The Daily Stoic - Nate Boyer On Developing Perseverance And Asking For Help

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

Ryan speaks with Nate Boyer in the second of a two-part interview about why his new movie is aligned with the Stoic ideal of encouraging people to ask for help, the moment from basic training that made him belief in himself, why the greats try to do their best every single time, and moreNate Boyer is a United States Army Green Beret, former football player, actor, director, producer, and television host. Despite never having played a down of organized football in his life, Nate played college football as a walk-on at the University of Texas, and he was later signed by the Seattle Seahawks as an undrafted free agent in 2015. In 2004, Nate became a relief worker shortly before enlisting in the Army and being accepted into the Green Berets. He earned an honorable discharge after six years of service, after which he pursued a career in film and television. Since then, he has appeared in an ESPN documentary about his life, the film Den of Thieves, the show Mayans M.C., the video game Madden NFL 18, and many other notable media properties. Nate currently hosts the Discovery channel reality competition series Survive the Raft. In 2022, Nate wrote, directed, and starred in the acclaimed film MVP. You can follow Nate on Instagram @NateBoyer37, and you can check out his charity Merging Vets and Players at vetsandplayers.org. ✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and we are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on so do sit back and enjoy Briden and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever, you get your podcasts. Emily, do you remember when Wondirection called it a day? I think you'll find there are still many people who can't talk about it. Well luckily, we can. A lot. Because our new season of terribly famous is all about the first one directioner to go it alone. Zayn Malik.

We'll take you on Zayn's journey from Shilad from Bradford to being in the world's biggest boy band and explore why, when he reached the top, he decided to walk away. Follow terribly famous wherever you get your podcasts. Bosch Legacy returns, now streaming. Maddie's been taken. Oh, God. His daughter. No!

He's in the hands of a madman. What are the police have been looking for me? But nothing can stop a father. We want to find her just as much as you do. I doubt that very much. From doing what the law can't. And we have to do this a by way. You have to. law can't. And we have to do this a by way.

You have to. I don't. Bosch Legacy. Watch the new season now streaming exclusively on FreeVee. Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits

that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stood Podcast. I told you in the last episode when I was sitting down with Nate Boyer, like right as we were getting down, he was telling me that he was setting up to run the Leadville Ultra Marathon, which is a crazy 100 mile race. And they finished it in just under 24 hours. And he was telling me, I was gonna read this out,

if that was interesting. He was saying, it was, he says, it was just so bizarre to think and feel that at miles 23 through 38, I was having serious doubts about hitting that sub 25 hour goal or even being able to finish, but he says running back through that same stretch as the sunset, that'd be Miles 62 through 77. There were never those doubts.

And he said, I felt stronger, maybe a bit faster. He said, the human body and the mind are capable of so much. And what I said is, you know, when you're doing hard stuff, it's the extrapolation that kills you. But once we see that the end is in sight, we can be a bit more present. And he said, the worst parts were the expansive flat portions without the ups and downs. And there might be a life lesson in there.

I'm sure there is. I'm a big fan of today's guest. You heard all about him in the last episode. And this is part two. Nate Boyer's got an incredible story. Green Beret, walk-on player at UT, long snapper at like 29 against all odds, plays for a chunk of his season at Seattle. And then has this sort of rendezvous with history in a fascinating way where when Colin Kaepernick makes a decision to sit out the national anthem, it's Nate and an article that he writes that steers Kaepernick into the direction of kneeling instead. And I just thought Nate handled it in a class that he smart, fascinating,

and really wise way we talk about that in the interview among many many other things and Back to the leadville marathon he and I talked about a previous guest Courtney Dewalter at the beginning of think of last week's episode about the idea of exploring the pain cave and He said I said what did you find out while they're in the pain cave and he said that fucker goes deep so said, what did you find out while they're in the pain cave and he said, that fucker goes deep. So we go deep in the second part of this interview with Nate Boyer, check out his movie MVP. You can stream that. I just pulled it up. I think on Amazon Prime and I got it through Showtime Plus or something like that. It was a great movie. I really enjoyed it told actually it's some other athletes. I know all about it. And then you can follow

him on Instagram at Nate8boiR37, you can follow at merging vets and players. That's his charity MVP. You can check out their website at vetsandplayers.org. But here's part two of my interview with a person I really come to admire and respect. And I think through the course of this interview, you will feel the same way.

That's where we're at right now. Where it's just, I feel like so many people are so sure of what they know as the truth and the, you know, however they receive their information. I shouldn't say knowledge. You know, even information might be generous. Yeah, that's true. That's true. This is just fucking shit that they're consuming off the internet. Totally.

And it's wild. I mean, I see it in very people who really close to me in different aspects of my life. And I have a lot of different groups of people I associate with. And it's just interesting to hear those different opinions. And I'm like, I understand why you feel that way. But if you thought of this, and I don't know, I'm like the ultimate devil's advocate. I love to play that game, but I love to play that game

because I don't really know what is and what isn't. And sometimes, I'm, you know, sometimes often, something I'm so sure of and feel so strongly about is absolutely challenged. And it changes me, you know? And then sometimes it swings back the other way. And it's just that it's the constant game. Like I am, I am, yeah, I don't know what I actually believe. I really don't.

I know what I think and I feel, but. My wife was telling me she's reading this book about medicine and like the statistics were showing that like, if you have something that needs to be diagnosed, you actually want a younger doctor because that doctor's, so there's basically if you want, if you have something that needs to be diagnosed, you want a younger doctor because that doctor is, so there's basically if you want, if you have something that needs to be diagnosed, you want a younger doctor.

If you have a procedure that needs to be done, you want an older doctor. And that like, so basically an older dog, an experienced surgeon has been in this situation countless times. They're prepared for all the contingencies. They have thousands of hours. They're masters at this thing. If you have that master in the room diagnosing you, they have this a lot of preconceived notions,

they've been burned a lot of times. They're more likely to tell you what they think as opposed to elicit from you all the information and the potential disconformation, right right and I think that's an interesting way to think about knowledge that like there's a difference between but you have to be careful that your mastery and your experience doesn't also make you rigid and arrogant and like Napoleon talks about not wanting to form a picture. Like if you have a sense, if you believe you know how it's going to go, you're closed off to information that might be leading you to believe it could go a very different way.

Right. And you've got to be sort of open and receptive to all the things that can happen. The more your identity is tied up in certain beliefs, for instance, the less likely you are to change your mind, because now you have to go. But I, as a Republican, do not like those kinds of people, or me as a Democrat believes that this is what's right. So now the world's giving me this information about, hey, this policy, we came up with, it's not working. But what am I going to do, believe something that the people I don't like believe? Right, yeah, no, that's very interesting. Speaking of belief, I've had this conversation

with several people and you get different answers every time. And like, do you think you choose what you believe or no? What do you mean? So like, a lot of people, whether it's religion, right, God, a lot of people say, well, no, I choose to believe that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior or whatever this thing is. And where my mind immediately goes is, well, if you're choosing to believe it, you don't actually believe it. You're just saying that you believe it.

Like you are, if you actually believed it, it wouldn't be a choice to me. You know what I mean? It's like, well, I just, I genuinely believe this thing. So I'm not making a choice of whether I do or not. But people will argue that and be like, well, I don't believe is a choice. You know, believe in something. I don't know.

One of the most basic level, like, you believe what you believe and you think a lot of what you think because of where you're from, who your parents were when you were born. And I don't, it's not like, it's kind of mind blowing, but it's not exactly like a breakthrough insight to go. But if you were born in India a hundred years ago, or if you were born in the south in 1840, you'd have different beliefs, right? Or if you were born to this kind of family or that, like, so much of what we have is a

product of, you know, our circumstances, the times we're in. And yet, the idea that we don't have any agency would be a pretty dark, depressing way. Like what, if we're 100% of product of our environment that we can't change our mind, that we can't form our beliefs, change our assumptions, whatever, it's like, well, then what are we all doing here? Like, this is all, this is all,

the stoic sort of view on this stuff was that they had this image of like, this were like a dog tied to a cart. So, like, this thing this thing is pulling us and we're not strong enough to stop it necessarily, but we can decide kind of like, we have some leeway with some slack in that rope, you know, we have some control over it. And so I kind of think about it that way. First of all, I think it's humbling and eye opening to just be like, yeah, like, I'm much more a product of my environment than I would perhaps like to believe. And then ironically in realizing that, it gives you some power over your environment to

go like, wait, why do I think Jesus is our Lord and Savior? That's because when I was two years old, my parents told me that and forced me every day or every week to go to a thing where every, all the adults around me, the people I admired the most, reiterated to me, this is true over and over again. Well, now that I'm an adult, I have the ability to go, is that true? You know, do I believe that? Like, how much of this is real? And so I think it's both, we do control our beliefs and we don't control our beliefs and we do.

That's a terrible answer. That's great. That's life. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we always choose our actions or whether we're going to learn about something. You know, I mean, you choose to research something or to question something like you can, well, maybe you don't choose a question, but you can, you choose to like seek that out. You know, if you're questioning thing, you could ignore it. Like, I'm questioning the thing, no, no, no, but it's not, you know, there are a lot of people do that a lot of times.

Yeah. And, uh, no, I think there's value in that. I think, when I think of it from a religious standpoint, you know, faith, the word faith, to me, it insinuates doubt. I mean, there is doubt. Sure. You have to have it or you don't have faith, you know? So, there's a lot of people in various religions

that are like, they will say, without a doubt, I know this is the way. And this is correct. And I'm not saying that's bad or wrong, but that's not faith. You know what I mean? That's not faith, because faith is like without that doubt that it might not be true,

then there is no faith to actually pursue that belief, I guess, in a sense. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, it's a... Like I just, I mean, that a sense. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, it's a... Like, I just, I mean, that's just how it feels to me. Like, if it's like, like, when you say to yourself, I just gotta have faith.

I just gotta have faith. I gotta think that it's possible. It's kind of what you're saying. Yeah. And so if you think that it's possible, then you don't know, you just think, you know, or you hope, or whatever. So that faith thing, and that's a big, at least in Christianity, that's a big component

is faith. Not through, it says, salvation is through faith, not by works. Not by the things that we do, but that belief and that hope and whatever. But with that, to me, it's like a great amount of doubt that you'll never get rid of, and you'll always wonder, of and you always wonder and You want to just continue to research that thing and I think that goes for a lot of things in life not just religion But those are the things that are I've always thought that to be totally nonsense like let's say God does exist, right? He like creates this universe

Let's talk about the Christian guy because that's the one I'm most remote and he's like the most important thing Isn't what you do is not how you treat the other people that I've made It's just the most important thing is that you believe in me and by the way I'm gonna make it really hard to know whether I exist or not so in fact I'm gonna so all sorts of doubt about whether I exist or not and Yeah, just the main thing is you believe in me. No, no, I struggle. If the Bible is the Bible, that's certainly not, Jesus talked a lot about works, you know, and then did a lot of works, right? So that's always struggling with a silly proposition.

I agree, and I think that I think the, I mean, it all comes down to interpretation, right? And and I think there's a lot of things in a lot of religious works that, you know, one mind conflicts with another, you know, and maybe in the Bible, one book may conflict with another, and maybe within this book, one line may conflict with another. And it all comes down to how, you know, we are interpreting this things, but, you know, I'm with you on that. Like, it's not, it's a matter of like, are you doing these works for your own salvation, or are you doing these things

because they're the right thing to do, and you care about your fellow brother and all that. And I think those, in probably most religious teachings, like that's the baseline of like, what you're supposed to do. It's supposed to be about the community, about others, and it's not. You know, but if like the goal and the focus is like, my own salvation, I can go do all this of like what you're supposed to do. It's supposed to be about the community, about others and it's not. But if the goal and the focus is like my own salvation,

I can go do all this terrible shit. But if I ask for forgiveness and I say, either whether it's how it loud in my mind, that Jesus is my Lord and Savior or whatever this is, and of course we're just using the Christian example, then I'm okay. I don't agree with that either. I think that, and obviously I don't know whether there is a God or not or what is intent,

but or her intent or whatever. But that's what I've always struggled with in those communities is the idea that, well, don't you want to go to heaven? And I'm like, I do if the people that I look up to and maybe have aspired to be and I'm inspired by are also there, but if they're not, because they didn't say this thing, I don't know if I want to hang out with those people

because that's not my tribe. Like, I don't feel the connection to that group. Or I don't want to go to heaven, I don't want to go to a heaven where, for most of human history, the places that had not to go to heaven, I don't want to go to a heaven where for most of human history, the places that had not been exposed to Christianity, all those people are burning and hell for eternity because they happen to be in Africa instead of the 14th century France. So it's a preposterous.

And there are certain people that will say that, well, on judgment day, they'll get another shot. And I'm like, how do you know that? Like, do you know that? I don't know. But even so, yeah, there'll also be other ones to be like, well, that's why we have missionaries. And that's why people go and preach the gospel and all that. So they all have had the opportunity, I'm like,

so you're telling me the person that knocks on your door in a suit and tie, you gave them the time of day and you actually listened to them because that's a different idea and a different religion or whatever. But no, you had your thing and you're like, you know, no thing. I do feel like I grew up, my parents went to church

or grew up Catholic and then I sort of in college, I read Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all the Christopher Hitchens, all these sort of atheist guys. And then I was like, yes, God definitely does not exist. Right. So I just went from one to the other. And then as I've gotten older, I'm agnostic in the sense

that I'm actually like, I don't fucking know. I just know, I don't buy a lot of what these people are selling because it's mostly about, you know, your mega church or your enormous mansion. A lot of discrimination. Yeah. I know anything which I don't love. No, when you read the Bible, it's very hard to hear the example and the life of Jesus and not be like, I am on board with that. Absolutely. And then it's also very hard to see literally any of that in any denomination of Christianity.

Like within the people, you mean? Yeah, I mean, even within the frameworks or the set of beliefs that the church had pulled. Like, it's also interesting for me, you know, writing about ancient philosophy. I think a lot of people who are religious have never really been exposed that much to history or to philosophy. So they feel like one feels like very ancient and the like like Jesus and Sonica were born the same year.

So and lived both in the Roman Empire, both from provinces of the Roman Empire, both enormously successful philosophers in their own lifetime, both ultimately killed by the Roman state, you know, gruesomely so. And then when I, as much as I am interested in this sounds like it's coming from a real fucking person. You know, like a real flesh and blood human who's talking about the world that he is living in as a flesh and blood human. Is somebody transcribing Seneca's words or Seneca's words? S-A is. I mean, we have a book of Seneca's letters

that he wrote to his friend. That's the same thing that's maybe the difference. A lot of this, you course, it's an interpreted version of what was said. Somebody else wrote it down. And then, I don't know. But I mean, I'm, Santa C is never like I am the son of God.

You know, like, there's, there's, he's not possess, he's not professing to have any magical powers or, he's not threatening heaven or hell or, you know, he's not speaking on anyone's authority but his own. And like, again, like, Sennaka writes these letters, Sennaka's letters, he's writing to his friend Lucilius, who has the same job as Pontius Pilate. Right? Like, it's just, it's fucking real. Like, when we read the Stokes, it's real people who have real jobs. Kato is a senator. We have senators now.

You know what I mean? Like when I'm reading the Stokes, I'm like, these are people who, they're not mystics. There's nothing magical about it. No faith is required. It is, here's some try and true strategies to make you a better person, to make you less scared, you know, less angry, you know, more patient, more decent. And there's a lot of that in Jesus, but there's also, you know, let me tell you this parable about, you know, this thing. Did it actually happen or not? Nobody knows, you know, all that. Yeah, that's super interesting. That's super

interesting. Yeah, I think, you know, to that. Yeah, that's super interesting. That's super interesting. Yeah, I think, you know, to go back on the framework and what you were talking about, sort of the idea, I think Gandhi, I'm paraphrasing for sure, but he was like, basically, I'm on board with Christianity. I just don't love your Christians, you know what I mean? Because it was the, not just the imperfection of man, the frailty of man, or whatever. We all know that we are, you know that we are full of sin or mistake or whatever you want to call it.

We screw up every day. But it's like the, it's owning that and having that openness and just the understanding or the, the funny thing about Gandhi is, Gandhi is way more Christian than the occupying British. You know what I mean? Right. Gandhi isn't opening up with more Christy guns on crowds of people.

You know, it's like Gandhi read the story of Christ and then decided to actually live in a Christ-like way. And really the brilliance of Gandhi and then also Martin Luther King is like, it's like, oh, you really believe this. And then reflecting back to the occupying powers, whether it's the British or it's, you know, sort of the American South, reflecting back like, you don't believe this. You profess to believe it, but look at what you did. You just opened up with firehoses on children.

Like, tell me where that's in the Bible, right? Tell me where that's in the Constitution, right? And the sort of purity of like, they actually took it seriously and literally is what changed the world. Totally, yeah. I want to go back to the movie. I was curious, like, how close to the carrot, oh, with Z's journey

Was yours like did you come back angry and struggling to read just or was that That's a common story, but it's not your story. Yeah, so in the in the end credits There's two two veterans AJ and Denver who speak right so the backstory of Zephyr is based on their back stories. So AJ, you know, he was with his mother, homeless, much of his youth, you know, and really, really struggled with, you know, when she got remarried to not a nice person and he just couldn't wait to leave.

He never come back. His whole thing was I'm never coming home. And with Denver, Denver grew up in Venture County and you know, just kind of a tough childhood once again and ran to the Marine Corps and then went off and was on into seven in that battalion. They lost 29 guys on back-to-back deployments. I think now the number is 56 or so to suicide since they came back in 2009. So both of these guys, Denver was living in that shelter. That's a real place. We shot on location in this veteran's homeless shelter and AJ and Denver had started to become buddies. They got connected through, I can't remember what. It may have been through the beginning of MVP,

but I think it was through something else. But anyway, those two guys really built MVP in the sense of like brought in those first bets. I had the opportunity to go down there to that shelter. So I was almost a bit in Will's shoes when I first met Denver. Sure. I just got done with playing football

and a guy I know who was formerly homeless who started this shelter. He was like, you got to come down and hang out with these guys, talk to him and I went down there and I met Denver. I met some other people and Denver was not excited that somebody was down there to like cheer him up. You know what I mean? And so and I totally get that. And but we ended up connecting afterwards and talking and you know getting to know him and his story. And then they really built MDP. But to your point, a lot of what was written,

first of all, pretty much everything that was written, has either been said in an MVP session on the map there or something I have felt or said or heard from somebody, from another veteran. So there was a lot of me in that character, and a lot of things I felt, but I didn't really transition or feel like I'd lost that uniform or identity until football was over. Because I wasn't right in the football.

And even when I was playing football at Texas, I was still in the National Guard. So in the summers, I was going to Afghanistan. So I was a very high octane operation tempo of just go, go, go, go, go, go, take your finals early, go to Afghanistan, come back a day before training camp, go to practice, play football, go to school, do it all again next year.

And I loved it, and I volunteered to do all those things. I made that choice. But then, and I went to Seattle for about four or five months. I got cut, and all of a sudden it was like, you know, just done. And so that was my transition moment really was at 34. And that's not long after we started MVP with Jake laser, but yeah, it was really a lot of them in those characters, a lot of AJ and Denver in that Zephyr character. But some of the self-harm stuff, a lot of Vets, I think a lot of people experience, but in a physical manner and also in a mental manner,

we beat ourselves up like big time. We really struggle with being grateful for what we did or grateful is not the right word. Appreciating what we were willing to sacrifice and giving ourself a pat on the back. It's easy as that sound, but it's's ingrained in us that it is the team. And it is. But I understand that you're a part of that team as an individual. You did some pretty incredible stuff, and you sacrifice so much.

You're still that person now. You can go do anything else. You can change the world, continue to change the world. And you can continue to fight for those, you can't fight for themselves, or whatever you want to do. But yeah, change the world, continue to change the world. And you can continue to fight for those, you can't fight for themselves or whatever you want to do. But yeah, with the film, every single vet portrayed on screen

is played by an actual vet. So even Dan Loria, who's the dad on the wonder years back in the day, I'm actually recognized him in there. He's a Vietnam vet. And really? So all those vets were played by vets. And a lot of the athletes from Randy Couture, Tony Gonzalez, Strahan and Howie Long,

have a cameo. Jared Bond, she plays Ray, the other NFL player. He played for the Giants for four years and injury ended his career. All those, like so many of the characters. I mean, Mo McCray who played Will Phillips, who was spectacular, he's one of the only, at least leading males in it. He is probably the only leading, or bigger role males in it. He is probably the only leading,

or bigger role male in it. That's not a veteran athlete. Really? Yeah, and Tom Arnold, he's got that nice little cameo. Yeah. But even the women, like, Christina Ocho and Dina Shihabi, like they are very ingrained in the veteran world,

and that's why they wanted to be a part of this, because I mean, all these people worked for next and nothing You know, I mean all of them like no one got a big paycheck there because we didn't have it And then we made it for nothing. So, you know, it was just a lot of I don't even want to say favors They were just passionate about the story and and what merging beds and players is and they just wanted to be a part of it part of it. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Suryuti. And we are the hosts of A Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast.

Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nephiles Royal Massacre and the Nithory Child Sacrifices. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Find, download, and binge-red-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts. We can't see tomorrow, but we can hear it. And it sounds like a renewable natural gas bus replacing conventional fleets. We're bridging to a sustainable energy future, working today to ensure tomorrow is on.

And bridge, life takes energy. Yeah, no, I thought it was great. Jay Glager, I think, has the best line in the whole movie. Which line? He says, I know what's behind my rib cage in between my ears. That's what makes me great. Yeah.

That to me, that's, that's one, the definition of competence. And then to the, the stokes would say, um, the greatest empire is to rule over oneself, right? And so the ability to be like, I know who I am. I know what I'm capable of. I got this, which is why I'm confident that I got that. To me, that's like, that's the work. That's what you're trying to do. Yeah, and that's something that Jay and Randy say all the time. Yeah, it's something they

say, they'll talk about it at an MVP huddle, but they'll talk about it on the street to a stranger too, or to a fighter that's young and they're trying to get in that mental game because so much of it, so much of these fights are one before they're even, sure, they've even begun, you know what I mean, it's really true. But that's what Randy did that was different. You know, Randy's one of these guys that in the ring, they're in the octagon. Yeah. He just, you know, rounds over and he's dog tired and he's like, I got beat last round. So I'm not gonna sit on my bench and get water and all this.

I'm gonna stand there and bounce around. And my hands aren't going on my hips. And I'm not gonna look at the guy and make it a thing. I'm just gonna act like this is just what I do. This is who I am, which it is. It becomes who you are, your habits to find you. Sure. But he's doing that.

And at the corner of his eyes, noticing this other fighter sitting across, like, how is this dude have that much, like, how is he not tired? And Randy's exhausted. He should die. But he's like, this is the mental game right here. And if I do this, I'm winning this,

I'm winning between the rounds. You know what I mean? So then the next round, they come out and the guys coming up with this, like, man, like, I thought I had it in my last year. I thought I beat him to submission, but he's over there rare and to go. I'm in trouble. You know, and he got once that's happened, it's over. So that's, that's, you know, between the rib cage and between the ears.

When I imagine as you do this, this ultra marathon, you're, you're going to run into a wall at some point and you're going to have to, probably earlier than I want. And you're going to have to go like, you look, I'm the person that was there in Afghanistan and RAC. I'm this person that was, you know, everyone said it was impossible to make a college football team. I'm a person said, I'm the person that said, I had no chance to be in the NFL.

Like, you've done all these, you know what you're capable of. And that's what you draw on in those moments where, you know, the thing looks impossible or overwhelming or very unlikely. Right, yeah, that's what you draw on in those moments where, you know, the thing looks impossible or overwhelming or very unlikely. Right. Yeah. That's what I have to. I have to remember that. And it's sometimes hard to in the moment. It's nice to have friends remind you. Yeah. I mean, that that that that is definitely helpful. And that's another sort of candidate of MVP is, you know, we got your back. And it's it's a community doing this. It's not just MVP. That's life. You need those people to, you know, to, it's not just pumping you full of bullshit either. It's just reminding you who you are, you know, and what you've done because we soon forget. And once we deconstruct that

difficult challenging thing and we realize it's simple but not easy and you know, there is that process. Then maybe we also forget from an outside perspective, how crazy this other thing is that we're looking at and how impossible it seems to run 100 miles or whatever, but until you can kind of get under the hood and start to do that and be there in that moment, be able to draw parallels with these other things. That's how we get through it. And I think a lot of people wonder, well, but I've never done anything big or great. And it's just like, you had to start small, you had these little stupid things that seem, you know, they seem pointless maybe, but going

back to basic training, the moment for me in basic training that gave me this ultra-belief in myself from a physical standpoint. Believe it, what my body could endure was, we were probably about halfway through and we'd been granted the opportunity on Sundays, you can go to church, you can go to the PX if you need to get something, and you can go get a little extra work out in if you want. You've had like a few hours, a little window of some free time. Some people, you know, just where to wear the locker and took a nap,

and totally respect that, you know. But I would, like, I put my body armor on and I would go down to the track and one day I did a mile of lunges. And it was like, the exactly, that's how I felt. That's what I thought, but I was like, I just wanna see if it's possible. Like I'll see how far I can go.

So I start going, I'm a quarter of the way into the first quarter mile. And the legs are shaking and I'm already like, this is really hard, but I just kept doing it. You know, I kept doing it pretty soon, I'm halfway through that quarter. And then I've got a quarter done. And then I'm a half mile done.

I'm halfway done. I'm like, this is home stretch. And I still feel all those things and it's super hard. Maybe that was my cave moment. Like I'm seeing how deep did the cave moment. I'm like, I'm seeing how deep did the cave go. But I just kept going and I kept going and I got, and I finished it and I got done. And I'm like limping back to the barracks just like jello and I'm like, man, this is dumb. I got 10 miles in the morning, but I did it. And I just was like, if I can

do this, man, I can, I don't know what I can't do. And that's something that Jay said to me too, when I got to spend some time with him before the Seahawks and got to train at his gym. That's kind of his whole mindset through this unbreakable performance center is just, I'm not sure, I know what you can do. I've seen that, but I'm not sure what you can't do. You know what I mean?

And I can't wait to see what that looks like. And that was something when he told me that, I was just like, okay, I mean, that's just sort of clicked for me and it made me think of that moment. And a lot of other things where it was like, yeah, I didn't know what I couldn't do either, you know, until I just-

We only learned your max weight by continually adding weight. And so you can't lift it anymore. Do you know what I mean? And so you have to be willing to sort of push that further and further and further and then, you know, sometimes you go, okay, that's too much. I took on too much. I don't, or I'm unhappy doing that much. That's not the direction I want to go in. But you you do have to to sort of continually push and question and go, can I go a little bit further? Can I go a little bit faster? Can I do a little bit better?

And I think that's the skill that makes people great. Obviously, people think Tom Brady's obsessed with winning. I think Tom Brady is actually obsessed with performance, like with the leasing the ball a little bit faster, making the routes better. You know, he's obsessed with the component pieces. And if you get really obsessed with that, it tends to culminate in, you know, Bill Walsh's thing about how,

you know, the score takes care of itself. Like, if you're obsessed with getting better at the pieces, you tend to get better results out of the other side. It's not guaranteed, but if you're obsessed with that, then... And even when the result doesn't go your way, if you did all you could,

and you are okay with it, typically, you can walk away, and it sucks. It hurts for a bit, but you're like, but I did everything I could, and on this day, that opponent was just a little bit better than me, and that's okay, but I did everything that I could. And I, you know what I mean? And on this day, that opponent was just a little bit better than me. And that's okay. But I, you know, I, I did everything that I could. The talk I just gave at the Naval Academy, I ended up with this story about Jimmy Carter. So Jimmy Carter goes to the Naval Academy in 46, my graduates in 46. And so he wants to be on nuclear submarines. So he ends up, he, at that time, all the candidates are interviewed by Admiral Hyman Rickover,

who's sort of the head of this program, he does it for years and years and years. And so it's this interview process, it's the best of the best, you know, it's the most competitive slot. And so it's sort of, it's the long interview they talk about books and they talk about physics and they talk about history.

And then finally Rickover goes, you know, how did you do your class at the Naval Academy? You know, Rick over is like, oh, you know, sorry, Carter's like, you know, great. You know, it was like 32 out of, you know, 400, whatever. He's thinking about rank and I sort of talked about his grades and how ready he did. And Rick over just goes, but did you always do your best? And he's, of course, you know, your instinct is, yeah, of course, right? And then he's like, thinks about it.

And he's like, well, you know, he's thinking about all the times he didn't do his best, right? Like all, you know, classes that he phoned in or you know, he could've gone and done extra PT doesn't and he goes, you know what, no, I didn't always do my best. And then Rick over goes, why not? And then he just gets up and leaves. And that question sort of haunts Jimmy Carter

for the rest of his life. Like his campaign biography when he runs for his first office is called Why Not The Best. Like why didn't you do your best? And so yet, I think people who are really great, and people don't always think of him as a great president. He actually was a great president, and was a much better ex-president.

Without question, the best person ever to have been president. I mean, up until a couple of years ago, he's still building houses for Habitat for Humanity. He's cured all these diseases, he's brokered all these, peace treaties and stuff, a great human being. But really great people are not actually thinking about, here's my list of accomplishments. They're like, I always did the best I could do in the situation that I was in. I didn't quit three laps in,

like I went until I fucking fell over. You know, like that. To me, it's like, did you do your best? Yes or no? Yeah, and I think, I think with that, at least for me, I don't know if there's ever truly a hundred percent. Because throughout that, if it's something hard, you're going to have the fall step here and there. And like the, you know and the debate in your head about quitting

and that whatever. There might be a bit of wasted time, but not productive time in that moment. But if you just keep, I think your best is dealing with that and seeing through that. So it's not like you're 100% off performance at all times or whatever. It's just not quitting in a sense. But yeah, I mean, that, that's absolutely, I think that's in common with pretty much anybody that does anything at a high level, is just that, you know, that mindset. Why does that question, too, because it's like, you're like, oh, we won, or we lost. It's like, did you do your best?

And it's like, no, and it's why. You know, like, what reason did you have for not doing your best? Not like, why didn't, the question is, why weren't you perfect? Right, right, right. Why didn't you succeed? The question is, why, you, why add some juncture where you could have given 100% and you gave 76%. What was the reason? You know what I mean?

When I look at the book, I don't go, is this the greatest book ever? I go, is it the best book I was capable of doing? And if the answer's like, no, I could have done better if I did more time. Well, it's like, why did I ask for more time? Like, why did I accept the premise that it had to come out right now? You know?

Why didn't I do my best? It's interesting. Now I'm questioning everything I've ever done. Thanks, Brian. Of course. For a year. Well, I mean, that's the power of that, I mean, it transforms this guy's life.

I mean, he was obviously talented and driven and skilled before, but this question of like, you have a white in you do it. Like, I don't get, he's like, I don't give a shit what your rank was in the class, right? Because what if you were 30th in your class

but you could have been first, right? Like, that's not a person you want to work with. And then what if you were 300th in your class, but you were only capable of being 300th in your class. Like, that's a person who actualized their potential literally to the highest it could be. And chances are, when you ask them to do something, they're going to do the best they are capable of doing.

Now, in some cases, like you said, sometimes this long snapper is better than that long snapper. But I imagine when they were like, when you tried out for UT, and they, like you said, sometimes this long snapper is better than that long snapper. But I imagine when they were like, when you try it out for UT and they're like, okay, he's not, he can't be a safety, he does not have what it, but we need a long snapper. And I bet this guy who does his bet, I bet we could teach him to be a long snapper. And he'll give us the best snapping he's capable of giving us, which may be better than this other person who's very naturally talented, but that doesn't always show up.

Right, yeah, that's true. And remembering, because I'm so forward thinking, and I'm always like, I don't, a lot of people obsess over the past, I obsess over the future, I guess I'm always in this place. But remembering, I remember that after I got cut, it took me a little while to appreciate it,

but then when I would real live the game, I got to play and then the time I got to spend in training camp in Seattle and getting to play in a college all-star game and getting to play at Texas and all those things going back, back, back, back, back to like, you never set foot on a field here at 29. You never even tried a long snap till you were 30 and you got all the way to this place, man. And yeah, you got caught.

You failed. And you lost. But you went so far through whatever the ceiling was. Right. You know what I mean, you lost. But you went so far through whatever the ceiling was. Right, right. For what was possible when, you know, I know Ryan Shay's zero a little bit. And it's like, yeah, he didn't get to play again the way that he hoped, but he also danced at his wedding.

You know what I mean? Which from where he was on that moment when he was on the field paralyzed and like, you know, close to death. That's pretty fun. Like from there to here, that's pretty far, right? And so you have to think about that. Did you exceed the, did you break through the ceiling that seemed possible at that time? Did you do, did you outplay your natural abilities? Sure for the stars, you land on the moon. Yeah, exactly. So to me, one of the other themes of the movie is obviously also how hard it can be for men to ask for help.

It seems like both characters are clearly struggling. And there is this sense that stoicism is like, I got this, right? And how saying I got this can get in the way when you actually obviously don't have it and you need help. Yeah, now that's, I mean, that's, that's very true. I mean, just when the word stoke, when someone says they have a stoke expression on their face, it's to me, it's like a very masculine, very like, I don't know what the word is, stoke is the word. But you just, yeah, you look like you've got,

you're going to be able to endure whatever there is and you can handle this alone and you've got the means and the framework and the mentality. But yeah, I think that's, it's interesting. The whole mental health conversation for me is getting abused at times a bit. And sort of, it's like when people say, oh, they throw the word love around too much, you know?

It's like maybe that's getting thrown around too much in some ways where it's like, love around too much, you know. It's like maybe that's getting thrown around too much in some ways where it's like it's almost it's almost it's almost unfair to the you know that how important that should be treated, you know, and when you talk about that and like because we're supposed to feel a wide range of emotions.

We're supposed to feel sad. We're supposed to be angry. We're supposed to be at times depressed. That's just what the human experience is. And we're also supposed to feel joy and gratitude and whatever happiness is. You know, I mean, all those things too. But I think that this idea that if you're not feeling good now too and you're not feeling okay that like something's wrong and you need to like fix this and it's like we got to treat this

and you got to like tell everybody you're sad and I'm like ah okay take it easy. Yeah. But at the same time you know the just stuffing it down and pretending you don't feel it doesn't do anything for anyone either. Well, the Spartans had mandatory grieving period. I don't know what they called it, but where they'd come back from a battle and they had to purge in a sense. Like they were supposed to feel these emotions

and I don't know how much they talked about it or what that all exactly looked like, but just having that awareness, you know, thousands of years ago, knowing that like, if I had just hold all this inside, what I saw, what I felt, the loss of my brother, if I don't talk about this and just, you know, suck it up and drive on, like we say, then it's going to eat me alive. And I'm going to be in a way worse place. And it's not going to make me, it's not going to help me reach that optimal level of being, you know,

or of fighting me, even the next time, because I'm just going to be so worn out from the inside, I have to like get rid of this. And the best way that I know how is to talk about it, to admit it, to embrace it, to understand that it's totally normal, like that's why we hate the P and PTSD, or excuse me, the D and PTSD, you know, post-traumatic stress

disorder. Like, it is not a disorder to feel post-traumatic stress if you've experienced something very traumatic and stressful. The disorder thing would be to, yeah, see people getting, let's say in the Spartans, cut up in front of you at close range, someone with a spear through their eye socket and not find that stressful or... That's a disorder.

Yeah. If you're not feeling stress in combat or after trauma or you lose someone close to you, you might be a sociopath. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, no, to not, and I understand the, you know, the impetus behind that, like, disorder to a sense of like you're not able to operate. You deserve treatment. You deserve special consideration. That's what they mean. But there is some some implication that it's not the natural response. Totally, because I'm diagnosed with it, you know, through the VA and all that, and I, and I understand why, because I, you know, like, I have, you know, through the VA and all that. And I understand why, because I, you know,

I have, you know, whether it's recurring dreams or thoughts or feelings and moments where I'm kind of caught off guard with an emotion or with something that reminds me a smell, a sense, a sound that can, it doesn't set me off in a sense. And that was something that was important to me with the movie and portraying that. It's not always this, we wake up in a cold sweat

from this dream and, you know, Hollywood stars. I go back fires. Yeah, exactly. Hollywood has their way of showing us what Pope PTSD looks like and it's very different for everybody. And I'm not just talking about veterans either. You know, it's a human condition. But yeah, so I'm diagnosed with that

and I'm fine with that. I mean, I don't know if I would call it a disorder because I think because of my post-traumatic stress, I have become a very capable and very... I don't think I would have the constitution that I have, but also the desire and willingness to just go for it in life, if I didn't have that, like if I didn't, if I hadn't experienced those things, and if I didn't feel that's dramatic growth, totally. And that's what I feel, that's what I feel that it is promoting for me, because I survived

that, you know, it hardened me, It's like being forged in a fire. It's the same thing. And I think that it, you know, when you get through something and that can be doing a mile of lunges, like there's trauma in that. It's different, of course. But I got through that and I was fine, you know, and it was okay, and I was not only fine,

like I was like, man, I just did that and I'm okay. And I can keep going. It's like if you have experienced a great loss in your life I was not only fine, like I was like, man, I just did that, and I'm okay. And I can keep going. It's like if you have experienced a great loss in your life, or something horrible has happened to you, and I don't even want to, you know, we can all imagine what the most horrible things are, and it happens to, you know, to tilt to children, some of the most severe post-traumatic stress from children, it's not from veterans. And then to see what people are still capable of and what they accomplish and so many people

that have accomplished some incredible things when you dig back into their history and learn about where they came from and what happened to them. Like they had trauma. They experienced some heavy trauma and they probably felt stressed from that, you know, and maybe it was a disorder, I don't know. But either way, it opened up, they're able to access something that other people don't know, but either way, it opened up,

they're able to access something that other people don't have. There's so much value in it. Ghosts aren't real. At least is a journalist, that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happened in my childhood bedroom, but ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago, when I discovered that every subsequent occupant

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Yeah, there's this James Baldwin thing where he says, you know, you think your pain is so unique and special and like unprecedented in the history of the world. Right. And it says, and then you read and realizing that like not just people throughout history have been through stuff. And you can like sort of take heart in their example and be inspired by it. But also like there's so many people around you that are going through the exact same thing as you. And by not talking about it, not only are you not benefiting from their comfort and experience, but by not talking about it, you're depriving them of the knowledge that you are also going through it. Do you know what I mean? So this sort of stuffing stuff down that we do, whether you're sad about the loss of your father or the addiction that you had,

or whatever the trauma or, you know, thing you're struggling with, by stuffing it down pretending it doesn't exist, you know, feeling shameful about it, you're, I think it's important to realize like you're harming yourself, but then also you're harming other people. Like more people talked about the struggle,

you wouldn't feel so alone, and then also you can contribute to making people feel less alone by talking about the struggle. Right, yeah, and just normalizing it, because it is normal, and it's totally completely, and like I said, there's so much value in it. And I don't think, if you go out seeking trauma, it's not gonna benefit you in the same way, because it has to be, to me,

it has to be something that was unexpected, something that happened to me that you weren't prepared for, happened to you that you weren't prepared for, right? Because I understand that there, I've been asked that before too, like it goes back to this grit thing that Pete talks about, you know, like can you earn grit?

I think that was the phrasing. And that's a tough one, you know, like can you. Can you seek out obstacles to be better? Yeah, and you can speak to go to obstacles for sure. But as far as trauma, you know, maybe in, and- Life takes care of that. Yeah, life takes care of that. If you put, if you see out obstacles, they're going to happen. It's going to, it's going to, it's going to come.

If it hasn't already, but, you know, that, yeah, that's something that, that is, there is so much, there is so much value in that. And that, that, for me, it was even, it's even being, you know, voli, I talked about it very early on when we were talking today, but, you know, open about insecurities and still feeling like that 13 year old kid or whatever age, that just didn't, didn't like himself at all, you know, and didn't like the way the, you know, he looked and didn't like the way that he

thought, you know, we all have horrible thoughts at times, you know, we just do. It's just that, I don't know what that is, but all have horrible thoughts at times. We just do. I don't know what that is, but we have them. They're there. Understanding that these things are normal. These things are life. It is a roller coaster. You're going to feel these high highs and low lows.

The higher the highs, probably the lower the lows at the same time. Writing through those moments and just knowing that this is the human experience and that the cave as a form you was talking about. I think you also do everyone at disservice by like when they tell their story of like how you got where you got like particularly when you're successful is we tell this really simple, clean narrative

where it was obvious that it was always gonna happen and like we're like, I knew from when I was six I wanted to be a writer. And it's like, did you really? Or did you also think you're going to be an astronaut and there's other things? And only later did that become clear. Right?

And so when you hear people's stories, it can be intimidating because they've polished all the surfaces and rounded off all the edges. And then it makes you feel weird and inadequate or incapable because you're like, but my story's not like that. You know what I mean? If you're like, I always do, I could do it

and then I did it. Well, it's like, but you're not, you didn't always think you could do it. There was the moments where, you know, you were for sure thought you were gonna get fired or wasn't gonna work. And so by not talking about those, you're actually making this hard thing harder for other people. So if you go, oh, you know, Z's for me. I just, you know, did X, Y, or Z, and now I'm good. Like, well, then this other person who goes like, well, I'm fucking, you know, riddled with insecurity and doubt.

And I am crying myself to sleep every night. They think they're the weirdo. But actually, there's nothing weird about it at all. No, no, yeah, that's very true. That is, I guess in a sense selfish, but also it's just not being honest, you know? Yeah, everyone pretends they have a perfect marriage and they don't.

And then you go, like, well, why is my marriage so bad? And it's like, actually, if you knew what everyone else's marriage is like, it'd be pretty chill probably, you know? You're still married. You're not great. Yeah, exactly. And then yeah, I think it also contributes

to this sense that we're not all in it together, right? One of the only military metaphor is that Marcus uses, he says, like a soldier storming a wall, you fall in and now you have to reach and ask a comrade for help. And then he goes, so what? To me, what I love about that, I think it's so the opposite of the image people think about stoicism, I love that he goes, you have to ask for help. So what? Like, it's not even celebrating. It's like, it's expressing it how it should be seen, which is not a fucking big deal at

all. Like, if you're like, hey, could you hand me that? You're not like, how dare you impose, right? Exactly. You're like, sure, it's right here. But like we have this aversion to asking for help admitting doubt or error or, you know, relying on people and then it makes it so much harder than it needs to be, especially when we're struggling. That's just all you go. Yeah, yeah, you know, it totally is. And we all struggle with it, I think.

I think everybody does. I mean, we never want to look stupid. You know, we don't. We just, we want to do everything to look good or avoid looking bad or whatever it is. Like, that's just who we are. You know, but I think of just the awareness and understanding that. And then, like, you kind of alluded to earlier with some of the things you were saying about depriving others, you know, when you depriving others of the opportunity

to help you too, it's selfish, man. Like that's all we wanna do. Like, you know, we love it nothing more when you've got that person that you admire maybe even, or you think they've got it all squared away, and then they reach out to you. I'm like, hey, what do you think about this? Like they want your opinion, and they want your help.

You know, and you're like, nice. This is cool. It's good. People ask you for help. You're always like, sure, you're like excited, you know? You're never like, oh, these people are always coming. Unless they're always asking you for help on something, still, but you know they can handle on it.

Yes, but I mean, generally when people are vulnerable about something they're really struggling with and don't know, or whatever, and you're like, you're excited. When, like, if your friends come to you and they're like, I don't know what to do, or like, I'm really worried about this. You're like, this is amazing.

Like, not only you're excited, but you're like, look at us, you know? And then, you actually value my opinion. And then, you're like, you don't know something, or you have doubts, or you're insecure, then you're like, you don't know something or you have doubts or you're insecure and you're like, I don't wanna bother them. Or like they'll hate me for this. And it's like, it's probably much closer

to your reaction to things than whatever you're making up about other people. Yeah, and I think it's often harder that closer that person is to you. Because you're like, no, I don't want to give them that power. You know what I mean? I see that a lot in, I notice that a lot in relationships where it's like, I don't want my girlfriend to think

that I don't have this covered. I got to figure it out. And it's like, if I do this, then I look weak. And all of a sudden, they've got the power and this dynamic. And it's just, I mean, it's stupid. But you know, he says that in the movie and it's kind of becoming cliche now. But one of the guys says to your character,

you know, like, you got to stop taking care of us and you got to put your oxygen mask on, you know? And it's the idea of like, also like, you can admit you're struggling. Like, and you're gonna give these other people a chance to help you, the way that you have helped them. Right. But it can be hard.

It can be hard too, because we think we don't deserve it. Yeah. You know, we're not worth it. Like I'm a shitty person. Yeah. If you only knew the things that I've thought or whatever, and it's like, dude,

I think the same things. And, you know, I don't love every thought that I thought or whatever, and it's like, I think the same things. And I don't love every thought that pops in my head, but that's just who we are. Well, that's the, again, the premise of the movie is these two strong alpha dudes, very different experiences. Fundamentally, are struggling with the same transition, the same issues, and they would never guess it, and neither of them can come out and say it.

It's only because circumstances sort of throw them together, but it turns out that everyone's going through something and in fact a lot of people are going through the exact same thing as you. Yeah, and I hope, as it came across, I recently watched the Barbie movie. Have you seen it? It's actually very good.

It's not what I thought at all. But as that movie, for me, yes, there's a big element of, you know, the patriarchy and empheminism and all these things. But the way that it was written and the way that it was written and the way that was performed, the way that was done spoke to me too. I spoke to a lot of people I think that wouldn't think that it would. And my hope with MVP was the same way in the reverse order

because it is a very sort of masculine story, you know, these two men, you know, I think. But I've had quite a bit, you know, quite a few women and not just veterans that connected to that and felt some of those similar, feel some of those similar things. And that was good. That was like, I mean, that was a big part of it for me. Well, that was important because that means it's relatable. These people are now, this experience is now relatable to someone who thought, maybe I would never be able to fully understand

or even partially understand the experience of someone going to war, thought maybe I would never be able to fully understand or even partially understand The experience of someone going to war, you know, or playing professional sports or whatever like I just don't it's not my world It's not my people. I don't get them and then now they're just like oh wait, they're they're very very human her movie lady bird I think is one of the greatest movies all time. It's great. Oh, Marry's better It's just made like ability. You got to see it man. It's just now. It's better. It just has made like a billion times. You got to see it, man. It's just now, it's just the writing was, I mean, her and her no bomb back wrote that together, they're both brilliant.

But it was how to make that IP into what they created, I think, is pretty amazing. I really do. All right, so as we wrap up, I wanted to ask you about the Capricornic thing a little bit, because one of the things I think is so interesting about it is, and maybe this is a thing that's, I think a lot about from a sort of a marketing and a strategy, Stan Mugich, I talked about in some of my books, which is the rightness of one's cause and the way one goes about it or the best way to get people on the side

of said cause, I think people often all assume are the same thing, but they're not. And so what I think is so interesting about your sort of small role in this thing that became so big, one of the probably the biggest story in sports in a generation like it, people will be talking about it in a long time, is you're talking about giving notes. You're sort of like, hey, you know, if you do it this way, the same thing, what you're saying in your cause is the same, but the way it's perceived is fundamentally different. And I, yeah, sure, sure.

But I often wonder if he, if you guys had had that conversation before the protest had begun, how differently the whole arc of the story might have even gone. Now that's very interesting. No, I mean, yeah, that was a, that was a crazy, crazy time. It was, it was exactly a year after I got cut. So it was a crazy, crazy time. It was exactly a year after I got cut.

So it was a preseason of 2016. And it was also Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton. Yeah, that was the election was in two months. Yeah. And all of this was sort of this perfect storm of division and chaos. And it's like, all right, everybody, get to your sides and batten down the hatches and dig in because here we go. And then he starts sitting on the bench

and I didn't even really know about it right off the bat. I caught wind of it through social media. People just, and I understandably a lot of people that I've followed, especially at the time, were of the veteran community, you know, and sports as well, but a lot of vets. And so there was a lot of anger and people that were pissed off and upset. And my initial reaction was very similar, just like, I'm a huge 49er fan, as I mentioned, and Capronix saved our team, our franchise. It got us back to the Super Bowl. And I'm like, man, what is he, why is he,

he doesn't stand, he's not standing for the anthem. And like, does he even understand what it means to some of us in the military and like just these very, you know, sort of, I wanna say selfish, but I guess, just a very obtuse, you know, reaction to this because of just thinking of my experience, just focusing inward and just taking it all personal. And so I started to read up on it a little bit and I was getting reached out to by, you know, all the like Fox news and MSNBC and CNN and you name it. They wanted me to come on and probably debate, you know, why

is he right? Why is he wrong? Whatever. And I'm like, I don't want to be a part of that. And I don't think that's going to help. And the army times had reached out, which nobody reads to be fair. Not that many people. That's not true, that's not fair. But they'd reached out and said, you know, would you write something? And I was like, I don't want to inject into this conversation. I don't think. And then they reached out again. And I kept getting, I had a lot of people reached out. And guys I served with too, that were like, you got to say something, man, you got to like get involved. And I think they all expected me to just be like, this is why you should stand, you know. And so I agreed, at the second time,

the army reached out, or the army times reached out, I agreed to write an open letter. I said, if you don't edit it, if you just, you know, you can obviously give me your feedback when I send you it, but. So I wrote this thing in like an hour and a half, and it was just kind of explaining some of my experiences, you know, what I'd been a part of in the military. I ended up doing one of the main

reasons I joined as I went and did some relief work in the Darfur before I joined the military and that's what inspired me to not only serve but but become a green beret. And I wrote a bit about that. And our motto, day of press O Lee Bear, to free the oppressed, that's something I've committed to doing when I enlisted. And I want to keep being a part of that. And the reason that these symbols mean so much to us, because our relationship with them,

I carried my best friend's casket, draped in an American flag. At the end of seer school, when we were liberated, they played the anthem and I just, I mean, it's a training, but I didn't feel like it in the moment. And so I'm very indoctrinated into these things, right? But they do mean something to me. Something very special in what they stand for, what they are meant to stand for anyway, in we fight for. And, you know, I sent the letter to them, they said, no notes, we're publishing it in the morning, and I was like, okay, so they did. And I woke up and my voice mail was full, my email was, you know, I blown up. And a lot of sports riders had seen it and started sharing it. So it just

became quickly viral. And I remember Lance Armstrong sent me a message, strong. He was like, all he wrote. And I never talked to the guy before and it was just, it was cool. But also I was suddenly just like, in a panic, just like, oh my gosh, what have I done? What have I done? And then to him, most of it was very positive. But still, I was like, now I'm in the middle of this thing and, you know, and I don't, I'm not prepared. I'm not educated on this situation. And, you know, I understand, I understand it. I very understood it at a very low level. Like, you know, he was

protesting. He was not standing during the anthem and protest of police brutality, racial inequality, social, social injustice. And these things, not the flag or the anthem specifically, which that was a narrative for a lot of people. And, you know, I get a call from NFL Network and I've done some stuff with them in the past. And okay, would you come on and just sit down and have a conversation with Lindsay Rhodes, one of our anchors today about the letter.

And I'm like, I mean, if I'm gonna go on with anybody I'd go on with you guys, because I know it's not gonna be political. And I'm like, I just just make, just please protect me. And they're like, no, no, no, this is not like, you know, we're very proud of you. We think it's good what you did. So I'm in the green room getting ready to go on there

and a cappernick's publicist called me and said, hey, Colin read the letter and he wants to meet with you tomorrow. They're playing the chargers down in San Diego. It's the final preseason game. He'd love to sit down with you before the game in the lobby of the team hotel and just talk about it. And I'm like, is there going to be like, camera there?

It's like, no, no, no, he just genuinely wants to meet you and have a conversation. And I'm like, is there gonna be like, camera there? And say, no, no, no, he just genuinely wants to meet you and have a conversation. And I was like, okay, also I'm terrified. But I'm just like, yeah, sure, got it. So I go to the interview, and then the next morning, I take an Uber down to San Diego, because I had to fly here afterwards for something else. I go down there, I meet him in the lobby,

you know, and call him's a big dude. He's like, six fives, got the afro, he's jacked, and everybody recognizes him because he's been all over the news, especially recently. And we sit down on this little coffee table and Eric Reed joins us, another player for the 49ers who played for quite a while afterwards. And it was like, it was such a chill conversation for what was going on. I mean, it was an hour and a half or so of just these three guys,

like we're sitting in a locker room, just talking about life and we laughed about stuff. And, you know, there definitely was this element of like, man, this thing just blew up quick, you know, and it wasn't like Colin was panicking and anyway, I was panicking internally for sure. I don't know what he was feeling. I would not pretend to know what he was feeling.

But he was definitely very curious and had a lot of questions. And as we talked, he sort of asked. And I showed him some messages that I'd received from Vets, you know, people that were like, hey, man, like, I appreciate your letter, but I just left the tarmac in Seattle and one of our brothers was unloaded from the plane in a coffin draped in the flag. I'm standing next to his wife and she's a mess.

So I just like anybody that disrespects our country, I can't even know that was not Collins intent. That's how people were perceiving it to your point. So I showed him that and he was very responsive to that, you know, and was just like, wow, like I don't, I don't want people to feel that way. I don't want to be responsible for those kind of feelings. And so he said, well, do you think there's another way I could protest this, not going to offend people in the military? And I was like, no, there's nothing you can do that's not going to offend some people, you And I was like, no, there's nothing you can do, it's not gonna offend some people.

But also if you, this is something I sort of realized later, but if you just all of a sudden just fall back in line and stand, then you're gonna be absolutely offending a lot of people that were with you on this thing. And he committed, he's a very committed person. And he was like, no, I've committed to not standing, I'm not going to, but if you think there's something else, I said, well, you know, to me being alongside your teammates is important.

It would be the most important thing. You're about to go out on the field with these guys. And they all think differently. Some of them are with you on this. Some of them maybe aren't, but you're putting that aside. And we're going working together towards something. And that's a great lesson the country needs to see right now. So I said, I think being alongside your teammates

is the most important thing. And if you're committed to not standing, I would say taking a knee is the only thing that kind of makes logistical sense, and people take a knee to pray and propose to their future spouse and when a player on the field's hurt, they take a knee and when I go visit my buddy, my best friend Brad who passed away.

Like I said, I carried this man's casket and this guy was like my hero. When I go visit, I take a knee in front of his grave and spend a moment or several moments with him. I think that's a respectful gesture. Well, they're fundamentally different gestures. Sitting can feel petulant or a rejection and kneeling is a sign of reverence or respect, but the fact that you're not doing what everyone else is doing still lodges the protest. Totally, totally.

It's like a flag at half mast, I'll just, you know, I think I almost saw it in that way. And he agreed. And you know, initially, when we talked, I considered kneeling with him. It was something that was like, if I'm, if he's willing to adjust like this, I feel like maybe, you know, maybe I should. And then we talked about that. And I was very uneasy about it and unsure.

And as he was going to get on the team bus and all this and I had to go talk to some of the Niners front office because I told him, hey, look, he's willing to take a knee alongside the team and everything. But I told them I'd do it with them, or I'd be there with them. And they said, okay, so we'll have you there. And then I thought about and I talked to him.

I can't remember if I texted him, or I think I must have texted Colin and said, hey brother, I'm gonna be with you next year on the field. But I think I'm gonna stand if it's okay. I just don't know if I, I don't, it's not that I disagree with what you're doing, but it's just a different situation. It's a different.

It's your protest, either. It's also not my protest, that's a very good point. But it was just like, I feel differently about these symbols. And he was like, you know, all good, you know, see you out there, whatever, I don't remember. Exactly. But so, yeah, so go down there, you know, on the sideline, games about to start. The anthem sung by, you know, a, you know, black man in the Navy, you know, in uniform, it's like the week, it's like a couple weeks before 9-11 or maybe a week before.

So it's like the 9-11 remembrance game in San Diego, which is a very military town. Navy seals are jumping in the stadium. There's a flyover, the whole thing. And so the anthem starts, him and Eric both taken me, I'm standing next to him with my hand in my heart. And the first thing I remember is the boo, all the boo's from the crowd. And I was just like, this is gross. Like, how is that? How is that not?

Like incrementally more disrespectful. Yeah. It just was, I just don't understand how like, what he's doing is so bad, but like that, you know during the afternoon you're gonna boo, like while it's being played, if you're really this patriotic and this means as much to you or whatever.

And yeah, and then that sort of caught, you know, it became something that a lot of people were doing in common way. It's the statement that we got. Yeah. And, you know, we're calling a stood for, I guess, Nellt for initially sat for whatever you want to call it, is still something that's done. I mean, in like the premier league, there's a play to do this.

Yeah, it's well. Yeah, it's well. No, I think I, we don't have to get into the whole, the claims of the protests, which I think he's largely right about. But I just think it's important not only first out that you instead of, you know, taking your offense, you listened to the person and you helped them. He listened to, though. No, I mean, but vice versa, like you instead of being, hey, I'm so offended. You said, well, what's this person trying to say?

And then he was like, then you said what you had to say and then he listened to what you had to say. And two of you came together. I think there's something beautiful in that. But I think just also generally, just because you're right doesn't mean that just saying what you think is the way to change people's minds, right?

Like I think I just didn't read this guy Paul Kicks wrote this great book about the civil rights movement. But we were talking about this like what Martin Luther King and all the activists really figured out was they figured out the symbols and the ideas and they co-opted them to reflect them back at the people who are not living up to the ideas, right? And there's a reason that the March on Washington ends at the Lincoln monument, not some random steps of some church. Do you know what I mean?

Like, the symbolism of doing that in front of Lincoln was deliberate and intentional and incredibly powerful. Like, you look at it and you just get the goosebumps. And so I think what I take from that is just sort of, not the main lesson, but as a lesson, which is the symbolism and the optics of what you're doing, they matter a great deal. And you're the tweak that you made.

I think it did help a lot of people hear it that maybe wouldn't have heard it otherwise. As you said, some people are still very mad about it, but I think to go, oh, instead of, hey, this is a rejection of America. This is actually a solemn sort of protest that what this flag represents is not being lived up to. Those are two radically different statements, even though they're coming from the same place that what this flag represents is not being lived up to.

Those are two radically different statements, even though they're coming from the same place of dissatisfaction and objection. Right, and I wanna make sure Hammer at home again make it ultra clear that, it was the change that he made, or the adjustment that he made. He could have kept saying,

I think what I think, I'm doing what I'm doing, I don't give a fuck what you think about it, which also is perfectly and legitimately entitled to do and would have been courageous in and of itself. Like if you deliberately take the heat from like the entire world and the president, the future president, that's a ballsy move

just in and of itself, even if you're not right. And I'm not saying he's not right. But I'm just saying like, you take the whole heat of itself, even if you're not right. I'm not saying he's not right. But I'm just saying like, do you take the whole heat of everyone? That's, that takes something. That willingness to, the humility and willingness to adjust is something that really got lost, I think, through this whole thing,

because it wasn't divisive, you know, the main end, it's not gonna sell ad space, you know? So we're not gonna talk about that. But it's like, that's a huge thing. And I think the more people that have heard that, you know, have also listened in a different way. They're just like, okay, well, wow. And then it took, unfortunately, it took George Floyd in this whole situation, the protest for a lot of, you know, organizations, companies to say like, you know, maybe we were wrong, but you know, that this whole like, oh, we stand with this now. I'm like,

eat, do you? Yeah, sure. You're just trying to, you're trying to sell more chips. Well, and also though, I think credit to him too is like, I'm not protesting. I'm, I'm protesting because I want people to see this and make a change. So if the way that I'm doing it is not having the effect, I'm not just going to keep doing that thing. I'm going to tweak, right? Because my strong base isn't going to want to be the one to change this. It's going to be people that disagree with me, that are going to be the ones I'm going to need to help make this change. Yeah, yeah. There's some, if they were like, hey, if you change the title of your movie, the audience will be 20X better, or 20X better, you'd be an idiot not to change the title of your

movie. Unless it was betraying the to change the title of your movie. Unless it was betraying the values that the movie was about. And so the ability to be flexible and dial it in. It's like, hey, just this slight tweak, radically opens it up or radically changes the optics of it. And then also just being right or having the moral high ground is not enough. It's also the means of communication

is what you're doing creating allies or is it just creating enemies. You know, that's a whole part of your goal. Are you genuinely trying to create change? Yeah, you just flip it in a middle finger. Yeah, exactly. Now, I think it's such a great story, man. And also, I think a reminder that like, a little thing you do can end up becoming a huge part of your legacy, both for him and for you. Like you were just involved in this sort of sports change in paradigm shifting thing

because you like, you know what I mean? And vice versa, him the decision, he's like, I feel this way about the world. I could just, I got enough of my plate being the quarterback of a, you know, having one of, you know, 32 jobs in, you know, what? Totally. You know, and like, I'm making millions of dollars, not going to my own shit to deal with, to be like, no, I'm going to do something about, I'm going to say something about this

thing that I feel. That's also a big part of it. Yeah. And it's funny, like, what I wrote was an open letter to Colin, but it wasn't for Colin right it was for Making up a number the 80% of the people Kind of in the middle who you know whether you lean left or right you have some reason about you Yeah, that felt like I felt or it was just like Okay, like I totally see why he's doing what he's doing and

You know in all this and and and and yes these things are important to me, but like, I have to understand he has a very different experience to me. You know, he did not need to not serve in the military. He came from a different background, a totally different life. He's a person of color. I'm not all these things that I don't understand. And if I pretend to understand, that's just, I mean, it's absolutely arrogant for me to like, no, to be this all-knowing in this situation.

And I think that that, I think that was, you know, that was the intent. It was just to speak to other people like me, to be like, hey, look, like this is how I feel, but you know, just look at it in these terms. I think of it in this way. And it's like, but then it ended up, you know, it did speak, it spoke to him too, which was cool.

Yeah, totally. Man, this was awesome. Thanks so much. Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate it, brother. Thank you so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show.

We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic Early and Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. Deep in the Enchanted Forest, from the whimsical world of Disney Frozen, something is wrong. Aaron Dell is in danger once again, from dark forces threatening to disrupt the peace and tranquility. And it's up to Anna and Elsa to stop the villains before it's too late.

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