The Daily Stoic - Pete Holmes on Why Laughter Is the REAL Path to Enlightenment (PT. 2)

Episode Date: October 11, 2025

Comedian Pete Holmes is back for Part 2 and in full philosopher mode. He and Ryan dive into success, psychedelics, and why it’s not egotistical to say you’re “one of the greats.” They talk about how to find peace when life feels out of control, why laughter might be the highest form of enlightenment, and what it really means to “make it.”Pete Holmes is an American actor, comedian, writer, producer, and podcaster. He first gained recognition in the early 2010s as a stand-up comic, and also released his first comedy special and worked as a television writer and actor. He is the host of the podcast You Made It Weird, author of Comedy Sex God, and the creator of the HBO show Crashing. Follow Pete Holmes on Instagram, X, and YouTubeWatch Ryan's episode on You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9B-15fV1IListen to Pete interview Robert Greene - one of Ryan's favorite podcast episodes! 🎙️ Listen to Pete’s podcast You Made It Weird on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and YouTube📚 Grab signed copies of Comedy Sex God by Pete Holmes at The Painted Porch | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/👉 Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing to The Daily Stoic Premium - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content: https://dailystoic.supercast.com/📖 Preorder the final book in Ryan Holiday's The Stoic Virtues Series: "Wisdom Takes Work": https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And we're going to have a bunch of exclusive bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you want to remove distractions, go deeper into Stoicism and support the work we do here. Well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium, and we are offering a limited time discount of 20% off your first year. Just go to dailystoic.com slash premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show of descriptions to make those ads go away. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic version. choose of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom.

And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a while. walk to sit with your journal and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. So you probably know this.

When guests come out to the bookstore, we record in the studio, which is next door to the bookstore. And then usually my last question is like, hey, you want to go check out some books? And we walk next door and I sort of give them a tour of the bookstore. I pick out little books for them here or there. Now, most people love this. And then some people struggle because they think I'm just, like, loading them up with books that maybe they wouldn't have ordinarily bought. And then it's like, am I tricking them into spending a lot of money?

And then there's a camera behind them. So, like, they don't want to be rude. And I actually, it took me a while to pick up on this dynamic. Like, it was inconceivable to me that I would have made my friends pay for these books in the bookstore that I'm specifically picking out and raving them to them. So, like, I couldn't understand that's the vibe. I was picking up on. And so finally, I did.

We have to tell them beforehand, Ryan's going to pick out some books for you after. They're free. If you don't like them, you don't have to take them, but like, you're not paying for them, right? And then when I had Pete Holmes, who's my guest today, we had part one of the episode earlier in the week, Pete was briefed on this in advance and still had very strong opinions about the books.

Like, let me play you this clip because I thought it was hilarious. Have you read Outdoor Kids in an Inside World? No. That's good. That might be up your alley. I don't know why, but I immediately am not. Is this a cover reaction? I don't like the title.

You would disagree with the idea of having an outdoor kid? I don't like it. Okay. You ever had anyone put them back? Usually they just humor me. Which is so funny because Pete is one of the nicest swimmers. sweetest. Like when you think stand-up comics, most people think sort of like aserbic and direct and sarcastic, and Pete is those things, but he's also like just an incredibly sweet,

kind human being. So like for Pete Holmes to be the one that pushes back on the books for the first time, I just thought was surprisingly wonderful. We had a great conversation. As I said, I've known Pete a very long time. I first did, you made it weird maybe back in 2019 when stillness is the key was coming out. He came on virtually back in 2020. You can listen to that episode. I've done his podcast a couple more times. Always amazing conversations.

His podcast is one of my favorites. I listen to it all the time. I download it when I go on trips. And I just listen to it when I'm sitting there on the plane and try not to watch TV. But I do like to listen to Pete Holmes. We had a great conversation in part one. In part two, we're talking about books, talking about this phrase. He has written in his mirror.

Talking about having more compassion for others and his relationship with accomplishment and ambition, and then two jokes that are in meditations. I actually think the Stoics are very funny. As I said, Pete Holmes had a great show on HBO called Crashing. He's been in a number of stand-up specials. His most recent one, I think, was recorded in Minneapolis. You can watch it on Netflix. It's great. We watched it. We loved it. He has a book called Comedy Sex God. Actually, Comedy, Sex, God. That's the little play on words there. And he has one of my favorite podcasts. You made it weird. You can follow Pete on Instagram and on Twitter at Pete Holmes. But In the meantime, just get in to this interview because it's great.

When we kill time, time is killing us. So you never get those three hours back. And I'm not saying you have to be like Mark Wahlberg and get a workout in. But I'm just saying, like, what are you going to do in that time? Well, this is interesting, again, for the sake of a lively podcast. I think about this all the time. I alternate between what you're saying. And there are times when I'm really lit up.

and devouring life. I can get into what my friends know is a Tony Robbins phase. Like, I'm like, get up at five and do breath work and cold plunge. I do that stuff even when I don't feel that way, just because I like it. But there's another thing, and I think you're going to agree, if I get a three-hour delay, which I often do, not often, but as much as the next, you could walk and read and achieve and all that sort of stuff. but there's also just, well, we could do it right now.

If it's not in the moment, where is it? No, I'm not saying you have to productively use the time. I'm just saying, am I going to spend this time angry? Am I going to spend this time watching the seconds tick by? Right, right, right. If I sat there and meditated for three hours, that would also be great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or if I was just chill and had a delightful conversation of the person sitting next to me,

the point is to be there and to be alive as opposed to. to what, if you're an anxious person, which I am, or if you're a person who needs to be in control all the time, to file it as wasted. You're just like, I'm going to kill this time by like, I just go, okay, I'm going to go do something else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it could be like, I've always wanted to watch this movie and now I'm going to watch this movie. Like, that's something to show for it if you enjoyed the movie. Right, right, right. You know? Yep, I'm with you. I didn't think we were disagreeing as much as I'm like, a delayed flight, I think of them very fondly. I sometimes remember the names of people that I talk to. Because it's a really unique

situation. You're in the same boat. You're in the same plane as all these people. And everybody's having different reactions. I think travel is one of those humbling experiences where you really are out of control. And I thrive in those. I do worse when I'm late to the airport if it was my car departing at the wrong time. That's harder for me to be chill. But if a flag is delayed. The thing that I was getting at was like in the moment, which I think is our little snapshot of eternity, I think what we call the present, again, this is everything I'm saying is pretty much Rupert or Eckhart or Ram Dass or all these people. So it's just going to be a soup. I'll do footnotes at the end. But it's like the present moment isn't like one frame of film

with an infinite amount of past behind it and an infinite amount of future. in front of it. That's not really our experience. It's, it's, it's the only thing there is. It's eternity. Yeah. It's how, and then the mind interprets that. How much time, one time I was on ketamine and I kept laughing going, and I go, how much time was there between that which is and that which never was? Now, how long is the present moment? Is the present moment a moment? Is it a second? Is it a year? But also as soon as the clap is gone. Yeah. It wasn't. Yeah. This makes a lot more sense on drugs. But where that gets useful is if you are delayed and you can sit down,

Jesus tells a lot of parables about this, trying to explain how precious. Also, Eckartoli, if you have church drama like I do, a lot of people tell that story about the beggar sitting on the box, and he's asking for change. And finally, someone says, what's in the box? And he looks in the box and it's filled with gold. Look to the New Testament for dozens of other parables that are like just trying to say

it's already here, you already have it. He's like, tomorrow will take care of itself. Yeah, but what are we talking about? What we might say in the modern day is like tomorrow doesn't exist. You know, what are you talking about? Show me tomorrow. Yeah. And show me the you that's worried about that tomorrow.

We're getting a little heady. But in the airport, what I was going to say was you can sit, and again, you could do it right now. We have the hum of the air conditioner. One of the most helpful meditations or just kind of practices is going like, hear the sound of the, the air conditioning and like try to, this is, again, Rupert, try to put like an imaginary hand and touch what is the sound made of?

Like, what is it? Yeah. What makes a sound? What make, you can do with your eyes open. What makes the sight of Ryan? What makes the feelings in my body? And they're all made of the knowing of them. Yeah.

And delay at the airport is a really good opportunity to trip out and listen to the commotion and sort of the white noise of an airport. and just go, this is me. This is made of me. I flew into Newark yesterday. I didn't, sorry, last week. I flew into Newark last week. And I was walking out and I realized, oh, I slept, right?

Like, I spent, I had a flight that was supposed to take off at 10 and we took off at 4 or 5 a.m. Like, five years ago. And I walked by it and I was like, I slept right there. And I had a fond feeling about it that I certainly did not have in that moment that. that realizing, okay, five years later, all I can think of is, remember when I spent the night at the airport? That was crazy. And actually, I was coming home to close on this whole building.

And so, like, I thought I was going to miss the signing, which in retrospect, it's so silly. Like, they don't, like, you miss the signings don't matter. Now, the pandemic revealed you can just do them in docu-sign. But, like, it was like, I got to get to this meeting. If I don't get to this meeting, this thing won't happen. That's a little ceremony. Yeah, it's a stupid thing.

And then they slide the keys across the table. again, all of this can happen asynchronously, but it just didn't then. But like, I, I tortured myself through that eight hours at the airport in a way that I didn't need to. Yeah. That now in retrospect, I clearly think of fondly, why couldn't I have given myself more of that gift now? Well, that was in my book. There are a couple ideas that I uncovered for myself in my book. I'm sure you have dozens and dozens. I have one book. I meant to bring it. I was I was looking for it in my office. Oh, no, please.

It's right here. But you know the feeling. It's like you write a whole book and then, or I do a whole hour of stand-up. And there's a couple things that you're like, or you do a million podcasts and you're like, there's a couple moments. One of the ones in my book that, you know, if I asked Chat, GPT to summarize my book, I would hope it would include this. I actually did and it did a great job.

But it didn't include this. It's good episode is the idea that when we watch television, we want stuff to happen and we want stuff to go wrong. And then the trick is to, because I know exactly what you're talking about. Every time I'm at, I think it was O'Hare, it is O'Hare. One time it snowed so much, I had to sleep at O'Hare. And when I'm there in O'Hare, I look around and I'm like, that's where I slept. And it was a good episode.

So we talked about this once, you and I, I was like, is this a good book title? Because I'm fascinated with book titles, nostalgia for the present. And I was like, that's all right. It sounds like a guy trying to sell a book, to be honest. But nostalgia for the present is a real idea. It's like, can we nudge that up? In real time, can you say good episode while it's happening? The way you would title that book now, especially if you wanted it to be like a Mel Robbins book or something,

you'd call it like, you'll love this later. You'll love this later. That's what I would title that book. You'll love this later. Did she write Let Them? Yeah. I just started reading it in a coffee shop. And you ever read something?

Look, I don't know anything about Mel Robbins. I just saw the title. I assumed it was like, fluff. It is light. I don't find it to be like dense. And I'm like, oh, God damn it. You know what I mean? I was like, good for you, Mel. There's certain self-help books that are like men and then there's certain that are sort of universal, like, like for everyone. Yeah. And I've just, I've just been on these planes. I've seen so many women reading Mel Robbins books who I like. And I was like, that's how you would make that book seem like, oh, yeah, I'm going on vacation. I don't read a lot.

I'll read this. You'll love this later. And my books have benefited from this. You want, like, a little mantra or expression that even if you don't read the whole thing, you're like, okay, I get the basic point, which is like, hey, if you're going to- The Body Keeps the Score. Yeah, which is like the densest, most fucked up book you could ever read. It's about, like, generational trauma. Yeah, but you call it, The Body Keeps the Score, and you're like, that's a secret. I need to know that.

Yeah. You'll love this later. Can I have that? Go for it. It's a great idea. I'll just email it to myself. Most of my emails are to myself. Yes.

I also thought about calling one, yes, thank you. I don't know how Malcolm Gladwell does it. He writes a book called Blink and everyone buys it. Malcolm Gladwell is a legacy. That's like, he's like a rock band from the 80s. He was in a different world when there were multiple book chains and books got covered. And he writes for the New York. It's a different thing.

There used to be a thing called the Big Idea book. And you could just, it could be called like strategy or it could be called like Blink or It could be like the wake-up effect or, you know, like some made-up, like, concept, and people be like, I'll read that. And now people are too busy. And also there's, most of those books can be summarized in a 60-second TikTok. Right. So, like, you have to now, it just has to be a different thing.

It's a, books play a different role in the culture and in dissemination of ideas. And so you just, I mean, some people can do it. Like, Robert Green's doing a book on The Sublime. Yeah. You know, like, have a first-time author to take a crack. that and see if they can watch it sell six copies. Right, right, right. You know, and Roberts will sell a million. You just sort of broke my heart, though, because one of the things I don't like, and by the way, I paid $40 for the Let Them audiobook. So like, I'm in, Mel, this isn't shade.

I've even done it. I was with my manager last night, and he was kind of being my manager, and I thought, let him, let him kind of, meaning, you know, he just kind of talks and I'm like, maybe it gets a little fluffy. You're doing your job. I'm like, you know, he's doing it. And that job, and like, so there's this passage at the beginning of meditations from Mark's realis, like, today you're going to meet people who like suck and are dishonest and shitty and all, he lists all this stuff. He's basically saying, but then, and so it seems like depressing and cynical, but what he's basically saying is like, that's their job. Your job is to not be like that. Count yourself lucky that you didn't get the shit job. You didn't get the shit part in the

play. Yeah. You're the good guy, not the villain. Let him do their thing. And yeah, sometimes I go, this is just not just like this is their job like literally your manager or whatever but it's like this is a long-winded person yeah this is a person who has to make light of everything this is an extremely sensitive person right this is them doing what they do right what am i gonna do yeah and also i could try to make them not do that and probably have zero chance of success or you know like i'm i'm i'm pretty good when i talk to old people being like this is they're didn't tell me this story again you know like or they're gonna forget where they're going and it's gonna go into this other thing And that's what I signed up for when I agreed to have this conversation. Not in a negative way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you're doing you and I sought you out. Why am I trying to bring you back to this point as if we're going to win this conversation?

Winning the conversation is that I'm talking to an 80-year-old. Let's hear some 80-year-old. Let's hear an 80-year-old. Yeah, that's what we ordered. Yes. Here it is. Yeah, yes, thank you. The stones go, why are you expecting figs in winter?

That's their expression. go to the hardware store for milk. Yeah, like, you've known this person your whole life. You know that as good as they are, they're extremely fragile. Or they, in the end, they'll do the selfish thing. Like, this is them for better or for worse. Well, I, okay, so one of the things written on my mirror is don't get mad, learning something you already knew.

Yes. And that's true. And we can hold that. And then the great thing about having this semantic, embodied, emotionally brilliant wife, is she goes, and don't be mad at yourself. for being mad at learning something you already knew. It's like you have to, that grace that you extend to your parents for disappointing you in the same way, you can extend to yourself and be like, that's also okay.

Because there's something still not fully cooked that I get mad. Like, it's tricky. Like, parental approval does seem to mean more, even though you can go like, but I have plenty of approval. Like, that's the oldest story in the book. Right. There's one person not standing up for the standing. ovation.

Yeah, yeah. And you're like, right. So, unfortunately, you can't think your way through that. You kind of have to... No, that's true. It's like, hey, it's reasonable to that way, and it's reasonable that you are reacting this way. There's kind of this higher, lower self, and you can accept the lower self and still aspire to the higher self, but just not kick yourself for not always being there.

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eat. Thank you. What is being lost, though, and this is being lost in myself, like I was I was saying once in defensive TikTok, in the 90s or the 2000s, if we wanted to know, is it more fuel efficient to drive with the AC on or with the windows down, like aerodynamics on a road trip? We'd watch MythBusters. It was a 60-minute show, and it's 30% commercials or more. They're just stringing you along, not getting to the fucking point. And now it's a TikTok, and someone goes, I don't know the answer, but it's like, it's this. The problem is, and I think we're starting to infuse this into our experience, is like sometimes it's just fun to watch MythBusters, and sometimes it's fun to read The Ab's Diet, because how you are and what happens to your heart rate and the feeling of allowing someone else's consciousness to take over yours, it feels better than just knowing you should stop eating carbs.

Just reading is good. There may be a story in that book, and by the way, most of these books are rejects. There's a company called Books by... Well, there's an Elron Hubbard right by your head, which I thought is really a funny choice. So there's a company called Books by the Foot, and they just sell books for things like this. Some of these are books for my friends. Some of them my publisher sent me a bunch. But most of these are like you're buying them literally by the cubic foot.

Fast Food Nation, I thought of that last night. To fill them up. So these are not my books, and they can't come out. So this is just a set. But yeah, also, like, some of the most interesting things I've ever learned that I think about all the time, were in books that that was a tangent. Yeah. And so the idea of just distilling it,

just give me the nut of this thing. And it's like, that's not why we're reading. Chad J.PT won't know what would grab you. Like, I've read so many books, and I'm sure what's stuck with me for 40 years might have been, would certainly have been left out of the summary. Yeah.

For sure. Yeah. And also just reading in and of itself is good. But to bring it into what I do, going to a comedy show is good, laughing for an hour is good. Sinking up, not just with me, but with an audience is good. And, you know, you can also watch clips of me on TikTok,

and that will be the momentary little thing. That's fine, I suppose, but it's, but, you know, the big picture thing is better. I just think, like, for instance, speed reading is one of the most nonsensical things that I've ever heard. First of up, it's not real. I think it's a giant scam. But the idea of like, like, nobody's like, let me show you how to have sex faster. Or like, here's how you can scarf your food down and barely taste it, but you'll still get all the nutrients. Yeah.

Like, it is a pleasurable, beneficial, historically proven way to stretch your empathy, stretch your understanding of the world, learn things, decompress, disconnect. It is a thing you should enjoy doing. Now, if you don't enjoy doing it, you don't need to do it. There's other ways you can learn things. But the idea of like, I love reading so much. I want to fast forward through it is ridiculous. Like you're missing the point. Let's have sex faster.

You're right. And we all know, it turns out these things take practice, though. We know cooking a meal is like great for digestion and stuff. You're going to appreciate it so much more. We are now just post-mating. Chelsea Peretti has this great joke. I love where she goes, what happened that every meal I'm like,

what would a king eat? And I'm like, we're figuring out slowly that what we want isn't obviously what we need. It's not even what we really want. And I'm one of these completely, I have no evidence to back this up other than my inherent optimism. I think we're going to start figuring that out.

I think AI, I think all this stuff is going to help us realize that all the donuts in the, world isn't the answer. And there'd still be this yearning. And it'll help us see it more clearly. Yeah, it's not quite a bit, but I feel like we don't talk enough about how like bringing donuts to something is actually rude. You're like here, eat this thing you shouldn't eat that no one feels better after eating. I feel like, like it's a microaggression. Microaggression is not using the wrong pronoun. Microaggression is bringing. It's like, it'd be like just giving out cigarettes. Like, why are you doing this? Like, we shouldn't do it.

You know we shouldn't do. It's a crash. Yeah, exactly. That's very funny. I'm with you. It's not quite a bit because if anything about stand-up trends, I mean, that's a huge part. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that. But if you want to write a joke about how you should bring donuts to everything, there's your mailbook.

That's the bit. Like, you can't fill an arena saying don't bring donuts. You can take it from me. You can fill a small theater. But if you want to say, why are we only bringing donuts to sad things? Yeah. Bring donuts to everything. I mean, sold out.

Yeah, it's like when you're telling people what they wanted to do already, that's, that's exponential. And when you're challenging them and so, like, I think it's so funny people, like, because my stuff is done well, they go, oh, she just, he just did this for the money, you know? And it's like, yeah, I picked this obscure school of ancient philosophy because I thought it was my, my rocket chip to the top. Like, I couldn't have picked a less attractive thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, so sometimes people will be like, oh, they're just selling out. It's like, do you know how hard they're working to get people? Like, I think you think I have a headwind or a tailwind,

and I don't think you realize how, what a headwind this person is actually working with. No, it's true. It's funny that I also wrote down the book. You'll love this later. That is me trying to be like, is this where you want? But, yeah, who cares? And maybe it was when you were interviewing Taylor Tomlinson, And you said something that it caught me

and then I thought about it a lot since she said something and then you were like, no, I am one of the greats. Oh, wow. And you had this interesting discussion about it. But like, I think if people hear someone going like, I'm one of the best, I'm one of the best to ever do what I do, or I'm one of the greats, that feels like immediately egotistical. It's horrible.

I mean, out of context, I'm like, I don't know. Right, right. I don't know about that. But the discussion you ended up having was fascinating. I think you're like, because you get to do what you, you get to do the thing professionally and 99% of people don't get to do it. So statistically

you already... Oh, I see. I think that's how you were saying so... And then also I think that you enjoy it, that you're the best version of yourself. I can defend it, certainly. I would say that if I didn't think I was one of the greats, meaning in this context I'm like, obviously

there's these incredible outlying savants. I think the perspective of I'm one of the greats is a measuring of the degree to which I'm doing the comedy that I would like to see. Yes. And when I think, and I'm the only one that can gauge that, so I can't even listen if you say I'm one of the greats or if you say

I'm not one of the greats. I'm going like, if I was in the audience and I mean this very firmly, this is exactly what I would want the show to be. Yes. Without blemish. Yeah. Exactly what I want. And in that sense, I agree with myself. No, I'm not asking you to defend it because I was defending it for fun. Yeah, it was great. Like, I was like, oh, that's a really interesting way to think about it because one of the things

the Stokes talk about is like, if you want to win, pick a race that only you can win. If you're like, no, no, I have to be the best. And by that, I mean, I have to beat everyone. Then, like, you better hope you're the most genetically gifted. You better hope that the actual fastest person is sick that day. You better hope the win. You better hope a bunch of things go right. And sometimes you get it.

Yeah. And even if you do get it, you only get it briefly. Yeah. But if you're like, no, no, no. Winning for me is like you set up your own set of standards. You set up your own definition. Then it's much more likely you're going to have that. And then you are one of one and you are truly one of the only people to do it that way.

That's an even better explanation of what I'm saying. It's like in being Pete, I'm the best at that that's ever been. And that's a Bill Hicks thing. goes, if you're being 100% yourself, you'll be the only one that can do that, and you'll have supply and demand covered. It's also been something that I've been thinking about, I don't do a lot of psychedelics, but I think I thought of this when I was on psychedelics. I know, the guy that clearly does a lot of it. That's not true. I don't. But it's also written on my bathroom mirror. It says, flawless, meaning Pete is being Pete flawlessly, and I picture myself winning an

Oscar. Let's say I am mad that the flight is delayed. And I picture like Barbara Walter is interviewing me and being like, how did you know to eat that entire pizza to make yourself feel better? And I'm like, I just did what came naturally. And like if you think about like a beautiful Philip Seymour Hoffman movie where you like, like think about somebody watching you. Yeah. And then let's say my mother does something that upsets me. I picture my mom winning an Oscar. It's like at the end of your life, you're brought out on stage, and it's the Academy Awards, and everyone's giving you a standing ovation, and they just couldn't believe. And I do like doing it with, like, how did you know it would be so uniquely disappointing to your son when you said that? And it's

like, I just did what, it was my instinct, like every great actor. But that's a kind of a cheeky way to make fun of my mom, but really is really helpful to go, you're doing this flawlessly. Yeah. And apparently, we need you to be. this because I believe that everybody is a response of a system. My mom is not an isolated individual. She is a part of this mosaic. That's perfect. That's the other, I'm trying to work it out. I already did this like meaning of life slash God slash whatever joke has been something that is really thrilling to me that people like when I do it because that's what I've always wanted to do. And I'm like, okay, I have this one. It's what I'm going to do.

night. But then I need to write the next one. And I'm like, well, maybe I'll move away from using words like God and stuff. Because the thing I really want to say is kind of what we're saying here. And I've said it before. But it's, if I were you, I'd be you. And maybe you've heard me say that. I find that just incredibly powerful. It's like somebody that you really disagree with, you're like, it's the most obvious thing in the world. If you grew up in their body with their genetics, with their parents, with their school, with their trauma. If everything that had happened to them happened to you, you would be them. Yeah. And there's something really like, that's compassion. Yeah. It's also self-compassion. If I were me, I'd be me. It's like, yeah, everything that happened

to me, every trauma, every experience, every heartbreak made me into me. And then you start to see how everybody and everything is unfolding lawfully. Yeah. That doesn't mean logically or fairly. Or fun. fun or good. It's just, it's another way of saying, yes, thank you. Yeah. And no, I just was really struck by that conversation because there's also this thing where it's like, look, you've got a show on HBO, do you tour? You've done all these things. Like, how elite does this definition have to be? And why do we make it? Why do we continue to move it out of reach so we can feel shitty? Yes. And there's also just some level of like how many people would kill. I think about an, I've said this to someone, I was talking to someone, they're like, not only would they kill to be you,

they would kill to have gone to high school with you. Like, they would be telling people, oh, I know that person. Right, right, right. Like, that's a gratitude exercise. You're trying to get you. Yeah, and then we're like feeling insecure. We go, I'm not enough. Yeah.

And. Well, that's the seeking and resisting. Yes. The ego would rather be miserable than stop existing. Yeah. And if, you know, if you said, I've done enough, you sort of vanish. Yeah. You know, and people, that's intolerable.

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I don't know why, but I feel like you'll like this. we've been talking about the top of the mountain. I'm going to come down to the earth and just say something fun. Sometimes people go, like, there's no such thing as making it. I'm like, yes, there is. Like, there is? Of course there is. And it's fun.

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be where I am. There's a lot of people below me that have also made it. But you get this sense of, like, one day you wake up and you're just like, I'm doing it. And that's worth, this is sort of in defense of achieving. As much as I like to say, like, I'm totally. Oh, just surrender and surrender. I'm also like, no, it's fun to chalk up your hands and fucking climb the structure.

Yeah. And when people are like, there's no making it. It's always the next thing. I'm like, no, there's a difference. I've been in a lot of different. And I'm not even talking about hotels or flights or anything like or fancy food or knowing celebrities. There's a feeling where you go, I answered the call. Yeah.

Did you make it into the league or not? Like there's a certain number of people in the NBA at one time. Get in the league. And when you're there, and then if you make it long enough, you, you, like, most of the professional sports, if you, there's a certain number of years you play and then you qualify for, like, a pension, right? Like, that, like, to do that is an incredible achievement. And just because you didn't win a championship doesn't mean you're a fucking loser.

Like, you fucking did it and you did it at the highest level for an extended period of time. That's great. Yeah. And it's funny. I was talking to someone the other day who was like, they identified as a professional athlete, but they'd only played, like, minor league baseball. Yeah.

And, like, there was a part of me that was like, that doesn't count. And I was like, wait, no, you were getting paid to play baseball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The amount of people in the world that would be desperate to just do that for one pitch is, like, incredible. No, absolutely. And you did it. You fucking did it. You earned the thing.

Right. Give it to yourself. It can be your version of making it. Yes. But I'm like, you'll know. Yeah. And it's nice. Like, when can you call yourself a writer, right?

Or, like, an actor. When do they get to say, I'm a writer, direct? or sorry, I'm an actor-director, right? It's like, yes, on some level, there's no, like, club and you have to, like, qualify or whatever, like, a millionaire's do you have $1 million and $1? But at the same time, like, you'll know. Like, you'll know it's, there's people who are posing, and then there's people who are writers because they write professionally and people consume their writing.

It's not a black and white thing, but you'll know. Yes, you'll know. That's the same with comics for sure. Like, I'm an entrepreneur. No, you know. Like, it's a pretty big club and welcome. When you do the thing, you can be in the club. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And if we weren't keeping you out of the club, it wouldn't be a club worth being in because it'll feel so nice. If it wasn't hard, if it wasn't discouraging, everyone would do it and it would be worthless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's a reason that it's scarcity and difficulty create the value that you then seek. That's right. That's right. So anyways, on your show, you always ask people, like, when they laugh the hardest.

And so whenever I interview comedians, I tell them that there's this stoic named Chrysippus who dies of laughter. Oh, wow. And we're told he's on the list of unusual deaths on Wikipedia. Oh, wow. Which is quite an accomplishment, I would say. So he's sitting on his porch and we're told that a donkey walks up and starts eating figs out of his garden. And he says to the person who runs up to, like, I'm so sorry with my donkey. and he says, you should give that donkey some wine to wash down those figs.

And then he starts laughing at his joke so hard that he dies. And so I, my endless search is to find out what the fuck this joke means. Yeah. And then also I just enjoy, it's not just that he died of laughter. It's that he died of laughter at his own joke strikes me as something. Yes, something, there's something sage-like about that. Yeah. that's a guy realized, I mean, like, the ultimate joke, I hope I'm not forcing this, this is what

it made me think, is that God split into multiple things. That's a joke. So that's the cosmic joke, is that I appear to be over here and you appear to be over there. If you think of this is God's dream, that's a joke. We're all made of the mind of God. So it's funny that I think I'm over here and I'm worried that I'm going to die and you're worried that you're going to die and we're all talking about making it. That is funny. So he might have been dipping into, like, that donkey eating figs and drinking wine

is the same as me eating things and drinking wine. We're all asses. We're all asses, and it's all, it's, again, a very stereotypical, like, psychedelic experience is like, anything is everything. Yeah. And he's like, anything is everything. This donkey, and that could click in such a way

that it would be an enlightened kind of laugh. Well, it reminds me of your thing about, Like, if you think that we're all monkeys on a rock in space, everything is funny. Everything's funny. Like, everything is funny. Like, somebody made all this. We stacked these things on top of each other. Yeah.

We all had to be in the same place at the same time. Yeah. And we go and watch movies. And, like, it's all so dumb and ridiculous. Like, Seinfeld has a joke about how he's like, horses, they're like big riding dogs. They're big riding dogs. It's great. And you're just like, yeah, everything is ridiculous.

Yeah. Like, I just think of. the seriousness of people getting on horses for hundreds of years. Yes. They're big riding dogs. And then you watch, you watch, like, sci-fi movies, and they get on worms. And you're just like, they're taking this seriously as a mode of transportation. Yeah.

Like, you're just on the back of this wild animal is so dumb. Well, yeah. I just think of the silliness of, like, maybe that's what he's laughing at. For sure. I mean, this came to mind. It's like, I've never done this on stage. I don't think it's that funny. But, you know, back when it was new that you couldn't bring water on a plane.

Yeah. a TSA agent, this is only slightly true, but I'm going to tell it the slightly true better way. She goes, you can't bring that water on the plane. And I'm like, yes, I can. And then I drank it. That's, the water is still on the plane. Yes. I know that's dumb, but that is give that donkey some wine.

Yes. I also, you know, he's tapping into like, some comedians don't like, like, dissecting what a joke is. Yes. I think it's helpful. it's an incongruity. It's incongruous. It's ridiculous. To give a donkey wine.

So that's a joke. It's absolutely a joke. I just also love like, I can't, that's got to be close to the best. What if I die laughing now? Twice that joke killed somebody. Well, yeah, why is irony funny? Why are coincidence is funny? It's just because it's unexpected and weird.

But also I just love the idea of, that's like the best way to go, right? Like you laugh so hard you die. Yeah. I think, I mean, having a heart attack and laughing, it seemed very similar to me. There's like a lot of wheezing. I bet he was very red veins in the neck. It doesn't sound that because then what's happening, it's like choking on your favorite food. Yes.

You know what I mean? You're still choking. Right. Yeah, yeah. I guess I'm imagining he's just laughing and then dead. You're right. Like, he's laughed so hard, he gives himself a brain angerism and then is gone. It's opposed to this, like, exfixation.

Yes. Yes. Yes, you laugh and you dislodge something and you die. That sounds pretty good going out like that. I mean, I think about this a lot. I love that. I was just talking to somebody about the oldest joke they've ever found. And it was, you know, probably Babylon or something or Samaria.

And they found it on a scroll. And it was like, and it's about something awful because the past was awful. And they go, this guy buys a slave from a slave trader. And a week later, the slave dies. So the man goes back to the slave trader and says, hey, that slave, you sold me, died. And the slave trader says, that's weird. He never did anything like that when I had him.

That's the oldest joke we have. And it's so funny that, like, it's obviously unsuccessfully, but it's trying to soften a horror. Yes. It speaks to kind of like a... They both know this is bad. Like, at some level, what they're doing fucking sucks. I'm telling you, dude, it's everything I do I do for my family.

Like, to me, a good joke, a good comedy, good art. And I'm not, I like Mark Marin. I'm not Mark Marion going up and being cramudgeon and trying to tear down systems or Janine Garofalo or, I'm not going at it that way. And I like all of those people. I'm just saying like, offensive comedy to me is comedy where you come in thinking that food is great, sex is great, winning is great, and someone tells you food is great, sex is great, and winning is great, and you leave.

Does it question none of your assumptions? What a missed opportunity to talk about... That joke is talking about the horrors of slavery in their unconscious. And when I'm talking about Mark Wahlberg says everything I do is for my family, not to tip my own, but in the way that I'm doing what I want to be doing is I'm saying I'm a very sensitive person and it really hurts my feelings when people say things like that. it makes me very, very sad.

And I think it makes you sad, too. I don't mean you. I just mean, I think it makes us sad. So if we could, like, dislodge the rock in the river and like it while we're doing it, that's why I've tried to write jokes about a lot of, like, just unconscious delusions that we have. And don't think I don't think I have those. I'm built on leaky buckets from here. Well, there's two jokes.

meditations. One is intentional. One isn't. And I think one is, one is offensive for like offensive reasons. And then the other is offensive, I think, because of what it challenges. So the offensive one, he's cribbing someone else. But there was an old joke even then that was this guy is so rich, has so much stuff that he has no place to shit. He's like joking about the rich man who's so rich he has no place to shit. That his houses just filled with stuff is no place to shit. So it's got a curse word in it. It's whatever. I think it's mildly funny. My favorite joke in meditations, which I think he's deadly serious when he's saying. He goes, he goes, ask yourself, am I afraid of death? Because I won't be able to do this anymore. And this

implying whatever dumb shit you're doing. Oh, that's funny. You're like, I'm, I'm afraid. I don't want to die. I want to live forever. And you're currently at the DMV. Yeah, you hate it. And like, life actually sucks in some way or your life sucks. Yeah. And then you're like, but immortality is the key. and he's questioning whether this thing that you prize is actually so worth prizing. It's brilliant. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show.

We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. I don't know.