The Daily Stoic - O.A.R.'s Benj Gershman on Turning Obstacles Into Opportunities

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

When we tie our identity to what we do rather than who we truly are, losing that sense of self can be devastating. Benj Gershman, bassist for the rock band O.A.R., experienced this firsthand���and it led him to Stoicism.In this conversation, Benj opens up to Ryan about the mental and physical toll of life on the road, lessons learned from O.A.R.'s 30 years together, and how The Obstacle is the Way transformed his mindset during the darkest chapter of his life.You can follow Benj on Instagram @BenjGershman and OAR @OfARevolution Check out Benj’s podcast all about mental health support called What Could Be Bad  📕 Get a signed, numbered first-edition of the 10th Anniversary Edition of The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday at dailystoic.com/obstacle🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. So for this tour I was just doing in Europe, we had I think four days in London and I was with my kids, my wife and my in-laws. So we knew we didn't want to stay in a hotel. We'd spend a fortune. We'd be cramped. So we booked an Airbnb and it was awesome. As it happens, the Airbnb we stayed in was like this super historic building. I think it was where like the first meeting of the Red Cross or the Salvation Army ever was. It was awesome. That's why I love staying in Airbnbs.

To stay in a cool place, you get a sense of what the place is actually like. You're coming home to your house, not to the lobby of a hotel every night. It just made it easier to coordinate everything and get a sense of what the city is like. When I spent last summer in LA, we used an Airbnb also. So you may have read something that I wrote while staying in an Airbnb. Airbnb has the flexibility in size and location that work for your family and you can always find awesome stuff. You click on guest favorites to narrow your search down. Travel is always stressful. It's always hard to be away from home, but if you're gonna do it, do it right. And that's why you should check out Airbnb.

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["The Daily Stoic"] Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well known and obscure, fascinating and powerful.

With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. I'm gonna take you way back, 2002, 2003, I don't know. But I was on AOL Instant Messenger. One of my friends, it would have been Jack or Chris Riley. I just saw Christopher when I was in Rotterdam to do my talk, he came out. He's a physicist who lives in Switzerland now.

But growing up in Sacramento, California, I loved music. I played the guitar. And one day I'm chatting with my friends who went to different schools. And he's like, you gotta hear this. He sends me this song, which he had obviously just downloaded from Napster or Morpheus or LimeWire, maybe AudioGalaxy, I forget.

I just remember in high school and college, it was just this unending parade of file sharing services that would last for a couple months or a year and then get shut down. Anyways, he sent me this song. It was called Crazy Game of Poker by OAR. And it was a weird, unusual song. I never really got that into jam bands,

but I liked this band and they had a bunch of good songs and I was really into them. You know, every once in a while they'll come on my Spotify playlist or they'll come on something if I'm listening to music, my big folder of stuff. So it was crazy when my podcast producer sent me a note that this guy named Ben Gershman,

the name didn't ring a bell, but she was like, he's the bassist in this band OAR, maybe you've heard of him? And I was like, oh my God, I haven't heard that name in years. And he had come to the obstacle is the way in this dark, deep time in his life. And the crazy thing for me,

we talk about this in the episode, he's not that much older than me. They were like basically in high school or right out of high school when this band was blowing up and they've been in this band now for like 30 years. So it was really cool to have him on the podcast. And I'm gonna tell you something even crazier about it. When I was in college, so I'm not just,

oh yeah, I heard this band, I'm playing up the story. When I was in college, the first writing I ever did that I was ever published and I was ever paid for was for the college newspaper. And eventually they ended up giving me this column where I would write about tech things. And I was like, what am I gonna call it? Is this sort of, this is the era of web 2.0,

sort of an internet revolution. And I titled my column of a revolution. I didn't do the acronym, but I borrowed that from the name. That's what OAR stands for. So today's guest and I go way back, although we just met and I think you're really gonna like it. We talked about a bunch of things,

talked about being a dad, talked about touring, talked about how the Stoics can help us as artists, as human beings, how the constraints of life and music, something that clean these talk about can inform a writing. And then to bring this full circle and just a mind blowing thing. After we finished recording, we said our goodbyes, Benj walked to the back behind the bookstore and got an Amor Fati tattoo from the new tattoo parlor that opened up right behind us. Benj has an awesome podcast you can listen to.

It's on mental health and support called What Could Be Bad. If you haven't listened to Of A Revolution, you absolutely should. You can follow him on Instagram, at Benj Gershman. You can follow or at Of A Revolution on all the different platforms. I think you're really gonna like this episode. But he went through some dark times,

thought he maybe was never gonna play music again and stoicism like maybe it's been for you as it's been for me in many ways, it's kind of guiding light, guiding force. And I think this makes this a very special conversation. Let's get into it. ["Spring Day"] So I feel like having you on is my way of making amends for having pirated so much of

your music while I was in high school. Oh, well, I should say thank you for doing that because we're like the opposite of the Metallica thing where it actually helped us launch our career. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's funny because you had some songs later that blew up like on on radio, and streamed like large numbers. But I don't know how the early stuff, I would have found it any other way.

Like there was no, what other medium would one have discovered the music? I mean, cassette tapes or maybe some CDs. I mean, we started selling cassette tapes out of our backpacks. And we fortunately were around when Napster was blowing up and we're high school kids going into college. We had this program where people would basically

purchase a case of 30 CDs for a discount, get to make whatever profit they wanted. Reselling them? Yep. And so then it was right when Napster was happening. And so these are friends of ours from high school. We grew up in a relatively affluent area. People were going all over the United States

and bringing it with them. And so then if you can imagine all those little fireworks in the different college towns happening and then that spreading out from there is really what got us moving around the country. I mean, I remember I was a freshman at Ohio State and I was getting flown to Arizona for shows and it was just crazy.

But I mean, even like buying a bootleg or whatever, you're not gonna buy it unless you've heard it somewhere. Right? And so they weren't like, how long is crazy game of poker? It's like an eight minute song or something, right? Yeah, well, one of the versions. And I think there's some that are probably over 10 minutes. That was never gonna be on the radio.

Never. That was never gonna be a music video. Never. That was never gonna be a music video. Exactly. And so if it wasn't, like I think about this with books all the time, like what you're asking someone to do to check out a book is kind of insane. You're like, it's $28 as a hardcover

and you have to read, which is like not easy for people and it takes a long time. So like how do people find it? And it's not like there's radio for books or you hear it in the car driving by, you go, what's that? Or you hear it in a story, you're like, what's that? The mechanism of discovery is the main impediment

for so many different things, whether you're making something or you're doing art and so there was that period Yeah, where I guess piracy was kind of the only way that you would you could reduce the discovery costs and get scale of Things that were not necessarily super mainstream totally and I think the catalyst the connective tissue of that is really the human connection Yeah, it's like somebody telling you you should download this or somebody giving you that heads up is actually the inspiration. Let me send this to you on AOL and some messenger or whatever.

Yeah, totally. That's basically the world back then. And then it slowly crept into a MySpace thing, and then Facebook came around, and it was just all these new mediums of passing digital sound to people, or digital anything. Well, what's weird is I vividly remember you not being new.

Right? Yeah. I was in high school, I guess what, 2001 to 2005, but it's crazy to me, I was reading about it, it's like, yeah, you weren't new, but that was forever ago. I have a hard time even saying it out loud. I was talking to a friend about it because we're coming up on 30 years as a band and even longer that like our drummer and singer,

Chris and Mark, they've known each other since they were born, their parents were friends. So, you know, my next door neighbor was Mark's first cousin. So like we've known each other for a really long time in life. And it's just, you know, it's not the norm for bands. I mean, usually bands are breaking up

after a few years or something like that. So we've been, we recognize that it's good fortune that this has worked out, but the amount of time that we've been able to be a band, but also, you know, learn through that to take that experience and impact communities as we go. You know, we really take it to heart that we have an opportunity to, you opportunity to send a good message out there

besides just the music, but do things through the music. I remember there was some software very briefly when I was in college, and it was this thing where if you were on the dorms internet, and someone else was on the dorms, like that everyone who was on the dorms internet that had iTunes, you could just take any of their music. Like if you use this thing.

Yeah, we just put all, everyone who was on- Like a shared library. Yeah, it was just like a shared library of every, and so you think about these people come from all over the country, go to this place, and they're all living together. And music is like the thing that you're into at that time. Yeah, it was like, you could just take

from anyone's library anytime. I still have some of those songs. Yeah, how do you listen to your music? Mostly Spotify, I think, because even though I have it, it's like, at this point, I've stopped taking it. Like I just got a new phone. I'm not gonna find all my music and put it on the device because like, I can just get it. And and weirdly I know that since I already paid for it or didn't pay for it that when I'm streaming it

At least it benefits the artist in some infinitesimal way. In fact as well as the actual word. Yeah, it's very small But but I mean Yeah, like listening to the song that I bought eight years ago doesn't help anyone. So now I think I mostly just stream. Yeah, and Spotify serves the purpose in the sense of it's connecting you with the music, it's connecting you with the artists. I don't think it's like a very viable long-term solution for artists to maintain careers.

No. However, it's like, it's an amazing thing that we have access to the world history of music at the touch of a button. And I'd probably rather have the memory of my phone filled up with pictures of my family, my dog and my band, than like a bunch of songs that I could just stream

or download temporarily. Well, yeah, and then it's like some file naming system from 2003 is like still in there. You know, it's like all confusing. And then just stupid stuff I downloaded that I thought was funny. And then it just comes on, I'm like in the middle of a run. And it's like, is this a Budweiser commercial?

Like, why did I download that? You know, or Cherokee Boys or something. Weird, hilarious things on there. Yeah, I remember that, that like whole, like the Napster thing for me was a trip because I remember we were getting interviewed about it and like, isn't this like hurting you? Isn't this a bad thing?

We're like, we love it. Like this is great. Well, when you have nothing, there's nothing. You can see why in retrospect, Metallica then, one of the biggest bands in the world was upset about it. Yes. If Napster had come around 20 years earlier, they would have had a different relationship to it

because they were a band that grew also through mix tapes and bootlegs. Ironically, they were still selling out huge stadiums and things like that. But I certainly understand the point that it's a loss of revenue and that it's not how the industry had been for so many years.

But that also, I think, makes you work a little harder to carve out your niche. And at least for us in the live arena, it was the idea of like, we need to be better performers so people will want to come see a show because that's the like really the only place left to make enough dollars to sustain a career. So that's how we looked at like, you know,

we need to cut our teeth on that and make a career out of it. Well, and also I do find on Spotify, like I hear about live shows that I would, unless I'm gonna subscribe to like some Ticketmaster email, I'm not gonna know they're around, or if I happen to be driving by the venue, which is a sign flashes that they're coming to town.

Like that's how I hear people are in town. That's cool We're on tour because it says it at the top of the thing. If you're listening to the artists, it'll say or like their algorithm will bring artists that you probably like because of that. Yeah, I enjoy that too. I've actually caught a couple bands because of that in my area. I live in the California, like San Diego.

Yeah, and Sanitas. And it's like, there's not a ton of shows that go through there. So anywhere I can get a heads up about it, I get that heads up. We also will like, if we really want music, we find it. Like, you know, if you're a passionate person about tunes, like you're gonna find new songs,

or you're gonna ask the people you've always asked, what are you listening to? What are you into? But that is interesting. So, you know, basically from the jump, the recording of music was not gonna be your main form of revenue as a band. I don't think we knew that.

I think we had to figure that out because when you start doing it, it was also, we were like, we were just performing for friends at parties, at local cafes that would like, there's some really terrible stories of selling alcohol to minors, like our high school buddies and all that.

But that's how we built. And then we started realizing, like we can't just go into a studio and record a live track and expect that to stand up on the radio. So we began working with professionals who guided us through that. And like, I can still remember

how difficult the process was the first time when we had Pro Tools and there's a click track. And God bless our drummer, Chris, for dealing with that because it was totally out of our wheelhouse. But now he's made it an art for himself to be, to practice at and to work at. So we can do that.

We learned that the revenue from that as a business isn't necessarily gonna sustain us. However, it's a vehicle where you can then, if you get the songs out there, like we had a, we worked on a song called Shattered for a while with a guy named Matt Wallace, and we had some help with the mixing. Rob Cavallo worked with that,

and Mark wrote a tremendous song in that. And when that got going, we saw how that translated to the live environment. So we began to retune our thoughts of like, maybe we should be trying to create music that can live in that world that will bring people to the shows and then we can hopefully make fans like we have that are coming back 20 years later,

now with like children of theirs, which is really beautiful, like to see families enjoying our music together. And that goes for generations up and down of a friend out in Colorado who brought his 94-year-old, his mother, and she said it was the best concert she's ever seen. And after that many years, that's a real compliment. Hopefully, yeah.

No, I'm just thinking that it forces you, when you know that, you know, sort of recorded music, the old record business is not gonna be what it was for you, it forces you to become a really good live act because you know that's ultimately where, that's where the funnel is leading. Like, that's ultimately where you're collecting the money that you've earned on the music

that people have found through a variety of means, most of which probably not paid. Yeah, there's that. And then there's also that like the connection with people in that environment is a lot more intimate and personal. And what we always have wanted to do is make people feel better. Like Mark always says, we want people feeling better when they leave than they felt when they got there,

which is the general vibe of an OAR concert. And for us, like that really was a special thing to see like happening. And so knowing that if we could keep having that conversation with each other, where we actually like, you know, fine tuned it and could read each other's thoughts almost and know how somebody is gonna play,

the show gets tighter and it gets stronger. And then that message is new every time. So we've managed somehow to keep it fresh at most of the shows over these years. But that must be weird. How does it feel playing a song that you wrote in middle school or high school? Or, you know, like you've been playing

some of the same songs for 30 years. Yeah. How does that feel? Great. Yeah? Yeah, I love it. I mean, we're playing music that we created. Yeah.

You know, it's like, do you still enjoy, you know, sharing passages from some of the books that, you know, you wrote a while ago, maybe? Well, I just, it's like, do you still enjoy, you know, sharing passages from some of the books that you know, you wrote a while ago, maybe? Well, I just, in this room, I just had to re-record the audiobook of The Obstacle is the Way. Oh, cool. And it was an excruciating experience.

Oh, well in that case. No, no, that's why I'm curious what it feels to you, because obviously I like the book, I think it stands up well, but there is something awkward about seeing the earnestness of your younger self and the limitations that you clearly had and the way that you would do it differently now. Yeah, well, in that case, we don't play the songs

the exact same way. Like there's verse chorus, verse chorus, whatever, that stuff, but like we have adapted versions, we changed tempos, we have different sections that will go into musical parts, we changed tempos, we have different sections that will go into musical parts, we changed solos, everybody's reacting to each other live. Also, there's things that we'll do ahead of time, like segues from song to song, we'll write new parts.

So there's a whole bunch of ways that we do it, not only to keep it fresh for the audience, but for ourselves, because to your point, like yeah, there's things like the way I played the bassline whole bunch of ways that we do it, not only to keep it fresh for the audience, but for ourselves, because to your point, yeah, there's things like the way I played the bass line to Hey Girl on our second album annoys me, so I don't play it like that anymore. And we've learned to alter things in a way

that I think just keeps it feeling great for ourselves, and we think if that resonates with us, then because it started resonating with others back then, it'll continue to grow and resonate and hopefully continue to put on a new, better show. Well, it's an interesting challenge because yeah, there's something that it clearly resonates with other people about.

And so you can't change everything. Right. But if you're just doing it the same way over and over again, like what was the point of growing and getting better? And I think that's what I was going through when I was redoing obstacle. It was like, there's so much I wanna change,

but then I have to leave the form in place and why fix something that isn't broken? I'm the only one that has the big problem with it. Yeah, yeah, I get it. And also there's something about art, which is like the constraints of it, you have to finish. You write a three minute song and then you're like, well, what if we had this? What if we had this? What

if we had this? At some point it just becomes too long and you lose what made it great. So when I was redoing it, it was like, okay, I decided to write this like new forward that was sort of updating like my experience. And now I'm like, then I'm sitting here reading the audio book and now I'm like, forward, preface, introduction. I'm like reading, I'm like, then I'm sitting here reading the audio book and now I'm like, forward, preface, introduction. I'm like reading, I'm like, when the fuck is this book gonna start? Yeah. You know, like, so you wanna add and change,

but you can't because there's something about the urgency of however you did it as your younger self that you have to maintain. Yeah, there's that. And I think with literature, there's a finite nature to it where music is maybe a little different and malleable. Yes. And I liken live performances as opposed to recorded music to like taking a picture, right?

Like it's like a moment you're capturing. And so I've always felt like you have this opportunity to continue to update like in the moment. And sometimes like you plan that, but sometimes, oh, the drummer like played a different little hi-hat groove and I can like go here with this note and you know, it's all circumstantial Yeah, have you guys remastered any of your stuff? I think that's so interesting You know what we did was we released an album called XX where we it was at our 20 year mark where we

Took a bunch of the songs that we wanted to rerecord Yeah, and kind of put them back together and update a little bit Yeah, you know and and we put a couple new songs on that one as well. But we, you know, like we're slowly gathering back all of our publishing from the record deals. So at some point we're gonna have it all. And that's kind of like, I think when we would really go back through a lot of the stuff and do that.

But we've been re-releasing vinyl records slowly or surely over the years, kind of like an annual or maybe every two years sometimes, just because we see the physical medium being a very special piece of art. Well, now it's like a totem or a manifestation of something. People buy vinyl records that don't have record players. You're buying it just to be like, I like this, it's cool. We used to have a vinyl record store and We still sell some next to the bookstore,

but the guy that ran the store, he would say, I don't sell vinyl records, I sell the experience of shopping for records. And you're like, oh yeah, you're just out, you just had breakfasts, and then you're looking around. You don't need the record. You could listen to it so many easier, better ways. You're just like, I like that band.

This is 40 years old. I want to own that. Totally. But there's people that have the vinyl record player. My buddy just had a birthday, and I got a kid named Waylon. And I went shopping with Waylon at his first record store experience. Actually, the shirt I'm wearing, Lose Records in Encinitas,

it's like the real deal record store experience. And I went in there and talked to the owner,itas, it's like the real deal record store experience. And I went in there and talked to the owner like, hey, you got any good Waylon? And he's like, my kid's like looking around at all these records, like not knowing half of them or whatever, but the experience of actually like touching music,

I think is a really special thing. And that's why people are- That's what bookstores are also. Yeah, totally. You can get it cheaper and faster on Amazon. Oh yeah. But you're walking, you decided to go to a bookstore. You want the experience of going to a bookstore.

Yeah, I actually spoke with a friend before we came here who I think we have in common. And we were talking about the physical nature of art and how it's important to support the artists in some way, whether it's buying a ticket or going to the bookstore, you know, merchandise or whatever, the vinyl record. Like that is a part of it. And I feel like there was like a 15, 20 year period

where people were so excited about the digital medium and the streaming that it kind of fell to the wayside. But now it's, I think, becoming apparent that the streaming services like Spotify were seeing that there's nothing really going in the artist's pocket that is substantial unless maybe you're like a Beyonce or Taylor Swift. And even then, they're so big that it's actually not significant to them either. Yeah, exactly.

But that revenue to someone who's trying to come up, that would make a difference. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators

uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad free and be the first binge the newest season only on Wondry+. You can join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. Now, speaking of songs evolving in your perspective of it, what's that famous Cat Stevens song, the father and son one? Cat's in the Cradle? Is that it? Yeah, I think it's originally another artist.

I don't think that's it. That's not it? No. It's a father singing to his son. Father and son. Oh, okay. So I just heard a version of that song. So he recorded that 50 years ago or whatever,

it's that famous song. And then what he ended up doing was he re-recorded, he's now older than the father in the song. So he re-recorded it. So the original recording that he did whenever he did the song is him young Cat Stevens or Yousaf Islam, but is him, young Cat Stevens or Yusuf Islam, but I guess he was Cat Stevens then.

And then now he re-sang the song, but as an old man. And so he's having this like duet with himself. And it's the same song, right? And the same person in more ways than one. And yet everything is completely different. Because he, as a young man, he's writing a song, he doesn't have kids, he doesn't appreciate the father's perspective.

All he can think about is how the father's holding him back. And now he has kids, he's that age, he has an empathy for the older position and still understands the younger position and it's captured in that moment in time. It's like an incredible like meta work of art. Totally the beauty of life experience personified in the song.

Like the same lyrics, just how it's sung is different. And the way that like a cover, you know, the Johnny Cash version of Hurt is a totally fucking different song. It is, yeah, it really is. And I mean, that's a good example of somebody like putting a stamp on it in a way that's like a departure,

but like the essence of it remains the same. And I think that's a really special one as an example. I was just watching Interstellar and there's that moment where the daughter Murphy contacts the dad. The books? No, well, about the books was a big part of that movie. But like with-

No, I meant when she's like put, when he's pushing the books off the shelf. It's when he had told her that she was gonna be back by the time they were this, she was his age and then she's finally his age and she's like, you're not back. And she was upset. But meanwhile, yes, the books were coming through,

and that was his love through gravity, going through space time and all that, which was an excellent, incredible message. But to me, it's very similar to that idea of having the ability to see both perspectives later in life. Yeah, I was just listening to Zadie Smith talk about something like that, where she was,

it's like, obviously there's an enormous gulf between rich and poor poor or white and black or this nationality and that nationality, man or woman. But she was saying the interesting thing about age is that old people have been young and young people will be old. And yet still there is this, it's a lack of understanding even though the old people have been young,

they've just forgotten. And then there's a lack of empathy, even though the old people have been young, they've just forgotten. And then there's a lack of empathy from the young towards the old to imagine that one day they will be in that exact position. And yet that like explains like so much of our conflict and disagreement as a civilization is that conflict between young and old. Yeah, I think like if I can remember back when I was young

and like, I'm not gonna be like that, you know. I hope I die before I get old. Yeah, I mean, I used to have a complex about it. I wasn't gonna make it past 27. It's 27 club. Yeah, exactly. And then I hit it and I was like, okay, now what? You know, and I think we all just constantly are like

trying to get out of our own way, you know, the mindset of the time we're in, the experiences we've had, but you lose some of that perspective because it becomes so far away from the now of your life. And it's like something I've learned through a lot of my health journey stuff, like that I really have to not only continue to look at where I wanna go, but take account of what I've had to go through

to be where I am. Yeah, it's been, it was weird doing the new edition of the book realizing like I'm, well, first off, I thought I was like, okay, I'll just make these changes and then we'll just have AI like plug in. Like if I put in two words in this sentence or I added a sentence, you should be able, you can train AI models on like,

if you have seven hours of audio, you can just plug in the seven hours of audio and then just type in what you want it to say and it can match it pretty well. And I thought it would be able to do that. Or I thought I'd just be able to record pickups. Like I just, I'll just read the new sentences and like the new forward, you plug it in.

But they were like, no, no, no, you can't do that. And I thought they were just being lazy, but publishers do, I'm sure it's record labels too, is you're like, I'd like to do this. And they're like, let us tell you all the ways that that's simply not possible. And it's actually totally possible. They just don't want to do it.

Like it's just hard. So they just lie and say, you can't do something. And then if you don't, if you're not confident enough or delusional enough or like combative enough, you don't actually know where the limitations are. And so I was like, what are you talking about? Of course this is possible. I know this is technologically possible, let's just do it.

And they were like, no, you need to listen to this. And so they sent me, they were like, when was the last time you listened to the audio book that you recorded in 2013? And I was like, I don't know if I ever have. And so when I listened to it and I was like, I don't know if I ever have. And so when I listened to it, and I was like, who is this person? My voice is different.

Like 10 years of speaking and traveling and podcasts and life, the way you use your voice, the way you, yeah, I understand. Even just one season of doing my pod is like I've found a new way to talk. Yeah, not even like the tone of your voice, but how you intonate and how you, you just get more,

it's just a thing I now have thousands of hours of experience doing. I'm like, oh, this person's bad at doing it. I don't wanna, I don't wanna just update. So I had to re-record it, but just hearing that voice and going, oh, that was a 24 year old who thought that he knew things. And now I'm a 37 year old, I think I know some things,

but like I have both a revulsion towards the certainty and the superficiality of that person. And you have all of your experience and knowledge and skills. Totally, my thing is to just like embrace, right? To submit to like, that's where I was at and it's okay. It's not, you know's not how I would choose to necessarily be in certain things and ways now in my life.

And that's kind of the perspective I'm lucky I think to have now that I didn't have then. Then I was more headstrong and combative and confrontational and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think I was like more angsty, like just in general, like now I'm just like very, like, you know, passively happy with like things that I get to do

because it's finally come around where I'm like cognizant of how fortunate this is. And you know, growing up, I was the troubled kid. I was like, you know, battling against things that didn't need to be battled against in like affluent suburbs of Maryland and all that, you know, battling against things that didn't need to be battled against in like affluent suburbs of Maryland and all that, you know, and now it's just, I've been lucky to be in a band for all these years.

I survived a whole bunch of stuff for, you know, things that my family and band and friends, everybody supported me. It was crazy and like, I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but now it's helped me shape my- Come out the other side. Yeah, and I mean, that whole process was a thing of acknowledging that you,

sometimes you have to just submit to a process that you don't want, you know, but you know that the end result will be good, but that whole medium of time will just completely, it's like something, I don't know, it's like you're in a coma or something like that, and you can't control it's like something, I don't know, it's like you're in like a coma or something like that and you can't control it. You know what I mean?

You're just there, but you know your body needs to heal. You know your mind needs to heal, all those things. I mean, obviously there's some people you meet and then they change so much and you're like, well, it's sad. You watch someone sort of betray principles or become very different. But then we also hear people go like,

oh, what would, you know would the 16 year old version of me would kick the shit out of this person? And you're like, why do you care what a 16 year old thinks? You know, like you should, if you're not changing, that's sad and weird. Totally, I mean, I think that's what we're here to do is to grow, to listen, to learn, to adapt to the things that we feel are important for us.

So yeah, I'm with that too. I've made it a point to, that's how I'm trying to live the rest of my life, is just to keep learning and changing. I don't wanna be the same guy at all. But that would be weird being in a band. It's like this with marriage, I guess, and with kids too, but it must be strange. Yeah, you've been in a band with it's like this with marriage, I guess, and with kids too, but it must be strange.

Like, yeah, you've been in a band with these people for 30 years, but they're different people and you're all different people. So like, it is that process of changing and evolving and then having to be in relationships with new people because everyone's being remade constantly. And so that must be, there's a familiarity, but it's not the same group that you met in middle school.

Yeah, I mean, I think for us, like we've changed together and because it's been so personal and close, like we've been a part of each other's changes. And like in a marriage, like hopefully you grow together. And there've certainly been things that go on that are like brothers fight and stuff like that. But like, we're still here and the goal is to like do it till we die, I think, you know, and that's like a beautiful thing if we can pull that off. I mean, this weekend, you know, we were at a oceans calling festival, Tim Sweetwood

and Mark and Jerry from our band, like a bunch of team members put this incredible festival together. But I got to watch the Beach Boys play. Wow. And you know, there's two original members in their 80s and they're like traveling more this year than our band is. They're doing like 180 dates or something like that. And they were so happy and so like, just like,

it looked like they were grateful to be there. And that's like a goal, I think, is as a person, as a band, you wanna get to a point where you're those old, like Mark calls it a troubadour, like the George Strait song, he wants to be the old troubadour who's still singing songs. And I think we all wanna be up there together and impacting the people who get to hear these stories he's singing about and feel the music.

Is there kind of an addiction to being on the road though? Like, I mean, on what, I mean, you're doing 180 shows with 80 after having been in the band for 60 years. There's something like beautiful and inspiring about it. And then there's this other angle where you're like, is it ever enough? Can you ever walk away?

How do you, you know, there's something- Enough is a good word. Yeah, I think about that word a lot in life, you know? And I think it's probably different for everyone. I think for us, where we're at in our lives right now, we wanna spend more time at home with our families. You know, we've all got kids. I think we've come to a point with our business

where we know that we can do a certain amount of business that not only, you know, makes us happy, but satisfies, you know, the audience and makes them happy. And but there's also that push pull of supply and demand and sort of all that stuff with, you know, working with best way to launch a tour. And we've learned some hard lessons over the years. And, you know, we missed some years with COVID with COVID and all that you know and so it's it's just one of those things I think for some bands they might need it you know to like survive you know financially or some bands might just be addicted to it. Yeah the Rolling Stones it's like at some point what is making you do it you know it's like you love it and I'm not judging because I sure no I I go through it too. I was thinking about this like with my own thing. It's like the year is basically, I thought my calendar was booked

and then like a couple of things came in last minute. And then I was like, I don't need it. And I wasn't planning on doing it. And I don't really want to do it. And yet saying no is hard because I think every entertainer, artist, entrepreneur has that little part of your brain that's always thinking at some point they're not gonna ask anymore.

Like at some point it goes away. So that sort of scarcity or insecurity of it, it drives you. And then you're 80 and you're still doing hundreds of shows. There is that part of you that like, maybe you can just never turn it off. Yeah, I think you kind of get used to having some sort of relevance to the culture of music

or the culture of the people that listen to your music. And you want to be able to continue to relate. I think that's sort of like that connective tissue of humanity that you get used to having like a friend group. You know, you wanna be in touch with your friends or like my wife's in a book club. She wants to continue to relate to the girls that she cares about and like have these discussions

that are meaningful and an escape from her career and all that stuff too. And I think to that point, like going on tour is a bit of an escape from like the home lifestyle that we get to lead outside of the band as individuals. But when we go out there, it's, you know, we're like, we pretty much just do summer tours now and it's like summer camp. Like we're out there, we's, you know, we pretty much just do summer tours now, and it's like summer camp.

Like we're out there, we can like sleep in, you know? Like it's just like, there's no kids for the most part, like waking us up, screaming and doing whatever, you know? It's a different thing, which we, you know, we appreciate, but we all certainly miss the other side. You know, that's a whole thing is like, you know, I waited till late in life, I met the right person at the right time and got settled down and I've got a kidder now, and like, I love, he's like, you know, I waited so late in life. I met the right person at the right time

and got settled down and I've got a kidder now. And like, I love, he's five, you know, and he's just tremendous and I love being around him. And it's hard to leave, but like, can't pay the bills if I don't go on tour, you know? Like that's a part of my life now. So COVID must've been nice in the sense that you got like a big chunk of time that you maybe ordinarily

would have been on the road for. Yeah, it a big chunk of time that you maybe ordinarily would have been on the road for. Yeah, it was the hiatus that we had always talked about taking, however, like it was nice for that, but like what happened to me is I got long COVID and I had a resulting autoimmune disease and became disabled for- So not so nice.

Well, it was nice because I was around, but I couldn't engage, like I had some very serious health issues that took, it was the better part of two years to resolve the physical. And then I had a resulting bunch of PTSD and mental health issues, which is why I started a podcast to focus on elevating and destigmatizing mental health conversations. And it was really a very tricky pandemic for me, because I was actually the the irony of that,

and this is like maybe part of like how we should all live in the moment. So I was so concerned with getting more sick from COVID. I didn't realize I already had had it. And that would already set off a chain reaction of autoimmune issues. And so like, I was so worried like- You're avoiding a thing you already had.

Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. So it was a lesson in itself, but it helped me to appreciate the identity that I had already had, but I was able to get back to. And it's not like I have an ego about being that person, I don't think.

It's just more that I love that life. And it's also being a part of my family. I couldn't even pick up my one-year-old kid at the time and that kind of stuff. It was a whole tricky time and God bless my partner. She's amazing and helped me kind of deal with that. And part of it was when I found out how long part of the healing of it was,

it was like, I never had to do something like that where I was like, okay, it's gonna take a year to like be able to like even go and do some personal training. Like I had to go through physical therapy and occupational therapy. Well, the powerlessness of it is interesting. I think, yeah, even for me, like for people who aren't on the road a lot,

maybe you can't understand it, but there is some part of you that's never, you're never home long enough to fully be home. So you're always kind of have one foot in and out because you're like, well, I'm going to be gone in two weeks or I'm going to be gone for two weeks. So you're home, but you're not like fully absorbed into the rhythm of this life that exists. That's right. And is always going on. And so, yeah, you could take a month off,

you could take two months off, you could take a year off. And you think, but because that escape valve or that process is still there. So like, I think for, I was looking at it, like we, my family, we went some places, like we drove places during COVID, but we stayed together for like 500 consecutive nights

or something. And I'll never probably do that again in my life. But the rhythm of that much time, it changes you because it's so different than your normal rhythm of like looking at calendar in three weeks, I gotta go on the road. So you gotta start packing, you gotta start thinking, you gotta start preparing.

Totally, it's like for me, it's whether or not I put the suitcase away. Yes. And if it's away, I feel like I'm actually settling in. Then ironically, I'm like, rarely doing that. Whereas like my wife, the instant she gets home, the suitcase is like unpacked, everything's unfolded, like hung up and all that.

And it's like a mental construct that I have now of like, I'm just used to going out, you know? And so it's just something I think when I get home, I'm almost not like believing that I can actually settle back in. And actually when I go home later today, it's the first time I actually have more than two weeks at home since May. Yeah.

So it's like, I'm really excited and ready, but you also, I'm already thinking about the next one. Totally. Like, what do I need to do while I'm home? What's the honey you live? You're catching up or you're storing up about the next one. Totally. Like, what do I need to do while I'm home? What's the honeydew list? And you're catching up, or you're storing up for the next time. And so there is this, it's almost like being in this kind

of heightened, like, fight or flight thing. Yep, that's a good way to put it. I never thought of it like that. If you listen to the Bob Cedar song, Turn the Page, there's a Metallica cover also that's very good. I think I've heard Metallica covered about us, yeah. But it's about like a guy on the road. Like, it's about a musician on the road.

And you could just, yeah, there's just kind of this like alienation half one step removed from the plane that everyone else is operating on and you just get into that place. Yeah, I love it. You know, I love what we get to do, but yeah, it would be nice to feel like I was actually gonna stay home, be home,

and not have a thing where I was bouncing out again. But that's also, it makes you, when you have those moments, it makes you really hold onto them and love them. I'm gonna get home tonight before hopefully my kid comes home from his afternoon activities and I can already feel the joy of him running through the front door and all that. So, I mean, it's all part of what I get to do,

and I'm happy about it. It's definitely a trickier living in the now than when you get that 500-day routine. Yeah, when it goes away and you do slot into that rhythm, you realize how unnatural the normal one is and how the toll it's taking on you. Like the mental health toll of sleeping in different beds, the fake conversations, the-

I try not to have those. I'm like a no fluff kind of guy. I'm so bad at like, you know, you go to the venue or the place or whatever, and then they're like, hi, I'm so and so. And you're like, you want to connect with this person, but you also are never gonna connect with them ever again. And you're just like, I met you three days ago in a different city doing a different thing.

And so there's like, they're not aware of the falsity that you're feeling, but you're carrying it. And so there's just kind of a psychic baggage. Yeah, I think that can be there. And that has been there for me in my lifetime. This weekend, I watched something happen that was like the opposite of that. That made me realize some of these connections

and moments can actually come back years later. We do a lot of work with Chef Robert Irvine, who does things for veterans. And he brought his Breaking Bread with Heroes program to Ocean's Calling Festival to say thank you to the first responders. And we were watching, it might've been the Beach Boys concert, either the Beach Boys or after them, The Killers played such a great show. Like it was, yeah, it was awesome.

They had pyro and everything. It was like top notch. So anyway, this person comes up to the sort of artist bar that was on the side of the grounds. And I mean, we were fortunate, there was like 50,000 plus people at this festival. It was crazy. And this guy comes up, he's like,

Chef, Chef, please come here. And we're up on a thing watching the stage and the grounds of the beach are down there. Like people were actually on the beach in Ocean City, Maryland. And this guy has a picture of his daughter and chef. Okay, and chef was like noticeably younger. And he's like, hey, you know, you took this picture

with, you know, my daughter like 12, 14 years ago, you know, and I wanted to say thank you because she still talks about it. And it was a moment and he remembered the person and like where they took it and all that stuff. And so I've kind of been processing that. I also had like on the podcast for season, I talked to Flavor Flav and he was like,

he said, you never know like how deep those connections are gonna be even if it's five seconds. And he actually put it in the opposite where is like if you're not your best self those connections are gonna be even if it's five seconds. And he actually put it in the opposite where is like if you're not your best self and really like try to connect with the people, they might be like, F you, I've waited my whole life for this moment

and it might not mean anything to you, but I'm gonna remember this forever. So he impressed upon me to really take that to heart that every little thing should, even if you're not like thinking you'll be able to remember it, to really grasp it and wholeheartedly appreciate that you get to say hello and thank you to somebody or whatever it is.

So I kind of have a process of that. There's a weight to that. You have to carry around. Yeah. And then it's not normal. Yeah. And then you go back to your normal life and only, it's only when things are quiet,

you realize it's how loud, you know, a city is. Sure. And, and so I was just thinking about the mental health thing. It just, it takes a toll on you. There is that for sure. Like when you're popping in and out of places and you know, like you don't know anyone. You're just always in a hurry.

Are we going to catch this? Are we going to make this? What about this? What is the suit? There's just like, just a constant stress. Yes, absolutely. And sleeping in parking lots doesn't help, you know? That's a whole other thing.

Like, you know, you're on a bus trying to rest. Like I've realized how important rest is in my life now. When I don't rest well, like everything's off. And tour is tough because like majority of nights you're driving while you're sleeping. And for me, like, you know, you always want your, if people don't know this and they sleep on a bus ever, like you want your feet facing forward

in case there's an accident. Like you want your feet to take the impact. Obviously not the back of your neck or head or anything. So, but when the bus comes to a stop, you kind of like, it's like Dracula, you know, like you just kind of rise up a little bit and that wakes me up every time. It's just like a natural thing.

I mean, we've had a couple of close calls out there on the road and I've had to like, you know, like anytime I feel that, like it's almost like a- You have a stress response. Yeah, a fight or flight kind of thing. Like it's something wrong. And so that over time, like over the tour,

you just, you're like chipping away at your kind of like base energy level. So was there a part for you that you thought music was going to, or a point for you where you thought music was going to go away, like you weren't going to be able to play anymore? Yeah, I couldn't play for a while. My thing was my thyroid was so off, I had like almost no thyroid hormone production. And so then the doctor, not gonna name names, overprescribed me, I was a naturopath,

and she basically gave me a dose immediately that was almost 100% over what the correct dosage ended up being. And so I went from hypothyroid to hyper, which is your system becomes toxic with the hormone. And so I went from having about six, seven months of trying to figure this out, then identifying it, but dealing with it incorrectly.

And so then I had to go to an endocrinologist and I ended up like, in that process, I couldn't really walk, I couldn't pick up my kid, I had tachycardia issues with my heart and like I couldn't squeeze things. I couldn't hold stuff. So I couldn't play the bass. So I had to learn to use my hands again.

And so, yeah, I was concerned about losing my identity. And then after all that, yeah, it had a whole bunch of like traumatic, like stress disorder issues that I'm still, to be honest, dealing with and realizing sometimes a little late that I'm going through one again. And you know, like, yeah, it's a whole thing. You know, I can imagine.

Plus, you're not just, hey, this is a thing I do and I love doing it and it's a joy, but you're also like, it's my fucking job. So there's a tricky thing where when your identity, your success, your paycheck, it's all tied up in this thing that is very fickle, like an injury could take it away, the market could take it away, you get canceled, you know, there's all these things that could just.

Absolutely. It's a hard thing to rely on something so much. And maybe that's part of why I thought there would be a good idea to do something else also with the pod. And it's been really enjoyable. But yeah, like the other part of it is like the idea that like I have a responsibility or a role to a group. That is a big part of what I was gonna just share with you since we're getting to meet is, you know, in the obstacle is the way. I'll read it if you don't mind because it was a big thing. Hopefully my little sticker didn't fall out of here.

Here we go. There were two things in particular that like hit me besides like the love of fate and accepting it is the obstacle in the path becomes the path. Never forget within every obstacle is an opportunity to improve our condition. And to me, the big word in that was our condition. And so I really heard it as doing something that you do yourself, but you're doing

for kind of the hive mentality. Like I don't want anybody to ever have to go through the things I went through. And I think if like just the idea of if I had started talking about how I was really feeling earlier in my process and when I was healing the physical health aspects of my stuff, it would have completely altered

like the trajectory of that. And so now like all I'm trying to do is get out there and really have those conversations with people because I think if we all just start doing it more often, it's like, let's say right now, you're the only person I could ever talk to and it wasn't with microphones and an audience, all right? That's the only person I can go to for help.

But if you end up being more comfortable to the point of like having 20 friends, if you're in one of those emergency situations where you're really having a panic attack or a breakdown of some sort, you know, you have a lot more space to get some like healing going. There's also like accumulated wisdom around you.

Other people's experience, you don't have to necessarily go through something the hard way. Yeah. If someone else is like, oh, when I was 20, I went through the exact same thing. Let me tell you what I learned the hard way. Exactly, and for me too,

when I'm like having these conversations now, like I'm learning and I love that like, okay, I'm not just gonna learn, but I'll just leave it out there on the internet and maybe somebody else will benefit from it too. The other one is, let's see, hopefully I can find this. If not for me, then for my family or the others I'm leading or those who might later find themselves

in a similar situation. So it was very much- Yeah, that's the Stockdale chapter? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it's something bigger than yourself. Yeah, no, that is really interesting. It's funny that you read that into the intro, in that line in the intro, it's like with art,

you say one thing and then it lands in someone. I don't think I was meant for that condition, but I do have a later chapter in the book about that. But yeah, when you hear the idea of the obstacles away, I'm not saying that your cancer diagnosis is awesome and it's gonna be better for you. It might be the end of the road for you. So I think the stoic idea that there's some good

in this situation or good can come from it, it means, you know, what are you gonna do for other people? What example are you gonna provide? What breakthroughs are you gonna fund? You know, what conversation are you gonna have that's gonna stick with someone? There's- There's purpose in that.

There's, yeah, and meaning in what you're able to do, gonna stick with someone, there's purpose in that. And meaning in what you're able to do, even if you don't reap the majority of the benefit of what happened. Yeah, I mean, I've always been a collaborative person. I was a coach on a swim team, all the things. I've tried to do it. You're not a solo artist.

Yeah, I don't want to be that. I like it when people help people. I like it when I'm able to be a part of a community effort, be a part of like a bigger thing. And I think we all need more of that in the world. I would just like it if people could actually like, listen to the person across the table from them and actually like hear them and accept that it's okay that if they believe something completely different or completely crazy, you know, that that's their right as an American, as a human being, to like have that perspective. And hopefully that's what I'm like going towards is just the idea of like doing all this for that. Well, there is this idea, I think, of stoicism

as being sort of invulnerable, isolated, self-contained, superhuman. And look, there is a part of stoicism that's about kind of toughening you up and not being so fragile. But I think one of my favorite passages in meditation is Mark's verse, he says, "'You're like a soldier storming a wall.'"

And he says, "'You've fallen and you need to ask a comrade for help.'" And then he just says, "'So what?'' You know, I love, which to me is actually to ask a comrade for help. And then he just says, so what? Which to me is actually just such a good stoic take on this, like be vulnerable, ask for help, put yourself out there. He's not like, it's amazing and beautiful and inspiring. He's just like, so what, just do it.

Like there's no shame in it. And in fact, like that's your duty as a soldier, right? Like if you fall and you're like, I fell, I guess this is it for me. You know, you're actually abandoning the other people. Yeah, the mission's still there. Yeah, so if you have to ask for help, it's your job to ask for help.

And by the way, their job to receive the offer for help. And if we can just kind of de-stigmatize and de-mystify like the whole like, I'm struggling, I don't know what to do. What do you think I should do? What about this? I'm lost. Just take all that apart and just, if you need something, be an adult and fucking ask for it is so important.

I mean, like, look, you know, say you twist your ankle or something like that. It's like not a socially big thing to be like, hey guys, I can't come out or whatever. Like I got a busted ankle, you know? But like if you're having a mental health day or like severe anxiety, how many people are actually comfortable being like,

I'm losing it. I need to take the night to myself or go talk to my therapist or something like that. It's completely different. And our healthcare system also treats that completely. Or during the pandemic, just the idea of like, hey, if you're sick, please stay home, take care of yourself.

Don't soldier through this because you think you're being selfless, but actually you're being really selfish. And so there is another way to think about asking for help is that it's the opposite of selfish. It's actually, okay, if you're out of commission for a month because you're going through something the hard way that actually there's a really easy solution to,

there's a selfishness to that and an inefficiency to that and a pointlessness to that. And you can't take care of other people or do anything if you haven't taken care of yourself anyway. So it's kind of like, why wouldn't you? Common sense stuff, but I don't know that it's always seen as such. Like it's like, we also live in this kind of like,

work mentality of like, you shouldn't take days off. You know what I mean? And what is that? You know? I bet that's hard as a musician, right? Like if you take a day off, there's 20,000 people that have to be upset or cancel it. So there is that, it's like, it's this tension

between soldiering through and then taking care of yourself and what Shapeh Al-Rum got in trouble for this. She's like, I'm not feeling it. It's like the standard's probably higher than that, but also not kill yourself in pursuit of a contractual obligation that can be easily made up. Sure, sure. I mean, I think being preventative

and coming up with some better habits of dealing with what we all deal with, that we're flawed human beings and we're gonna have our days, but being realistic about it and not being too small in what we choose to acknowledge. We have stuff, but it's like, okay, do you have a headache or is it a migraine?

That kind of stuff with your mental health. I talked to a baseball player and he says, there's a difference between being hurt and being injured. Very much so. And I was like, oh, that's a great distinction. Yeah, it's like you respect injuries, but everyone's playing hurt. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, I mean, I've certainly been playing hurt for a little while, both physically and mentally. I think as you get older, you can't help but have more things that affect you. And nobody's getting out of these bodies unscathed, one way or another. And that's just a part of moving forward is dealing with it.

And yeah, you gotta be tough, but you also have to be realistic. And that's the kind of fine line I think we all have to figure out, but I think we to be realistic, you know? And that's the kind of fine line, I think, like we all have to figure out, but I think we could be more sensitive about, you know, in how we relate to other people and what they're going through. Yeah, like when Simone Biles called it out of the Olympics, was it three years ago or two years ago?

Because I don't think it was exactly four. But it was like, I don't even have an opinion about this. You know, like that, I think that's the other place. So it's like, let's say somebody does do it and maybe you would do it differently. You can still just shut the fuck up. You know what I mean? I think part of it culturally

is respecting other people's process. And maybe they'll regret it. Maybe they'll wish they'd pushed through. Maybe they won't, but it wasn't your call. And even if it was your call, it already happened. And so, you know, having a hot take about it isn't doing anything, but contributing a certain amount of shame and hesitation for the next time someone has to make a call like this.

I think generally giving people grace and going, hey, you know. Yeah, don't like throw gasoline on the fire and then turn it into clickbait for when it's somebody's like life and wellbeing is a and then turn it into clickbait when it's somebody's life and wellbeing is a big part of it for me. Every person who's saying something like that is more than likely, in my opinion,

projecting their own stuff that they're like, I would never have to do that. You know, those internet demons. Or you called into work sick like two weeks ago, so shut the fuck up. Yeah, exactly. And maybe it's like all you're doing is like reading something. You know what I mean? Yeah, and maybe it's like, all you're doing is like reading something,

you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly, and it's not like you're actually, I mean, Simone Biles, let's look at what she's actually doing. She could break her neck, if she, in the incredible athletic feats she's doing, she could literally die. So I think there's no better example than that of like,

of course she should have done what what she did in my opinion. And look at her now, like, you know, being able to be at peace with herself and like tell that story and share with people and hopefully inspire a generation to be more open about that. Well, and also, and it sounds like you guys are working on this, but I'm thinking about it too.

Like, yeah, okay, the artists never make it past 27. You know, I'd rather burn out than fade away. There was this kind of like ephemerality or almost a recklessness to a lot of professions, whether it's sports or art or entrepreneurship, like sleep at the office, burn the candle, both ends. Thankfully, it's starting to change a little bit where people are actively thinking about sustainability.

What's so great about writing is, even more so I think than music, is there are authors who are doing their best work at 80. It's not just like the Beach Boys, they're still doing it at 80. They're not writing their best songs at 80. There's not a second, wouldn't it be nice? Yeah, but writing, you can do forever.

We have a different cultural set of expectations for writers, I think. That's a great point. And so if that's what you want, the idea that you're gonna get there by being the crap out of yourself or not taking care of yourself in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s is just not how it's gonna work.

So, you know, you're Tom Brady and you just never got tackled a lot. You're like, no, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my body and set myself up for some kind of longevity. I wanna do this sustainably. Yeah, the marathon, not the sprint, right? Like that's the idea. And I think for our band, we really have strove

to like set ourselves up for that. Yeah. You know, like pacing our tours now is a part of that. You know, because if we were to go out and oversaturate all these markets and, you know, oh, you can see OAR every three months, they're coming back down. Or what if you just wake up one day,

one of the members goes, I fucking don't wanna do this anymore. I hate music. Because you overdid it and you sucked the fun and the novelty out of it. Yeah, I think that, well, I think that was starting to be a thing. And we all had talks about like,

what's the best way to address this, where we can keep going, keep creating new music. Cause I mean, we're releasing another album in the future. Like we're working on it now. We're actually doing more creative things, I think, than we've ever done in the way of like making plans farther in advance, working on a movie to, you know, kind of capture the 30 years of our career.

There's a lot I think you can do when you set yourselves up like that. When you look at like the burnout phase, like what do you get, like that. When you look at the burnout phase, what do you get? Maybe three albums out of that. Yeah. But if you pace yourself, maybe you're a band that releases 25, 30 over the course of the years. I mean, look at Billy Joel, the longest standing residency at The Garden, however many years. I mean, it's really a testament, I think, where it's like to your interest in it,

as well as the interest others have in it, and that ability to sort of balance and come up with that healthy plan. Yeah, yeah, you have to let fields go fallow, you have to, you know, you have to recover. You can't do it at the same pace forever. It's not humanly possible. Yeah, that's something one of the guys on the pod said,

the first episode, producer Matt Wallace, he was like, I was getting burned out It's not humanly possible. Yeah, that's something one of the guys on the pod said the first episode, producer Matt Wallace, he was like, I was getting burned out from trying to work so much. He was going in at 8 a.m., working till 12, and he started to taper off sort of some of those days, and the bands were like, what are you doing? You know, we need you in here.

He's like, actually, I think it would be more beneficial for you guys if I wasn't here. If you wanna keep working, you know, my engineer can stay, but I'm gonna leave at 7.30 so I can get home and be with my family and say goodnight to my kid and keep myself healthy and balanced and all that. Especially music is such weird, there's also the kind of night owlness

which isn't probably sustainable or normal if you wanna be a functioning, balanced human being. Yeah, I don't think you can have both of those like at the same time. I think in that's something we learned with time was that you don't do recording sessions like that. Or if you do, it's because you only have 24 hours to get something done.

It's not like, that's not how we approach anything anymore. It's like, what are we trying to do? All right, let's set a reasonable timeline, and that we know we can not like over-stress. I mean, that's my whole mantra now is like with mental health is like, if it's creating stress, you're doing it the wrong way. Yeah, like I think all-nighters are bullshit.

I hate the sort of like bleary-eyed, like the stream of consciousness. I think it's much more the day-to-dayness, the everyday-ness, the everydayness, the consistency and the even keelness. Are there moments of kind of insanity and energy and excitement that are good? But I think most of it is much less dramatic and much less glamorous than you would render it if you were doing a montage scene in a movie.

Totally. And I think that's what it comes down to is that it's just like anything else. It's work that you wanna do and maintain. It's a career, it's not a job. It's a lifestyle that you wanna lead for whatever amount of time. Hopefully it's a long one, but that's like why you end up doing something you're passionate about.

No, I think that's good. You wanna go check out some books? Sure, man, yeah. Let's do it. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

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