The Daily Stoic - Socrates vs. The Thirty Tyrants | Philosophy in an Age of Fear

Episode Date: February 16, 2025

The Thirty Tyrants were a ruthless group that crushed anyone who opposed them. Socrates had personal ties to some of its leaders but refused to take part in their brutal actions. Yet, his silence in the face of their regime would later come back to haunt him when he was put on trial.Today's audiobook excerpt is from How to Think Like Socrates: Ancient Philosophy as a Way of Life in the Modern World by Donald Robertson.📚 Pick up copies of Marcus Aurelius: The Stoic Emperor and How To Think Like A Roman Emperor: The Stoic Philosophy of Marcus Aurelius from The Painted Porch. 🎙️ Listen to Donald Robertson's interview on The Daily Stoic Podcast | Apple Podcasts and Spotify🎥 Watch Donald Robertson’s first interview with Ryan on YouTubeCheck out Donald's SubstackFollow Donald on X: @donjrobertsonFollow Donald on IG: @donaldjrobertson🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Daily Stoic is based here in this little town outside Austin. When we have podcast guests come in and go, oh, what hotel should I stay at? Honestly, there's not really many great hotels out here, but there are a bunch of beautiful Airbnbs that you could stay in a ranch. You could stay on something overlooking the Colorado River. They've even got yurts in the woods out here. And Airbnb has a million different options, old historic houses.

Usually when I travel, I'm staying in an Airbnb. That is when I'm bringing my kids. We make a whole experience of it. And usually what I do is I pull up Airbnb, I look at guest favorites, I type in, okay, we want this many rooms, this many bathrooms, we want a pool, we want a washer and dryer, whatever it is. And you can find an awesome place to stay in.

And I've been doing it now, crazy me, at least 15 years I've been staying in Airbnbs, basically since it came out. I love Airbnb and you should check it out for your next trip. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic podcast. On Sundays, we take a deeper dive into these ancient topics with excerpts from the Stoic texts, audiobooks that we like here or recommend here at Daily Stoic, and other long form wisdom that you can chew on on this relaxing weekend. We hope this helps shape your understanding of this philosophy and most importantly, that

you're able to apply it to your actual life. Thank you for listening. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. So I'm just finishing up the wisdom book here. And one of the people that I read a lot about, obviously, is the man that the ancients credited with bringing wisdom down from the heavens, Socrates, the hero of the Stokes and the hero basically of every philosopher to come since. That's why I was very excited. I sent Steve, my agent, a note when

I saw it. I said, wait, did Donald Robertson just write a book about Socrates? How do I not have this yet? And he was nice enough to send it to me back earlier this year. And Donald came out and did the podcast. I think it's his third or fourth appearance. I always love his stuff. I love his book, "'How to Think Like a Roman Emperor'," which would carry the painted porch. And then his new book,

"'How to Think Like Socrates' Ancient Philosophy as a Way of Life in the Modern World." His publisher was nice enough to give us a couple excerpts of it, which I wanted to share with you today to do a deep dive into, not just one of the greatest minds of antiquity, but a man who lived in times not unlike ours,

time filled with jealous people, a time filled with stupid people, a time filled with short-sighted people, a time filled with political unrest and dysfunction. Socrates is put to death ultimately by a democracy, by the legal system, but before that he lived in Athens that was ruled by the 30 tyrants. And so in today's episode, I wanted to bring you that chapter.

It's chapter 10 from How to Think Like Socrates, the 30 Tyrants. And I think there's some great lessons in here. And any chance I have to share Donald's work, I like to do. We ran chapter five, The Wisest Man Alive, back in December. I'll link to Donald's other books here in the show notes. You can grab How to Think Like Socrates,

Ancient Philosophy as a Way of Life in the Modern World, anywhere books are sold. This is an excerpt of the audiobooks. If you like that, definitely go and grab the audiobook. I really like his biography of Marcus Aurelius. That's Marcus Aurelius, the Stoic Emperor. Then of course, How to Think Like a Roman Emperor, the Stoic Philosophy of Marcus Aurelius.

Also great, we've got all those at the Painted Ports. You can follow Donald on Twitter, Don J. Robertson and on Instagram, Donald J. Robertson. Here's Socrates and the 30 Tyrants. Chapter 10. The 30 Tyrants. Socrates listened to the cries spread throughout the streets of Athens, until it sounded as if panic gripped the entire city. Word had arrived first at the harbour of Piraeus, where the state ship Paralis had docked, bearing news of their fleet's total annihilation. The citizens of Athens lay awake that night, their sleep disturbed by images of the punishment that now awaited them. Those old enough to have voted in the assembly for the massacres

committed in their name on Melos and elsewhere began to feel the painful bite of remorse. Any day the Spartans would come, and, they feared, show them the same cruelty that they had inflicted upon others, and perhaps even worse. After Lysander captured the Athenian fleet at Aegis Potomai, he sailed from one city to the next, securing Sparta's control of the region, and tightening its stranglehold on Athens' crucial grain supply, the very danger Alcibiades had warned against. Lysander granted any Athenian he found in the region safe passage home, but this was no act of mercy. Athens would soon become overcrowded with refugees, and more mouths than they could hope to feed.

King Aegis of Sparta already had troops stationed at Dysselia, ten miles north of the Acropolis. Almost every Athenian ally had surrendered. Lysander now sailed to Athens with 150 ships to blockade Piraeus. Pausanias, the other king of Sparta, camped a huge army outside the city walls, in the grounds of the Academy Park. Socrates had taken part in the siege of Potidaea during the outbreak of the war. Now, almost three decades later, he found himself trapped in Athens, a city besieged by and about to fall to the victorious Spartans. Lysander waited three months for the Athenians to begin dying of starvation before allowing them to negotiate terms of surrender. Theramenes was sent to Sparta as the envoy of Athens, where he found Corinth and Thebes, Sparta's most powerful allies, demanding that his city be destroyed.

The Spartans, though, had long memories. They considered it prudent to show mercy to a city that had twice helped Greece defend itself against a Persian invasion. Theramenes returned with the news that Athens would be spared if the long walls and fortifications of Piraeus were levelled and all but twelve of their ships given up. The Athenians, the terms read, must have the same friends and enemies as the Spartans, and be led by them in war on land or sea. Finally, all exiles must be recalled, including aristocrats sympathetic to Sparta, who would form an oligarchic government. The assembly was forced to accept. The Spartans proclaimed they had set all of Greece free from Athenian tyranny. While flute girls played in celebration, the defeated citizens of Athens were forced to tear down their precious

defences with their own hands. The assembly met, surrounded by soldiers, and appointed thirty oligarchs to revise the constitution, modelling it on that of Sparta, whose Council of Elders, or Gerousia, had the same number of members. The leaders were to be Critias, the former student of Socrates and friend of Alcibiades, Caracles, a radical who had led prosecutions over the scandal of the Herms, and Theramenes, the moderate who had served as a general under Alcibiades and had been the first to call for his return from exile following the Sicilian expedition. The Spartans left this junta to govern Athens

on their behalf. They would later become infamous as the Thirty Tyrants. Before long, Samos, the last Athenian ally to hold out, surrendered, which finally brought the Peloponnesian War to a close after twenty-seven years. Critias soon became intoxicated by his newfound power, and still bitter over his recent exile, he claimed his revenge. The oligarch's first step was to appoint their own magistrates. In a move that earned praise from most of the citizens, they began prosecuting the paid informers used by Cleon and other demagogues. Before long, however, the oligarchs also recruited three hundred lash-bearers to enforce their

decrees. The citizens, too afraid to complain, watched powerless as the Thirty took the opportunity to settle old scores, putting to death anyone who had testified against them during the democracy, commencing with the most vulnerable citizens. Next they asked Sparta to provide a garrison of soldiers, who acted as their bodyguards, and emboldened Critias and the other oligarchs to start arresting more prominent citizens, including not only their personal enemies, but those whose wealth or reputation they saw as a threat to their regime. When Theramenes saw his colleagues exploiting

their power to seek revenge, he tried to counsel moderation. What sense is there, he asked Critias, in putting to death those men who supported the democracy but never harmed the aristocrats? Both you and I, he said, did things in the past to curry favour with the people. That was how politics worked after all, under the democracy. Everyone at times had acted like a demagogue. Critias sighed.

You're being naive, my friend. If you think that just because there are thirty of us, we don't have to watch our backs as carefully as a tyrant does who rules alone. We have no choice but to rid ourselves of those most likely to oppose our rule. To prevent any attempts at resistance, Critias decreed the exiled Democrat leaders to be outlaws. Any man could take their lives with impunity. Alcibiades, though once his friend, had been the first to be killed. Next on the list was Thrasybulus, the Democrat general now exiled to Thebes who had fought alongside Alcibiades and Theramines. When news reached Thrasybulus of his friend Alcibiades' assassination and the worsening situation at Athens, he acted decisively.

Braving the winter cold, he led a squadron of seventy hand-picked men up the slopes of Mount Parnas, where they were able to take the Athenian fortress of Philae by surprise. The rebels now controlled one of the most secure strongholds in the region, atop a steep rock overlooking the road between Thebes and Athens. The Thurti responded by tightening their grip. More than 1500 people in all would be summoned to a public building in the Agora called the Stoa Poikali and put to death for alleged crimes against the regime. Theramone's urged restraint. The oligarchy will not survive, he warned, if we continue like this. We must share power with

more citizens, otherwise the people will mistake us for tyrants. He wanted the hoplite class at least to have the vote. Our actions appear ridiculous to me, because we are doing two inconsistent things,' he said, by organizing a government based on force and the rule of the strong, while keeping it so small as to be weaker than its subjects." This made Critias' lip curl. It brought back the pain of having similar contradictions pointed out by Socrates. Afraid that Theramnes might create an opposition faction, he ordered the three thousand hoplites most loyal to the oligarchy to parade underarms in the Agora as a show of strength. All other residents of Athens were disarmed, and their

weapons locked in the Parthenon temple on the Acropolis. Now the Thirty were free to do as they pleased. Critias passed a law allowing anyone not on his list of loyalists to be summarily executed. The oligarchs exploited this not only to silence opposition but also to enrich themselves by seizing the property of victims. The Thirty now marched against Thrasybilus with their private army of three thousand hoplites. Unable to take the fortress of Philae by storm, they prepared for a siege. The gods smiled on the rebels, however, when an unexpectedly heavy snowfall forced the Thirty to return to Athens. This gave Thrasybalus the time he needed to plan a full armed rebellion.

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Get customized coverage today, starting at $19 per month at zensurance.com, Canada's leading small business insurance provider. Be protected. Be Zen. Dialogue with Critias As the Thirty became more oppressive, many left Athens for nearby Piraeus, a former Democrat stronghold. Chirithon begged his friends to come with him, but Socrates remained in Athens despite the danger.

"'You can see what sort of man Critias has become,' said Chirithon. "'The same man he always was,' shrugged Socrates, albeit with more of those who appear willing to obey his orders. Do you remember how Critias responded to your debate with Gorgias all those years ago, under the democracy, when he was still a young man? asked Chirophon, rolling his eyes. Socrates, who never forgot such things, was able to relate the whole conversation from memory. was able to relate the whole conversation from memory. The words of a political orator, Socrates had said, are made to twist this way and that, just to avoid displeasing the people by contradicting their changing mood.

Philosophy never changes. Her statements may appear surprising and paradoxical, but they are consistent. She tells us that committing wrongdoing is a worse evil than suffering it at the hands of another. And I swear by the dog, Critias, that if you allow her assertion to go unrefuted, you will never be at peace with yourself. For my own part, I would rather be out of tune with a whole chorus and of the rest of humankind contradict me than be out of tune with a whole chorus, and of the rest of humankind contradict me, than be out of tune with a single individual, by contradicting myself." Socrates replied Critias, you sound like a demagogue yourself. Despite what you just

said about disregarding the chorus of humankind, your whole argument depended upon an appeal to popular opinion. Our friend Gorgias was too ashamed to admit that he doesn't teach justice. Alcibiades fell into the same trap when he agreed that doing injustice is more shameful than having it done to you. He was merely speaking of a popular convention in this regard, which tells us nothing. In nature, real men never become victims because they are strong. Hence, being the victim of injustice is a greater evil than committing injustice. When wronged and insulted, those who are weak, have conspired against the strong, who

are few, by making up moral conventions concerning what is just. For instance, the majority fabricated the idea that it is unjust and shameful for the strong to take a greater share. Throughout history, however, the strong have asserted their right to conquer the weak. They take what they like in accord with the law of nature, and against the laws and conventions established by their inferiors. This was, of course, how the Athenians had behaved toward Milos and other cities weaker than them. Critias continued, In order to indoctrinate everyone in these rules, the Athenian people

take the best and strongest men and from an early age tame them, just as men tame lion cubs reared among them. They enslave them by teaching them that men ought to be equal and other unnatural nonsense. Whenever a man is born who is sufficiently strong though, he shakes off these spells, breaks his chains and tramples on their conventions. From time to time a great man will dazzle the people by revealing himself to be their master rather than their slave. The law of nature, as Pindar says, rules over men and gods alike and has set it down once and for all that might is right. You are only blinded to the truth of this by your love of philosophy, a pleasant game

for children perhaps, but one sure to ruin you if you keep it up much longer. Indeed, no matter how naturally talented a youth may be, if he wastes his time in your company studying philosophy, he will never become a real man. He will never be respected by his inferiors, and will lack any influence in the courts and assembly. That is what is shameful, Socrates. I feel toward your students, as I do toward grown men who talk with a lisp like some little child. They deserve to be whipped for such unmanly behaviour." "'Now I like you, Socrates,' said Critias, looking down his nose. "'So let me give you

some advice. You have neglected yourself when it comes to rhetoric and oratory. Your noble soul appears to others like that of a foolish child because of the unsophisticated manner in which you speak. You cannot contribute a single word of value to the deliberations of a court or persuade a single citizen in the assembly of your cause. So do not take offence at my frankness. Are you not ashamed of the plight you find yourself in because of your philosophy? If someone were to have you arrested and dragged off to prison right now, you would be completely helpless.

You would stand in court with your mouth gaping open without the words to defend yourself. No matter how false and unjust the charges, if the prosecution uses rhetoric and they want you to die, the jury will condemn you to die." Socrates smiled. Critias, I thank you, he said, for I have come to believe that if I wish to test whether I am living well or badly, I require three qualities from a partner in conversation. Wisdom, goodwill and frankness. Gorgias and Alcibiades may be wise and well-intentioned, but as you observed, they did not speak freely enough. They were ashamed of contradicting social conventions, but ended up contradicting themselves. I doubt, by contrast, that you would ever be

inhibited by shame. So if I can convince you to agree with me, my friend, we shall know we have arrived at the truth. Let's start by clarifying how you define natural justice. Am I correct that you believe this consists in the stronger taking the property of the weaker by force, the better ruling over the worse, and nobles having more than the common people, that might is right?" Critias agreed. Socrates next asked if Critias was saying that better and stronger were the same. Critias explained that a larger city, attacking a smaller one, is both stronger and better, and it deserves to win.

Surely, said Socrates, just as a large city is stronger than a small one, the common people, who are many, are stronger than the nobles, who are few." Critias waited a moment, then nodded. "'Then,' said Socrates, "'the laws imposed by the stronger are the same as those imposed by the majority. The majority, according to you, believe that justice consists in equality, and that it is a more shameful thing to do what is unjust than to suffer injustice. Surely it follows that these beliefs are derived not only from convention, but also, as you would have it, from nature. You said earlier that convention and nature are opposed in

this regard, but now you seem, do you not, to be contradicting yourself. There is no end to this rubbish, scoffed Critias. Are you not ashamed, So not, to be contradicting yourself?" "'There is no end to this rubbish,' scoffed Critias. "'Are you not ashamed, Socrates, to be playing word games?' "'I told you that by stronger I meant better. Did you really think I meant that if you gathered together a heap of slaves and common rabble with muscle but no brains, that whatever they say should have the force of law." "'Let me help,' said Socrates.

"'Did you actually mean wiser and better rulers when you said stronger men?' "'Of course,' said Critias. "'So one wise man is superior to thousands of fools, and should rule them like a tyrant, and take the lion's share of everything they own." Exactly, said Critias. Natural justice consists in wiser and better men ruling over their inferiors. Suppose many of us gathered with a large amount of food, and someone present was a physician with expertise in the field of human nutrition. Would he be wise simply to claim the lion's share of the food and consume it all himself?

Or would wisdom consist in distributing to each person, including himself, the most appropriate amount of food for the benefit of each individual's health? Does wisdom consist in exercising rational moderation, or indulging in excess?" "'You're going on about food and drink and other such nonsense, but that's not what I meant,' complained Critias. "'We're talking about expertise,' he added, "'in running the affairs of the whole city.'" "'So what you intended to say is that the better men are wiser with regard to ruling cities?' asked Socrates.

Critias agreed. Well then, is there no need for self-mastery as long as one is master of others? asked Socrates. What do you mean? said Critias. Do your rulers rule themselves wisely? asked Socrates. Critias frowned irritably, his head cocked to one side. "'How can you be happy if you have to deny yourself pleasure?' he exclaimed.

"'Any man who wants to live like a man ought to go out and satisfy his appetites as much as he likes. The majority just lack the strength to do this. They may praise moderation, but it is not a virtue fit for free men. In all truth, Socrates, to those who wield absolute power such as political tyrants, what could be more disgraceful than moderation and justice? No real man would voluntarily subjugate himself to the values of slaves. Your idea of self-mastery is contrary to nature. It is a lie invented by the naturally slavish and weak who joined forces in a conspiracy against their masters, the strong, in an attempt to shame them into submission."

Many people share these opinions, said Socrates, but are too ashamed to state them in public. So again, I'm grateful to you, my friend, for your frankness. You're saying that the strong should indulge their passions and appetites as much as they like, are you not?" Of course, snorted Critias, as if what he was saying were common sense. Answer me this, said Socrates. Does a man who has an itch and the power to scratch it as often as he likes live a good life in that regard? How bizarre of you, Socrates," replied Critias, and how vulgar. But yes, let us say that even a man who scratches constantly would live a pleasant and happy life.

Critias would not accept that moderation was a virtue, because he wanted to insist that it was wrong for the strong to deny themselves anything they desired. He believed that pleasure is good. Socrates pointed out several ways, however, in which we normally distinguish what is good from what is pleasurable. For instance, the pleasure of drinking water is over once our thirst has been quenched, and we rid ourselves of the pain or displeasure of craving water. The good that we obtain from becoming wise, by contrast, continues indefinitely after

it has replaced the evil of folly." So what, exclaimed Critias. It follows, my friend, that pleasure and pain, though opposites, are bound together in a way that wisdom and folly are not, said Socrates, and therefore that good cannot be identical with pleasure, nor evil with pain. Critias wasn't convinced, so Socrates tried a different tack. Did you imply earlier that you do not consider fools to be good men?' he asked. "'Of course they are not,' said Critias.

"'Have you ever seen a foolish man enjoying pleasure, or a wise man suffering from pain?' asked Socrates. "'I suppose so,' said Critias. "'But so what?' "'Do wise men or fools experience greater pleasure?' asked Socrates. "'I don't know, hissed Critias. Are you therefore saying that there is no practical difference between good men and bad men in terms of their capacity for pleasure? asked Socrates.

Critias tentatively agreed. You said earlier, though, that pain is bad and pleasure is good. So surely, said Socrates, it follows that a man who is capable of feeling more pleasure is better than the man who is capable of feeling more pain. I've been listening patiently to you, Socrates, talking nonsense, as if you don't realize that every normal person, myself included, distinguishes between pleasures that are good for us and ones that are bad for us," said Critias. Are good pleasures the ones that benefit us and bad ones the ones that cause us harm? asked Socrates.

Of course! sniffed Critias. So we should endure certain pains, insofar as they lead to what is good for us, asked Socrates, and abstain from certain pleasures insofar as their consequences are bad for us. Critias agreed. Can any fool, asked Socrates, tell healthy pleasures from unhealthy ones, and good pains from bad ones, or does it require an expert?" "'It may sometimes require an expert,' admitted Critias hesitantly.

"'That's right,' said Socrates. "'A wise physician, for instance, could advise us that although some medicine tastes unpleasant it's good for our health, and that certain foods that taste pleasant are bad for our health, and that certain foods that taste pleasant are bad for our health." Critias agreed. Let us return to what I was talking to Gorgias and Alcibiades about, said Sarkaties. There are occupations such as that of confectioner, which pander to our appetites, without distinguishing good pleasures from bad ones. Arts such as medicine, by contrast,

study what is actually good for our health. These different occupations indicate different attitudes toward life. Critias sighed. So by the god of friendship, Critias, I beg you to take what we are discussing seriously, said Socrates, and not to think of me as joking, but to recognise that we are, in fact, discussing one of the most important questions imaginable. How a human being should live. Should one engage in what you and other politicians call manly activities, such as pandering to

the masses in the assembly," said Socrates. Or should he live as we have been behaving just now in this conversation, like philosophers who love wisdom? Socrates explained that he considered political oratory to influence popular opinion by playing on our desire for pleasure and fear of pain, rather than by appealing to what is actually good for us. "'I disagree,' grunted Critias, "'but I'm going to go along with you, Socrates, so that we can finally end this foolish discussion.'"

The Philosopher smiled broadly. "'Do you suppose,' he asked, "'that Orators always speak with what is best for their fellow citizens in mind? Or do they treat the assemblymen like children by trying to please them, regardless of whether their speeches make the people better or worse? Some politicians are as you describe, Sid Critias, but not all of them. That answer will suffice, said Socrates. will suffice," said Socrates. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

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