The Daily Stoic - Robert Greene on the Power of Daily Practice | You Have To See Both

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

Ryan reads today’s daily meditation and talks to bestselling author Robert Greene about his new book The Daily Laws: 366 Meditations on Power, Seduction, Mastery, Strategy, and Human Nature, the process of writing some of his bestselling books, how to have courage in the modern world, and more. Robert Greene is an American author known for his books on strategy, power, and seduction. He has written six international bestsellers: The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction, The 33 Strategies of War, The 50th Law, Mastery, and The Laws of Human Nature.DECKED truck bed tool boxes and cargo van storage systems revolutionize organization with a heavy-duty in-vehicle storage system featuring slide out toolboxes. DECKED makes organizing, accessing, protecting, and securing everything you need so much easier. Get your DECKED Drawer System at Decked.com/STOIC and get free shipping.KiwiCo believes in the power of kids and that small lessons today can mean big, world-changing ideas tomorrow. KiwiCo is a subscription service that delivers everything your kids will need to make, create and play. Get 30% off your first month plus FREE shipping on ANY crate line with code STOIC at kiwico.com.Ten Thousand makes the highest quality, best-fitting, and most comfortable training shorts I have ever worn. They are a direct-to-consumer company, no middleman so you get premium fabrics, trims, and techniques that other brands simply cannot afford. Ten Thousand is offering our listeners 15% off your purchase. go to Tenthousand.cc and enter code STOIC to receive 15% off your purchase.LinkedIn Jobs is the best platform for finding the right candidate to join your business this fall. It’s the largest marketplace for job seekers in the world, and it has great search features so that you can find candidates with any hard or soft skills that you need. And now, you can post a job for free. Just visit linkedin.com/STOIC to post a job for free. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookFollow Robert Greene: Twitter, Instagram, Homepage, TikTok, YouTubeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic podcasts early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast where each weekday we bring you a Meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace in wisdom in their actual lives. But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wonderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season,

Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. You have to see both. We talk a lot here about the successes of the Stoics. We talk about Marcus Arelius not being corrupted by absolute power. We talk about his brilliant navigation of the Antonin plague. We talk about Sena Kha's brave end, which itself was inspired by Kato's towering example. But it's important that we're not just cheerleaders. The Stoics were real men and women, and that meant real flaws too. We also have to explore Marcus Aurelius' failures as a parent. Look at Comedis. Sena Keneca's final stand against Nero was impressive, but less so when one looks at the years of

complicity in Nero's service. Kato II was unflinching at the end, but was his haughty demeanor and inability to compromise what contributed to Rome's demise in the first place. There was Diotimus, who committed literary fraud, Arius Dittamis who encouraged Octavian to murder his rivals and all of the stoics who own slaves. To study the past is not to just pick up what you like and be inspired by it. The pursuit of wisdom demands that we look at the failures too. What did our heroes get wrong? Where did they fall short? Most important. Where are we just like them today? The purpose of my book, The Lives of the Stoics, for instance, was not just hero worship,

but also sober assessment. The Stoics got a lot wrong. This was bad for them, and the victims of their injustices and failures. But centuries later, it is good for us because we can learn as much about what not to do from the stoics as we can learn what to do and This rule is true for any era any school any country you decide to study see both sides find Inspiration as well as admonishment be better because of their hard-won experiences their weaknesses and their strengths better because of their hard one experiences, their weaknesses, and their strengths, their failures, and their genius. I do think you'll like lives of the Stoics. It was a really difficult book to do.

A lot of research went into it. The idea is not just what the Stoics said, but what did they do? How did they live these ideas? What can we learn from their lives? I was lucky enough to co-write it with my collaborator, Stephen Hanselman. It debuted at number one on the bestseller list. I'm really proud of it. Check it out. It's been selling great. But if you're looking for the next step in this study of stoicism, I think you have to look not just at what the philosopher said, but what they did, and what you can learn from them. And let's not just look at what they did well, but what they did poorly,

and where we can benefit from that lesson as well. Check out Lives of the Stokes, anywhere books are sold, and we've got signed personalized copies in the Daily Stoke store at store.dailystoke.com. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke Podcast. I told you a couple weeks ago I went out to Los Angeles to record some interviews and press for courage is calling.

All of those are up. You can check out my interview with Los House with Tom Billiou, with Rich Roll, bunch of other ones and you can check out the vlogs. We made about that trip, including the near disastrous car accident and wildfire and all the other stuff we bumped check out the vlogs. We made about that trip, including the near disastrous car accident and wildfire and all the other stuff we bumped into along the way. Check that out on our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash daily stork. But my favorite part of the trip, I don't want to say it's the main reason I did it because it wasn't, but it was a very important bonus of the trip. I found myself on a Sunday afternoon, we were staying in Venice,

hopping in the car and driving across Los Angeles to do something I'd done like so many times when I lived in LA. I was driving to Robert Creens house, to drop something off. And that was what I did for so many years. I was working in American Apparel, I was working at this talent agency and I'd have to go drop off the transcripts of an interview or a book that Robert had asked me to read and mark

the pages of or he'd asked me to pick something up, just all the things I did as a research assistant. That was my job. I would stop by, drop something off, pick something up, spend a few minutes with Robert and it was just, you know, I just think back to that time so fondly, I have so much nostalgia for it, and I, you know, in retrospect, it was so formative, it made me the writer that I am today. Made me the human being that I am today, and I have so much gratitude, and I feel so lucky

to have had Robert come into my life, and I am deeply indebted to all his generosity and support and guidance over the years. So I was over there to drop off a copy of Courage is calling, but more important, I was there to pick up a copy of Robert's new book, which I was so excited for. And that book is now out, it came out yesterday. I'm talking about the daily laws. 366 meditations on power, seduction, mastery, strategy, and human nature. And part of the reason this book came about is that I was talking to Robert about how for many years people had asked me what is the best stoic to start with? How do I get into stoicism? And I would recommend sometimes more, because really sometimes Senica, sometimes Epictetus, sometimes

it would be the right book for the right person and sometimes it wasn't. And part of what the daily stoic was, the book, was an attempt to sort of capture the totality of stoicism, to be a reader, a primer on this philosophy. And so I'm obviously also an evangelist for Robert Green. And so people have asked me, should I start with the 40 laws of power? I was talking to this guy the other day, he was a football player and he's like,

I heard you talking about Robert Green. So I picked up the laws of human nature. He's like, I'm really struggling. It's a hard book. And I was like, yeah, man, that's like the hardest of all the Robert Green books. You started like at the most ambitious end of it. And so the challenge of where to start with Robert Green's brilliant life-changing books has always been there. I suggest that he do like a daily Robert Green

book, the best of his thinking, sort of an introductory, a survey course of 20 plus years of writing about strategy and warfare and history and greatness and mastery and all of the things that Robert talks about so brilliantly in his books. And now that book exists and I'm so pumped. And so when I was there, I was like, Robert, you know what, you're feeling good. He's still recovering from the stroke

that he tragically had a few years ago. He was feeling good, his energy level was up. I had time, I was like, Robert, let's just talk about the book for an hour. Let's just like kick it and I recorded it. I recorded this on a Sony camera, so we're pulling the audio from this. So if it sounds a little bit different

it's because it wasn't like in studio or with like mics the way we normally do it. But it was just one of the best conversations I've had with him. I was so grateful that he made the time. I'm so excited to get to do it. I learned a lot, as I always do, in the presence of the goat, the greatest of all time,

at what he does. The thing that so many of us writers in this space are looking up at the one and only Robert Green. And it's wonderful to see him take this victory lap in this new book. I think when I did The Daily Stoke, my agent said, this is going to be your best-selling book. I said, no, it's crazy.

Why would that be? I think there's a chance that The Daily Laws becomes one of Robert Green's best-selling book, although there's millions of copies that will have to sell to pass some of his classic texts. But it's just such a great way to get into Robert Green. If you're interested in reading about Robert, this is the book for you. If you've been put off or intimidated or you have preconceived notions about his books, I think this is a great way to start. You can pick it up anywhere, books are sold. We of course carry it at my bookstore at the Payne and Porch.

You can pick up a copy online as well at thepaintedpourch.com or the link will be in the show notes. But Robert Green's the best. It was so wonderful to get to talk to him. I think you will enjoy this interview. And I know you will enjoy the new book, The Daily Laws, 366 meditations on power, seduction, mastery, strategy, and human nature. So without further ado, here's me at Robert Green's house, talking about all those things. This is the new book The Daily Laws. I see it as kind of a greatest hit at one, a best of Robert Green.

Because to me, I feel like it's a question people ask me a lot. They'll hear me or someone else talking about you and then they'll know what Robert Green books should I start with. And it's kind of a tricky thing because if you go 40, you'll have a power, maybe to get turned off because it's dark. If you went with seduction, maybe that's not what they're in. To me, it's actually a question I get with the Stokes too, like who should you start with? It feels really hard, but this is to me perfect because it's basically the best of all of your

stuff in the most digestible way. Like I was talking to a football player actually, I played at Alabama and he was, he had heard that the laws of human nature was really good. And I thought, that's probably, to me that's like advanced class property green. Maybe not where I would start if I was 19 years old. Yeah, it depends.

It depends on your background. And if you read a lot of books on psychology and if you can stomach going through a nearly 600 page book. But it's, you know, I have a lot of people who you wouldn't think would be reading the laws of human nature, but who read it slowly and bit by bit. And particularly here in a situation where you're dealing with a lot of difficult people. But the way I look at the book is a little bit differently in that I sort of see like it embodying kind of two main lessons that I've derived in life. The first one was, unlike you, I did not have any success in my life until I was essentially

38 years old. And prior to that I had a lot of very painful experience as I kind of wandered my way through the work world. And I was sort of entered the work world out of college with all of these silly illusions about people, about success, about who I was, and slowly they all got knocked down one by one. It was very painful, very emotional, and it caused me a lot of drama,

and it probably set me back several years. Although in the end, it gave me all the material for the 48 loss of power. And what I sort of learned from all of that crap that occurred to me was that really what I needed to forge was kind of this realistic outlook on life. The chart where I get rid of all the bullshit, all the things that you learn in university, all the bad ideas that you got from your parents, all the bad ideas that you get from your peers, and you're able to look at the world relatively objective, and I mean relatively. And it doesn't mean that life becomes this kind of boring, gray world of just, it actually

becomes more exciting and fulfilling. And so I learned that the hard way, with that kind of realistic attitude, which I was forced through a lot of battles, is really, really what allowed me to write the 48 laws of power. And the second thing was the power of daily practice of habits.

Now I've been meditating for about 11, exactly 11 years. Now every single day, I'm just a single day, I miss one day, I make sure the next day I do two times. And the habit of doing it every day is just very fulfilling. Because something hasn't forward to it. It's really helped have a profound effect upon me. But habits of work and discipline where every day you attack something is where the power of our brain operates maximally. So this is a book that every day is going to make you meditate on something and it's going to infuse you with that realistic outlook that I think kind of actually literally saved my life. No, I think that's right because

in what I found with the Daily Stoke is you read it once and you're getting the sort of greatest hits, survey course of the works and thinking of Robert Green. And there is a lot of value in that, and that's more than the 26th dollar or whatever the book costs. But it's really on read number two and three, or 50, depending on how young you are when you buy the book. That's where the value of the daily practice is. I imagine your meditation is relatively the same

as it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And the power is the groove you get into doing the same thing over and over again. And I think, as you said, you mentioned that the laws of human nature are 600 pages. So there's a percentage of the population that can read a 600-page book. But how many people are going to take a 600-page book two or three times? And the books that have really influenced me have been books that I've interacted with over the course of my life.

Yeah, I think there's something really special about the data practice. This is what, like for instance, daily or nightly Bible study is for certain people. It's, again, the words are the same, but you're different and what you just went through or are going to go through that day is different. This is that Heraclitus idea that we never step

in the same room twice. I think there's something really cool about revisiting the same ideas of an overcame. Well, the thing is, my plus has always been you have to make ideas your own. We have to take with somebody, teachers, and you have to put it into your own experience. Can't just be these dead words. Yes. That you kind of digest that have no relevance to your daily experience. You have to take them, they have to come to life

within you, within your own experience. So you read a passage and it's not maybe what I'm really going through right now, but you kind of maybe recall some experiences in the past that might be relevant. And then the second day you come up with something that is maybe a little bit closer. And then as you go through it more and more

and more the kind of soaks in you go through it more and more and more the kind of soaks in, and you see more and more access points to your daily experience. And then it can kind of become something that you internalize. Yeah, I talk about sort of using the confirmation bias against itself, or using the confirmation bias to your advantage.

So I'll hear from people who are going to be like, how did you know on today's entry, the Daily Stoic, that this is exactly what I mean. Well, the truth is I didn't, right? I wrote it five years ago, and you might be in Australia, and someone in America might be reading

different entries on the same day. So it's really that we bring to the text exactly what we need. It's why fortune cookies and horoscopes seem to have power, is that we see in them what we already knew, but couldn't articulate to ourselves. There's sort of a delphic quality there where like it's just vague like your passages are just short enough, just general enough that whatever you're going through, it could feel like that was exactly the advice that you needed that morning.

I had the experience, very weird experience with the 48 loves of power when it first came out. I would go, it was my very first book tour and I would go to Love's in Washington and I went to the, what was it called, Voice of America. Yeah, and this woman comes running up to me in the hallway saying, God, that punk that you just described exactly what I'm going through. Everything is just so perfect, you must know.

Washington really was, and not in the same thing as someone who's in the, what's the charitable world, he called it, the non-profit. The non-profit world. They're the same thing, then athletes will say it. So yeah, you kind of project and your own emotions, your own experiences of the moment into what you're reading, that's totally viable.

And I think that's also what happens when, it's why Buddhism and Stoicism and Christianity often feel very aligned, even though they didn't particularly influence each other, because also when you boil something down to his essence, like in the way that in comedy, the really specific becomes universal, because it's actually not that specific, it's tapped into something uniquely human that everyone can relate to, even if the experience is very different.

Yeah, yeah. So. I was also thinking when we were talking about this book that in a way maybe maybe not everyone knows, but I actually think the daily concept is slightly, it goes back to the very beginning for you because if I remember correctly, you told me once that the original plan for the 40 laws of power was 52 laws, which could have been a week reading a passage a week, although if I remember whether you got rid of that specifically, so people didn't do that. Yeah, it was also like playing cards, which are 52 weeks.

Right, no, no, no, I mean, but the calendar 52 weeks. But I mean, what happened was, I meant, I meant all the story before is the publisher normally my relationship to publishers is don't tread on me hands off get as far away from my material as possible. Do not edit it. I don't trust you. But in this in spring open to their ideas and in this instance they said 52 laws of power doesn't sound so great. What we really wanted is 48 and the 52 sounded too much like a given. Yeah.

And I agreed because I can't be rigid about things. Sure. So what I did was I took four of the laws, combined them with other ones. So I didn't get rid of anything. I just kind of made into 48. I just sort of fitted it in. Well, that is the 48.

Oh, I'm a student. Formalist this, right? But That actually they can be moved around and combined with each other. But I'm also violating a lot. It seems don't show your own tricks, but that's true. And it's 20, three years later, so I don't really care anymore. But, and isn't it also funny that, like, so when it's when you're working on it, it's like, could be 42, could be 48. And then once it's done and in the world, it's like 48 is obviously the right number. Like no other number could work.

Yeah, people obviously, what's the 49th law for us? There's no such thing. It's only 48 degrees. Everything in the universe. But you know, numbers have kind of a feel to them, you know, and so the word for the number 40, it has a kind of power already in it, which is, whereas 47, where 46 doesn't have that kind of resonance. Although, if it had been the 47 miles of power, and it had sold millions of copies and had the influence, I think everyone would be saying,

obviously, there's no 48th law. There's only 47 months. Yeah, that's true. So it's really sort of a look backwards and we're like, it could have only been the way that it was. But in reality, there was more malleable than it was. It was. And to be honest with you, when I first started doing

the research for God so many years ago. I had like 72 laws. I mean, the original concept was, I was going through all my research and yoast, the man kind of packaged his marching, I did the cover of this book. He said, well, Robert, what do you, how's it coming? And I said, well, I'm working on these kind of laws of power.

And he goes, wow, that sounds great. Just that phrase, I know that. Yeah, and he goes, and I said, yeah, I kind of have like power. And he goes, wow, that sounds great. Just that phrase, you know that? Yeah, and he goes, I said, yeah, I kind of have like 72. And he goes, well, just no growth. And then I sort of like, kid reducing, the reducing, and reducing, till it came to 48. So we're all just 72, different.

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Well, that's it. So on the 4v3 series that I'm working on, this is the weirdest one where I'm doing, having to, for you, it's the same with me, where you wrote each book not knowing necessarily what the next one would be, or it would sort of contain, although they work as a trilogy,

or yours works as sort of a body of work, it's now distilled down into this one. But this is the first time I'm having to think about how four books interrelate with each other. And the four books. The four books. Yeah, because so first courage then, temperance, self discipline, then justice, then wisdom. And so like I had a whole bunch of ideas that would go in the courage book. And then as I looked at the finished book, like you read a galley of it, there were laws

that there were chapters or ideas. I was like, actually, this has to go in the other book. And I think that was something I learned from you though, is like, you have to sort of ruthlessly call. You think it's 72. I mean, that would be heartbreaking to do. I actually have to either combine or get rid of 30-ish laws, like, but that is a part of the process. It's really boiling it down to the only the best stuff. I had to get rid of a lot of material for it. I mean, some day people might want to look at that.

I had a couple of chapters that we totally got rid of. The no one has ever read, no one has ever seen. Can I say that? Yeah, yeah. I had one chapter, it was called Use Religion. And the idea was to use religion to game power. Yeah. And I just changed that into create a cult like following. What about chapters?

Yeah, it is. But I wrote a whole chapter on how to use religion. And we thought that's too nasty, that's too controversial to have rid of it. But you have to be willing to get rid of things, you have to be kind of ruthless with yourself. And you know, a lot of books now, certainly yours excluded. They're too wandering. They don't have a structure. You get the feeling that somebody had an idea for a first chapter, and they kind of rift on that and the first chapter might be good

and they kind of lose their way. They think that everything they say and think is brilliant. They don't have a structure, they don't have to be ruthless with yourself. Let's say this idea actually isn't true, it actually isn't very good, it's not relevant to get rid of it. What's like that Stephen King line about kill, you have to kill your darlings? Yeah. Which I like because it's such like because it's a Machiavellian, like dark, almost Robert Greenway, it's expressing the writing, which is like, you love this thing and you sweat it over it

and you think it's so clever and cool. And that's why you have to get rid of it. Otherwise you're being self-indulgent. Or, yeah, I mean, 40 laws, there's a lot of laws 72 I mean I could see people being sort of like that's a lot yeah yeah I would have been a 600 page book it would have been not good yeah yeah I've killed millions of darlings over here have a whole bloody battlefield I heard Robert Carro cut like 300,000 words out of the power broker, which is already like 1100 pages,

and just imagine how painful that would be. Even just the fact that he writes longhand. Yeah, he writes longhand and his wife types it, but you're just like how, I mean, that's like two books, at least three maybe. And he just left it on the cutting room for. But it's a great book. Of course. Yes. Of course. As you saw about one of the interesting things about the book is that it's not just sort of a random smattering of the best of proper green.

It's like built around each month. There's a theme. There's 12 themes. But was it interesting to you to see how often you return to the same theme? So like I would have thought like okay, for instance there's the chap, there's the one about grand strategist, right? Or you would think that in the month of September you would only have been drawing on the 33 strategies of war. But actually, there's seduction in there in law of the human nature. Is it interesting to you that how often you touch on the same themes across your books, even though you're looking at it either from the ones of warfare,

or seduction, or power, or psychology? Well, I've always been kind of attracted to that idea, where you pull material from places that aren't so logical. So for instance, when I was doing the art of seduction, I really really wanted to have war stories in there. I really wanted to be able to quote Sun Su, you know, and like, because seduction, I saw it's kind of strategy. And then when I did the 33 strategies of war, I wanted to have a seduction story in there, and I actually did incorporate a couple of seduction stories in there, sort of show how they cross-referenced people.

But things that are not so predictable that come to you from right angles, or like you're reading about war, and suddenly I'm narrating a story about a film director. Right. So I'm trying to give it relevance to all aspects of human endeavor. So a politician is seducing the public. A war strategy is actually playing on the mind of the enemy and seducing them to believe something and misleading them. So these kind of cross reference points sort of fascinate me.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I thought that August's chapter about persuasion was an interesting way to look at What otherwise might have been categorized as seduction or manipulation? It's like oh zooming out like even if you're married and even if you're you know not engaged in whatever But you're trying to sell something to someone or you're trying to get people interested in a story or an idea or a cause. You still are relying on the same timeless themes to do that.

Well, it all kind of boils down to human psychology and how the human mind works and our weaknesses and our vulnerabilities. And that's what all of my books kind of play on. It's something that even mastery is trying to work with your brain how it's structured and your own strengths and your own weaknesses. So that's a through line that goes through all the chapters.

But for the month of August, I mean, one thing we didn't say is each month is introduced by a kind of an essay that sort of reflects my own personal experiences. Right. Something I've never done before because I'm actually quite a little talk about myself. This is your first book, I think, other than maybe the intro to the 50th book where there is the word I.

I haven't. I think so. Well, you talk about you in 50 meetings. Oh. But I'm just saying this is the first, you're not breaking the fourth wall because it's like how it works, but you're like rather agreeing the character person is in this book. Yeah, well, I usually try to avoid that because I'm trying to give out like my books are narrated by the voice of God, I have that's not very pretentious,

but it's like, this is the time, this wisdom of 5,000, 6,000 years of human experience. It's not me, Robert. Yeah. But in this instance, each month is kind of illustrated by things that have happened to be personally because believe it or not, these books actually do reflect things that I've felt and I've dealt with. And the month of August, I kind of talked about the process of writing a book. And we've talked a little bit earlier about the process of writing a book and the part we've talked about a little bit earlier the process of writing a book is a form of persuasion is a form of seduction right

and so I see what goes you have to be pretty enthralled to make it through a 600 page book you have to carry them from here to here with all the things that are happening in the world drawing them away from that right and so I tell people like the main reason what I think books fail, and I'm honestly believe most books are written now fail. I have a hard time getting to a lot of new books, so there are some very good exceptions. Is because the writer assumes that the reader is on the same level. They have the same amount of knowledge and the same amount of interest as he or she. And so they write as if the reader is just a reflection of them. They don't realize that that person that you're reaching has comes from a totally different

social economic background, maybe a different gender. All these other things that are completely different from you. And you have to kind of draw them into your world. And if you start out by being all academic and quoting these thinking people turn off, right? Yeah. So it's a writing a book is a form of persuasion. But everything is a form of persuasion and life.

If you're in business and you have a product and you're trying to sell it, you know, you have to understand human psychology. You have to get inside your clients' mentality if you're a politician. I mean, whatever. Maybe athletics is a little different, but if you're a coach, and I've dealt with coaches before, that's very much part of the game. Well, yeah, and I think the decision not to be in most of your books is part of that, because it's easier as a writer to be like, here's what I think. Like, yesterday I was at the store at Blondett. It's actually harder to find more work to go.

How can I find something in history where it's bigger or more universal or more compelling that is more likely to persuade the reader? Because I think in Turbo Ego is the enemy, if you assume the writer is your fan, that they care about you, that they know who you are, that they're interested in what you had for lunch yesterday, you are diluting yourself. You have to do the work to say, no, I want to create this vision or

this universe that sucks you in, and Napoleon is way more interesting than you or I. Yeah, so I'm kind of violating that here. I hope that doesn't turn people off. See, I think it's the opposite because now that you are, like I think if this was your first book, it would be a don't you? But now 20 years in,

you so now people do, you know, you've cultivated this air of mystery to go to the laws. And now by reviewing just a little bit, you're actually making it, I think, more seductive, because now I'm matching the words. I'm matching the ideas with the human being who made them, and it's, I think, more enthralling. Well, there are a lot of things I didn't reveal a lot of stories about my past that I will never reveal that are weirder than anything in there. Sure.

So, you know, don't think that you... Those are in your papers? Yeah, yeah. Well, on a narrate from some day or for my sister or somebody, but yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, I do think most books don't do a good enough job convincing the reader to give a sh- Right. You know, and that's why I think it's good that your books are controversial, and people I think sometimes misunderstand why that is. But it's like controversy is also caring.

If you have a negative, I'd like people to be like, I had a read your book, Ego is the enemy, but I disagree. And I go, that first off, that is what Ego is. But the fact that you have a strong opinion based on the title alone is already one out over 90% of books that are out there. And so I think when you can make a strong argument, I think with the new book, the sublime, just even that, I'm like, what is that? Right?

That's a thing I vaguely know, but I don't know, and so I'm already like, want to know more. I'm really struggling with that book. I mean, it's, you know, I think it's gonna be very interesting and very successful, but I have to make an even extra leap to try and make this so relevant to the reader. It's very difficult because it's experiences

that aren't able to do with power, has to do with things that are slight. I hate the word slightly more spiritual, please excuse me. But what's more ineffable, it's not like, cheers what troops did on this battlefield, and this is the terrain they want, right? So how do I relate that to the reader? I had that problem with the warbook. How do I make Napoleon relevant to your personal life. So it's actually been a problem

throughout all my books, but I don't think that's the journey here on like if if it was getting the whole point of mastery is that you shouldn't be applying it to harder tasks. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you go through the same thing, you should answer it. If I ever feel like the next book is kind of dead, I don't know if you go through the same thing and you should answer it. If I ever feel like the next book is kind of dead, it doesn't really feel like a challenge. It's like, I'm just kind of riffing off my past success and kind of just doing variations on the same thing. Something dies inside of me and then something dies inside of the book.

It has no spirit and no life. So I have to feel like I'm surprised, but I have challenges. I'm like, I have to up my game, I can't just rest on my laurels. It should scare you a little bit, because you have the same thing. Yeah, so, because this series is sort of scary for me.

And so I found this quote from Martha Graham, who actually I heard about through you. I guess it was Agnes DeMille wrote this fascinating biography about her. Oh, you do. Maybe you're the one that told me about it. But it's a quote from Martha Graham where she's saying, like, never fear the material.

The material knows you're afraid and it won't help. That's great, it's nothing. But I love the idea that it should be, it should be, I guess this goes the idea of courage, but it should scare you, but then you also can't be afraid of it. That's the weird tension on it. And what do you think about people

that are going into your book, where I feel like there's so much people are so timorous. They're so afraid they appear to be very strong in full of rage and anger but really they're just conformist to the highest degree and we're seeing like a plague of conformity in politics in all areas. Don't you feel I do agree that people are gonna be almost like shocked by your book or like, how do I? I don't know about that.

I do, I do the problem. I think one of the things that describe me in the book is that you're talking about courage, you're implicitly condemning or inditing people for not being correct. So it's somewhat of a sensitive topic right? Because if you hold up courage, you're sort of implying that by definition, certain people are not courageous.

We're all start as cowards. Yeah. You and I talked about that on, we discussed my own experiences and your experiences. So it's not like, you know, you feel superior, but still. Well, it's interesting to me about courage, because courage is the thing that we all admire. I don't think there's any culture that's ever existed in which courage was not only a virtue,

but probably the primary virtue, right? Whether it's a matriarchical society or a patriarchal society, ancient modern, courage is like as core as it gets as a human species. And yet, it's extraordinarily rare. And I don't know why. So it seems so strange, right?

And it's not like mastery or like technical skill is also held up and rare. But it's rare because it's really hard to cultivate. Courage is so much more accessible to people like you have a choice every day and yet it's rare and I think that's what's most interesting to me about it. And often, and I get that there's obviously self-interest and self-preservation, but so often, when you're looking at politics or business, I think Peter Drucker said like the future is scary, or something about how like you have to invent the future, it's the safest thing.

What's so interesting about Courage is that often, Courage is the less risky thing for people. They do the cowardice, cowardly thing, even though it's not in their interest. Right, right. But it's weird because nobody really talks about courage anymore. It's kind of a word that almost seems like 19th century, like it's wind insures and like some dusty thing that you know. So it's kind of weird that it's so important but nobody really talks about it anymore.

Well I have a chapter in the book about heronismus and there's a great quote from General Mattis that he said cynicism is cowardice and I think that's part of it. It's like to talk about courage it feels like a little sentimental. Sentimental, or it's just like, we have this expression now, like someone's a try hard. They didn't know that. Or someone's thirsty. Like they want it too bad. Like it feels a little lame to talk about courage, right?

Like the great man of history theory feels silly compared to the idea of like systemic oppression and and like it's easier to be cynical and say that it's hopeless and broken than to courageously like believe in or be committed to anything. Right, right. Which is sad. It is sad. That's why I think this book is so important because you bring it down to the level of the individual. So we often think like it's we think in large big-paint strokes of society at large for change that we all have to organize etc. But it comes down actually to individuals making certain decisions and certain actions that are courageous. Well that's what I've been trying to wrestle with.

Let's say you look at a politician, you're like, why won't they just do this, right? And they should, and that's obvious. But, do you think there's also, it's like, when was the last time I jeopardized the future of my profession for an idea that I believe? So, I think one of the weird things about courage is that we spend a lot of time questioning other people's,

the less time actually like looking hard in the mirror and going like, yeah. When, you know, you know what I, it's easy to do, the why won't LeBron James talk about China? Because he's afraid of losing his endorsements. And then may or may not be completely true and fair criticism,

but like when was the last time I, you know, like said anything negative about a major source of my income, you've said you've had a stir to the few ordinances. I have, I'm just saying it's really easy to question other people's courage. As a, as a, as a smoke screen for having to be like, what are you doing in your own life? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that's probably why I didn't go into politics in the first place. I didn't have to get into that dirty position. But, you know, that's what we did in the last talk we had. I pointed to exam in my experience in American apparel,

which you know, could be a slight profile in cowardice in that, you know, it took me a few years to make a hard decision. And I couldn't, me on the board, could have made the decision earlier. But, you know, I had to confront certain weaknesses in myself that were emotional about betraying a friend, et cetera. So I can understand what you're saying. It's easy to always see the other person as being courageous. Yeah, there's a story I have in the book about cruise chef where he was like, this is after

the death of Stalin, he's sort of rail about stalling and all those abuses, and somebody passes a note up and it says like, yeah, but where were you at the time? And you know, you was gonna like have them killed or yelling and just goes, well, I was where you are right now. You know, like also in the audience. As it's significant in the 40th, well. Oh really, I got it from Nick. I read a book that Nixon wrote.

This passing book called Leaders, where Nixon wrote about all the leaders he had spent time with. And I just love, yeah, I love that story. And it's, it's true by Nixon. It's just called Leaders. It was really interesting. He's actually a very intelligent, interesting person, despite the big stain on him in history.

But what's the book you recommended to me about him that was, what was it called? One that I use for human nature? Yeah. It's by the guy that works with Walter Isaacson heaven and something I feel like. That was really good. But yes, actually an interesting sort of concept.

It feels like it ties into the daily laws where it's like Nixon often knew what to do, what was kind of had this inner battle inside of himself. But, you know, the thing is, you talk about how difficult it is, but I still have the feeling that people back in the past, and I could be totally wrong, were a little more courageous than we are now, that we're kind of losing something because I can think of three or four instances, even in Nixon's smartly career where he was actually very courageous. This guy was supporting the Voting Rights Act and civil rights measures in the late 50s that could have gotten him in a lot of hot water.

He did a lot of things that went against his own self-interest, even though he was such a conniving politician. Well, even his resignation was certainly more courageous than Trump. Yeah, yeah. No, Nixon is fascinating. I do think in the past, we were more courageous, although, so an illusion. Well, I talk about this in the book because there's another similar book to the Nixon one that Churchill wrote called Great Contemporaries,

we wrote biographies of people that he knew in his own time. And he was talking about like Lord Asher, some British characters, it wasn't particularly important, but that was the point. He was saying that he was a great man who lived in a time of small events. And I thought that was interesting because I think people see themselves that way now. You know, we're not in the middle of the civil rights movement or this with that. But I was kind of thinking about, okay, well when did this guy live? And it was like, you know, like, 1830 to like 1900 or whatever. And it's like, it's small events,

but also like, slavery still existed in England. Yeah, in England, I'm talking about in the world, like slavery still existed, imperialism still existed. You have the poor wars you have. So he lived in a time with small events, but only because he chose not to participate in larger events. So when you look at it and you go, oh, people were more courageous in the past. They were, but also they also kicked the can down the road on a lot of stuff as well.

Yeah, but you know, you take something like World War II where every American at least going on that had to make incredible sacrifices. Sure. For the, you know, personal sacrifices for their food, their clothing, their health, their welfare. They were willing to do it because they saw a greater cause. And that took some, I don't know if that's quite current and not sure, but now where people,

I'm just writing an article about this right now where I was just writing a school teacher and she's asked to do something that is against her conscience and the power of the state comes down and her, the parents are angry, everyone, you know, she's embarrassed and the media, it's a huge thing, she says I won't do it, I'd rather be fired than do it. So like on paper, that's admirable courage. rather be fired than do it. So like on paper, that's admirable courage. But what if I tell you that what she's expressed, what she's doing is refusing to take a vaccine. And so it's interesting to that courage isn't simply defiance or courage isn't simply standing alone. It also matters what you choose to be courageous about. And so I think that's also something we're struggling with is like, we do live in a time

relative peace and prosperity. And so I think people like they want to be courageous, or they grew up admiring courageous people. And they're not, they don't, left and right, don't always, they kind of will make either a mountain out of a mole hill, or they'll ignore something. They don't quite know where to apply the courage. Encourage isn't,

it courage is only valuable in conjunction with the other virtues. I say, and you make that point. Yeah, there's a Lord Byron Quotis says, the cause makes all that hallows or degrades courage and it's fall, or Yeah, there's a Lord Byron quote he says, the cause makes all that halos or degrades courage and it's fall. Yeah, halos or degrades courage and it's fall. But who's the Arpertur of what the great cause is?

I know that's such a problem there. That's the tricky thing for sure, but like, okay, was it Lieutenant William Callie, the myelina? He, everyone in his unit under penalty, refuses to testify against him. Right. Is that courage? No. But it was scary, right?

Like so there's attention in courage. And I, it's like courage is rare, but then courage applied to the right thing is rare still. Yeah, but then you come back to the point where the Arbor is right. I know. I know. I mean, maybe that's what you're going to discuss and you're a way to kind of a standard that we can apply.

Well, that's how the virtues relate to each other, right? So courage and self-discipline are connected because if you're, you know, like you think about restraint or when to retreat or discretion is a better part of valor, and then yeah, justice and courage are an extricably intertwined because courage and pursuit of an unjust cause. Like plenty of brave Southerners fought in the Civil War, but it's not the same. Instinctively, we know there's something hollow about that. But that only came out through a historical vantage point. Like they at the time never thought that. And really, even up until contemporary times, people really, I remember growing up where

the South and the cause of the Confederacy, yeah, it was kind of despicable, but Robert Ely, he was a courageous general. Right. So this is what Trump just said this week, because if Robert Ely was in charge, he would not get a stand in order to have lost. Right. He'd be on his horse with Ely, even in Calvary. I had to raise you, but he didn't lose the Civil War also. Yeah, he did.

So, but you know, the woman who's, who's you mentioned, yeah, it's different. I mean, is it really courage because she's got this, this, this, this crowd that she belongs to, and she's kind of conforming to their opinions, and she's perhaps afraid of what her neighbors will think if she gets a vaccine. It's true.

There's no, like, kind of higher. Well, I think it's just important. Courage is not just not doing, like, Courage is not just not doing what people want you to do. Just as freedom is not just freedom to give people a deadly virus. So I think you have to think about what are you deciding to be. Well, think about it with Dove, right? Dove saw himself as this courageous liberator and, you know, like that he was breaking down boundaries and he was brave enough to be in Malibu. Yeah, and it's like, actually, you had lost all self-control.

It's not the same thing. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important, though, to have kind of icons, church, and the world. And so, like, one person I looked at right now to mention you before, is the Russian Navalny? Yes. I think I may include him in the book,

because after we talk. Oh, yeah. I'm like, you know, I couldn't have that kind of purge, but I could admire it because he's basically, so he was in Germany after being poisoned. He got away. He knows they're gonna kill him, or they say he's gonna suffer,

and he goes back to Russia, and I couldn't do that. Now, but I admire that so greatly. So I think the ability to have people that you can say, maybe I can't do that, but boy, I admire it. Maybe that will have some meaning, if ever. I mean, similar circumstances, because I have a role model. You know, it's important that I live up

to these certain particular ideals. No, I think that's right. And I talked in the book about, it's like, sometimes you need the courage of the immigrant to leave the old world and come to the new world. But then you also sometimes, if everyone did that, things would never get better there. And so yeah, you think Martin Luther King

could have lived out his life peacefully and influence, or I mean, in New York City. And many times he would go back to the places where he knew he would be arrested specifically. He said I have to go back into the valley. Right, right. And I think that I think that's what Nebolly did is he went back even though he knew what would happen. And to me that's not just courage, that's a higher plane of what you would call heroism, if you think about, like, the Spartans were brave, but the decision to go to the Monkley is a level of courage that's, I think, almost transcendent.

Right. Right. Yeah, and I think your point about examples is good, and I love the long fellow poem, where it's the lives of great men all remind us we can make our lives sublime. Yeah. You need, that's also the problem with our study of history, where we try to project certain things. We strip ourselves of the ability to have heroes that we admire.

Oh, yeah, yeah, right, right. It's all like looking at through the prism of our own values now and so you know they believe in things that we are despicable. Did this one act that right? More or less do be as to us today. Who would ever survive that kind of scrutiny. You can even apply as opposed to Navalny if you wanted to be that cynical. Here's a bunch of regressive ridiculous beliefs from what I've read. Well, he did earlier. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, and that was actually something, maybe that's a good place for that. But I remember you told me this, you were like, read older books, like read older biographies just, you know, back to Plutarch and beyond, in that like the point, there was a pivot point in the literature where we decided that the role of the biographer was not to find what we can learn from this person or what made them great or special or whatever. It was like either, let me literally compile as many facts as possible or let me destroy this person piece by piece to the point where there's

really no reason to study them at all. And I think the older books do a better job, not of like sort of you know turning someone into being more than just a person, but actually looking at it from the frame of, like, what can I have done from this person? Yeah, and then of course, we now have like a hundred years later, we're able, there are a lot of books that were written in the past that we wouldn't like now, so we were able to judge that with the perspective of the years gone by. But I found basically that people in the past had fewer acts to grind. Yes, that they were, that they took the role of the biographer, as almost like it was the sacred thing that they were doing, that they had a role and a purpose,

which was to try and bring this person to life. Yes. Now of course, I'm being idealistic and there are certainly exceptions, but I find that now people just come with their narrow little bangle perspectives from 2021 and there's no kind of larger expansive, no sort of understanding of the psychology. You don't get inside the person Yeah, you know, and I talked a lot in mastery and that's a quote from Nietzsche, I can't remember which one about. When you read a book, your first move should always be not, should be to try and get inside the author, get inside the world of that you're entering.

And then, if you find things that you don't like, then you can kind of, but you first have to enter into the spirit. And I find a lot of biographers fall a little bit standard. And that goes to the idea of earnestness, like actually caring and being open and not being cynical and superior and superior, that's the right word. And you have to believe, right? So it's like, if you don't believe

that an individual can make a difference, then when you write about Churchill or whomever, your frame of reference is to think about how this person wasn't special. And if there isn't anything to learn from you, you're going into it with the spirit of debunking or minimizing. And you might as well just don't do it then. You know why spend five years of your life writing about someone you don't expect or that we shouldn't be? Because it'll sell because audience

where the audiences love the debunking, they love the cynicism. It feeds what Kirakriger calls the leveling process we're going through when there shouldn't be any great men or great women that we all kind of envies and that if you debunk a Lincoln who people are doing now, or you debunk a Roosevelt, who remember, wow, then I don't need to feel so inferior.

I'm just, you know, he's, he's worse than I do. Then I don't have to do anything. Yeah. So last thing, you mentioned Nietzsche, and I thought we should always talk about these the more fancy point that we tell you together. Yeah. Yeah. What people through what a more frothy means.

And I thought, I know we'd said on this exact caption talked about it like two years ago or more and more, but it strikes me that a lot of things which have required the idea of a more frothy have transpired in the last, in the year since we talked about it last mean for me personally. Well, no, I, for you personally, but I just mean in the last, in the year since we talked about it last. You mean for me, person? Well, no, I, I, for you personally, but I just mean in the world. Like, it's easy to say like, we're fucking love it all. And then the world grinds to a halt in a deadly pandemic. Right, right.

And businesses close and society's tearing itself apart. Yeah. How do you think about that? Now, well, it's, it's, it's, it's a truth. It's a principle that will stand the test of time. It doesn't matter what happens in the world. It's not like the pandemic is suddenly going to prove Nietzsche was wrong. The idea is things happened in the world. 98% of it's beyond our control. We're constantly dealing with pain. We're all going to die, right? Life involves obstacles as you title your book, etc.

Yeah, there's no getting around it. Right. So what is the point of kind of complaining or pushing against them to each of that mint, you are denying life itself because life involves adversity and pain. If you embrace the pain, if you embrace the adversity, you are embracing being alive itself, right? Sure. And so in the course of the pandemic, there are many advantages that you can get from that. I mean, of course, if members of your family die,

I don't mean to be a citizen. It would never have chosen to begin with. But, yeah. But, You would never have chosen it to begin with. Yeah, but, you know, and even if friends are dying, it teaches you about the transience of life, the impermanence, and how you could be dead tomorrow. You need to think about that. You need to think deeply about your career, perhaps. Your industry that you're involved in got wiped out. You need to like reassess who you are

where you're going in line. It's a time for meditation. It's a time for reassessing your position, you know? And then it's not like it's, I'm trying to elevate my story, but when I had a stroke, you know, everything that was a pleasure, my life was taken away from me, swimming, hiking, biking, etc. And then I had to find, well, what's the point? It just happened, I have to accept it, right?

And I have to find a way of finding something lessened from what they're incredibly valuable. So when you have a more faulty, when you say everything happens for a purpose and everything contains a potential for me to turn it into some incredibly valuable lesson. It means that you love life itself, that you are not a denier. And that was Nietzsche's greatest Bettenwar, his greatest pet peeve, those people who deny life, who know guys of being all about and the guys of being all about virtuous, etc. are against, you know, are basically trying to request the joy of being alive.

And the joy of being alive involves all the pain that goes with it. I was thinking about that because when I was driving a redriving cross-country, we get this terrible tire blow out the middle of the middle of the, to spend an hour and a half on the side of the road. It's two kids. Well, that's my point. So, an hour and a half on the side of the road, we get the tire change, drive to the

tire store, takes two hours. We can't wait in the waiting room because of the pandemic. So we end up spending two hours waiting in the cemetery across the street in the Arizona heat. But my son said something to me that made me realize in the midst of all this, he didn't understand, or he didn't understand that this was not part of the trip. Like that this would like that we were supposed to be driving, provide with a place and be done.

Like because he had no expectations, he also understands he's not in control of where we're going and what we're doing. He, I think, was under the impression that be done. Like because he had no expectations, he also understands he's not in control of where we're going and what we're doing. He, I think, was under the impression that we chilled for a while inside the room, and then we went and hung out in the cemetery, right? And that she was able to do that because he was kind of naturally at this place of like, life just is what it is. There's no way it's supposed to be. And since you don't get to have an opinion about it,

you might as well have the opinion that it's great. Yeah, yeah. Was this, was this, um, Clark? Yeah, this was Clark. Jones, at my youngest, just had even less understanding of what was happening. Obviously, there was points where they were uncomfortable or hot or whatever, but it just struck me as an adult.

My view was like, this is not how it's supposed to go. So therefore, it's bad. And then, as I was thinking about it from his perspective, it's like, well, what is a cemetery is really a park? Just outside, yes, they're standing on top of dead bodies. But it was also like, well, when would we do this? We would never just go sit in a park for two hours with no plans in the middle of a weekday ordinarily. And so we might as well see this as, if not good,

just life. Yeah, it was part of the plan. It was actually something that you planned on doing. Yes. You know, sometimes when I'm meditating, I'm sort of seized by this idea that the world just is as it is. It has no, doesn't have anything to do with my thoughts or my feelings, it just has this reality, right? Right. That completely transcends me as an individual.

So whether I'm upset or angry or whatever, it doesn't matter. It has no connection to me, right? Yeah, it just is what it is. And it's actually a really awesome feeling to sense that there's this kind of thing that transcends you completely. And it's just life going through its motions motions happening every day. It's the sun is shining and the plants up there don't know anything about Robert's problems. Right. You know, so yeah. Yeah, that was Marcus.

A really cool, he's quoting a lost play from Euripides, but he says, and why should you feel anger at the world as if the world would notice? Yeah, yeah. And it's like, yeah, why would you be upset by this? And punish yourself by not enjoying whatever it is. It's not a horrible thought of lost playing your rippities. I've so upset that we can't have these things. You know what struck me is that your rippities was more, this is like also, I think when you zoom way out, you get a different perspective in the industry. Your rippities was farther away from markets

and really, it's than we are from Shakespeare. Yeah. And so you're just like, oh man, you know. So he could read these laws, play. He either had a fragment of it or he knew the player, it was performed still and it was lost. And he wrote like 7080 plays of only which like 70 or 80 survived and they're

all amazing or maybe more. Yeah, I mean, obviously those lost forces are so soft, so those stokes. Do you think that a more faulty, because I was thinking about this, definitely during the pandemic, but a more faulty to me also feels very intertwined with the best piece of advice you gave me, which is a lifetime, dead time idea., to me, also feels very intertwined with the best piece of advice you gave me, which is a live time, dead time, idea. Because to me, a live time, Amor Fati is saying, yes to life. There's actually a new Victor Franco, like a series that a lost set of his lectures called. Yeah, the title to me is amazing. It's yes to life, the subtitle is, in spite of everything.

Oh, that's good. And to me, I feel like saying, is that his own title, or did they just put it in? I think that phrase is from, that's right. But the idea that a Morafati is saying yes to life, or to me, it is choosing a lifetime. Is that sound right to you? Yeah, I mean, so let's take the idea that you're in some awful, awful job, which the majority people are in church be honest. And I was in earlier, so I understand it very well. So if your attitude is goddamn, this juxtapce,

I can't wait till I get out of there. I hate these people. Why do I have to certain, fuck shit, fuck shit, etc. That is dead time. Right. Because you're not thinking, you're not interacting, you're just going through the motions eight hours passes and nothing is happening inside of you. You are dead. You are spiritually and morally dead inside. Right. But let's turn it around and you say, man, this job is kind of boring. But actually, I'm learning a lot about myself. I don't want to have this job.

I'm going to go to night school and go home and I'm going to study. And actually, these people I'm dealing with, if I try and actually help them or be nice to them, maybe something will come back to me or maybe I'll learn something about people's psychology. So your attitude is, I'm going to learn from this experience. Right. Now everything turns green inside you. It's like a plant that's living and growing and developing. And so that's to me is a lifetime. It can happen in any situation. And in meditations, and that's why we have the fire on the front works for this,

is that a fire turns everything into flame and brightness to me. It's great, and I think it's also the indictment. So if you're deciding to see it as dead time, or you're deciding to resent it, or argue about it, what you are implicitly admitting is that you don't have a very strong fire. That you're fired.

Because you know what? If you just have a little fire and you throw a big log on it, it puts it out, right? Or too much oxygen can put it out. But if the fire is really going, it translates, it lights it right up. It can take the table to consume it. It's great way to consume it. So you're essentially admitting,

like I don't have what it takes to, like you're the one that sucks. The job is what it is. You're the one who's not talented enough, driven enough, open enough, whatever to at least use it. That's not to say you have to do it forever. You can't leave and change. You will, but the thing is, think of it this way.

When you go in through it and you're in the dead time zone, which is, that's a lot of the time I've known a devil personally, you actually feel pretty bad about yourself at the end. You start getting down on yourself and you start developing this attitude that you maybe aren't worth more that you really can't achieve more than anything else. But if you make the transformation

like the fire that you're talking about, you have a tremendous sense of pride. Sure, like I had been able, you know, all these rich, privileged people they don't understand, I actually am going through hardship, but I'm turning into something great. You feel pride, you feel a sense of that you're worth something. And that translates in a year or two into actually creating and getting out of your shit job.

Right. So you create, in creating this larger fire, you create an attitude that's actually going to change your circumstances and it makes you feel much better about yourself. So why go in the opposite direction? Right. It's like life is too short to not to feel anything black or more procty because you're okay. You don't have a choice to noise while I can be. Yeah. Because you're, you're, but okay, you don't have a choice to do my life. Yeah. Yeah, it's not easy. No one says it's easy. No, but it's simple, but not easy. It's simple, but in, when doing something that's hard, there's an incredible value in taking these challenges head on. Sure. And not, you know, not being a wind and not being laughing, encouraged to, to turn it into something positive.

It was awesome to see you again. Yeah, yeah, it was great. And it does this for me. Thanks so much for listening. If you could leave a review for the podcast, we'd really appreciate it. The reviews make a difference and of course every nice review from a nice person helps balance out. The crazy people who get triggered and angry anytime we say something they disagree with.

So if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic Early and Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. in Apple podcasts.