other way, but then it was beyond rational. Yeah, that doesn't matter. I mean, I'm sure I think he did think he could do it and pull it off. He spilled off everything else. Yes, that's you realize what the superpower is, is the ability to so convince yourself

of something that you're able to convince other people. I mean, it's changed. That's his story. Well, it changed how I, I mean, I watched representatives from George Chorris' company come in and he convinced them to give him a ton of money. And then Ron Berk, like sharks, you know, and he convinced them like, I'm not crazy.

Everyone else is crazy. I can be reformed. You know, his thing was that he could convince other people that white was black and black was white. And that he could bend reality to his will. Yes, yeah. So when people are like, why didn't you just leave?

Like, do you know what we were up against? Well, and for him, why didn't he walk? He couldn't. Yeah. Oh, no, it could not. No. No. That's why he's still doing it.

Yeah. Yeah, it's the same people, some of the same people. A lesson I took out of it too was, okay, so the whole idea is fucking nuts, right? Like, we're going gonna make clothes in America. We're gonna pay people a fair wage. We're going to do it in an old building in Los Angeles. We're gonna own our own stores.

We're gonna do our own marketing. Every part of that, it's gonna be done in this one little building. Each one of those is probably a bad business decision. Cumatively, it's deranged. It flies in the face of all conventional understanding of the apparel and fashion business in the 2000s, right? And it worked. He did it. And it not just worked, but he was paying, you know, people

who's other choices to work in a sweatshop, they were suddenly making a family, you know, two two were making 80, a hundred grand a year with benefits, you know, two, two, two, we're making 80, 100 grand a year with benefits, you know, in great working conditions. He did it. Yep. So the problem, I think, for entrepreneurs, artists, people, leaders is like, everyone tells you that it can't work and that you're a madman for considering it. And then you do it. How do you then go? I should probably hire a competent CPA. Because we need a director of finance, we need whatever, because the board says it's a good idea. You're like, fuck the board. Fuck what the Wall Street Journal says. You know, fuck what the lawyers say we have to do. They told me none of this would work in the first place.

And that in that success, you are sowing the seeds of your own destruction. So true. So true. It's the eye alone can fix. Yes. Yes. You're like everyone who offers me advice or feedback or warnings is a hater plotting my destruction. When in fact, they're like, people have driven off this cliff a lot of times. is a hater plotting my destruction. When in fact, they're like, people have driven off this cliff a lot of times and we're trying to help you. Yeah, so we're showing you some red flags here. Yeah, when we say you should sleep,

or we should sleep like in your bed, and you should by the way, not sleep with your employees. This is not like our personal moralizing judgment. This is like these are the sirens that you know destroy the ships in these waters. Exactly. And you know his reaction when people would say, you know, you shouldn't sleep in your place. The heart wants what it wants to sort of stay like a house mile on his face. Like yeah, that's your ruin, the heart, the ego, whatever that is.

Yeah, a friend of mine interviewed Dev on a podcast. I think it's me the last one he did and he was, he was like, Dev, I want to like describe to you this hypothetical. He was like, you're running American apparel and I'm Wall Street or I'm the board and I say, you can't eat peanuts. Just can't eat anymore peanuts. And if you eat anymore peanuts, like you lose everything,

why can't you just not eat peanuts? And Dev just goes, I should be able to sleep with who I want. Like, even like, it was so, it was so true. Like you couldn't even continue to concede of the metaphor. No, no, that Alan Goury.

Yeah, like, for him. Yeah, just straight up libertarianism. Right. Well, it's, yeah, it's a lack of discipline and ethics and empathy. Well, of course, yeah. All of these things that ultimately, like running, running a company that you do all these already crazy things in economically can't also have this other liability on top of it. Yeah. But ultimately, you probably realize the company was always a means to an end to do the other thing. So it's not like like like he didn't he didn't want to run the company. He wanted what he thought the company would give him, which is thanks. So to say, hey, it's like the person wants to be president

because they want the power, not because they have the policy. So you're like, hey, your thing is engendering the policy. They're like, fuck your policy ideas. Like all I want is to be the guy at that desk. Yes, yes, for sure. Yes, that's American peril. That's such an interesting way to think about it. Which way?

What'd you just say? Oh, and then who are we? Because I do think that he has a genuine concern for those factory employees. I mean, you know, he was crying about it when all that was going down. Yeah, it's like he sacrificed all that though. Yeah, he, I talk about this in the book, I'm writing now. He had this north star and then like, because I remember one time,

to speak of a human moment, I remember one time we were talking and someone was saying something like, if you do this, you'll make more money. Like some, if we move this here, we do this here, and he said like, if I wanted to make, if all make more money. Like some, if we move this here, we do this here, and he said like, if I wanted to make, if all I cared about was making money, I'd have become a drug dealer. And that stuck with me. And I was like, oh yeah, we make these decisions,

we make these decisions, we pick these paths in life, where we're saying money is not my main thing. And then, all we think about is money, right? Which, it's like, you already said this is more important. And so that was great. He was like, you already said this is more important. And so that was great. He was like, oh yeah, this is a business, and it is a capitalist business, is designed to make a profit.

It doesn't work, it doesn't make a profit. But his point was, profits not the main thing, or even the, it's not the only thing or even the main thing. But the problem is that sort of North Star of like, hey, what I'm actually trying to do is, you know, make a great company, not fucking anyone over in the process, blah, blah, blah. This gets another North Star, maybe the lower down on the body becomes his priority.

And now he's making some other things leading him in these different decisions. And when he was making the decisions based on the North Star, he was doing heroic, wonderful, amazing things. And then when he was driven by something maybe more primal or sexual, it made horrible decisions that had horrible consequences for him and for other people. Yeah, definitely.

But those two things were always there right from the beginning. Yes. That Jane Mag article, he was devastated when it came out. I just heard through the grapevine, but he got so much press from it, you know, how could that have been that end of it? But or even to, and I'm sure you heard his explanation for what was happening, but who would endanger everything that they had to do that? And he was, oh, this isn't a person, this is a series of compulsions inside of a skin suit. You know, like, that's not what,

you would, a person, regularly regular person wouldn't do that. Everyone leaves the legacy. I like Mr Gorbachev. We can do business together. For some, the shadow falls across decades, even centuries. It is unacceptable to have figures like roads glorified. But it also changes. Reputations are reexamined by new generations who may not like what they find. Picasso is undeniably a genius, but also a less than perfect human.

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like chestnuts on an open fire. They'll try to get my heart to grow a few sizes, but it's not gonna work, honey. Your family will love the show. As you know, I'm famously great with kids. Follow Tiz the Grinch Holiday Talk Show on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can. Follow Tiz the Grinch Holiday Talk Show on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Tiz the Grinch Holiday Talk Show early and add free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Maybe the argument is like they were separate or these things were intertwined. You know, you have your, there's like a civil war

you have your North and your South, right? And sometimes you're motivated by one, sometimes the other, but the good parts winning out most of the time. Or you wouldn't have gotten as far as you were. The problem for him is then, he's not sleeping, he's not taking care of himself, he has no hobby, he has no family, he has no,

nothing balancing them out. And the ability to regulate, to know, hey, this is a trivial gift to the lower urge, or this is a, this is, I'm going all in on this thing. You lose the ability to regulate and to make decisions and to evaluate risks, and you end up inevitably imparalling all of it because. Yes, I know, that's the saddest part. Yeah. Like I come from a little town in Pennsylvania, it's just like a hillbilly hamlet. But, you know, there were factories there.

There were clothing factories, there was a vinyl factory, there were all factories. And then it was a coal town, and then when that fizzled out, then there were these factories, at least providing jobs and dignity to the people that live in this valley. And then because of Democrats, because of NAFTA,

all of those jobs were sent away. And now it is just an opioid pit. And when I saw what was happening with American apparel, I, which was just the effects of all those jobs leaving when I was in high school, we're just sort of starting to show. And that's actually what my second book's about. I'm really excited about it.

And I saw like, look how he's doing this. We could do this everywhere. We could bring those jobs back. And I mean, it's more important now than ever. Yeah, I think for me is like all, everyone I knew, everyone in my generation was celebrating was all like internet entrepreneurs, making like social networks and apps. And I was like, this is real.

This is stuff you can touch. This is a building that they're not going, Hey, you know, Instagram just sold for a billion dollars. We have eight employees. Yeah. This was like we're celebrating the fact that 12,000 people work here. Yes. You know, and that is all true and real and good. Yeah.

And they're cheering when he walks by. Yeah. I mean, you just need to see that once. And that's what made the tragedy of all of it. Oh, my gosh. Awful. And then toward the end that he would, that there was no part of him, you know,

it's like, look, for all of Nixon's flaws, he basically resigns so as to not throw the country into a constitutional crisis. He respects as much as he wants the office for himself. He so lionizes the office and the idea of the office that he leaves before it's destroyed. Yes. And Dove had this moment, right, to go,

to jig his up, I'm still rich. I'm still, you know, I still got these groupies around. I'm gonna walk away and I'm not going to throw, you know, 8,000 sewers onto the streets, but he can't do it. And that is what Dirty Cravitz is. Like he has this idea that he wants this land and the land is everything.

And even when basically by cutting corners his friend gets paralyzed and he could have spent the, like he trades everything to get this thing. Yeah. And the grandfather's not wrong. He goes, I see what you become to get this. Yes. And that's the tragedy. It's like the tragedy of American apparel

is that the guy first says he cares about his workers, but he only cares about the blue collar workers. Doesn't mind exploiting and abusing, you know, the woman making $30,000 a year or the college intern or whatever. And then when push really comes to shove and he has to choose between himself, all of those people, he chooses himself.

Yes, yes. I said that to him towards the end of the book. You said that to him? Yeah, I said something like. You're in like a such a unique position of being able to say things like that to him. Like end of life. You said that to him? Yeah, I said something like, you're in like a such a unique position of being able to say things like that to him. Like that, I could never, I it wouldn't have, I've never seen anyone stand up to him or,

or I said something like, I was like, I agreed that you should have been fired, but even if I hadn't, who you were and what you did after, made you worthy of that happening to you. And what did you say? Of course nothing, you know, just, you know, a wall of victimology and anger and resentment and all this stuff. You couldn't see it. But because of course he never did anything wrong. He was totally innocent

and he's always been persecuted. Which I should have seen from the beginning. Of course. But that's how I said, it's like, even if he had been innocent, an innocent person wouldn't have An innocent person wouldn't have taken it all with them. Yes, yes, that's so true. Yeah. Just like a person, I think in your book, it must have been a moment for you when you saw this stuff happening around you. And maybe it's wrong, maybe it's right, maybe,

and then something happened to you that wasn't him. Like an employee who I, uh, we should talk about. Yeah. An employee. I, I, I think I could guess through the pseudonyms. Um, but, but somebody basically jumps on you and, Kavanaugh is me. I think that's sort of the best description of that event.

Horrible. Uh, but, but his instinct wasn't to protect you. I think that's sort of the best description of that event. Oh, horrible. But his instinct wasn't to protect you. When Doug finds out about it, his instinct is, how do I make this go away? So it doesn't inconvenience me. And fundamentally, what happened to you is not any less awful than a person paying some refugee or migrant worker

eight cents an hour to so close. It's exploitation and it's abuse and it's wrong. And he had just decided that some things you cared about and some things you didn't. It's so true. Yes. And turned it into his sort of like political ideology. You know, you're stronger than this.

Don't be a victim. Be an example to the other girls. You just let this roll off your shoulder and he called everybody into the back room and lined them all up, not the offender. But, you know, the girls who wouldn't let me stay in the company apartment. So I had to stay in the boys apartment.

And he just went down the line and just screamed at them. And I remember them being so ashamed and it made me feel so good. Like that, you know, he was like, you know, that guy's gonna salute you. You know, what's wrong with you? Sort of dressing down their work ethic and it felt good.

Like I wanted to hear that. It felt like he cared about me. But I mean, looking back at the scheme of things, you know, that was that was my compensation. That was all I got. Right. Yeah. And so it's for a while. It was, I mean, it wasn't enough, but it worked. You know, I was like, yeah, it felt good. Yes. Even though I was being so horrifically, you know, mistreated. Yeah. Yeah. And the what it's he hadn't done anything wrong. Yeah. yeah. And what he hadn't done anything wrong, right? So that his impulse was to protect the other person,

right, gives you a sense of his own understanding of all of it. Do you know what I mean? Yes, definitely. I mean, he had to have empathized with this abuser. He let him keep his job, you know. If we start drawing lines that you can't jump all over one of the women that work for the company, who among us is not, you know, that's what he's saying. Exactly, exactly.

So how on earth could he get this guy fired? That's all I wanted. I wanted him fired. He wasn't fit to be traveling. He shouldn't have been staying in apartments. He had substance abuse problems. He shouldn't be traveling with the girls. All I wanted was for him to be fired.

And he stayed, we worked together. I mean, not really, but we would, I'd walk into the route, I'd do interviews and stores and he'd be there working. I always got this sense that he had been horribly bullied and abused as a kid, like at school and not by parents. And the result of what this was, he had gotten this sort of real sympathy slash, like identification with people who were being accused

or criticized or whatever, because I don't remember, he was all, someone would do something horrible or screw up and people in the company would mad at that person. And his instinct was always to defend and protect that person. Oh my gosh, absolutely. I was in Boston and I uncovered this scheme.

I almost forgot about in the book where the manager was, had like her family on the payroll, her boyfriend, they didn't work there. But she was just miss, just embezzling all of this money from the company. And I discover it when I'm there. I like write this like email. It's like three pages long. Like this is going on.

And this is going on. Like here I am. I'm seeing it with my own eyes and looking at the paperwork. And I got a call back from one of his gals. And she was like, that was a really long email. I'm like, yeah, did you see what I uncovered? And she said, Dove says that she's a really nice girl. Yeah.

And that was it. She kept her job. I went on to the next city. She, I mean, who knows what happened after I left, but Dove says she's a nice girl. Yeah, there was, I remember we were doing these warehouse sales, because he would make all this inventory.

Yeah. It was obviously not gonna sell. Yeah, I love those sales, the factory stores. Yeah, it's best. But, so much of it in retrospect was obviously just bad managerial decision. That's why we had this stuff. And then because he was so attached to it,

he could never just get rid of it. Right. And so we would sell in these warehouse. And I remember we, I was doing all the marketing for them. We had these successful ones in the US where we're going to take it on the road. We're doing one in London and one in Paris, maybe. And so this is right when Facebook started blowing up. So we, the marketing just takes off at this level that we don't anticipate. So I don't know, we expected that like a thousand people come to sell like 20,000 people RSVP to the Facebook event. So it's taken off on this level. Right. And so I'm like talking to the people who are doing the thing and one of his sort of, you know, there's the Dub girls, but they're also Dub boys. They

were like guys who you couldn't figure out what their role in the universe was. And one of them was in charge. And I remember going, 20,000 people or more are going to show up this thing. You have to be prepared for that. There's going to need to be security. And we went over it multiple times. And they just sort of, you know, just flying with state events.

And so what happens is 20,000 people show up, the store can't, not ready to open, And a riot breaks out. And like 20 police officers were injured in this riot. There's videos of it like people jumping on police cars. It crazy. So this is all obviously happening in the middle of the night, but I'm sort of watching it happen. And, you know, I called Doug. It's like four in the morning. And I go, Doug. And he's the, he, I obviously had already heard about. And the first words out of his mouth were, it's not insert's fault.

Like, not like, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna help these people? I can't believe it. Bavava Bavava, it was, it's not this person's fault. And it obviously wasn't a sexual thing, this is a dude. And, and like, what's the important issue here? The important issue is, is not holding a person accountable. That was the thing. And so there was, I think again, because if people start getting, if we start holding people

accountable for stuff, the whole thing falls apart. You're so, that's so true. Yeah. Yeah, you can see it again and again. Yeah. And so you're like, this isn't a business. This is like somebody's Freudian, like whatever, just at playing. Yes. You know, yes. And then I just kept working. Yeah. Yeah. And then you just say, um, yeah, that's the weirdest. That's the way. Like, how did I think it was going to go? Where did I think it was going to go? Yeah. And then I remember at the, like part of me going like, but now I'm not gonna be able to say that I worked, like I remember thinking like this time would be good

because the company was obviously gonna go on and it would be like, oh, I worked at Apple and the early days. Yeah, not really day assume. But how did I not, I guess I just didn't have the ability to go, is this obviously crashing and burning at some point? Yeah. Like you're trading,

yeah. You're trading your values for item on your resume, putting aside that you don't want a resume, you want to work for yourself. But for this line on a money resume, as if it's not inevitably going to blow itself up. Yeah, absolutely. Did you find when you left when you tried to work people were like they actually saw it as

like not an asset but a liability work? Oh, it was totally. Yeah, I talk about it in stricties. I was like, I'm going to get a new job. I'm going to, you know, who's not going to want me? I did all the hiring for the biggest company, American apparel, who's not gonna want me? No one wanted me.

They were like, because they knew. I had a bad reputation just by default. They wanted to talk, I applied to Betsy Johnson, they wanted to talk about Dove Charnie. What was it like there? To them, I was just sort of like a curiosity. I was an oddity. I was a young person with no other job experience.

And I'm sure they just all assumed I was one of those girlfriends. I've had this weird experience, or as Doug, and there's another one where basically, like when I was young, this sort of successful older man saw potential in me and gave me a position or access that I almost certainly didn't deserve. And I thought it was very exciting and interesting. And I learned a lot. And obviously it set me up to be successful. But as I've left, I've wrestled with this idea of like, were they wrong or were they right?

Do you know what I mean? Like, it's obviously this corrupt fucked up system that's just like picking people that things can be kind of willing soldiers in this thing. But then also you did a great job. Do you know what I mean? Like you, they were getting a great bargain on you. They were paying you a little

and you were actually super competent. But I think I've struggled with this idea of like, did they actually see something in me or was it like a broken system is uh, the broken system is right occasionally, you know, or did they see that I was talented, but I also had this other thing that they could take advantage of. Like I, I've really struggled. Of all the things I should be, you know, sorting through, like, what does this say about me is probably not the main thing I should be thinking about post-American pro, but that is one of the big ones. What do you say about me?

Yeah, I mean, it's such a, it's so character defining. But I, you know, I, I just keep myself a little bit of compassion and grace. I was so young, wrapped up in this. And, you know, maybe I will have some breakdown in 10 years and be like, I fed all those girls to him. And, you know, I do think about that, but I don't know, I

let myself off the hook a little bit. Yeah. Because I was one of them. I was, you know, sure sucked into that system like just so easily. Yeah. I went back and I asked like some of the women that worked for me there. I was like, was I feeding you to this thing? Like, did you feel like, and I like, because this is when I was writing the afterward to Curtis Collins, and I was really like, I was really worried about, like, there's a reason I hadn't asked the question before, you know, like, was I part of the problem, right? Of course. Because I read about like, I read about Harvey Weinstein, these other sort of me, two people, and I was really struck by the role of the, um, like the secretaries or the talent agents that were sending these people to these auditions or buzzing them up, right?

And I, and um, two of them that worked for me, they were like, they were like, look, I don't know about everything else, but they were like, we came from Canada to come work in American Bell and David seen us on a trip and he brought us down and he assigned us to work for you. And they were like, we remember you didn't want us to work for you because you just thought, you know, who are these people? And, and, and, and then he had us staying at the house. And they said the first, they were like, what we remember is, you came into your office first day.

And- Did you work at the factory? Yeah, I had an office on the second floor, right? Next to Ross's office, as you wanted. Yeah. I was down the way a little bit. But they were like, the first thing you said to us was, you got to get the fuck out of those house.

And they were like, we're so grateful. And I had no recollection of that. Oh, wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. Like I was like, okay, there's two paths here. You gotta get off this path. Yes. And so I felt good about that.

And did they? Yes, they did. And they worked for me for four or five years. And they were part of the reason that I didn't leave, is that like I knew that I, yes, they did. And they worked for me for four or five years. And they were part of the reason that I didn't leave is that like I knew that I, I could go, you got to get this person to raise or like I could, I was the intermediary of it. Yeah, for sure. Because there wasn't a lot of hierarchy, right?

No, not at all. And there was at least some respected hierarchy there, which meant more that I could act as a buffer, not even just from the, but the other crazy awful people. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so I felt good about that. But then it's still, it's, I don't know, I've still wrestle with the I by not speaking up how complicit are you. And then also though the reason I was able to work on his removal, ultimately, is that I was still there.

So there's, it's just inherently problematic position of being the adult in the room, is the adult in the room a positive influence or actually a stamp of approval. Yeah, yeah. And if you weren't there doing that gig, who else could be doing it? You know, when I did my hiring after this experience, you know, well really, I wouldn't hire high schoolers. In the beginning, I did it and know what I was doing. But then just because, you know,

they just, I wanted full-timers, I wanted people wanted the health insurance. You know, I went out and hired, you know, people in their mid-20s, people that, you know, have been working in urban outfitters and now they could have their own store. Sure. And like, there was a lot of good in that.

These girls learned how to create businesses and sell businesses. And what other jobs would be giving people someone like me an opportunity like that. I learned so much about how businesses run and so did all the other girls. In fact, my editor was like, that's how we should end in this book.

Just a list of where everybody is now, to really fuck with people. I don't like this ending. People want a didactic wrap up. They want me to say sexism is bad and I was bad. But that's just too easy of an ending for this story. Why do these stories keep happening? At the end of my book, I have a dark choke

where I'm going into TV to work for a man called Les Munevez and he's going to be great. Good, this is a good family man. Yeah. And it has a good reputation, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, these stories, it's not just the American apparel story. Dove is not just this, you know, isolated offender. Sure. And, you know, it's not all bad. A lot of good things came from this company. It taught us a lot of things. It taught me a lot about myself.

And, yeah. Do you see, did a bunch of people that you hired go on to do things? Not people that I hired, because, you know, I sort of lose touch with them. I hire a staff and leave. But the women that worked with me, yes. Yeah, a lot of the women in the book. I think we can even rise.

I mean, look at rise. Like they go on to create their own parallel companies that are wildly successful. Yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't have had the guts. I wouldn't have known I could do it. I had a different read on American bro. I thought it was remarkable.

That company that was so big and so influential, actually didn't have. It didn't seed like a bunch of other big companies. Yeah. Like they're one up, well, funny enough. One of the store designers is the co-founder of WeWork. Oh, now I know. Yeah.

Store designer for, like for the New York stores, he was one of the like architect like build out guys. Yeah, yeah. Miguel something I think is. And then there's a couple other ones, but not you would think that when something falls that talent would go elsewhere. Yeah, I've always wondered how much of it in retrospect was talent if it didn't go on to do other things. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just thinking more, I mean, maybe they're not huge companies, but one of the girls I write about in the book, you know, she went on to just become an entrepreneur. Yeah.

She'll start, she had a little business selling like the rubber bands that go on braces. And she was like, I would go to these like orthodontic fairs. And I would, I would merchandise them just like American apparel. I had every color and she was like, I made so much money and it was all into the table that I had to stop doing it. So she took the money she earned there and she bought a huge piece of land

which is going to turn into a subdivision. Like, she would never, this is someone who doesn't have a college education. Like she learned everything in American apparel, you know, look what she's done. It's so amazing. She's so angry at me, but I really respect her as because of how she came off in the book. She's angry. I know, no, no, because of Dobs reaction to the book. She actually loved the book at first. She posted it on her story. Hey, everybody, I'm in this book. And then the next day she went to Dobs Factory. And then the next morning, I got a text being like, my feelings have changed, I feel exploited,

I can't believe you didn't tell me, you were gonna tell my stories. So that's the power of dub even now. Well, I wanna ask about that in a second, but yeah. I feel like I learned a bunch of lessons like that. Even one from your book, I liked the thing where he was like, you're at some store, and he's like, see this tile?

Oh yeah. And he was like, do you know what the rent is on this tile? That's a, and he says, for people who haven't read it, he was, look at this tile. What do you think the rent on this piece of tile is basically saying, like, I have to sell two t-shirts a day to pay for this tile. He's like, look how many fucking pieces of tile are in this store. Now one argument is, you're the one that put in this expensive tile and you didn't think any of that through. But the other is yeah, you have to think about the cost of just breaking even costs. I remember one time we were we were we just opened a new store,

just started some different channel and you know he said something and he goes, you know, he says something and like the sales are like, you know, a thousand dollars or whatever. And he goes, Ryan, he's like, run rates always start at zero. And I was like, I realized that he was a person who had started at zero and built that to $7, $800 million a year in sales. Like he, and he saw that with each store. It starts with the first day, has zero dollars in sales and the next day, it's million a year in sales. And he saw that with each store.

It starts with the first day, has $0 in sales and the next day, it's $100, 200. And so he had this ability to kind of extrapolate where he had this confidence in himself because he knew where stuff ended up, right? And that run rates always started zero. Something I think about all the time, whenever I'm starting something new.

Like I'm launching a book, I go, the first week starting at zero. But. Like I'm launching a book. I go, the first week, starting at zero. But what matters is where it ends up. It doesn't matter how it's doing right now. Yeah. Right. It doesn't matter what the run rate says. It matters where it ends up.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's responsible for putting those blinders on him. Yeah. How do you experience success? I had another one where he, like I called him to like tell him something good I'd done. And like we just did this and he goes, Brian, never call me to tell me you did your fucking job.

Oh my God, totally. And I was like, oh yeah, that's right. This is literally what I'm supposed to be doing. Why am I, you're not my dad. Why am I trying to get some pat on the back from you? Yeah. Yeah, but God, I lived for those pats on the back. Of course.

Of course, that's the whole system. Yeah. So what was his reaction to the book? And if you heard I haven't heard well, I mean he doesn't read books. So there's no way he wrote this book Yeah, so I think my friend went there and gave him the lowdown. Mm-hmm. He got angry. Yes No, that there's anything in this book that hasn't really been said or done in front of a journalist. There are a few scoops in there that I'm sure he wasn't too psyched on. And I've been waiting in the reviews or pieces on the book for that, you know, we reached out to Dubchary for comment. It finally happened in a Washington Post piece. And it said, you know, we reached out for comment, you know, he didn't comment. And then recently I had a reading where

Yeah. And then recently I had a reading where there's a young woman who works for him who came and she, you know, at the end, I think she's even still living in the big house. Yes. I know with all that stuff happening. And not so much longer, it sounds like. Yeah, I know. I know. Oh, God, so fascinating.

I, so strange, that story. She, you know, I asked her, what does he think? And she was sort of like, oh, you know, I know. So strange that story. I asked her, what does he think? And she was sort of like, oh, I knew there was an opinion, but she wouldn't give it to me. But she said, I talk a lot about this the complicated nature of dove when they do these Q&As. And it's hard to just totally disavow my experience there and be critical of him and him as a businessman

and stuff like that. And she of course, loved that. I think people want me to be like, he's a bad, awful priest, a predator. There's just such a difference between predators like Weinstein and predators like Charney. And then the next day she wrote to me and was like, I just wanna tell you again how much I liked

how you handled yourself in that Q&A. So I really don't know how he feels about it other than. Do you think he sent that person? Yeah. So that doesn't read to you as like intimidation. I didn't intimidate me. But I mean, dude, like one, one, if you're not, you're not, you can't think about that.'re not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not, if you're what if they show up? What if they're yelling? My lawyers like, you want that to happen? It's good for the book. Bring them on. But yeah, that's so interesting.

It could be, it could be an intimidation tactic. Yeah, he's just sort of, I don't know, keeping his hands on the pulse. But I don't know. I'd love to know what he thinks about it, but I have no idea. Yeah, I've never heard from him about anything that I've... Oh yeah. I always started to be fascinating for there to know anything about it, but I have no idea. Yeah, I've never heard from him about anything that I've... Oh, yeah.

I always thought it'd be fascinating for there to be documentary about it, but... Well, do you know about this Netflix documentary? No. It's Greenlit. Oh. Yeah, I thought for sure they would be talking to you about it. Well, so at a certain point, I just decided I don't owe anyone interviews about my experience

at American Parallel. Because I did one, he was on that podcast startup. Oh yeah, yeah, that was a good one. And I did like five hours of interviews for it. And it was interesting, it was cathartic, it was actually a great episode. And they really got some stuff, like they got him like losing his mind.

Right in reading, yeah, that was a good one. That might be the one where the girl and her partner are fighting, that was a good representation. That might be the one where the the girl and her partner are fighting. That was a good representation of although there were some people in there that I was like, you're nobody, you did not do anything. Yeah. But all this I basically was like, I have to move on and live my life. I don't I don't know anyone like a part-time job like a part-time job, you know, as a spokesperson as a spokesperson for ex employees. And so I just basically decided, I turned down all of them, I don't do them.

And it's been sort of healing and also cleared up time. And then every once in a while, there's one I go, oh, maybe I should have done that one, but it's just because every, I'm glad we're doing this, but every time I see some from America, I'm like, I could spend like eight hours. It's just so much to process. So much, yeah, so much to process.

Yeah, and you realize you're just carrying it around. And so anyway, that's kind of my thing. But yeah, we've fascinated. There should be a really good documentary about this. I think this might be good. It's by this production company, Raw, they did like the Tinder Swendler and don't run with cats. I mean, if I didn't have this book,

I would never want to do something like that. I'm like a very private person, and I just put out this memoir, spilling my guts. But I really am. It's so hard to do the social media thing for this book. I really don't like that. But now I've got to promote this book. So I'm like, damn, I got to be on my Netflix documentary.

I met with them. And then of course in the selling of the option, it just precludes me from doing anything like that. So, you know, it's so hard to get a movie made, you know, I'll be so incredibly lucky if it happens. And here's this green lit documentary that would be so good for my book, but I can't do it. But I think I, I mean, the thing with these documentaries, though, is the people that you really want to hear from would never in a million years. Right, they're going to do it when they're like set. They'll still be with them when they're 17.

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Fair point. Yeah! Which is so tragically sad. I know. I mean, it's beenically sad. I know. I mean, it's been 20 years, you know. So what is that? Why can't certain people get away? Because I think that's like, you see it happen

in other facets of life where you're like, this person has taken everything from you. Yeah. Like humiliated you. Yeah. Like you have not gotten a good end of this part and you're still. Yeah.

He snips out vulnerable people. And I don't think it's something he does on purpose. We were talking about Michael Jackson, you know, my sister, who's a psychologist, she was like, how did Michael Jackson know to, you know, snow, the parents and like, how was he such a skilled manipulator? Like it's not something you learn. It's just like this innate thing in you.

And that's dope. You know, he's just like this innate thing in you. And that's dope. He's so charismatic. He's a very complex predator because he's not a violent, you know, I'm gonna drug your drink predator. But does he, you know, he still has those tools within him? I mean, he still somehow manages to pick these vulnerable people that will stay with him this long.

Yeah, that was understanding that trauma, the way trauma can affect a person. Like I remember I read something that sort of changed. They were like, if you grew up watching your dad be your mom, right? You're not just seeing this is how men treat women, but you're seeing or even inheriting whatever it is that makes a woman attracted to a person that does that. So you're actually getting it from both sides. Like we think it's like, oh, it's just that the person doing the overt act that's the problem. But actually it's both, right? You're getting it both. And so, yeah, there must be just some profound codependency in some of these folks that make you go

because again, when the person's on the top of the world, there's an economic logic to it. There's a fun, sexy, good energy to want to be in the bunker with this person. Absolutely. Like who marries Kanye West now? You know, like that's, it's that. It's that energy. Or even though I mean, Dubs like, now I want to be in the Kanye West business. And you're like, oh, that's because when one tribe kicks you out, like if the trendy cool tribe kicks you out, and then there's the deplorables over here, you'd think you'd be able to exist here, because that's bad, but it's actually you can't be in limba.

So you end up being driven into the arms of the other people who your objections to fall away pretty quickly because they like you and you have a shared enemy, which is these people. Yes, no, absolutely. One of the girls in my book, Carly, we were talking, before she read the book and became angry with me, she was like, you know, I don't feel victimized by Dove.

I feel more victimized by people like Ross, who used me, you know, she took a lot of those photos, you know, who sort of used me to impress Dove. And she said, you know, what Dove and I had was something special. I was just like knocked over. Like 20 years later, she said, is you guys had something special?

You and hundreds of girls, but you had something special and that's his skill. Yeah. You know, every girl feels like that. And that's why there's some of them. A lot of them are still with him. He makes them feel special. He makes he I mean, he made me feel special. I'm sure he made you feel special. Mm-hmm.

Very much so. Very good at that. Yeah, and I had to do work on my own child. It's my my sister works for someone nowhere like Dove, but like on a spectrum of that kind of leader. A lot of corporate culture is like that, certainly in Raldi television. And my aunt was like, what do you think that is?

And I never thought about it. And it's interesting to go, oh, yeah. So there must be some, what are you doing, Dad? You know, like there's some energy what are you doing, dad? You know, like, there's some energy, like, that makes you go, I need this person's approval or I need them to see me or I need to be part of that inner circle, inner sanctum or whatever. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. There was another one maybe you might, like this, I remember one time. Did you get called into these like meetings, which weren't really meetings, they were just like two hours of random. Like him, yeah, I was just going to say, er, ranching meeting absolutely.

Yeah, so I would often get called to the ones on the 7 4, the factory. And I remember we, it'd be like, you'd be walking and talking and then you're in there and then go, go get this person and go. And it was like, suddenly, you realize like the whole company getting flashbacks. The whole company has been called in, right? And so I remember it struck me one time, like nobody's working because everyone's in here. I think everyone's here. Yes.

And I said to one of the other creative directors, not Ross, I said, you know, what was that? You know, and she goes, the thing I'm out of is, he wants an audience a little bit more than he wants to be successful. I was like, oh, that's it. Yeah, for him, again, the company was the accidental byproduct of wanting the people who have to listen to him, you know, just like again, yeah, like the person, the political career

is the byproduct of wanting to be chosen or wanting to be the the person with their finger on the button, right? And yeah, just going to oh yeah, for him, it's this desire to perform to be the center of attention would be attended to that everything else is the buy. And so I'm just walking around in this underwear like perfect symptom of that. Like yeah, yeah, so it's the show. But what I've tried to do, especially, as I've got an older, is go, like, my job is not to make a character study this person, but to go, what in this person is similar to something in myself?

Like, where do I have things where what I really like to do is be angry more than I'd like to solve the problem? Or, you know what I mean? Like, where do I have those tendencies and then how do I chip away at them? That's pretty good. Yeah. Maybe I should start doing that.

I feel like you did a good job in the book. I thought you, you, especially for a thing that I think you could very easily, for your experience, just be like, in my 20s, I worked at this place, those that, you know what I mean? Like, like, it's, it's, it wasn't like, I mean, in case you had the business cards, but you weren't like, it was your identity to the world, like no one would have to know, right? But for clearly, you decided to go back and think about what it meant, what parts of you

it triggered, what, you know, which is, what memoir is, right? It's like action. The event, it doesn't have to be actually an action-packed crazy story filled with hijinks. It's really what does it mean to you, and then by understanding what it means to you, what does the reader learn about themselves? Yeah, definitely. Yes. I think when people finish this book with a judgment, how could you? It says more about them than it does about me, because this book is how anyone can be sucked into that.

You know, here's the gymnastics that I went through. It wasn't a character flaw. It was, you know, how someone can get sucked into a cult and abusive relationship and stay and stay for a long time. Yeah, how does your conscience get chipped away at by your work or your identity or your tribe or whatever? Yes, how can you become debased without realizing it? How can things just warp before your very eyes? Yeah, that's the line in the thing. How do you, you fool yourself in the thing you can deal in filth and not become filthy? Yes, yes. You can't, you can't. It's so true.

There's a question I heard that the things you work on work on you. And ultimately you're being changed by it as you're doing. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I got obviously my, because my first book was not really a memoir of American Apparel was more like what it meant about the media and that kind of place. Yeah, that book helped sell my book. Oh really? At the top of my proposal, I, your book, that book helped sell my book. Oh really?

I know right at the top of my proposal, I was like, Ryan Haughty, pitch this book about Ring for American Parallel. Look how everyone responded. Well, let me tell you, I have that book. Yeah, nobody. I just like put that at the very top. That's going at the top.

It's, it's funny because when that came out, everyone was just super mad at me. Like they were like, like I was, you know, like, there is this, it felt like a lot of shooting the messenger and I remember going in and something like, you know, I didn't have to write this book. Like, like, I could have just kept doing it. Like, to this idea that this is like good for me,

I don't think you understand how this works. Like, and for you, for people, like, you could have just kept working there. Yeah. And you could still be working there now, like some of these people who basically have sort of jobs for life. Yeah. Um, their lives are their jobs.

Yeah, but, but you're, I chose not to for a reason. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not saying I don't have things that I regretter feel ashamed of that, but things that like, I don't have to answer for. But I'm only answering for them because I told you I did them. You know, like, like, it didn't have to go this way. You did not. I was like, especially that really upset me with the media stuff. It's like, you could have found this stuff out, but you didn't. Because for your own reasons,

you didn't want to know certain things. Or it was hard for you to know some things. So you rather just talk about what the ads mean or what they represent, right? And I really hated that thing where they'd go, she looks barely legal. And it's like, so first off, the phrase barely legal means legal. Right? And second, now you're saying it doesn't even, you're

saying, you're double confirming that this thing is legal. You're just saying you don't like it is what you're saying. You're saying it's weird, which it is, but there's a difference between weird and what you're implying. But like, that's not the issue. As you say in the book, like, the issue is issue is that that is an actual person. And that the photo is capturing what happened before the things that you should be upset about happen. Yes. Yes. Yes. And by the way, actually, it might not even be a sexual thing

that happened. What actually happened is that you have a person making $11 an hour working 90 hours a week. What you think is happening is not what's happening. Yes, yes, that's not the issue here. It's an issue, but it's not the big issue. So the other thing I've wrestled with them, we can wrap up. But what was always hard for me, so my job was doing public relations for a person who was guilty of stuff. But the tricky part is, and I'm sure you saw some of this, and this isn't a thing that our culture has the ability to handle, especially in a world where we have to say things like believe women

because women are often not believed. But some of these people are problematic. Do you know what I mean? And like, ultimately, the lawyer who filed most of the lawsuits against Dub, ultimately represented him in the lawsuit against the board where he argued that was innocent of all the things, right? So, one of those has to not be true. And also that same lawyer and one of his clients, when I was 20 years old, 21 years old, broke into my email and leaked all of it. Like, there's a police and there's a whole thing. So, like, I had this sense of, and I think this allowed me to see what I

To not see what I needed to see was that so horrifying Do you know what I mean these were these were complicated? Yeah, it wasn't as clear cut as and your person did X. Yeah, they deserve why and you're 23 when this is happening I mean you're even though yeah, probably yeah, probably yeah, must have been it was like 2008 maybe I thought my whole life is over. Yeah, yeah, I probably yeah, probably yeah, must have been it was like 2008 maybe. Um, I thought my whole life is over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine how dramatic that must have been. Um, which I mean, it was my fault in some ways, but whatever, but the point is this wasn't. This isn't, this wasn't Aaron Brockovich.

Shit. Do you know what I mean? Like this was, this was complicated. And that's made it hard for me as I've left to go like, should I, you know, how have you thought about that? Yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, I sort of left myself off the hook a little bit. Yeah. You know, I just really feel like he is the one responsible. And I am a victim too. I mean, not have been sleeping with him. Um, but I, you know, I like haplessly got sucked in. Yeah. Is that what you mean? No, no, I mean, I, yeah, I do, but I mean also as we wrestle societally with me to and predator, etc. Yeah. What you see it, what you saw firsthand in American pale is that it

was complicated. Right? Like, like, hand in American pale is that it was complicated. Oh, yeah. Like, like, like, it was like some of the stuff you got in trouble with was, for was actually, like, was unfair. And then the things that he didn't get in trouble for actually were wrong. And I think that's what fucked with my compass the most. It's like, I happened to know in this instance, I've met you and I was there. And then in this instance, I saw this other thing and what the fuck was that?

Yeah. And those were separated in some cases by years. Yes. And so, yeah. See, you worked with him more than I did. He was almost like a larger than like cartoon character. So I did see certain dichotomies, but when I thought about him,

I just sort of idealized him as this sort of funny, boss that was like me who wasn't really like a boss. Not like any boss I had had before. He was like me, girls, I'm not like a mom. Yeah, he's the boss for sure. Yeah. I was only me and girls. I'm not like a mom. Yeah, he's the cool boss for sure. Yeah. I was just totally in drinking all the coolate. It brought you know,

it had to take some really dark stuff for me to, to realize there's like really bad stuff happening here. And I stayed. No, I was afraid. For me, that was actually one of the kind of the breaking points was going, I believed you on these other ones. Yeah. And then it kept happening. was actually one of the kind of the breaking points was going, I believed you on these other ones.

And then it kept happening. So even if it's complicated, you are continually putting yourself in the situations which is unfair to everyone who works here. Yes. Like even if this is 20% exaggerated, even if it's wholly made up, you know, there's one way to solve this.

And you can't do that thing. And so for you to circle the wagons and say, let's all protect the thing, it's like, actually you're the one that is repeatedly jeopardizing. Which is its own psychological, I've seen people say this about Trump, you know, they're like, I believe in what Trump stands for. The problem is he's not

art, like, artful enough about it. And it's like, I get it because it's like, you're a true believer and you think he's the problem because he's jeopardized it. Where you haven't gotten to the places, you go, this stuff is fucked up. Yes, this is the wrong stuff. It's bad. Yes. Yeah, totally. That is a really, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That he just kept doing it is again, it's like even you don't get falsely accused 50 times. No, no, definitely not.

No. Yeah. That's the other thing, because I wrote the book about medium manipulation. I have heard from basically in the intervening 10, 11 years, I've heard from pretty much everyone that's ever been canceled or like accused of something. Like against my will in most cases.

Like someone gives them the book and then they reach out. And it's, you know what I mean? And like in some cases like someone gives them the book and then they reach out and it's you know what I mean And and like in some cases like people I find like totally abhorrent. Yes, and then and then it was It's like being this defense layer that with time you go could all my clients be innocent? That doesn't work, you know and going like how are you and you're all saying the same fucking shit Which is not just like I didn't do it. You're like I didn't do it and I'm really the victim. But because they only say that to usually to someone who hasn't heard it before. Yeah, it makes sense, right?

Yes, I got to imagine like someone who's a domestic abuse survivor. The second husband or whatever, the excuses to work as well. It's with the, it's when you're in the, the back and forth with the first person that you don't see how transparently the playbook is being, but you know what I mean. That's true. So what's the next book? The next book is, well, I haven't sold it yet. I'm kind of, yeah, I still, I work full time.

My life is busy. I love my first three bucks. Why was it American or Pell? So yeah, yeah, it's. I know that very well. Yeah, in fact, if I didn't, it would probably be more difficult for me because I sort of need that structure. Keeps you honest.

Yeah, it's definitely. It's a book. Let's see, it's some, it's Virgin Suicides, meets, you know that documentary paradise lost about the West Memphis three? It's a book, let's see, it's some, it's Virgin Suicides, Meets. You know that documentary Paradise Lost about the West Memphis 3? Yeah. So that's what it is. Virgin Suicides in the Satanic Panic Era.

And it's a book about corruption and a rumor panic that sweeps this small town that's sort of living in fear already of brown people moving in from Philly and and and the obnoxious yet true story true story takes place in 1996 the events and yeah I'm really looking forward to it. It's a very character defining story for me and in a way it really shows how I I could get sucked into this to this uh yeah strip tease it's a good it's a good prequel. You're not good for you I mean that's kind of the playbook, either, which is like, I wanted to be a writer and I knew I had to write about this thing that I'd experienced. Yeah.

And I knew I can't be later. Like, it has to, you have to get it out. Yeah. But you know what I mean? And I think you did it like, this is, this is burning the boats behind you. Yeah. And now you can write about something that you're interested in that is, you know, and you've proven it, you've proven it, you've proven it, you can write a book, proven it, it's reviewed well, it sells well, you've done all that stuff.

Yeah. And now, now you can be like one for you, one for me. Yeah, my passion project, yeah, for sure. Yeah, great, that's amazing. Thank you, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Anything we missed, you think? There, in the beginning, you asked me when I started how I started to write the book. Yeah. And it's interesting right after I left because the story was still, I mean,

I just knew I would write about these crazy events. I started to write a fictionalized version. Uh-huh. And I got about 75 pages in. And then I just sort of lost steam. You know, the company was still, this is in 2009, 2010, I was doing this company still wearing to go. And I sort of just didn't have any perspective. And it really took the Me Too movement happening and just reflection and me, you know, doing something else for a decade. And I always knew it really probably should be a true story because you don't need to make this shit up. Just tell like it is. Anytime, like when they did him on SNL,

there's like a lot in order episode about, they're so bad. It can't, it's so unbelievable that you can basically only do it as real. Yeah. So I don't think it would have worked. No, I don't think so either. And some agents were like,

we you should do that. You know, the people it was meant to be a true story. And I'm glad I did it now. When I've really had time to think. It's also just such an interesting period culturally that like is just distant enough, but doesn't quite feel like it's not far enough. There's nostalgia, but just, yeah, how many bands were coming out then? Like the hipster thing is now in the rear view, like there's no like hipster, because the trend lasts it a long time.

But like it's got Brooklyn feels over, East LA feels over, like it's now a historical period, as opposed to a thing that like now when I say like it used to be it would be like I was the director of marketing and people would know what that was. Oh yeah. And now I don't even put it in my bio because I'm ashamed of it, but just doesn't mean anything. Yeah, it doesn't mean anything. It's like, oh, he was the CEO of Compact Computer. Yeah. Like what? You know, like the word doesn't even have any ret, which to me is the saddest, most tragic part.

Like, that's something so popular and so big, and so ubiquitous, just, and so much potential for changing an industry. Like, am I diluted? I still think we can do it again. Maybe not dub Charlie. Well, I think a lot of people can take, like, I try to run my business, like, I only make stuff in the US. I try to, like Well, I think a lot of people can take, like I try to run my business, like I only make stuff in the US,

I try to, like I've taken a lot of those principles and how I do it, which he was right about. And I think post the pandemic and then the supply chain crisis, you are seeing a lot of reshoring people are like, oh yeah, it's not free to make your stuff 3,000 miles away, 5,000 miles away, or whatever. I like a 12 year old in Bangladesh, you know.

I remember he said to me once he was like, you can't buy a bikini for $5. That was somebody getting fuck. Yes. And like, it's true. Like it doesn't, you can't make an item of clothing for 80 cents. It's like, it's just not how it works.

I know. And by the way, American professor, was it any more expensive than the other shit? So where does that money, where was that money going for the other brands? Yes. You know, it was going to the models and the celebrities and the Times Square store and a bunch of other ways to basically. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm really glad you read the book and I wasn't going to read it and I was like, you know what, I am going to read it. I know I wondered, how did you come across it? And the first thing I learned in this whole book process is to get your own PR person. Yeah, of course. On their foot. Yeah. Yeah, I learned a lot about. I learned

that from American apparel. Yeah, I bet. Because you have to do it yourself. Yeah. Yes. You can't outsource the most important thing. Yes. Yes. I learned a lot. So anyway, that's why you never got it,

or I never reached out to you. Well, somebody at American apparel texted, not from America, for that I remember, she was like, have you read this book? What do you know about it? And I was like, I never even heard of it. And then I googled you, and I was like, the lady from the office? Oh, yeah. And I was like, I never even heard of it. And then I googled you and I was like, the lady from the office.

Oh yeah. And I was like, no, I'm extra confused. I know. I know. And some people are like, I thought this book would include how she got famous. I'm like, you know what, it's fine. Did those people are buying the book?

Right on. They come back. Who is also from Philadelphia. It's like so confusing. That's funny. No. And then I was like, am I going to read it? Am I not going to read it? And then I was like. No. And then then I was like, I was like, am I going to read it? Am I not going to read it? And then I was like, I read it. And I was like,

I read it in a day. I thought it was amazing. Thank you. Of course. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic Early and Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music App today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. Inspiration, Imag, innovation, inclusion, powered by Algoma University. Earn a bachelor's degree, master's degree, or graduate certificate close to home in Brampton, Sioux St. Marie, or Timons, with small classes, personal learning,

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