The Daily Stoic - Rachel Hollis on Empathy and Emotional Acceptance

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

In the first of a two-part discussion, Ryan speaks with Rachel Hollis about how her success has been defined by perseverance and acceptance, the importance of approaching work without arrogance, improving relationships by working to understand emotional boundaries, dealing with public criticism, and more. The second part of the discussion can be found at Rachel’s podcast, The Rachel Hollis Podcast.Rachel Hollis is an author, podcast host, entrepreneur, motivational speaker, blogger, and mother of four. Two of her three self-help books, Girl, Wash Your Face and Girl, Stop Apologizing, have become massive worldwide bestsellers, and The Rachel Hollis Podcast inspires a wide listenership with interviews and self-help oriented content. Rachel also founded and grew her own media company, The Hollis Company, which produces books, podcasts, movies, social and live events and physical products. Her work can be found at her website msrachelhollis.com. ✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each weekday we bring you a Meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics a short Passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are,

and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. I got an email a few weeks ago from someone whose work I was familiar with. I'm familiar with their work because they were Austin and We we had never chatted before but I had talked to her ex-husband before he'd asked me to blur one of his books and They lived out in the hill country, which is not far But I'm a bit of a homebody so I'd never ventured out. And she sent me a nice note about how she'd read the obstacles the way, and it had been very helpful to her. And it was just a very nice note, and she said,

hey, would you want to come do the podcast sometime? And I said, you know what? Let me think about it. I'm just been doing a lot of interviews lately, and not sure I had the bandwidth. And then I saw in the news that her ex-husband had just suddenly died, which was sobering reminder of momentum. Mori has the stokes talk about that you never know, putting off meeting people or seeing them or, oh yeah, it's been a while. Like you never know. You just you never know and as my

interview with Bozama St. John was talking about recently the urgent life you know in light of death a lot of petty differences or petty differences or Resentments or fear all the things that can get in the way of relationships This sort of falls away and that was something I imagined today's guest was thinking about

Or wrestling with when someone even if you're no longer with them certainly no longer with us and so I sent her a note and I said, hey, I hope you're doing all right. And then I said, you know what, what if we, because she had talked about me becoming out to the bookstore, I said, what if you came out and we just had a long conversation, we interviewed each other, or nobody was interviewing anyone, we just had a conversation, and maybe we got two podcasts episodes out of it. And so that's what we did. It was a wonderful conversation. And part one of that's going to be here on the Daily Solo Podcast. And part two of it will be over on Rachel Hollis' podcast. She came, we did it in the new Daily Stokes studio. She signed some books over at the Painted Porch. Her massive bestsellers didn't see that coming.

Girl stop apologizing and girl wash her face. You have seen in every airport, you've ever been into, one of them sold four and a half million copies. So it's just a monster book. And she's a huge influencer and guru and role model for women and entrepreneurs and Mothers all over the world. She's a huge lifestyle brand and media company, but

Like all of us. She's also a human being and she made some mistakes and there was some controversy and there was some backlash you might say there was some cancel culture involved and all of that made my guest today, Rachel Hollis, reconsider a bunch of things, reconstitute her life, her priorities, her perspective. And I think that comes across in today's interview, she was wonderful to talk to. And I do find, as always, that the more controversial a person is in the news with some exception, the more controversial that person is, the more preconceived notions you are, the more surprised you are at how nice and reasonable and human the person you sit across from ultimately is, which is why it's always something I recommend. I think you're going to like this interview with Rachel Hollis.

And like I said, if you enjoy it up through the end, we'll just go over to her podcast. I'll link to that in today's show notes. And you can finish the episode. We totally lost track of time. We talked so much longer than we thought. But I think it was totally worth it. So you can follow her on Instagram at Miss Rachel Hollis. You can go to her website at Miss Rachel Hollis.

And you can check out her books. Didn't see that come in, Girl Stop Apologizing Girl, Wash Your Face. Among others, that's only three of the nine. She's written a ton of other books, which is something we talk about. You know, we always think they're these overnight successes, but people, there's way more prologue

to most of the people that you have heard of. And that's what we talk about in today's episode. It's funny, I talked to lots of people and a good chunk of those people haven't been readers for a long time. They've just gotten back into it. And I always love hearing that. And they tell me how they fall in love with reading.

They're reading more than ever. And I go, let me guess, you listen audio books, don't you? And it's true. And almost invariably, they listen to them on Audible. That's because Audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre from best sellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs. And of course, ancient philosophy, all my books are available on audio, read by me for the most part. Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app. You'll always find the best of what you love,

or something new to discover, and as an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. You'll discover thousands of titles from popular favorites, exclusive new series, exciting new voices in audio. You can check out Stillness is the key, the daily dad, I just recorded so that's up on Audible now. Coming up on the 10-year anniversary of the obstacle is the way audio books, so all those are available and new members can try Audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500-500. That's audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500 500. Life can get you down. I'm no stranger to that. When I find things are piling up, I'm struggling to deal with something. Obviously, I use my journal, obviously I turn to stosism, but I also turn to my therapist,

which I've had for a long time and has helped me through a bunch of stuff. And because I'm so busy and I live out in the country, I do therapy remote, so I don't have to drive somewhere. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Talkspace makes it easy to find a therapist that you like. It's convenient. It's affordable. By doing everything online, Talkspace makes getting the help you want easy and affordable. So why wait?

And Talkspace can help with any specific challenge you might be facing. That's why it's the number one online therapy platform with license therapists and over 40 specialties. It's secure and private and in network with most major insurers. As a listener of this podcast, you can get 80 bucks off your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com. Sashdohic to match with a license therapist today, go to Talkspace.com. Sashdohic to get 80 bucks off your first month and show your support for the daily stoic. That's Talkspace.com. Sashdohic. and show your support for the Daily Stoic, that's talkspace.com slash Stoic.

["Stoic"] All right, well where should we start? Wherever. I usually just chat about anything. Let's start with, is that a real Grammy? That is a real ish Grammy. I did win a Grammy. I saw it for...

For what? Well, so some authors win them for reading your audio book. I know. It's my only chance that an E got. It was, it was certainly one of, what I thought was my only chance, but no. A friend of mine produced a jazz album and he was like, hey, I need help with like the liner notes

and writing all the stuff. And so I helped him with that. It was an instrumental jazz album, which I know literally nothing about. I just helped him with the liner notes. And then, what are liner notes? Like the, you know, like in a remember CDs, like all the text that would come with a thing.

This is cool. It's called the Presidential Suite. And it's a bunch of the great presidential speeches of all time set to jazz music. Cool. So there's like writing involved and like how the anyways I worked on that. So as a producer on the album with like 20 other producers and then Grammys are actually about, I came to understand the Grammys

are about as political and insideery as the bestseller list, which is, except for the bestseller list is to a certain degree, just like, here's who sold the most copies and then here's who we chose among ones. This is like this process of voters. So like, you campaign to, to be nominated and then you campaign to win. So anyways, there was this whole campaign to do it. And then we ended up getting nominated and then you campaign to win. So anyways, there was this whole campaign to do it and then we ended up getting nominated and then winning. So I'm a producer on a Grammy award winning album.

But I did get to go on stage and accept a Grammy at the Grammys, but there's... What year was this? This was 16 or so. No, this is 2017. And so two things I learned, number one is there's actually two Grammys. There's the Grammys that you see on TV,

which like Hotel Winds or Kanye steals it from Taylor Swift or whatever, there's that, which I also attended, they give out like 10 Grammys at the Grammy Awards that are at the Staples Center. And then there's another theater next to the Staples Center called the Nokia Theater, that's what it was then. And that's where they give out hundreds or thousands of Grammys for best women's country album

with harmonica, like all these categories that you would never have thought of existing, but are music. Like who do they give best album cover design to? They don't do that on TV. It's a best heavy, they, they haven't announced best heavy metal album on TV, on the TV Grammys for 30 years, but that's still a real category. So there was that. There was like 50 people in the audience, and we just went up one after another and accepted our Grammys. And then the other funny thing was,

they only give one Grammy. Yes, this is what I'm wondering. Do you like file a petition later? So they were like, if, you know, one of you gets to keep the Grammy, and there was like 20 of us, and then they're like, the rest of you can fill out this form, and they'll send you, well, send you like a certificate,

and I was like, fuck that. Yeah. I'm gonna make my own Grammy, which I did, because it's just, you know, like any other trophy. And then I just wrote them. Uh, so it says, Ryan Holiday, uh, best large jazz ensemble album 2017. And then I wrote, uh, when you die, this will go in the trash alongside all your other accomplishments. So that's my great.

I love that. Yeah. I, this is the first time that I thought, Oh, there's a way, like, if you touch something, you can file for, it's like a Super Bowl ring. Like, you can also get it, but you personally made that. Yes. And actually, I also got, I have not a Super Bowl ring, but I worked with the Rams, and they sent me, like, so all the players get a ring, right,

that are on the team, and then there's like, the outer circle of people who can get a ring, like they probably give one, I remember I was riding one time in the elevator at a Spurs game, and the elevator guy had a championship. And I said, how did you get that? And they were like, he was like, the Spurs are the greatest elevator guy had a championship. Stop. And I said, how did you get that? And they were like, he was like, the Spurs

of the greatest organization in the world. They gave a ring to every single person who worked for the team. That's so rare. Which is like how you get the culture of like a championship organization. So anyway, there's that ring. And then there's an out, then there's

an outer circle beyond that where they're like, you were nice or like, we like your stuff and they gave me like a giant novelty. Do we? No, no, no, it's like a paperweight. Oh, oh, okay. Well, I mean, you could so wear that. So I don't have a Super Bowl ring,

but I have a novelty, like participation Super Bowl. It sounds like a theme. Yes, I should put it here also. What a life you've had. It's been weird. It's certainly not what you think when, like, I don't know about you,

but you're like, I want to write about X and then you're like, maybe it'll do this. And then whatever, it would be preposterous to have assumed that X plus all these other things would happen. A hundred percent. And you'd have to have been a deranged egomaniac to think that even that was in the realm of possibility. It was actually something I really don't like about success stories as I think people very disingenuously like something they take credit for it, but they act as if that was the plan all along,

which I think is very intimidating to people who would be, who would not only relate more, but be more inspired if they knew that like, actually you're just trying to do this one thing, and that set in motion all these other things. And so like, yeah, I wanted to write a book about ancient philosophy and then I'm getting a gram year novelty super bowl ring.

That's to have thought that those things were connected would have been a preposterous like ability to see in the future. And in entitlement too, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I think the more I do this work of interviewing people, the more I find this through line in that it doesn't matter what they do, whether it's an actor or a writer or athlete, it always, to me, sounds like they're really interested

in something. Yeah. They started working toward a goal that they had, but along the way when opportunity was presented, they were like, yeah, I'll try. I'll sort of see where this goes. Nobody has ever sat down. I don't know if you find this too. Like, it's never a linear path. It's always like, I went here and then I went here and then I did a back flip and then I ended up over in this place because I think we all

could have an idea of where we want to end up. And if you're too rigid about it needing to be that exact thing, you're going to, I don't know, I feel like I would have failed too much to keep going. Well, I think that's true. And then the other thing that happens is then afterwards we go actually know that this is what I was trying to do the whole time. And then we don't actually realize how that closes doors in the future. Like in the enemy, ego is the enemy I was telling the story about Google, like Google starts as like a PhD thesis and then like they thought maybe it would work as a company and then it became this thing. YouTube was like a dating app that turned into a video thing that people thought

was a terrible acquisition. Gmail was this small internal, like all the big things were actually somewhat accidental or serendipitous or just started small and became something huge. So for Google to then go like, no, where this world change in group of visionaries who like conceive vastly into the future. That actually makes you make worst decisions in the present because you have given yourself a kind of sight that you don't have, and you've also given yourself some sense of your capacity or your genius that's also not there.

If you said, hey, we're a company that takes little bets and some of those bets work and some of those don't, that's actually what you should continue doing in the future. That's a recipe for success. If you're like, no, no, no, we're the visionaries who can predict the future, then you're like, oh, let's spend a billion dollars on Google Glass or let's spend a billion dollars on this, and then you're like stunned when it doesn't work. Those ideas might have been good actually,

but if you, and if you'd started smaller and been less arrogant or utopian about it, you might have actually done better. And so, like, I thought I was going to write a book about Angel Plotty that would matter to people in business. And then it ended up resonating all these different, but I try to go back and go like, I really had no idea. And I try to remember that I don't have really any idea.

So then when I'm sitting down to doing the next book, I'm like, I hope it'll do this. I'm not like, I know exactly what everyone wants and I'm always right. Yeah, I think that we, especially as creators, if you are working with that end goal in mind, I feel like you're playing to whatever you believe the trends are, which never works.

So, after Girl Wash Your Face explodes and all of a sudden, it's everyone's like, how did you? I'm sure they did the same thing to you. Like, how did you do this? How did you know? I'm like, I have no idea. I literally just did what I was always doing. And for some reason, at that exact moment in time, it was the right place, right time, and it exploded. And I don't ever believe that's possible for me again. If it happens amazing, but I'm not betting on that, I just sort of kept showing up, kept doing the work, which is I think what a lot of authors do.

We plug away, and you know us for one or two pieces, when really there were 50 others that you've never heard of or cared about. Wasn't that, like that's I think something people miss from years is the thing that that was your first book, but it was not even close. So it was my sixth. Okay, so that's, but that's a radically different story, right?

It's like, woman writes book and it blows up and now she's a huge author. It's very different than woman writes five books. They all do not enough that you even know about them. And then the sixth one blows up. Like, one is, first off, a much more relatable story. One's a much more honest story. And one also actually asks a lot more of people, right? Is like you think, everyone thinks their first book is gonna crush or their first thing is gonna crush. And it does for one percent of people, but for the vast majority of people,

it's a much longer slower burn than that. I always feel worried for anyone who has a success on their first go, whether it's a musical artist or someone who goes viral or because you believe that that's the path. You didn't have to like crawl through the desert. You didn't have to keep going when nobody cared, when nobody came to your book signing. You don't sort of have that muscle.

And so when inevitably you put something out and it doesn't work, I feel like that ends up being your end. Well, that happened on social media, I think even more because it's hard to do a book and it's hard to do a book. Ultimately, if your book succeeds, it has something in it that people thought was worth purchasing with money, which is a pretty high thing to get over. Whereas if you're someone that suddenly has a lot of social media followers, some of those people are talented, but it's also very possible to not be talented. If you're someone who was on a social network early and you blew up there, you can tell yourself this story that you blew up because you're super talented, you do all this amazing stuff, whatever.

super talented, you do all this amazing stuff, whatever. And what you're, what this is actually preventing you from is developing any sort of objective base of skills or competency that will work in other mediums. Like I was talking to my son about this who's, he's just starting to get to and I was like, it's actually good that you're smaller and younger than all the other kids in the class. So you're gonna have to actually figure out

how to get good at it. Yeah. Whereas if you were bigger and younger than all the other kids in the class, because you're going to have to actually figure out how to get good at it. Whereas if you were bigger and stronger and heavier, you would be able to coast on just your natural advantages or the mismatch. And I think that happened on social media a lot where people were the, one of the early people on TikTok, now I have millions of followers, they don't, there's no there, there, because they were just gifted at huge audience. And I'm not jealous. I'm just saying that that's going to be hard to translate to the other things that you

want to do because you're not learning how to do a thing. Yeah. How, like, what are your thoughts on social today? Because forgive me if I'm wrong, but you come from a marketing background. I actually think the first book I read of yours was a marketing book, right? It wasn't, maybe social media, like it wasn't stoicism at all.

No, I mean, I wrote like a critique of online marketing in 2011, which I probably read. I've been doing this a long time. Yeah, I do have a marketing background and I do think all the platforms are important and you have to figure out how they work and how to spread your ideas on them or you, you know, very few. There are very few people who are not sort of legacy acts that can just only do their thing. Right. That, and if you think you're one of those people, you're probably not one of those people, right? Very few people get to be Cormac McCarthy, who write a novel every 30 years.

It's world news, and they don't do a single promotional thing for it, and it's just huge. Like, that's not happening anymore, that's gone. So, I think you have to figure out all the platforms, and you have to spread your work on them and this is where people discover things. That being said, you have to find a way, I think, to create as much distance between you, the person, and those platforms. If you want to remain good at what you do. What is your relationship with social look like, like day to day? Are you actually doing it or someone else does it? Has anyone else is doing it? I don't even have any of the apps that come on my phone. Oh wow, so you don't consume it at all. I mean, I do like my wife and I watch

Instagram Reels and like we I am on it as a regular person sometimes. But I have no access to being me on the platforms. Do you ever worry about that? What do you mean? That someone else posts on your behalf says the wrong thing. Yeah, I guess. And then you get in trouble, even though it wasn't you. I approve most of the stuff. Like I make the stuff, but I don't, I'm not like, give me the likes, you know, like it's not going

into my brain. And I think that's the, like, I just, you know what audience capture is. So audience capture, I mean, there's different ways to think about it, but this happens most often, like politically, like someone will take some sort of, like controversial stand, right? Like it's maybe, maybe right wing or left wing. And then a bunch of people will not like them for that thing. And then a bunch of people will like them for that thing. And then the people that like them for that thing, those are their people now. And they just tell those people what's happening over.

And oh, Russell Brand is a great example of this. Like Russell Brand went from this funny comedian to this sort of enlightened spiritual guy to a straight up crazy person, conspiracy theorist, like he posted a picture of him in Donald Trump Jr. the other day. Did you like really? Whoa, how did you get from here to there?

Whoa. And you're like, oh, the algorithm took you by the hand and guided you over there, especially if you're somewhat skeptical or a contrarian or if you have some sort of grudge, like if you've been put on the outside a little bit, you go, this is the only place. Like I think naturally as a creator, if you're not careful, you go to where there is traction or heat, right? And so you just end up playing in a space and in a certain point, that just becomes who you are.

Well, my new thing, and this has been the most freeing decision I have made, I have been on social since the beginning. Yeah, sure. Like everybody, right? I had a blog and so I would post and like little recipes, whatever About a month ago I made the decision to no longer allow comments and no longer see like counts And I had I don't post that often I posted more to talk about the podcast like when I'm really proud of the work

We have great guests Ryan Ryan, holidays on, holy crap you guys. I will post about that, but above and beyond, I found that I am a better creator, I'm a better human, better mom centered, all the things that we wanna be when I am not on that. And I won't allow anyone else to post on my behalf. So if I wanna talk about my work, it has to be me.

That being said, I know there's such opposing opinions on this. But for me, I'm just tired of giving my platform to people and comments who are just, it's bananas with them. They're not even writing about me, they're just writing crazy stuff, or they're fighting with other people, whatever. So I made this decision. I'm like, I'm just not going to allow comments anymore. And it's the most freeing thing, because I don't care how the post does.

I have not cared about that in forever. But it allows me to show up as myself, messy, real, here's this thing. If you like it great, and if you don't, that is fine too. But I just don't want to buy into this idea because I am, I am not struggling if I see something like, oh hell, they like that outfit. Gotta do more outfit of the day post, and I don't want to, I don't want to create in that way.

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of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Yeah, I think it's not healthy data. It's not things you would want to know, but you can get really granular data on it. It's better not to know. So for the Daily Stoke, I send out an email every day to 600,000 people and I send another I saw it do two emails.

It do daily damage to 600 and daily damage to 600 and000 people. And I said, I do two meals. I do daily day, which is 600, and daily daily, daily stuff, which is like 600 and daily day, which is like 100. So every day I write this thing. And it's an email. So you can reply to the email. Oh, wow. And I had to make a pretty conscious decision

relatively early, because the numbers started small, but they got big quickly. I had to make this decision, basically, like, do I want these people to have direct access back to me? Or is this a one way conversation? And I just found that knowing what people thought of it did not make me better at doing it. It did not make me better at doing it. It did not make me happier as a person. And actually it made me less likely to say what I actually thought or what I thought

was important. Because no, like it's not healthy for a creator to know, hey, this thing that you just wrote about, that you thought was important or heartfelt, it just cost you X amount of money because this many people left, this many people unsubscribed, this many people told you they would never buy something from you again. I wanted to write without fear or favor. You can't do that if you're been barred with data in that way. I've decided not to have that information. Does it, does it mean

sometimes I might get something more wrong that like I might have gotten sure, but it mostly makes me able to just say what I think, I think the question for every creator is like, do you own the audience or does the audience own you? And I think algorithmically, and when you're looking at the data, it's very easy for the audience to own you because you're trying to like surf this wave. And I sometimes like people will they'll still manage. And I can tell it's like, oh man, I must have gotten a lot of negative emails about this because they found my actual email and they forwarded me today's email and are commenting and I can see that they emailed. This address and it didn't work and this address, they were like trying,

they were knocking on all these different doors until they found the one that I was in to be like, listen here you piece of shit, you know, that's what they did. Do you ever think like if you applied this energy to your own life, to your own, if you hate my content, go make what you think is good. Go put it out into the world. Like if you just applied your hatred of someone to your own life or your own work, I just feel like everything would explode for you in the most positive way. Well the funny thing is it's almost never something I said.

It's something that they heard, right? It's like, I didn't come out and say, all these people are criminals and deserve to be in jail. It's like I made an off-handed remark and they inferred this thing that clearly they already feel like guilty about it or whatever. But I'll get those and I just think, wow, if I had gotten 500 of these, that would have had the effect of intimidating me or making, I think what you also realize

are like really crazy people is like, the point is to raise the cost just enough on the person to make them go, this is not worth it. And so I try to keep that space, because I think it's really, like, and sometimes when they do, I'm like, why did you have to say this? Didn't you know you would, you know,

this office for the first time? And I say something like, look, I didn't get, I didn't work really hard to build up this audience to then not say what I think. And that's kind of how I think about it from a career perspective is like the purpose of succeeding as a writer of getting to some means of financial independence or security or confidence or whatever it is,

it should not be to then be terrified of losing it, so you are not yourself. When you say, you know, the idea of like, it's not what I said, it's what they heard. It reminds me of the thing that I have chewed on and processed for years now, which is apologizing for the impact versus the actual intent. Yes. So, or the idea that your intent can have a very different impact than you intended, right? But then I had always sort of been taught that coming up and building a business through social media was you have to apologize

for the impact. Yes, but then at the same time somewhere along the way I started taking the impact and flipping it and believing that that was my intent when it wasn't. So allowing someone else to say, well, I was offended when you said this and I'm such a people pleaser by nature and such a good girl that I'm like, holy shit, I have a fin, and I can't believe I've done this, I can't, and it took a lot of therapy to get to the other side and come back to, wait a minute.

That wasn't what I was saying. That actually is even what I said, but I've been taught to apologize for what you heard. Yeah. And at some point, then, as a writer, as a creator, I have lost my voice because I'm too afraid to talk about anything. Well, I think two thoughts here. So number one is, I think something that people get wrong about stilicism is like stilicism

is like focus on what you control. You don't control other people. So if you offend someone, it's like their problem, right? This is like, I think a very male take on stasis that I dislike, right? Like going around, not giving a shit about other people are the consequences of your actions or the impact of your words, that's not cool, right?

And so I think some people, like, there might be some take on stoicism, we're like political correctness is bullshit. Like don't worry about these snowflakes. Just do whatever, do and say whatever you think. I think that's totally missing it because I don't wanna hurt people's feelings. And I actively try not to hurt people's feelings.

I don't build my entire life around not doing it, but I do try to take it into account. And if someone comes to me and says, I've been negatively affected by something you did or said, I take that and I go, well, was that, did I mean to do that? Is this, is what I said important to me? And if it's not important to me, then I'm definitely going to be very quick to apologize because it was not only unintentional, but like I was just being thoughtless and you've actually helped me to be a bit more thoughtful about that thing.

So I'm going to take that. But I think what you're saying that is important is that just because you made someone feel shitty, doesn't mean that you are a piece of shit. Yes. Because there could be so many things between you and them that contributed to that ultimate feeling that you can't possibly put on yourself. And so I think it's a balance. It's like someone gets upset. You're like, you know, sometimes I'll, again, I'll just thrown off something offhand.

I didn't really think about who's on the other side of this. And now that I have thought about it, I don't like that I said it, and I won't say it in the future. There's other times where I said what I said, and I mean it. And if that offends you, maybe you should think about what I'm saying here, because I have a point. And the other thing I was going to say that I think the other way to think about it is where it's challenged me as a person is maybe you've noticed this with your parents, but like

you talk about something from your childhood and they take that as like a criticism of them as a person and they're like that didn't happen or that's not true or you're so sensitive, right? They're trying to argue with you about your feelings and there's nothing more infuriating than someone trying to argue away the existence of something you feel. And so that's something I try to think about with my kids is like, if they say something

or they say they don't like something that I did, I can't be so sensitive that like, I have to deny the truth of that, rather than going, your feelings are your feelings. I know who I am, I know what I was intending, I didn't mean to hurt you. So I'm not like racked with guilt, but I do wanna make you feel better

and I do wanna not make you feel that way in the future. Yeah. Well, and I think that's a huge piece of maturity for me as I get older is that we all are allowed to our own feelings about the situation. And the separation of that is an emotional boundary of you get to feel this way. And I get to feel this way and not take on each other's feelings of what this experience was for us. Yes.

And you're just never going to win arguing with that person about how they don't actually feel that way or it's not fair for them to feel that way or it's hurting you that they feel that way and just be like, Oh, okay, you feel this way. I didn't mean for you to feel this way. So let's like talk about. Yeah. Right. And yeah, I think we're talking about boundaries, talking about awareness, talking about empathy. These are all things that are hard under normal circumstances. And I think they're really hard if you didn't have that modeled for you or you have the opposite of that. And so when you think about why people get so mad on social media, well, that's most people. Right. Right. I actually was just talking about this in an episode recently that

when we understand what emotional boundaries are and we try and put them in place in our life, there's a very strong chance you're trying to put up an emotional boundary, which with someone who does not have any experience in it, right? Your mother-in-law, your dad, your partner, if they knew about that, you wouldn't be in this situation. They would, the boundary would go on set. Right. So it's already a ton on your shoulders to try and establish the emotional boundary and hold it strong, especially in the face of a person who is super unfamiliar with what

that is. It's going to feel like an attack. It's going to, it's going to push every button that they have, which is why this boundary doesn't exist already. Yeah, and it's and it's really hard. I'm going through some version of that myself where it's like you put up the boundary and you hope the person's like,

oh, that's what it takes for me to stay in your life. God, it will respect it. But you, that's not usually what happens. And usually they go, well, then fuck you, I'm out. And you have to sit with that. And then there's a part of you that goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like, and then you're back to violating the own boundary. And so I think just understanding that like when you draw

a boundary, there is a good chance that the person's going to go in the other direction. And that's going to be sad, but that's also kind of what you want or you wouldn't have thought the boundary was necessary in the first place. Yeah, 100%. How did you come to the wisdom that we know you for today? Like, did you grow up with this information or you found it as?

It's certainly not. I think the reason I found it, and it struck me so much, when I read Meditations at like 19 years old in my college apartment, sitting at the table like this, it was like, holy shit, where is this? You know, like this wasn't what they talked about in church. This was what my parents talked about.

This isn't what my friends' parents talked about. This isn't what they talked about in school. It was like, oh, there's people who have thought really hard about being good at life and being a good person in life that doesn't have, you know, as notions of sin attached or hell attached or because I fucking said so attached

or, you know, like, you're such a disappointment to us. There was none of that. It was just like, hey, this is the journey that people have been on for a long time. And I think it just struck me because it was so different than what I, not only than what I got, but it was what I was looking for.

And so I wouldn't what I was looking for. And so I wouldn't say I have that wisdom. I would say I'm good at explaining and talking about and connecting that wisdom to other things. That's what I feel like I do. Like I feel like the conversation that I'm having about stoicism in my work is not from on high looking down, but like looking up with the audience. Yeah. Did that launch you into this world of reading all of the stoics or? Yeah.

Because I've heard you talk about it before and you're so passionate, obviously I read the books, but it was a long time from 19 until this became what you were known for. Yeah, I mean, I had, I liked all the stuff and I think I was primarily though in my early 20s interested in it as a philosophy of productivity or success. In the same way, you know, people,

there's something attractive about the prosperity gospel because it's like, if you do this, you will get this, but you're not actually understanding what this is and why it's important. And so I think my relationship with a grew and evolved and I added to it my own experiences and then other schools of philosophy that I studied. So it took a while and I remember actually I got someone offered me a chance to write what was the obstacle as the way in maybe like 2008 or 2009. So like several years before it came out and I meant McQueen was like, definitely don't do it.

Just a tiny name drop, no big deal. Well, yes, I mean, I was sort of my dream person to work for, but I was like, hey, it's here, like the thing that I've always wanted is here, like my shot and he was like, this is not your shot, you're not ready. And that was the hardest thing in the world to hear,

but he was totally right. I needed to go make a bunch of mistakes, do a bunch of things, see a bunch of things, until I could really write and talk about it. And then even then, you know, my understanding of the words, even in my own books, is different many years. Sure. I, that book, I told you this when I first emailed you, was hugely impactful for me. Oh, that's so cool. And I didn't intend to read it.

It was, I had read your marketing book. And then I know it sounds so ridiculous what I'm about to say, but I'm just sort of like, stoicism. You know, I'm very emotional. I've not, it feels like the opposite of who I am, it feels like this will not be helpful in any way. And my boyfriend is basically like dating Yoda. He's very calm, he's very centered,

and I saw it on his bookshelf, and I didn't have a book, so I was like, well, I'll try it. And then I devoured it, it was so helpful for me. That's it. Because it came at a time in my life where I really was grappling with so many things that had happened to me. And I was like, why does this stuff happen?

And the idea that if you can get past that obstacle, it really is the skills or the tools or the resources that you harness in order to get past the obstacle is how you become the next version of yourself. Yeah, and I actually understand the book like differently. There's this thing from the Stokes that you never step in the same river twice that everything is different

because you bring something different to it. So I think when I was writing the book, I was very much thinking about it as like, I don't know, like, and now you'd be like, you're a small company and you don't have all these advantages compared to your big competitor, but that makes you creative and therefore you're better than your sort of bureaucratic, larger competitor. So I was thinking about it in terms of like how constraints make us creative or create opportunities.

That's definitely one read on the idea that the impediment to action advances action, what stands in the way it becomes the way, which is what Mark's really talking about, the book is based on. But as I've gone through stuff and seen more things, I've also come to realize that it's less clip than that. Like, he's saying that what happens to you happens to you. And that's an opportunity for you to be a different kind of person as opposed to like one door is closed.

So you go through this window. Do you know what I mean? Like that, that, she says basically that every obstacle or impediment is an opportunity to practice a virtue. And that virtue might be acceptance, it might be forgiveness. You know, so like when you hear the obstacles away,

and obviously I was writing towards like, hey, this is how you scrappy start, it becomes more successful. But I've come to see it more now, like somebody betrayed you, somebody stole from you, somebody hurt you and you were little. Now you're wrestling with that. What is that an opportunity for you to be as a person?

That is some form of greatness, right? And so I, yeah, my relationship as a person that is some form of greatness, right? And so, I, yeah, my relationship to it has changed because you just realized that some things, like the loss of someone you love or a pandemic or something that happens in the world, it's not like, oh, where's the silver lining? But now I can do this.

It's more like, what is this situation demanding of me? And how can I step up and be that? And I think that's a more meaningful way to think about it. Yeah, I am wired to look for the silver lining, but I'm just always like, okay, well, how can this be for me and how can I learn and how and my partner is very much accepting. Just like it is, it just is. And sometimes it just is. And he had been talking about that for as long as we had been dating.

And I was just sort of like, well, we're going to agree to disagree. And reading that book was really helpful. I wouldn't say that I'm all the way there, but I'm so much more accepting of especially people, of people that in the past I would think, well this is toxic energy or this you know, this person, I'm talking about family members, like this person's crazy or that I'm just sort of like, it is what it is. And when I try and fight back against that, I only make my life more uncomfortable. Like it's that Byron Katie quote,

defense is the first act of war, that when I try and like defend what I think should be true, because like I'm not upset that you're acting this way. I'm upset because I think you shouldn't be acting this way. So if I can just sort of accept that that is what it is, and then go about my existence with or without you in my life based on how you're behaving, that has been huge for me. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life.

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Hey, prime members, you can listen early and app free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Yeah, I think we saw this during COVID for sure where a lot of people's arguments over this or that or this or that boiled down to, but I wish this wasn't true, right? And I see that even in relationships with ice fows, like you're mad at this person, but really what you're just saying over and over again is like, I wish the facts were otherwise. Yes. Like I wish you had not done this.

Yes. But they wish you had not done this. Yes. But they did do it. It did happen. This is the situation that you're in. It's raining. Like, yeah, it's not supposed to rain. And yeah, you wanted someone to bring an umbrella and you told them to make back like you all that all that stuff is true.

But now this is what it is. And so you can torture yourself and them going in this loop over and over and over again, hoping that if you say it enough times, you can will different facts into existence or you can accept those facts and go, okay, what can I do with this hand that I have? Yeah. And so I think acceptance has kind of a really nasty connotation, like there's a

passivity in it and a weakness. Oh, I think it requires so much strength. And not only does it demand an incredible amount of strength and fortitude, but it's also the first step in doing anything about it. Like, you can't change something that you deny is not the way that you want it to be. You accepting reality on reality's terms is the first step. This is, I think, politically a huge mistake that people make, right? They don't want something to be true about human nature, about other people, about the world, about public opinion.

So they just think if we just say things enough times, you know, we can change the fact that a good percentage of the population, or we can, we can wish away the fact that a good percentage of population does not agree with us on this. Versus, hey, this is morally correct, our position, but for whatever reason, and actually we need to understand what that reason is, a large percentage of the population does not agree, the law does not agree. And so how do we change that? Right? So the acceptance, like in addiction or recovery, acceptance is the first step in admission and acceptance. Is the first step in trying to chart any

kind of new or better future? And your denial is not only not true, but it's harming the thing that you'report to believe in. How do you feel like for people who are listening or watching this, if they're trying to figure out if they're in denial in a certain area, are there things that you would identify as like, this is probably a pretty good sign that you're not being honest with yourself about what's really going on. I've been saying lately in some of my talks like the thought it's different this time is the first sign things are about to go super sideways.

You know, it's different this time. It doesn't apply to me and the exception. I don't know if only I could get them to see you know whatever when you when you have I think it's hard because like if fundamentally any creative person or entrepreneurial person or person in a position of leadership is inherently in denial, is inherently irrational. There's a great quote that is basically like, a rational person accepts the world as it is. An irrational person seeks to change the world. So it's like fundamentally change in progress

depends on the irrational man. And so it's hard. Like you have to have that. Like you have to believe that what you're doing can make a difference. You have to believe that you have agency. You, you have to have that. Like, you have to believe that what you're doing can make a difference. You have to believe that you have agency. You have to believe things can change. You have to believe that you matter, that you have power.

You have to believe all that stuff. You have to believe that you're right, even though all the people that are telling me the odds are against you are overwhelming. You have to believe that they're wrong. So you have, at the core of who you are is some bit of irrational rejection of status quo or the odds or whatever. But, and you need that,

but you can't have that in everything that you do. Well, I would also, I wonder too, if there's something to like, you keep trying to do the same thing and you're never getting the results that you're looking for. It's sort of like doing the same thing over and over and expecting. The definition of insane. Right.

But I encounter this a lot in the women in my community. They'll say, you'll start to talk about something. They're like, oh, I know. I know. I've read all the books. I know all the, and I'm like, no, you don't know. Because if you actually knew, then you would understand how to apply it in a way that would get you to the result you're looking for. So, it's, you know, knowledge isn't power, applied knowledge is power.

So you don't know. And there's some piece, or maybe many pieces in the equation that if you just tweaked them a little bit, you'd start to really move. Well, everyone knows, right? Everyone knows how you're supposed to lose weight, and you build a business. The facts are, the thing is pretty simple. There's just some part of it, a part of us that doesn't believe it, that doesn't believe we could do it, that doesn't believe that we have what it takes, there's some part of you that has not fully accepted that or has not fully committed to that. And I think that's gonna make it very hard to do whatever the thing is that you want.

So it doesn't matter that you know. And then I think one of the things you learn in therapy is there's a big difference between like intellectually understanding something and like emotionally understanding that thing. And I think it's really common and really easy to intellectualize or to be, I get it. It's clear, but you're like 40% of the way there. This is probably why, and I'm not a fan of them and don't do them, but I think this is why psychedelics are so powerful for some people is that like that thing

that they knew or that they kind of understood, it resonates with them in some way. The defenses are down and they get, because whenever I talk to someone, it's like, oh, I just did I wask or whatever. What did you learn? I learned how it's gonna die. Or it's like, I saw a little version of myself as a kid

and I was scared and I realized I've been, it's like, yeah, this is like 101, like life, therapy, philosophy, religion, and you realize, like I'm not making light of it, it's just like knowing it and knowing it are different things. So real. Have you done psychedelics at all and you never will? No, and I really hate that people call it doing the work.

Well, I will say I'm so fascinated by this. And I have a couple people coming on as guests soon that are very into psychedelics. I'm really curious about exploring the idea of spiritual bypassing. Yeah. That you get so into doing the work. I also, I have done psychedelics, so I'm like, not, I'm not dogging it. I am the queen of like, let me try a thing and see what I learned. But that people do it so much that they're sort of, at least from the outside, it seems

like they're getting to this place of enlightenment, but I'm confused about what the enlightenment is for. Because I thought the whole idea was that you were taking what you learned and applying it to your very real life. But if all you do is keep escaping through whether it's, you know, I have friends who like meditate for five hours, I'm like, it must be nice to be rich or not have kids. Because what are you talking about? This is not how normal people behave. And you have a choice as a human being

to just live your life on another plane. But I thought that the point of the enlightenment was so that you could bring it back down to this very real life that you're living inside of and use it to help yourself or help others. Yeah, it's like, you know, you sound like a drug addict. You're like, I did this thing, I felt magical, and that's why I like to do it a lot.

I sleep going back, yeah, hundred percent. And then you found a way to tell yourself that it's like medicine. Yes. So anyways, I tend to be skeptical or somewhat cynical about anything that presents itself as like a magical solution to problems that human beings have been struggling with for

Basically all of this human experience. Yeah, there is a lot of I have friends who are in the military and have done Journeys that are guided that have been so healing to them. So I just I want to I actually make that exception too like if you have like treatment resistant depression you're they're already giving you a lot of different medications and so like try them all and see what works and Also, I suspect if that's you you're not the kind of person that's like now wearing weird hats and like Exactly, you're trying to get some relief from something that's making it impossible for you to function as a person in the world to me That's very different than you know this sort of I don't know whatever the the sort of know, this sort of, I don't know, whatever the sort of, like commercialized sort of, like medical tourism that feels like some people have decided to get into.

Do you ever push yourself to do things like this that you, your instinct is like, absolutely not. This is not for me. Well, a much less controversial version of them, and it's probably the reaction you were having to my book, which is like, anytime I see something that's like a book that's just like selling like crazy, I'm like, well, I'm definitely not reading that. And then then I read it and I'm like, oh, this is why it's so huge.

Right, it's so funny. It's so funny. It's so funny. It's so funny. It's really good. It's all like very rarely if I picked one of those up and now I've been like, this was totally unwarranted. I'm like, no, there's a reason Malcolm Gladwell is so,

she's, of course. But you're just like, oh, this is what, like, there's a reason. You're just being like a judgmental asshole. Is what you're talking about. Yeah, well, I think probably too, as an author, you're like, like, what the question of like, how did they get that? Yeah, well, and then you start preparing and you're like,

well, dang it, I, you know, so it's my own thing and I feel like it's probably better to not soak it in. And I definitely have had times where I've read stuff and I'm like, oh, I get why this resonates, but I don't, this is not my jam at all. That is a huge breakthrough that I try to even tell people who like tell me that they don't like me. I'm like, yeah, like I'm not for everyone. Yeah. And just like having having the under like when you have understanding that what you do is not for everyone,

that you was literally not designed for every kind of person, but designed for a specific kind of person. That should be transferable to all things and realizing like, this person is making things for people that are not me. And if they like it, and it's getting doing something for them, that's awesome. Why would I have a problem with that? Yes, it's so wild because I think this happens a ton in personal development that people get so fired up and they'll just hate a specific style of teaching. And there's lots of people that are not for me. But if that person and their style is helping someone,

then why do you care? Yeah, I think, look, there's definitely some people who are fundamentally dishonest or unethical or exploitative and like I'll draw a line there, but comedy is a good example. There's so many different types of comedians for so many different, like, their styles of comedians, their generations of comedians, their comedians for certain groups, certain experiences, certain age demographics. And there is this instinct when you don't like a comedian to say like, they're not funny. And no, it's that what they're talking about is not funny to you. But if there is a stadium of people laughing at that person, chances are they're right

and you're wrong, right? And I think if you want to talk about accepting to get to a place where you're like, that person is funny but not to me. Or that comedy is for a phase in life or a type of experience that is not me. And I have no problem with that. Like I'm okay with that existing. But there is this instinct,

what's the expression like don't yuck someone's yum. But there is this thing, it's like when somebody says, like I like this and your instinct is to be like, let me tell you why you're wrong, which goes back to what we're just talking about, which is like somebody else's feelings or somebody else's feelings, and they're in no way mutually exclusive

with your feelings or your tastes and To be able to just be like cool. Yeah, Amy Polar has this quote in her book where she's talking about other moms and how they mother And her line that she uses over and over is good for her not for me. Yes, just like good for her not for me Good for her. She's gonna make an organic lunch and one of those special You know things and like the kit for her preschool and they speak three languages and like good for her, not for me. But we're so judgmental about how other people do things. A great example of this and you don't consume social, it sounds like. But I happen to notice or the algorithm wanted me to notice a ton of reels that were women

in their late 30s and 40s who were, you know, how you can take a video and like add your own video on top of it. I don't know if it's well. Yeah. So they were doing that with young women, women who are 19, 22 and those younger girls would be talking about a style or a lot of times it was like a scrunchy or a pukeshell necklace stuff that we had when we were younger and these women in their 40s are just eviscerating these young women like we already did that we already did and they're so mean and so vicious I'm like

what is wrong are you okay are you okay this is wild. Like, this girl is not hurting anybody. She's literally excited about a new headband that she got. That all she's doing is putting her joy into the world. Like, a new headband, it's so cute. And you are using that as your content to rip her apart and you're 20 years older than she is. This is embarrassing. Just let them do what they're gonna do.

You don't have to get it and do your own thing. When I think to go where I was talking about earlier, is part of that is like they are hearing something very different than that young person is saying, right? Yeah, that's right. And so like when you're fundamentally insecure or fundamentally don't like who you were at that age somebody like like I

I forget who it was, but I saw some woman she was like Some overweight woman and she's talking about being like bullied on the internet and She was like why is it a problem for you that I don't hate myself? and I think a lot of the backlash about the body positivity movement is fundamentally about that. So it's like, I paid off my student loans. Like, why should you get debt relief?

There's this part that goes like, I feel disgusting and I hate myself and I'm in pretty good shape. And here you are, like medically obese and not healthy, and you don't hate yourself. That's not fair. And so I think a lot of it is that. Like I suspect all moms feel guilty,

I was talking about talking to my wife about this and here the other day, I think moms are much harder on themselves than dads are. A billion percent. And so, with you walk around feeling like you're not doing enough, you're not good enough, that you're falling short on all these ways, and then you see a woman who is confident or focused on things other than the things you're focused on, that can feel very much like an indictment of you. And I wonder how much of the anger towards you

is like, that anger would never exist if you were a male author. Oh, all day long. Oh, this is like I have internal debates with myself all the time is expressing any kind of success for as long as I've been in business, I always thought, well, gosh, I never had an example. And I wondered this, right?

I would look at Oprah, I would look at Sarah Blakely, I would look at all these women in business that I know are billionaires. And they never talked about it. And I was like, what is going on? How are women supposed to be inspired and to look at other people who have figured it out, like, it seems from the outside, like Sarah's killing it as a mom.

She's built this amazing bit. Like, why is she never talking about that? Right. Why is she pretending that she's a regular person? Right. Like, you have, yes, this is a whole other thing. But then, so I was like, well, I'll be the one. I'll say, like, this was years ago,

when I would be like, oh, we sold out this conference, like 8,000 women are coming, and we're doing this thing. And it would, I mean, I may as well have painted the target on myself, never thinking, because I grew up without any money, you know, like so many people, like working through jobs, doing the thing, that I thought, well, if I talk about it, and through jobs, doing the thing that I thought,

well, if I talk about it, and if I tell you the path that I took, you don't have to follow my path, but maybe it inspires you to do something in your own life. And what I actually got, it's like what you said earlier, that it was like, we're going to make this so painful for you, that you will stop talking about these things. And I have only recently become conscious of how many things I deeply care about that I have stopped talking about as a podcast host and as a writer, because I know that people are upset if you talk about money or they're upset if you talk about health, they're upset if you talk about body image, like any of these things that I know are going to have a is a role response from the audience. So then I don't speak about them at all. And we're getting to a place in our culture where we're just we're talking about nothing.

Because it's like you're not you're no longer playing to win, you're playing not to lose. I think the problem is it's actually worse than that. So you have sort of people who are sensitive to being yelled at, to be criticized, to be made to feel shame or whatever. And then you have people who are apparently immune to those things. And then, no, you don't. Because what I'm saying is like, so it's like, look, if you treat everything with antibiotics, you eventually create like super bugs that are resistant to antibiotics, right? So if you try to shame people for every sort of laps in language or poor piece of judgment if you try to say, oh, that post was insensitive or misguided

your cancel, your gone forever. What that leaves you with is either the people who take no risks, stand for nothing, or meticulously calculating everything they do, so that never happens to them, and then the people who take no risks, stand for nothing, or meticulously calculating everything they do, so that never happens to them. And then the people who are like, I don't give a fuck, right, like I have zero shame. And those people are the worst.

And so you, and they'll talk with anyone, engage with anyone, say anything as long as it's provocative. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's clicks. Yeah, so it creates the opposite of a world that you think you want because you think you're holding people accountable, but really you're just selecting out. You're getting rid of all of the, by nature, the fact that this person is trying to apologize, but the nature of the fact that this person feels bad about what happened, you're actually eliminating them

from contributing to popular culture and you're leaving only the people who are incapable of feeling any of those things. Incapable of feeling or perfect to playing the game. Yes. And then it's just a picture and an emoji, and it means nothing. And so on some level, I am the prime candidate, the way I was raised

and everything. I am the prime candidate for using shame as a maneuver to get me to stop moving. I don't mind failing. It's like I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't fail continuously. It's very easy to say specific things and have everything crumble. Because I'm like, oh my god, what's that? Renee Brown, guilt is, I did something bad. Shame is, I am bad. And so I am like, it's so easy to use that and have me stop moving.

And when that's happened in big ways, which it obviously has, it took a lot of therapy and a lot of prayer and a lot of meditation and a lot of these things that I thought I had already, like I had this stuff in droves, but it took everything in me to then learn and grow and get past that. And what finally made it so that I could feel like I'm doing my work the way I've always

done it, to get back to this place, was that my core value is believing that the only way you and I are going to get better, or jack, or your team. Any of us is that we have to try stuff and we get it wrong and we have to learn from it. That is a core value of mine. If I want to grow, I'm inevitably going to do something where I have to learn from it. And if I believe that's true for every human, then I have to also give myself that grace. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you

next episode. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. music download the Amazon music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.