The Daily Stoic - Mt. Joy’s Matt Quinn on Creating Work That Lasts

Episode Date: August 13, 2022

Ryan talks to Mt. Joy’s frontman Matt Quinn about the current state of the music industry, how to create work that lasts, our responsibility for each other, and more. Matt Quinn is the frontman and songwriter for hit Philly folk group Mt. Joy. They named themselves Mt. Joy as an ode to a mountain in Valley Forge National Park. Matt was actually only a couple of months into law school when the single “Astrovan” began racking up hundreds of thousands of plays on Spotify. ✉️  Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance and wisdom. And then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think,

to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. I think I've talked about my musical habits before I listen to music when I walk. Often I listen to music when I run definitely when I work out.

And then when I write, I'm always listening to music. And for me, it's not like, oh, these are the bands that I'd like to listen to. It's usually one song. It's not like all the time, the same song. But when that song is my song, that is a song I'm listening to when I'm working out when I'm writing when I'm going for I wear a song out like it's funny you might be able to hear a little bit of background noise, I forgot to close my door all the way but my uh there's a record shop next door to the painted porch and the music is sort of trickling up and over into my office right now. been over into my office right now. If I was more of a vinyl record listener, I'm not, I usually, it's through my AirPods, I wear out the records that I like. And it would be very inconvenient because I'd have to be always going back to start that song over

again. Like, there's repeat, like people listen to repeat. And most people don't, not everyone knows that if you click the repeat button again, like on Spotify or iTunes or whatever, you can listen to one thing on repeat, which is how I listen to music and I have listened to many songs From today's band over and over again I am a fan of this band Mount Joy I don't know how I discovered them, but I like their songs silver lining. I like their songs Strangers. I like sheep. I like, let's see here, Jenny Jenkins. I've listened to many times younger days. I've listened to many times. It's actually their song, Younger Days, is I quoted in a daily stoke email about Kato many months ago, and that's how the manager,

the band reached out to set up today's interview. I like I'm your rec also on Mount Joy, this is their 2018 album. A rearranges is really good. I like strangers from that album, rearranges, as I said, is a great song on there. Their new album just came out orange blood, and the song Lemon Tree is probably my favorite on that

album. My point is I like this band. They fit right into my sort of niche of a music that's great on a loop. And so in today's episode, I interview Matt Quinn. He's the vocal vocalist and the guitarist for the band. They are, they've had an interesting story. They blew up from this song Astro Van, which is also really good. And in today's episode, we dive in a mat success with Mount

Joy, his commitment to modern folk music and, you know, how you make it in the music business, what your obligations are as an artist. And you can follow the band on Instagram and Twitter at MTJOY band so that's at MTJOY B-A-N-D and check them out on Spotify. I think I think their stuff is great. I'm a big fan. I'll try to link to some of the songs in today's episode but here's my enjoyable interview with the one and only Matt Quinn from a band I really enjoy. Mount Joy. Well, what are you in a hotel room?

You're on the road? Yeah, man, I'm in a hotel room here in Detroit, just outside of Detroit, on our way to Canada tomorrow, setting up the border crossing. So I'm gonna hampton in and beautiful wherever I am Detroit. There you go. I just got back from, I had a talk in Georgia yesterday, but I feel like what I do is a little easier in that I don't have to bring anyone

or any stuff with me. I feel like public speaking is the easiest of all the touring, comedy is next. And then, but like you guys have, like I can't, I can only imagine getting a drum kit anywhere. It's just an enormous pain in the ass. It I just spent the last, I don't even know, two hours trying to figure out just how to get the merch that we have into Canada without incurring large charges.

So yeah, I wish I was giving a speech. Yeah, like I have no writer, I have no preferences. Sometimes they're like, you know, could you get there like an hour before? And I was like, I'll get here three minutes before. How about that? You know, like I don't have to do anything. I love that. Yeah, you know, I was actually just talking, I went to, I saw Phoebe Bridgers here in Austin and I was talking to someone about this. I knew someone at the event and we were talking about like merch sales. Like a band at this point is really kind of like a traveling retail store, right?

Like obviously you make music, you make money from selling tickets, you make money from streaming a little bit, but really it's all a loss leader to set up the merch booth, which is the only area that the band really controls and has decent margins on, right? Yeah, I mean, you're not wrong. I think especially, I always think about in the 90s, which is where I first started buying music, you would go into FYE or Sam Goodey or whatever the place was,

and you would buy a 14, 99 piece of plastic that contained the music. And obviously now, things are way different. Vinyl has made a small comeback, but really at the merch stand, right? Like vinyl is sort of folded into that merch thing you're talking about. So it's true.

You know, you can actually sell a t-shirt and make, it's got 100, probably a thousand X, what you'll make on people listening to your art. So. Yeah, and I remember, like, what I remember is I was a huge metal fan as a kid, and I remember reading some metal article about some band that wasn't huge, and that like $10,000 had been, they didn't robbed after a show, right?

It was like $10,000 was stolen from the, you know, in cash or stolen from the merchant booth or whatever. And I remember it hit me that like, if I told my parents, I wanted to open a t-shirt store. That was like, I wanted to have a small business, like I wanted to open a t-shirt store, that was like, I wanted to have a small business, like I wanted to have a clothing store. They'd be like, well, that's hard, but like, that's like honest work, right? They'd think that that was like, that's a profession that people had. Like, we knew people that let's say owned a t-shirt store or whatever. But if I was like, mom,

I want to join a heavy metal band. It should be like, that's crazy. You can't do that, right? And the idea that basically these bands are these sort of traveling small businesses is not how people think about it because one they think about it as artistic and creative, which of course it is, or they see it as this wildly unpredictable, unprofitable thing, but it's really a store

that goes from town to town. 100%, I mean, for us, we're fortunate, we look every night at our per-head merch numbers, and in addition to being artists and trying to, you know, alchemize our pain and trauma into music and all of those things that we like, you know, try to claim to be the most important

and we try to keep those things the most important. And in the day, we're paying a lot of attention to our people buying merch. You know, are we doing the merch numbers? We wanna be doing and ultimately that's because, you know, that is one of the biggest parts of the business, really, unfortunately, maybe not, unfortunately, but I don't know. Well, it is weird, too, because all of a sudden, it presents you with a bunch of ethical considerations that you wouldn't think you would have to do, right? You're like, well, what T-shirt manufacturer

do we use? Is it organic cotton? Is it not organic cotton, right? Is it made in the US? Is it not made in the US? Suddenly, you're like this miniature manufacturer, like industrialist who has to make these like decisions that like you would think only, like, yeah, like some fashion entrepreneur, the guy who runs Whole Foods would have to make. But all of a sudden, you're having to think about suppliers, inventors, and environmental impact. And it's like, it'll take longer if we ship it by boat. But if I send it by plane, it's worse for the environment. You have to think about all this crap that is suddenly your problem. Yeah, I think there's like two things that come to mind when you said that one is, you

have this not for long aspect of music where like for bands like I don't even know what the statistics are but our lawyer like read them out to us the other day like the percent chance that we would even be in the position that we're in is like incredibly small. If you think about like you know try to measure some of the statistics of numbers of songs that are uploaded to Spotify a day or just try to find some like raw metric for like what actually is the probability that Mount Joy would, that you be in Mount Joy and be having this success. It's such a small thing that you want to, the one positive of what you're saying is that

I know that at the end of all of this, I will be a multifaceted business person like, you know, like I do understand supply chain, I do understand a lot of things I didn't understand when I built this business. And we were talking about today actually, like how important it is to actually slough off the notion that like, you know, just try to let your manager handle this stuff and be an artist. And I think that is like the worst advice

I could give to a band right now is like, you are running a small business. And if you don't have your fingerprints all over that small business, not only will you lose and sacrifice artistic control because they're one in the same often, but your business will fail because you're not running your business. You're letting someone else who has maybe a vested interest, but maybe is managing other projects as well. Now, this is your thing.

You've got to manage it and you've got to learn all that stuff. And you're not going to get the transferable skills if you do something else later or the industry changes. You want to have know how shit works. You don't just want to be able to do the singular thing that got you in the position to begin with. 100%. And then I think the second thing that I honestly think about is

like, how do we fix this and your brain sort of goes to a million different places, but I think for me it's like, maybe it's more about adapting than fixing, You know, it's more about trying to be a band that adapts and just rolls with the punches, because we know that we, on one hand, don't have a lot of time. So the amount of energy that it takes a band to just do sort of all of these things, I think it's almost better to try to learn to roll with the punches. And you know, you brought up Phoebe Bridger.

It's like, I just think that's a great example of a person who is such a perfect artist for this moment. Like, she's so good at capturing people's imaginations on social media and everything like that on top of also being this great artist. And I think that's now the challenge whether we like it or not. Yeah, it's tricky too because it is like all the creative professions, whether you're writing books or making music or you, or you have the hot app of the moment. There is this kind of like, it's not gonna last, you gotta get everything you can,

while you can, don't take it for granted, et cetera, don't get distracted. At the same time, how do you sort of plan for a future, and ideally set up what you do to last? Right? So it's like that tension, I think, is a difficult thing because it could, in a weird way, thinking like, hey, this isn't going to last. No one lasts. Could actually speed up how short your 15 minutes are because you do crappy work. You don't care about every tiny little detail. You're too caught up in the present moment or the trends or whatever.

How do you think about the tension between those things? You know, like I said, I think it's hard, but I think that is the challenge. Right? Like you have challenges that you're overcoming all the time to be in the position that you're in and to be successful. I think it's the same for bands right now. It's like, like I said, you can waste energy worrying about how could I possibly be the maximized my artist potential. But at the end of the day, I guess a lot of that is, and we talk about this too, it's

like, well, what do you want out of it? And it's just like any other business that you build, it's like, what are your goals? I mean, maybe you don't need to make yourself a genius in merch or a genius in this and that. If your goals are, I want to play 200 capacity venues, and I just want to make this a side project and a side hustle. Then maybe you can focus more on the artistic side of it and there's something really beautiful about that. I'm not putting that down in any way.

But I think if you do have these larger aspirations, unfortunately, this is the game. Another thing that I think about is right now, I think bands are marketing companies. As every company is, yeah, and you've gotta relish that a little bit. I think otherwise, you just won't reach your goals. That's just where it is. You guys kind of blew up unexpectedly, if I remember correctly, right?

It wasn't this kind of slow rise, although I think you're, once you zoom out, once the timeline gets long enough, it'll actually seem like a slow steady rise. But like, you kind of popped in a way that even surprised you guys, right? Yeah, I mean, I think I was in law school. You know, I would be lying if I said it wasn't surprising, but I think it was really just this thing that still exists now. We were one of the first bands and Spotify did it for us, but where the playing field has gotten leveled in a way, there's a lot of negatives to this.

Obviously, I've been talked about with TikTok and how maybe it's ruining certain aspects of art and stuff like that, but it's sort of, I think, a continuation of what happened to us, what's happening on TikTok now. It's just for us, it was Spotify. And we put a song up there. I was in school. I was, you know, proud of the songs that we had made. And I thought that people were going to like them.

But I had no idea, you know, that when we put it on Spotify, it would go viral within the app. They started play listing it and the data, I guess they were getting back from the song was good so they continued to play listed and it sort of had its viral moment within Spotify. And this was 2016. And it's an interesting thing because I think it's happening now at even faster scale, right? Like TikTok is just doing this at an extraordinary rate, where it's just binding things sort of outside of,

I call it like the music industrial complex, you know, has this very slow churning marketing machine that decides a single and they put money behind a radio campaign and that's how things used to be done and still are done in part. But for us, it was sort of this surprising thing, and I think for a lot of people, that's the new normal, right?

Like you put something up on TikTok, or you sing something in your car, or a lot of these success stories now, I think are sort of happening more quickly. Your ability to scale success at this point is pretty unlimited to, you know, I guess the algorithms of these applications that can really run your numbers up

and get your music in front of a lot of people and for us that was Spotify. Yeah, it's the algorithm, it's like the most powerful thing in the world and it's like this wave that like, you can kind of set yourself up to surf. Like because if you're not making stuff, right, then obviously the algorithm can't surface you. But you really have no idea what the algorithm wants, what will work.

There's this huge amount of randomness and luck to it. But it's this thing. It's like, at least if you knew it was like, yeah, I can't tell. Is it more fair or less fair than the old system of like gatekeepers, right? Because at least they were a human being and maybe you could convince them, but they were also inherently corrupt and had certain biases. And then the algorithm is just just random. I remember my publisher was, there's something going wrong with Amazon.

And I was like, well, can't your salesperson like reach out to the rep at Amazon? And they're like, there's no rep. It's just an algorithm. Like we can't yell at this computer algorithm that's doing something incorrectly. And it's just like, it's just a real thing. Yeah, like you said,

I don't know about the fairness thing because it's pretty tough to say. I mean, in some ways, ultimately, the cynic in me says, maybe write when something breaks, like write when a TikTok happens or write when a Spotify really starts to have the impact I was describing, there is this like overall fairness to it, but you know, once whether it's labels or in your case publishers or whomever, you know, those are powerful institutions and you know, I think like as we see in every part of our society today like once powerful institutions learn the game

it typically find a way to rig it. And so I don't know if it's necessarily, you know, I think over time TikTok will become less equitable, but maybe at its core, the algorithm isn't necessarily, it maybe is like the most fair, right? But then once it opens itself up to monetization and who's going to monetize us? Well, who's got the big bags of money? It's the labels, it's the publishers. It's the people that have been doing it and they have the market share, right?

So I think it's a tough question because I think technically the answer is it is more fair, but for how long? I don't know. When it kind of creates this weird phenomenon, like if I was to think about how I heard about you guys, I don't know if I know. It's definitely not like,

oh, obviously the radio, that's where you hear about new things, right? Or it's definitely MTV, that's where you hear about new things. Like, it could have been on TikTok, it could have been on Instagram, it could, like, there's just this kind of vagueness where stuff just like surfaces and then enters your

world view and then you're like, I don't know why this is here or why they thought it was for me, but now I know about it. And you could be the only one in the world that knows it or it could be the biggest thing in the world. Like, it's this weirdness where we all kind of, we're all living in our different algorithms too. And sometimes things are huge and then sometimes things are huge only to a small amount of

people. Yeah, that's a really good point. And it's something we talk about is who is a Mount Joy fan? Like it's never been harder, like I said, we're a marketing company. And that's like, marketing 101 is like, who are we marketing to? Yeah, right. And we ask ourselves that all the time and you do have some like relatively macro data points

within whether it's Spotify or whatever they tell you. Maybe your gender breakdown and like an age breakdown and stuff but to get deeper than that is, it's harder. And I actually think there's some, like I said, with everything, I'm not just gonna be the most, everything is in the middle kind of guy, but I think it is kind of like that with this where it's like,

it's kind of good and bad in the sense that I think it can allow for like a more diverse audience in terms of, I think in the past, you know, you talked about being a metal fan, you know, I think in the past, like talked about being a metal fan, I think in the past, like being a metal fan meant a certain thing, and it still does, like, you know, you're a certain type of person and makes you cool or whatever it is that like brings, and I don't mean that in a negative way, like I think it does make you cool in a certain, in a certain way,

right? But now I think it's like anyone can be a metal fan, like you can be a closet metal fan, like you can bring a closet metal fan, like you can bring a It's not a whole lifestyle. Yeah, exactly and I think that brings different people to the like we do these VIP Meetings where we get to talk to people. It's pretty remarkable like the vast difference in like human being that likes Mount Shore and it speaks to speaks to what you're talking about. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable.

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So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Yeah, I had Chuck Klosterman on it. He was talking about that, like, how much of that was a product of scarcity from the 90s, right? The book's really good, but you're saying it's like, okay, so you had so few avenues to express who you were or to follow those interests that you tended to really pick something and go very deep in it. But now you could be a fan of 5,000 different things on a relatively surface level. And since you

don't necessarily have to pay for any of it, the cost of being a fan are lower, right? Which is great because you can discover new things, but you're not necessarily hyper-invested in things that you're a fan of. No, I think we are definitely like, as a people, we are on a graph, we are less pointy, you know? It's like, that is definitely true. And a graph, we are less pointy, you know, it's like, we are, that is

definitely true. And, and I, you're probably right, probably is a lot to do with these algorithms. It's weird. I, like, your music is very much seared in my brain because, so, rearranges came out when, like, summer of 2020. Yep. Yeah, I was June of 2020, yeah. And And so I don't remember if I'd heard of you before, but I remember listening to that album of Bunch, and then it feels like, it, one, it feels like the world was very quiet in that moment, right? Even though crazy stuff was happening, nobody was really doing anything. So like there was a lot less noise, right? And so it was sort of, I feel extra seared in my brain. And then I remember we ended up, we drove from Texas to the west coast in a camper to see my in-laws.

We were sort of very COVID-procacious at this moment. And so I don't know about you, but do you ever have music that's just sort of very seared in your brain? It's like a time and a place. You know what I mean? For me, totally. I think most music is that for me. I often will hear a song even yesterday actually on the bus. On the bus ride here to Detroit, we were playing theme songs from shows from our childhood. So it was literally like, there was some sort of Spotify playlist. Yeah. And what it was doing is exactly there was some sort of Spotify playlist. Yeah.

And what it was doing is exactly what you're talking about where someone would play one and I'd be like, oh, pinky in the brain. And it would put me on the couch. You know, it would put me in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's in whole another rabbit hole to go down is like, how much good music sort of gets lost

in the shuffle of maybe like a children's show from the past, but then you hear it and you have this recognition and this deep nostalgia of like those shows and that music and yeah, for sure. Yeah, the 90s particular was super weird about theme song whereas you're just like, man, like the family matters theme really started off hard.

Like what was that? Like, and I guess people made their whole living just like writing those songs, whereas now it might be a three-second thing in a title card or they'll pick some famous song. But like somebody really wrote like a whole song for step-by-step or whatever it was, you're like, okay. 100% and some of them like, yeah,

we were listening to them yesterday. I mean, some are better than others, but it's interesting how much our memory, at least, you know, I was a child of the 90s and like, it's interesting how much our memory, at least, I was a child of the 90s and it's interesting how much of that we remember, but it's not in the front of your brain, obviously, but then you hear it. And it was a really funny moment. It was the theme song for the show recess.

And our guitar tech, there's of cinematic aspect to it where it sort of opens with like a loud speaker or something like that. And then I like, right on the on Ques, like, here comes the piccolo flute. And then there is this flute that like plays a melody line. I was like, how was that in your brain? He's like, I don't know. I just knew it was coming. It was crazy.

Well, and it's because you watched it over and over and over again. And there was so much less. Also, this goes to the point about COVID, like things felt quieter in June 2020. Like there were so many fewer shows, right? You had so much fewer things competing for your attention. And it was so much more of a shared experience, right? So it's like, something like an average episode of like Seinfeld is like what the Super Bowl does now

or whatever, you know, like where they're like, or like the January 6th hearings, they're like 20 million people watch them and it's like that would have been like, yeah, an episode of Full House, you know, in 1996 or something. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think everything is is less deep. You're right. Like, I, I, I, for us though, I think during the pandemic, it benefited us in some ways because I think a lot of bands and

rifly so just shut it down. Like they just, whether by privilege of like they kind of could and there wasn't much to do, to be honest. So they kind of shut it down. But we were in this mode where we were in a full, you know, growth, like a great growth cycle. Like we were looking forward to getting bigger. We had just come off a big support tour

where we were playing basketball arenas with the luminaires. And to have things shut down in that moment was, you know, really not an option for us in terms of, we needed to keep growing. And we kind of, you know, within reason, just kept our heads down and we did some, you know, pod shows or drive-in shows and the things that we could do. And what we found was that we were competing

in a marketplace all of a sudden that like had a fraction of the competitors, you know? Well, interesting. And we really blew up, I think, the most during the pandemic. Because of that, in a lot of ways, I think, you know, when you're not up against radio head and the luminaires and, you know, some of these guys who, of ways, I think when you're not up against radio head and the luminaires and you know some of these guys who You know quite frankly are bigger bands than us and draw more attention than us

And maybe rightfully so right but when you don't have to go up against those guys weaken and weak out You get people who were bored like you said and even I think there's there's something to what I thought you were getting to a little bit There is like I actually think if this January six hearings were happening during COVID, I think the eyeballs on it would be exponentially higher. I think everyone was locked in on what they could be locked in on, you know? Yeah, that's why Tiger King and all these shows

like blew up because we were like, it kind of took us back to that old world where it's not that there were fewer choices because there was a lot of choices, but we all kind of wanted us back to that old world, where it's not that there were fewer choices because there was a lot of choices, but we all kind of wanted to do stuff together. And it was kind of back to that like appointment viewing world that art and entertainment used to be. Like I remember going to Tower Records as a kid

to get an album when it came out, right? Like, which now is non, like, it's impossible to communicate that. Like I was trying to, I was trying to think of like things that you'll tell your kids that they won't believe, like any of the words in the sentence. And it's like, yeah, I went to tower records with a gift card to buy a CD the day it came out. Be like, what? But what are you talking about? That's like none of those underlying facts

or concepts exist anymore. So the whole sentence sounds like gibberish. Totally, totally. I mean, yeah, I think our only hope for that is there's this small flame that won't go out right now and keeps growing a little bit bigger each year, which is vinyl. Binyl is, and we see that firsthand, like we sell a decent amount of vinyl. And kids are, I think there's just that pendulum, right, where it's like, what you just said

is super true, but it's so true and it's gotten to the point where I think people do want to have a physical interaction with music and they've cut because I think a lot of young people especially have never had it. Like you just said. So it offers. I invested in a company a couple of, like, seven or eight years ago called Vinyl Me. And, it's like a mate, like, every week, or every month, the album they choose is like the best-selling album in the world. Like, because like, how, you know, it's typically so spread out over so many different groups that for a vinyl album, sell like 10,000 copies in a month, it's like an obscene amount, right? Or whatever.

But it is super weird. So I have a bookstore here in Austin, outside Austin, and one half of it's my bookstore, and I rent the other half out to a vinyl record shop. And people travel from all over to, like come shop for used vinyl records. And it's like, it's mind blowing, but then I was talking to the owner of it,

and he was like, I don't sell records. I sell the experience of shopping for records. And I was like, oh, I get that. That makes total sense. Yeah, I think there's definitely that. And we're actually going through the country right now doing vinyl signings. We just put out our records so we're doing,

you know, in stores where we'll sit and we'll sign the vinyl with the table in the back. And just like you said, at the end of each of those, I walk around and there is something to that. It's an experience. Like, I now know, like, little things like, I really like Bob Marley, but it's kind of hard to find, like in print, you know, Bob Marley. Like, because people love Bob Marley and you can kind of see that like, print, Bob Marley, like because people love Bob Marley and you can kind of see that like, oh, in just like collecting baseball cards or anything else, you can start to see the pattern

of like, oh, I know what I need to get my hands on. Yeah. And there's something there that I think will sustain. I don't know at what level, but you're right, it isn't experienced. Well, and it's just like, it's big and you hold it and the art is cool. It's like, it's a thing, right?

And so, like, I think about this with my bookstore, it's like, people want to go have brunch with their friends and then do something, you know? And so they'll have brunch and then they'll hang out in the bookstore and then they'll go home, you know? Like, that's like, that is a nice Sunday. 100% I also think it's cool. Vinyl, talk about this with metal. Like, vinyl is a cool thing.

I think people who interact with vinyl, what, you know, they have vinyl player, they have a set up in their house. I talk about this a bit too, where there's a really cool thing about vinyl, which is the shared experience, which is kind of what we're talking about, but actually like most of the way we listen to music, you're wearing headphones right now, a lot of the way music has shifted post-final is a super personal experience where you actually plug the music

directly into your brain and no one else can hear it. And then you walk throughout the day and you make these decisions about music, which is neither here nor there, I guess. But vinyl forces you to share your music with others if they're in the house. I mean, you could, I guess, plug headphones into a vinyl player, but the most part,

it's a speaker operation where you play music throughout your house. At the end of four or five songs, you actually physically have to get up and make a decision about whether you're gonna play the other half or it's just this super shared experience of like I grew up listening to music in my house. My dad would put on records in the morning

and he'd get up before me and there'd be music playing in the house. And it's a vibe. Like music is that to me is what music has to offer in terms of mental health. I think you walk into a kitchen that doesn't have any music on versus like one of your favorite soothing songs is playing from a record player, you know, in the living room. I think that's something that brings people together and it's what makes music of the

60s and 70s and 80s for that matter different than the 90s, 2000s is that I think it was more of a shared experience you have. The love and all that stuff, but I think a lot of that comes from people sharing music with each other. So when you guys blew up, how do you, how does that not, how do I say go to your head? But how do you stay sort of focused and sane

when suddenly you go from, you know, like a side project to millions and millions of streams. That must have been like head spinning. Well, I go back to what we were talking about before. There's so many things that will humble you at whatever level you're at in the music industry in terms of the millions of streams is great. And it, it does maybe make your head big, but once you get in that van and you realize that, we're not making but hundreds of dollars, we've got a song that's viral on Spotify,

and this guy is pulling out ones to pay us. There's like, there's like an amount that requires ones. It's humbling and it puts you in this grind that I think isn't some way is unhealthy, but in terms of being humble, it's easy to stay humble especially in the beginning because those streams, and I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions is, I mean, those things are paying you essentially best-case scenario if you have a record deal, like a quarter of a, so like 0.0025 cents per stream. Split over is like six people.

Yeah. So it's not, it's just not meaningful financial reward. So you've got to find these other avenues and you really got to dig it out there because Yes, Spotify helps put sell tickets, but I think To a lesser extent than people think Yeah, I just mean it it's like you sort of go from a world where you just make your stuff and nobody knows about it So you get to think about it just as what it is and then all of a sudden There's like these people right there's the audience the audience exists. And it's a considerate, like I heard someone

one say about, I think it's a Greg Popovich quote, he's the coach of the spurs. He says, you've only never won once, right? So then you win. And now everything's different. And I think that kind of had once you get your big break, as they call it, you never go back, even if you become obscure or less popular, the audience still exists, because potentially they could come back and it changes everything forever. Yeah, honestly, and this is just what came to mind. But I think it's something that we struggle with a little bit on the second record, but we were really flying through touring. We toured so much on that first record because we had that success you're talking about,

and we had this opportunity. We had very little time, I think, to think about some of the like, oh, we have an audience now, and some of that stuff was like, we were just flying, we had like six weeks to make a record. And we did it, and I'm proud of it. But one of the things that comes to mind is, you know, your brain does go a little crazy. And I recall obviously some difficult moments, like in the first maybe two years,

I actually have the band, like, you know, a lot of your life changes around you because you're touring so much. And I think like the second album, we call it a rearranges. And it's because like every single one of our girlfriends or boyfriend's dumped us like in this like sort of six month period, it was sort of like the romance famine or something like that. But you're just gone all the time. Is that was that one all the time? Gone all the time. And when you're back, it's like this re assimilation into this totally different world. It's difficult. It's difficult even to this day. But I honestly, and this is not an actual

plug, but my friend sent me the daily stoic like, I don't even know, maybe three or four years ago. And I think it's just helpful to have something to tether you to controlling what you can control. Like, that is like, to me, the thing that we think about all of the time, specifically just in this world where, of course, we just put out a third album. We want it to do better than, you know, whatever the possibilities are.

But at the end of the day, like, we're so fortunate to be where we're at. And we put in a lot of hard work. And if we just keep doing that, like, that sort of this thought at least in my head is like, if we just keep getting better and practicing our instruments and doing all these, like, sort of obvious, controllable things, then the outcome will at least be not a failure. Like, I believe that for us. And that's really kind of been armada. Yeah, I feel like that's been the journey I've tried to be on.

It's like, I feel like I've said this before, but I feel like on my first book, I was like 90-10, like 90 percent, or other people going to say it's a success, how many copies did it sell, how did it do, all that, and 10% like, I know I did my best, I'm really proud, it was fun to do. And I think it's been a process with each book to getting closer to flipping that ratio. Like you wanna get to a place where you've largely won everything it's possible to win in terms of feeling good, proud, satisfied, you know, expressed, etc. You want to get

there like before the general public has even received it. For sure. And like, you know, for me, I feel like I'm there. I feel like I'm, and I, if I'm being honest with myself, I've been there for a long time. Like I had this dream growing, growing up, going to concerts, being a fan. There's a specific venue in Philadelphia which is where I'm from, where I went to see a show and the, the band was from Philly, and they shouted out that their parents were the in the audience. And I just thought about the crowd went crazy. And I just thought about like, that's it.

That's what I want to do. Like I just want to sell a venue out in my hometown and like have my family there and have this really specific dream. And, you know, we've done two nights at that venue now. Like we've, you know, we've, we've sort of like it clipped whatever the dream was in my mind. Obviously the poisonous pill is that once you do it,

there's just another thing. There's just another, there's always the carrot and the stick sort of thing, but I do often have to remind myself like, I'm already there. I've already done the thing that I could have never dreamed of. And I think part of it for me is like, making sure you're still motivated to get that carrot, but also not freaking out about, you know, things that.

Well, that's the tricky thing, right? People think like if you can get to a place of enoughness where like no longer is the work you do about justifying your existence as like a human being, we are not making it from that place of insecurity or desire to be, or whatever, I won't make good stuff anymore, or I won't make stuff at all anymore. Which is probably just as insidious as the idea that like you have to be like a torture drug addicted, whatever to be a creative artist also.

Yeah, I mean, I have been lucky to mostly stay away from like doing crazy drugs and stuff like that. We've been fortunate as a band in general, but you know, I've been in places where whether I was like smoking too much weed or drinking too much, and I can say for me personally that the best writing that I do is the clarity after something like that is actually retrospectively looking back from a place of health and a place of energy and renewed energy at a situation like a breakup. I think in the actual breakup, I think I'm still writing songs about breakups that happened

a long time ago because I have this ability now to actually evaluate it for what it is. It's kind of like the, I think of it more like, you know, when you're really mad at somebody, it's not the best time to send the text. You know, it's like, yeah, you're gonna say something fiery and probably make things at least a little bit worse than if you were to just step back from that situation,

find a platform of health or a better mindset and then send that message from that plateau. It's the same with writing for me. Yeah, it's like, are you gonna make stuff from a place of insecurity and ego and greed and attention seeking, or are you going to make a place, or are you going to make, and you can see why stuff like that can resonate with people. But I think it's more when you're in touch with like who you are, what you're going through, what really matters when you're doing it for the right, I think

you ultimately make better stuff. I agree. And like I said, I think there's a place for that, like you said, and I actually wonder sometimes if the sort of instant, gratt, tiktok, world that we live in is sort of hungry for that stuff. And that some people do get rewarded for that. But actually, I'm not sure that it has the shelf life of something that's better thought

out. And maybe, you know, like that's what I think the power, hopefully, of our band is, is that like, there's stuff that stands the test of time, messages that like are sort of, you know, a little more thought out, I guess. No, I think that's probably the problem with some hip-hop music. I love hip-hop, but like, when it is rooted in what is ephemeral or now,

or even solely about, you know, sort of either entertainment or, you know, like, you know,ed anism or whatever. It works in the moment and it may actually be a ticket to reaching a large amount of people in a short amount of time, but like Empire State of Mind is gonna be one of the biggest hip-hop songs of all time,

because New York City's not going anywhere, right? So because it's rooted in something that's perennial and timeless and generational, like in that each generation rediscoveres it in its own way, I would venture to guess that song, again, or another one might be like California Love, which is like, you know, been around now for probably what 30 years. You know, those songs which are rooted more in something deeper, I think have a longer shelf life than, you know, the shorter term stuff. That makes sense.

No, I think I think you're totally right. And I actually think that both things can be true. Like, I think the shorter term stuff can be shorter term stuff and can be important art still. It can be people can be impacted by that in meaningful and important ways. But I think the thing that you're getting at that I think is important is that it doesn't need to be like that. And there are a lot of artists that I think maybe need to hear that.

And they worry about and are self-conscious about their longevity, if they're not doing drugs or being depressed or whatever. They're trying to get to a depressive state even to write a song. And at the end of the day, I really truly believe, and it sounds cheesy, but I really truly believe that actually even what TikTok is showing us maybe more than ever is that people want your authentic self. In the moment at that time, they want to be presently, authentically yourself. If you're an artist, they want you to express in that moment, presently, authentically, who you are and what it is that you're feeling and wanting to project into the world. And I think, especially this younger generation,

they have lived with so much fake marketing that they can sniff it like a dog. And it's just such proof that you don't need to be going to a dark place or going to any place. You just need to be and just be yourself and be as healthy as you can and make your art and I think you'll get rewarded for that. And if you don't, it probably won't be because you were depressed or weren't depressed enough for something.

Well, it's like the idea and comedy that like the most specific is the most general. It's about sort of mining what's going on with you, not making something up that you think people want or that you think will work. It's like, it's sort of figuring out what that is and finding a way to express that. 100% and easier said than done and that's the quest, right? I think it's like, if you can, you know, comedy is a great example. Like, I think of at least my favorite comedians and I've a pretty general taste that seems to always be the guys that I like are like the biggest comedians in the world. So I think it's a pretty good case study of those guys to me seem to be digging at the truth. Their jokes are observations about the realities that we all exist in.

And from an angle, their genius, I think, is actually digging out how I never thought about how ridiculous that situation is, right, or something like that? And that sort of excavation, you know, I don't think requires you to necessarily be depressed or anything like that. Have you seen the George Carlin dock on HBO? I haven't, but I looked in. It's so good. I had no way.

So basically, he starts off as the most buttoned down square comedian you could possibly imagine. Like, you know, like, suits, ties, network television, you know, could say nothing remotely controversial, you know, following all the codes, etc. And he has, he makes this decision at some point to sort of blow that all up and become sort of like the hippie comm... the hippie comic. But it's really interesting to watch him sort of like he has to play the game for a while and he does it, but he realizes that it's coming fundamentally from a false place and he has to sort of blow that all up to become like the artist that he was actually meant to be.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a quest that I'm currently on. And I imagine like anyone writing in today's world is at least a little bit trying to, and we talked about this in the beginning, I think, like, it's trying to break down who they are and, and like, really fine tune that and, and then figure out what is interesting about that. And, and then how do you, how do you portray that to people? And, and for music, it might not even be lyrical content, right? It might be like, all right, I'm a guy that, you know, likes to go to the desert and do shrooms. So like, what does that sound like on guitar? You know like what is how do I express that musically? And really I think

Especially about you talked about being sort of timeless. I think that requires and sounds like George Parlin You know did this maybe better than anyone it requires a bit of a middle finger to whatever people are telling you to do in the moment because you have to have this bigger picture of, maybe this type of music isn't like the perfect viral trending TikTok thing right now, but I'm trying to have this last for decades. So I have to be confident in what I'm doing. Yeah, there's a line that I guess he used to close a bunch of his

Specials with where you would say like take care of yourself and take care of somebody else too And it actually reminded me I think of I forget what song it is But one of my favorite lines from one of your songs we say like to free yourself. You have to free somebody What does that mean to you? Honestly, I took that from From Tony Morrison. Really? Who, like, I think her line is something to that effect of, you know, it's not enough to be free. You know, part of being free is to free somebody else. And I thought of it in the terms of,

sorry, I thought of it in the terms of, sorry, I thought of it in terms of, relationships, but also in the moment that we were in, I guess in 2020, and it just feels like part of the responsibility of being in a band at this point is like trying to use whatever platform you have to show people that like, you know, for that particular song, I guess it was about, you know, if you're in that relationship zone where you're... So for strangers, I think for me, the thing was in the relationship zone where people

kind of hang on and there's that classic like look if you if you actually let go of this person in order to truly be free yourself, you know, you kind of have to free the other person to live their life, but I just thought that was such a powerful line and um yeah it's something that stuck with me. Yeah no I love that line uh and it's like line. And it's like the idea of like your expectations for a person are sort of imprisoning both of you. Do you know what I mean? Like you wanting them to be a certain way not only prevents them from being that way, but it also makes you miserable, I feel? 100% and I actually think that it goes further than that, even into just everything we're going through right now as a society, it's like, if we have that mindset, I think that's how you can not only change

your own personal life and I was hoping, if that's the goal for me, we have a song called sheep as well, which sort of touches on a similar idea of like, you know, ultimately, the only way for, and I mean, today's a particularly dark day, I guess, right, with Roe v Wade and everything like that. It's like, if you lose hope as the majority, then that's how the minority wins, you know, it's like they push you into a corner of not believing that you can beat them. But I think that we do have this ability if we can keep the hope and if we can you know, utilize our majority of people who are free, like for the most part, right?

Like we do have this freedom of being, I guess, in the majority and we're two white guys talking to each other right now. That gives us a responsibility to free other people if we ultimately want to feel freedom ourselves. No, I think that's right. Yeah, cynicism is kind of this self-fulfilling prophecy. The other side, whatever the other side is, and the thing you're talking about, wants you to feel that it's impossible, that it won't make a difference, that it's stacked against you, that it's impossible to wrap your head around, that it's all, you know, because if you quit on it, then you're right.

If you're like, there's nothing you can do about it, it's true that you will not do something about it. Right. Yeah, it's self-evident, right? If you give up, you can't win. So that's it. You know, and I think there's a lot of people who rightfully so have been marginalized, and they've lost hope, but the people who can't afford, we've been privileged so much, the people who

can least afford, I think, if we're going to win these sort of larger battles in society to give up is the white guys, the people who have the most privilege, like, how can we give up? How can we be tired? How is it possible that we have run out of energy to stand up and to have hope, and to provide hope, and to be a force of energy and light and positivity to people who need that, even if it goes against, you know, even if people are right now or are thinking, there's nothing you can do, everything stacked against us.

Yeah, maybe a little bit of that, but at the end of the day, like, and not to make this a conversation about Roe v. Wade, but, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that that is a minority of people who want that to happen. And at the end of the day, to me, what that means is if that you can inspire hope and bring people together, then you do have a chance to make change. Maybe not right now, but I really do believe that. Well, that cynicism is a form of cowardice, right? It's a way of letting yourself off the hook. You don't have to go do a hard thing where success is not guaranteed and may be, in fact,

unlikely. It goes the same point we're talking about making it as a band, as a creative or whatever. If you're like, it's impossible. The industry's rigged. It's all luck. If you tell yourself that, it doesn't make it any, it doesn't change anything. It just makes it clear that you will not be the exception to that rule or that you will not succeed. 100% and I think we exist in a society that very much has forgotten a lot of the difficulty that people before us incurred to get the things that they wanted, including but not limited to hand-to-hand combat.

And I think everything's on the table. If you want to put your chest out and say you're going to make change, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. Obviously, you want to be peaceful and not calling for anything like that. But at the end of the day, you have to be willing to do whatever it takes. That's the same with music. The same with sports. I use sports so often because it's such an easy comparison. But maybe we're down 10 points in the fourth quarter, but the percentages say that we're the team that's likely to win still. You know, it's like you just have to turn it around and it just takes, it takes grit and it's

easier said than done, but it takes grit and it takes action and hopefully we as a band and can inspire people to to wanna take that action and then help raise money and do whatever we need to do. Yeah, and like sometimes I'll hear people are like, well, I don't wanna have kids because of climate change, right? I don't wanna do this because of this. And I'm like, yeah, but you're precise

because you think that way. You're the person who has to do it. Because if you see the field, right? Like if you're like, oh, it's hopeless, it's shitty, it's not going to work. It's not like a mutually agreed upon truce. You're actually just like handing it over to the people who have made you so cynical and disgusted in the first place. Yeah, 100% and I mean, I think in anything, like you said, not to bring it back to music too much,

but it is true. Like, I think some people are willing to be the person that catches the ball and shoots the shot at the end of the game when things get tough. And then some people seem to shy away from that. But in this particular situation, you know, it's actually just a requirement for you to actually focus inward on your own hope and ability to project positive things in a particularly difficult dark situation.

And if you're able to do that, then we can build this collective. And I really think that democracy or these bigger ideas are all about that collective. And right now, if you wanna talk about Roe v. Wade or whatever, there's a collective that has used their power to essentially capture the Supreme Court, right? But that very principle by which they did that is proof positive that you can turn it around.

Sure, sure. Now that makes sense. And to go back to your quote about freeing people, I think that's another thing. It's like, you gotta ask yourself, are the views that you have or the things that you're doing, are you making life better for people or worse? Like are you making life harder or easier?

Like who is being... I just think about this all the time. Like, it seems like there's a good chunk of people who seem to spend a lot of their time trying to make life as hard or restrictive or uncomfortable. Not just for other people in general, but it's the worst part is it's directed at the most vulnerable and precarious people in society as well, right? So it's like this kind of double whammy where you're not just being like a dick, but you're

being a dick to the people who are having the hardest time. Yeah, this morning we were talking about the why, which I think is what you're getting at, and it's hard. It's hard to fathom the why, you know, in like so many of the things that are happening in the world. Obviously today we're talking on the day that, you know, where we wait, get struck down. So that one's like right on the tip of the today we're talking on the day that, you know, Ruby Wade gets struck down. So that one's like right on the tip of the tongue, but there's other things too, where you just look at it and it's like you said,

it's like, who, even from a political standpoint, like who stands to gain, I looked up the statistics on it. It's hard to fathom that this is like a particularly good win for like Republicans, you know, who, if you look at the statistics, they do favor abortion, but only like 60, 40. And then you have the rest of the sort of political climate who is, you know, completely, you

know, angered by this, right? And so I really struggle with the why. I actually don't think it's that political as much as it is about trying to transition into some other type of government completely in which there's, you know, sort of unlimited power in a certain way, which is sort of scary because like you said, why you would want to take people, like you said, who are marginalized already

and make their lives harder, doesn't seem like a political platform that I recognize even from my early life. Like that wasn't always the case and it's a tarred rocker head around. Yeah, like I live in this small town in Texas and it's Pride Month and this sort of gay group was trying to like have like a party at this local golf course.

And this sort of Facebook group, very conservative Facebook group sort of gets, because some of the members didn't like it, chases them out of there, then they move it to this other thing, and they chase them out of there. They don't have it in the middle of nowhere, it's just like born. They couldn't even say where they were doing it because they were worried it would happen to get. It's because the venue's kept going like, well, we don't want to lose business by pissing

off these. So anyways, and it's just like, I just can't imagine waking up kept going like, well, we don't want to lose business by pissing off these. So anyways, and it's just like, I just can't imagine waking up and being like, you know what, these gays are having too much fun together. Like, they shouldn't be allowed to have a party like in a fucking golf course if they want to. I need to prevent them from doing it. It's like, just imagine what it's probably like to be a gay man or woman in a rural

town in Texas. Like, they're already not having a good time. You know what I mean? Like, they're already struggling. And then the impulse to say like, I want to make life harder for these people. That's what I struggle with wrapping my head around. It's, I think, the saddest part of all of it. I'll never get it. I'll never get it. I think it has, you know, I guess they would talk about religion, but, you know, I mean, I think maybe nothing has been more

hijacked than religion. There's like the sort of famous Gandhi, like your Christians aren't like your Christ. Yeah, and it's true. There's no way that this is everything you just said, that Christ ultimately and the teachings originally were about making sure that people who are marginalized have more difficult lives. If that is the church that those people attend, then that's shameful. So I think at the end of the day, like I said, the people who are in the majority who I really believe the majority of human beings at their core don't want to make life harder for other people in their community.

And I think we have a problem where we have a rule by the minority, a powerful minority who has done a good job in usurping power and making people's lives more difficult. That's the challenge, but we can't run from that. And I think if you've ever had the privilege, which I think you have done with your music, I've just done this with some of my books, but anyone who's ever had the privilege of making someone's life better or easier, or fostering connection, or relation, or joy, or fun, it's so much better than whatever weird perverse pleasure or self-righteousness you're getting out of the opposite of that. Do you know

what I mean? And this is why I think at the root of Jesus' teachings was actually this idea of love and kindness and compassion for other people. Because it is the wonderful thing. That's what like heaven on earth is, is when there's brief moments where you feel people coming together, you feel a community fostering. Like, that's what the meaning of life is. Yeah, I mean, we get to do this thing and you travel around and do stuff like this as well,

but you know, we play a show each night and we bring people come from all different, you know, backgrounds and they come and they sing songs together and they get in a room together. And I think it's really important because it's exactly what you're talking about. And, you know,, we try to create as free and environment of gender orientation, race, all of that stuff.

And try to bring people together to have this collective experience around music. And like I said, that's the most beautiful thing we have is each other. And I think we really are, you learn in these tours and stuff like that, how important we are to each other, even if we don't know each other because we have this power to exchange maybe what a song or a book or a thing that you created meant to a stranger.

And you can see that there's this thread that can connect us if we allow it to. And like you said, that's so much more powerful than, and I know it just sounds cheesy, but it really is true. That thing is something that I'll never take for granted when someone tells you, like, you know, I lost a family member and I listen to this song, and it did this for me or whatever. And you just think about that thing.

Like, whatever that is, where it's like two people that don't know each other, but there is this connective tissue, which is music, that brought them together and then improved each other's lives. Because obviously me hearing that, like, it just empowers me to keep creating and that I do have this purpose. And for them, it gives them this purpose of music

in a world like we're talking about right now that is so difficult. I think it just shows you that like, there really is, the ball will roll down hill if we work together kind of thing because we really do need each other. And I think we're in a place where we're so divided that sometimes I'm just hoping that that bubble will burst

You know, and people will realize like no, we're not this isn't who we are like yeah, I don't know No, I think that's beautifully said in a wonderful place to wrap up Matt thanks for coming on and thanks for all the amazing music Hey, thank you so much Ryan. This is really cool for me. Appreciate it You know the Stoics in real life met at what was called the Stoa. The Stoa, Poquile, the Painted Porch, and Ancient Athens. Obviously we can all get together in one place because this community is like hundreds of thousands of people and we couldn't fit in one space.

But we have made a special digital version of the Stoa. We're calling it daily Stoic life. It's an awesome community. You can talk about like today's episode. You could talk about the emails, ask questions. That's one of my favorite parts is interacting with all these people who are using Stowe's system to be better in their actual real lives. You get more daily stowec meditations over the weekend,

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