The Daily Stoic - Mt. Joy’s Matt Quinn on Consistent Growth Vs. Overnight Success (And Which Is Sweeter)

Episode Date: November 9, 2024

In the age of virality and trending TikTok songs, Mt. Joy rose to fame through the band’s authentic storytelling and community building within the indie music scene. On today’s episode, Mt. Joy’s lead singer Matt Quinn makes his return to the Daily Stoic studio to discuss the band’s surge in popularity since his first appearance a couple years back. Ryan and Matt also talk about how Matt manages performance anxiety before going on stage, the evolving perception of success in the music industry, and the band’s recent world tour that included performances at iconic venues like Madison Square Garden. 🎙️ Listen to Matt's first interview on The Daily Stoic | Apple Podcasts & SpotifyYou can follow Matt at @MattQuinnMJ on Instagram and on TikTok @MtJoyBand If you want to see Matt and the band in concert, head to mtjoyband.com and you can check out their upcoming tour schedule ✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcast. I've been traveling a bunch for the tour that I'm on and I brought my kids and my wife with me when I went to Australia. When I'm going to Europe in November, I'm bringing my in-laws also. So, we're not staying in a hotel. We're staying in an Airbnb. The first Airbnb I stayed in would have been in 2010, I think. I've always loved Airbnb, that flexibility, size, location. You can find something awesome. You want to stay somewhere that other guests have had a positive experience. I love the guest favorites feature that helps you narrow down your search to the most popular, coolest houses. I've been using Airbnb forever. I like it better than hotels. So I'm excited that they're a sponsor of the show.

And if you haven't used Airbnb yet, I don't know what you're doing, but you should definitely check it out for your next family trip. We've got a bit of a commute now with the kids and their new school. And so one of the things we've been doing as a family is listening to audio books in the car.

Instead of having that be dead time, we wanna use it to have a live time. We really wanna help their imagination soar and And listening to Audible helps you do precisely that. Whether you listen to short stories, self-development, fantasy, expert advice, really any genre that you love, maybe you're into stoicism. And there's some books there that I might recommend by this one guy named Ryan. Audible has the best selection of audiobooks without exception and exclusive Audible originals all in one easy app. And as an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. By the way, you can grab Right Thing Right Now on Audible.

You can sign up right now for a free 30-day Audible trial and try your first audiobook for free. You can get Right Thing Right Now totally for free. Visit audible.ca to sign up. Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview St stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the

challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. They say as you get older,

you become less and less open to new music music that your tastes sort of ossify. And I would guess now in my, it seems weird to say late thirties, but mid to late thirties, I don't know. I'm proud, my days of like discovering up and coming new bands probably over. I think I still discover a lot of great writers, great thinkers. I still think a lot of great writers, great thinkers.

I still think that appetite is open. But you stop being so on trend as you get older because you know what you like and those rabbit holes are so endless that you just kind of stay in them. And then there's the pleasures the Stokes talk about of coming back to the same thing and finding something new about it.

But it was weird back in COVID, I started listening to this band. They weren't that big. They didn't have a ton of streams on social. And I liked them and I mentioned them in a daily Stoke email. I quoted a lyric from one of their songs. And then back in 2022, I had the lead singer on the podcast, it was virtual.

And I remember that he was like in a, didn't seem like a super nice hotel. He was on the road. They were about to go over like maybe the Canadian border for something. I mean, they were definitely popular, but not huge. And I remember talking to Matt Quinn, he was the lead singer of Mount Joy, that's the band,

they're awesome, about navigating the sort of, the grind of the music business, like fame, the business side, like figuring out how to make it as musicians, how to survive as musicians. And then I saw that they were coming to Austin to perform at the Moody Center, which I was like, whoa, I would have guessed maybe they were playing at the outdoor Moody Amphitheater, which is an awesome venue.

Austin has a ton of mid-size venues, but it wasn't until recently we got the Moody Center acts that could sell like 15 to 20,000 seats, had somewhere to play. So oftentimes in the 10 plus years I've lived here, you have to go to like San Antonio or Houston or Dallas to see big shows. So I was like, whoa, Mount Joy's playing

in the Moody Center and I listen to them all the time but they're kind of on playlists that I have, or, you know, when it's like best of 2020, best of 2021, like my most listened to songs, my Spotify rap. So I guess I just hadn't gone to their Spotify thing in a long time. And here, I'll pull it up now, the numbers were crazy. I was like, whoa, good for you guys.

You know, I always like that indie stuff of like not wanting a band to blow up. I was like, oh man, good for them. Silver lining, one of their great songs has 287 million plays. Dirty Love is 130 million. Strangers has 120. Astrovan has 124.

Julia has 86 million. I mean, these are crazy numbers. Let me see. I like Younger Days, that's a good song. I like I'm Your Rec, that's a good song. I like Rearrange Us. I like Strangers. I'm seeing which ones I downloaded.

Orange Blood is good. Anyways, I like a bunch of their stuff. They have something like seven million monthly listeners and they just performed at Madison Square Garden. Matt came out to the Daily Stoke studio. We talked about stage fright, performance anxiety, philosophy in the music industry and how do you meet your moment? And then that sort of underdog up and coming mentality

that you need at some point, does it stop serving you? You can follow Matt at Matt Quinn MJ on Instagram and the band on TikTok. your dog up and coming mentality that you need at some point does it stop serving you. You can follow Matt at Matt Quinn MJ on Instagram and the band on TikTok at Mountjoyband. Mount is just MT. You can head to mountjoyband.com, see their touring schedule and just give them a listen. I think they're great.

It was really cool to have this conversation and I'll talk to you all soon. conversation and I'll talk to you all soon. How long is the tour you're on? So we've been going since June. Yeah. And that was like Europe and then this is the last three weeks. Oh wow. So like it feels really good like obviously it's the start of something's a little butterflies

and stuff but I'm like it's a different feeling because it's like these little chunks. Oh it's not start of something's with little butterflies and stuff, but I'm like, it's a different feeling. Cause it's like these little chunks. Oh, it's not one big long thing or? It is, but it's like, you'll do like, you know, Europe was like three weeks and we came home for like two weeks and then you go out for like four weeks and then you come home for two weeks and then you go out for four weeks

and then this is the last one of that. I think there've been basically four of those chunks. Yeah. And yeah, like in the middle, it's like anything else. Like in the middle, you're like, oh God. Do you have a bunch of time off after, or do you have to immediately do all the things that piled up while you were gone?

Pretty much that. We're about halfway through like finishing the record. Yeah. And with that amount of touring, it's like, once it stops, it's like full album mode and finish an album and hopefully make it an awesome fourth album. I feel like when I was younger,

I was better at like doing a lot of things at the same time. And like, like I used to be really productive on airplanes. Oh yeah. And then as I've gotten older, I can't like now it's just like total dead time to me. I can really, I can, I can do what I do better than I could when I was younger, but I can only do it well

if that's like the only thing I'm doing. Yeah, I mean, for me, I've tried to write on the road, which is sort of the music version of what you're talking about, but it's hard. I mean, I think it's also two totally different disciplines. Like we don't do the same show every night. We try to change things up. So I feel like we're writing this sort of, I mean, it's not like

drastically different. We're not a jam band. We're like, no song is the same. Yeah. But we do have like, I think honestly, just we have a lot of like respect for that world and stuff and how cool it is to feel like as a fan, which we are of course, of music as well, like to go to a show and not be 100% sure what's about to happen.

Creates like a certain level of excitement that we try to have. So you're writing a little bit for the show, so you're saying like, hey, crazy idea, coming in the morning, like crazy idea, what if we did a Taylor Swift song? Cause something in the world happened with Taylor Swift of course, or something, you know.

That's just an example, but you know, so at that point that takes some of your sort of writing CPU, if you will. And I therefore, you know, maybe if we were doing the same exact show, the same joke every night, you know, it was just this sort of autopilot thing where you could just write the rest of the day. Yeah. But the way we do it, I really like all sometimes just like be, you know, you get to travel.

So like sometimes you'll see something and I'll pull out my little voice and I'll be like, yeah, I'll sometimes just like be, you know, you get to travel. So like sometimes you'll see something and I'll pull out my little voice and I'll be like, I'll have a thought or something. But it's, that's pretty much like the extent of it. And sometimes, you know, like I always tell myself like, and I'm sure you feel the same way. It's like, just try to like experience things and then the best things will happen.

Like just try to be a person who's on tour, who has hopefully an interesting life and then channel that into something hopefully interesting from a writing perspective. I heard Jerry Seinfeld say this thing about how like you make your money during the day, but you collect it at night. Ooh, I love that.

Isn't that good? I love that. I mean, especially for me, I'm a night person too. Oh, I mean, not at all, but. Really? Not at all. I'm like, I'm a night person too. Oh, I mean, not at all, but. Really? Not at all. I'm like, I'm done by like 10 a.m. Like, I have young kids,

so my son woke up at 5.30 this morning. By the time, you know, I was at my desk, having dropped them off to school, it was 8.14. I was done by 10.30 today. Like creative writing, everything else is administrative crap, but that's, you know, in life, and I'm recording an audio book,

and I have like other stuff that I'm doing that's not uncreative, but like the generative thing, all in the morning. Wow. Sometimes I feel like, like I long for that, but I can't be that person. Yeah, because your audience is at night. Yeah.

Music is weird. I did this book for these rappers one time and they were like, okay, we're gonna get to this. We're gonna do some stuff in the studio. I'm like, okay, what time? And they're like, could they like 1 a.m.? Like starting? I know. It's insane.

I know. I do think though, for some people, I guess, for me and maybe those people, I sort of get it in the sense that sometimes to get out of your own head, you have to be that loopy tired. Yeah, sure. You know what? There's diminishing returns to like, if you're exhausted, it's just, it's not gonna work.

But like, if you have a little bit of energy and that little bit of like, maybe I'm becoming disillusioned and all of a sudden something that would never have come out of you before, you know, if you're searching for, I guess that's just a different approach to creativity. But- Like comedy and music, I feel like the audience

doesn't want to hear it at three in the afternoon. So you can't like do the show then. So you have to wire a good chunk of your life just around like when the audience is done with their work, that's when they're like, well, where are you guys? A hundred percent. Yeah. And when you were saying that, I thought of the like, it's like a psychology,

I don't know if it's even true, but the idea that like, if you're drunk while you're studying, you should be drunk during the test. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so it's like, yeah, you should make your music at the like, the best possible time

for people to listen to it or something, but. Yeah, you can't record like a party song at 817 in the morning after you dropped your kids out of school. You gotta like work your way up to that It's like a slow burn kind of exactly actually I have an interesting thing. I Years ago my manager and I I guess he was managing some hip-hop artists and One of them came and was recording. This is before Mount Joy and he sort of figured out just from living, he was living with us for a couple weeks and he was like, oh, you know, figured out that I do music and that I sing and then he was like,

I want to put you on a song and I had like sang before, you know, like in bands and stuff and for me he was successful and successful enough that I was like, this is a good opportunity. Yeah. and for me, he was successful enough that I was like, this is a good opportunity. Yeah, yeah. I can't say no, even though I don't fit in this song really. But so I said yes, long story short, we're recording in like a closet somewhere in Los Angeles and he's got the setup and I start going

and he's kind of like, you know, you gotta get pumped up like to your point, he's like, you gotta get pumped up. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get pumped up, you know, but I'm a pretty like, you know, even got to get pumped up, like to your point. It's like you got to get pumped up. And I'm like, OK, I'm going to get pumped up, you know, like, but I'm a pretty like, you know, even keel guy. And so he finally comes in and he start he like starts to kind of like pushing, pushing me and like, like roughing me up. And I was like, this is a really interesting approach.

Like, I've never done it again. But like in his music was like pretty high energy. Yeah. And I like the way he was approaching it was like, when he went in, we then went to a nicer studio and he did his part and he had people in there, like a bunch of friends and they were pushing him around, like slapping him and it was this really physical thing. And I think the music comes off that way.

Yeah. And in his concerts, he takes a shrub and it's very sort of, I was gonna say menacing, but that's the wrong word, but it- But it is, there is a menace and a harshness to it, which the whole thing is kind of preposterous in the sense where it's like, I hate you, so I wrote this poem about you.

Yeah. You know, like there's something silly about it. So like, you have to kind of, I think, take on like a character or like artists pretend, you know, you have to get into a place, you're writing about something you're by definition not experiencing in that moment. Totally. In a very artificial setting,

you have to kind of tap into some like deeper vein and the way that, how does an actor or an actress just make themselves like cry on command? They have to like go somewhere else. Totally, yeah. I mean, for me, it's like the whole experience of being in a position is sort of what you're talking about. Like you have to get into a head space

because that makes you feel like you can sing songs about your ex-girlfriend and that that's okay and not weird in and of itself. Yeah, or that I deeply mean this, but also I don't mean it at all. Like this isn't real, you know? Like you're writing from the perspective of a character or something you haven't yourself experienced,

but you're sincere about. 100%. And I, well, I do a lot of, like almost all of my songs have some truth to them. They're a story either that I am connected to or that directly happened to me or whatever. And so at some point during our growth as a band, you know, one of the ways that I deal with stage fright

is that I'm like, this is really dumb. Which is like, to hear you say it's preposterous is like that's sort of my approach. In a way is that like, whatever happens here, hopefully it goes well. Hopefully I sing the right notes. But this is preposterous. This is all sort of a joke anyways.

And so like the levels to it are that like, if you don't take yourself too seriously kind of thing, and then seeing people who take that to a whole another level where there's this whole sort of, I'm pretty reserved on stage. I'm not like climbing the scaffolding or anything like that. But you do see people doing that.

And I think it sort of helps me actually to be like, people take this to extreme levels of being preposterous, right? And I'm just up here just sort of, just let me sing about my ex-girlfriend. You know, whatever. It's kind of funny that this thing that pretty much everyone thought was lame in high school,

like entertainment, and I'm including writing, theater, singing, all of it, it was all not cool, decidedly uncool. And then as soon as everyone left high school and went to their respective place and then somehow succeeds at that thing, then it becomes not just cool, but the coolest thing. And so sometimes, yeah, I just try to go, you're a fucking nerd, dude.

You write about ancient philosophy, and then you get up and you talk to people about it with these stupid slides. Like that feels, it's not like an imposter syndrome, but it is just trying to kind of like wipe away maybe like the ego and self-importance, which can create like a fear or a paralyzation. You kind of lower the stakes by going like,

this is really silly. Yeah, well, it's actually, it's funny, like in the sort of philosophical way, like I, you know, there's so many different ways to, I guess, approach like, you know, whether it's stage fright or whatever, but you know, the sort of anxiety around being an artist. And I think one of the things that I think about is like, there's the idea, like obviously control what you can control is such a big part of all of that stuff. But the problem with that is,

is that like you're in some control here as a performer, as a writer or whatever it's like. And so you do put a certain amount of pressure on yourself to control that situation and that creates its own anxiety. But I think what really helps with that is to be like, well, even within that, I've prepared as much as I can or whatever it is, and truly the best medicine for me is just being like, and it's all very silly.

Yes. Buried in the depths of the internet is The Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing hundreds of names, photos, addresses and specific instructions for their murders. Kill List is a true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those whose lives were in danger. Follow Kill List on the Wanderer app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more exhibit C true crumb shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes and welcome to Rivals, the official podcast.

Step inside my Rutscher residence as we celebrate Rivals, the brand new original series now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu. Those scenes between Cameron and Rupert Dara, I heard that your first draft had to be toned down. He told you! This is the place for all the on-set gossip and real insight into how the world of Jilly Cooper's scandalous English county was brought to your screens,

including interviews with Emily Atak, Danny Dyer, and many more. Somebody needs to tell Lord Baddingham's Drake. There are many people in the show that does that. All episodes will be available from the 25th of October, wherever you get your podcasts. I just did this talk in Brazil. And so when you do like talks like I do in foreign countries, as an American, you're just like so entitled. Like, of course, everyone speaks English, right?

And in most of the audiences, they do. But when you do like in countries where English is not actually the main language, everyone in the audience has headphones and it's being routed through a translator, like in real time. So one of the, this was like 5,000 people is an insane amount of people. And they weren't here to see me, it was a conference. So it was just like one of the people.

It's like a festival audience. You know, you don't get to give yourself credit for all the people that arrive. We call that a soft audience. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, you know it's a soft audience and then you know, like there's gonna be this delay, which effectively, like, in what I do means,

you get nothing from the audience. Cause you're not like, they're not breaking into applause, they're not getting up and dancing. So basically I was just like, I'm going, I decided to tell myself, I'm gonna go do something that I'm gonna get literally crickets for. So just don't stress about it at all. There really is no good or bad performance here.

There's just like, did you do it? And they knew what they were bringing when they brought you that they didn't choose, they chose someone who didn't speak English, right? Or who only spoke English. And so kind of just, yeah, figuring out some way to address the stakes so you can kind of just go and be present and do the thing.

You're always just finding some version of that for the unique situation that you're going into. Here's a question. Yeah. Did it work? I don't know. No, I didn't. I have no idea. Yeah. I mean, it I created a self contained. Yeah. Thing where that way I didn't walk off stage in a cold sweat and be like, I got nothing like I had to go know an event. And I guess I'll get the video of it after. But I mean, like for you, like,

cause I mean, ultimately. I think I did good. Yeah, like you went into it, you didn't feel nervous. You didn't feel, you know, like, not that you didn't feel nervous. I'm sure you felt a little nervous, but I have this like little piece of art on our wall or house that someone gave me

and they didn't know how perfect it was. But like, I remember I was backstage before a thing. Oftentimes there's like a bunch of speakers. And so obviously I'm like trying to get in my headspace. So I'm not paying attention at all of what's happening on stage. And then the person comes off stage and I was like, you were great up there. And of course I had not, I don't know if they were great. I was just being nice. And then afterwards I got off and someone was like, you were great. And I remember feeling like, yes. Yeah, you took it, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And then like my next talk, someone gave me this piece of art and it literally just says, you were great up there. And I think about that all the time because it's just like, actually, if people said it was terrible or good, it doesn't, you have to kind of create your own little bubble

where you decide whether it was terrible or good. It doesn't, you have to kind of create your own little bubble where you decide whether it was good or not. Even though you also care about delivering a great show, but like if you're riding or dying on how it felt to you from the place you are least fit to judge what's happening, you're setting yourself up for some very fragile post-performance feelings. For sure. The music version of that is great set, dude.

Yeah. Everyone always says that at festivals, everyone's just walking around like, great set, dude. No one saw the set. No, no, no. They're all getting changed, but you'll see a guy be like, great set, dude. You'll be like, you too, man, great set.

Yeah. Just the ease with which you give it to other people and then the weight in which it feels with you and then Realizing that yeah when people say nice things or mean things about you on the internet they They didn't even experience what they are giving this nice or mean opinion about yeah It's just things people say yeah, I've read your writing. I think some obviously like to listen this I've read your writing. I think it's interesting to imagine you, the person who is dispensing so much amazing knowledge,

like in practice, like going in front of thousands of people or in a pretty stressful situation and leaning on all the things that you- It's still like the job. Like I think that must be fascinating for you too in that like music is this thing, it's this artistic thing. And then also it's like, you have to be at the Moody Center at a time tomorrow.

Yeah, sure. And go through some motions, and then you have to go up and do a thing from this time to this time. And if you're short, they're mad, if you're long, they're mad. Sure. And then it's a thing.

And so seeing it as kind of a profession that people have done for a long time There's like tips and tricks. It's like it's also part of that kind of demystification that you need to have Yeah, like know how to do it. Totally Well, and I think about how like I don't know and I wonder what you're all the things that you've learned Make you feel about this but like for me, I think it's when I'm healthy Yeah, mentally physically sure and like, you know, just generally doing well.

I feel like I don't have to necessarily, like there's sort of an autopilot, good energy going into something. Like if you're talking about like public speaking, or even if it's something as simple as like, I really need to call a family member and tell them they need to do X, Y, or Z, or my opinion on something which is stressful or whatever.

Those things just happen when you're in that good flow. But I feel like when I lean on or when I'm having the internal monologue of like control what you can control or whatever you're trying to say, or like I do the, mine is what if you're great? Like trying to just unwind. What does that mean?

Someone taught me this once and it really works, but it's like, or for me anyway, the idea is that if you're having performance anxiety, and you could apply this to anything, but it's like that what's happening is you're projecting that something is going to go bad or that you're going to have a less than ideal performance or the phone call with your friend's gonna go bad or whatever. And like with equal likelihood, you could just try to turn the tide and be like,

what if it goes really well? Yeah. Like what if I actually start having almost a grandiose illusion about it? Like what if it actually like, what if this person comes in? Because ultimately it's all completely, you don't know. The outcome is completely unknown.

So it could be just as likely that you're gonna kill it. And it's actually probably more likely the more you think like that. So it's like, so just to try to turn the tide and stop the feedback loop of anxiety to just be like, all right, about to go out there. There's a lot of people out there. Playin' for success also,

not just like it's all gonna fall apart because you suck and you're not gonna, you can't do this. Exactly, exactly. I remember I was talking to like a finance person once I was like getting some advice from them. And I was like, and obviously this isn't gonna keep going. You know, it's gonna like, I just done this book deal.

So like, this is my last big one. And then it all goes back to normal. And he was like, this is all great to think about. But he's like, have you ever thought about a career trajectory in which you continue to be successful? Exactly. And I was like, no, you know,

because that felt like kind of presumptuous and weird. And it is like, you can't just go, the artist that takes their future for granted isn't gonna do the work, but just the idea of like, if you're always playing it small or playing not to lose, you're probably not going to win. And there's going to be things that you need to be able to conceive of that you're sort of small mindedness is preventing you from conceiving. Yeah, that makes me think about like when you're writing a book or I guess just writing in general

or even podcasting and you have like a really good idea Yeah, but you haven't done it yet. You haven't written it You haven't like actually put it on the page or even fully mapped out. Maybe the plan for a book or something Do you tell people no? Yeah ever exactly. You don't talk about it Yeah, you got to keep that energy in the thing. Yeah, because you're to me. That's like Buying that's like putting it on a credit card or something. Or it's like a payday loan. It's like very high interest. It's very high interest.

Crippling interest. Yes, because you're getting the, like if you're like, hey, I got this idea. Well, it's actually two things. So best case scenario, you tell someone about the idea. They're like, that's fucking awesome, you're great. And then you already got the reward, so maybe you're not gonna do it.

Got the dopamine. Yeah, and then the other thing, which is more likely, is you go like, so maybe you're not gonna do it. Got the dopamine. Yeah, and then the other thing, which is more likely, is you go like, so I have this amazing idea for a book, and you start to say it, and then you're like, oh, this sounds so dumb. Nevermind, it's so dumb. You get the cringe of, you gotta go figure it out. You can't, if you were describing to me

the song you were thinking of writing, I'd be like, sure, that sounds great. You know, like I'd be rolling my eyes because it probably sounds terrible. This is what I'm doing right now. This is my life right now. So I'm making tons of voice memos and my manager is here.

You know, occasionally we'll be like, I was thinking about this on the flight just a couple hours ago. He was like, hey, send me some voice memos. Like, I'd love to hear like what you're working on. And I just sort of, and this is not gonna be a funny thing because you'd be like, that's why you never send me voice memos.

But I can't, not because I don't want them to hear it. I'm maybe even excited about it, or maybe I'm not, or maybe I'm nervous, whatever, I can't say what it is. But it's exactly that. It's like stolen valor or something like that. Like, you don't wanna do that because for everything you just said, and also I just think that lowers your confidence,

like really my confidence, because I find myself, the idea is only gonna be good, it has a high ceiling, but there's plenty more to do. I don't know, it's like once it like gets out of the water before it can breathe or something like that, then you're like, oh, this thing can't even breathe? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like dead on arrival or something. Yeah, editors are always like, just send me some of the chapters you're like, oh, this thing can't even breathe. Oh. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like dead on arrival or something.

Yeah, editors are always like, just send me some of the chapters you're working on. Like, and it's, and I don't know. Yeah, it'd be like, show me the piece of the house you're building. You gotta, like, once it's largely framed out, like there's places where people can start to see it, but it's most precarious and vulnerable in that, like,

you gotta go do the actual work before you can show people it. Now, do people, like, you're a successful writer, do people pitch you things? Is it to put in my stuff? Well, yeah, but no, I mean, now that I'm thinking about this, I'm realizing I've had experiences, not that I'm judging people for this,

but I've had experiences where people kind of come to me because they think I'm some sort of source of knowledge for songwriting or whatever, and they're like, I've got this, you know, great, like they're doing the thing, you know? And I'm working on this or I'm working on that sort of type conversation. And I wonder if it's like, I don't know,

I wonder if it becomes a, I guess like a cultural known thing that's like, don't do that. Like. Yeah, it should be like, keep it to your fucking self and do it, man. Yeah, don't tell me, I can't help you. Yeah. Although, as I was gonna ask you about this,

I'm fascinated with this thing. I think Max Martin, the songwriter, calls it like the PCH test. Do you know this? No. Okay, so he'll write a song and then he does a demo of it and then he puts it in his car and he drives up PCH. Oh, yes to hear it there. Yeah, and the idea of thinking of music not just as this like isolated artistic

Expression to the artist but like a thing that does a job for someone and the job is like we listen to music in our car Yeah, and there's no more representative experience or better drive than the PCH. It's commercial, yeah. Yeah, and so it's like, does it work there? There's a story about the Rolling Stones too where they couldn't decide between two different singles on their album.

So the manager sent it to a radio station and then they heard it on the radio in the car driving just to see which one it was the idea of like testing the thing in a real environment is very interesting to me yeah 100% well I think there's a couple things I think about one is the this is what I think creates what we call demo-itis because I think whether it's that's super intentional I'm gonna drive a PCH but even like there's less intentional things where it's like you're making something and yeah, you know I'll often have my voice number something I'm driving. I'm stuck in traffic Let me just because sometimes it's actually just really helpful to hear it back in a different environment

Yeah, different space because then maybe you come up with a lyrical idea in the car and you're like Recording it on this literally do that kind of stuff all the time But I think then what happens is there's an attachment to let's say you're driving at the PCA or whatever and you're like, man, this sounds so good. I think like I'm become convinced this is album four and I've been doing this for even beyond that, like that the best sounding song to an artist, to the person creating it is somewhere between the demo and the final product in terms of like the mixing and the mastering and all this stuff that ultimately sort of like shines up

this thing that you made. Because it starts to get away from those probably feelings you maybe had when you were going out to the P station and you were just listening and yeah, like, you know maybe the drums were a little too loud or like maybe the voice needed some reverb or whatever it was. But then once those things are added,

I think it becomes this thing where that's the expectation of what music should sound like. But it wasn't your thing. It's a little different than what your thing is. And that like probably imperceptible, like I heard Benny Blanco talking about this, like the crap you put into a song in the last little bit can make an enormous difference actually

for the commercial viability of the song. But I actually think most people, if put in a situation where they just listen to the old demo and then they listen to that, they suit, so to speak, I think would easily be like that. The newer, the crispy, the loud, the whatever it is, give me that. But I think the soul of people

actually really would love to hear people's more like, I'm not saying super rough where it's like unintelligible, but this zone where it's like, you've gotten it, the artist has taken it as far as they want it to go. And of course, like there's mixing and stuff that happens where you're like, oh, I love that. You just made that so much better. I'm not saying it's a totally unimportant art,

but I think for me, there's so many times, and I hear about this all the time with artists where it's like, you get stuck with the mixer because the mixer's saying you have demoitis. And it's like, it's happened enough now over enough years with me and with friends who are artists where it's like, I don't think that's like an evil thing that happens to artists.

I think it's a real thing sort of to what you're talking about where there's this attachment to the, you know, like the sort of living organism that was this imperfect piece of art. Yeah. I don't know. I think like, it could just be things like that. Like maybe you drove in the car and you heard it

and like just exactly like that. You even, sometimes I'll have the thought internally and not tell anyone, but I'll be like, this is gonna work. Yeah, but that's what I mean. It's like feeling it in the environment that gives you the sense, like the context that you consume, the thing matters,

but you're rarely creating it or experiencing it in that context. Like one of the things I learned on my books is, so like you can see over there, that's like an audio book that I'm doing, but like they'll send you the PDF of your book to like edit once it's been designed. But nobody reads it as a PDF.

So I was like, no, you gotta print it, it's gotta look exactly like the book. As I'm doing my final edits, I'm somewhat close to the context in which someone's gonna be doing it. Like I've told this one before about Raymond Chandler would write with these really small pages. He wouldn't use a large sheet in a typewriter because he knew his book would ultimately come out

as a small paperback. And so on a page, you have this whole page to get to this thing. But the actual reader, that might be three or four pages. So they just read four pages where nothing happened. But if you'd written on a small page, it would have shrunk the context. Yeah. I think thinking about the context in which the thing is going to happen. Like, hey, people read my book on airplanes. The medium is the message.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think ultimately that's why songs sound the way they do actually, right? It's because like, well, they're not going gonna drive in their car with all of the sort of context you have about how the song was made and you know, why things, why choices were made. But yeah, I just mean from the artists and I wonder if that's, it's probably a little different writing wise because I guess editing is probably,

well, you can tell me like, I assume it's pretty technical. Like, hey, this is a bad comma here or something like that. Yeah, I think music feels much more sue generous. It's like you did the thing and then there's little comma here or something like that. Yeah, I think music feels much more su-generous. It's like you did the thing and then there's little tweaks here or there, but writing is a process of writing and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting because you can move the stuff around.

There's no sense of like, this is it. It's like, it's different. But I feel like, speaking of context, maybe this is me projecting or adding my own experience, but you guys feel like a road trip band. Oh. Is that, am I making that up? One of our first like playlists or whatever that we got

was like road trip something or other. And I- Someone made that on Spotify or something? Yeah, exactly. And our song like did well there and it had a decent following. And I think from that moment, it's sort of like we got, yeah, I guess that's just happened naturally.

But I remember seeing that and being like, I feel like that's objective. Like we are the road trip ban, you know? Yeah, and not like a road trip through Belgium. It's like, feels like a very American, like West, like I couldn't decide if I was making this up because I have listened to you guys on road trips. Like I think I found you guys right before the pandemic.

And then we did a road trip during the pandemic. So I remember, you know, you associate music with events in your life but it just feel like a band that works in the car. Yeah. And that's what made me think of the car test where you're like, obviously you wouldn't test classical music necessarily on the PCH. Like certain music does certain jobs,

but yeah, maybe a rapper has to hear it in a club or something to know if it's something. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think for me it's interesting. One, I think the band sounding good in the car, I think in part is because we're a band. Yeah. You know, like we're kind of a dying breed. There are other bands out there for sure. You're a band, not a group. Yeah, exactly. Or like, you know, like we have, it's me, but then we have like incredible players in the band who really like I'm bringing, you know, lyrical content and maybe some chords. And then ultimately what you're hearing is this band

that like comes together to, you know, make the song sound really great or whatever. And I think like bands work in a car. Yeah. There's an energy about a band, whereas like sort of super produced pop music, of course also works in a car. But I think on a road trip,

maybe like there's the nostalgia with road trips or there's sort of nostalgia about bands. I think that's one piece of it. And then I think the other piece maybe hopefully for me, self-serving is like lyrically and then where the songs just start, like on guitar and whatever, like some of my most inspired and sort of like, you know, when my antenna are like really reaching things, I feel like is like being on a train and looking out the window or like being in the being in a car and just like, you know, looking out

the window and seeing, I guess, just seeing America really, you know, growing up doing road trips and where Mount Joy started was I was from the East Coast, I was in my young 20s and I moved to Los Angeles, not even really chasing music, but you know, and you're in Los Angeles, you're in your young 20s, like you're hiking around, you're experiencing nature as much as you can because I mean, I love Philadelphia as one of my favorite places on the planet, but like geographically, physically quite different. Adam Lasson doesn't get enough credit for what a, the amount of geographic diversity you can get within like two hours.

Yeah, I mean, it's one of the most stunning cities. My wife is Brazilian. I went to Rio and I was like, Rio is also incredibly beautiful, but in a really similar way to L.A. where you have like the mountains crashing into the ocean very dramatically and like there aren't many places like that that I've personally been to. So yeah, so I was doing that in L.A. and then that's when the start of these songs came out. So I feel like hopefully it's just the natural like, yeah, these songs kind of come from

being an observer of the road and yeah, it's cool. And that's something random I just learned on the internet, so it's probably, I wouldn't say it's misinformation because the stakes here are low. But do you know what, LA is weird in that it's by this beautiful ocean, Santa Monica, and then an enormous port, Long Beach, but like the actual city of Los Angeles

is not near those things. That's because the Spanish passed a law that said the founding of all new cities had to be 20 miles from the ocean because they were tired of having to build forts to defend against pirates. Well, that's why L.A. So it's next to a river like, you know, Olivera Street, where Union Station is downtown. Like, obviously, the river is near there.

It's not really a big deal anymore because they paved it. Yeah, it's classic Los Angeles. But but like it was founded next to a river as opposed to a seaport because it's more expensive to defend seaports from raiding other imperial powers. That's incredible. It makes it the most unique sort of city that I've been to just design wise. Like there's no other city that's so residential and sort of city that I've been to just design wise. Like there's no other city that's so residential and sort of like Picasso, like you're describing,

where it's like, yeah, like you have this like ocean and then like, okay, downtown's like over here, but downtown's sort of like in the corner and then mountains up here. It is a very like, you know, whereas of course I'm from Philadelphia, I think it's like the first gridded American, yeah. And most of the big American cities are on a grid.

When you're in downtown LA where I've lived and you're like, you guys know the ocean is like 12 or. You can get to the water like really fast. Like this is insane. What are we doing here? But then you're like, oh, okay, somebody made a decision in like the 1700s and that's why it's here.

It's rendered, I mean, the downtown, I think, like is it coming back or something, but it's rendered it like pretty irrelevant in the sort of like cultural zet guise that is like Los Angeles. I think you think of other places before, even especially when you're there, it's like it's pretty rare for someone to be like, we're going downtown today. Or if you live downtown, you're like, I've been to the ocean like five times since I've been here.

You live in totally different places. I feel like you guys have gotten much, much bigger since I talked to you last. Do you feel that? Yeah, I think. But only like this summer. It started to feel that way. I mean, you know, I guess like when I found out we were playing Madison Square Garden, being a kid from they just tell you that or you decide to do it. How does that work?

I guess a little bit of both. You know, we played Central Park and we did two nights there last time. And I think it just kind of gets to a point where I think both of those were like over 5000 tickets and it was sold out. And then like Madison Square Garden, like the next step is like, OK, you did 10000 tickets last time. The next step ups are like, I mean, inside baseball, I guess, but like Forest Hills or Madison Square Garden. inside baseball, I guess, but like Forest Hills

or Madison Square Garden. And yes, I guess in a way you sort of choose, but you get there by like, well, your ticket sales have led you to this place. Yeah, I guess that, but then, you know, once we kind of got out this summer and we've played specifically North America, like Europe's a little different for us a little further behind. But yeah, like once we started doing these shows this summer and when we were in Merriweather, Post-Pavillion and like the DC area and just like 13, 14,000 people there. And I think that amount of people for some reason,

it like, you're like, all of us, I think collectively in the band, because we've had these conversations internally a lot this summer, we're just like, what the hell? You know, like it's wild. And it would probably be more explicable, is that how you say it? If you had like one new song that was responsible for all of it,

it feels like people are just, are discovering stuff that's been around for a while, which is I think is a good reminder people were making stuff, which is like, if people haven't heard it, it's still new new and so that's not typically how it goes usually it's powered on what's coming out not that your new stuff isn't great and popular but like there's not like a sense you're like this is why they're in this movie or this clip went viral or whatever 100 I actually I don't have a choice but I I love that. You know, like, I think it makes

it a thing. If we were just talking about making the album, it takes a little bit of pressure off it, but it also, I think, puts the right pressure on creating when you're like, hey, actually, just make yourself make something great. Yeah. And make that Barbie that you believe that and that you're not lying to yourself. Because I think there's a laziness or just whatever inside of everyone that's like, it's good enough. But like to-

It's good because I made it. Yeah. But to push past that and be like, make something or try to of course. Not everything that we make is truly great or whatever. That's not what I'm saying. But because you know that even if the first round, because we've experienced this to your point, where it's like even if the first thing comes out

and isn't received critically acclaimed or whatever, you never know, especially now with TikTok and Reels and those types of things have just dug up so many old songs for people. I just sang on a song, Lake Missoula by Richie Mitch and the Coal Miners that was made in 2017. And they had another song, Evergreen,

which also 2017 that became one of like, I mean, it's been used in big political ad campaigns. Like it's just this sort of sound that went crazy seven, eight years later. And, you know, so you never know what sort of technology is gonna dig your music or art up in some way. And then for us, I think if I could, you know, like, just compliment the band and the work that we've done, it's like, I also think it's that combination of like, if you get an opportunity to work hard and you do it, and you put in the work

and you get better, and then as more and more people show up, you're more and more prepared to meet that moment. I think there's a little bit of that combined with luck and all that stuff that's helped us up. I'm Matt Ford. And I'm Alice Levine. And we're the hosts of Wanderers podcast, British Scandal. Now our latest series is big, I mean, huge. You could say the biggest scandal ever to happen

on British soil. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. It's paid to be. Wanderer's podcast, British Scandal. Now, our latest series is big, I mean, huge. You could say the biggest scandal ever to happen on British soil.

It's political, it's religious, it was an extreme act of defiance. We're talking about a next level assassination attempt. Members of the royal family, religious leaders, as well as a load of big names in society. And they very nearly succeeded. So close.'re going to be telling you the story of the gunpowder plot and how 13 men set about

planning to blow up the Houses of Parliament. The stakes were impossibly high. There were rifts in the group, a load of swords and drunk men swigging beer in hostelries. Which always ends badly. To find out the full story follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free on Wondry Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Francopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history.

This season, we're talking about the life of US President JFK. He steered the world through moments of terrifying geopolitical crisis. But was he quite the shining hero he seemed? A complex personal life and, of course, the source of countless conspiracy theories. There's so much to cover, right? What are you most looking forward to talking about? I'm really looking forward to the Cuban Missile Crisis because it's just one of the most dramatic things

that's ever happened in history. I don't know, there's something about Kennedy, you know, as I'm growing up, thinking of him as an all-American hero, the good looks. I want to scratch the surface and see what's really underneath. I'm a slightly different generation. I never really understood what the big deal was.

I just knew that there was a big deal. Well, I'm a different generation. I knew you were gonna take it like that. I feel old, but historians love the dating process. So follow Legacy now from wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad free on Wondery+. We think of the algorithm as being this thing that like plucks something from obscurity and blows it up, but it's also something where it's like, it's noticing, we're projecting

on it, but it's noticing that more and more people like this. And so it's showing it to more and more people. And so yeah, like with authors, like oftentimes, like the best thing you can do for your book is to write another book because now someone's read two books from you and then three books. So just this kind of building this base, suddenly one day you look back and it's big, but it never felt like there was some pivot moment

where it went from obscurity to everyone knew about. And by the way, it tends not to work out that well for those people. Everyone who goes from nothing to an overnight sensation, like it tends to be disorienting and destabilizing and often very destructive. It's probably better to have maybe a lower ceiling,

but like a longer time span. Totally. I mean, I think about just the last piece of, which is that you have to be prepared to meet that moment over and over and over again. If you become, if you go straight to the top. Yeah. And on the backs of a song a moment a singular moment or maybe a couple things. Well, now you're here. And you know, from a music perspective, like or whatever, like you're up here, it's you the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, the Beyonce, Taylor Swift, whatever. If you're up in that upper echelon of like cultural phenomenon,

then you have to meet that moment repeatedly or else you're not as good as those people and it's doing this. Even though this trajectory line is still keeping you like, we're down here, we're doing great, but you're doing bad. Your failed album sold like millions of copies. Exactly, exactly, it's all relative, but like I think especially now,

like perceived regression is like so much more harmful to your career in anything than like, yeah, I think just like being consistent in some way over the long haul, of course, like you could look at it the other way and be like, well, those people made more money in one year than you're gonna make in 10, which is maybe great for them, right?

Sure, sure, sure. I don't know, we'll take it. I mean, we're just really enjoying the crowds and also just because I think of the way we've done it, it creates this sense of community, the people that have come back and are like, really feel like they've gotten to see us do that. Sure. They've grown with us.

Like, they saw you at this venue, then this venue, then this venue. They've got to experience the small shows to the big shows. I would say that's one of the things that people, you know, we do sometimes do like meet with people before the shows. Like that's one of the most common things that people say to us is like, you know, I saw you when sort of thing. And that's like my favorite type of fan interaction in the sense where I'm like, yeah, like,

we're just doing this weird thing together, aren't we? And like, you can see how crazy this is. You saw my terrible haircut in 2018, you know, whatever, like, whatever it was, right? And that's, you know, that's a huge, a huge part of why I think that people have fun at our shows because there is this sense of the crowd's winning too.

That's true. Yeah, as opposed to maybe how it was, I think when I was a kid where it's like, bands were always being resented for succeeding or breaking through to some level, maybe because it's less visible, there's less of that. I don't feel like anyone talks about selling out anymore. I thought that's what you were getting at.

I was just gonna say, I feel like when we were first touring,. I was just gonna, I thought that's what you're getting at. I was just gonna say, like, I feel like when we were first touring, you know, we're in a van, and I feel like you can really understand where that culture came from, because it's really hard. It's hard work. You're touring in a van, and you kind of become friends with this group of very also strange colleagues of yours, right, who are also- Colleague competitors.

Yeah, they're like also touring in a van. They have a cool thing going for them. But the secret that you all know is that you're all broke. Your business is a terrible business. It makes no money. It actually at times loses money. That part of it's really stressful. So I think when a band gets a bus,

and like, you know, it's like your friend gets a new house or something or gets a new car. It's like, it's so easy to be like, screw them, you know? As if it's like a finite pie. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that that's where it came from, but I think, I just think this like new generation

of artists and really just like, no one isn't getting marketed to at any one second, at any one time. It is just full on, you know, it used to be like the commercials are annoying. Now it's like, well, like during commercial, you're also holding a phone, you're getting like three commercials at once. Is a band or an artist or a writer or someone promoting themselves and succeeding? I really do feel like there's a, you're right, like there's a softness to that now where

it's like, of course, I'm sure some people are like, those guys are lame, they're playing to so many people or something, which is fine. I think that's cool. But I think for most people, they're just like, oh, that's so cool that they're doing that. Have you been able to update your self-perception? Mine has been that way too, where there wasn't sort of one pivotal moment.

It was like a series of just kind of slow, consistent increases that you wake up one day and you're like, man, my hair is long. Like, I need to cut my hair. Like, it's been a series of just kind of slow, consistent increases that you wake up one day and you're like, man, my hair is long. Like I need to cut my hair. Like it's been a while, you know? And that's been good because I think it's healthier, but it also made it hard. If you're someone who is a little insecure,

if you are not super optimistic, it can be hard for you to update your self perception that you're like, I'm good, I can do this. This is my job now. I've not that I've made it in that sense're like, I'm good, I can do this, this is my job now. Not that I've made it in that sense, like I never have to work hard, but like I'm not like a flash in the pan.

Because you didn't have this moment where you were suddenly like the number one album in the country for several weeks in a row, it's a slower, more gradual thing. How do you update your self-perception? I think that's probably something I struggle with the most. If I'm being honest is that like I would love of course for one of our songs to have to just be crowned. Like you watch that happen.

That's your hit. Yeah, like I would love for that to happen. I'm not willing artistically to like push all the chips. Like there are certain ways I think that one could do that now and you know, cause you learn like, oh man, like this type of song, you know, if you, if you have these certain elements, then like you're, you're maybe more likely.

And you know, some of that, I think you try to use, but like to go all the way in and just try to make a hit is something that I feel like because of this success over time, it's like, it's not worth like, cause those people will see that for what it is. I'll get exposed or something. But yeah, I think that's the thing I'm worst at is that I sometimes have this sort of growing chip

on my shoulder that like, man, I think what we're doing is just as good or something. But I quickly try to flush that because I think it goes back to what you were saying about like not wanting, you're talking about speaking to like a financial advisor or whatever and like being like, oh, well, soon this is gonna be over.

I think that's what drives me actually is this idea that like, well, no one's, we haven't ever had a hit. Like, you know, there's nothing that's gonna exist even in the future for us. And I do tell myself that all the time. I think I'm still pretty much the same mindset, just so funny because each album I do this where it's like, just write one more good album.

Yeah, this is your last go around. It's the Trump thing or whatever. It's like, they'll never have to be in election again. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if you make a certain quality thing, then like, of course you'll want to keep creating, but it'll be stress free. You'll be, there'll be nothing to worry about.

Like, you know, like moves hands, however, but like I know deep down that that's not true because I've gone around the loop enough times. You actually can imagine a world where this is not your last album. Like you've bought yourself a couple more shots. Exactly. And I think that's the most I've been able to change is just to start to see that like to see the patterns enough to be like, this is probably the anxiety that actually got you here at working again.

But yeah, and maybe to accept that anxiety is just like a part of the creative process for me. But I'm like if it's healthy. Yeah, I don't think, it's like, how long can you be fueled by like insecurity, doubt, scarcity? At some point you have to switch over to the fuel of like, I'm a professional that does this thing. The size of the crowd, the money might change at some point

or you're obviously at some point, all artists become less culturally relevant because it's a young person's game, but like you've established or earned enough that like your people are there you have your people and Yeah, there's there's some feeling that if you ever allow yourself to think that it's all over and you stop being creatively good But clearly that's not the case, for so many great artists. Yeah, and I try to focus on those, cause I think it's just as easy, and I'm sure it's the same,

when you look at writers, it's like, you start to get to album four or whatever, like I remember doing this for album two or whatever, being like, oh, people's second albums always flop or something like that. You can't flop here, this is a can't flop situation or whatever. And, you know, but on the flip side, we're making our fourth album

and you start to be like, well, this is usually where I have these thoughts. I'll be like, this is usually where bands kind of start to lose the thread. You know, or they they, you know, and I've thought a lot about why that is. You know, maybe they started making a little bit of money. They they're, you know, they don't need it as much or why that is. Maybe they started making a little bit of money, they don't need it as much or whatever it is. But I think being aware of those things helps me. But like I said, I'm not sure that it's a healthy way to create things, but I'm definitely like trying

to prove myself and these people who don't even know that I'm measuring myself to them wrong. My therapist said to me one time, she uses this phrase, I'm like, what I make up is. And like, it's always interesting, like how we have, you're like fourth albums worth it. But I bet I could come up with a thousand counter examples where actually like the fifth album was the biggest album. You know, it's just, we tell some story to ourselves

based on what we want to be true, even if that thing like isn't positive. Totally, confirmation bias all the way, yeah. Yeah, that's so funny. Totally, I mean, and I even, like I was gonna say, I even look when I get two down that rabbit hole, like you go in and you look at people that you really look up to,

and that's the sort of what if you're great at that, right? Is to be like, okay, you could look at this band, but like, yeah. Yeah, what if you're the national? Sure, or yeah, or like, exactly. Like these people that have just had sustained success over a longer tail. And I think at this point in a really cool way,

I think it's a privilege to be able to look at, you know, people that I look up to, like the national and, or, you know, like even like, I don't know, going further back, like the Rolling Stones, you were talking about, or, you know, anybody, right? That you look up to and seeing that, like the Rolling Stones you were talking about or, you know, anybody, right? That you look up to and seeing that like, I like to look at bands from like the 60s and 70s just because it's like, I'm still thinking about them. Yeah, that's some longevity. And if you can do that, then you solve the like the financial advisor thing. It's like, well, like people

should talk about them from the 60s or whatever. So that is the dream. And I do very much model like as much as you can, it's creativity. I can't come up with the songs those people did, but I try to understand like, what is it about the Grateful Dead? Like what is it about, sort of name the band, Neil Young or Joni Mitchell,

or like, what is it about these things that have like, they're so sustaining through like different generations, they just pick up right where the last one left off and they're like, this is great. And it's still great. It's like, there's something. And how much of it is like they kept making music and they kept touring?

Obviously some of the people died, so it's not a foolproof thing. But just the idea that the main thing is to keep doing the thing. Just keep going. Yeah, yeah. And I think eventually the thing is to like keep doing the thing. Yeah, just keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think eventually like the truth is that I love doing it and like sharing my love for music with people, hopefully.

And speaking for the band too, like we have just a bunch of people, like you can't be in the band sort of business. It's a difficult business for like a bazillion different reasons unless you like really love music. And I hope like that one thing that carries us is that like that comes off that like,

because people hopefully who are experiencing music live or recorded music have that same feeling. Yeah, it was weird. I saw a band a couple of weeks ago, I won't say who, because they gave me the tickets. But like, I was like, this is a very joyless performance. And I sent it to the person and he was like, oh yeah, he's off the wagon, that's why.

And I was like, oh, it's like an opioids thing. And I was like, oh, interesting. Because you could feel it. You could feel that this person was just doing the thing that they do, and as opposed to like being enjoying that they were up there. Yeah, we played a show in Alaska. I was just talking about this with a friend

and it was one of the best shows of the whole summer. This was a few weeks ago. And total surprise, we'd never been to Alaska. Ticket sales were great. It was sort of like, this is going so well. And then the crowd, I mean, jumping up and down, singing, you know, just picture scenes, right? Just like it went so well. And got to talking with people. And it's exactly that, right? It's that like, they're starved of people coming there.

And so when they get the chance, they just approach it with this joy of like, it doesn't, you know, there's something that happens, I think, because at least in music like it's doesn't you know there's something that happens I think because at least in music it's so saturated. Yeah. There's so many artists. Spotify has done an amazing thing to like make the pool really wide but very shallow maybe. Yeah. And I think what ends up happening is if you have amazing band on Friday, amazing band on Saturday in your city, then maybe you go there with this, in my opinion, like really shitty attitude that doesn't exist in some of the other places where you're standing there and you're like, you're genuinely listening to the music

and ranking it. Yeah, yeah. Like you're ranking it against other artists or something like that, as if that, like there's only one outcome there in which you're gonna have fun, right? When you're like, this is the best. Like if you've seen videos of some of those heavy metal bands that played behind the iron curtain in the late 80s,

sometimes early 90s, where there's, it's like, were there really 500,000 Metallica fans in Moscow or were these music fans? 100%. Like it's insane. The performance is insane because they're just like, literally anyone doing the act of music

that's a form of free expression, not from R, and it's just insane. The performances are insane. The videos, you're like, who are these people? Yeah, but that to me, so the same type of thing, but a little different is that, I saw a video a long time ago,

I think it was like Imagine Dragons, who like are a big band here, but there's like a, you know, like, is it cool enough? Who cares? They're like the Nickelback of our time. Sure. In terms of the unfair place they hold in popular. 100%. And I think super unfair because for me,

it's like, if you don't like music, then like just keep it moving. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's not like you don't, like people, of course, I'm not if you don't like music, then like just keep it moving. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's not like, you don't, I know when like people, of course, I'm not saying you can't like have a discourse where you're like, I think this is bad. Like, I think that's a fun discourse.

I'm not like even like shooting on that. But I think the reality is, is that like, if you buy tickets to this concert, Yeah. The thing that you like, that you must do is have fun. Yeah. Like don't block yourself from being able to like achieve the best possible night.

And when you see like them in Brazil, it's like, I don't know. I mean, like the Beatles or something, like people, it's like people are like just losing their minds. Yeah. And I think the point is, is like, don't fake that of course.

Like don't go there and like lose your mind. But at least put yourself in a position where you're like I'm gonna go to concert and I'm gonna have a lot of fun and to be fair I think a lot of people do this and I think people do this at our concerts which is why I think I love our fan base but you see it in varying degrees in different places right so. There's a skate park down the street and I was walking by the other day and these kids were listening to like Puddle of Mud, like young kids. And my first instinct was like, that's like not a cool band because they were not a cool band when I was a kid. And then I was like, oh, they're just able to enjoy them as a band. Like to them, they're what heavy metal was to me when I was a kid, which is like 20,

it's 20 years old. And it just is like you either like it or you don't, but you have, you're not, it's not of the moment. So you're not judging, the critical opinion is not important. Like sales are not important. It's just, it's just, are you vibing with the song or not? And there is a freedom to that, that I think foreign audiences get to enjoy,

which is why there'll be bands that are not big here. And then you'll like follow that are not big here. And then you'll like follow them on Instagram or whatever. And yeah, they're touring some stadium in Mumbai or something. And it's the audience doesn't get as much music. And then also the audience just either likes it or doesn't like it. They're not like, could you invite a girl to this show or not? You know, like it's just this is a good concert. Yes or no. Yeah.

But even I think like one step further of like, it would be hard, I think, in that, what I've seen from like, you know, picture this Brazilian audience, or the Alaskan audience for us, like, there's not much we could have done to not make that crowd have that reaction. They were going there to do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's, and I guess what I'm saying is that I think there have been eras in, that are revered in American music history and globally where that was just the attitude, right? I mean, I was... I was rated as Elvis or is it just like people liked music? And they were just like, otherwise you were sitting on the floor like listening to a radio, like this guy's crazy, you know what I mean? I think it's always relative to what's available

in your town and what's possible, but yeah, I mean, to the whole like Nickelback and stuff thing, Puddle and Mudder, whatever, one thing that I think happens, and it's like you see this politically too, where it's like people really get, like gets in their crawl if something that they don't like is wildly popular. I mean, I feel this, of course, politically, I think half the country feels one way, half the country feels other way, where the country feels the other way, where it's like, how can that be popular? Like, how can that be popular, right?

And I think that ultimately it's that you have to just accept, and once you do, once you accept that, like, I mean, maybe not so much politically, but once- Well, art is different than politics because it has no moral consequence for- Sure, it's not hurting anyone, yeah. It's not hurting anyone.

And I think that's another piece to it, where it's like, I watched a little bit of the Netflix has a nickel back, like they made it. Oh, sure. But you know, it's like, but it's their retelling and they talk a lot about this, like what it was like to be really hated. The most loved and hated band in the world.

And it's crazy. I think it's worth watching, like to see their perspective of people shouting at them from their cars, you suck and stuff like that, or whatever. Yeah, if you heard that expression, don't yuck, someone else is young. I think that's it.

As you get older, if that's not where you're going, you're going in the wrong direction. As a kid, you're trying to define yourself and figure out the world, and you have a lot of strong opinions. If you feel that way when you're 17, I'm not gonna follow you. But if you're still posting on message boards

about shit you hate when you're out of your 20s, something is going wrong in your life and your priorities. You should be... Like now, I'm actually interested in things that I don't like that are popular because I wanna know why. Like what are they doing right? What have they figured out?

Who is this audience that's being underserved? You should be thinking about it more from a place of curiosity than judgment. 100%. It's also like, it's fun to listen to these songs and know now with the context, like I think it for me, it's come all the way back around. I held similar beliefs, like I definitely was swayed in the like, this is terrible.

But now I think about it, I'm like, as a songwriter, I know that there's this thing. And I know that I think like hooks, hooks, hooks, hooks, hooks, you know, it's like, you're talking about Max Martin, I know he's talked a lot about that. It's like at the end of the day, you know like, you're talking about Max Martin. I know he's talked a lot about that. It's like, at the end of the day, you know, unless you're making wildly improvisational avant-garde jazz, and even then maybe, like at the core of the thing, the reason you think Nirvana is the coolest band is probably more circumstantial than it is like musical.

Like there are things, and Western music is like relatively simple in terms of the formula of there's only so many notes and there's really only so many notes that work pleasingly together. You're getting a lot of derivative chord structure and melody structure to the point where what's working for Nickelback has worked for a lot of people that you love.

You don't like the way it's being delivered or whatever. That's fine. Or the sort of maybe the lyrics or something, which is maybe all fair. But like, ultimately when you're able to, like you said, you just step back and be like, it's a banger. It's probably more similar to something you like than you would want to admit.

You just can't see it because the context. 100%. And that's context is very important, right? So it's like, it's okay. It's probably an oversimplification, but I think the reality is like, when time passes and the context changes, I'm really able to see like, I mean, the proof is like,

and I've heard even that like Spotify is putting more emphasis on this. This might be disinformation, but someone told me this. Like those guys, speaking of Nickelback, and so many of these bands that I think you could think of, went out and sold out arenas all over the world. Like the sample size is to a point where it's like, people like this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're wrong. It's like this humility of going like, if I don't like it and everyone else does, chances are I'm the one that's wrong. Like purely numerically, chances are sometimes, yeah, like sometimes you're the one who knew Kanye West was a piece of shit before everyone else,

or R. Kelly was a piece of shit before everyone else. There's those things, but yeah, chances are if millions and millions of people like it, there's something good about it, and you're just being conceited or annoying or contrarian, and you should find what you do like about it. Or just, again, pretend it doesn't exist because there's lots of other stuff you can be into.

Yeah, 100%. I think about, you know, ultimately those people are selling out arenas all over the world and the sort of media around it is like, this is bad. There's really no other, maybe there's another art form I'm not thinking of, but like I always relate music to sports in that way where it's like, it is bad. There's really no other, maybe there's another art form I'm not thinking of, but like I always relate music to sports in that way where it's like, it's kind of

unfortunate because actually where I think music, press, and really happened in like, I call it like the pitchfork era, so to speak, it took this, maybe it's always been this way, but at least that's my coming of age around that sort of journalism. But like it worked hard to work against what was actually happening and working oftentimes. You know, to say that it would like completely ignore acts like that to write about things, which I think in some ways is really cool and important to be like, hey, actually this is what's cool.

Even though they're playing in this really small room and they've been completely incapable of getting people to like this on any mass scale at any time. Like this is actually much cooler and people should like this, which like just because lots of people like something doesn't mean that another thing that isn't as like isn't valuable. But I think ultimately when that's all that you do, when that's like the machine is just basically being like, oh, that thing's stupid because- Just counter programming.

Yeah. And there's so much of that in music that I think, you know, and some of it's important. I really do believe that, but I think it basically says that like, there's certain types of music that make it to that point, you know, like picture like Bon Iver or something like that, where it's like, he transcended that. He was both pitchfork and arena.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like he was, and still is, an incredible artist, but there's very few examples of things like that that have like made it as far as he's made it both being critically acclaimed in the sort of like coolest of like beanie wearing circle and also like my mom like skinny older generations and people who are sort of like unaffected by that sort of media also like that music. I think it's super rare, but it doesn't take away from, you know, like our, I don't know, like our friend, Noah Khan

is having this like explosion and it's changing because he's becoming this like, you know, culturally just mad star, right? But there was this period of time where like, I felt like I, because I've seen it a little bit with us and it's like the coverage was sort of like, this is happening. No, there's a there's like a nastiness to the music press, it

has to distinguish itself from fandom. So it has to shit on certain things. And then it has to show that it has taste by liking obscure things. In publishing, it's the same thing like the books that get reviewed in the New York Times are almost never the books on the New York Times list. And that's very deliberate. They're talking about the important books, but the books that people are buying are not those books. It's silly to me,

because I think what sports has done really well is they do the opposite. They believe they're supposed to make a product that people enjoy. They cover the best teams. Yes. Like if your team is like, or the worst, which is also equally interesting, So like- Yeah, they believe they're supposed to make a product that people enjoy. They cover the best teams. Yes, yeah. Like if your team is like, or the worst, which is also equally interesting,

but the middle gets no coverage, right? Because you know, just the sort of like team that's not making the playoffs where they've won like six games and like, they don't put that game on Montyno football. They put, you know, the two best teams, they try to cover, the best stories are the most successful teams,

the most, a great play is the most watched thing. Granted, it's not like one-to-one here, but like- No, no, you're right. I think therefore they have this really robust media environment because they're actually serving the mass of people who are most interested in the thing. Whereas I do think that music journalism actually shot itself in the foot for like a decade at least,

and maybe now just playing catch up, because it was like, yeah, like, well, if you only pump up that band that only 200 people care about, then the audience for this article is like significantly limited. Now they had their own. The other thing about sports for all the money,

it's worth remembering that it's about as socialistic as you could get. Sure. It's all about creating parody. Totally. It's all about creating parity. Totally. It's all about everything is highly unionized. Yep. The profit sharing goes to everyone,

including the worst people. Like it's like, oh, actually when you create this kind of closed ecosystem that's designed to support the people in it and grow the whole thing at the same time, you get, like you look at where sports was, like 20 years ago now, 50 years ago now, just like everything is better in every way.

People do things that were physically impossible not that long ago because the whole system is about that. Yeah, and everything works in lockstep to make the thing bigger all the time. From the media is like, you know, they're so good to the media in terms of the coaches available. Now you've got basketball guys, it's like the ball's being dribbled past them. They're like, what did you think of that play?

It's like, I don't know. Yeah, they're all supporting the product, which is the experience of the fans. We talk about that in terms of how funny it would be if you play a show and like, because their lives are so crazy. It's like you play a show and it's like, you know, big show in Austin, Texas. And you walk off stage and then you go into this little room. There's a light on you. They're like, what was that cord? And the third song there, it sounded like you might have played a bad chord.

Yeah, if you were covered in real time, what would that look like? You're like, yeah, just didn't drink enough coffee today. You know, whatever. There's just not any artists big enough. I mean, Taylor Swift's the only one who can do that. There's a few. You want to go check out some books? Let's do it. Taylor Swift's the only one who can do that. There's a few. You wanna go check out some books?

Let's do it. ["Sweet Home Alone"] Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.

["Sweet Home Alone"] If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, would you tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey on Wondery.com slash survey. Have you ever wondered who created that bottle of Sriracha that's living in your fridge? Or why nearly every house in America

has at least one game of Monopoly. Introducing the best idea yet, a brand new podcast from Wondery and T-Boy about the surprising origin stories of the products you're obsessed with, and the bolder-est takers who brought them to life. Like, did you know that Super Mario, the best-selling video game character of all time, only exists because Nintendo couldn't get the rights to Popeye? Or Jack, that the idea for the McDonald's Happy Meal first came from a mom in Guatemala, from Pez dispensers to Levi's 501s to Air Jordans, discovered the surprising stories of the most

viral products. Plus, we guarantee that after listening, you're going to dominate your next dinner party. So follow the best idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to the best idea yet early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's just the best idea yet.