The Daily Stoic - Steve Scott on Winning in Life

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

Ryan speaks with Steve Scott about his book Hey, Tiger―You Need to Move Your Mark Back: 9 Simple Words that Changed the Game of Golf Forever, why having integrity is such a crucial part of being a good athlete and human being, the cautionary tale of Tiger Woods, and more.Steve Scott is an American former professional Golfer and the current PGA Head Golf Professional of The Outpost Club and Founder of the Silver Club Golfing Society. The defining moment of his career came during his competition against Tiger Woods in the 1996 Amateur Golf Championships. Scott found himself a surprising 5‐up after the first 18, but on the 35th hole Tiger squared the grueling match with an improbable 40‐foot birdie putt. With the result coming down to the last hole, the difference in the outcome actually came earlier, when Scott reminded Woods to move his mark back to its rightful place on the 34th hole. Had Scott not done the morally correct thing, Tiger would have been penalized and, in turn, not gone on to have his legendary career. Since retiring from playing golf, Steve has become a golf teacher, instructor, speaker, and broadcaster. His work can be found at his website stevescottpga.com, and on instagram @sscottpga.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music download the app today Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast where each weekday we bring you a Meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics a short Passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are,

and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. I'm going to start today's episode with a little bit of a story. This is a story I tell. Briefly, in stillness is the key. I've told it at length a little bit in some of our YouTube videos. But I want to take you back to 1996. It's the US amateur golf championships, Tiger Woods, It's the US amateur golf championships, Tiger Woods, Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club, Tiger has won his third straight US amateur title.

The first five rounds of play are relatively uneventful Woods is in the finals, and his opponent is a relatively unknown 19 year old Steve Scott. After the first 18 holes, it's a 13, it's a 36 round final. Scott is leading by five. The final 18 holes are a battle. Tiger cut Scots lead to one, back nine, and on a par 3-10th, Tiger cuts his lead to one. Scott pushes it to two, and then Tiger sinks a legendary 35-foot putt for an eagle to move within one.

It's on the 16th hole down to three holes to play. Tiger hits a wedge shot within six feet of the pin. He places a quarter to mark his ball before picking it up. And the marker's in Scott's putting line. So he asked Tiger to slide it over and he does and Scott makes his putt. And then forgetting he'd moved his marker, Tiger puts his ball down and is about to putt from the wrong spot, which if he had done, he'd automatically lose the hole and thus the tournament. But before Tiger can make this historic mistake, Scott intervened. He says, hey, hey, Tiger, did you move that back? Tiger pauses, returns his marker, makes the putt. He birdies the 17th hole, he forces a sudden death playoff, and on the second playoff hole,

Scott's putt slips out and Tiger wins, not just the tournament, but his place in history. It's more or less Steve Scott's one and only moment in the spotlight. He hoped to have a huge golf career on the PGA tour. It doesn't quite pan out. But in an interview commemorating the 20-year anniversary of that famous match, Scott says, I've gone on to have a great life.

I think I'm walking proof that you can win in life without winning. Well, Steve Scott is my guest today. He actually saw one of the videos that I mentioned this story in and someone told him about my books and he reached out. We were trying to meet in person, ended up doing the podcast remotely. And we had a great discussion. I wanted to talk to Scott because his sort of selfless choice,

his choice to play by the rules even though it cost him, it consists on doing the right thing to say, hey, Tiger, did you forget to move your marker back, even though he could have let his competitor make a fatal mistake, is to me an indication, a real life example of something that precipice one of the early Stoics who I talk about in lives of the Stoics tries to lay down as both a philosophical and athletic rule. He says, runners in a race ought to compete and strive to win as hard as they can. But by no means should they trip their competitors or give them a shove. So too in life,

it is not wrong to seek after the things useful in life, but to do so while depriving someone else is not just. I think that's beautifully said. I think you're really going to like this interview. I think you'll really like Steve Scott's new book, Hey Tiger, You Need to Move Your Mark Back. Nine simple words that changed the game of golf forever. It's got a quote on the cover from Phil Knight, who's basically saying, that was one of the most extraordinary things I saw in person. And he's like, all these years later,

it remains one of the most extraordinary moments in sports. Big blurb from somebody who's been at a lot of big moments in athletics. And you're really gonna like this interview. Big blurb from somebody who's been at a lot of big moments and athletics. You're really going to like this interview. I had a great time doing it. You can follow Scott on Instagram and Twitter at S Scott PGA. You can go to his website, SteveS ScottPGA.com. I'll link to his Instagram.

At S Scott PGA, check out his new book. It just came out. Hey, Tiger, you need to move your mark back. Nine simple words that changed the game of golf forever. And I think it's a story that will change you. I think you're really going to like this interview. And I'll leave it to you now to listen to my chat with Steve Scott. The Dell Technologies Black Friday in July event is on with limited quantity deals on top

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calling a Dell Technologies Advisor at 877 Ask Dell. That's 877 Ask Dell offered to business customers by Web bank who determines qualifications for in terms of credit. Life can get you down. I'm no stranger to that. When I find things are piling up, I'm struggling to deal with something. Obviously, I use my journal, obviously at Tournestosism, but I also turn to my therapist, which I've had for a long time and has helped me through a bunch of stuff. And because I'm so busy and I live out in the country, I do therapy remote, so I don't have to drive somewhere. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Toxbase makes it easy to find a therapist that you like. It's convenient, it's affordable. By doing everything online, Toxbase makes getting the help you want easy and affordable,

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Well, tell me, man, you said you'd think of that day every single day of your life. What does it mean to you and why do you come back to it so much? Well, I think it's number one. A lot of people remind me of it. It seems like when I meet people for the first time, or that's where they identify me with and identify me from, even though I've done a lot of other great things, at least I think in the game of golf, that is the one that really sticks out to them them because there was millions of people watching on television and there was 15,000 people live there in person. And it was just a historic moment in golf.

Tiger Woods is going through his third straight US amateur and lo and behold, I was the only guy in his way. Yeah, I imagine for you, it's like, it's a moment in your life, but then for people who meet you, it's your only moment in their life. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, that's an interesting way to look at it, but very accurate. Certainly, it was, you know, connecting with the game of golf, Tiger Woods is on the tip of everybody's tongue

no matter if he's playing one event a year or 20 events a year. And so that particular event being at the fact that it was the final amateur match that he ever played, too. That was kind of the, I mean, the next day he turns pro, signs a $40 million contract with Nike. And so that was very much of a line of demarcation for him and his career and the history of the game

and he moved right on and just kept on winning. I'm fond of this story that goes way back for the stillyx. It's called Hercules at the Crossroads. And basically, the story of the myth of Hercules is walking through the hills, and he comes to this sort of fork in the road. And there's a goddess on each end of the Crossroads. There's the goddess of virtue and the goddess of vice,

sort of the easy way and the hard way. Hercules chooses the hard way. He chooses the path of virtue, which is gonna involve suffering and sacrifice and struggle. Doing the right thing. And then, you know, the other path would certainly be easier. It may be more fun. Do you sort of look back at that as a crossroads moment in your life? Or was it an ordinary moment in your life? I think it was anything but an ordinary. That's a great, certainly a very applicable story. I mean, for me, the moment wasn't,

I don't know if it wasn't necessarily a crossroads. I mean, it was certainly a moment that I, you know, I, it's so fresh in my mind, even 26 years plus past the time, not because people are reminding me of it, but because I did, I guess, you know, doing the right thing in a moment where it would have been very advantageous for me not to do the right thing. But, you know, the good thing is that like for me and connected to the game of golf, that's what golf teaches most everybody. Not everybody learns the lesson, but it's a lesson that everybody is taught, and I certainly

learned it at a young age. And when I was in that moment, I mean, considering a crossroads, certainly after that moment, I probably put a lot of unneeded pressure on myself to live up to the expectation of, okay, here's this guy, you know, that, that, I mean, I went toe to toe with, and now I'm, I'm towards the top, if not the top, of the Amateur Golf rankings, and I was only going into my sophomore year of college. So I was still growing and evolving as a person at the time. So yeah, I probably look back at it as, you know, it probably led, honestly, I've had a putting affliction called the Yips, where it's basically, you know,

it's kind of like the pitcher Chuck Noble, I couldn't throw it to first base. And so, you know, I've kind of dealt with that a lot throughout my life. So I think putting unneeded pressure on myself from that moment was certainly something that led from that. But to that point, I didn't have a whole lot of downfalls in my golf career. I just happen to meet the guy who would happen to be the greatest or the second greatest player behind Jack Nicholas in our generation.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think, when I think of the story of the Crossroads, it's not like doing the wrong thing is going to, or doing the right thing is going to cost you everything. I don't think that's the lesson. But I do think it's the harder path, right? And it demands more of you. And did you, I wonder how much that choice also shaped, like Steve Scott's the guy that, gives his competitor a moment of grace, it potentially costs himself the match, maybe it changes or ever so slightly the trajectory of one's career.

Do you think about that when you're doing your taxes and you don't want to be also Steve Scott, the guy that goes down for tax fraud? Do you know what I mean? Does it set a standard for you as far as like, no, you do the right thing. You do what the rules say or you do what will let you sleep with yourself at night. Because that's simply what you do.

Like, does it help set an identity for you making that choice so publicly? Yeah, I think that, you know, yes, it's certainly my brand, right? I guess. And there are worse brands to be connected with. I think what really kind of spurred me on to not only write this book, Hey Tiger, you need to move your mark back. And really, you know, I don't know, I guess embrace this more or less, is that I see what's happened, whether it's the world of politics, whether it's the world of sports.

I was actually at the, if you remember back almost 20 years ago, Sammy Sosa got kicked out of the game for quarking his bat. Lance Armstrong gets all the blood doping and all the things that have really engulfed the world of cycling. I mean, Houston Astros banging on the garbage can. I mean, it could go on and on. And I think, given the time during the pandemic, that's when this book was written, it just really gave me time to reflect and really think about,

who am I versus what I see on television, what I see in the news, and all these people trying to get that upper hand of, is winning that important to sacrifice your being. And for me, I think as we get older, we definitely reflect more. And I was only 19 at the time of that match. And so I'm 45 now.

And looking back on that, there was an absolute, it wasn't even, I don't even think it was a choice for me. It was bred into my DNA. And so, because think about this, when you're under the most pressure that I was during that match, you revert back to what your training was, what your, what you were born,

what your DNA is all about, because you don't have time to think about anything, any conscious thought. Right. Right. It's just all reflex or reactive, instinctive actions that you do. It's all the training you've done on the putting green and on the driving range hitting the golf ball.

But it's then it's also all the training and the mental training you've done of, okay, this is what golf's about, this is just what you do. And for me, it wasn't even a second thought and it was like this lightning bolt came from the sky and it came out of my mouth and that was it. Yeah, I think it's interesting because as you said, golf is a sport in which you're supposed to be your own referee. And I think the great athletes, the great people, they are their own referee. They call fouls on themselves.

I tell this story in the book that I'm writing now about Frank Robinson, the baseball player. He hits this, what he thinks is going to be a home run. And it's up, up, up. It looks like it's going to clear. So he's sort of half jogging to first base. And it ends up bouncing off the green monster or something. It ends up, he has to settle for like a double. And he walks into the manager's office

after and he slams down like 400 bucks on the thing. The manager's like, what's this? And he says, I should have run that. He's like, I didn't run it. And that's on me. The manager wasn't going to say anything. The dude was basically untouchable. No one would question his motives.

It was a pretty understandable judgment call. But here he was sort of enforcing the rules on himself. And I feel like that's a thing we all admire, but it's hard to do. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is just in your, you know, it's how you were brought up. It's in your DNA. It's part of who you are as a person. I mean, there's certainly people out there

that don't take the high road and their moral compass doesn't point in the direction that the world would like it to point and the way it should point, honestly. We're all in, I don't know, I guess listening to you and listening to podcasts you've done and trying to surmise what I'm going to, I'd like to talk about. It's like we're all, we're not as significant in this world

as we all think we are. We're all small pieces in this whole huge world. We're only here for a very finite amount of time. And so when you think of the history of the world and and we've the humans have been for thousands of years. And so and so you know this little blip is just I wanted people to know okay okay, this is who Steve's got is, number one. And this is the way that this is how we act because we are just a small, teeny, tiny part of this whole huge world and ecosystem which we live. And if I can help spread the word of goodness, I guess, I guess this is what I was here for.

What's funny though, because the human mind is insidious and so is self-interest, right? So we could argue this both ways, right? You could go in significant little dots in this enormous thing, raw blips. It's random that we're here. None of us make a particularly big difference, our lives are short, and the big scheme of things, blah, blah, blah.

So you can make the argument, what does it matter? Do what benefits you, right? Do what's easiest, right? And I think a lot of people do that. And then the other argument, I think the more hopeful and inspiring one is all those same stipulating, almost all those same things are true. And you go, you might as well be good while you can.

You might as well do the right thing. You might as well be decent, right? And in any ways, that's how I think about it. But it does come down, I think, in a lot of ways to how one was raised or what one saw when they were growing up. What was it in your life that put you in a position that when you're 19 years old, the biggest moment, the most public moment of your life,

you make the hard right decision instead of the easy, wrong decision. Yeah, you know, it's a great question that I don't know why, you know, I sometimes wonder why why it was me in that moment and why like why somebody else wasn't in that moment. Obviously, I played well enough to get to that moment, but there are so many lucky things and so many things that happen to get me to that moment. I don't know. It's like maybe somebody in the universe said, look, Tiger is supposed to be this great

player that is going to transform the world of golf and the world of sports and the, you know, the racial divide in golf and sport. And, um, yeah, it's, I really wonder sometimes why I was in that moment. But, yeah, I don't know. Was there, was there a moral example in your own life that you were drawing on? Like was that sportsmanship that you had seen modeled? Was there someone you remember who was like Steve? Like the important thing in golf is you do X or where does the sort of sense of right

and wrong come in for you in that moment? I don't know. I think it was just something that's within me that I can't really explain. I can't even think back to an exact moment. Anyway, I'm sure my parents taught me things at a young age that just kind of seeped into my brain and I really didn't know or remember. And it's funny now that my son and daughter are 14 and 12 years old.

I see it a lot in my son. I see things are very black and white. There's no gray. And so if something isn't right, he's gonna make sure that, it's kinda like what I did. It's the right thing. It's just, I don't know, it's just what you do. And it's not necessarily, I can't really give you that pinpoint moment exact what it happened.

But don't you think he got that from you? I mean, I would think that he, like why does your teenage son have a black and white sense But don't you think he got that from you? I mean, I would think that he, like, why does your teenage son have a black and white sense of right and wrong? It's got to be from the fact that his father is one of the greatest examples in sports of doing that on the world stage.

You may be being a bit modest there. Yeah, I guess, and I guess, you know, maybe my dad is that way. Maybe his father was just what that way too. Yeah, some things just kind of, you know, they get passed down. But I guess for whatever way I learned it, or whoever, I'm really glad I did,

despite the fact that I didn't win that day, right? I mean, it's, you know, I've had plenty of time to reflect and look over. It's like, okay, if I don't say something, I mean, I could have forgotten, right? Like in golf, it's kind of commonplace, though, that you remind your opponent, hey, you know, like, journey, you help them find their golf ball in the trees and the rough. You do these things for your opponent and golf. And it's just, I guess that's why I just go back, I mean, you know, why I put golf on such a high pedestal because it just, it teaches you so many great lessons. Even if you don't play to the level that I have played too or continue to aspire to play too, it's just what that game teaches you.

Your wife was your caddy that day, right? Your future wife? Yeah, my girlfriend at the time, we got married three years later. Do you think that influence was there also? I'm fascinated, there's this famous Pentagon whistleblower named Ernie Fitzgerald, who he was the one that pointed out like the $600 toilet seats on Air Force planes and stuff. And anyways, when he went to testify, somebody asked him,

like how did you have the courage or something? And he said, my wife told me she would divorce me if I went up there and lied. And so I think sometimes, right, it's having in these moments, your moment was more snap, but sometimes who we decide to be with, who we surround ourselves with, they can sort of steal us in those moments of

where our conscience is tested because we don't want to let that person down. Yeah, there's no question. I mean, I think to, you know, to this day, I mean, she, you know, she certainly always keeps me honest and she's, she's the bedrock of our family. In that moment though, it was kind of interesting because I'd hit a bunker shot out onto the green and she was raking the bunker. And she didn't actually even realize I had asked him to move the ball mark over. She was like, what are you doing? No, she's got a great moral compass too. And I think that's why we have jelleded for so so well for almost 24 years now. But

yeah, no, it's, you know, there wasn't a specific thing in that moment with her. But but yeah, I mean, maybe it was just a subconscious thing as well, but that it just, you know, it just kind of came out. I in a blink of an eye, it was almost like I saw 25 years down the road. It's like, okay, you have to say something. And if you don't say something, then you're going to be remembered as this guy who either forgot. I couldn't have forgotten or didn't say anything. And now, I don't know. I guess I'm too honest. No, no, I think you're the right amount of honest. What's fascinating, the next big moment after your moment,

is that you end up not winning the thing. It comes down to all these extra holes. And then it goes unacknowledged by the person that benefits so much from it, from Tiger. And I was thinking of, there's an amazing line in this right Thompson profile of Tiger Woods, where he's quoting some family friend of the woods. And he says, Daddy, Daddy, no, mere, mere on the wall, we become like daddy after all, right? And I think about it in trying to have some empathy

or understanding for who tiger woods is, I think about the example that he saw growing up, right? You, you, you learned a certain set of lessons about golf and he learned a certain set of lessons about golf some of which were about ruthless competitiveness you know the killer instinct that your identity is tied up in whether you're a winner or a loser you know he he learned a different set of things from golf that have been really beneficial in some ways, but have also probably been painful and difficult to carry in other ways. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. I mean, when you're young, you definitely learn from who you surround yourself with, being the tiger was an only child he didn't have another sibling to kind of latch on to and so yes his guiding lights in the world from a young age were certainly his father and his mother and and they you know they taught him to yes be this cold blooded assassin on

the golf course and and he certainly was and I think it's a very cautionary tale, though, of Tiger Woods. Obviously, he will go down as one of the greatest, if not the greatest golfer that ever lived. But I think it's in a way that's where, outside of his, he's done some good things for his foundation. But I think that's, there's a lot of the other part

of the story that just kind of stops with Tiger. Yeah. Where he, yes, he definitely followed the lines of his father in a lot of ways and documented. And, but, you know, he's, and I'm sure now, he seems more like a person now in his interviews than he ever was. I mean, he was this robotic sort of, you know, golfer.

And, you know, by a lot of accounts from people that knew him at a younger age. You know, he was, you know, some people called him Erkel. Because he was a little goofy. He was, you know, he didn't quite have the social skills to, but I think he's learned those things over time. But I go back to the cautionary tale, though, that is Tiger and how his father raised him. And there's a lot of people that would love to have a Tiger Woods come up. But let's face it, there's only one in a generation and a lifetime for starters. But number two, there's only one in a generation and a lifetime for starters.

But number two, there's such an imbalance. When you're so great at something, the imbalance in your life is also so great. I'm sure it's that way for all the superstars, like Michael Jordan, like anybody who was at the top of their sport or profession, if you're gonna be that great, you're gonna have to not be so great at other things

and other things are gonna have to sacrifice because of that. It's funny, I talk to lots of people and a good chunk of those people haven't been readers for a long time. They've just gotten back into it. And I always love hearing that and they tell me how they fall in love with reading. They're reading more than ever. And I go, let me guess you listen audio books, don't you? And it's true. And almost invariably they listen to them on Audible.

And that's because Audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre from bestsellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs. And of course, ancient philosophy, all my books are available on audio read by me for the most part. Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app. You'll always find the best of what you love, or something new to discover, and as an audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. You'll discover thousands of titles from popular favorites, exclusive new series,

exciting new voices in audio. You can check out Stillness is the Key, the the daily dad I just recorded so that's up on audible now coming up on the 10 year anniversary of the obstacle is the way audiobooks so all those are available and new members can try audible for free for 30 days visit audible dot com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500 500 that's audible.com slash Daily Stoke, or text Daily Stoke to 500-500. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest

and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident, not-so-expert-experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong.

What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondy app. Well, it's like, as a parent, what would you like? Would you like your child to be extraordinarily successful and rich and famous?

Or would you like them to be decent and good, you know, to be happy, you know? And I'm not sure these things are necessarily mutually exclusive, but it does seem that some parents value one a lot more than the other. And yeah, you're right, that balance is really hard. And being raised fundamentally unbalanced or letting yourself get fundamentally unbalanced

as you get older and more successful, you know, that might be rewarded socially in some ways, but it doesn't actually seem like a great way to be or to live. No, I think, I mean, it just, it goes back to how important parenting is. Every day that goes by as my kids get older and older, you realize, you look around, you see the kids

who are starting to grow up to be something and have a good track for high school, college, et cetera, and then others who haven't. And it all goes back to parenting. Parenting is, you know Parenting is the most important job in the world, really, because we're just continuing to grow either good or bad or in the middle somewhere. And we have to learn from somewhere

and our first teacher certainly are parents. There's a Greek expression that character is fate, right? So the character that one develops or is raised with sort of determines what we're gonna do in these big situations. And I think you're a good example of that. At 19 years old, you know, with potentially millions of dollars on the line pushing you to go

one way. You ended up going the other way. You did the right thing, even though it wasn't the most self-interested thing. And yet I think it's important that we don't see character as fixed in that like a person can't change and evolve and grow. They can't learn lessons. Tiger being an example of that in some ways. I'm thinking of his, of his LIV stance, he, you know, turns down roughly a billion dollars,

which is not a small amount of money, even for him, to make a decision that I think is ultimately better for the game of golf, right? And different people are gonna have different views, but I did find I'm not sure if once his character is fake and they believe that character is fixed I'm not sure five or ten years ago one would have predicted that he would be taking that stand now. Yeah that that's, that's, it's an interesting take, right? I mean, you know, thinking about, you know, character, you know, not being fixed, right?

I think that's, again, just a big impetus of, of why I wrote this book and why I really want to get this story out to the world. And, and it's been a lot of fun the last year and a half or so since it's come out. And I hope it just continues to blossom. And I really I appreciate you having me on here to help spread this word because I certainly believe that when people, if they can surround themselves with the goodness in life and, you know, that they could, they could change the way that they see life and that they feel about it and their actions

and maybe I had to give this book to Patrick Reed or... I was just gonna say that. I was just gonna say that. Well, single him out, he'll probably soon, you know, but anyway, but anyway. But no, it's a, yes, you can relearn how to be. And if you have gone down the wrong track in life,

I think there's always time. As long as you're looking down at the grass and not looking up at it, you always have time to reevaluate and change your course of being. Well, because if you can't, what are we doing? You know what I mean? Like if you can't change, if you can't grow,

if you can't get better, I mean, that, even if you can't, let's, I think it's better that we act as if you can't get better, I mean, even if you can't, I think it's better that we act as if you can, right? Like, let's have some hope here that we can strive and improve and change. And I do think there's, there's certainly evidence of the contrary, right? People go into recovery, people get rehabilitated, right?

People go to jail, people learn, right? They learn from the divorce, they learn from the embarrassment, they learn from the backlash, and they change and they grow, not always, probably not even a majority of the time, but I don't like the idea that, yeah, if at 19, because I think about where I was at 19, I think of some of the ethical decisions I made at 19, I know

if I was doing it over again, I would make better decisions because I made the wrong decision then. Yeah, that's interesting, right? Yeah, I think of this integrity as, I don't know, yeah, it's not a short-term sort of thought or way of being. It's like investing in the stock market for the long haul. It's like pounds. Right. It's more of a long-term play for sure. It's like, you know, instead of It's more of a long-term play for sure. It's like, instead of trying to, you know, the get rich quick schemes like this FTX guy

for a Samuel Bank been freed, right? You think of, guy, it's like, okay, that's not integrity. Integrity is the opposite of that. And sometimes, you know, showing integrity, you know, I go back to, you know, a lot of my thoughts and a lot of my talks are about winning without necessarily winning, right? And I didn't win that day, but I still

won. And, but integrity, I guess, and maybe that winning didn't quite show itself in the short term because I didn't win. And I, there's things I didn't get to do because I didn't win. But at the same time, you know, you stay true to yourself. And in the long term, you know, I've been very, very fortunate to be very successful now as a PGA professional and, you know, working on PGA to rely the SPN. You know, the author, I never thought I'd be an author. I've got a great golfing society, the silver club golfing society, doing stuff for golf a week. I'm doing so many things that I'm involved with around the game. And if my brand started back then as, okay, well, here's this guy,

you try to cheat the system. You know, things just, they don't work out the same as when, you know, in the long term, I think, you know, if you they don't work out the same as when you know in the long term I think you know if you do the right thing Well, there's a very stoic idea right that there's things that are up to us and things that are not up to us right Epic teetus as this great line he says if you only enter contests where winning is up to you You will always win right does that mean you you run away from competition? I don't think that's what he's saying. I think what, right? Does that mean you run away from competition? I don't think that's what he's saying. I think what he's saying is that if you decide that winning is whether

you get the trophy at the end, right, then sometimes you'll win and sometimes you'll lose, right? Sometimes, like in your case, you go up against the greatest golfer, probably to ever live. And if he's having a good day, he's almost certainly going to beat you, right? But if winning is, I did my best, I had fun, right? I met my wife or got closer to my future wife out of it. I did what I thought was right. All of those things, that's winning, even if you're not winning, the external thing, right? And so I think the Stoics would take

the trophy, you know, the number one spot, you know, being famous, making more money. They would have classified that as what they call a preferred indifferent, meaning if you have a choice, obviously you would take it, right? Like it's better to have than not have. But if it comes at the expense of the other stuff, you would pass it up, right? And I think if we think about, like when I think about the books that I write, I try to be successful at them before they come out, right? Did I do a good job? Did I try hard? Did I grow? Did I learn? Did I leave anything on the table?

You know, if I have good answers to those questions, then whether it sells one copy or a million copies, you know, I'm relatively indifferent to that fact. Because I already got most of the success and most of the reward out of the part of it that was up to me. Yeah, I think it's important to be able to, I mean, there's plenty of people

that can't look at themselves in the mirror. They can't, without doubt of, you know, I didn't do the right thing, you know, there's, I mean, think about all these people who call your phone on a daily basis, trying to, you know, there's a lot of scam artists in the world. I mean, the people, this is what they live for.

And it's, how can they look at themselves in the mirror? I just, I don't get it personally, but there's plenty of those people out there that they're trying, they're trying to, you know, their long-term play in life is deceit. And at some point it catches up to you. At some point, you're going to have nightmares for months on end and um maybe there's some people that have no conscience and but for me I have a conscience and uh and i'm glad that I do. I'm glad that I have a a moral compass to guide me in decisions that I make and and um it's uh I wouldn't see it any differently. Yeah, although I sort of,

this idea that it catches up to you is an interesting thing because I think we wanna believe in karma, right? That like if you're a bad person, bad things will happen to you sure enough, right? And there's a book that I read when I was starting out, my first job was in Hollywood and one of my mentors told me to read this book, it's called What Makes Sammy Run.

And it's about this like sort of ambitious young kid who wants to make it in Hollywood. And there's this sort of narrator observing in the whole time, they have sort of different ethics, different compasses, different ways of thinking about it. And Sammy, the main character, ends up becoming like the most powerful man in Hollywood. He gets everything he ever wanted.

And the sort of the end of the book ends with, the narrator sort of coming to Sammy's mansion, and he talks about, he's like, he says, I hoped that Sammy would one day get what he deserved, that like he said, karma or fate would rise up and catch him like a cancer, that all his bad deeds would catch up to him and you know justice would be served. And then he's he sort of says that's that's too simple that that isn't how it goes and he says catching a glimpse at him he realizes that actually the punishment is being the person right that this guy has to go through the world every day, paranoid.

He has to live in a world where people cheat and hurt each other or miss, you know, where it's never enough, right? And I guess he realizes that it's not like, oh, you're gonna get this, even in your case, that, you know, Tiger Woods' world is turned upside down as this sort of public humiliation and this thing. It's not even usually like that.

It's more subtle. It's like, no, you have to be that person. And it's not fun to be that person, not the way that you think it is fun to be that person. Yeah. I mean, him specifically, I know that you know, there's there's Things that have been documented where friends of his from in the past have said that you know He would be more comfortable snorkeling, you know, and the under the under the water in the ocean than he would be in In a big group of people

You know to to you know to have Yes to to have that on you is, yes, it's definitely he'd like to be kind of a normal person. And there's things that documented where he's got issues sleeping. He doesn't sleep much. And you wonder where all that comes from. And anyway, there's lots of people like that. I'm not just singling him out. But what do you think about? You think about Patrick Reed. Like, Patrick Reed isn't driven out of the game of golf for what he's done. In fact, he's rewarded millions and millions

and millions of dollars for it. But I think back, I was, I watched some interview where someone asked him and he's like, I'm not a cheater, it's only cheating if you break a rule to gain an advantage on purpose. And I remember thinking that seems like the kind of hair splitting that would not be fun to go through the world having to do all the time. I don't even just mean defending yourself on this specific allegation. I mean having to live in a way where that's the kind

of distinction you make between things where you're the kind of person that flicks a golf tee at someone like Roy McElroy and somehow feels you're the victim of that confrontation. Like, I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know if there's some day where, you know, he gets where it's what's coming to him. I think the argument is more that it's what's coming to him is waking up as Patrick read every day. Rich or not? That's pretty deep right there. I think you're spot on.

I think that there's only so much. We're all human, right? There's only so much that each of us can take before we break down inside. You know, for him, in a way, he might be one of those rare cases that he thrives on all of that. And, but I would say, and I would say, it's probably things are very difficult for him. He's kind of putting out in the world

what he's getting back because he hasn't been this great stand-up guy, at least how it's been documented. But you think about what integrity is and doing the right thing where nobody's watching or nobody's watching, you know, you think of I think of that movie oceans 11 where they're walking through the the hotel and and you know that they You know, they're somebody did something and and you know It's you have to walk around like you know like somebody's always watching somebody is always watching and everything you do, and you certainly have to, especially in this day and age,

because everybody, somebody will video and put it on social media and now your life is out there. So you have to be certainly very careful of what you put out there, but especially now, because I mean, the world does watch what you put out there, but especially now, because the world does watch what you do, and it can work and spread as quick as social media can spread it. Yeah, I think about that. I think about that. Like every once in a while, I'll just be out in public doing some normal thing, and I'll start to get frustrated or annoyed or, you know, sort of whatever, like a normal person.

And then three seconds later, like someone will recognize me. And I'll think, well, I'm really glad that I kept it together there because like, I wasn't alone in a crowd the way that I thought I was, right? And obviously, anyone with any sort of public personality or profile sort of realizes what you're saying. Like, oh, I don't have the luxury of behaving as maybe ordinary people do because someone's watching. But the reality is, yeah, everyone is always watching,

you, whoever you are, right? Not just social media, but there's a, there's a Adam Smith who wrote, Wealth of Nations was a moral philosopher more than he was an economist. And he had this idea of like, imagine there's an impartial spectator, he said, on your shoulder at each time, at any moment.

And you have to justify what you're about to do You know what what would that impartial spectator or impartial observer think about what you're gonna do And in your case, you know that moment you're like they know that you know that tiger forgot to mark his ball Right and of course they would you know, the impartial objective ordinary person would go, you have to tell him, right? You have to tell. And once you know that someone else knows, it makes it clearer and easier to do the right thing. It's when we can get in our own head a batter, we come up with excuses, or we go, oh, no one saw, I'm going to go ahead and do it, right? And so this exercise of like actually I'm being observed, whether it's by the law, whether

it's by a fan, or whether it's by your aunt, your long dead ancestors, or whether it's by Jesus or whatever religious figure you believe in, that that can be a device that can hold you accountable and keep you honest in, that that can be a device that can hold you accountable and keep you honest in a really effective way. That's a great device for sure. Yeah, I guess, yeah, you have, we've always seen the angel on one shoulder and the devil and the other shoulder, right? Yeah, however you want to look at it, you're totally right.

And for you to put it that way, I think that's a great way to go about it and understand where your moral compass should be, because I think we all have it in us to do that, but some people just tend to look the other way sometimes. Well, walk us through the rest of the story, because it could be easy to overstate this, right? You don't end up under a bridge somewhere. You don't end up selling insurance or something. You still effectively professionally play and are involved in the game that you love.

You marry your caddy, you live happily ever after in many ways. Right? Like it, it's, it, it's not that doing the right thing costs you everything. Yeah. On the contrary. Totally. Right. It's, yeah, it goes back to the winning without winning sort of thing. Right? It's, yeah, been very happily married for almost 24 years now, two great kids. You know, I still compete in the game, although I'm getting closer to the senior tour than I am the regular tour, or I played in three PGA tour events in the last four years in the North and the Carolinas where I live. And so that's been pretty neat to still be able to kind of dip my toe back into that world.

Being an author is something that I never thought I would be. And now here I am, spreading the great word about integrity and honoring the game, honoring your opponents, honoring yourself. And the fact that yes, you can, you know, great things can happen. Still involved with the game, became a PGA professional back in 2007, was a head pro, had a couple different clubs up in the Northeast. And yeah, and now I just, I couldn't imagine being in anything different. Had I blown that match maybe in some way or, you know, maybe I would

maybe I would be selling insurance somewhere or something, but you know, being involved with the game of golf for me personally has been so unbelievably rewarding because the game has, it's, you know, you think of golf as it's the most social sport that I can think of. Because you have, I mean, I've gotten to play golf in my life with not only Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods, I've got to play with some of the greats of other sports like shoot, I played with Larry Bird, I played with Hall of Fame catcher now passed at Gary Carter.

I got to meet Emmett Smith. I've caddyed for, I did some cadding about 20 years ago. I caddyed for Gary Player. I caddyed for Rush Limbaugh. I caddyed for Jack Welch who's the CEO of GE. I mean, I've gotten to be around some of the most powerful people in the world outside of the sport of golf because of golf because I could hit a little white ball and but yeah so certainly couldn't imagine

doing anything else or being involved in anything else. Is this thing all? Check one, two, one, two. Hey y'all, I'm Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Virgo. I'm just the name of you. Now I've held so many occupations over the years that my fans lovingly nicknamed me Kiki Kiki Pabag Palmer.

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Follow Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, whatever you get your podcast. Hey, prime members, you can listen early and app-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Well golf is probably a better metaphor for life than other sports in the sense that, you know, if you're an NFL linebacker, there's like, you know, the average duration of your career is like two years. Or if you're an actress, like, if this person gets this role, then you're done, right?

Like there's this sort of winner take all this to a lot of the other sports and professions. Whereas golf, like there's, there's these different levels that you can do it at and different ways you can be involved. And then also there's a longevity to it that, you know, your other sports don't have. And I think, you know, there's this distinction they make between finite games and infinite games. And finite games, it's like, it's you and Tiger Woods, if he wins, he gets everything and you never get to play again. And so you're incentivized to stab him in the back, right? In a way that, by you understanding that,

hey, golf isn't just who I am in this moment, but who I am in this moment determines who I'm gonna be in all the other games that I get to play in the rest of my life, whether it's being a pro somewhere being involved in the two. Like Lance Armstrong, who I know, and involved in the two, like Lance Armstrong, who I know and I actually like and have become friends with. And I think he's an example of someone who's changing and evolving because of what he went

through. Sure. But I'm sure Lance would love to be on TV, you know, doing the tour, but that's probably not going to happen, right? He's because of how he played the singular win or lose of the sport. You know, he lost by winning in the way that he won. He lost, you know, the relationships and the ability to continue to play in cycling, the way that I think he wants to, and maybe some would even say deserves to,

he just doesn't, that's off the table. Yeah, I think that's a great opposite to my story, right? I think you're right. I certainly didn't have the success on the course for my longevity that I wanted, but because of that match, the following spring and April, I got to play in the Masters. I've got to play in the greatest golf event

in the history of the world, that everybody would love to play in. So you're right, it's not this singular, you lose and your world is over. So that loss and the way that the loss happened, it afforded me to do a lot of great things and be a part of a lot of great other events. And you're right, the longevity of that,

you know, it's something that's brought up to every interview that I've ever been in. You know, when I'm going for head pro jobs, I mean, that is just something that will always stick with me. And I'm certainly proud that that is the thing that will stick with me as long as I don't screw it up from here. Well, and then to me, the other lesson in your story is like, what does one actually need to be happy and successful in life?

Right? And this goes to the idea of winning without winning, is like, if you have an insatiable appetite or lust, right, you have to have the most women, you have to have the most money, you have to have the most fame, you have to have the most success, you know, you have to be the most money. You have to have the most fame. You have to have the most success. You have to be the most dominant. If your success is determined by these insatiable or enormous or excessive things, it doesn't matter really how much you have.

There's always going to be this sort of sense of impoverishment. Sennaka has this great line. He says, you know, poverty isn't having too little. It's wanting more. And I don't think he's not being flip about what it actually means to struggle and have nothing. He's just saying, you can be very, very wealthy and still be poor if you feel like you need more and more.

And I think what's interesting about your story is like, who actually comes away happier, more content, you or Tiger, when I read about the sort of happy ending of you and your wife and the contributions you've made to the game and who you are and just even just talking to you now, it's like, you won because what you, how you defined winning, what you needed to be happy and to feel good about yourself less than other people's that, you know, it was within reach much, much earlier and much, much more in your control than other people's. Yeah, I think that's right.

I mean, you know, how much do we really need in life? I've got a great roof over my head. I can drive a nice car. I've got, you know got great family and friends. It makes me shake my head. I think at the people who have gone to this live tour and they know where the funds are coming from. And because most of these people,

they already had tens of millions, if not more. And so it's like, okay, you're right. It's like they needed all these things to be all this money, more money to, I mean, I don't know. It's like, what did they need for it? Did they not understand where it comes from and what, I don't know, we could go down a rabbit hole there. But you're right, you're right.

It's like, you know, how everybody has their different thresholds. And, you know, it's not my threshold is low of what I, you know, I, I, I wanted great things and, you know, great things have come to me. But, you know, it's not, you know, I don't need $100 million to be happy. I guess. Let's put it that way. No, and I'm not trying to burn your relationships with everyone in your game, but it's like,

if you're burning $40 million a year because you're a degenerate gambler, then you have to take $200 million of Saudi oil money to keep that afloat. And if you're a person who just has to pay to put your kids in school and pay for your ordinary marriage, you're able to think about these things differently. And I don't mean to judge everyone that made that decision. And I don't mean to totally denigrate the Saudis either. It's both a really complex issue and not that complex issue.

But I thought Rory's comment, which he actually read one of the daily stoic emails who was telling me about it, it's like, he said, you know, if you don't take the money, they can't tell you what to do. If you value sort of freedom and your reputation and being part of a system in a game and being a positive contributor to something,

you know, it's a pretty easy choice. Unless, right? Unless you live a life and prioritize money in such a way that it's not a choice because you have to go, like, you have to go where they pay you the most because you need the money. Yeah, I think what it did, it definitely exposed certain people and their beliefs and, you know, that's fine. But yes, you're right.

It's a big question of, yeah, what everybody needs different things. And I guess, you know, people who did, they took it and they ran. Yeah, yeah. And I interviewed Molly Bloom on the podcast recently and we were talking about, you know, she has this decision. She's obviously in a sort of a corrupt, weird world in the underground

world of poker. But there comes this choice where basically like she turns down $5 million. She could have gotten $5 million of her own money back if she sort of named names or particip, if she was willing to do things that she wasn't willing to do. Right? And what we were talking about is like, okay, so obviously, being able to turn down $5 million is something that only people who are rich can do. Right?

And yeah, she didn't have any money, right? What she turned, like, we were talking about how making that choice, even though it financially impoverishes her in one way, it also enriches her in the other way, because she's now the kind of person whose character and good name and ethics are worth more than $5 million. Yeah, character is, it leads to reputation, right?

And your character. Yeah, at the end of the day, I mean, that's what, you know, when, I mean, I think about the story and I think about integrity and I think about, you know, when I'm sitting on the rocker and in the nursing home, you know, what really, what's going to live with you? What really matters? It's like how much money did you die with? Or what did you do and contribute to others and to society?

And those things, they really, they start to really come to the forefront as you get older and older and you see, okay, well, like you've got to, you know, you want to make a point in life to lift up others and, yeah, that's, it's definitely something that I think of a lot. Well, and as we wrap up, because I think that was beautifully said,

I think the other part of it is, like, I wonder, like all of this was, hey, John Z, all of this was cut off from you, right? You didn't know what the future whole held. You didn't know how it would end up, right? You didn't know what it would cost you, what you would get out of it. That was my youngest.

The future was obscured to you, right? So what was really facing you was this sort of small immediate choice, right? Like, I wonder if, you know, if the crossroads had been clear, like if you said, if you were able to, you had this crystal ball and I could say like, hey, if you look the other way on this, you know, you

become Tiger Woods. If you don't, you become the Steve's God today. You know, maybe it changes how you maybe it changes how you make the decisions, which strikes me as a, as a stoic idea of like the stoic say like stick with first impressions, right? So, so they're just like, what's the right thing here? Like just do that, right? Don't do too much speculation or extrapolation. Just stick with what is in front of you in this moment and trust that not just that it will work out, but that you're the kind of person that will figure it out whatever it is. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's not like you had two months to weigh this decision and weigh it all the pros and cons. It was an instant. It was an instant instinct and that I think is an important lesson to people. What should I do in this situation? Trust yourself there. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was an amateur golf competition

so there wasn't any money on the other end. Sure. So I think that's clear to distinguish too. But, but yes, I mean, it was, it's kind of just what you do in, in this game and, and how you should go in life. You know, I guess it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's such a great important lesson to pass along. It's in the inscription of my book. I thought about my great, great, great, great grandkids. I'm long gone. What did my family do? What did my great-grandfather do?

What is important family do? What did my great grandfather do? Or what did, what is important in life? And that was a big reason why I wanted to make sure this story, it never dies because it's not just about golf, it's about life. Well, there's different things to give your kids, right? So you're not giving them a bunch of old dusty trophies, let's say, although I'm sure you have plenty of those, right?

You weren't, you're not able to give them that amateur cup, let's say, right? Or potentially, some of the things that Tiger ended up getting, let's say you chose not to get those by the choice you made, which you didn't, but let's say you chose not to get those by the choice you made. But let's say you had, right? It's not like you were giving them nothing instead.

What you're giving them is a name and a story and an example and a tradition, which in the end is not just more valuable, but it lasts longer. It's more enduring and powerful, like that tradition, that sense of I come from people that do things like that. Yeah, that's the greater legacy. Yeah, I mean, that's a great way to put it. You're right, it's the example that, yeah, you can't put a price tag on that stuff

and you can't, you know, it's a, yeah, you think about, I mean, I didn't know, I guess I didn't know any different at the time and I'm glad that I didn't, I'm glad that, it was something that was born into me and that passed along to my kids and hopefully as far down the genial line as possible. So yeah, it's really cool. And I just appreciate you having

me on and help spreading this word because I love spreading the word and it's hugely important. Well, I'm so glad we met and the stories very inspiring to me. And for people listening, Sasha, actually the only reason I'm not hanging holding up the book, which I really liked is that it's at my office. And I wasn't able to drive there today because of these road warnings. But it's it's a great book and the stories amazing. And thank you so much for sharing it and for for passing it along not just to your kids but I think you know we're all

heirs to that tradition in that sense right there's a great line from Santa Cuvid I like he says you know we can't choose our parents but we can choose whose children we want to be right we can choose what tradition we want to follow in the footsteps of. It doesn't, it's not your example, isn't just, you're not a role model just to the people who know you, right or who are related to you. We get to choose that, and I think that's one of the gifts of what you did and why I'm so glad you share this story.

Awesome. I appreciate it, Ryan. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. next episode. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and add free on Amazon Music,

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