The Daily Stoic - Nate Boyer On Striving For Excellence In Everything

Episode Date: September 30, 2023

Ryan speaks with Nate Boyer in the first of a two-part interview about what serving six years and multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan as a Green Beret taught him about life, how he was able to become an NFL starter at a position he had never played before, how he is striving to be great in his television career, and more.Nate Boyer is a United States Army Green Beret, former football player, actor, director, producer, and television host. Despite never having played a down of organized football in his life, Nate played college football as a walk-on at the University of Texas, and he was later signed by the Seattle Seahawks as an undrafted free agent in 2015. In 2004, Nate became a relief worker shortly before enlisting in the Army and being accepted into the Green Berets. He earned an honorable discharge after six years of service, after which he pursued a career in film and television. Since then, he has appeared in an ESPN documentary about his life, the film Den of Thieves, the show Mayans M.C., the video game Madden NFL 18, and many other notable media properties. Nate currently hosts the Discovery channel reality competition series Survive the Raft. In 2022, Nate wrote, directed, and starred in the acclaimed film MVP. You can follow Nate on Instagram @NateBoyer37, and you can check out his charity Merging Vets and Players at vetsandplayers.org.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We can't see tomorrow, but we can hear it. And it sounds like a renewable natural gas bus replacing conventional fleets. We're bridging to a sustainable energy future, working today to ensure tomorrow is on. Enrich, life takes energy. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is

some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on. So do sit back and enjoy Brighton and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus or wherever you get your podcasts. your podcasts. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Sirete. And we are the hosts of a Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nepali's Royal Massacre and the Nithory Child Sacrifices.

Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Find, download, and binge-read-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts. Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance and wisdom. And then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a

walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Steal at Podcast. I'm always really impressed when people can do more than one thing. We have this expression, you know, a renaissance man. That can sometimes feel a bit overstated or a bit over the top. So I feel like we need to do a better job celebrating people who prove that actually you can be world class at one thing. That can be a phase or a season of life, then go on to the next thing, go on to the next one. And what I like about that is not that necessarily,

we need to do all those things. But they remind us that, hey, actually, if you take the time to deconstruct how something works, if you really put yourself out there, if you really go after it, you can do it. And nothing proves this more than my guest today, a guy who's been a Green Beret, a professional football player, and then just

wrote, starred, and and directed a movie about his life, and the nonprofit that he runs, which helps transitioning fets and athletes, people who are leaving the armed forces, leaving college sports, professional sports, you know, a life in athletics and then heading into the real world. Both both are becoming civilians again. It's an organization called MVP Merging Vets and Players. Guests is Nate Boyer, a fascinating guy, someone whose work I've been familiar with for a long time, who I've seen in the news on television. I didn't know about this new movie, but I was really excited to check it out.

And it came out to the studio, and we had an awesome conversation. He lives in Texas part of the time, which dates back to his time as a walk-on player at UT. Again, it's an crazy story. This guy is in the green berets. He does like six years, multiple tours, in combat, in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then at like 29 is a walk on at UT,

position he'd never played before long snapper. And then he becomes an undrafted free agent who signs with the Seattle Seahawks in 2015. We'll get into a bunch of stuff in the interview, but I was really excited to have this guy on. I just checked out his new movie, MVP. I streamed it on, I believe, showtime. It was a great movie. I really enjoyed it. And I think you're really going to like it.

You can go to vetsandplayers.org to find out more about MVP, his charity. The movie is great. Check out MVP starring Nate Boyer, and you can follow him on Instagram at NateBoyer37. And I think you're really going to like this interview. It was a long chat, we did more than two hours, so I'm going to split it up into two episodes. But let's get right into it. And then I have some exciting news to tell you that Nate just pulled off and I'll kick that off of my intro to part two.

What is stars on Mars? What is that? It's like a reality. I haven't watched it so I'm just from what I know from the groups. But it's like a reality show but then it's it. So I'm just from what I know from the groups, but it's like It's like a reality show, but then it's simulating. They're all in a colony on Mars. Hmm I mean, I'm seeing that so I don't know if you I don't know if you know I'm a show. Yeah, I'm hosting this discovery channel series right now So it's like it's funny. I mean hosting it. I was seeing a lot of what was going on But I wasn't seeing all of it. Yeah, and so then now watching it

Yeah, and I usually watch it a few days after it's out. So people can like interview about like, what do you, you know, from some reality publication or whatever about like, what do you think? And I'm like, yeah, I don't know what happened. You know, I go back and watch it. It's just a bunch of stuff happens, and then they cut to get, like the shows have writers. Yeah, writing, definitely happening. They write out. A little different, because it's like a bunch of stuff happens and then they cut to get like the shows have writers. Yeah, writing is happening.

This one is happening. They write out a little different because it's like a social experiment. So it is very as compared to others, it's less scripted up, posted some other things that are a little more. But I mean, the writers aren't writing the scripts. They write the scripts after in that they look at all the footage and then they go, shears what happened. True, that's true.

Like here, because you could, you have hundreds of hours of footage, and then you have to pick what you're gonna show, what you're not gonna show, and all those things connect together. True, but you kinda know the big moments, at least when you're out there, like kinda the big beats and all that, but it's still interesting,

cause I just, I heard like, oh, so and so had a thing with so and so, or like this person was dragging the team down and you don't really know what that looks like until you see him, you're like, oh yeah. Right, because as the host, you're not like in the thing. And they're there for, on an hour long episode, I'm probably up here four times.

Right. So in an outfit, I mean, it's three to five minutes and then gone, you know, and then it's them. It must also be weird to do this in this movie, like all the, like as the director, you're like, this shot, this shot, you're having to, you know how hard it is to get all the shots. Yeah, right.

So then a reality show, it looks good, but then there's this idea of like, well, how did I get it all? Like, you know, there, the difference between sort of very orchestrated and not orchestrated, I imagine it's a blurred line. No, totally different though, because like nine cameras

capturing all this different stuff happening at once, and like you said, thousands of hours of footage, versus still a lot of takes you gotta go through, but it's of the scene that you know you shot and the dialogue you know that's written. You know what I mean? You kinda know, even when you're shooting it, you kinda mark your faves.

You star your takes and you're like, that's my number one, that's my number two, and then you go back and edit. You have a pretty good idea of how to do it. But at the very least, you also have in your mind what you want it to look like. And so you're checking it against the directorial vision. Like as a writer, you know, at the weird part is you're sitting down and you're making something and it's just like coming out. But at the same time, you also have this picture in your head of what you want it to be. And so there's this kind of disconnect slash, like, you're trying to take this thing and

shape it into what your vision of it is for. And at the same time, you're envisioning something that doesn't exist. So there are it is kind of mind-blowing in that sense. Yeah. Like, you have the movie in your head before you made it. Right. And then you made it real. Right.

Yeah, definitely. And it turns out a lot different than what you envisioned. Yes. And I think in a good way, I hope in a good way. At least from what I thought it would look and feel like and what it did. You know, it was the only thing I, I don't like watching myself up there. Of course.

You just, that was so much harder. So critical of everything you do. And, you know, and of course, you know, people tell you, oh, you did a good job. You did a great, good job. And it's like, yeah, you have to tell me that. Yeah, that's, no, getting actual feedback in life is so hard.

Like the speaking that I do, no one's ever like, eh, you know, like, there's people who don't like you and they'll tell you that you suck, right? Like you'll see that randomly on the internet, but very rarely in life, are you gonna get someone who goes like, not your best work, or like, you know what you need

to stop doing, like, because everyone just goes, that was amazing. You killed, like, when you walk off stage, because you're nobody likes doing, like everyone is so intimidated by the prospect of doing a thing in front of lots of people that they just wanna tell you you did a good job. And so how do you get better if you don't hear

where you're not doing well? That's my big thing on just notes generally. Whether it's notes on a script or notes on a performance or notes on me as a person, just tell me what I can fix. And I appreciate you being gracious and telling me a good job, but that doesn't help me. And I would say like I'm a glass half empty kind of person, and it's not that I'm negative, but like I want to fill the glass up. Sure. I don't want to be cool with half a glass. I want the full glass. So what can I do to fill the glass? We, yeah, you do one of the things I always go is like, what are your least favorite part?

Like, what would you cut? Like, what, like, what didn't do it for you? Like, what was, what did you feel like? And so, if you sort of, if you just go, what do you think people are going to be like, it was great. But if you sort of can specifically nudge them towards what you don't. Like, I mean, that can be a problem but they think you want notes, so they just like tell you shit. And then you can end up like fixing stuff that's not broken or, you know, they're just, or they don't really understand what you're trying to do. So for you to take their feedback, it doesn't actually get you closer to what you want to do. But I think generally nudging people towards disconfirmation versus confirmation. to do. So for you to take their feedback, it doesn't actually get you closer to what you want to do. Right.

But I think generally nudging people towards disconfirmation versus confirmation is the way you want to do it. What can I do better? Yeah. How is the glass? They know have glass FMD instead of full. That's the only way you can get better. And I love getting a lot of notes from a lot of people because you get the same note twice or three times or four times.

If they don't know each other. It's like, yeah, if they don't know each other, it's like, all right, I was so stubborn on this point and I was like, no, no, you don't understand. And it's like, all right, maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe this is not the best way or the only way. Well, there's this Stephen King thing about how you have to kill your darlings.

Like basically whatever you love the most is probably the mind, like the thing you're gonna have to get rid of, because it's what you're most biased about. And so when you independently get multiple people telling you, like, you gotta cut your favorite part, that's the hardest, because it means they're probably right,

and you're probably, unless you're like, but that's the only reason I'm doing it. You have to know, is this a sort of a self-indulgent, you know, like bias thing, or is this the thing that, right? Like, is this my thing? And so, like, what's a darling versus what is like, integrity, that's a tricky balance.

Yeah, no, that's a good point. I guess there was some things in the MVP movie that, especially in posts, but even in the script that people were like, some people, not everybody, some people were like, I love this scene, some people are like, ah, can we, you know, can you think of another way to, and it came down to the fact that it was sort of loved and hated, and no one was like, man, on it. I was like, that's good. Even if they don't like it, at least it's got a, there's an opinion around it. And it was just a moment where I felt like

there wasn't on our budget. There maybe wasn't another way to nail that point home or to like get people to sort of really pay attention to what's about to happen next, to kind of get, so we ended up sticking with it. Love it or hate it, there's still people that have me up about this specific scene that are like, oh, what's you missing?

It's at the gun, they're at a gun range. And okay, so in, you know, in this- There's those spoilers in this. Okay, like, yeah. Yeah, in the military, you don't point a weapon in someone's general direction, especially on a practice range. Unless you never point a weapon in someone's general direction, unless you intend to pull the trigger and intended to kill that target basically. And so in the film, there's a scene where they're at the range and one of the protagonists is down,

putting up the new target and the other guys back there and the whole point is to create a reaction from this person and make them feel something they haven't felt in a very long time. And there was never an intent to harm. And this person is, we believe to be a good enough shot that the bullets seem a lot closer than they actually are to the person that's getting fired upon. And I can't imagine what it's like to be a good enough shot that they, the bullets seem a lot closer than they actually are. Right.

To the person that's getting fired upon. And I can't imagine what it's like to be that person that feels like you're fired upon in that scenario. It probably is, it probably feels a lot closer than what you would, you would maybe, what maybe is the reality. In either way, the way that it's a lot of that scene is through Will's perspective, who's the one being fired at. And so, we feel this fear and all these things that sort of lead to the next part of the, it's really the tipping point in the film.

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like an unhinged scene. Like, it's a very dangerous, like not rational thing to do. Totally. So you get what I have to be polarized. But yeah, so you get why I would be polarizing. But yeah, sometimes you get, it's funny. It's like you as the person doing the thing, you know, hey, I don't have any money to do it this different way

or all these other things depend on it. And so you sometimes get notes from people and you realize, like, oh, they're giving me notes because yeah, they don't understand what my budget is or they don't understand how this works, like where I am in the process. And so, one of the rules that I got from someone that was good is like, when someone tells you

something's wrong, they're always right, or almost always right, and then when someone tells you how to fix it, they're almost always wrong. So when they're like, this scene isn't working, or this page isn't working, they're right, because in their opinion, in their experience, it didn't work. But when they're like, what you have to do is cut it, or what you have to do is do it this way, then that's only fixing it specifically for them, or with their limited knowledge of

like the craft or whatever. So I go, okay, I'm noting that there was some objections here and now I'm going to fuck with it and work on it, but I'm not just going to do what they say. Because I'm the one that knows how to do it. This is my work. And so that's a, I think also a, like ego says, like, who are you to tell me what to do? You don't know anything. And then confidence goes, okay, I hear you. I'm gonna put some more time on this, but it may well be that there's nothing to do here. Right, that's interesting.

All right, so from the movie, what would you fix? What do I need? What do I know? What would I fix about the movie? I don't know. I don't know. I really like it. What doesn't work?

The correct answer is nothing. Correct. Was he wanna honest feedback or do you want to do it? It was amazing. Absolutely. But also the shitty thing is though, like people are like, here's what I would do differently. And you're like, cool, it's done and published. So totally totally.

I don't know. I'd love to hear this because there's going to be more. I want to do more. I want to continue to, you know, I want to ask you about that. I could tell it was your first movie. Okay. You know, in the sense that like, when you're writing a first book, you know, I want to ask you about that. I could tell it was your first movie. Okay. You know, in the sense that like, there's like when you're writing a first book,

you're doing it for, there's all the things that you're having to figure out that you've never done before. And so, and with a movie, like every, I don't think people always understand like every, like you had to drive to a place, set up locations. Like that shot could have been a whole day. This one, eight second shot could be a whole day.

So people don't understand like what goes into movies. Like it's like, it took eight seconds on the screen, but that could have been eight days of work, you know? That's true. But I felt like, and I also sort of know where this would come. I felt like I couldn't quite get the angst that the athlete was in yet, because I could tell you didn't have the top, like the vet, you're like, it would suck to be

an Afghanistan and rack and come home. That's like a hard transition. Like the angst of the athlete, especially at the beginning, I was still a little bit like, it's not I didn't buy it, but I was wondering where his pain took longer to unfold because it's more on the inside pain, you know? Right, right. Yeah, it's not so clear. It's not so clear to just in general knowledge. I mean, even myself, and I played a bit of sports and all that, and I've been around a lot of very successful pro athletes.

And so I have a little bit of a different insight because I've just, especially a lot of these football players that people like Tony Gonzalez who are in the movie. And he tells a bit of story. He's amazing dude. But he's in the other studio. But I texted him before you came in. Oh, right on.

Yeah, and he's, you know, he's like, one of the greatest to ever do it at his position, and at any position, really. But, and he tells the story in the movie even, but like he, the feeling that I'll never be great again and that, like, that, even though he's got all the accolades and, you know, financially, he was smart and he did it all right.

And, and he's just one of these people that, that you know he played the game right and his first ballad hallfamer and still just felt like empty and I could have done more I didn't do enough. I'm a failure. I'm a you know what am I now? I'm nothing. And there's just so many of those stories at various levels and there's a lot of these like the Will Phillips character that you know I mean he's a he's a composite a fictional character, but he's based on real people that you didn't even heard about. You know, you knew about that, you know, played for whether it was three years or 13 years and just wasn't the right circumstance. Didn't have, you know, even you look at someone like Tom Brady, you never know if Drew Bloodstone ever gets hurt or he's not on the right

team and the right situation, like you never know, it meantsode ever gets hurt or he's not on the right team and the right situation like you never know It it it meant not a went the same way. Well, I thought so it's like his career ending is anti-climactic, right? He's great and then it's just he's not playing anymore. It wasn't like It wasn't like the almost it almost died on the field, right? So inherently that his ending is anti-climactic makes it hard for the audience to be like, I get where he's feeling. I understood like you did it in the scene, you have him trying to go to the game

like we're after he retires. And he like can't figure it out. Right, right. And like, so I get that subtext, which is like when you have your life I'll figure it out for you. And suddenly you have to go just like be a regular person in the world.

It's frustrating and weird and overwhelming. But like, in reality, that would have been a period for him of like a year or two of a just, like lots of those little things where you're like, I'm not the famous person anymore and nobody wants me anymore. So anyways, my only, not no. But like if I was looking at the script or something,

I would have said, I think it's, it's, essentially the movie is two parallel lives, like from very different circumstances, parallel lives, two people transitioning into reality and struggling with that transition slash reentry. Right. But the movie hinges on how clear the parallel is and his parallel is hardest to square with your character because we get your character. So immediately, that story's also been told thousands of times in all of, like half of art is about like,

veterans struggling with, you know, like, you know what I mean? So I think that's the challenge of the movie but that's also the entire premise of the movie, right? So you stick around and you know, like, you know what I mean? So, I think that's the challenge of the movie, but that's also the entire premise of the movie, right? So you stick around and you go, oh, they actually have more in common than you think. But that's, no, that's a great point, because I think in general, people also would be tougher to have empathy for that athlete, you know what I mean?

Because you're like, well, you're playing a game for a lot of money and blah, blah, blah, and the fame and the, you know, versus the veteran story. But there was a scene written in the original script that we just couldn't, there's just no way we could shoot. Part of it was budget, part of it was just, it was already too long. So it's still too long. Yeah.

It could, it could, it could get trimmed. But he, it's not only drive to that game, can't figure out, you know, where a park, blah, blah, blah. But he's, he's down on the sid can't figure out, you know, where Park, blah blah blah. But he's he's down on the sideline during the game. Yeah, or a pregame. And he's like super uncomfortable because he's not in pads and he's not out there and you get to see these guys, you know, and even the The water boy kind of gives him gives him shit. You know, it's just like this moment where it's just like it's so cringy Yeah. Because he wants to be out there and you can feel he's so awkward standing there watching everybody do what he loves and he can know and knowing he'll never do that again.

You know, and so. Well, no, and so it's like, my note, you had something to address it. But then for whatever reason, you couldn't get it in there. And that's all. I always try to be like, I think the more I've done stuff,

the more empathetic I am to the constraints that the people were under and I understand most people were trying to do their best. But that feeling I think is really interesting. I was actually, I was talking to Dante Hightower and he just, he'd like, took a year off and then retired. Like he didn't, he like, so his retirement was a little bit longer than people think, it was sort of like, will they want to, but I was talking to him about like,

where does that energy or intensity go, right? Because like to be great at anything, you have to have this sort of almost unhealthy obsession with the thing, right? Like you're an intense person, and that intensity is directed towards learning how to play playing the guitar or, you know, riding bowls or playing football or, you know, war fighting, right? Like to be great at something, it consumes you to a unhealthy degree, right? And then when the outlet for that thing goes away,

the intensity is still there and the single-mindedness and the obsession is still there, but now there's not an outlet for relief for that intensity. And so like, you would think, because writing books is hard, that I'd be more happy when I'm not writing one. But it's actually the opposite because when I'm not doing it, yes, I have more time and things are easier, but I also now have this, that doesn't know where to go. And so it actually takes more emotional regulation for me to not be doing the thing, doing

the thing. Do you remember the line right before he starts firing on him at the range? What did you just describe? You just described most of my post traumatic stress is from lack of traumatic stress. Yes, yes, yes. And that's that feeling, I think, that a lot of just people feel that are competitive people,

that are successful people, that especially it's something that's competitive and challenging and all of that, we just, that stress is comforting. When you've been deliberately subjecting yourself to stress since you were a kid, right? Like to be great at football or writing or acting or what you do, like you have to have been doing that thing for a long time. You don't just go like at 25. Like I think I'm going to get into this, right? It's like, it's been your thing. And so when that thing goes away,

you either have to find another outlet or it's sort of feasts on itself. Right. Right. Yeah, I mean, I was always obsessed as a kid with sports. I mean, sports were my thing. I wanted to be Joe Montana or Kevin Mitchell. I'm the San Francisco Giants fan. So all the Bay Area's just come?

Yeah, I grew up in Elcerito. Okay, yeah, I'm from Sacramento. Okay, cool. Yeah, so I grew up there and from the year I was born 81, the 9 or is won the Super Bowl that year and they won it four other times until I was 13. And so I was just obsessed with that. I was Joe Montana for Halloween, two years in a row. And I was 13. And so I was just obsessed with that. I was, I was Joe Montana for Halloween,

two years in a row. And, you know, this was me. But I never even, I never played football until a lot later in life. I played all these other sports. And by the time I was in middle school and I maybe had the opportunity, I was just, I was afraid of, you know,

not being good, being cut, riding the bench, you know, looking stupid, all those things that people think it. People struggle with it 13, but also people struggle with it. Share 30 or 50 or whatever. I definitely, it definitely hung with me. I had that regret for a long, long time all through high school and to my 20s into the military and eventually had to quell that, but in a way, I was still preparing for that opportunity in this weird, like, childish way. I always knew at some point I was going to try somehow. And it just didn't happen until I was 29, but it did happen. It's been interesting. I don't know if people totally get this. I think obviously people are like very impressed with Navy SEALs or Green Parays or sort of soldiers in general.

But I don't think you necessarily get that they have in them the same thing that professional athletes have or anyone who's elite at their profession. That's the way they see it, that's the way that they train. It's not as well paid or as public, but like, I've just come to understand like elite performance is elite performance, right? And so like, they're operating on similar schedules, similar sort of discipline. It's like, when I go to an NFL locker room or when I speak, like I spoke to the Green Brasad, Eglon a couple years ago.

Sam Thru. Yeah, and those guys are wild. Yeah, but you're like, oh, these are the same people. Like they actually do have a ton in common because they're just, they're extra. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's extra. And that's, that's,

I wonder if part of that is like knowing that your career is gonna end pretty quick. So yeah, that could be young, you know? I mean, if you make it to 25 in the NFL, it's not old, but that's like a landmark, you know? I mean, that three years is a typical career. And a lot of people are joined the military. They might join at 17 and do four years

or had a 21 and did this crazy stuff. And in special operations, obviously, it's typically longer. I did a total of 10, and you count my time in the National Guard. Yeah. But, but yeah, that like you said, I mean, the structure, the uniform,

like identifying with that uniform, it means a lot to you and a lot to other people. They're the same shit on the wall, like the valley, you know what I mean? Like they're talking the same, it's the same sort of set of principles and assumptions and like, you know. Yeah, yeah, the camaraderie.

I mean, boot camp, training camp, whatever it is, like you just, you get really close and these people could be from all walks of life that usually are. Very different experiences and beliefs and all that stuff, but you don't really care about that. You just sort of like, well, that guy would run through a wall for me. So I don't care what he believes. Like, I know he'll do that. And so I'll do the same for him. I wonder if also part of it is the understanding, like, how many people want the finite amount of spots also contributes to it, right?

So there's a, it's not a paranoia, but there's a sense that like, if you don't want it, you're not going to last very long. It's true. I spoke of the Naval Academy on the Sunday, and it's like, you think about who these kids beat out for these spots, right? And then you think about, and then at the end of it, there are like, there's how many submarine spots and how many, you know, naval aviation spots and how like if you want to be a captain of a ship like there's this thing and a lot of people want that thing. And so there's this, I think just like an NFL receiver knows like, hey, like not only is it generally short, but it can be short or if I take one day off because someone wants my, people would kill for my job, right? And so there's that kind of like the, just the-

It's the mamba mentality man. That was Kobe Bryant. Yeah. Yeah. It really was. I mean, and there's a lot of people in the, yeah, the military like that. I was fortunate enough to spend a bit of time in a unit

where we had, we had a lot of freedom to spend our spare time at the range if we wanted to. And there's just certain guys that were out there. He just thought, and they've got to be overtraining. They're just shooting way too much. They're doing way too much. And it turned out those are the guys that were the best. It just was.

No one's asking them to do it. But they want to be the best. They want to be the best. Yeah. And everything. And you're right. I mean, with the attrition They want to be the best at everything, at everything. And you're right. I mean, with the attrition rates being high and in both very high, at the higher you go, obviously, the higher the attrition rate, or just the less people that even apply, because

they've already talked themselves out of, there's no way I could do that. Like, I won't be. I'm not elite. Well, they just fundamentally don't even qualify. Like, you're not even, you're like already out of the running just from the basic qualifications, which are not easy. Right. Yeah. And it's, and it's wild though, because as you go, at least in my experience, the people, if you lined up all the people

in my, my basic training class had all 18 X-rays. And an 18 X-ray was somebody, I think the program started in about oh, three or so, where they were trying to bolster the special forces ranks. They wanted to add a battalion to each group. So they're like, we got to find some different folks. So we can't just lower the standards and let more people that are already in the army come to selection.

So let's open it up to the public. If they score high enough on a language aptitude test and ASVav and they got to pass their flight physical and all these things. So I was 23 when I joined and I barely shot a gun. I wasn't around that stuff, but I had some different life experiences. I went some different places and the world did some different things and they saw some value in that. So I get this 18x grade contract where you go to basic training, airborne school and then straight into special forces selection after that.

So I go to basic, and of the 200 people in my basic training battalion, 145 of us had this special forces contract. So it's all these people that are trying to make it, and all of a sudden you're thinking like, you know, what are the numbers, what are the odds of this group, and you kind of assess people. When you look at them and you're like,

well, that guy's definitely making it. And there's no way that guy's making it. And how many times I was wrong? Oh, sure. It was kind of crazy. You know, I mean, some of the guys I was right, but some of them, I was dead wrong. And it was like, you know, that whole judge,

I don't judge it. Booked by its cover like genuinely in this situation, there's something inside of certain people. And whether they ever access it or not, maybe they don't always, but this forced you to. If you really wanted to go there, you had to go to a different place a lot of times, mentally and emotionally and physically, really.

But it was just crazy to think that and see that. Because even me, when I showed up, I was really unhealthy before that. Like I just, since high school, I didn't play any sports, I didn't really do anything. The first PT test, I did 29 pushups in two minutes and 53 situps and ran two miles in like 1545 or something, not the standard. You are not going to make it. But in those 14 weeks of basic, I just committed myself even in basic to like, I'm just going

to do a little bit more than everybody else, you know, and then that just got it, I got addicted to it. And it just, you know, it's by the end of basic, or PT test, I did like 145 push-ups and 103 sit-ups and ran two miles and 11 minutes. Like a different person was there, all of a sudden, just 14 weeks, and then that just continued. And there was a certain number of us that just had that mentality and we kind of, you know, found each other and You know went through everything kind of together and kind of carried each other through it We can't see tomorrow But we can hear it Tomorrow sounds like hydrogen being added to natural gas to make it more

sustainable. It sounds like solar panels generating thousands of megawatts, and it sounds like carbon being captured and stored, keeping it out of our atmosphere. We've been bridging to a sustainable energy future for more than 20 years, because what we do today helps ensure tomorrow is on. Enbridge. Life takes energy. Ghosts aren't real. At least as a journalist, that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happen in my childhood bedroom.

But ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago, when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too. Including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. And it gets even stranger. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunted my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother. It was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face.

From Wondering and Pineapple Street Studios comes Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story on the Wondering app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes ad-free right now by joining Wondering Plus. It is funny, like, there's all these things I think, if you're just like a regular person, they seem like so simple that they can't possibly be true or they seem like cliche or like

you're just too cynical to be like, it's got to be more than that. But like, you know, the sort of the growth first, like the fixed mindset. Like if you're a person who can get better, you can get really good. And if you're a person who's like, I am what I am, you know, like that's sort of how you are. And it's weird how you see, you see them, you see it kind of play out that way. Like in like, and obviously in sports and not like, if you're the person who's just always getting better, like, there's really no ceiling on that. And if you're the person who like struggles with feedback, who thinks you know how to do shit, who doesn't like being yelled at, you're kind of stuck. And you can

watch the trajectories seem the same. And then one just deviates from the other really quickly. So I imagine even a lot of the recruiters are those people in the boot camps, I imagine they're always constantly, like they're like just surprised or they just have a lot of trust in the process for the people who follow it. Like the people who commit, like they know how transformative it can be for someone and the person who won't sort of submit to it

and turn themselves over to it, they're like, you might as well quit right now. Yeah, yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. And they've seen the process before a lot of those guys, so I imagine they're a little more, I don't know, I'm not gonna say open to it, but they're a little more patient with it and knowing that people will so everyone pretty much self-selects in life, you know? Like, yeah, you get maybe, maybe you got picked for the team, maybe you didn't.

But like, you're probably capable of next, you're making that team, if you're willing to commit the time and all that and really just, you know, put it in. And I mean, you see that with simple things in life, like, I don't know, I got weight loss, there's a big thing, right? And people really struggle with it.

And we're just so obsessed with immediate results that if I commit to it, I go to the gym, and I go all month, five days a week, and I'm doing all these things, and I gain two pounds, like, it doesn't work, and they just quit. And it's just like, dude, no, just stick, we just trust it, like look at everybody else that does that, it's going to happen.

It's just your body's maybe not quite sure what you're trying to do yet. And so it's like trying to figure out what's happening. And eventually it'll click and it'll go just stick with it. Just don't quit. It's so hard when you're young, I think, and when you're inexperienced. Because like people say, you know, trust the process. But if you've never experienced a process before, it's hard to trust in the thing. It just seems like somebody telling you some lie or something, you know, like they're

like, oh, go to the gym. You'll lose weight. And you're like, I went to the gym for a month. And it didn't work. Like when someone says, like, just, you know, just keep working on that manuscript. You're like, but I've been work, they've never gotten to the other side. So they don't know, right? But once you, I imagine for you, like, so you so you go to basic training, you're not in shape, 14 weeks later, you've made it through and your actually your gains are accelerating. Now when you go do other stuff that you've never done before,

whether it's professional football or college football, professional football, when it's directing a movie, you're like, I'm comfortable starting at zero, because I know how quickly, I know it's, you know it's possible to get from here to there. You've done it before. And if you don't quit, chances are that process will work for you again. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, we, we self-attrit, I don't know if it's a word, but we do, you

know, more than anything else. It's funny to use that because when I think about the movie thing, I had an interest in it and a passion for it since I was 19, but I didn't really, I mean, I came up to LA from San Diego at 19, took some acting classes, but I just mostly partied and, you know, I worked out jobs and four years later, I'm, you know, pretty depressed. And like, I don't feel purposeful and I'm not doing anything that, I feel like I make a difference in the world at all.

I feel like if I'm gone, I would be missed by my family, but the world would be just fine without me. So not until I was 34, I guess, finishing my master's degree in advertising, but I knew I wanted to work in film and had the opportunity to do an internship at Film 44, which is Peter Berg's production company out in LA.

So I went out there and I'm training for this NFL opportunity, but I'm making coffee and answering phones and like, I'm just an unpaid intern and I don't know anything about, and I'm just trying to learn as much as I can, I guess five years later is when I directed MVP, but through that five years, it wasn't just, it wasn't like MVP was the only thing going on, or I just wanted to make this movie,

or I wanna do a lot of things, but I did most jobs you can imagine on a set, aside from anything really technical, like I'm not a camera operator or anything like that. But just learning the whole ins and outs of the business from the development side, from like taking absolutely nothing to a finished product, like how that process, how that works and how that looks. And then just asking a ton of questions and getting feedback from people and not being

afraid to send somebody, my really shitty first draft and just let them tear it apart. But somebody that I trust and I know what they know what they're doing and all that stuff, you know, because that's just one of those things, but it was the same with football, it was the same with the military and you're right. If I didn't, I mean, it really started for me with probably basic training and that period of time where I went from A and I finished at D, but I did what they said and it worked. And then so when they're like, you're like, how do I become a college football player?

They're like, do this. And then you did that, you know, and then with football, it's like, then you went you intern and they're like, this is how this works. And you listen as opposed to what I think a lot of people do, which is they think they know, or they don't want to do the stuff that sucks or they don't think the other people know. Right.

They're like, you had a reason to trust the process and that you underwent a process and it was transformative. But I do feel like there's like some memo that you didn't get where the memo says like, you can do like one cool thing in your life. And you're like, you know what I mean? Like if someone was just a green beret, you're like, oh, that's cool, right? You're like green beret, then you played college football at a great school.

Then you're like, I'm going to play professional football. And then you're like, I'm going to write direct, and then you're like, I'm gonna write, direct, and star in a movie about my life, give or take. Like, each one of those things is like, years and years of work, and would be, if a person did just one of those things, you'd be like, wow, good for you. And you're just like, you're like, no, you can do this,

and then you can do this, and then you can do this. There's something very interesting about that to me. Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, I, I think, and I say this a lot to people and they're like, no, no, don't do that. Don't say that. But it's true for me. I think I maintain at least early on a little bit of myivity in certain things and I'm okay with that.

I don't read too much into how hard this thing is or the odds against you and all that because I'm like, well, what matters most is I'm passionate about it. I'm interested in it and I wanna do this and I'm literally dying and you talk about this. You know what I mean? I mean every second you're just dying.

Sure. So why not try? Why not try because I'm just gonna die and I'm gonna be six feet deep like everybody else and you know, to me like that, I don't know. That's just, that's enough for me. That's enough to not do something that I'm not interested in. And I understand it's very different.

I don't have a family. I don't have kids I have to look after. Like there's dynamics in life that adjusts us a bit. And we have to make some sacrifices. And I make my sacrifices in certain ways and I sacrifice other things that I do want. But I also am coming to this belief that you can do both. Like you can do both.

It may not be exactly how you mapped it. And it's probably not gonna be, because even the things that I've done, like I wasn't planning on being a long snapper, that's not a sexy position. I wanted to be a quarterback, like Joe Montana, or whatever. But I don't, there is a cap in certain ways, from a ability standpoint physically,

a lot of times that I had to accept, but there's not a cap on, I think, how mentally strong we can become, you know, and how that belief in ourselves, and then how we can still contribute to that thing that you love so much, you just got to find, for me, it's finding thankfulest jobs, you know, and that thing that people aren't willing to do, like, I'm willing to do anything. So, if you're not willing to do that, like, give that to me, I'll carry that thing, and to do. I'm willing to do anything. So if you're not willing to do that, give that to me. I'll carry that thing. And that's where I'm going to fit in.

I also think maybe the secret to all the things you managed to do is you did find, I wouldn't say it's an end run, but you found an unusual way into all of them. So even first off, you're just saying about how you got in the green brace. You had not the traditional way in, right? Like there was this unique circumstance

where they're trying to add people, you had a different contract than most people or it's you did that. And then yeah, you didn't go in football for, first off, if you're just a regular person in their late 20s trying to go to college and to make it on at UT, probably harder to do than if you have also been in an elite physical circumstances like you were in.

And then I imagine being of that, like people were willing to look at it differently, then maybe they would have just someone who's like, well, I spent the last eight years on the couch, right? But like, no, I got to try out, no doubt. I got to try out because of my background. But you are also trying out and you are willing to take a position for which I imagine there was

less competition than say quarterback. Right. And then when you when you made it in when you did this movie, it's not like you wrote this dark period drama or some like weird, you didn't make some, like you made a thing that there is an obvious market for, but not a lot of people can or want to speak to that market, right? And so that was also a way in that I imagine, again, if you had written and tried to sell a $200 million sci-fi epic as your first thing, people would

probably be like, what? You know, like come back when you've done something, right? And so, people who have done a lot of things are also, I find like Tim Ferriss is a good example of this. They're good at deconstructing the system and then very strategic about the way in, right? Like someone called this like finding the third door, right? Like they said, like, there's the front door of the nightclub, there's the back door of the nightclub, and then there's like the bathroom window. And you kind of find like the window in. Do you know what I mean? Like, what is a different way in that's

uniquely suited to my skills, my attributes, and by the way, most people are neglecting? Right. Yeah, I know that you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, with the long snapping thing with football, I mean, I honestly didn't even know what a long snapper was when I was going to go to try out for the team. But I knew, okay, looking at my size, my lack of physical ability speed, strength, all these things, which I worked on as best as I could. I got to the fastest and strongest that Nate could get, but that's still not that fast and strong as compared to these guys. So it was like, all right, it's gonna be,

I'm gonna, a safety or slot receiver, the only two positions that really make sense for my size and speed or whatever. So that's what I'm gonna try out as, and I ended up trying out as a safety, and I was on the scout team, I'm getting run over at practice every day, but I'm doing everything I can to prepare the team

for the game, this is my first year at Texas. And, you know, but I always bounce back up and I was always volunteering to be a part of any drill or whatever. And then, you know, I was able to be a backup on like the kickoff team or the punt block team, but I was still not, they're like, we can't actually trust that he's gonna do

as good of a job as this other guy, even though, you know, he might do all the right things at practice, he might be going as hard as a job as this other guy, even though he might do all the right things at practice, he might be going as hard as he can and trying his best. No one will out try Nate from a first time. Yeah, but this person's just better and we gotta play the better guy. But after that first year, it was like,

I was in the identifying stage. I was like, I have to get on the field. I wanna play so bad. I got to play, we were blowing somebody out on Veterans Day, so they put Nate in the game on kickoff coverage. No where near the tackle, but I go down there and this guy that's trying to block me, he kind of, I could feel his balance shifting.

He was a big guy and he was a little top heavy. And so I kind of like, you know, threw him. And it was, it was really just displacing his weight in a different direction. But, you know, the sideline went nuts. Like I said, the taco was 30 yards away. I was nowhere near the play. But I just was like, that feeling of like, oh my gosh.

I got to find a way. So then that's when I started long snapping. The starter that year and the backup were both seniors. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna give this two months and I'm just gonna do it every day. And if my body for whatever reason is not responding and I'm not going to do it every day. And if I'm, if my body for whatever reason is not responding, and I'm not, I'm not getting any better than whatever. But, you know, pretty quickly I started to somewhat get, I don't even know if I was getting the hang of it, but I was seeing a bit of results, just small results, but I was snapping a hundred

balls a day and just like obsessed with it. And all the ways I learned to shoot a pistol, which I didn't know how to do, from stance to grip, to, you know, front sight post, to trigger squeeze, all those things applied to standing over the ball and getting the right grip. And the aim point, aim small, miss small, and, you know, slowest smooth smooth as fast, all these things we learned as a military, they applied. And it just sort of, it's one of those few closed skills on a field where it's just like shooting a free throw. Yeah, the crowd may be different. It might be the first quarter versus two seconds left in the game. The situation's different, but it's 15 feet. It's the same shot. And it's the same with the long snap. It's 15 yards. It's the same target. It's the same guy standing

back there. You got to put it in his right pocket. Or if it's a field goal, it's like you got to put it right on the the holder's chin. And it's the same. And so if I could just focus there, then I could figure this out and it ended up working. Like being a quarterback, yeah, you probably do need 15 years of, on field, audible experience, like in the sense of,

totally throwing things, you need to have run through every kind of play in every situation because it's so, you need this intense intuition and sort of fingertip feel for the game and where it's going and what it means that you probably can't pick up in your 20s. But there are other things that are more sort of set skills or repetitive things

that yeah, maybe you can, if you have a transferable base of knowledge, it's like, like, Bellicicek isn't picking college basketball players and slotting them in his quarterback, but they could work potentially as a tight end because it's this one thing you're doing. And if you have all these other things, you can learn,

you can learn the last mile of it, but you can't learn the basic part. The fundamentals necessarily. Totally, no, and I think, maybe that's why ultra running's an old man's game a bit. I mean, maybe there's physical aspects to that too. And the body changes in different ways. Old man's strength is a thing in certain aspects

and certain movements. But also, like if you've endured some things in the past, I've never done 100 yet, but I went out and did 54 earlier this year. And before that, I did 31 the year before and I ran my first marathon a few weeks before that. And I'd never really done a distance thing, but I did long movements in the military. And I just knew, I know what that's like to want to quit.

Yeah, and that's really the main skill is like, can you conquer your ability to want to stop doing a thing? Right. The very human desire to stop doing this painful thing. Do you have that muscle? The muscle that says no, we're going to keep going. A centric isline is we treat the body rigorously so that it's not disobedient to the mind. And so if you have that muscle, the muscle that can get in a cold punch, the muscle that can push through, the muscle that can deal with people saying, you suck a lot until you don't suck, that's like the ultimate muscle. It's really crazy what these meat sacks are capable of. I mean, it really is. And it's controlled by this little thing up there, you know,

mind smaller than others. But, you know, it's wild just to, yeah, just that that, that this thing can do that, can just endure, and just keep going through all these pain. And I wonder, I always wonder, you probably know more about this than me, a lot more about this, but just like the way these, the synapses work and like the nerves and the pain that we feel, like how much of that is phantom. I mean, I talked to a lot of, a lot of guys I served with in the military, I talked to a lot of, a lot of guys I served with in the military, I've got to know through the veteran community that are missing

limbs, right? And it's like, phantom pain is a real thing. So it's like, how much of that is actually phantom pain, too? You know, when we're out there, yeah, I was like, no, I have my legs. And my legs hurt. Yeah. Really bad. Well, like, what percentage of that is this actual pain and what of it, what percentage of it is in our heads? Sure. feel different levels of that and they're doing the same thing and I don't know. It's super interesting to me Have you you know who Courtney do all there is? I do. I mean, I don't know. I've never met her I know exactly as she is no I interviewed her on the pocket She was talking about she calls it like the pain cave So she's like when it starts to hurt. I tell myself like I'm entering the pain cave and I wanna like see what's back there.

Right? So instead of going like my body's telling me this is painful stop, which is obviously why your body does it. But your body, it's like the check engine, or not the check, the gas light comes on way before the car is actually gonna run out of gas or else there's no purpose for the light, you know what I mean? And so if you can have this sort of almost

exploratory mindset of like, well, I want to know what's on the other side of this. I want to know how far back this goes. I want to know how far I can bend this thing before it breaks. Eventually it's dangerous here, but you do that's how you end up pushing those limits. And it's sort of self-actualizing. Like if you're like, no, this's dangerous here, but that's how you end up pushing those limits. And it's sort of self-actualizing. Like, if you're like, no, this is my limit, I can't go any further than that. That's like as far as you can go. But if you're like, I wonder how far I can go, you're probably going to go a little bit further.

And I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, I'm not quoting, but definitely going to reference a very cliche film in Fight Club. But that's seen with the lie on the hand in what I mean and that chemical burn and feeling that pain. And just like being with it and like sitting with it and working through it and not trying to run from it and not being afraid of it. It is definitely there's value in that. There's a lot of value in that and just understanding like, okay, well this is absolutely normal. I'm supposed to be feeling this because what I'm doing right now. And this is good because it means my body's operating properly and kind of having a different approach to that focus. But that's really interesting about the cave,

too. I hadn't heard that and hadn't thought of it in that way, but just wanting to really lean into that discomfort and pain more and be like, yeah, yeah, okay, let's see. If I push, maybe I push a little harder right now, even though I'm feeling more pain than I have, and that's the opposite of what we want to do. That's what the voice in our head is telling us to slow down or to stop. Emily, do you remember when One Direction called it a day? I think you'll find there are still many people who can't talk about it. Well, luckily, we can. A lot, because our new season of terribly famous is all about the first One Directioner to go

it alone. Zayn Malik. We'll take you on Zayn's journey from Shilad from Bradford to being in the world's biggest boy band and explore why, when he reached the top, he decided to walk away. Follow terribly famous wherever you get your podcasts. It's terribly famous.

We can't see tomorrow, but we can hear it. And it sounds like a wind farm powering homes across the country. We're bridging to a sustainable energy future, working today to ensure tomorrow is on, and bridge life takes energy. Well, most people are physically capable of running a marathon. It's not like this superhuman physically capable of running a marathon. Like it's not like this superhuman physical task, right? Like you have enough muscles, you have enough body fat, you know, like you can physically do the thing.

It's you just don't think you can do the thing and it's hard to do the thing. So you would stop at some point, right? And then later you'd be like, I feel like I could have kept going, right? And obviously this is one of the functions of training. You run five miles a lot of times, start with one mile and then you run five miles a lot of times,

then you run 10 miles, then you're pushing your training. So you get to the point where, you know, maybe you've never run the marathon before, you've never run 26 whatever miles before you've entered the race. But you know, on that race day, that you don't really need to be uncertain or question until you've gotten past the point of your furthest training. Do you know what I mean?

Like, can I do this? Is it relevant for the first 15 miles? If you've done 15 miles before, right? It's really the 10, at the end is really the only leap, you know? And so, like, if you've done hardship before and you've pushed through, if you've followed processes before,

then you know, like, okay, I'm doing this again. I'm not, I don't know for, like, to me, that's always a question. Like, how can you, how do you know you can do something you've never done before, right? That's like, you don't. You don't. But if you've done other hard shit, you know, hey, first off, I'm vaguely, I'm familiar with the general shape

of what it is to do hard things. And then you also know like, hey, I'm someone who doesn't quit, I'm someone who figure stuff out, I'm someone who asks questions, you know, and you have this, so you don't have certainty that you can do it, but you know you have the ingredients to do it if it is in fact possible to do. Right. And that's a big part of the allure for me is I don't know. I don't know if I can. Like the unknown, I love the unknown. Yeah. I don't know if I can. Like the unknown, I love the unknown.

Sure. It's so interesting. And if I've already done something, like I've already, I'm already thinking about this. If I'm able to complete, if I'm able to finish lead, Bill, and I get done, like I wonder if I'll have any desire to ever do that again. And not because it was a hundred miles and it's a lot of training and it's hard, but it's like, well, I know I can do that now. So we make a new reason. Then it's like, but it's like, well, I know I can do that now. So we make a new reason.

Then it's like, that's a place. What can I do a better time, you know? That's true. But it just knowing myself. It may be one time. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, that's something else I don't know. Yeah.

But, but yeah, I mean, that is that's such an, that's, that's so interesting to me. And I've thought about this a lot lately too, about why, because people ask me often, like, why are you so, whether it's the word is obsessed or interested or focused on like these challenges and doing these things that, like you said, maybe is a once in a lifetime thing for a lot of people, like that one thing. And I think, I think a lot of it comes from insecurity. Really? Yeah, I do. I just feel like of it comes from insecurity. Really?

I just feel like you have something to prove. Yeah, I guess so. And I don't know if that's to myself or to, there's not really a person that I can identify as like the person I'm trying to make me, you know, be proud of me or whatever. Did you feel like people were proud of you early in your life or no? I think sometimes, I mean, I think my, you early in your life or no. I think sometimes, I mean, I think my folks are both very smart, very accomplished people.

They've worked really hard. My mom got a PhD in a male dominated field, one of the first women, one who went to Cal Berkeley. My dad is a race horse veterinarian, and he got his veterinary degree at, there's a master's degree at university and C. And they're just very smart people. And so that's probably why I didn't go to college right away

because it was like, I gotta do it my way and I gotta find my own path and I didn't really work that hard in high school. But I also, yeah, there's nobody, at least in my life that I was more happy to see sitting in the stands at a game whether it was a little eager, whatever than my folks. You know, my parents, I wanted to make them proud, absolutely.

But yeah, I don't know if it's like approving something to them or if it's proven to something to 13-year-old Nate that just feels, you know, he's still in there. It's still me. It's the same guy. I mean, I get, you know, I get, I still have these fears, I'm not like, unafraid of all these things. I'm absolutely afraid of all these things, but that's why they're appealing to me. So I don't know, but I just, I still, I wonder

if that's it, because I think I'm, I'm secure in a lot of ways. And mostly like who I am, and what I believe, and I think my willingness to really listen to other people's perspective and way of doing things, and I'm very open to that, I like to learn and take everything into account. Like I love different, just different perspectives. But at the same time, I'm so obsessed, I guess, with finding this next thing, and I just want to go do this. And these things sort of come about. I never thought

when I was a kid that I'd be running 100 miles, and I never thought I was going to join the military, either though. It wasn't really something. The only thing that was a kid dream was professional sports, you know, playing football. Did you feel like when you did those things, did it feel good for a minute, or as your mind always on to the next one? No, it feels it feels it feels good for more than a minute. It definitely does. I mean, even the I got to play in one NFL game, you know, and I got cut. And it was it is what it is. I did everything I could on the field. I actually played well, but it was the next big round of cuts

in the preseason in 2015 and that was it. And it certainly wasn't like this. Oh, you know, that was cool and that was great, but what's next? It was, you know, I'd spent the next year trying to get another shot, you know, and I had a few teams interested, it didn't happen. And that was it.

But I still always think about that and grateful of that. And it's one of my proudest moments getting to play. But when I finish something, I think, I don't know, that's actually a really good question. I think sometimes maybe, yeah, sometimes I am sort of like thinking about what's next. I do struggle with enjoying these moments, enjoying life.

I have to constantly remind myself to look up if I'm going on a long run because I'm just like trying to do the best that I can and just push through things and I'm like focused down, like just one step, next step, next step, which helps me get to that place to actually enjoy what I'm doing and what I'm seeing and experiencing and the opportunity to do that and to try.

I miss out on that a lot, you know, I failed to do that. We might have overlapped very briefly when you were in Seattle. I went to one Seattle training camp, and I met with Coach Carol and John Snyder. I still remember if it was 2015 or 2016, I have to look it up. It was, yeah, I don't remember the season after, they lost the Super Bowl or the season after that. That's, yeah, that's when I was there. It's kind of funny.

One year after or two years after? One year after the year after, the year I went to Texas was the year after I lost Alabama One year after the year after the year I went to Texas, was the year after they lost Alabama and the National Championship. And the year I went to the Seahawks was the year after they lost to the Patriots and the Super Bowl. So, you know, and I did not fix what was broken. What had happened is the Patriots, someone at the Patriots had read the obstacles away. And then obviously there was that devastating loss.

And then he had recommended the book to someone in Seattle, to actually to John Snyder, who then read it. And then there was an article about it. And then I came out trying to think what I remember about that. But that Seattle actually has an interesting track record of finding sort of untraditional people or people that other teams passed on. They sort of have, he does a really good job with that. Pete and John are still great friends and not so grateful. I remember the day I got cut, John delivered the news. Usually they send down to somebody. He doesn't want to do it.

John was like, I'll go. So he was walking up to me and he had this face, like his puppy just died or something and he's just kind of like, and I'm like, it's all good man. I'm like consoling him for cutting me because he felt, he just was like, you know, I mean, you know, he probably wanted it to work. Yeah, I think they did. And, you know, and it's all good. I wasn't the best man for the job and I own that and it is what it is.

But yeah, something about they love they love to find guys with a chip on their shoulder and that's why I got a shot up there. And I had a call also from the St. Louis Rams that off season, right after the draft ended and I had to make a quick decision, Seahawks and Rams. And for me, I mean initially, the back-to-back super bowls,

that locker room, those personalities, and the players, I was already like, I want to go to Seattle. The Rams were four and 12, you know, it was just the different situation. But what really sealed the deal is when, you know, I had the opportunity to talk to, to Pete and John, and they both were like, look, man, it wasn't just like, hey, we just John and they both were like, look man, it wasn't just like, hey, we just love to have you up here, you know, like this make-a-wish moment. I didn't feel like that, you know. It really felt like, hey, you are a long shot man,

and it's gonna be really tough, but like we love guys with a chip on their shoulder and your story and what you've overcome and you know, the fact that, I mean, you started it three years, for three years at Texas, that's not a bad school. You made it happen and you're good at what you do, but you gotta get bigger, you gotta get stronger,

you gotta get better, but we wanna give you a shot. And that was like, that just spoke to me so much more than anything, and I was like, yeah, this is like a real thing. I actually, I asked John, I was like, as a GM, what do you look for in players? And he said, one of the things he looks for, obviously, you look for all the obvious things. And then he was like, but I also look for people

who have been through something. It's like, they got an injury or they got arrested or like, he was like, they did something and it set them back and then they got through it because he's like, especially in like rookies, right? So, you know, the trajectory of a rookie is that you were great, probably one of the best at what you did or you wouldn't have made it into the NFL

and then you're not good comparatively, right? Like you get introduced to this very steep learning curve. For the first time in your life, you're not good comparatively, right? Right. You get introduced to this very steep learning curve. For the first time in your life, you're not the big man on campus. Yeah, so how have you adjusted to similar learning curves in your life, right? Where, yeah, you, you, you, your freshman year, you didn't, you didn't start, right?

And you fought back and you're soft when you, you got to start, right? And you fought back and you're soft when you got to start, right? Or yeah, you lost someone or you messed something up and now you had this huge deficit to overcome. And were you hungry enough and hard working enough and could you correct course to do that? Like that's a set of skills that don't show up on a stat sheet, but are ultimately gonna be super, super important if you wanna be great at this thing. So So imagine part of what they liked in your story.

It's just like, look, if anyone has the capacity to figure it out and to make it work, it's this dude who's been through like real shit. Right. And they developed these guys too. I mean, like, Geno Smith now, the new quarterback out there. I mean, he's been the, like, 10, 10, 11 years, something like that. They never quit. No, never quit. And he was great in college. He kicked our ass in college. When he played for West Virginia, he came here to UT to Austin. And it was a hell of a game. It was a shootout, but he played out of his mind and they won. And then he goes, he NFL and he started for a bit, I think, with the jets, but then benched and then looked like a career back up. And then all of a sudden, this opportunity,

and I think you're absolutely right, like they gave him, they knew the talent was there. But it was like, well, this guy has, he did not quit. He's just hung in there for all these years. Let's just see what he can do. And then boom, I mean, they didn't even miss a step after losing Russell Wilson, one of the greatest to ever play in Seattle.

And you know, a lot of people are picking them to go right back to the playoffs and who knows? I mean, it's pretty wild to see that. And I got a lot of, and a few guys I played with that have spent time up in Seattle and it's just different up there compared to a lot of places. And I can't, I was, that's the only locker room I've been in.

I've had the chance to be around some teams and get to know some of the players, but it is different. I think it's Pete's mentality. He's one of these guys. He was with the Jets and the Pats and he struggled in a man and didn't do well and went back to college, rethought how am I doing things? Who am I as a person?

How do I approach coaching and building this culture? Like, what am I actually doing? And what can I do different? And then obviously one, almost three straight national championships, sorry about that. I wasn't on the team, but that's incredible. And then goes to Seattle and goes and wins a Super Bowl. And just completely different.

So he's one of these people that bounced back in that way. Yeah, I'm always in awe of coaches or you meet high ranking people and stuff and you go like, it took you, you were in your mid 40s when you finally got like your first real shot. You know what I mean? How long, I wrote my first book when I was 25.

So I have, and that seems like a long time for me. Like that was like years and years of writing and you know, in now working before I get my first shot. But it's very different when someone's like, you had to be an assistant coach for 30 years before you get your first, you know. The system's a little different now, but I'm always impressed by people who they were able

to hang on for so long, just that sort of like grit and determination before you get your shot. Yeah. That patience is crazy. It is crazy. It is crazy. You love to see it when it's rewarded and you hear those stories and you see how much it means to that person. You're just happy that that worked out for that individual because a lot of us know what that feels like, not all of us, you know, all of us were willing to do that. But those that are lot of us know what that feels like. Not all of us, you know, all of us were willing to do that, but those that are, like we know what that feels like.

And even if it's never happened for us yet, and that thing that we love, we know that it's still possible, and we're just gonna do it till we die, you know, and just try. And that's enough for me in a lot of ways too. Like it's plenty of things that just aren't gonna work out. And that's okay, but as long as I,

if I actually wanna do that thing and I'm still passionate about it, I can't stop doing it, I have to. So you can't kill me. Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, it's an interesting culture they have there. My favorite p-carole thing is like one year he, he did a film session of the coaches.

Like he forced the coaches to watch film of themselves on the sideline. Because you think about the culture of sports is this relentless breaking down and criticism every week of what you fucked up the previous week, right? And this frame by frame, you could have done this, you were supposed to do this. And players obviously get better from that,

but it's like a grueling relentless process where you never really get to, you're supposed to do this. And players obviously get better from that, but it's like a grueling, relentless process where you never really get to, you're not sitting around going, it's so awesome to be in the NFL. You're like week to week like, like just being broken down and rebuilt every time. But the coaches are typically above that, right? And the coaches don't have to watch. Look at you, look, you're yelling at this person and look at their reaction, like look at how it's doing the opposite of what you wanted to do.

So I always think about that. How are you actually getting feedback for what you do? Do you think feedback is for everyone but you? Right. Well, I noticed this in Seattle when I was up there and I think it's something that he probably preaches to his assistance and the whole staff was like, there wasn't really negative yelling. There's yelling for sure.

But if somebody's screwing up, they either know already, or if they don't, I think there's more value in taking them to the side and say, hey, look, if you don't fix this thing, you're either gonna get cut or you're just not going to play. And it's that simple.

And it's like, I don't need to embarrass you in front of everybody else. I don't need to make this, you know, a thing like you know. But it's that simple. You have to make a change and produce those results. And people respond to that. When they're treated with that type of respect, instead of dog cussed all the time. And they respond, especially at that level, like they're getting paid a good salary, you know, at that point in their life, they're men, you know what I mean? They are grown-ups. And so, they want to be treated as such. And I think that,

yeah, there's certainly a time for that at a certain age that I think there's value as well. Sure. Like I, and in the military, and oftentimes basic trainings, the height of that. And of course, the average person basic trainings 19 years old, I was archaic for basic training, and I was 23. So, yeah, I mean, I think that that there's something there that maybe, I don't know how much that's been adopted by other teams and stuff like that, but it's something that I just noticed right away. I was like, man, this is just, it's not like a chill environment. Everything is super competitive. He's all about competing, but at the same time, there should be fun. We should be enjoying every day we're out here. Well, Pete Carroll's coaching philosophy is built around the assumption

that confidence is incredibly important, right? That if you don't think you can do something, you're not going to be able to do it, right? And so I think he said, like, why would you ever do anything that destroys a person's confidence? And so it's not that you don't correct people, it's not you don't hold them accountable, but sort of yelling and berating them because you don't have self-control. It's not actually getting you or them closer to what you want them to be. It's almost certainly getting them the other direction. I think there's kind of a reckoning going on about that in sports. There's not really any evidence that screaming at people makes them better at what they do,

but that's how everyone's coached them. And so it kind of becomes this cycle of trauma almost. And I think you're starting to see the best coaches not do that. Like I mean, if you work at Google, your boss doesn't scream at you. And there's a lead performance there. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not how you get the best out of a musician or a best out of, you know, a hedge fund trade. Like, that's actually not how you get the best out of a musician or a best out of a hedge fund trade. That's actually not how you do it.

Just in sports, probably because it sort of fancies itself being closer to military culture, maybe it thinks they can get away with it, but I think you don't see Steve Kerr screwing in anyone's face, maybe a ref, but that's not how it treats the athletes. Well, the ref's not on your team. You know what I mean? Screaming at the other treats the athletes, right? Well, the rest not on your team. You know what I mean?

Like screaming at the other people is different, right? It's like, but like you're on the same team. Why would that, I think that's B. Carroll's point. You want them to be confident. The kicker misses this field goal. You scream at them. Does that make them more or less likely to hit that shot next time?

Probably less likely, because now they're in their head about it. And kickers are already so far in their head about everything, they're hilarious. Yeah. I mean, the one, the most elite one right now is a longhorn, but Justin Tucker, talk about confidence. It's just, that guy is one of the most confident players in the league at any position.

He just knows when he goes out there, he's gonna make it. He just knows, and he knows he's gonna hit it pure, and he knows whatever little things he needs to focus on. And, you know, it's, I remember seeing that in college, and he wasn't even nearly as good as he is now in college. And he was still very good, but just like another level of, he just hit another switch of belief in himself. And it's a lot of it is the work he put in.

He worked really, really hard. You know, and it's interesting. That's like the only position you can get the yips in football. Like a quarterback never gets it. I've never heard of a quarterback. Yeah, I mean, they slump, but yeah, you're right. I mean, all of a sudden, they just can't hit a pass. Yes, you know, that's just,

that's sad everybody's feet all the time, but no, the kicker, yeah, it is wild. I think, uh... Because I think it's the only repetitive motion if you think about it. Like every play in football is different. I think, uh, because I think it's the only repetitive motion if you think about it. Like every play in football is different. And long snapping. Yes.

I'm sure, yeah. But you can't talk about all the kicking, all the kicking related positions. Right, right. Because it's true. Yeah, it's very, for the most part, it's a close skill as well. You know, I mean, maybe the holds a little bit different,

but by and large, it's the same. You're planting the same spot and you're swinging the leg the same way. And there's only 100 places you can do it from. And you sit, and you sit on the sideline for 30, 45 minutes at a time, occasionally, without getting to do your thing. And then you have to go out there and just all of a sudden

be perfect and kick at 66 yards like J-Tech. And that's crazy. Oh, it's crazy. And you have to completely wipe the slate clean, whether you hit it last time or didn't hit it last time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's the other thing that fire and forget. I mean, you see that in golf,

but you see that in a lot of things in life. I think that's a very much a life thing. Like, just, even if it was a good shot, dumping that, you know. It's almost more important. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, because you get complacent quick. Yeah.

You know, if you start something like, oh, I just crushed that last one, I'm fine. I got this and then I'm gonna sudden go sideways. Right, because when you say I got this, that's the moment you abandon the process or the, the, the, the humility of it. Like I was read, the boxer Floyd Patterson, he was talking about, he's like,

the fight that he loses, the title too, he was like, I wasn't afraid. He was like, I knew there's something wrong as I wasn't afraid. Cause I got this, like I'm the best, and that's when they get you. Yeah. And so there is, that's the so that's what keeps it exciting, but also sort of makes it hard to enjoy, is that

you never actually get to feel like you've made it. Because you're doing it every time. You know what I mean? In writing the rule is your last book doesn't write your next one. You finish it. It doesn't matter if it sells a million copies, it sells 10 copies. You're still starting blank page next one.

So if you go, I got it. The one hand you have to believe I can do this, and you know that you can do it because you just did it. But you also know that that belief doesn't get you anything. You still have to do it from scratch over again. We're like a comedian, right? You do the hour special and then all that material is now dated.

And you have to build a new hour totally from scratch. So you gotta believe you can do it and then you also gotta be willing to do the work and not cut the corners. So you build a new set. Think for me too, the fear aspect, if I'm not, if I don't have fear anymore, if I'm not afraid of it,

then it probably doesn't mean that much to me anymore. Sure, at least for me. It's a sign. And that's something that doesn't mean I need to just abandon it, but figuring out why I'm feeling that way or why I don't really care about this deal. Because that's when I get easily get lazy

and I'm not performing because I don't have, like, my senses aren't all switched on, you know what I mean? My hyper-awareness, like, it's just not there. What also means you're probably not lifting a challenging enough weight with how you're doing it, right? So, like, if you're doing the same thing you've done many times, it's not, you're like, I got this because you've literally done this exact same thing. But if you're trying to do, you know, faster time or at a higher level or, you know, you're trying to kick a further distance, like if there's something inherently new about it, you're going to be, I think, more alive to it, but then also a little afraid of it because like you said, like the answer is uncertain because you haven't done it before, so you don't know.

Maybe, but the maybe is what keeps it interesting. Maybe. That's an answer. That's one of my common answers to a lot of questions, you know? Maybe. Yeah, I think so. Maybe. And part of it's like,

you're part of it even when I feel super confident, like it's keeping myself, I think, a bit humble in the situation, you know, to understand that, yeah, you've done this before, but like maybe you won't, maybe you won't do it again, or as well, or maybe. Maybe. Have you seen that movie, The Disaster Artist? Yeah, about, you know, the room was like the way.

I doubt that guy ever doubted himself. Like the guy that made the worst movie ever, what I would make up about that character from when I've read about him and seen is like, his superpower slash kryptonite is that he is not aware of how awful he is, right? Like how fundamentally untalented, unappealing, and, you know, like, not good, he is. And so I mean, a more self-aware person would have not pulled off what he pulled off because

they would have quit, right? So he gets through it and he gets himself in positions. I mean, they're not making a movie about my life, right? So he gets through it and he gets himself in positions. I mean, they're not making a movie about my life, right? So he gets himself into cool positions. But at the same time, he's making shitty stuff because he has no actual ability to step outside himself or to see this thing as hard or difficult or, you know, like requiring something that maybe he doesn't have that maybe, like maybe. That maybe, I shouldn't be doing this. That's what keeps it interesting, but also makes it good. What for you, what at a young age grabbed at you?

To get you into this world, into writing, and into just this curiosity that you have? I mean, I loved books, but it took me a while to actually get that people made that it was like a thing you could do. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just thought, it's like, obviously, you know people play professional sports,

but you're not like, you get actually like 10, you're not like, that's me, you know, because you see, you don't see yourself in that, or if you do, that's because you're meant to, you're not like, that's me, you know, because you see yourself in that, or if you do, that's because you're meant to do it or what. But I think for me, it was this, the moment was like seeing, I remember I had this college professor named Susan Strait and I freshman year of college,

they assigned her a novel and we all had to read it. And then she like talked to this seminar. And like this is like, oh, this was the, I mean, it's all the book and it's like, I don't know, Ward stamp on the front and it's sold, and then she was just like in the room, you know? And I was just like, oh, she's just like a person. You know what I mean?

She's not like, I mean, even that writers didn't live in New York City and live these sort, like she's, here she is, as I went to Riverside, she's at this just regular person professor of Riverside and she's right, she's from Riverside, she's writing about her experiences. I think that was one of a series of kind of peaks behind the curtain that you're like, it's not that it was attainable, but that it was concrete and real. And then I was a research assistant for this guy, Robert Green, who had the 48 lots of power

and all these amazing books. And he showed me how books were made, because as his assistant, I'm doing all, but I was like, oh, this is just a process. This is like a thing that you do. It's probably like when you're in an intern work on those movies, you saw how a thing that you do. It's probably like when you were an intern working on those movies, you saw how a thing goes from a script to a movie or watching in the theaters. And it demystifies it. It doesn't let you know that it's easy.

Right, right. But you see that it is a series of hard things to pull off. But like, if you can learn how to do all those individual things, then maybe you can pull it off. Right. That's interesting. Yeah, I just often wonder that with creatives and people that are successful creatives and people that, you know, and creatives as a loose term, it doesn't just mean actors, writers,

entertainers or whatever. There's just people that make stuff. And what triggered them, but yeah, where did they get that belief that they could do it? Because I think, I talked about the insecurity thing earlier, but I think most people that competed at a high level do have a decent amount of insecurity somewhere. Sure. And not that they struggle with it, but

they embrace it and they recognize it maybe. Maybe they don't even talk about it, but they know. And it's like, that's what makes us get up a little bit earlier and start a little bit, whatever. Just pour ourselves into it, at least with me, because I don't want to feel that way anymore. I want to find out why, what is so amazing about this that I am, that I am mystified, like, you know, that, and then as you dig into it and learn about it and whether it was my time in the Special Forces or in football or whatever, it's not that it was easy, but it was simpler than I thought. You know, it was simpler if it's broken down into these pieces, it's like, okay,

it's certainly not easy to do. And most people will never try, but it is just like this other thing, you know. And I think about things that I have no knowledge of at all from a technicality standpoint, you know, and I think of technology generally. Like I'm not savvy when it comes to that, but I do think that if I,

all of a sudden had a great interest in that, that, you know, maybe I could learn, it might take me a little bit longer, I'm not a smart-skinned world and, you know, all that, but like, I could do that thing. I think I could, you know. Well, the important skills are less related to the technical specifics of the thing and more

about like, can you learn, can you ask questions? Are you good at forming relationships? You know, do you believe your own bullshit? You know, some of you don't want to do, you know, like it's all these other things and that are that are the real killers. And so if you can kind of conquer those first, then all that's left is the actual skill acquisition, which isn't easy, and it's not a guarantee. But yeah, I think that's easy. You mentioned listening, like that's a lost art in art. That's something that I think just, I don't know why we struggle so much with it. I don't know if it's because attention spans a lower, because of the world we live in now with technology. I don't know, but it's, and I don't like sounding

or feeling like this old chroma, and that's just like, no one knows how to listen anymore. But yeah, it's just, it's kind of wild to just, because not everybody's like that, certainly, but yeah, it's just, it's kind of wild to just, cause not everybody's like that, certainly, but it feels like a large population people really are and they don't even wanna hear somebody else's perspective or point of view or why they feel the way that they feel,

like, you know, they always ask that, or they used to ask that question when you're younger, like if you could sit down with anybody in history and have a conversation, like most of the people I would wanna sit down with are history's greatest villains. And not because I'm attracted to what they, you know, did, it's horrible stuff. But I want to try to understand like, where did this come from? And like, why? How did you get to this place where you felt like this was the best thing for society, you know what I mean, or for your community or whatever,

like where did that come from? Because I'm curious. It's wild. So the founder of Stoicism, his line was two years, one mouth for a reason. You know that you should basically listen more than you talk with respect that ratio. And then the other line for the Stoics is like,

conceit is the impediment to knowledge or you can't learn that what you think you already know. So it's like listening to me is this inherently humble thing of like, I don't know, I wanna learn better. You tell me as opposed to, let me tell you. And so the willingness to go, I wanna go talk to someone who's really good at this thing and learn everything I can from them as opposed to, I'll go figure it out by myself.

You know, like, why would you learn by experience when you can learn from the experiences of others? And that's really the impediment of ego is that it, it, it just forces you to do stuff on your own or the hard way when like somebody could tell you exactly how to do the thing that you want to do stuff on your own or the hard way, when somebody could tell you exactly how to do the thing that you want to do. They're dying for someone to ask them. You know, like, what's the secret? Like, they're dying and nobody does.

Right. Right. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic early and add-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.

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