The Daily Stoic - Professor Jennifer Baker on Understanding Modern Stoicism

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

Ryan talks to Professor Jennifer Baker about her approach to teaching Stoicism, ethics, and political theory at the College of Charleston, what the Stoics might have said about driving a Mercedes instead of a Hyundai (or a Tesla), the challenges of teaching to today’s student population, and more.Jennifer Baker holds a Ph.D in Philosophy from the University of Arizona and B.A. in Philosophy from Brown. She brings her academic training and passion for understanding ancient wisdom to the courses that she teaches on ethical and political theory, environmental ethics and philosophy, business ethics, bioethics, and American philosophy. Her research is on virtue ethics, and she looks to ancient ethical theories as positive examples of how ethics ought to be done today. She explores philosophical ideas in her blog on Psychology Today: For the Love of Wisdom.✉️  Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom every day life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2,000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us dailystow.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars.

And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. My guest today is Professor Jennifer Baker, another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. My guest today is Professor Jennifer Baker,

who is a professor at the College of Charleston, where she teaches on ethics and political theory, and on stoicism. She considers herself a stoic. She teaches stoicism to our students. She's written a number of fascinating articles on her blog at Psychology Today called For the Love of Wisdom, all about stoicism. And she's written a number of interesting papers about stoicism that I've read. And I think you're really going to like this interview.

We talked about this at the end and I hope she's writing and working on a book about stoicism that she can bring her perspective and ideas and and quite frankly energy. She's quite energetic and fun and Not a stodgy old white dude talking about these ideas and I can see why she's so engaging and interesting to her students And I really wish we had more professors Study and ancient philosophy bringing ancient wisdom to young people in the vein of today's guest Jennifer Baker I hope you love this interview. Thank you to Professor Baker for taking the time. I'll just get right into it. I'm so excited to talk to you.

Me too, and I wanted to start with a philosophical question that you posed to your students sometimes, which is, what should a stoke drive? Should a stoic drive a Hyundai or a Mercedes? Yeah, so we got mad at me about this the other day and he's going to make a case for Teslas. Ah, sure. Yeah, that's a third argument. Let's consider all three, but what do you think? Well, I am with the stoics on this because the, you know, I just ask everyone I can. So maybe you can like, refute this. But once you get a nice car, you become a nice car guy.

And so my student even, I mean, I think I won this argument already because he admitted he's a Tesla guy. And then you have less freedom because as you can see, I mean, I test this all the time. The guys with nice cars are embarrassed in the normal cars. They look around like someone might see them. They'll say no to the ride. So it's actually replacing some of what you could think about yourself without the car. It's going to give you more status, more of a thrill, but I think those things can take away from what you could do for yourself. Yeah, there's a story I tell in the discipline book about Kato, one of his heroes. I'm forgetting his name, but basically these men are sent to bribe this Roman politician,

and you know, he welcomes them into his relatively small house, and they walk into the kitchen, and he's there boiling turn-ups, and they go, it's a dead-end trying to bribe this guy. He doesn't care about money. And there is, I think, a certain independence that comes from deliberately and proactively rejecting certain luxuries in life. Uh-huh, yep. And it may not be a person's weakness.

I mean, I know you know all of this, but you know yourself, know you know all of this, but you know, you know yourself, you know, so you can like, stave off becoming dependent on something making you feel too important that's external to you. If you know, that's your weakness. And then one thing that's so flexible about stoicism is if that's not your weakness, you know,

you could be like, you know, gold dripped all over you, and it's not gonna make any difference because you could toss it off at a moment. Yeah, I feel like Marcus really is would say, you should drive the Hyundai or you should walk. Kato would say you should walk, Marcus really is would say drive the Hyundai.

And Sennaka would say drive whatever you can afford as nice, drive the nicest car that you can reasonably afford. The nicest, but what about, I mean, the warning about gold wine goblins, it's like the nicest, but not an impressive car, because you don't want to be impressive for the wrong reasons. And I also, if you have two nice cars, you do think of yourself differently than other people.

And then you've just lost it all. Like to me, the most valuable thing is really feeling like a brother or sister to everybody. And there are some ways that you become intimidating or you know, you don't seem like one of. So I'm worried about that. No, it's hard to feel like you're just like everyone else as you pull into valet in a Ferrari or a Lamborghini.

Yeah, and people want to, because you even see them try. But it's not, it's like too late. That's too late. He takes the bus, he takes the bus when he travels and it's like, then there's no effort. Do you know what I mean? It's not like I'm making this up. You know, you literally, you know, get all the secrets and get treated like one of if

you travel on the bus. Well, I was thinking about this because the first car that I ever bought with my own money, I was just starting college. I bought a Hyundai and then I sold it and I bought a much cheaper car a few years later. But now I do drive a Mercedes. It's seven years old and I bought it used and it's diesel, it gets super good gas mudge, whatever.

It was expensive, but it wasn't. There are more expensive Hyundai's than what I paid for this car, just like I say. But I remember one of the reasons that I bought the car, and maybe this is the rationalization, but I would be curious what you think about it is, I was driving to the airport early one morning. I live in rural Texas, I'm driving to the airport. I was driving a

2008 Toyota Tacoma and I was right near the F1 track, which is where the circuit of America's races you see all these super fancy cars come in But there's even there even building an apartment complex on this racetrack that you can park. It's a luxury condo high-rise for your car, because these Saudi princes and stuff that bring their cars to race and strap. Anyways, I'm driving by it's early in the morning, and I hit this puddle in my car, sort of hydroplanes. And in this moment, the car is shaking. I feel like it's gonna tip.

And the tinnus of my old Toyota, it struck me in this moment that why was I driving a less safe, less new car when I could easily without even thinking about it by not just a nice car, but a car with the fanciest protections in it. And it was a no-brainer to me. Yeah, no, yeah, I get that.

That's why I use the Hyundai as an example, because you know, of course you'd want it to be safe. I mean, my students and I were, we convinced ourselves that you could have a car as a stoic. So we did, like, you know, get to that. And then again, you know, it's such a flexible view. Like what's working for you. I mean, as long as all these options are presented,

it's like, you know, are you feeling enough of a similarity with normal people, you know? Are you feeling enough of similarity with normal people? You know, are you in a car that's making you distracted by feeling unsafe? Well, to go to the Tesla, the Tesla argument, so I drive this car. Most days, my wife drives an F-150 and we both would very much like an F-150 the new, the electric one. Because it can charge your, can charge house, and it's electric, which is obviously better for the environment we drive a lot.

And this goes to the third part of your argument, which is actually should a stowa have an electric car instead. And I think if you're making the environmental argument, of course, you obviously should. And then we went to the dealership and we looked at the price tag of this electric car. The base model is currently priced because of the various shortages and the logistical crisis. The base model of the F-150 lightening that you can actually get your hands on. So not in theory, but like what's going for the dealership.

Is $107,000. And that was where my interest in supporting the environment ran headlong into my Skox financial frugality. Right, yeah. You did some cost benefit analysis. Yes. No, that's great. I do think I've explained that recently to students that it can be frustrating because

you don't get an answer from stoicism. Yeah, there isn't one answer. And I've had even ethicists ask me, you know, worried about flying to conferences that kind of, the same kind of, especially in what's best for the environment. And it is kind of a frustrating answer to say, well, why don't you go first and figure it out? But I do think that's, you know, we figure out what works. Then we advertise it.

Other people check us. You know, are we being consistent? Have we missed something? I think that publicizing what we're doing can be really helpful. But yeah, it's a frustrating answer, especially when ethics is treated like someone who some people know the formula and they can just do some calculations and return with what's right. Yeah, no, it not only do the Stoics sort of just pose these things as questions or we get this like in Marcus Aurelius' case, we're only getting the ethical quandaries that

he personally had, right? He's not even thinking about it like an academic philosopher that's going, what about this, what about this, what about this? He's going, well, today I was dealing with this and so that's what I'm talking to myself about. But I think the really tricky part with the Stoics is then Seneca comes along, and he answers the questions quite brilliantly, and then acts totally differently in his personal life,

and then you're just like, you know, you're just like, oh, well, you know, Seneca has 300 ivory tables that he used for entertaining and parties. So you're like, this is the guy that says slavery resides under marble and gold, and then throws Gatsby-esque parties at his mansion subsidized by Nero, and you're just like, but what am I supposed to do about what kind of car I should try? Yeah, I mean, I just think that's really a puzzle. I really would not expect someone to be interested in that, in presenting one set of recommendations and not following them.

I would feel like that would really be unattractive. I would assume friends would call you out on that. I don't know. I really don't understand. It's tricky. I do feel like he wrestles with it a little bit. I think his argument is that wealth is a preferred indifferent. So if you can afford a nice car, why not do it? You don't get to take the money with you when you die. But then he also says, he says, a philosopher can be rich, provided that the money is not stained in blood. And you're like, um, is there money more stained in blood

than the fortune you derived working for Nero? Yeah, right. I mean, I think I am a little embarrassed by examples like that because, um, gets associated with being so comfortable and defending status quo, like social arrangements. I was really thrilled with a new book called Existential Flourishing by Irene McMullen. And she suggested that when we look at virtue ethics, we really think of one component of our practical rationality is focused on justice. And I was like, here we go. Wouldn't that be nice? Some norms about justice. I mean, of course, they'll be uncomfortable for everyone to live up to, but it has, you know, it is missing, isn't it?

It is missing, isn't it? Yeah, and at the same time, I think philosophy can often, I'm reading Peter Singer's new book, or he republished the one about the life you can save. And it's like, you know, if you start to think about what your money, once you begin to think about how your money can be used for good, money, once you begin to think about how your money can be used for good, almost every extraneous thing becomes so morally fraught as to be almost paralyzed. Like there was one effective altruist I was reading about who was saying that things should be priced in terms of how many children's lives could be saved at the same amount. So if you're buying a $200 backpack, but you could also for $200 by a mosquito net

that would save the life of a child in Africa, you know, are you telling yourself it's $200? Is backpack, are you telling yourself that the backpack is actually one dead African child? Which is philosophically and rhetorically quite provocative, also would be impossible to go through life if that was one's frame of. Yeah. We would have no markets. I mean, I used to explain Singer by talking about the sparkles in toothpaste, you know,

the little things that we come to expect that where the resources could be used otherwise. But the Stokes are a pretty pro-market, I think, because of the benefits of general affluence. I mean, that I understand better than Seneca'srasi or misdescriptions of himself. Yes. I just think of markets as like natural phenomenon. I mean, they aren't going to be ideal. The people we want to win aren't going to win, but they are sustaining when it comes to just general affluence,

general survival, as strange as they are. Well, no, I think that's an interesting point of the Stokes and the markets because the Stokes were in the market, right? The Zeno sets up the Stoa in the Athenian Agora, literally in the market. And the difference I would say between that choice and the choice

of say, the Sinex is about participation, right? Do you, do you look at this thing and you say, this is hopelessly corrupt and broken and, and actually the only moral choices to, is to, opt out entirely, or do you try to find kind of a reasonable and practical middle ground within a complex morally fraught world and do the best that you can? I would argue the Stoic say that, Marcus and Meditations, because stop going around expecting Plato's Republic. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, no and meditations, you guys, stop going around expecting Plato's Republic. Right. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, no, I agree.

I mean, some of the work I've been trying to do is trying to come up with norms for the marketplace where we kind of replace, I mean, I know you know this, but we really get told a lot of stories about markets. Don't we like about ownership and rights and meritocracy and stuff? And they just don't hold up. Like, I don't, I don't find many people actually pushing them in real life because you know they know of all these exceptions or their own story will be an exception. So yeah, I've been trying to like articulate a norm for what we're doing in markets and it might be I'm just thinking you know we really are contributing to information

when we participate in the price system, information other people use immediately, and it's good if it contributes to affluence generally long-term. And you know, that's like really rough and approximate. It doesn't make like any one activity necessary. You know, it's not like, sorry guys, I have to make this trade, you know, I mean, nothing, no urgency like that is attached to any particular business behavior, but it does kind of complement the system is sustaining over time. And I want more affluence in the world. So I think of markets as like a promising way to get us more affluence in the world,

even with all the unfairness that you just described, that's part of them. Well, one of the things I think about too is it's like you can accept the market as a mechanism, as a means of pulling people out of poverty, creating global affluence, all of that, and you can see it for what it is. And then I think the Stokes would say, just as the Stokes would say, look, there's this institution and Marcus Rios probably

would have preferred Rome to be a republic, but it wasn't, so it's Enica. But then one gets to the Stokes would say, decide how you are going to behave as an individual inside that system. So how are you going to behave as a business person, how are you going to behave as a customer? This is where we have the most individual choice.

And at least that's like what I try to think about with the stuff that I make is like, okay, how am I going to make it? I just went through this choice where we do these, like, we're actually just rolling out a leather bound edition of meditations that I got the rights to. And I had a manufacturer in Belarus that could make them quite affordably. We had a great relationship as there's, you know, I like the quality of it. But then Belarus is indisputably complicit in the invasion and looting of Ukraine and the decision about, well, do I want to do business with a person in

that country? No, but that decision to switch to a different one means that I now pay about one, no, two and a half times as much per copy. And so I think to me that where, like I don't control what's happening in Ukraine, I don't control globalization, I don't control any of that, but I do control who I decide to do business with within reason.

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, that's exactly what I was hoping happened if people thought like Stoics about markets that you could opt out and do things differently even when other people were just emphasizing you to you the loss. I mean, it kind of suits you that a lot to me. I mean, as if all we can focus on is the loss there. That always seems so strange to me that they see us in agreement, you know, as if there's only one

perspective and we're supposed to generate surplus all the time. You are playing your role unless you're generating surplus. But of course, that's not true, but the Stoics, I just think they're helpful with the notion that external goods, money, markets, they're all in difference to virtue just because it gives you a chance to pull away from those prudential calculations. I mean, a lot of us don't ever do that. We only think in terms of practicality. And so that you're able to see

what would be practical or max my surplus and then choose something else. Like, you know, I just think that's sophisticated. Like, that's the goal. Yeah, and I think, you know, we often get very distracted both as, I think philosophers, but as people with these sort of abstract questions about like, you know, globalization good or bad.

And then it's like, but you're just buying stuff off Amazon that they made in China, right? So it's like, you're acting as if Jeff Bezos is the one who is the only one with moral decisions on his hands. And then you're condemning him for the decision that he made as if you're notning him for the decision that he made, as if you're not faced with a countless number of smaller, but actually lower stakes, ethical and moral questions about how you participate in the markets. And you are, you know, you're

like, should a deed as fire Kanye West. And then you're like, but you're totally ignoring who you do business with, how you do business. You're wearing Kanye West clothes at this moment as you're condemning a deed is for not breaking ties with this person. Yeah, it's supposed to be difficult, right? I mean, it's not supposed to be a fun debate between my, my middle schooler is big into those big proclamations about things being wrong and then, you know, she does not examine. I've been trying to point out to her exactly what you just said, how much,

you know, we're participating in what she's like, to crying to her friends. But I love stoicism for that too. It's like, uh, sorry, we can't simplify it. The Bahamas What if you could live in a penthouse above the crystal clear ocean working during the day and partying at night with your best friends and have it be 100% paid for? FTX Founder's Sam Bankman Freed lived that dream life, but it was all funded with other people's money, but he allegedly stole.

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And I wonder how much of that for the Stoics came from their own root awakening, right? Like, so they begin as these kind of like, gadflies, right? They're, they're like talking about things and every once in a while they'll advise a powerful person. You know, but as stoicism goes from Greece to Rome, and then the philosophers go from these thinkers to being senators and consoles,

and then emperors, you know, they're like, oh, like now we're making the decisions. And it turns out it's complicated. And there's a lot of factors that you have to weigh. And I can't be so glib about this because, you know, it's an imperfect world and there are only imperfect solutions. Yeah. And if we are glib, even then, as long as we incorporate it and justify it, into our practical rationality, something we actually practice or test with others, I feel like that's even safe too. You have to start somewhere, but then you pay attention

to the feedback. I've been amazed by how Fronisis, which used to be, I mean, I really feel like I got laughed at for saying Fronisis a few times at Ethics conferences. It is like on fire right now. It's in moral education, so common. I was at a conference this weekend. I feel like I heard it talked about a hundred times.

Apparently in business research, like business ethics, for an thesis is a really big deal. Unless I'm rewinding people through what that means. Well, for an thesis would be like the Stoics use for an thesis as the idea that you need a thinking person to work these things through. So nothing will be static, no formula, no set of 10 rules that don't need explanation or something. We might have rules, we might say glib things, but we're going to have someone to put it in context and work out the puzzles and then really test it in your own life because it's easy to say things hard to live up to things.

And it was always kind of ignored. Even, I mean, I think Aristotelian virtue ethics really left it out for a few decades. So it's kind of, I don't know, an ugly word. Aristotle's not real clear about it. The Stokes are a lot more clear about it. But I'm thrilled that, I mean, maybe it seems like common sense,

but I'm thrilled that it's no longer absent and getting a lot of attention. Psychologists are also looking at it now. It's Christian Christianson has with these other researchers come up with kind of a four part of account of Aristotelian Furnesis. They're kind of more Aristotelian than stoic. That is going to be, I mean, capable of being operationalized or going to do interventions to test it. I mean,

it's like on the plane field. And I really did used to get laughed at for bringing up an ancient idea in any contemporary context. Well, no, I think, you know, people thought and have thought for a long time that philosophy is this kind of abstract impractical thing. And I do think it's been cool to see this resurgence and to read some of your writing where it's like, no, no, these are precisely the questions that philosophers should be helping people answer, and that regular people need to be thinking about these things. That philosophy isn't this thing that you do in the safety of a classroom, but it's actually how you do it in your life.

Yes, yes, yes. And the questioning, I mean, yeah, we all have to question everything. It's like we need everyone to do that, the more the better. want to do that, the more the better. Yeah, yeah. Like you opened that paper that you sent me that I read where people were like, oh, this is all very interesting, but you actually use it in your life. You know, like they were almost shocked that stoicism had practical applications. This is what I was reading into it, that stoicism had practical implications because This is what I was reading into it, that stoicism had practical implications because so little of philosophy seems to.

Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder if that was the Hyundai thing, but yeah, I mean, I try and use it. I don't seem like a stoic, so that's always a challenge. And I'm not an old white guy or a bro. I'm not a bro. I mean, it's funny how there's so much overlap now and so much uptake in like the, you know, athletic community. Yeah. When it comes to stoicism, I mean, I just find that so fascinating. And one thing I've

noticed, I mean, they're just, I'm so curious about what you've figured out because you're really seeing what people take up when it comes to stoicism. And they're just, obviously, they're focused on athletes so much, heroes, aerostat, all too. But these are the examples. And so it does make sense that contemporary people who focus so much on, you know, physical excellence would find it resonant, but are there parts they don't like? I mean, you know, part of it seems very school-dead to me.

It does fit well with being an old mom, you know? I mean, it, it, there's not like a bad fit when it comes to me. So I just wonder if there are parts that aren't appealing to the people who are following you on Instagram and Fitzpiration. I mean, definitely, I feel this, it's like, look, and sometimes people assume that I only wanna talk about the parts that people wanna talk about, but I experience it.

Like so, so when, if I want to talk about how stoicism helps one be more disciplined or more resilient or ignore insults or criticism, how to sort of be more powerful, people are sort of all about that. And then if I go, hey, the philosophy also talks about why you should give a shit about someone in the middle of a pandemic. You know, people are like, why are you politicizing stoicism?

As if the stoics weren't literally politicians and if discipline and justice weren't next to each other in the for a car no virtues. Right. Yeah. I mean, I speakative markets. I mean, I don't know if you see it this way, but one thing I forgot to mention is that, you know, if we care about other people, we just care about other people. You know, it's not just like, however we can reach them through markets is, you know, we just want people to be doing well, like in general, all people. That's so interesting. Yeah, I would want people to be doing well, like in general, all people. Um, that's so interesting. Um, yeah, I would expect people wouldn't like all the components of stoicism.

I mean, it just would be so surprising if it like, um, you know, it was palatable to people right away, because it's so counterintuitive. Um, there's just so much that's different than we get, you know, from common sense. Like, uh, I guess athletes really know what it's like to sacrifice, long-term payoff, that type of thing. But of course, it's gonna be harder to relate to people when you're that special. Yeah, of course.

I think it's important that we have to realize that the virtues are not independent of each other. The sacrifice that goes into dieting and training and delayed gratification and all of that stuff that makes you able to hit a ball really far or to run really fast. If that's the only outcome of the training that you're doing, you're probably losing track of where justice and wisdom act as a check against that virtue. And so I've talked about this before and people probably get mad.

They will get mad to bring it up, but I'll talked about this before, and people probably get mad, they will get mad to bring it up, but I'll prove the point by bringing it up. Like, is there a certain courage in deciding I'm not going to get vaccinated despite the health consequences, but to the moral outrage, potential economic punishments, you know, the anger of the crowd, right? Is there a certain courage in standing alone and saying, I'm not going to do this thing, you can't make me? I guess, right? I mean, that would be a scary thing. And we should probably have, we should probably respect that in isolation. But the Stoics would say, justice and wisdom,

right? You're standing, you're choosing to die on a hill that's based on no scientific evidence whatsoever. And then, too, you are choosing to think only of yourself and not how your decisions impact what the Stoics referred to as the common good. And so therefore, the act of courage is not virtuous, it is morally bankrupt. And I think people want to pick and choose from the Stoics using only the parts that make them better at what they want to get better at.

And I think it's easy to ignore the duties and obligations and responsibilities inherent in being a person of the world. Yeah, explaining yourself. I mean, you know, explaining why you don't trust the research that exists, when, you know, which exact research you don't trust, why people would still use the same medical system, same doctors, but believe that they're wrong about this.

You know, just explain yourself. Like I'd be open to the argument, but as far as I heard, primary care physicians got none of that and did a lot of begging. And I mean, you can always opt out. I would admire that. Someone who completely helped out, opted out.

Well, you know, they're willing to opt out of the vaccine, but not the medical treatment. Not the system. They inevitably need it. Right, right, right. The system that they're like burdening and insulting, you know, yeah. I think that's wrong. I mean, I just think that's like playing wrong. But so that clinicians like plain wrong. It puts it in the conditions of that position. Well, of course, of course. And so that's where I think Stoicism gets interesting

in this popularity is that people are really interested in the parts that challenge them in some ways, but then when they get challenged in other ways, like the political tribe that they belong to, or the comforts that they're accustomed to, or having to sacrifice, or do things on behalf of people they don't know, or people they don't like, then all of a sudden, you know, who are these people to tell me what to do, right? And I guess I've just said, like, the purpose of stoicism is not to make you

a better sociopath. Yeah, right. Yeah, and I can see how really strong, physically excellent people really will see themselves reflected in Stoic's description of good, but yeah, you'd have to internalize the whole thing to really be using stoicism. And also focus on your weaknesses, like you just said.

And I actually had a question. I mean, I'm just so like into your work and what you're doing. I talk about it all the time. All my students follow you. All my kids, friends follow you. But I'm surprised people don't need from you more advice on how to get along with others. Oh, interesting. Like, I've been working on like kind of the self-conception of police is one thing I've been looking at

from a kind of stoic lens. And I feel like some self-conceptions can lead to predictable like, you know, tensions, you know. So I'm just, of course, suggesting we all think of ourselves as some self-conceptions can lead to predictable tensions. So I'm just, of course, suggesting we all think of ourselves as progressers towards virtue. And what I hear over and over and over is that it's really difficult on relationships to play that role in society. It's like that's a fascinating.

I mean, so your self-conception can have an impact on, I mean, I would think of it as the still a good of harmony, you know, and I'm surprised there isn't more like requests for help with that. I don't know if people don't have problems or, yeah. My father was a police officer and like, I have just as a result of that, like a real intense dislike for what you might call sort of like cop energy. Yeah. The sort of like, well, I'm the enforcer of the law.

I'm also the interpreter of said law. Yeah. The authority is here. Yeah. I have the feeling of carrying a weapon around. I have the, I am trained to be suspicious of other, you know, that kind of energy, I just really, like, whenever I can sense how triggering it is to, when I hear whatever other manifestations of it in life are.

But one of the things I think about from the Stokes that I have tried, like, I think, you know, if you think stosism is kind of about an indifference or a superiority, you're missing what I think Mark Serelius talks about most beautifully in meditations, you know, about being strict with yourself, tolerant with others, about really trying to practice empathy, really trying to be tolerant, leave mistakes, he says, leave mistakes to their makers, kind of the opposite of that cop energy, even though he's coming from this place of absolute authority and the ability to deal out life and death.

So that doesn't corrupt and destroy his character. I think that's why he's talking about empathy and love and compassion and all these things over and over again is because he doesn't want his heart to harden up, which I think is what tends to happen to people in positions of that kind of authority of the state. Is you just start to look at other people as the enemy or as almost parasites and you end up destroying yourself

in the process. Oh yeah, I mean that metaphor, I mean maybe your dad was against this too because I meet a lot of officers who they also are like you, they're like, oh come on, that's not gonna work on me. You know what I mean, just like look at that. But there's that metaphor that police are the sheep dogs and the rest of us are sheep.

And they're like, yeah. And so I can trust that to stoicism. It's like, it's probably better we not think of ourselves as sheep or sheep dogs or wolves. It's just like, those things are powerful. They really are attractive and powerful. They work in our thinking and we should probably should avoid that classification. No, I told you that.

I told you that. For others good. No, no, you think about the self, the identity in captured and say like the blue lives matter flag, right, which is there's that thin blue line in the flag that's supposedly protecting the people from disorder and chaos. You're, they are seeing themselves as this sort of agent of order and power

as opposed to something, like they are inherently seeing themselves as the embodiment of violence on behalf of people as opposed to like a shield, right? A shield would be a more apt metaphor. And yeah, this is in, obviously the Roman Empire goes to this too, you know, the Roman Empire goes through this too. The view you have to have of yourself to justify being a hegemon is probably one of those

masks that eats at the face to borrow that expression. Oh, wow. It's inherently corrupting. Yeah, that's so interesting. I mean, so it's never supposed to be easy, right? So if you're always sure you're on the right side, there's no way. And then the mass that eats at your face is so amazing

because one thing I've looked at is how a lot of the codes of ethics for police departments are so ridiculously demanding. It's hard to believe it's not kind of tongue and cheek. So it'll be things like, always is helpful. Acts with the utmost, I mean, you know, stoic kind of sounding things, but also like completely unrealistic for any person let alone, like, you know, a 24 year old. And that's, you know, what I'm against.

Like, I see the stoics as, you know, they inspire us in some ways, wow, we can try to be good all the time, like really, like acting normally, we can try to be good, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also see them, and I've looked at Vice Admiral Stockdale on this. They also deflate, a good stoic will deflate these ridiculously demanding expectations that we really buy and are told about.

And you know, I think those are incredibly destructive. And the shame people have when they don't live up to the high, I mean, I kind of think this across the board. Like stoicism can keep us from having, it's so demanding, but it can keep us from having, like, harmfully demanding accounts, you know, imposed on us or internalized bias. No, I think that's really profound. I know people don't think that way all the time, yeah. I mean, one read of meditations, I've talked about this before, is Marcus really is not setting impossible standards for himself.

He is struggling to meet the standards that he has set for himself. So when Marcus says, like, Marcus isn't saying, let's say he's talking about temper. So if we, if we realize that he's writing to himself with no view towards publication, then he's probably talking about when he says, you know, you've got to stop losing your temper or whatever. He's not lecturing someone else. He is admonishing himself after having lost his temper.

So if we, if we see the still, it's like we were talking about Seneca as his hypocrite earlier. I mean, maybe Seneca had a sense that he was falling short. And that this was something he was really struggling with. And it's only because only his essays and letters survived none of his internal thoughts were admissions that we don't get how much he wrestled with that thing. That's so great. He's like, what do I do with all this ivory? Yeah, exactly.

How do I unload all this ivory? Yeah, I like that. And that's how stoicism helps me at like kind of lowers expectations. I mean, there's a lot of stuff I don't care And that's how stoicism helps me at like kind of lowers expectations. I mean, there's a lot of stuff I don't care about that my friends care about. Like it, because I try and focus on stoicism and I kind of buy it, it's just hard to get caught up

in things that really, I mean, a lot of perfectionism, I actually, I wanted to ask you about that because you're so productive and you're so inspirational when it comes to you know getting the obstacles out of, I shouldn't say obstacles, but you know, realizing what you can accomplish in a day using the obstacles, that I would think perfectionism would be a burden or a temptation. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I don't think perfectionism is really my issue. I think I struggle more with, like, I sort of set certain output goals or, like, a level of, like, performance.

Yeah. And then I have trouble not seeing those as set in stone, right? And so like I'll get into a rhythm and I won't necessarily perceive how I am burning myself out by like sticking to that rhythm or more often burning other people out by sort of expecting them to keep up with me as I do that. sort of expecting, you know, them to keep up with me as I do that. And, and so, you know, realizing, you know, like you're already one, you know, like you're already one, you already

did most of what you set out. If you can't adjust your pace or relax a little bit, like your, what was the point of all of it? Yeah, you don't want the task to take you over. You don't want to, you don't want to shoot the task. Yeah, right. But I mean, on the other hand, like setting goals, I mean, that's incredibly effective. When you were first saying, like, you know,

you wear yourself out, I'm like, oh, okay, well, that sounds pretty stoic and fine, but then not if other people aren't enjoying it around you. Yeah, it's just like there's no, nobody's, nobody's like, I think about this as a very minor example. I was just talking to Gary Vaynerchuk about this. Like being punctual is important. It's rude to make people wait. It's good to, when you say, hey, I'm gonna be there at two, be able to have the discipline to know

that means I need to leave by 115, and I need to travel promptly, et cetera. Being on time is important, but if your insistence on being on time makes you and other people miserable or anxious because you have created a world in your head in which arriving at 2.03 pm is a moral sin or a personal failure. You have created a kind of strictness and fragility that will not allow you to flourish in a world where the vast majority of things, including when you arrive,

is not in your control. Yep, you've made yourself less free. You've kind of like given some of your identity over to this idea you have about you being a person who's always on time. And then, as we age and stuff happens, I mean, that would be heartbreaking, to kind of lose what you associated yourself with. Yeah, it's like they're almost preparing you

for preparing you for future elves. Take the L as the kids tell me. Yeah, no, no, I love that expression. I use it all the time now. It's good. Well, kids do help you with that too. Like, you know, it's like, again, to go to Punctuality. This is what I, it's like, okay,

we told someone we would meet them at 2 p.m. And we, you know, we get the kids in the car, do all the stuff. And then the kid falls asleep at 1.45 pm as you're getting close. Like, if you have decided that it's unacceptable for you to be late and you don't have the security to say, hey, sorry, kid fell asleep.

We're gonna be 25 minutes late as we wait for them to wake up. You know, you have now put the health slash happiness of your kid in the back seat, literally to, you know, some arbitrary meeting time for something that you're not, you don't even have to do. So it's like, I think, I think kids help you deal with, I heard one parent describe it as unavoidable reality. Yes. Yeah. They're just like, you're not in charge, man, and you never work. Right.

They're embarrassing. I mean, animals are embarrassing too. Pets are good for this too, but yeah. It's such a challenge. Like, I mean, that's such a balance. You know, I mean, you want to have some expectations for everybody. And ones that aren't, you know, defendable all the way down. It's like, guess what?

This is a social custom we abide by. You know, I mean, you want to have, it was laughing with my students the other day. I make my kids dress up for church. I'm like, I'm sure they'd rather not do that, but sorry, it's a social custom. I tell them sometimes, like, old people seem to really like this. You know, it's like straight and bow ties and stuff like you're going to wear this thing. But I mean, if you want to be in harmony with other people, there's the problem of being a stoic making you so odd.

There are odd things about stoics. So we're supposed to experience this harmony with others. And I get how we wanna live up to our own expectations, social expectations, but as a stoic, I mean, it's like this encouragement to figure everything out for yourself, the reward is supposed to be you get along better than you would otherwise, but you have made yourself different in having a stoic perspective. I mean, I guess the Epicureans all live together, you know, and so kind of got around this problem. The stoics were always around on stoics.

Well, what do you see the relationship between Stoicism and your religion? I'm not sure what you are, but I get asked that question a lot, and as someone who is not religious, I don't always have a good answer. But how do you see those two things connecting to each other? You know, pretty easily. I don't, I mean, I'm probably not that good of a theologian, but I never really experienced any conflicts in the way the stoic approach helps me is with I like the routine. I like the community. I like the focus on beauty.

I like, I like how much our church helps other people and they've helped us too. I mean, I'm just into all of that, you know, so I can't imagine life without it. And so I really don't see any tension. My advisor was like that too, Julie Annas. She didn't see any any tension between the two. My students are always pointing out how religious the stoics are. That's been their thing lately. They're like, don't skip over Zeus. Like, we'd like to talk about Zeus more, please. I definitely skip, you know, I just don't, that's not what I focus on in the Stoics, the divine. Yeah, they talk about God, the gods, less than God,

but there was clearly, I think the Stoics would have liked the concept of, or found agreement with the concept of a higher power. And if only because the concept of a higher power posits so clearly that you are not the highest power. Right, yeah, right, that's right. And you know, the idea that you have to get your life organized and that you have a second nature, I mean, that's not, that's not so difficult to accommodate to, all sorts of religious beliefs.

It's like we have some work to do on ourselves, participating in this larger system that very comfortable, knowing I don't understand, on a minute by minute basis. But the idea that you need to build that second nature in your character, I just hear it repeated all the time. Several religions. Well, I am, you know, obviously the Stoics and their relationship with the Christians was not a good one. There's some irony that not long after the shoe is on the other foot and then the Christians was not a good one. It's there's some irony that not long after the shoe

is on the other foot and then the Christians are the ones doing the persecutions of the philosophers. Right. Maybe there's a lesson there too of just sort of living and letting live. Yeah, yeah, oh, that's so interesting. That would be a good book.

That would be a really good book. How do you, you mentioned this earlier, you said that you were a big fan and that your students were, which I appreciate. I, from my experiences, that would be the minority of academics in the philosophy department. So I don't know that my work is that well received of my work.

Oh, really? Oh, no way. I mean, I talk a lot about stoicism, but I've never heard a bad word. When we were graduate students, we knew we weren't the ones to do it, obviously, but we literally used to daydream about someone bringing this to people.

I mean, just like hours and hours of together being like, how could this reach people? We knew it couldn't be through the work we were reading, you know, no offense to that work, but we knew it was not going to be through academic articles. Or even, I mean, for you to have made these primary texts of interest to people, I can't even go back and think of how impossible that seemed to me, because it's become true, and you're focused on doing all this reading and the reading recommendations. I mean, we really, once we started,

once we started seeing what seemed right about stoicism, that was like our, you know, interest. And you've just done it. It's amazing. That's interesting. Yes. Sometimes people go, oh, you'd be better off reading the originals. And I go, by all means, you know, like you could do that.

Yeah. I would love to do that. They're really easy. Yeah. They're so easy on your own. They like need no explanation. I was thinking though I'm glad you're not a professor because Listening to a bunch of podcasts of yours. I you are not worn out like a professor

I mean do you realize that like if you were grading 100 I had 120 students last semester There's just like kind of weirdiness and and when you have students who don't want to be there, which I have very few of, I mean, in fact, I think that's happening less and less. I think students are starting to be there if they want to be there, you know? But there's just something, professors seem so embattled to me often.

And you're so fresh and the conversations are so great and organic in the podcast. I've been like, oh, I'm glad he's not doing this in class. Is that the grinding part of being an academic? Is just like the load of the work? Yeah, I've been surprised by it. I mean, it's so much like kind of,

it's so much repetition. It's a much repetition. It's a lot of trying to motivate people who really don't wanna learn. That's hard. I mean, it doesn't matter how old they are. It's hard. The punitive nature of the test, and it seems like young people

are getting better and better at advocating for themselves. I'm all for that, that's fine. But they wanna know why they missed half a point. They'd like me to put everything in percentages. It's a, but like, I mean, they want to know why they missed half a point. They'd like me to put everything in percentages, you know, it's sure I'm resisting. But it really does seem to wear, wear people down and you aren't speaking spontaneously, you know, I mean, so if it's Wednesday, you're doing Epicurus and you, you know, might not at all be in the mid-June Epicurus. I mean, I love it and they give me a ton of, a ton of feedback.

It's always so like active. I mean, they get me thinking so hard. So I would do it for nothing, but we do basically do it for nothing. And it doesn't seem like people stay feeling fresh and excited about it. Yeah, yeah. And there's something about it too

that I think would be hard, which is you're doing the same amount of work as me. Let's say if you give a lecture or you talk about something, but like the 120 people in the class, that's the scale at which that work is able to reach people. I think there's something invigorating that I have the advantage of, which is, you know, hey, 500,000 people are gonna open this email tomorrow. There's something, there's something

onerous and intimidating about it, but there's also something really exciting about knowing that even a small thing that makes a small difference since it's magnified over such a large amount of people, it could really have have a big impact. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, that just must be so gratifying because I think that is part of it. My students are sweet as can be. You know, I'm in South Carolina. Like I can't even join in and complain about students. But you do get your feeling cert by the one who misses the question. You know, we're really actively in charge of like what they're understanding. Sometimes I'll say something and then ask them what I said and they are blank. It's like, I just said it to you. I just said, yeah, I mean, we're sure. It's very active. And

I think professors do get their feeling hurt way too often. But I'm glad you're doing it this way and it just has such an impact. I had one last request though. I just read your last book, and you even mentioned that not everybody is, I don't know what word to use, like is privilege to- Is this discipline? Yes.

Okay. We have all of them, but we've been trying to figure out if stoicism would help at risk kids in our community. Sure. You think so? I think so. Well, I was thinking about it because I sort of opened the book with an argument that

we live in this sort of time of abundance and plenty. And the idea of, you can pretty much do everything you want. And you have access to all the things that you want. So self-discipline is very, very important. But it struck me as I was rereading the manuscript just how sort of first world and privileged that argument about self-discipline was, that this is how one makes sense of abundance.

Because even amid of abundance, because even amidst abundance, not everyone is experiencing that same abundance, right? And so I was thinking about that, and then I realized it's not fair, but actually people with less access who are less privileged, self-discipline is even more important in the sense that the margin for error is lower. And the stakes are high.

So the idea that a student of yours who has two married parents with two incomes, they got into a bunch of different schools. They can decide when they come to your class or not. If they fail, then they can go to a different college. If they fail out of that college, they can go to a different college. They have a certain amount.

There are safety nets and safety nets for that person. But it's actually, it's the first time, you know, the first time student, first person in their family to go to college, the one paying for themselves, etc. This is the one who has to have the even more iron-clad self-discipline because if they fall short, you know, there's less to catch them. And so, I think seeing self-discipline as this thing that we all need, but the earlier we get it, and the more we realize that, hey, we're on our own with this stuff. Like, we have no one is actually looking out for you. And that's more or less true for different groups and different people in society. But no one is looking

out for you. You, you have to be in charge of yourself. You have to be your advocate. You have to be your enforcer because not only are people not looking out for you, there's probably a certain group of people that are looking forward to you failing. And you've got to figure this stuff out and the sooner the better. Yeah, right, that's great. We've been thinking about presenting it to kids at a high school we're volunteering at.

I mean, I'm like a little uncomfortable talking about virtue with high school kids who have been through so much, but cognitive behavioral therapy is so close to stoicism and where we're going to try and incorporate some of that. I mean, we're going to try it. Well, I remember I read a study. Paul Tuff wrote this book. I think it's called How Children Succeed. And he was talking about, you know, the marshmallow test, right?

They do the marshmallow test. To predict whether children can be successful, do they have the ability to delay gratification? But he was saying that one of the problems with, let's say, a lower income child who has been burned by the system where people, you know, they've had a hard life. When somebody comes in and sits in a room and says, hey, I'll give you one marshmallow now. But I'll come back later and give you two marshmallows if you don't eat the marshmallow. They're like, I don't trust this motherfucker. Give me the marshmallow now.

It's not even smart, it's not even prudent. I mean, yes. They're just, they're just aware, they're predicting properly whether they'll be treated well if they restrain themselves from the marshmallow. I know, I worry about it because I see kids who have so little in our community far more disciplined than wealthier kids.

And sometimes I worry they don't get a chance to be creative and take risks for that reason. And I'm not sure, I'm not sure the discipline, I mean, these are like incredibly disciplined athletes. We have a friend who used to walk to practice miles, you know, just a few years ago, walking miles. Now he's in juvenile detention.

Like, I saw incredible levels of discipline and then it still doesn't work out. I'm trying to teach critical thinking in these classes. And I love seeing the kids make guesses that are wrong, be real creative, because I think the stakes are so high that there's a lot of focus on drilling the right answer. Anyway, I'm fascinated by that. And now I love that you have the kids book and I'll keep looking for resources like that. No, no, I think you make a good point,

which is the physical discipline is sort of step one. And a lot of athletes and a lot of people who have had tough lives have to develop a kind of a physical discipline. But then it's that emotional discipline, that cognitive discipline, that ability to not act on urges or impulses, not do something that in the short term feels like it'd be fun and the inability to sit, you know, to ignore, you

know, those kinds of things like, I think that's what Paul was saying in the book, which is like, as a privileged, you know, kid, you get used to doing a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter. And you believe people who tell you that it does matter. Like tests, they don't matter. But you have to have a kind of a discipline to go, I know they don't matter, but this is the game that I have signed up for.

And so I have to play by the rules of said game. You know, that requires a kind of self-discipline that is difficult, I think, to cultivate if no one in your life has a model that discipline for you. Well, but let me suggest that we had a lot of of, you know, horrific racism in people's lives in Charleston, South Carolina. So some of my most valuable contacts, or we call them old timers. And it is amazing how many of them, some of them arrested his kids for protesting with MLK. I mean, just like what?

It's just like, yeah, they had our whole family and they're like, what? And they are so stoic. I mean, they aren't bitter. They were so hurt at the time, they will cite things like the serenity prayer. I've been recording a few of them, I should send you one recording. And the stoicism is there, I'll ask, you know, I'll check and then they're like, yeah, that sounds fine, that sounds fine. But I haven't seen that so much where people work their way into stoicism.

See, I totally disagree. Actually, I just read this book, it was very good. I just had him on the podcast. This is Tom Rick's book on the Civil Rights Movement, called Wage in a Good War. But anyways, one of the things that we don't talk enough about when we talk about the Civil Rights Movement is we think of it solely as a moral movement based on ideas,

which it was. But we ignore that every single one of these civil rights protesters was subjected to training. They were trained in non-violence. Non-violence being a moral and spiritual discipline that you have to practice. And they were even like the million man march, there was a list of rules that you had to agree to follow to participate in the march. And they said, if you have trouble with these rules, stay home, let us handle it. Right?

And so I think we sometimes, we do the civil rights movement a disservice by not acknowledging that the very human impulse when someone punches you in the head or calls you a racial slur is to respond with violence or words or whatever, that, you know, like when John Lewis falls on another protester to protect them from his body, This is the opposite of what you're instinctually going to do. This is a result of deliberate and very well thought out practice, which drives all the way from Gandhi. But I think we have to understand that this was a discipline that they were following. It wasn't just they were right. And so magically were transcended, you know, transcended their human limitations and were superhuman.

They, they were like an athlete who had practiced for this moment of, you know, that's amazing for this effective approach. You talk about that in discipline and that's destiny. Okay. Now I remember and so the the theory comes first. That is so interesting. So you think the theory and practice comes first, that is so interesting. So you think the theory and practice comes first, that's so interesting. Yeah, I just mean like these weren't, they weren't just winging it out there. Do you know what I mean? Like this was all deliberate and planned.

Right. They were seeking out provocations to then not be provoked by. And that I think that's having undergone that training in your 20s, you know, now is still manifesting in these old timers that you're talking to. And they were part of this, it's like they were on a championship team that was transcendently great. And they have carried that energy with them.

And I think today it's so much easier to be an activist because you just have to post something on the internet or whatever that maybe we're not fully getting that training. And I think, you know, one is made better by it. Yeah, it's counterintuitive, but then it holds up. Wow, that's amazing. I never thought of that. Well, this was an amazing conversation and thank you so much for your work and kind words. And let's do it again. I'm sure you'll write something on.

I imagine you have a book about stoicism coming someday. Yes, I do. It's hard to write a book. It is. And that's also a discipline. Yeah, I, you get more motivation from your sites. I really appreciate it. We are huge fans, like I said. Well, hit me up when you write the book and we'll do this again. Okay, great.

Thank you so much. That's my Memento Mori coin. I think about it all the time, I'm playing with it on my test right now. So in that carry always, it's probably the thing I get asked about the most when I bump into people in public. It's just been a game changer for me. I have a bunch of different Memento Mori reminders, of course. But if you want to get this one, which we make here in the the US and a mint and Minnesota that's been in business since 1882 you can check it out in the daily store or if you're in Bastrop you can stop by

my bookstore here the painted porch on Main Street where we sell them as well it's Game Changer, let me check it out. Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.