The Daily Stoic - Robert Mckee on the Power of Storytelling

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Ryan talks to Robert Mckee about his new book Action: The Art of Excitement for Screen, Page, and Game, the importance of showing not telling, how to tell a great story, and more.Robert McKee is the most sought after screenwriting lecturer around the globe. He has dedicated the last 30 years to educating and mentoring screenwriters, novelists, playwrights, poets, documentary makers, producers, and directors internationally. Robert’s articles on Story have also appeared in hundreds of newspapers and magazines around the world including Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, Vanity Fair, The New Yorker Magazine, and more. He continues to be a project consultant to major film and television production companies such as 20th Century Fox, Disney, Paramount, & MTV. For more information, you can visit hismwebsite, which we have in the show notes.📕 Ryan Holiday's new book "Discipline Is Destiny" is out now! We’ve extended the pre-order bonuses for the next week—among them is a signed and numbered page from the original manuscript of the book. You can learn more about those and how to receive them over at Dailystoic.com/preorder. ✉️  Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom every day life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2, the 2000 year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us dailystow.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wendery's podcast business wars.

And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie adaptation, one of the great movies of all time. There's the scene where Nick Cage's character, well, actually my favorite scene in the movie

is where he goes, no one's ever written a book about flowers before and he goes, what about flowers for Algernon, which if you read that book as a kid, it's quite funny. And anyways, if you haven't seen the movie adaptation, there's a scene where Nick Cage's character goes to this writing workshop seminar thing for screenwriters and they portray today's guest, Robert McKee on it. And it's a brilliant scene, Brian Cox plays it. I'll even hear a play a little clip of it for you.

It's quite humorous. Yes. Sir, what if a writer is attempting to create a story where nothing much happens, where people don't change, they don't have any epiphanies, they struggle and are frustrated and nothing is resolved, more reflection of the real world. The real world? Yes, sir reflection of the real world. The real world?

Yes, sir. The real fucking world. First of all, you write a screenplay without conflict or crisis, you'll bore your audience to tears. Secondly, nothing happens in the world. Are you out of your fucking mind? People are murdered every day. There's genocide, war, corruption, every fucking day,

somewhere in the world, somebody sacrifices his life to save somebody else. Every fucking day, someone somewhere takes a conscious decision to destroy someone else. People find love, people lose it. For Christ's sake, a child watches a mother beating the death on the steps of a church. Someone goes hungry. Somebody else betrays his best friend for a woman. If you can't find that stuff in life, then you, my

friend, don't know crap about life. And why the fuck are you wasting my two precious hours with your movie? I don't have any use for it. I don't have any bloody use for it. Okay, thanks. So, although generally I'm quite skeptical of writing teachers, really anyone who hasn't done the thing, especially, let's say, academic writing teachers. I am most skeptical of, let's say, professors, if you will. I ended up several years ago taking a seminar with

Robert McKee, who's in the adaptation scene, who is the guru-slash teacher of most of the great screenwriters of all time, or certainly dozens and dozens and dozens of them He has a tour that he does called story nomics or this basically story for business So I don't read screenplays, but he talks about how you tell better stories how you tell the story of your business It's quite influential to me as a marketer and as a writer and that we had a dinner after and it was you know wonderful Experience and many years later. it's my honor to have him on the podcast today. The last 30 years Robert McKee has been educating

and mentoring screenwriters, novelist poets, playwrights, documentary makers, producers, and directors. If you've seen the Lord of the Rings, if you've seen Toy Story, find Nimo, basically any Academy Award winner over the last three decades, you've probably watched or consumed or enjoyed a work that descends from Robert's coaching tree. His new book, Action, the Art of Excitement for the Screen, Page, and Game is all, I'm merely about action stories,

and I would argue there really is no good story without action. So it is a conversation I very much want to have. Stephen Pressfield recommended it. If you've read The War of Art, you've also read some Robert McKee because Robert McKee writes the forward to that. And this fall is Robert's final lecture tour. He's not a young man, but he's still spry and sharp. And we have this great conversation. His last LA New York and London live dates, which you can find out about on his website at mckiestory.com. And you can follow him on Twitter at mckiestory. Check out the new book action, the

art of excitement for the screen page and game. And I'm excited to bring you this episode. It is also, I'm recording this a week or so before, but by the time you will be listening to this, disciplines destiny, the power of self control will be out into the world. Some of you will already be reading it. Some of you who ignore some of you who wait to the last minute will hopefully be scrambling to buy it. You'll be able to pick it up on audible today. You'll be able to pick it up on Kindle today. You can still get signed copies from me at dailystoke.com slash preorder. We're going to extend the preorder bonus

a little bit. But in the meantime, I would love for you to check out the new book. Discipline is destiny, which you can grab anywhere books are sold now or at dailystoke.com slash preorder. How you doing, Robert? Very well, you are right. I'm doing amazing. Should we just get started? Sure. I don't know if you remember, but I went to one of your story for business seminars several

years ago and we had dinner afterwards with Sean Coinc. Of course, I remember, yes, of course, yes. Well, that was very influential to me and I'm a big fan, so I love the new book and I'm excited to talk. I wanted to start actually with story for business and with all of what you do, which I think is interesting and refreshing, which is that although obviously you talk about story and you talk about drama and you talk about action, what you do and how you deliver your message is very straightforward, no frills. I remember the theater we ran, it was just you and Electern telling us what we needed to know for several hours. If I remember correctly, there was no big screen

and flash, you were just no frills, no nonsense. Yeah, well, for a very good reason, obviously. If you need frills and big screens and all of that, then you really have to question one of the content of what you have to say is really worth it. Why do you have to go through all this marketing and performance and spectacle? What's coming out of your mouth should be captivating to people and if it isn't then all the projections in the world is not going to help itself.

Yeah, I think about that when you watch a lot of these sort of charismatic speakers get up there, there's what's that expression? It's all hat and no cattle. Yeah, exactly. I got that straight. Well, you know, it's not, but I don't think that's new. I mean, I think that's been the case for thousands of years. I mean, there are people who taught rhetoric

and classical Greeks, you know, five, 600 BC. And they were already dealing with the fact that the speaker has to use the language in a powerful way. And telling them that you're wearing your hair around. It's old stuff. It's what people do. In the Aristotle, complained about the poetics, and said that the least important aspect of theatre is spectacle. And this is it. So this is when you're giving a talk, it's attention, right? Because some people are all spectacle and no content or no truth. And then it's also kind of a seductive thing or a lie we try to tell ourselves, which is we go, well, my message is so important. I don't need the frills.

I don't need to tell a story, right? Like, I guess there's this tension between spectacle, which is maybe the sizzle, and story, which you sort of argue is the steak. There has to, even if it's no frills and no nonsense, you still have to be taking the reader or the listener or the viewer on some sort of journey. Yeah, well, I don't like that word, journey, but it's a euphemism, and I try to avoid euphemisms. Why? Why is that? Why? Why? Why do you avoid euphemisms? Because euphemism is a word that we use when we cannot face reality. So we have all kinds of euphemisms for pieces. We don't want to have to face the reality.

And that journey is one of those California words that And, uh, journey is one of those California words that, uh, evolved into the Buckebi Laryano 10 15 years ago. As a euphemism for struggle. Mm. Life is not a journey. A journey, literally, is you get on a bus in Akron, Ohio, and it takes you to Chicago, and you sit passively watching the farm land mobile, that's what injures you. Life is not passive. You don't watch the scenery go by. Life is an uphill matter.

an uphill battle to try to make meaning and something worth living for a day and a day out, but it's a certain kind of mind that doesn't want to pay you. Is that? Well, so what's a better word than for the sort of point A to point B that you take a consumer of your message through. Like I feel like the best works, my best writing, I start with where the reader is and I get them somewhere else. I take them somewhere else. Yeah, but they have to learn, they have to concentrate, they have to pay, they have to pay in an idea from you and compare that to all the other ideas in their head that may contradict it, that are exceptions to whatever principle you're giving them and they have to wrestle and struggle with an idea before they can believe it. Yeah, and they may or may not ever believe them. And they make passage judgments saying, you know, all this nonsense, or they may be wild.

That's fantastic. And so it's not a passage. It's not a journey. It's not a smooth from point A point, you know, as whatever it is. It's a constant uphill battle trying to make sense out of life and make sense out of what someone else is saying. And I'm sure that the people listening to me, we are speaking right now, are sitting here going, and he's got his head on his ass. It's exactly the journey. And why is he, my favorite word, why is he condemning it? So... But that's sort of the point, right?

Is that you're fighting against those preconceived notions. So it's not a, it's not a passive thing. That makes sense to me. Yeah. And so, you know, so any word, any word, any, any bit, you know, I mean, what we engage in, any bit, you know, I mean, what we engage in first and foremost is language. Yeah. And if you don't use truthful words, accurate words, honest words, if you try to pretend, and especially when not in the world as it's evolved in my lifetime, There's an aversion, stronger version. I think you heard this I'm sure I know you did in the the Stronomics day that you went to and there's an aversion to all

things negative. Yeah. And so in some way says life is a struggle that troubles people. So when somebody says life is a struggle, that troubles people, they want it to be a journey. Because it says conflict. Sure. And the end of a struggle says, you may not make it. You may struggle and lose. Your life may be a disaster. You may regret it on your death day.

You know, that's a real possibility. You may choose to end it prematurely. I mean, it's, right? Sure. If it's a struggle, you can lose a struggle. It's a battle. You can be defeated. And so, uh, journey doesn't allow that.

See, where like journey means there's no downside. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah, it's something. Yeah, so it was probably spending too much time on the subject, but the violence, I don't even truthful, accurate language and looking at the thing in the eye for what it is. And so I think any writer who cares about what they do, You've emissions aren't entering. Yeah, I sometimes hear from people when you say, like, life is a battle to go, but that's a violent metaphor,

or that's too masculine, which again is this sort of, well, I don't like what that implies, so I want to use a more pleasant way of describing some of that. I put it in here. It's so arrogant. Because women don't have a struggle in life. Sure. The battle is a male. As you have women don't fight battles day in and day out,

right? And that's sort of, that's just a sort of an arrogant in say, well, there are certain words that are masculine, certain words that are feminine. Is it women living in a different reality than men? I mean, that's terrible. So. Or that by changing the words, you change reality, right? Just because you've chosen a more pleasant way of describing

something doesn't mean that the fundamental reality of like if you come up with a nice word for gravity, that doesn't change the fact that if you step out over a ledge, you're going to come crashing down to earth. Exactly. There is this notion, and it's true, of course, that the way you're upbringing and the way you're educated and the totality of your experience, shapes the way you see reality, and that is true. And certainly, for every single human being, the way they see reality is mischrained to some degree. Limited, you know, it's prejudicial, it's,

it's, and for avoidance. And so it's not, but reality doesn't change. Right. Reality is what it is. You are in fact going to die. That is real. And you're nothing you can do to change that. You can have an attitude toward it.

You can accept it. You can do whatever it is, right? But it's real. And so somehow in our thinking, we think that we can change reality by changing our attitude toward it. And there's two of them out. You can change the way reality affects you by changing your attitude toward it. So it's not that you don't have any control or things, but that's some or later things

happen that you can't control. Yeah. Well, so to go to the way you present, because I think it's interesting, people want to tell themselves, oh, my message is good, my cause is right, my idea is correct. And so that should be enough, right?

I shouldn't have to, I shouldn't have to, you know, tell a story. I shouldn't have to be conscious or deliberate with the language that I use. People should just hear me because I'm right. And what I liked about what you do is you are sort of straight down the middle. There's not a lot of frills, but at the same time, as a deep believer in story and characters and arcs and word choice, how do you think about that balance? Because I'm sure you see a lot of people who fail miserably at getting their point across because they think they shouldn't have to try very hard to get their point across. Well, they're delusional. So, they're not trying to lose to those people. But the notion that someone between rhetoric, argumentation of some kind, proving their point, and story. Those are two different things.

It's nonsense. Story is an effective means to communicate an idea. idea and by engaging the listener in the story itself and creating an epiphany where the listener goes, oh yeah, I get it. Right. And it's telling the story is just another way of expressing meaning and a very powerful way to do it right, to do it well. And so it's not a choice. I shouldn't have to resort to story. It's not like you should use story order to clarify and intensify your meat and so it's a false choice.

I mean, it's a false dichotomy. It's a part of rhetoric, you know. Well, I just, I think about that most basic piece of writing advice, which, you know, everyone gets, and yet we all struggle with, that sort of dichotomy between showing and telling. People wanna tell, they don't wanna show, cause it's harder to show, and even though one obviously persuades better

than the other. Well, the problem is, of course, that expressing your meaning and the story to be persuasive requires talent. You have to have a certain amount of creativity. You have to be able to imagine beyond the fact what is and create what could be and embroider what is into the what could be. And that's difficult. And requires creativity a classic PowerPoint presentation is simply a junior high school essay with special effects. Here's the point I'm going to prove. Here's my proofs, one, two, three, five. Therefore, I've proved it, right? They teach you that in sixth grade, and I compose an essay. And our point presentations are as I said,

essays, and they don't require creative talent. They require logic, rigorous research, you have to build an argument, you have to prove things. And so it requires our great intelligence and discipline and a skill, by all means. But it does require the creativity that is story behind it. And so people went, it's nothing worse than telling a story better. And so people avoid it if they don't have the challenge. And I understand

that. I mean, you know, why would you embarrass yourself if you don't have the, the, the, the companies and the creativity to do it? So just, you know, a stick with a genus, let's say, with special effects. Well, I think about that because in my writing, you know, I taught, I teach philosophy in my writing, but I've made the decision that instead of explaining philosophy, which is what most philosophers do and therefore have essentially next to no audience, I want to illustrate philosophy through stories. I tell stories from history and literature and sports and politics, I illustrate the idea,

and I leave it to the reader to take how to apply it more to their own life. And what I don't do, and this is where I think why most stories are so boring, is that there's this urge to make yourself the center of the story, as if you're that interesting. I try not to use the word I in my books. I try to talk about people that are more interesting than I am. Very good. Yeah, I'm saying here. I don't use me. I don't use that pronoun ever. Yeah. I use you a lot. Yes. And they end down for me. Not even cage lie, I shouldn't say it, but that's because occasionally, I do use

me or us when I'm referring to as audience. And so anyway, yeah, I know, it's true that people who, the philosophers and the essay, and they write, and the books they write, have a very limited audience. And that's...that's a shame. Yeah. Hey there listeners! While we take a little break here,

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the struggle against boredom. You have to figure out how, if you see it as a battle for attention, you have to figure out how to win that battle. story is one way. Obviously, action is the most compelling story that there is, right? Like people want to be titillated. They want to be entertained, right? It's like to go to the movie gladiator. Are you not entertained? They have to be entertained

if you want to capture their attention. And you're fighting against a lot of stuff to get that attention. Yeah, true, but that tree's action is if it were trivial. And sure, no, I don't think it is. The core value in action is life and death. Yes, stakes. The stake is life and death. Yeah.

For I'm stories, it's not. It's justice and injustice. And in war, it's not. It's justice and injustice. And in war, it's human value. That is not the issue in war, victory and defeat. Sure. It's a value of the state in war. And so action speaks bicariously to the most profound experience human beings have, which is the struggle to

take the next breath, to stay alive. And it's a metaphor for the human struggle against all the forces that would extinguish it. And some people love actions, not because it is entertaining, but that it's a good love story. So it's a good, you know, any good character drama and, you know, about watching a human being redeeming themselves more or less compelling if it's well done, right? And so it's, and like any other genre, action can be trivialized.

But when it's at its best, like any other genre, love stories can be trivialized. But when love is at love stories told beautifully and compelling way. It's a great from powerful to proud. And so the very best of action is a metaphor to struggle against all the negative forces in life that would take our lives from us and our struggle to rescue the people in our lives that are in that you know important to us and so and and and it's the trying to find the mean yourself and path to be heroic to risk yourself for the betterment of other people, whoever you care about.

And so it's the, and that action, as I said, is the staple of show business. Yeah. And for a good reason, because we, the world today, given war going on and playing politics and all the pressure of modern life, seek action as an experience that will give them the equipment to live in the face of all of this adversity. And so it's, you know what, I would resist trivializing action to some sort of popcorn eating dinner. I loved it since I was a kid. In the book, it's a very first chapter. I thought about how we would come to love action as children.

And that, but as you get to be an adult adult you become more sophisticated in your taste for action and we still but then we have high demands about the quality of action we're often disappointed but still but there's a reason why the action genre is the most popular storytelling form. And it mixes, there's action war, action crime, action love stories in fact, action of all kinds mixed with various other others. And so the action line is some very complex book. And so to get to help the writer master, that genre, to understand not to have downrighted, but to respect it and understand its demands

and its possibilities, I wrote this book by Colbert, that's seen you know what he wrote. And because we both, we believe that this is this metaphor of action, the metaphor for life and death, is the oldest war of writing. The we know in the Western world, the first war to the most fantastic action story. So this is an ancient and honorable drama. There's something, there's something timeless about it. I was, I just watched the new top gun and you watch it and it's both very modern and then very out of place because it feels like it picked up where a movie from the 80s dropped off and then at the same time feels indistinguishable from

even though they're flying around in fighter jets, it's not that different than a play by euripides or escalus or something, right? Like what they're doing, the means by which they're fighting the specific technology involved in the action might change, but it's still sort of mono-emano, right? It's still man versus the elements or man versus fate. That's the core of all of these stories. Well, in the first chapter of my action book, I take the reader through the genres. And the 16 principal genres, and then another 10

presentational genres. So for example, comedy is not a principal genre. Comedy is a style. You can laugh at any type of principal, right? And actually comedy. Yeah. And so you, they mix. And, but there are 16 principal genres

and they all have a core cast that we know, right? The two lovers and a love story, right? Bureau victim of villain in that action story. The enemy and the warrior in the war spirit said, they all have a forecast, they all have a different value, core value, and they all have certain, or event that you know has to happen sooner or later, some time, right? Sure. And so when we go to any story,

after you've lived long enough, as a kid, you know, and experienced enough stories, you always know that there's a certain set of action, always know that there's a certain set of action and value, cast, event, and emotion that you're going to have an experience in this. And there's only 16 fundamental differences are invented by all the 10 different ways to present something. And so the variety of storytelling is infinite, but there are these genres. And we know them. And there's no waiting.

Nobody's about to invent a 4,000 years of storytelling, that we know of. So, the task is, can I take this form? And with research and imagination, find a new setting for it, new ways to treat the characters, etc. And so we know that the top gun had antecedents back when, right? But some 12-year-old today doesn't know how. Yeah. And so they go to tab on

is that they, you know, they've never seen before. So the one we're excited. An excitement is the core emotion of action. And it's, you know, it's, it lives your heart. It's, you know, it's, it lives your heart. That is one thing about the action genre that I like, which is, and I think you saw this in Top Gun also, there's kind of an earnestness in it, right? Yes, there's sometimes a cynicism in an action movie, there can be, and sometimes the hero is jaded, or sometimes there's an anti-hero. But, you know, there's typically not a lot of irony in an action movie. There is kind of an earnest belief in good and evil that living is

better than dying. There is a straight forwardness, almost a hope in that straight forwardness, in the action movie that I find both refreshing and probably contributes to its timelessness. It's why we can relate to a story from 2000 years ago because that same drive that human desire to live rather than die can't be dodged. Yeah, yeah, there is irony, for example, in very complex high-adventure works, where the irony is that the worst of people ultimately have its reveal an impulse toward good. Yeah. And, and, and, and, or the best of people, it's ultimately revealed, have an impulse for evil.

Yeah. And so, you know, there, there is a contradiction within nature, but because the action drawn to we know that at the end of the day, no matter how bad hero looks, how violent they are, how tough they are, how cynical they are, at the heart of hearts, there's altruism. And then villain, let a house seductive, clever or attractive or windy or whatever at the end of the day at the heart of the heart. There is narcissism of the most bio-cunning. And so we think up on it that in the matter of the house, the skies, there are certain

helplessness. There's a certain truth at the heart of things. And if it's not there, we're really disappointed. Yeah, yeah. There's a Nicholas Mosley quote that I love. And he said, it is taboo these days in the way that sex was once taboo, which the taboo is that life has meaning, that there is any meaning in life. And I think there's something, you know, in action movies and in great art that sort of affirms that fundamental meaning that, you know, good and evil, that it's better to be good and evil, that there's a purpose to all this and that there's a reason that we struggle, that it's not all pointless and that there is an answer to some of these existential questions,

I guess, is what art is really about. Yeah. That's the exact, the existentialist argue that no, there is no intrinsic thing like, but you have to be single. You have to have a purpose, what they call the project. You have to have, you have to find it in your way in your life, what gets you up in the morning and gives your life needed. And you have to discover it for yourself.

You can't come on a society to hand you one. Because if you believe, if you do, if you just let society hand you one, they will come and point your life where you will lose faith in that need that other people gave you. And so you will have to find your own. And the simplest meaning of all, I mean, it's not that difficult. And in the sense that there are certain realities. And one of them is people suffering. There isn't no question about it. Life is brief, you're going to die and you're going to suffer along the way and not going to get what you want and you're going to be frustrated. And some certain people suffer a hell of a lot more than others.

But even the people who are the well enough off suffer because they can't find meaning. I mean, they're suffering. So anything that a human being could do is meaningful. And one of the reasons that people write in child stories and create films and novels and plays is because art helps alleviate the suffering of human beings by giving them a clear understanding of what's a stake. What the risks are. The one human being at the resources in human being has to find within themselves to somehow get through it and minimize the suffering. And so when people say that life is a meeting, I understand,

the suffering. And so when people say that life is a meeting, I understand, certainly I understand, it means there's no intrinsic meaning. Sure. But just to glance around the world and into your own heart, you realize that alleviating the suffering in yourself and other people is meaningful. suffering in yourself and other people is meaningful. Yes. So how can you say that there is no mean? Obviously there's a mean if you want to engage with the suffering, but you know that but some of the people today that's negative. The recognition of suffering is a negative experience. And they don't want to have to face it. They don't want to have to deal with it. They want to excuse it somehow or blame it on people suffering so wrong. But whatever it is, they want to avoid conflict with truth.

So in the action genre, there's always someone who's suffering, and that's the victim. And the altruism of a hero is their effort to rescue and try to save the victim from suffering, the fate that the the the villain promises and so that's a metaphor for meeting Yeah, and take you know alleviating the suffering saving another human being or whatever yourself from suffering Slick did I you by the circumstances is a meaningful act I so and so I is it meaning black? I know. And so I think I'm trying to figure out, I've read notes,

why has action become so immensely popular? Why is it being incorporated in everything it seems? I just watched, finished the wonderful series, Ozark. Yeah. And that's a genre called domestic drama. It's about a family, but it also makes it's crying voice. And it's a terrific action sequence, of sure. Yeah, it's so.

It's everything. And my sense is that more than ever, the battle between the Black and Death has captured the hearts of people and they feel it very cheaply in their own life. I would argue probably in a world where, as the Rose said, most men live lives of quiet desperation. And when there is an increasing feeling of kind of impotence or ineffectualness, politically, socially, even technologically, that part of our attraction towards action is it's a world where there are heroes. It's a world where there are people who are doing something about it. I'm writing about this now, but I was

just reading Jacob Reese's famous book, How the Other Half Lives, which he wrote about poverty in the 20th century and in New York City, or I guess late 19th century, early 20th century. But he has this line in the first chapter of the book where he goes, the perennial question is, what are you going to do about it? Right? And to me, that's the question of most great action stories, too, is what is the hero going to do about it? Yeah, you see that means the throw's choice of the word desperation. It means using the adjective quiet.

Yeah. Okay, but that's deducted because in fact inside of the mind of such a person, it's not quiet. True. From the outside, we see somebody living a life of what we perceive as quiet desperation, but it's very loud inside of the mind of a person. And so desperation does a sin in it for a suffer. And that being that person in their own life, it's struggling if they can to become heroic. And they have to, and they, they are the victim that they have to say.

Sure. And so you've got, you are in an act, you know, someone in that condition, you are the victim and potentially the hero if you can save yourself and you care not about yourself to make the effort and do it. Right. Or you can just swallow it in us. That's a good trick. When you step into the second, at length. And the reason why the action genre, I think speaks to people amongst others is that it calls you to be a hero.

It shows you heroism. It shows you the motivation of heroism. Isn't just to defeat evil, it's to rescue the victim. And you therefore, the hero has to be altruistic. They've got to be willing to risk or even sacrifice their life with a life of another human being. Sure. And that is a hell of a demand. People are willing to take chances and to struggle for their own life. But to act and risk your life even die, in order to save the life of another human being, that's heroic.

And that kind of altruism is rare indeed. I like the the long fellow line in a song of life. He says, lives of great men all remind us we can make our lives sublime and departing leave behind us footprints on the sands of time. The idea to me of the the purpose of action and these sort of stories of heroes is hopefully, I think, if done, what, obviously, it should entertain. Obviously, if you're taking, if you're being funded by a studio or a publisher, it should make someone money. But the core purpose of the art, the human impulse that reason we do these things is to hopefully inspire people to be a little more heroic in their real life. Yeah, and that word you're quote is very telling. It includes the word sublime.

Yes. And even say beautiful, he said sublime means beauty with a dark side. Definitely, the sublime has, when it darkens, interested and it expresses it beauty. And so being a poet, of course, means the word choices are absolute. And so on and off, when some of you is not, it would work with you, it's the word like some line. And he understands that there's darkness. And the darkness made beautiful is richer by far than anything that is just plainly beautiful

or even pretty. And then you have to, you know, it's there in your life and you have to find a way to live through it with it. And when you do, it's more beautiful than beautiful. It's symbolic. But I like this humility too, just footprints in the sands of time. It's not some enormous monument necessary. Yeah, but it is your footprint. Yes. You know that old, the Yiddish Joe, where they

where the young person goes to the rabbi and says, what is the meaning of life? And the rabbi says, what if you reach grain of sand, the infinite universe. And then you reach into your left hand pocket and you pull out a message that says, I am the most important thing that ever lived. And he said, it's somewhere in between. So yeah, yeah, yeah, he made with these nights, nights, but you know, but well, the speed of footprints in the sands of time, one thing I'm also writing about, I was fascinated by coaching trees, like in professional sports, not just what a coach does, but what the coaches on their staff go on to do, right?

So the, you can track the influence of a, of a great coach like Greg Popovich, the coach of the San Antonio Spurs, his former assistant, Becky Hammond, just won a WMBA title yesterday with the aces, right? So his impact is it just the titles that he's won, but what the people he has trained and mentored and influenced, what they've gone on to do. And it suddenly are our web or our ripple effect of our influence becomes quite large. How do you think about that with your legacy? It's pretty incredible. quite large. How do you think about that with your legacy? It's pretty incredible. They list in the back of the book just what your students have gone on to do. You have had an immense influence on people who have gone on to have an immense amount of influence. And that's a pretty impressive set of footprints in the sands of time, so to speak.

Yeah, he is. Somebody like, you know, great coach doesn't play the game. Yeah. They explain what it is. And they have memories of bringing out the talent and potential in their player. But I, in my career before I was writing or teaching writing, I was a director in the theater. directed something over 60 plays and And you're an acting coach and And also you're a design coach and the lady coach and you're you know, you're you're coaching all of the crafts and costuming and all of us And and so all those people are players in your production, but then come open ignite, you're

sitting in the back of the theater with a note pad in your lap, and it's how your hands. And so you cannot teach a writer how to write. You can't teach anybody how to do it, the how they have to do it themselves. Sure. All you can teach is what it is. And the clearer they're understanding of what it is, understanding of what it is, and the more they understand what is fundamental, what is ancillary, what's a thrill, you know, and don't confuse the frills for the essentials, you know, and when they have a sense of balance and proportion, and they understand what something is. And intelligence, they can then do it. And so it's, I take great pleasure and pride in seeing the writers that I coach, achieve what they've achieved and the beautiful works that move me, they came out of them. But I don't believe myself in the picking that I did it. Sure.

They did. And people, although I'm this word, thank God it's part of the fashion. But that one, I was first doing the lectures. Journalists were constantly using the term guru. Yeah. And that really annoyed me because it's an insult to my students. Guru is a guru as we became used as a slur. It's followed by mindless people who prayed after the guru, taking every word in, whatever it is, and not thinking for themselves.

And so the, to call me a guru, was an insult to my students. And I was an occasionally I was going out to journalists and in my class, are our oscillators and pure oscillators and booker winners and and any winners whatever they're already very good they're already very good they don't need a guru they just need to clarify because they it's gotten in them and their memory why they came to the circle in the first place, and what

is fundamental to it? Sure. And so, but I certainly would have happily accepted the title Coach, the writer, Glenn Koch, and that's what the book on action is. It's a coach's book for players in that sport, so to speak, of action, so that they can like Aaron Judge, they can get a home run. What? Watching Aaron Judge this year, it reminds me his swing from the right hand side, reminds me of the greatest swing I've ever seen in baseball, which was from the left hand side, and that was 10 Williams. And the beauty of Ayridge Edge's swing, we'll talk about the spline. Yeah.

Beauty of Ayridge Edge's swing is sublime because he hits the ball so hard, it's viral, but done with this smoothness, it's elegance and grace. And so I hope that writers understand that if they want to incorporate action or write it straight forward action story, that there is a certain grace. There's a beautiful way to do this. And then there's clumsy awkward ways to stumble into it. And if I can coach them into at its ancient genre and do it in a beautiful, fresh way. And then I hope that I was right with the hope that I'm going to be surprised, at some point in the future, when I go to see a film or read an novel.

when I go to see a film or read an article, and one of my students wrote, and it takes that genre to us blind low. Yes. That's the most satisfying experience of all. Well, I just had a very weird experience related to what you're just talking about, which is I got a message from Aaron Judge that he had read a couple of my books and he was, that he told me that he had just been listening to my book Stillness is the key on the way to

the stadium. And now there's obviously nothing in any of my books that I can teach this person, right? He's already one of the greatest of all time. But I think it goes to your point, which is that the very best, the most dedicated to their craft, often return to things that help them see the principles or the game

or the craft that they already understand in a new way. It's a way of revisiting and studying and centering themselves to access the gifts and the knowledge that they already have. The stoic say we never step in the same river twice. Sometimes it's just about coming back to that river and then they, that's what a coach helps them do, I feel like. Well, that's wonderful. I mean, the word stillness. I was just talking about the beauty, the divine beauty, the angel of the swing. One of the qualities clearly in that swing is stillness.

Yeah. And then he read your book on stillness. And it added... You see, gee, a player, an artist, athlete, business person, anybody engaged, right, in work and struggle. engaged right in working struggle. To be denied to realize that if your mind is going a mile a minute you're not going to get the truth you want to accomplish. And that the notion of stone, stoneness is a positive attribute. Yeah. I mean, because often people think the opposite,

they think I've got to work hard and fast and in every possible direction. And then, in a frustrated, I can't figure out why I'm not getting done what I want. And so, if you just put the word stillness in front of somebody as a positive attribute, the way you've done with your book. A like ball goes on. The wonder my swing is so jagged and it lacks stillness. That's great, that's great. That's great, that's just great. That's wonderful, I love that. I love that. It's part and parcel with what I try to do.

I try to say these are the absolute fundamentals of the art form. Therefore, it is the hardest thing to do because it's fundamental. And you cannot be avoided. You've got to confront this head on. There are certain primary attributes to action, the altruism of a hero, the narcissism of the villain, and the helplessness of the victim. For example, there are certain fundamental tactics in the struggle during an action film.

And it can't be avoided. And so you have to figure out, take what is essential and do it all the way. But the beginning point is to realize it's essential. You can't escape it. If you try to escape it, you will fail. And you have to face it and do it. You're away.

And so that's the end but that's that's in a matured for my writing and my teaching for a decade now is eyes put all the time, output emphasis on absolute essentials. Yeah. And the those things that cannot be escaped, because they're hard, they're really hard. If you can't cope with it, then you're trying to escape, and then you're ready to just toss it apart. And so that's still a softball. And in a sense, it's a value decision.

This is absolute, other things are secondary. And there's a Jeff Bezos quote, he says, the secret to Amazon is that we focus on the things that don't change, right? So people think Amazon's a sort of cutting edge, fancy tech driven company, which it is in many ways, but it's like fundamentally what do people want? They want stuff cheap and they want it fast.

That doesn't change. And I feel like you're teachings about story. You're not like, here is the latest special effects. Here's the latest trend in movies. Here's what studios want. You're focused on the things that don't change, that haven't changed since Gilgamesh. Well, you see, the problem is that, you know, and a lot of writers, when they're young, want to follow a trend.

Yes. They want to, you know, they want to imitate what's current in their own way, but they want power with trend. And the trouble with that thinking is, if you do try to follow a trend, you are always 10 years of age. Right. Because that trend began 10 years ago. Yes. By some original artists who had a hell of an idea, it took a few years to get that idea on paper,

and then that idea headed to their agent, and it took a few years to get that script to wherever, which are novel to a publisher, and took years to get that book or that film made and out into the world. A decade passed from the inspiration that created it to the final presence in the world and you are too late. You're 10 years too late and so far better for you to try it. Why don't you just try to create something that other people will undertake? Yes. other people will undertake. Yes. Yes. Do do something original slash timeless. There's a paradox between those two things. Yes. But that is that is actually the safest thing to do. Well, it's safest in the sense that if you don't do it, you will fail. Yes. It's dangerous not to do it. It's lethal. Definitely not't do it, you will fail. And it's dangerous not to do it.

It's lethal, deadly not to do it. But I know how, but again, I know how people think because they look up at the screen or they look at the novels for sale and the video games action is written in many ways for the video game creator. Sure. They look at video games action is written in many ways for the video game reader. Sure. They look at video games and they look at phones and novels and whatnot. And they say, you know, that's crap.

Now, if that crap gets made, why should my crap get made? My crap. That's what the market wants. I could do that. My crap is better craft than that craft. Yeah. And that kind of sentences of, of course, gets a nowhere.

And then the other competition with thousands of other writers who are just as willing to sell out. And so you just matter of luck then. But the way you preemannicked luck is quality. Yes. Well, Robert, your work has been so helpful to me and it's been an honor to have this conversation and I hope everyone checks out the new book action and I can't recommend the seminars and your other stuff highly enough.

Well, it's been a terrific year and an hour with you. So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Likewise. Thanks so much for listening to the Daily Stoke podcast. If you don't know this, you can get these delivered to you via email every day, check it out at dailystoke.com slash email. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic Early and Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon

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