The Daily Stoic - Stop Taking Yourself So Seriously | Chad Goes Deep

Episode Date: August 30, 2025

What can a comedian teach you about ego, shame, and philosophy? In today’s episode, Ryan sits down with Chad from Going Deep with Chad and JT to talk about the hilarious way they met, why playing a character without shame is liberating, what stand-up teaches us about ego, self-consciousness as a performer, and much more. Listen to Ryan’s episodes on the podcast Going Deep With Chad and JT:Listen to Ep.99 Listen to Ep.206See Chad and JT live in a city near you! Find tour dates on their website: https://www.chadandjt.com/Follow Chad on Instagram @ ChadGoesDeep, on TikTok @ChadAndJT, and on YouTube @ChadAndJTGoDeepSubscribe to Going Deep with Chad and JT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp6COGFcWCnEx9JbPIoYJLwSubscribe to Academy of Chad on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@academyofchadWatch Chad and JT Go Deep on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81087423👉 Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing to The Daily Stoic Premium - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content coming soon: dailystoic.com/premium📖 Preorder the final book in Ryan Holiday's The Stoic Virtues Series: "Wisdom Takes Work": https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Look, ads are annoying. They are to be avoided, if at all possible. I understand as a content creator why they need to exist. That's why I don't begrudge them when they appear on the shows that I listen to. But again, as a person who has to pay a podcast producer and has to pay for equipment and for the studio and the building that the studio is in, it's a lot to keep something like The Daily Stoic going. So if you want to support a show, but not listen to ads. Well, we have partnered with Supercast to bring you a ad-free version of Daily Stoic.

We're calling it Daily Stoic Premium. And with Premium, you can listen to every episode of the Daily Stoic podcast, completely ad-free. No interruptions, just the ideas, just the messages, just the conversations you came here for. And you can also get early access to episodes before they're available to the public. And we're going to have a bunch of exclusive

bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you want to remove distractions, go deeper into Stoicism and support the work we do here. Well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium, and we are offering a limited time discount of 20% off your first year. Just go to dailystoic.com slash premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show descriptions to make those ads go away. welcome to the weekend edition of the daily stoic each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient stoics something to help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage justice temperance and wisdom and then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into those same topics we interview

stoic philosophers we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another Saturday episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast. I want to take you back to 2019.

I just spent a week in New York, putting out stillness is the key. I did a book event, did a bunch of media, and then I was flying to Los Angeles for to basically do that all again. My youngest son had just been born also, so like, I think I've been gone for a week, so my wife was meeting me there. It was crazy, not getting a lot of sleep, just a lot going on. But I was feeling good about the book. I remember I was staying at the Los Angeles Athletic Club in that morning.

I found out that Stillness is the Key debuted at number one. That was pretty cool. And then I went for swim. And then this is my memory of it. I could have the dates wrong, but I am almost positive that I don't. And then I had a podcast to record. And they were coming to meet me at my hotel room, which was at the Los Angeles Athletic Club. They were going to record it there.

So these two guys come in and they set up their stuff. and then I get in my chair and we start to go, and they are just two of the biggest bros you have ever heard in your life, your biggest California bros. And I just remember going, what is this? Is this real? Am I being pranked? Is this a test of my stoicism? Should I be really polite? Should I get up and leave? Is this like a Borat situation that's like testing my good humor? Am I supposed to play along? I just could not. wrap my head around what this was. It was hilarious. They were very nice. And then that was the end of it. And then later, later, maybe they broke character or later somebody told me, like,

no, this is like a bit. This is what these guys do. And you've probably seen them before. This is like one of their famous clips. All right, counsel. It is 1.15 a.m. Chad. What up, counsel? My name is Chad Kroger. First of all, hang on, just a moment. So you may have a seat until I'll call you up. Thank you very much. First, I just want to say thank you. Nothing gets me more stoked than six hours of civil service.

I've come to you from a land called SoCal, and also just want to say that I'm honored to be in this newfound land of Delaware. I wasn't aware that the government had inducted a 51st state, but I'm stoked that you joined America. Welcome. First state, dude. According to our sources, an attempt has been made to suppress their right to party. Not to get too

Lawyery on you, but this is in direct violation of the constitution. Our forefathers valued the right to rage without government restriction. So basically that's what they do. I don't remember if I vaguely

was familiar with that, but I couldn't tell. Like, is this that thing? Or is this just, I'm thinking of that thing? But it's this kind of like low-key satire of where I grew up. I probably sound like these people

to some of you with some of the things that I say. And we became friends. We stayed in touch. I did the podcast again a couple years later. I watched their Netflix special, which was hilarious. And it's from that Netflix special that I learned that Chad is actually from Sacramento. He went to a high school that I almost went to. And then I listened to him on Pete Holmes' podcast, which was a great episode of this podcast also.

But I listened to him on Pete Holmes. And I was like, oh, this guy's, like, obviously I know he's smart because he wouldn't be able to do this comedy if he wasn't. But this guy's actually really deep, ironically, and really thoughtful and really nice. And so I shot him a note afterwards and I said, hey, hit me up when you're ever in Austin. I'd love to hang out or have you on the podcast. And he did. He was here for some music festival, which he was performing at. He's the best.

We talked about how he pulls off this comedy, which to me, seems like it must require a certain amount of discipline. One of my favorite bits is where he walks up to, like, people who are really into their cars at like classic car shows and stuff, and he just quotes lines from Fast and the Furious as if he made them up, or another one where he listens to the 50 Shades of Grey audiobook loudly in his car at gas stations or red lights and just doesn't let on that this is the most absurd thing ever. And he sort sits in that discomfort that it creates. Again, like a like a Larry David. or a bore at.

And there's just something, you know, I couldn't do that. I would bust up or I'd be overwhelmed with shame. So we actually did talk a little bit about shamelessness. We talked about self-consciousness. And does that get in the way of happiness or humor? Talking about leaning into your weirdness. And then the craft of comedy and a lot more. Chad and JT's podcast Go Deep is hilarious.

You can check out their YouTube channel. Chad is another YouTube channel called Academy of Chad, where he has a bunch of satirical videos called Chad Philosophy. Let me play a clip from this video, Find Lasting Happiness with Epicurus. You ever feel like you're striving for too much, like too much money, too much fan, too much status, and you feel like the Stoke is just out of reach?

And then one day, you're out surfing, you just got barreled, you're in between sets, a new tan is coming in, the sun's about to set, and you think, whoa, this is Peak Stoke. I am now at one with the universe. Well, so did Epicurus, who's all about finding froth in the tranquil joy,

of friendship and the epicness of existence in his philosophy, the pursuit of simple pleasures. Let's freaking dive in, dude. You can catch him performing stand-up all over the country as well. You can follow him on Instagram at Chad Goes Deep on TikTok at Chad and JT and on YouTube at Chad and JT go deep. Not everything in Stoicism has to be so serious. I think this is really funny. I think you'll like it.

And I was really glad he came on the podcast. I hope you like this episode. I think the first time I met you was one of the weirdest experiences of my life. Yeah, downtown L.A. Yeah, you guys came to my hotel room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they told me absolutely nothing. Yeah, yeah.

They were like, no, it's these two guys, they have a podcast. This is like 10 years ago, I think. So like podcasts were still like not real. They were like, it's two guys. They have this podcast. They're going to come to your hotel room. You're just recording. But they didn't tell me it was like this kind of weird.

satire, like, joke thing. Yeah. So I was just like, who, it was like, Borat or something, you know? Like, you're like, who are these people? And then it's like, it was in this uncanny valley between, like, real and not real. And then you guys went, you sat down, this would have been weird even if it wasn't in character. You just went directly into an ad read for, like, for, like, for people don't know. You do, like, the intros and the ad reads separate when they're not.

there so they're not sitting there but you guys went directly into an ad read for like a manscaping company and these people are in my room for the next hour what is that oh man i forgot we used to do that we used to do the ad read right with the yeah you know that was really early on with our podcast too because uh we were kind of unsure we just started having guests yeah and so it was in a moment where we were trying to just always be in character so we're like they're like do we be in character do we ask questions in character and we first started out and started like gaining some like traction all of our meetings and like we met with like producers yeah we did them all in character and uh it worked for some but for others they're like yeah you can't they're like what are you

doing yeah and we to us we were like no we have to stay in character like we're at this one guy and he's like he's like guys stop and then our agent was like hey if they tell you to break you can break and we're like okay I don't remember what book it was for. Stillness is the key. Okay. So this was, I guess, six or seven years ago. There's a thing that publicists do, which is, like, on the one hand, they're trying to get all the big things that move the needle. And then there's just, like, other things, they're just trying to, like, fill up the list, you know? And you never know, like, which one you're going to get. Yeah. But sometimes they, obviously, it's like, they have a relationship with someone and they know something. And they're just,

like, just trying to get, because it makes, I mean, they're like, hey, I know you have this book about philosophy, you should talk to Chad and JT. That's like your perfect audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so like the fact that they booked it was hilarious. Uh-huh. And then they just didn't brief me on it at all. They were like, okay, this is out of your wheelhouse, but it's going to be really fun. Yeah. Or whatever. Like, they didn't tell me about it at all. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was like, I know you were, like, you're doing NPR later in the day. Uh-huh. You know, you did the evening. You did like the local news yesterday. And then we're just squeezing in chat and j t nothing nothing we need to tell you about this yeah just an ordinary interview and then

i'm like what the fuck is happening that's so funny i yeah i didn't uh man it's so funny to look back on that yeah and we probably just left and you're like what was yeah i would love to i like the only reason i haven't gone back to watch it is that it might ruin whatever like i i think so fondly of it but i'm just remembering it being like what is my life right now and and are these people like this Because I grew up in California So like it's I think that's what is so compelling about the characters Is that they are in the uncanny valley of like you don't if you I think you have to be pretty dense to be like Borat This is real right you know like yeah there's a whole world that you would have to go in by that

Yeah But like if you come from California like this isn't that out of the ordinary no weird but yeah it's I mean it's very close to who I am yeah you know it's my brother is sometimes like that's who you really are in a sense because like in real life or when I'm not sort of like you know playing Chad or whatever I'm like kind of a little bit guarded and not not guarded but just a little bit more introverted but when I'm like feel like kind of fully like safe with people that's like when I'm and he's like Chad is who you really are like on the inside so there's like a Michael Scottness to it where it's like what is a person who doesn't feel shame which Like, shame is a constraint on all of us.

So I can imagine if you removed shame or self-consciousness, there's something very freeing, but then also kind of terrifying about that guy. Totally. Yeah, and I've always admired. Those are always my favorite characters in TV, you know, Kramer, Michael Scott. It's like people who go through life who were to you,

it just looks like they're in their minds, they're always winning. Yeah. And they're always kind of crushing it. And they're not even aware of like what other people are thinking or what other people think of them. And I always, whenever I would watch that, especially watching Seinfeld, I'd always be,

it just felt so freeing to watch for me. Yeah. And so I think that's why I kind of gravitated towards playing, you know, a character like that because it's just, that's kind of how I want to be in life. Did you ever do the Seinfeld reality tour in New York? No, I haven't done that. But it's like led by the actual Kramer.

Is it? Yeah, yeah. It's like that whole thing is real. So like, remember there's like an arc in later in the season where Kramer does the Peterman reality tour because he's Peter, it's the whole thing. But Kenny Kramer was a comic that Jerry and Larry David were friends with or lived down the hall from them or whatever.

They based it on him. And then as the show blew up, he kind of became famous, but he didn't participate in it. He started a real bus tour. And I went on it when I was like in high school or something. Yeah. And you're like, it's kind of like cool behind the scenes, but you're also like there is something like sad and weird about it that like,

you're like, oh, it actually wouldn't be fun to be Kramer. because, like, in real life, this is what Kramer is doing. Exactly. It doesn't actually have anything going on. This is, like, his main thing, but it was weird. It's interesting how, like, movies or TV shows can kind of glorify that. Like, I think a good example is Brad Pitt's character in Once Upon Time Hollywood, Cliff Booth, because he lives in a trailer. He's single, you know, he's, Quentin Tarantino, he's like, he's basically a loser.

Yeah. But when you see Brad Pitt playing him, you're like, I want to be that guy. Yeah. And it's interesting how, you know, in TV and film, it's able to do that. Yeah, it is. You know, Michael Scher? So he has this book called How to Be Perfect, which is actually a book. It's very smart, but it's a book about moral philosophy.

And they have this section in it about, like, whether it would be awesome to be Michael Scott or not. Right. Like, is actually that the greatest person to be because you're, like, the Dunning Krueger effect where you're, like, stupid, but you're not smart enough to know that you're stupid. Like ignorance is bliss. And then he kind of goes, like, would maybe a. a better example is like, would it be awesome to be Ron Gruncowski? Right. Because like the problem with Michael Scott is his life is objectively very sad. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. He's, you know, cooking bacon for himself on his foreman grill and no one wants to be with it. Like, until the relatively

close to the end of the show, like his life sucks. But like, is there something about the sort of like o-fish but good-natured and mostly hitting green lights on, um, in the course, like, would you rather be that than someone with self-awareness? Yeah, I mean, the, the, the, kind of a golden retriever who's crushing it. Yes. Yes. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that sounds awesome to me.

Yeah, he, that's, Ron Gorkowski seems like a big golden retriever. Like, a derpy dog. Yeah. Who actually, from what I've read, is actually, like, pretty smart. Like, he's like, I only live on my, you know, my endorsement money or whatever. Like, it seems like he's playing a bit of a character, actually. Yeah. But, like, there's something about self-consciousness, I think, that is probably at odds with happiness.

That's different than self-awareness, but that, like, sensitivity to how you're coming off. Well, oftentimes, if we're shooting something and, like, we're kind of in character, it is very freeing. That freeing sense of, like, just being totally unaware of how other people are feeling is very, yeah. Kind of like what I was saying earlier, that's kind of why I gravitate towards that. because it's like that's kind of how I want to live yeah I'm the fifth child so I think I was always kind of branded as that when I was growing up is like kind of like the baby to everyone so you're like I'm the baby they're like you're going to win the lottery you're just lucky yeah you know you just kind of like you're just kind of cruising through life and and like I studied philosophy

in college and you know like my older brothers in finance you know they're just all very focused on successful and then I was like yeah I'm going to study philosophy they're like what are you going to do with that I'm like I don't know comedy yeah yeah Steve Martin did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was funny speaking of self-consciousness because I did this talk this morning. It was like a thousand people. The venue was supposed to seat a thousand people, but you ever get in front of a group?

And it's like, it's not, I wasn't supposed to deliver the audience. So it's not on me. But you're just like, you're like seeing empty chairs. And you're just like, it could be full or it's not full. Yeah. Why are they not here? Do they leave? So now you're thinking about what you're doing as you're doing it and what you're not doing it.

Yeah. I think art, comedy, writing, sports, like the second you're kind of like seeing yourself as you're doing it, you're out of it. And there's probably something about being in the character because the character doesn't think about any of that. You don't have to think about any of it and you're just in it. Yeah, I used to, or I'd still do like really enjoy bombing because especially when I started doing that kind of on stage, like I'd sort of develop the persona on stage and it's like sometimes, especially early on audiences would just be like, what do you do? And, like, to me, that was so satisfying because I'm like, oh, they think it's real. And so I kind of found there's like a fringness, whereas if I'm being more myself, you can kind of hone in like, you know, if everyone's laughing, but there's one guy. Yeah.

Not, he's like kind of looking at his phone. He's just like kind of like looking around. You just hone in on that. And it's, it does kind of like break you from that kind of like performance kind of flows. Well, it must be weird for you because if the audience is in on the joke, like they know who you are. Yeah. that's much more favorable to you than when you're performing in front just like if you're just going up in front of a at a club or if you're like in front of a city council meeting or whatever

like the character kind of thrives on the the not receptiveness to it so the way like a bad audience is a good audience for you and a good audience is kind of a bad audience true yeah like if people if people are familiar with me then they're kind of in on the joke and then the surprise isn't there as much so you kind of have to work to to, you know, whereas if it's an audience that doesn't know who I am, you know, sometimes it can really pop because it's like the surprise is there from the jump. But as soon as I walk on stage, they're kind of like, something's off. Yeah.

And so they're, and if they buy into it, they're on board for the whole ride. And so it doesn't even really matter about like the, like, writing, if I'm doing stand-up, if the writing or punchlines, those matter, but it's more in just my way of being. Yeah. That I think makes them laugh, which is something I noticed with like Sebastian. Ashton Manascalco, are you fan of his? When I watched him on stage for the first time, the way he walked up made me laugh.

And I was like, oh, I want to do that where he had this, like, Italian kind of, like, swagger. But it was just so funny to me. And I'm like, man, if you can just, like, exude, like, a funny, weird confidence as you walk on stage. Well, because he's playing a character. He's acting like it's him. But he's closer to, like, Larry the cable guy than he is,

Jerry Seinfeld in the sense of it's like it's this thing that he's doing yeah yeah yeah it's like that's his persona that's sort of the side of himself that he's honed in on that's that's funny yeah I like stand-up comics who are more like writer comic like they're just doing it to me when it feels like they're performing right then it it gets more towards like one-man show or spoken word and then it just it punctures the illusion for me like I think to me great stand-up comedy even though it actually is a highly honed performance that they are just reciting a script for, I like the feeling that they're like, what am I going to talk about next? You know what I mean?

Like that, to me, those are more of my favorites. Yeah, where it's sort of stream of consciousness. It feels like stream of consciousness. It's like this is. Even though they know exactly the hour they're performing when they're hitting all the spot, but it feels like they're just saying the stuff. Like I don't like Ted talky speakers either where they're like, they've, performed the hand gestures, and they, like, took a class on charisma or something.

Yeah. Where it's all scripted and you can kind of, yeah. Whereas, like, Bill Burr, I think Bill Burr is really good at that, where he can, he can rant on stage, and it feels like it's all coming from his, or is Chappelle, like, yeah. You see Chappelle, he always feels like it's unrehearsed. Yes. And it's like, he's like, this is just what I'm feeling.

And, yeah, he's really good at creating that. Because sometimes you'll watch his specials, I'm like, Did he just practice this at all, or is this just how he talks? Yeah, but he must have. Oh, yeah, I think. No one's booking a theater and paying for production to be like, let's hope it's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's like another level of talent where it's, it's a...

Yeah, I mean, it's all about making it look effortless or that you're not trying. This is an ad by BetterHelp. I have a therapy appointment in... two days. It's from 10 to 11. I do it remotely. So it takes from 10 to 11. I don't have to drive. I don't have to find parking. I don't have to worry about traffic. And I think this is really great because when we can have excuses or when there are impediments or friction to taking care of ourselves, we sometimes take the excuse to not take care of ourselves. And that's why I do online therapy. And that's where today's sponsor comes in with over 30,000 therapists, better

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It was funny because so after you guys came, I was like, what the fuck is this? And then a couple months later, whatever, I saw one of the clip, like I saw one of the sort of viral clips.

Yeah. And it was very triggering for me because when I was 20, maybe, I just started at American Apparel. I think I've told this story before, but I just started American Apparel. And the company was like a disaster.

So he would just like, there would just be these, like, girls in his life. He's like, I think we should have another store in Toronto. Go figure it out. You know, he would just, like, assign these people had no idea what they were doing to, like, open a store for a company doing $500 million in sales.

And so he had done this in San Francisco, and he had sent this girl to open this store in the Mission District. And actually, the Mission District had some weird San Francisco-y law that banned big-box retailers. But their definition of a big-box retailer was any restaurant or retailer with more than 10 locations. Oh, interesting. So,

so suddenly, like, to open this store, like, they just, they thought they'd sign the lease, they're going to open it. They put up the coming soon sign. And then it all came to a screeching hall when, like, these community activists were like, no, no, you're a big box retailer. You can't come gentrify our neighborhood. And it was going to be subjected to, like, a city council meeting with, like, public opinion. And so they were like, Ryan, you have to go. I was like, I didn't do this. Also, I have no training in this whatsoever. Right, right, right. They're like, no, no, you need to go address this, like, city council meeting. And so I go, they told me I would speak first. I had five minutes. So I prepared five minutes of remarks. Well, like so many hundreds of people came that they,

I get up there and they're like, actually, you have two minutes. I don't think I've ever spoken in public before. And I, so I had to somehow, I do my remarks. They don't go well. And I'm wearing an American Apparel shirt, like a gray shirt. And have you ever read a man in full? No. It's the Tom Multhum. I'll give it to you in there. But there's this scene between like a loan agent and the main character of the book and he's like, my goal is to give him saddlebags. And they go, what's saddlebags? He's like, I'm going to lay into this dude so much. He's like, he's like, you're going to start to see the saddlebag under his arms. So you can see pictures of this because it was like covered. And I'm just like so, I'm just like, I'm out, I'm losing it.

Anyways, so I do my thing and I go, okay, I did my part, whatever. That's as bad as it's going Okay. And then they direct me, I have to sit in the front row and then be addressed by the community for the next two hours. Oh, no. Yeah. And these are wackos from San Francisco. These are community activists from San Francisco objecting to what they think is a big box retailer, gentrifying their neighborhood. So, yeah, I just sat there and I got yelled at. And so you were representing that. Representing for two hours. And, you know, it's like, this woman gets up and she's like, I was hoping to open like a vintage sex toy store. Like, that was a real thing that she said. And I'm like, what?

Vintage sex toy. And then this one guy gets up and he goes, and this is why I thought of you guys, it was like pros. And again, right? And he's like, he gets up as a pro. And he's like, I was here to speak in favor of American apparel. but that's because they paid me he was doing performance art where he was pretending that he was a paid plant and then was ripping the mask off to show that he was actually against it and that the corporate interest was trying to bribe the community and it was just like I'm like what has happened like this dude is doing like there's not even

television cameras like he's just doing this art like for himself and then there were just all the people like like what you guys do where they're just getting up and they're just talking about totally like I can't get my television to work you know or whatever I just sit there for two hours

one person earnestly spoke in favor and then two hours of nose and then I just had to go home when you're sitting there like how are you because I'll watch the council

when they're berating the council the council kind of just like kind of like not even where you just sort of just yeah and I'm like 20 years old like I have no idea Like, and then, yeah, and it's like I didn't, it wasn't my idea to open the store, it wasn't my responsibility to open the store, I've worked at this place for like six months, I don't know,

fucking nothing. Wow. And I was, it was just like, what is my life right now? I mean, now it's hilarious to me, but I was just like, in the morning, I was like, what is happening? Yeah. Did they, uh, did they give you a script? Did you write it? Like, I wrote like a little, I wrote five minutes of remarks. Yeah. I mean, if I'm like, hey, go up, do five minutes tonight.

and then as you walk on stage they're like actually two you're like five this is like a whole there's a whole rhythm like yeah yeah i can't like two is a world of different yeah difference than five and so i think i you know i barely got through my things which i had written out and even if i delivered like like some rudy-esque speech they would have been like no like there's nothing i could it was a foregone conclusion we should have just eaten the lease yeah from the beginning yeah the punchline to the whole thing is like the mission district is now one of the most gentrified neighborhoods in san francisco it was totally pointless yeah uh but that was and and did did you guys end up you ended up opening the store no i don't think so oh no no no i think they just ate a 10-year

release yeah i uh that's so interesting because um i'll watch the council too i mean they'll have people just screaming at them every meeting they'll be like calling for them to be you know arrested yeah and then they're like all right next agenda item like they're so they'll like, they deal with that so much that they're able to just kind of, I think they're compartmentalize that. Yeah, yeah. Like, there must be some briefing you get the day after you get elected. And they're like, okay, let me tell you how a city council meeting goes. These are the 20 people that attend all the meetings. Yeah. This is what they talk about. Yeah. You cannot engage in any way. These are the red lines that we enforce. And then, you know, just think about what you're going to have for dinner or whatever.

Like, because there is a kind of a, they're having to be very self-controlled. Yes. I've only seen a couple instances where, um, the council has responded. Usually at L.A. City Council, because it gets so heated in there. Right. You know, if someone from the public is saying racist remarks or something, I've seen them actually engage. Yeah.

But other than that, they're, they're very, um, they're able to just sort of take it in and they're like, okay, well, I, you know, propose this change to the agenda. Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, someone's just called them. terrorist or something yeah so when we got in the council actually people they enjoy it they're pumped well because it's it's totally off topic but it's not like alarming in any way and it's like it's I don't know it's like a puppy just ran up or something yeah what's it gonna do yeah exactly although some of it's weird it's not like creepy like yeah you know like yeah it's positive

trolling that's what we call it yeah yeah yeah positive trolling yeah yeah it's a lot of fun yeah what is the difference between positive trolling and regular trolling? Like, where do you draw the line? I think positive trolling is generally the joke is on us. Yeah. So we're always trying to make fun of ourselves. Negative trolling is, I think, when you come in with the intention of trying to elicit a reaction from them.

Right. And usually attacking someone or being offensive in a way to get a negative reaction from someone. Right, right. Like the famous one where he does like the thing during the national, he sings the national He's trying to trample on whatever they hold most sacred. Yeah. You're like just going on this like benign rant around a seemingly nonsense issue.

Exactly, yeah. Sometimes trying to have like a hidden message underneath, but a lot of times it's just being silly and just trying to, you know, put the joke. That's our main thing is the joke is always on us. We always try to, we never really want to be punching down or making fun of someone. Right. And then if someone gives us a negative reaction, that's sort of on them.

Yeah. Like, I remember when we did, like, a video where we were handing out masks in Huntington Beach in, like, 2020. And we were just trying to be as naive and innocent as possible because it was during, like, the, like, lockdown protests. And so we just had a box full of masks and we were handing that in Huntington Beach. And which Huntington Beach is, like, weirdly conservative, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like kind of a, very conservative. It's like a MAGA, like, dot in the middle of California. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we knew what we were doing. Yeah. it was maybe actually that was maybe more trolling than just positive trolling but the the naivete that we was like oh we're just handing a mask and then like allowing people to kind of decide about how they

want to react is kind of so if it's negative that's sort of we it's on them if that makes sense I feel like weirdly the stoic thing for you guys is like the one standing character must be difficult but like the restraint to take the thing you're doing seriously must be tough like When you pull up and you're blasting the audiobook of 50 Shades of Gray at a gas station, or you're just going up to these dudes who really care about cars and you're just quoting Fast and Furious as if they're real car observations. Yeah. Like, it only works if you act like it's not the dumbest thing ever.

Yes. Yeah, where it's, it's, they say in comedy, it's like, to the character, it's not comedic. To the character, it's, you know, if you're playing, if you're in comedy, you're playing a character and you're trying to be funny, like Michael Scott, you know, Steve Carell, you know, I think he's playing that where he believes that whatever he's doing is right. And it's like kind of. That's, it makes sense to him. It makes sense to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, it's sort of buying into that where you're not, I think, yeah, that just the golden rule is not trying to be funny. Right. It's taking yourself so seriously that it kind of. But that's the self-consciousness thing that you have to conquer, right? Yeah. You have to be in the thing doing it.

Yeah. Even though if you zoomed out, you know that you set up the premise. So you know the premise is funny. Yeah. And you're doing it to be funny. And yet you have to embody this space, this physical body, where you're insisting that it's not funny. Yes. And that would require, I think, a lot of self-control.

Yeah. that kind of if someone's laughing yeah they're laughing at you and there's that temptation to kind of break the tension and laugh with them smile to match the you're having to not match the emotion of the person across from you yeah and your instincts would be like yeah smile break the tension yeah let them know that you're joking yes and kind of let them know that you're not yeah insane but then the the kind of I guess the I guess craft of it is sort of like no go deeper into the to the opposite of that like get more serious, get more, and that's actually when we started doing podcast, trying to interview in character

because there's like 60 minutes, you know? Yeah, yeah. And we're like, and at a certain point you're like, man, like, I just want to let them know. And there is that, that is like a discipline, I think, to kind of discipline to that kind of performance, yeah. You have to do that when you have kids where it's like, they're telling you something and it's like the dumbest thing ever.

Right. And you have to be like, oh, yeah, that's a, like, not just like, oh, you have to listen. and, you know, the acting of, like, listening to boring stories, but more like, I have to take what you think is a grievous wrong very seriously, even though it's comically absurd, you know? Yeah. Or, like, you have to take the fear of serious. You can't, you can't just be like, no, no, no, it's all right.

Or, like, no, it doesn't matter. Like, you have to, you have to, like, first engage with it as serious and then sort of talk them out of it or talk them through it. Right. But your instinct is to be like, what? You know, like, and you can't do that. Yeah, yeah, totally. How many kids do you have?

Two. Two. That must be fun. It's a lot. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot, yeah. Yeah, they're, they're, like, maniacs. How old are they now? Nine and one turned six yesterday. Oh, okay, before yesterday.

But, yeah, it's also funny, like, my oldest, he took, like, an improv class in school or in, like, a club. So then I was, like, what happened was I made a huge mistake, which is that I was, like, I told him the Michael Scott thing. from the first season in The Office, where he's in improv, and in every scene, he, like, kicks down the door, and he just goes, like, freeze, FBI, which he immediately thought was the funniest thing of all time. And then he told the other kids in the class, and so it just, like, essentially broke the class. They all did that. Because, like, on the Michael Scott level, they just immediately, like, they understood what Michael Scott understood, which is, like, that's the most intense thing you can do. Right, right. Even though, you know, and so, like, watching this performance, and they're all, like,

trying to do it you know it was funny but then i started showing him other stuff like i showed him stuff and then we watched like saturday live and now he just like quotes stuff from and you're just like oh how are we like getting the same right we're like enjoying the same jokes yeah that's weird like he really likes like the naparazzi like george washington one like because like life is absurd and he doesn't understand why it's like because he's always like how many is several you know like uh you know or like so so at some level he's getting he's already sort of picking up on like the fucked upness of like why things are the way that they are in the world you know yeah that must be a trip like uh it's because you know seeing them from a baby to when they're

actually starting to develop a personality and like understand things and I'm sure that's kind of like oh you actually understand well to understand something enough to see what's funny about it right is like another level of understanding and then it kind of sneaks up on you, like, when that's happening. There's one, it's called King Brothers Toyota on SNL. Oh, it's like a, it's a, probably not funny for anyone listening. But it's a Toyota like sales commercial for this, like some local dealership. But the local dealership is having trouble selling the cars because they put in a raisin canes

and a chick-fil-a like near the exit. And you know how like how the drive-thru is back up? Yeah. And so, like, the whole thing is about how, like, if they take exit 260, but you, if you get in the right lane, you'll get stuck and you can't get into the, like, right, right, yeah. And it's, like, we were driving yesterday and we passed, like, the Chick-fil-A that's in this town. And he goes, like, hard, get hard in that left lane, you know? And he's, like, doing the thing. And it's like, this is what I remember doing with my friends as a kid.

And now, like, you're already, you're, like, quoting. now we're now we're quoting stuff back together that like really snuck up on me yeah it's so interesting what age do you think you can watch dumb and dumber because i'm trying to think i'm trying to like i'm going back through and like what are things that you know like and and then it's like sometimes you watch you know oh fuck i forgot like somebody kills himself in the middle of this or whatever and then you're like it's not the cursing i don't care about but it's like some it's like oh wait there's a weird like orgy scene or something you're like what is this so i'm trying to think when when did i watch dumb and dumber What's funny is I think I start watching those movies pretty early.

Yeah. I was watching Seinfeld on like first grade. Okay. My teacher was like, I was like, what did you do last night? I'm like, I'll watch the series finale of Seinfeld. And she's like, what? And like JT, my like comedy partner, he was watching like heat when he was like five. For both of you, this is not like an endorsement of doing this early.

It's like, oh, this is why they ended up the way that thing is. Exactly. Yeah. So maybe maybe I'm like, you should. should wait. I remember watching Austin Powers when it came out of seven, so is that comparable to dumb and dumber? I think Austin Powers is more adult than dumb and dumber. I think if you're nine, I think you're, I think you're ready. Okay. You grew up in Sacramento, right? I did, yeah. Where'd you grow up? I was so Carmichael and Isac. So my dad lived in Isac, mom lived in Carmichael.

Got it. Yeah, yeah. And you were, were you Granite Bay? Well, in high school. I grew up in Fair Oaks. I was Born in Gold River, and then we moved to Fair Oaks, and then we moved my parents that didn't want me to go to Bella Vista. Okay. Where'd you go to high school? A grandbet. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All my friends went to Jesuit. Yeah. Yeah. I think my parents had some illusions of me going there and then, like, didn't do any work to make that happen. So then I just... Right.

You had to go to... You had to do all these testing and stuff. Yeah. And you had to go to, like, Sunday school and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Which I didn't grow up religious, so it was, like, kind of like, I was, my parents said me to boarding school so but my dad was actually considering granite bay yeah he's like should i move to granite bay to do grant bay or it was like the new it's like you know when like they opened a new high

school it's like the best one yeah like they just i think they just opened it yeah and that's why they yeah they moved there my grandfather my mom's dad was a german teacher at belavista oh really so like yeah yeah but for like 40 years so i think there was like no yeah yeah yeah Sacramento yeah It was a great place to grow up. You thought so? You know what? I think I went to a boarding school for high school. Yeah.

On the East Coast? Yeah. And I think something about growing up in Sacramento is like as opposed to other parts of California like San Francisco or if you grew up in L.A., it's kind of, I think it grounded me a little bit more. Just like kind of, it was a little bit, kind of away from the glamour of Hollywood or like San Francisco or something where it's, you're around more normal people. would say. Yeah. See, I think that was the problem for me is that it was just normal people.

Like, obviously, none of my parents' friends or my friend's parents were writers. But I don't think any of them were entrepreneur. I think they all had jobs. Like, all had as normal, a boring, a job as you could imagine. Yeah. And so if that's what you're meant to do, that's very comforting, I think. It is limiting in terms of, like, your sense of what's possible. Right. You know what I mean? I haven't thought about that. Yeah, because I guess I went to, I was kind of like, went to boarding school. Their parents did all sorts of incredible things.

So I was, yeah, I was exposed to, you know, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, so that's an interesting point because I, to me, it was always sort of like having that foundation of Sacramento. And then kind of going into a world that's a little bit more glamorous and kind of, but yeah, I never really thought about that. Well, like the NEPO baby thing. Yeah. People think it's about that they opened doors. And I'm sure they did. And it's just like if your parents are well off, like you have more freedom to do things.

But I think a big portion of it's like your parents showed you that that was a thing you could do. That's the job. Like Steph Curry growing up in basketball arenas probably contributed as much as the genetics did. He was like, this is a place you go to work. This is how it works. This is what you have to do to qualify for this line of work. You know what I mean? Like I think if either of my parents had gone to private schools, they would,

have understood the process for getting your kid into a private school. Yeah, there's legacy admissions, but also just like, you know how that system works. Yes. And so they didn't. They were just like, well, our kid's smart. Can he go here? And it's like, no, there was like a process you had to go through. Unless you're a genius. And they didn't go through the process so they didn't get it. Like knowing like the rules or the norms of spaces, that's, I think, that's like the real privilege that gets passed on it. To me, that's the NEPO baby thing. It's like you understand how the system works right yeah yeah because i remember when i when i first moved to hollywood to like pursue acting my dad approached it he's a doctor so he approached it from the academic doctor he's like he's like i want

you to go j crew get some sweaters yeah yeah get a haircut yes like you're going in for a job interview and then you realize you know very early on it's like no if you were like quirky you need to be quirky in order to like stand out oh it's so funny you said that because so i so i went to riverside and because I was like, I want to, like, Southern California is where it's at. Even though Riverside could not be further. Like, I might as well have just stayed in Sacramento. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. First of the drive, one's an hour and a half drive and one's a five-hour drive.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But I just thought, like, Southern California, that's where it's at. Mm-hmm. And then I remember I got, like, through someone, I got like this interview for like an internship at a, like a record label. Mm-hmm. So I told my parents and they were like, same thing.

They were like, here's our credit card, like, go buy a suit. And I bought a suit. I showed up to an interview at a record label in a suit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, I lost the job the second I stepped in. You know, like, you would have been like, hey, go buy these 50 albums and listen to that. Do you know, like, but to my parents, just like to your parents, not understanding the system, they're like, you got to dress up. And then you got to show up and have good answers to the questions.

It's like, no, you're actually precluding yourself from having the job by the way they're showing. So it's like, it's understanding how the logic or the incentives of different systems work. That's like the real power. Yeah. And it's so, yeah, because the first year I was in L.A., I was wearing button-ups and it's wearing, like, you know, kind of like preppy clothes. And people are like, what are you? Like, this isn't you.

And I'm like, and then once I, like, I started doing stand-up and I started teaching surfing as like a day job. And I started to like, you know, get tan and kind of blonde streaks in my hair. And then people were kind of responding to that. It's like, oh, like, that's who I should be, not this kind of like. You got to act like you've been here before. Exactly. You're acting like no one wants, you're acting, you're showing that you're a tourist.

Yeah. And my dad was always like starting off. He's like, you know, I really think you should try to get a job as a soap opera actor because it's consistent. It's a day job. He's like, he's very focused on, it's very, you know, he's always thinking about our futures and like worried about it. And he's like, this is like the most consistent.

thing you could do this for 40 years and get a steady paycheck you may want to kill yourself but he's like he's like general hospital that's that's my dream yeah yeah yeah it's so interesting yeah it did take me a little bit because a while to to embrace that like no you have to embrace your weirdness especially in something like entertainment yeah um you know kind of lean into it we almost moved when my parents were thinking of the granite bay thing they were also like my dad got a job offer in tahoe and so they were thinking and i think and i think about like I think I would have become Chad or JT if they did you know what I yeah yeah yeah like because we had some I had a friend in Sacramento and they're around the same time yeah they moved to you know

and like I think about like what he's doing and how his brother turned I'm like oh okay this is actually like a huge you probably don't want your kid to grow up in paradise I thought about that too my dad said he had like an offer to work in San Diego yeah and he also almost worked in Reading but not quite paradise not quite paradise but San Diego yeah growing up, I'd be like, what? Yeah. La Jolla? Like, and he's like, I don't like it.

It's cloudy. I'm like, what? But yeah, looking back on that, you know, it does seem like a little bit of a hindrance because you grow out, like, I feel like that, you know, it might create a lack of motivation. You know, or you're just around, I don't know, maybe it's who you're around or, yeah, it's something, because it's funny that you mentioned San Diego because I used to go like, why do we live in Sacramento?

And they're like, it's close to San Francisco, close to Tahoe. And I'm like, so it's, it's primary selling point is its proximity to two other better places. Yeah, it's like the parking lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because now they, like, they retire. They live in nice places. And I'm like, why did you live 50 years in a place that sucked for hopefully 30 years in a place that doesn't? Yeah.

And so I'm like, San Diego, you could have just split the difference. Yeah. But yeah, I think there's probably something good to grow up in like a normal, regular place. Like, kids who grow up in Manhattan, I'm like, why. What is your life like? Oh, yeah, I went to high school kids here from Manhattan. Yeah, it's, but I like what you're saying, too, it's like there's, there's that mix of, like, having kind of sort of a grounded base that kind of keeps you humble, but also being exposed to, you know, people who actually, who really kind of. You need to know it's possible.

Yes. And I think, like, it wasn't until I went to college. Actually, I just invited and I spoke at the college that I went to. And, like, so what happened was, I got in and they sent us, like, in the summer before we started to this, like, seminar. that was taught by this professor who was a novelist. And we had to, like, read her novel. And we get the book. And it's, like, a real book.

Like, from a real... It says, like, New York Times best seller. Like, it was a real... And I'm like, oh, this is a thing that people do. Like, I loved reading, but, like, I had the same relationship to books as I did to movies, you know, in that, like, I know they exist, but I have zero conception of how they get made and who gets to make them. It's like, like a rock star.

Like, yes, there's 20 people who get to do this. But it's not a thing that regular people can do. And I met this woman. Her name is Susan Strait. And she's like sort of a California novelist. And it's like, oh, like you're a regular person and this is your job. Yeah. I got more out of that in the college experience than any classes that I learned.

Like just the immediate exposure to how a whole field or like a world that I didn't. know existed, existed. Yeah. Which if I stayed in Sacramento, would not have occurred. Totally. Yeah. I think, I think for me, it's being exposed to the kind of people where you know it's possible.

And for me, it's like, I knew nothing about Hollywood. I knew nothing about how the same thing. Like, movies get made. Like, I wanted to shoot a sketch. I didn't understand really the lighting. He's like, we need to set up lighting. I was like, what? Yeah.

And, like, I didn't, you know, I had like a huge amount of naivete. Yeah. But I think that served me well in, in the same. sense that, like, I was, I had seen people, been around people who had kind of, you know, followed their dreams. And so I was like, yeah, I could do that. Like, there's something like, there's this weird confidence where, like, I could totally do that. And then when you get in it, you kind of, I was like, you kind of learn everything. But I think that, that kind of just having that knowing inside your head of like, oh, I could totally doing that. And there's just

thrusting yourself into it. Well, that's a, so obviously my contention is that ego is generally bad. Yeah. And it fucks people up. Yeah. But you do see, especially in, the arts, that ego, because it sometimes resembles confidence or because it ignores obvious dangers or worst case scenarios or like logic or appropriateness, it sometimes is advantageous. So like naivete can be helpful because like you don't know like, yeah, you, you just tried to do something. The odds were a trillion to one. But then there's also like the ego of like, yeah, I'm worthy of this. You know, like, yeah. Like I, you should. You should. You should. You. You should. You. should give me millions of dollars to do this thing or yeah like I'm totally qualified to do this

yeah and like the ego like I've I know this one author I've known him a long time and like I think his superpower is he asks for stuff that he has zero business asking for do you know what I mean like and he never feels uncomfortable about it and I don't I don't think he's like pushing through the discomfort yeah and I don't even know if it's like confidence I think it's just more like He's not even aware that it's a thing that a normal person would be like, what? Yeah. I just ran with my buddy on Town Lake Trail here in Austin, did 10 miles in roughly 70 minutes. And then I ran with his brother, his twin brother.

This is my best friends from middle school. I ran with his twin brother when I was in Greece. He was there with his wife's family. We ran outside Olympia. And then in between these two runs, I ran the original marathon. I ran from Marathon to Athens. And you know what shoes I used? I used today's sponsor, Hoka. They actually have a new shoe, the Rocket X3, which is a race day shoe that's engineered for speed when every second counts. The Rocket X3 is built to meet the demands of race day. It's lightweight. It's responsive. It's tuned for speed. And it's got this carbon plate in there that enhances stability. And it's got the high rebound Piba foam that cushions you against the road. It's grippy rubber

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I like an ego's enemy, you know, always be a student. I always try to remember that, just having that mindset of, like, learning from people and always trying to get better and working on the craft. But, yeah, I think there's kind of a mix of, like, that always being a student, like, that humility and that having that mindset. But also, yeah, just this, do you call it ego or something of just, like, this kind of like, oh, yeah, why? You're going to go up to the head of a network and be like,

you should give me a show. Yeah. You know, and it's like, you can't do that. But sometimes it works for that. There's some people that it works for. Totally. And then you're just like, fuck, wait, is that what I'm supposed to be doing? Yeah.

Or is that also that person's Achilles heel? Yeah. Yeah. I think it, there's probably more cases where it totally doesn't work. And then there's like, there's a few unicorns where they're like, it just works out for them. Yeah, they just walk through raindrops, like their whole, every time they ask, they never hear no. Yeah. They get the right person at the right.

time. They just like, they just get stuff they have no business getting that other people had to work very hard to like earn. There's just a kind of like, yeah, it's like what they say, like, may you have the confidence of an average white man, you know, just like, just the world is my oyster. Yeah. It's like, okay. Yeah, do you think there's, do you think there's something to that mindset where like it just in the way you come off to people or something where it just creates scenarios where things tend to work out? I think if you're not looking very closely or you're not very informed. Yeah.

Like you're not savvy. Ego and confidence look very similar. Right. Like mania can look like charisma. Yeah. But if you, so if you've never been around someone to be like, oh, this is what a crazy person does. Yeah.

You're like, I'm pumped around this guy. You don't realize like it's going to crash at some point. Yeah. And I think especially if you're not confident, that the confidence of ego, statistical or narcissistic people. I mean, like, you look at the first couple people that I worked for, I was clearly searching for something, you know, like some daddy issues stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because I look at my sister. So it's like clearly something in the upbringing. We're like, we want to work. Most people see that kind of boss and run the other way. We're like, I love it here. Yeah.

This is normal. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think there's a lack of awareness if it works for you until it doesn't work for you and then you then you tweet something and you're like what you know what do you mean totally on a long enough timeline it becomes a disadvantage that's why I think you can confidently go like ego is the enemy but it clearly I mean there's obviously an extraordinary amount of very successful very egotistical people yeah I just think it's it's two things one like the myth of was it Croesus where it's like you can't you got to wait till the end to you judge a person happy. But I also think unless you're really, really studying them closely, you're not seeing all the ways that they actually could have been more successful. Right. So it's like maybe, yeah, that person's

ego makes them shameless enough to ask for stuff that they have no business doing. But by the same token, they tend not to do the work to then earn the thing because they think their entire, like, you know what I mean? Like the confidence to get like, it seems like confidence to be like, give me the shot games on the line. Yeah. But, like, actually a great athlete's like, they know they have to do the work to earn that, you know? Yeah.

And if you're just like, no, no, give it to me, but you don't have the goods. Yeah. Then you're going to lose said game when it's on the line. Yeah. I see what you're saying. I think that's, yeah, it's the confidence to want to get the opportunity to, to put yourself in that position. Even when I was starting out, it was like, you know, there's these things called bringer

shows for stand-up have you heard of that like basically you get stage time if you bring five friends if you bring the audience you get stage time so early on i like did like an open mic and i like there's a bringer show they're like yeah we can give you stage at the we can give you stage time at the comedy store and i'm like amazing yeah and yeah just bring five friends so immediately i was like yeah i'm already on stage at the comedy store this is crazy and then i quickly you know wore out all my friends i'm like they were like dude we're not coming to any more shows I'm like, oh, and, like, it was this thing where I had, like, the naivete or to be like, no, I can be on stage at the comedy store, but then quickly learning, I'm like, oh, no,

it takes, what it really takes is two to three open mics a night. Yeah. Every night for 10 years. Yeah, you need a certain amount of shamelessness to get up and do the thing when you're bad, which you invariably are at the beginning. Yeah. But you also need, like, the humility and maybe even the self-loathing. Yeah.

to, like, think that you're bad. Yes. So you do the work to get good. Yeah. Sometimes people will have just the confidence or the Hutzpah to be like, I can fucking do this. Yeah. And then they get up there and they so live in their own bubble that they're just bad,

but they're not feeling the shame of being bad and then doing the work to get good. So you're, you just, that's how you stay shitty for a long period of time. And you see that a lot, like the people who will get off stage and being, And I crushed. Yeah. You're like, no, you didn't. Yeah. If you walk off feeling like you crushed, it's like the best in the world don't feel that way.

No. So that you feel that way. So that's where ego is the enemy because it's making you stay as you are. It's probably more pleasant to not feel shitty. Yeah. But the shitty is, like, Ira Glass talks about this. He's like there's a taste talent gap. Yeah.

When you start. And you have good taste, which is you know what. funny or you know what's beautiful or you know what's good writing but like you can't do it but the desire to bridge that gap is like the propulsive force that makes you good but if you're just like maybe you have good taste but then you're also biased when it comes to yourself or you're delusional when it comes to yourself that's a problem because now you're just not you're just like confidently being shitty like just because you believe you can do something you're not going to be able to do it but just because you believe you can do something is not even close to sufficient to being able to do it.

it. Yeah, it's always having this kind of this mindset of like, no, there's always room for improvement. Yeah. Like, you're never perfect. Always a student. That's one of my favorite things is just because, like, you know, you'll see like Bill Berg got off the stage at the comedy store and he, to me, I'm like, he just crushed.

Yeah. But to him, he's like, oh, that one bit like I, I'm not getting it right. You know, there's that criticism. There's like self-criticism of like, no, I need to improve this to really kind of it's always perfecting it. It's kind of never reaching that destination. I think. Well, Dr. Drew did a study many years ago of he, as guests would come in to Loveline,

he gave them like this narcissistic personality test. Because like, it's interesting, like you'd think you'd be able to study narcissism, but most really successful narcissists are obviously inaccessible to like clinical research, right? Most studies are done on like college students for class credit, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was able to give this narcissistic personality test to like all the guests so like a range of celebrities and musicians and then also like reality TV stars and whatever and what I remember from the study is that they found that yeah like most celebrities are at some level of narcissism but it's this interesting question of like are narcissists attracted to celebrity or does celebrity make you narcissistic it's probably a little

both but one of the things they found was that the more technical the thing you did was the less narcissistic you were. So, like, drummers might be very famous because they're in a huge band, but what they do is really fucking hard, and it's, like, a craft that you love. So it's, like, inherently humbling, and it's inherently about, like, solving this, like, puzzle, you know, versus, like, someone who was on the real world Road Rules Challenge is, like, attractive, in good shape, made a good, like, pitch video. Yeah.

And then is maybe, like, dramatic. Mm-hmm. So, like, they're both famous, but one is getting their ass kicked by the craft of the thing. Yeah. And the other one is mostly just thinking about, like, how can I get more on TV? Yeah. It's like the craft itself humbles you. Yeah.

And, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think to just be an actor and then become famous, obviously acting as a craft. But it's not a craft you get as many reps in as other things because it involves other people, right? But stand-up is like a thing you're going and doing every night. And it's whether you're doing it for a thousand people or ten people, it's fucking hard. And you get humbled by the audience too. If you're not improving, if you're not constantly putting your A game forward, the audience will humble you. And I feel like for actors, if you're making your living as an actor, most of the time you're not acting.

Yes, that's what I mean. You're not getting that many reps. Yeah. You're acting, you know, maybe six months out of the year. A lot of time it's just hurry up and wait. You're just sitting on set. Like how many movies is even a great director going to do in their life? Yeah, I mean, five?

Five. You know? Yeah. And a lot of times you're not doing the thing. But you are, if you have succeeded, you're being the person. You're being the noun versus the verb. Right. You're walking around.

You're on panels. You're talking to classes. You know, you're negotiating contracts, but you're not like, fuck, how do we get this shot right? Yeah. You know? It's more people asking you like, how do you come up with that? Yes. How did you come up with that shot?

And you're like, oh, well, you're not. Yeah. I feel lucky because, like, my first book came out and did well. Uh-huh. And then I wrote this, but the stoic stuff that was much more gradual. Mm-hmm. And then I know people who, like, their first book had just, like, crushed. Now you're the person instead of, like, trying to be the person.

You know, I spend a lot of time, a lot more time writing than being the writer. If you, if your first thing just, now you're the guy. Yeah. The person who did the thing. And that I think can be destabilizing and disorienting. When you first started writing about Stoicism, was there like a light bulb moment for you? Well, actually, Dr. Drew introduced me to Stoicism. Really?

You didn't know the story? Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, no. It's ridiculous. I was writing for the college newspaper at Riverside. And I got this call one day. No, I think they put like a slip in my. my mailbox at the paper anyways trojan condoms was sponsoring like a conference of college journalists

they're like do you want to go and i was like fuck yeah you know uh and so i went and he was the speaker and afterwards because i used to listen to love line in my room every every night before bed and i was like hey you seem really smart like what books would you like tell a kid like me to read and he was reading the stoics really that's how i got introduced to it wow um so i i read the So expert, like I read, I was 20, and it sort of blew my mind. I was like, this is what I want to do and I want to write about. And I had a blog, like, I started a blog the day I graduated from high school. So which I just realized is 20 years from, like, tomorrow. Oh, cool. You know what? Like, so I've been doing this. I realize I've been doing this for 20 years now. Yeah, yeah. But that's what I wanted to write about. And then I had this marketing career. And I knew I wanted to write about that, but I understood at some level that no one was going to let a 20-year-old write about ancient philosophy. right so that's why I worked for Robert Green but I knew I had to do the other books first and then I could write about what I wanted to if I had after you have a little bit of heat then people are willing to take a shot on something crazy yeah you worked for what did you do

for Robert Green I was his research assistant oh you were okay for math for the 50th law and mastery and then a little bit on some of the other books yeah he's awesome so I was maybe like 23 or 24 and I wrote this article about stoicism and um this publisher found it, and they were like, we'd like you to do a book about this. And I was like, Robert, like, I have a book deal. What do you think? And he was like, no. And I was like, what do you mean?

He was like, he was like, really blunt. Yeah. It was nice, but he was like, you have to say no to this. He was like, it's too early. You're not qualified to write this book. You'll be a better writer later. And I'm very glad I listened to him. But like, you think you're ready and you're probably not ready.

It's similar in stand up. Like when you start, if you're getting laughs, a lot of times it can be just the, you know, joke structure or whatever. But as you keep doing it, you notice a difference in laps. And it's, you know, when I was like 24, I'm like, oh, I'm going to talk about partying in college. Because, like, you know, and you don't realize at the time that how much life experience informs, like, that your relatability and, like, how much you can connect to an audience. Like, no, like, most audiences, they don't want to hear from, like, a 23-year-old or just got a college. That's exactly what Robert was saying. Yeah.

And, like, you think these people are screwing you over by not giving you shots. Yeah. You know, like, if they would just let me do it, I can do, I'm ready. And they're like, no, wait. And you think you're being like help. Like, I remember on my first book. So I hired a publicist for Trusting and Mlying. I remember it was $20,000.

Mm-hmm. I had to pay $20,000. And they were like, here's what you do. You make a list. The campaign we agreed to is I picked $20,000 and I picked $20,000. And I picked 20 outlets that I wanted to be on. The Daily Show. you know, CNN, like, picked all the things, right?

Yeah. And, like, that's what I was paying. There's obviously no guarantees, but that's, and they got zero of the things. Right. Like, not one of the things. Yeah. I have subsequently checked. I have subsequently gotten almost all the things on that list.

Like, over the next 15 years, I did get all of those outlets. But I thought, like, either they were not doing a good job or, like, these gatekeepers are, like, fucking me over. Yeah. And, like, if I had gotten any of those 20 things the first time, I feel like maybe my whole career would have turned out differently, like, in the negative sense, because I thought I was ready and I wasn't even close to being ready. Yeah. There's a story I actually have in my, in the wisdom book about this, like, samurai master. And the student comes to him and he goes, like, I'd like to become a master, how long will it take? And he says, like, it'll take 10 years.

And he goes, no, no, no, I'm very serious. I'll pay extra. Like, I'll work really hard. How long will it take? And he goes, 15 years. And then he was saying, no, no, no, you don't understand. I don't have that much time. I want to speed the process up.

What do I have to do? And he goes, okay, it'll take 20 years. Right? And like you think you want it to happen sooner or faster and you almost certainly don't. And if you got the opportunities, not only you're not getting screwed over by not getting the opportunities early, you're probably being given a gift. Yeah. we kind of experienced that with

we got a show on Netflix and it was great the whole experience was great and but to me it was like actually I was listening to Ego's enemy a lot during it because I'm like I was like gotta keep the ego in check like don't become like too

and you know it kind of like it was like the dream especially growing up is like if you're a comedian like getting a TV show you're like that's the career maker and to me I was like when this comes out I'll be cruise you're a made man

Exactly. And like a whole experience was awesome and we're really proud of how it came out. But it came out. And next day it was, you know, you're kind of like. And nothing happened. Where's the parade? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I'm saying I'm like, I was miserable for like two weeks where I was like and my fiancee was kind of like, what's your deal? You just expect everything to be easy from that point. And then, but it kind of humbled me in a sense to where I was like, I was like, oh, I just I need to get back to that open. a mic mentality of just getting back to the craft and just putting the work in every day. Like, there's never going to be a moment where you're kind of just on easy street. Yeah, because you think for someone else, you're like, if they would just put this on the homepage of Netflix, it would blow up. Yeah. And then everyone will, and you think that you think that's what you want. Yeah.

I remember once I read this thing from one of the founders of Google where they were saying, like, early on, they knew that the algorithm was getting better every day. Right. And so that actually, understanding that made them not feel anxious or slighted when they weren't getting press. Right. Because they were like every day later the press comes, the better it will convert because the thing is better.

Yeah. Again, I'm like, I'm thinking, hey, I need to be like, this is my first book. It's about this thing. Why am I not on the daily show? Why am I not getting this thing? And it's like, first off, I would have almost certainly been an underwhelming guest because I'm 25 years old. I never.

Like, I think for my first television appearance, I'm going to go into the fucking lion's den of like one of the funny, you know, like, who am I to think I'm going to pull this off, right? And then also, let's say I had, then however many hundreds of thousands of people are watching, some percentage of them are going to buy that book. And you know what they're going to think? This is an okay first book. Right, right, right. Like, I'm much happier that it happened 10 years later. And I had gotten 10 years later. And I had gotten 10. years better at the thing. Obviously, this is contingent on you not quitting or, you know, like, balancing out. Like, you have to have that sort of stick to it, and this. But, yeah, the idea, like, to know, like, no, I'm getting better every day. So actually, like, I don't need the attention right now. I'm just going to keep doing the thing. It's probably a better.

When people go, wait, isn't humility, like, a disadvantage? No, that's actually, it's actually kind of a confidence because you're like, I'm not going anywhere. I'm getting better. I'm just going to do this fucking thing. And like, yeah, if you're like, you get a show on Netflix, you're like, I made it. I'm amazing. That's like as good as you're going to get. But if you're like, and I'm doing stand-up tomorrow, then you're going to be that one rep better plus a TV show. Exactly. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, you think like, I remember I was like, oh, I was like, oh, I'm sure, you know, after this show comes out, we're going to be playing theaters, you know, stand-up, you know. And I'm so glad it didn't turn out that because, like, we didn't

really tour before that. So it, you know, it gave us the opportunity to tour, which is amazing, you know, but it's, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, and you go from, like, stand-up in L.A. to where you're doing, like, 10-minute sets, and, and it, you realize very early on that, like, holding an audience for 30 to 40 minutes is something entirely different. And giving people a show is something entirely different than doing 10 minutes at the improv. I'm so grateful that humbled me in a way to where it's, like, it's like, oh, now I understand how to put on a show. Yeah. Now I understand what I want. I want to, if I go on the road, if I'm playing to a crowd of people, I know what I want to give them.

I, I now have the skills to, you know, give them something to where they leave feeling satisfied. Yeah. And if everything, you'll see that too. People like early on, if like the industry is very hot on them, they're like, you, you're the next Chappelle. Like, it kind of ruins their trajectory. Totally. No, I think one of the blessings and curses of social media is that it, you know, it. can just, it can skip all that.

Mm-hmm. And so if you don't have the goods, you're not going to develop the goods. It's like if you decide to get into sports because you're really tall, or you're just really strong or like, you're not going to develop the technique. You want to be, you want to be genetically gifted, but not so much so that you're used to coasting. Yeah. Right?

And so, yeah, you notice, like, I notice this like with people who, like, they have a big podcast and then like they'll sell a book or like a TV show but it's like it's not that podcasts are easy it's just that you didn't start as a writer yeah and so you just think that because you succeeded over here that transfers over here and it's like no this is a totally different medium and that's it's actually a much more demanding medium because you're doing all the work yeah and so I'll notice it's like oh you have the goods to carry on an hour conversation or even a three-hour conversation. Yeah.

But you can't do a book that might take 20 hours to read. Like, that's so much. Like, that's, it, you just realize, like, people were blessed by the algorithm, but they were also cursed by the algorithm because they're not developing, like, the all-around skills required to succeed in different mediums. Yeah. And you see it, too, like, and people nowadays are, I just keep deciding, like, Bill Byrd and Bargazzi, but, like, they, they were, you know, in their 30s.

Comedy is interesting because it's one of the few that you actually do get the, like, music, it's like, sure, but culture also favors you when you're young. So there's something raw and authentic about it, and then there's an expiration. It's like sports. Yeah. Whereas, like, comedy, oftentimes the biggest comic in the world does have 10, 20, 30 years of experience because it's not as, it's not photogenic. But there's something not like where we, we're more generous with who we allow to succeed in the medium. Yeah. And that's, so it's, that's a, it's a really good example of like, no, no, fucking do your act.

Get really good at it. That's how you succeed, not like these tricks and whatever. I'm being maybe a little bit dismissive of social media too where it's like, you also see people who are like, I see this where like there's people who know more about philosophy or know more about like the technical stuff or maybe they're even better writers. And then and then they think like the social media stuff is easy. Right. Right.

And it's like, I don't think you actually understand how hard it is. take a complex philosophical lesson and make it accessible to millions of people because most people not only aren't interested, they're anti-interested. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not like they were dying. Like people were like, oh, he's a popularizer or something. And it's like, people weren't dying for me to do this. Right.

You know what I mean? Like they had stereotypes, preconceived notions of thought they were not. Like there's a headwind. Yeah. And so, yeah, like that's where ego is the problem. You, like, the Midas touch is a cautionary tale. Like, if you think you have the golden touch, you're going to fuck shit up because you're not going to do the work to be careful about the other thing.

Totally. And it's, there's also conversely with social media, there's people who come along and be like, I know the tricks of the algorithm. Like, here's, like, how, you know, here's how you hook the audience. And so, and then so people who are trying to, like, make it big on social media, they'll, you know, they'll create kind of trash content because they're like, oh, this will get views and that but they're they're garbage views garbage views they might get the views but there's no substance to like whatever following that creates to where there's no actual relationship because

there's nothing there yeah that you're not creating like if you're trying to create fans you're not creating true fandom because it's just uh yeah so i think it's having that realization that in every there's no there's no you know free parking or yeah you know well i bet for you like the viral uh city council meeting stuff probably does the best. Yeah. But like who goes and sees that person in a theater because it's not a city council meeting. Exactly. So you have to, you're like, would I rather have this city council thing do 10 million views? Yeah. Or this like funny sketch or bit that I came up with to a hundred thousand views. One is much smaller, but probably much actually better for you. Yeah. Because the goal isn't just to have a large number of numbers. Yeah. Next year account. It's

to have fans. Yeah, I learned that, too. It's like virality does not translate to, you know, a career in the sense of like, of like, yeah, you need to, yeah, creating a relationship with the fans or like getting that, like people go to see certain comics because they love their stand-up. Yeah. And so it's not like just by being popular. And a lot of times, too, sometimes people will become popular and then they'll get people to

come out. Yeah. But they don't have the goods. and then they just ruin that. Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's like, so it's, it's understanding that there's, you got to work hard at everything. Yes.

And were there any other notable figures in culture kind of talking about philosophy in the way that you were? That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, this was definitely, I started writing in 2000, I mean, I started writing about Stoicism in like 2007 and eight. So like well before even social media and well before. influencers. So that wasn't really the model. That came later. Like in the 80s, there were some authors

that did books about like Machiavelli or did books about Genghis Khan or the Art of War that popularized them like to Wall Street. And I'd read about that. I was like, oh, that's interesting. They were able to like take this thing and make it popular to people who were trying to use it in a different sphere. And then obviously I knew Robert Green and Robert's sort of a model for that too. So I had some sense that you could take something that was esoteric or impractical and make it accessible to people. So I had that. And then I think people always think there's some plan, you know, they're like, you know, like, how'd you know? It's like, I was actually writing about marketing books. And then I wrote about, like, the order didn't exactly happen in the way people

thought it did, right? I was out of a day job, so kind of like, none of it really mattered, you know? But then you add, it wasn't like I was like, okay. I'm going to do this, and then this, and then it'll end here. It's more like, I'm doing this thing that I really like, and then I'm looking at other people. It's like, oh, like, here's, here's Instagram. Well, like, people post quotes. Let's do that.

And then I was like, we noticed, like, for instance, we would post like the quotes and then I'd be like, I have a new book out. And then they'd be like, who are you? Yeah. And it's like, oh, they're following the account for the quotes. Right. I don't know that that's, I'm doing it. And so part of the videos and the.

other stuff came from, like, needing to make the connection between Stoicism and me that's sort of translator, popularizer of it, right? Yeah. It's kind of, you make these individual decisions as you go. And then later, people are like, well, this was obviously the plan. Right. No, I was just going from cool thing to cool thing. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, it's, I remember when I first read that, because when you first came on our podcast, the book was Stillness is the key. And so I read it. And why did you guys even have? I mean, did you know who I was, or was it just, you, like, thought it was a funny pitch? You know, uh, JT's girlfriend at the time? Yeah. My co-host, we got an email, I think, from your publicist.

And, uh, his girlfriend at the time was like, oh, I love his books. You just have him on. Yeah, yeah. And, um, but then I, like, I, I read the book and I studied philosophy and I love it. And so it's just like what I love to read about the most. And I think the way you were able to deliver it in like a way that's just, you know, Sometimes you read these philosophy books, they're so dense. You're like, I was reading like Nietzsche.

I'm like, what is going on? Yeah, exactly. It's like, it takes like so long to get through a page and understand what you're reading. And then you're like, is this actually good or is someone just telling me that it's good? Right. Like, I don't know. Yeah. I even reread Meditations during COVID.

And even that, you know, it's, you really got to take your time. And so it was such a cool thing, you know, stumbling upon your work. Likewise. Yeah, oh, thanks. Yeah, yeah. It was a great meeting at the mind, too. Yeah. You want to go check out some books?

Yeah. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. I don't know.