The Daily Stoic - The Stoic’s Playbook For INSTANT Charisma | Vanessa Van Edwards (PT. 2)

Episode Date: May 31, 2025

The Stoics knew something we often forget: influence starts before you speak. It's in your energy, your posture, your presence. In today’s PT. 2 episode with body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards, she breaks down how to project authentic warmth, gives Ryan tips for navigating social dynamics, and shares how to confidently master the art of saying no.Vanessa Van Edwards is the bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People, translated into 17 languages, and Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. More than 70 million people have watched her on YouTube and seen her viral TEDx London Talk.Vanessa is renowned for teaching science-backed people skills to audiences worldwide, including Harvard, SXSW, MIT, and Stanford. Through her engaging workshops and courses, Vanessa shares tangible skills to improve interpersonal communication and leadership. Her science-backed framework helps anyone communicate with confidence.Check out Vanessa’ work on her website: scienceofpeople.com Follow Vanessa on Instagram and X: @VVanEdwards and on YouTube: @ScienceOfPeople📕 Check out ALL the books Ryan recommended to Vanessa here: https://www.thepaintedporch.com/collections/vanessa-van-edwards-picks📚 Grab signed copies of Vanessa Van Edwards' books Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication and Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People . 🎥 WATCH all The Daily Stoic Podcast interview on The Daily Stoic YouTube channel | https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk,

to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I think it's an interesting question. Can a Stoic be charismatic? Should a Stoic be charismatic? I think the answer is obviously yes.

Would we be talking about the work of these people 2000 years later if the Stoics weren't charismatic, if their message wasn't captivating. Cato wasn't just principled, he also, I think, understood the theatrics of communicating those principles. There's a flourish to it. He might have not liked flashy people, but he was flashy in his own kind of virtuous way.

And most of the Stoics were politicians, they were leaders. Seneca is a playwright who's so famous that a line of one of his plays is, On the Wall in Pompeii. That's someone who knew how to communicate, who knew how to reach people, who understood art. Like we don't often think of charisma and warmth, bubbliness as a Stoic trait, but if Marcus Aurelius was solely a bookish, introverted, boring person, he never would have made it as emperor.

No, he's trained in rhetoric by Fronto. He's trained in philosophy by Roussicus. And these two parts of himself are kind of, not at war, but they actually compliment each other. Cicero was an incredibly charismatic, captivating person. I think, again, Cato was in his own way too. And that's what we're gonna talk about in today's episode. Vanessa Van Edwards,

she's a great YouTube channel called Science of People. She is a charisma expert. She spends a lot of time and has helped millions of people all over the world develop their interpersonal communication, their leadership skills. She has a science-backed framework for communicating with confidence,

being yourself with confidence. And this is not easy to do, it's hard. I've talked about this, it's been a lot of work for me to get there. I'd rather just sit here and just think about things all day, but that's not how you bring an obscure school of ancient philosophy to millions of people.

I don't think I would say this stuff comes naturally to me. I've had to work on it. And Vanessa's work has been influential in that. I've known her for a long time. She now lives in Austin. My wife is friends with her. I don't think her husband came out to the farm once. I don't remember. Anyways, she's great. Her work is great. You can follow her on Instagram, V Van Edwards. Check out her YouTube channel, Science of People. Her first book, Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People is translated into 17 languages. Her new book, Cues, Master the Secret Language

of Charismatic Communication is also great. We have signed copies of both of them at the painted porch. She was nice enough to sign both of them while she was here. Go to her website, Science of People. And then she actually wrote an article called, Can Stoics Be Charismatic for the Daily Stoic? Many years ago, I'll link to that. And then I was on her YouTube channel

and there's this video called Breaks Through the Noise So Your Pitch Gets Heard. So that's obviously more of my earlier line of work, intersecting with her line of work. I think she's great. Check out both of her books and we will talk soon. Enjoy. And this will be up on YouTube if you wanna watch it,

you can sort of see her charisma in action. When I'm backstage about to give a talk, do I wanna be doing more talking talking or you know, do I want to just have a few human moments with a person I'll probably never see ever again in my life. Do you talk backstage? Because I do. Are you like a quiet contemplator? I'd rather be listening to music and just sort of pacing. I realize I need the oxytocin. So I will like go find the AV team. And I'm like, so how was breakfast?

Tell me all about it. Like I think- Not that at all. And I'm actually not extroverted. But I realize I get so in my head that I want the oxytocin. So I will like talk to my Uber driver. I want their life story.

Tell me a joke. Tell me about your insincerity. No, I'm an ambivert. Right. And what's that? So introverts get their energy from being alone. Extroverts get their energy from being with others. Ambiverts can get energy from the right people

at the right times, but need lots of recharge time. So I cannot be alone all the time. No, I do crave people, the right kind of people. Like, this is my favorite. Invite me to a happy hour, no thank you. Yeah. Like, no thank you, cannot do it. It's too loud, I can't have deep conversations, we can't talk about a book.

And so I know that if it's an interview situation or a learning situation, I love it, it gives me energy. But anything else I don't love. On stage, it's very one-sided, right? Yeah. I'm giving a keynote, and I need the oxytocin to not feel like a robot.

Huh. You just need to kind of be- Juiced. Yeah, but be amongst the people. So you're not up there, you know, as this sort of figure pedestal thing. You wanna feel real and accessible and just sort of get in that sort of loose zone.

That's it. And that's, I think it's a chemical cocktail of oxytocin, serotonin, and dopamine for me. And I can't get that pacing and listening to music. I can't get that jumping on a trampoline. I need to laugh with a stranger a little bit to juice that cocktail because in our lab, we studied thousands of hours of TED Talks. And the most popular TED Talkers are the ones who go on stage and act like they're having a coffee with you. Right, it's not a performance. They are authentically, personally themselves,

and they are a master expert at this thing to the point of effortlessness. Effortlessness, and you know they have practiced, but you don't hear it. You don't hear the script, you don't hear the bullets. There's no effort. Like Ken Robinson, the quintessential one. That's one of the greatest ones of all time.

And Brene Brown's original. She comes on Robinson, the quintessential one. That's one of the greatest ones of all time. Right, and Brene Brown's original. She comes on stage mid conversation. Like Ken Robinson tells a joke like he's telling a joke at dinner. So that is the energy that works for me. I think I'm getting loosened up like that. I haven't seen you speak recently, but you can be a little bit.

I'll take the feedback. What can I be? You know, I feel the gap between you and me. I'm a little scared. And I think you would do so well if you're so warm, actually, when I meet you and I've known you for years. I would love to see the friend Ryan on stage. All right.

Interesting. And I don't know how you'd use that for yourself. No, no, there is. I mean, you think about the life of being a performer or speaker is like, I got on a plane alone, I flew to a place alone, I stayed in a hotel room alone, I went to breakfast alone, I worked out alone, then I'm backstage alone, the exception to these people who are going around,

and then you're suddenly in front of a thousand people or whatever. This is my life. And so I could see getting loosened up. I've noticed with myself that I know the differences. When I go watch, I watch recordings of myself and I code them. The recordings of myself where I was that, playing to Uber, to workout, to gym, to dinner,

I am stiffer and remember, competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. Right, or lectured to, or disconnected from. Yeah, I can't relate to this. Sure. And so I think it would be a superpower for you if you could just be you. It is you.

Sure. It's authentically you, but like you as my friend. That's interesting. No, it's funny. One of the weirdest audiences I talked to ever was sort of Ted related. So the NFL had Ted bring Ted to what's called the NFL Owners Meeting.

So it's 32 billionaires, 32 head coaches, and 32 GMs and spouses. Not intimidating at all. And it was at this hotel in Arizona. So it was like five speakers, each doing 10 minutes. I was the last one or the second to last one. Anyways, you know, we're going through the room of show or practice and then you get there and they go,

okay, so you guys will be sitting here, right? Like in the front row. And I was like, absolutely not. I was like, you think I'm gonna sit here for 50 minutes in the audience, watching the other people and then get up and go. I could not fail harder if that's how you set me up. So I was, it was funny though, I, so I was,

they were like, okay, fine, you don't, everyone else says you don't have to. And so I was sort of pacing in the hallway and it was funny to watch these different coaches like come and go from the bathroom or whatever, like during the thing. And I'm like, what's going on in there? But I have a, like a sort of, not a nervous,

but I'm having to get into a wavelength or a vibe that being part of the audience is very much not that vibe for me. But I'm interested about the idea of talking. Like I do like shooting the shit with people as long as it's not like a heavy lift. No, shooting the shit backstage. As long as it's not a heavy lift,

like as long as they're not, so what are you gonna talk about? What do you think about this? No, it can't be that. It has to be chit chat. Funny chit chat. That's why it's like, I find the AV guy, I wanna talk to them and I wanna be like,

so what's been going on? How was your weekend? I like to go, who's the biggest asshole you've had to deal with? I like gossip and stuff. But see, that's so good. Yeah. Like I would like that.

Yeah. Yeah, I like to ask- Who's really high maintenance. Yeah, I love it. Who's the drama queen. Yeah, exactly. I also, I love to ask people, who was the one everyone was talking about last year?

And like, what did you learn from them? Because I'm always like, what is the takeaway that people have? Sure. But I agree with you, sitting in the audience is not my fave. That is not warm. That is not a good cocktail. Yeah the audience is not my fave, that is not good cocktail. That is cortisol and adrenaline, that is not the right one.

And you're also not, you're not chit chatting with people, you're like sitting there thinking about yourself. Yes, yes, that is like the absolute worst thing. It's funny because I think the bigger the audience, the more impressed they are, that word, with how casual you are. Like I just did an arena of 10,000 and it was in the round, which is really challenging

because you lose your slides because they have monitors for you, but you kind of, you lose where you are. Anyway. It was different like logistics that you gotta figure out. Totally, and so I was like, I was listening to the speakers backstage, yeah?

And I could hear them really rehearsed, really, really rehearsed because they had been prepping for this moment. And I was like, no rehearsed, really, really rehearsed, because they had been prepping for this moment. And I was like, no, I'm gonna go on stage and I'm going to pretend in my mind, I am talking to my best friend. And it was one of the best keynotes. And they said to me, come back next year.

And I just went back again. And so I think there is something too, like if you can master the warmth, even in like a very impressive big room, especially in front of a room, it is super power. Of course. Well, I mean, it's like the number one fear is public speaking.

People would rather die. So if you can just show that you're not afraid to go to the point about fear, if you can show you're not afraid, that you don't have to be totally comfortable with yourself, because that can be a little disconcerting, but that you're pretty comfortable. Conversational.

Yeah, that is immediately. Impressive. Impressive and intriguing and charismatic. Oh, this person belongs up there. Yes, there's a difference between presenting and conversation. And I think no one should ever present. No, presenting sucks. Sucks. And I think no one should ever present.

No, presenting sucks. Sucks. But I think that people think that once they're in front of five people, they're presenting. And then it sounds like your brain actually goes onto like autopilot listening mode. It's very hard to grok someone who's like, look, watch, here's me talking in a TED Talk voice, okay? Today, I'm going to speak to you about three different ideas that are going to change your life.

Back in the 1930s, there was like- No, you're in the uncanny valley. You're not actually like an actor who's delivering like a soliloquy. Yeah, and then you're not actually, that's not actually how you would talk. And so it's right in the uncomfortable ground of fake, but trying not to be fake.

We do not like fake. No. Our ears hear it, we see it, even fake smiles. I hate the advice people are like, just smile more. You know about the uncanny valley, right? Yes, but please tell me. I think that's a more common thing than just like video games.

The idea of like, we're really good at discerning things that are not quite real. And now I'm getting, I feel like I'm getting better at noticing what is clearly an AI written email. Like, you know, like I was, I was actually just dealing with this contractor and they were sending me this thing. They're like, our concern is that we will have to move

this wall plus or minus 18 feet. And I was like, done, not working together. You did not write this email because no human would say plus or, and they did it like plus slash minus. I was like, no human would ever say plus or minus 18 feet and no contract, a contractor would be like, I don't know, like 18 feet or something.

Yeah, exactly. So it wasn't even that it was fake. It was like, it was the opposite of how a contractor would be let alone just a human, you know? Totally, yes. And I was like, okay, this person isn't treating this interaction seriously. Okay, so this brings up a good point.

If we're talking about uncanny valley, when I say you should be warmer, I don't mean fake warmth. And that is really important. I do not want anyone to just fake smile. That is the worst thing you could do for likability. When I say warmth, I mean intentional warmth. I mean asking questions, searching for likability, assuming that this could be your next best friend.

That is authentic warmth. And hopefully we'll bring out authentic warmth. So authentic warmth cues, eyebrow raises, nods, head tilts, visible hands, leans, those are all authentic warm things. If I was like, you know, it would look horrible and feel very robotic, but if I'm like, oh, really, you like that?

It's like very easy for me to do it. So we also study this, Dr. Barber Wild asked people to smile for real, think of something that made them happy and smile, take a picture. Then she asked them to fake smile, think of something, nothing, she showed people the picture. A lot of the pictures looked very similar to the for real, think of something that made them happy and smile, take a picture. Then she asked them to fake smile, think of something, nothing. She showed people the picture. A lot of the pictures looked very similar to the naked eye, but when people looked at the happy picture, they caught the happiness. Their mood test, they gave them mood test before and after, they improved their mood. People who looked at the neutral smile had no mood change,

meaning that authentic happiness, authentic warmth is contagious. And so it creates this beautiful like happiness loop. So you have to be the spark of the authentic happiness of finding something that you truly like, but that does not mean fake smiling or faking those warmth cues. It's the intention behind it that actually triggers that spark. Yeah, no, it's, and when you see someone

who can do it well, it's very impressive. Totally. All right, so I have, I got invited to the South by Southwest party tonight. Oh, you're not. That I don't wanna go to. Do you have any suggestions for how to get better at saying no?

Oh, you know what? I thought you were gonna ask me how you could do better at the party, which I can give you both. Oh yeah, let's do both. Okay, okay. Okay, first, yes. If you're gonna say no,

I'm very good at saying no to parties. Never give a reason. Okay. Because people will always either don't like your reason or they argue with it. Yes. So never say like, oh, I'm so sorry.

I have a friend in town. You're saying please argue with me. Yes. Like please convince me. Yes, and also they might think that your reason is insulting. Right. So that's even worse saying no and giving insult. So like, for example, oh, I'm so sorry, my friend's not.

Bring your friend. Friend and you're like, she doesn't like you. Right, like you can't say that. So just say no. So start with gratitude. Thank you so much for thinking of me. Thank you so much for this wonderful invite. Wow, it looks like an amazing party.

Always start with gratitude. Acknowledges it, and then get really quickly to the no with no reasoning or no excuse. No equivocation, yeah. Yeah, so thank you so much for the invite to this party. I'm so sorry I won't be able to make it tonight. That's it. And don't promise anything else and don't create a loop.

Don't create, but maybe next year, rain check. How about next time you're in town? That's like when people tell me they're in Austin, I'm like, fun. Like I don't see people. I see three people that I like. So gratitude and hard end, no loops, no equivocation, no excuse.

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Get started with your free trial at Wondery.com slash plus. Okay. Now if you have to go. Wait, wait. So another strategy. Tell me what you have to go. Wait, wait. So another strategy, tell me what you think of this. Wait till after and then say, sorry, I'm just getting to this now, next time or whatever. I do think sometimes people bend themselves into knots trying to explain why they can't

do something to someone that they don't owe anything to. That's true. Like the example I'm talking about, not the case, but oftentimes I did not solicit this invitation. We are not friends. You know, you are asking something of me. You're trying to get something out of me. I think sometimes people feel like they owe the explanation

or they owe a prompt response. Or a promise. Yeah, you don't know, you don't even owe acknowledgement, I think is, to your friends you do, but to random strangers you do not even owe an acknowledgement. Agreed. I actually would say I don't like the approach of saying, sorry, I just missed this, I would just archive.

Yes, you can just ignore it. You could just ignore. I would rather you ignore than do the after, because why? Or I'm just saying, like sometimes someone will send you a whole email about a bunch of things and then they'll be like, also, a couple of friends are getting together.

I can just be like, I can choose to acknowledge the parts of the thing that I feel comfortable responding to. I can skip over this part. And if they are going to choose to not read that clue or that social cue and decide to go, yes, but are you going to come to my party? You know, if they have sent three invitations and now they're asking me in person, they have chosen to press an awkward conversation

and it's their awkwardness, not mine. Okay, let's go one step further. I believe in radical transparency and I think we're in a world where it is accepted. And if someone doesn't accept it, they're not your person. So actually what I say to people is I don't like people I can't come. Like literally I just say to people, I don't do parties.

Yeah, I don't get on the phone. I don't do coffee. I don't do pick your brains. I don't do it, I'm allergic to those words. I actually have a filter in my inbox that emails that say pick your brain go right to spam. I do not do it. No, it's a fucked up phrase.

Widespread use of that phrase is an indictment of society. I mean, if you send an email and said, hey, can I pick your pocket, right? You would be like, what? But people go, hey, can I, a total stranger, get together with you and get from you ideas or insights that were hard won or expensively learned for nothing in return. And by the way, I'm also asking for the most valuable thing you have, which is your fucking time.

Oh, and also I'm gonna be a competitor to you in three years. That's my goal, because I wanna be you. Yeah, I'm also just pretending to be your friend right now. To be you, exactly. I'm pretending to be you actually. So I think that we're in an age where like, we should just say, I'm so sorry, I'm too introverted to go tonight. Like we can say that.

And so I would like to normalize that. I've started to do it. I also like, I have people who like love to text me. Please don't text me. When I'm away from my computer, I'm with my kids. And I have people who are like work friends, kind of. And so they text and like, I actually said to someone who would send me,

I love you, very long voice notes, which are like violence. You know, like I can do a two minute voice note, cool. But like not an eight minute one. No, what they're saying is, hey, I didn't bother to really think this through and condense it into an actionable or clear way, here is a audio vomit of, you know, my stream of consciousness, make of it what you will. And usually what I'm making of it is, Mark has read. Right, right. Exactly. It's like, if I wanted to listen to you

for eight minutes, I would listen to your podcast. That's how I feel. So I actually said to this person, listen, when I'm on my phone, I'm with my family. If you have questions, please email me. I'm happy to reply over email. And so I think we have to be okay with that. And if someone's offended, that's not your person. Pick the ways that you're comfortable communicating that are most conducive or best for you

and then don't feel guilty about not checking the other things or ignoring them or just saying no or whatever. I stopped doing my DMs because I just like couldn't. Yeah, I have one. I have two inbox. I have my texts and I have my email and then everything else I may occasionally chance to see or someone who does check it might tell me that it's there.

Otherwise you might as well have just shouted it into the void. Who I've known for years, DM'd me something silly because we used to DM because I used to DM. And then my assistant replied and was like, would you like Vanessa's course? And I was like, oh my God. You mean my wife? Yes.

Oh, that's hilarious. I was like, I'm sorry, my assistant didn't know we were friends. Like it just, it's a weird world. Like we're in like a very weird world. And so I think we also have to be aware of all those modes of communication. And if you really love someone, you ask them, what's your preferred mode of communication?

Yes. Okay, so let's say I do decide to break the general rule and I go to the party. How can I be better at it? Okay, first. Where's still tips for being good at a public event or social gathering? Okay, so you should set yourself up for success

and be very purposeful with your energy, okay? So you're not gonna get trapped in the entrance zone. That is the worst place to stand at an event or party and it is the biggest mistake that people make because they wanna get in and out. Right. I see a lot of people who are like, oh, I don't wanna be here.

So when you get in, go in, and then you wanna stand where the best conversations happen. Like I don't like small talk. If I'm gonna be at an event, I wanna have like, I want the full life update, I wanna hear how your book went, I wanna hear where the best conversations happen. Like I don't like small talk. If I'm gonna be at an event, I wanna have like, I want the full life update. I wanna hear how your book went.

I wanna hear all the details. The best place to stand at an event, we actually studied this, we studied maps of social flow, is right as people exit the bar or where the drinks are. Not where the food is, where the drinks are. So where you should plant yourself is go in, get your drink, water or alcohol, whatever you want,

and then stand where that exit is, because here's what happens, like chemically for someone. When we enter our event, our emotions are the highest, we're the most nervous, and we're also overhead gazing. Who's here? Yeah, do I know anyone who's here? It is the worst way to make a conversation. You're gonna have really short, stilted conversations

and be offended by their overhead gazing. When someone got their drink, they surveyed, they've settled and they are desperate for you. So you become a social savior when you stand right there, because what happens is they turn, even if you're alone, they turn to face to room and you go, hey, so what are you drinking? What brings you here tonight?

You excited to hear the speaker and you're in it. It's like super easy. And they're dedicated to that conversation with you. And then if you're done, like you don't wanna have the conversation, it's very easy to say And they're dedicated to that conversation with you. And then if you're done, like you don't wanna have the conversation, it's very easy to say, I'm gonna go grab some food,

I'm gonna grab another drink. It's a real easy exit. That's the place to be for those deep conversations. Sure. Yeah, I also think like I went to someone's book event recently and it was like, I was thinking about when I was gonna go. And I realized, hey,

if I get there 10 minutes before it starts, 20 minutes before it starts, I can have five or 10 minutes with this person, and then I can leave in the middle of it. They'll have appreciated that I came, but they'll be well into the energy and the success of the event. They won't notice that I'm there. But if I get there right when it starts,

or even if I get there late, I gotta stay to the end to make the same level of impression. And by the way, they'll be exhausted. Or you can say that the other version of this is like, hey, I'll meet you after. What time do you think you'll be done? Let's get a drink or have dinner. Let's do something.

And you kind of, I think if you're sort of reluctant to have social encounter, how do you find the most bang for your buck in the situation as opposed to just sort of doing unthinkingly what everyone else is? Yes, like finding your pockets. So like, for example, that's such a good tip, getting there early I think is the win for introverts actually.

Also, I will often ask women, do you wanna get ready together? Like that's a very easy way to get like 30 minutes of deep talk and you can actually knock on the event. Let's drive together. So like there's been people who people who I really wanna catch up with and I'll even Uber to like there wherever they're staying and we will Uber together for like that time.

And then it's great because you knew they would have been in that ride alone. So you can also be very creative with that. There's a story that I tell in queues it was really inspiring to me of social strengths. Everyone has different social strengths and social weaknesses. It's very important to know which ones you have.

I think this is a very stoic thing is to like not try to use a weakness if it's not your weakness. So Harry S. Truman, former president, he was not a good public speaker, which is very unique for a president. And so he was at the Democratic National Convention in 1944 and he was very low on the list.

People did not think that he was going to make it. And he saw that where everyone was battling was in the same place, was the main stage. Everyone would get up and they'd give speech after speech after speech after speech. He knew he would not be able to compete on that stage because he was not a good presenter. So instead, it was really hot in Chicago that year.

He found the one air-conditioned room in the entire convention center in the basement. And one by one, he invited the delegates down, one by one, two by two, just chat. Yeah. And one by one, they'd sit in that air conditioned basement room with him and they talked to him and he just talked to them and his social strength

was one to one talking and it was so cool in that room that no one was excited to leave. And so one by one and literally every vote, you can watch his votes go up. Interesting. As he brought delegates down watch his votes go up. Interesting. As he brought delegates down, because they would go up and be like, you know what, I just talked to Harry.

He's great. He's like really warm. Right, right, having one, again, where's the bang for your buck instead of just sort of being part of the, the sort of general... Competing in the Red Ocean. Right, like that was the Red Ocean.

It was bloody and it wasn't his strength. And warmth, it's really hard it wasn't his strength and warmth. It's really hard to be warm on stage. Well, I guess it's like what makes the, also what makes the impression, right? And so like I was just, I just had to go to like a gala for my son's school. Oh, those are fun.

It was like, okay, it starts at five and it goes to like 10. It's like, I don't want to spend five hours with a thing. But it's like, we went right when it started and then we bid on a couple of things at the sort of silent auction, and then we had the sale and then we left. But it was like, I was there, I was seen, and then I have proof that I was there

because I bought something from the auction, right? So somebody had to follow up with me and thank me, whatever. I did, meanwhile, if I, you know, we'd been slow getting ready, whatever, we're sitting at the table, they might be like, I didn't see you, because you're just, you're,

now everyone is there at the same time, sitting in their seats. And by the way, the people who are putting on the event are busy putting on the event. Yeah, they don't notice. And so they don't know, you know, you didn't actually make the impression. And so thinking about, hey, what makes the impression

that you're comfortable making? And then I'm a big believer in going out on top, you know, like going out after you've made said impression, not lingering if you don't go do something you wanna do. Absolutely. By the way, you might've missed the best part of the auction. At our gala, we had cowboy auctioneers. What is that? Oh, like a cowboy, like a...

I've been to a cattle auction. But it was for school. That's fun, yeah. At ours, and they have champagne bottles, they walk in and they spray the whole table. cowboy like I've been to a cattle auction. But it was for school. That's fun, yeah. At ours, and they have champagne bottles, they walk in and they spray the whole table. It was nuts, I was like, is this what they do in Texas? Like I'm from California, so I was like,

this is the craziest school gala I've ever been to. So you might've missed a cowboy auction for your kids. Yeah, yeah, I guess. I got the thing. You'll be okay. You'll be okay that you missed it. Have you read much about Truman? I read his memoir or his autobiography, biography, McCullough.

The McCullough, I was just gonna say. It's like song autobiography, McCullough. I love it. I'm a memoir person. Okay, so we'll go talk about books, but the best Truman book, the one you need to read, is it's called Plain Speaking. It's an oral history of Truman, including,

so Truman sat for like 30 hours of interviews and then all of his cabinet members and friends. And it's very hard to get. And then since I've talked about it, it's now like hundreds of dollars on Amazon. But it's one of the best presidential books I've ever read. It's incredible.

Okay, I cannot wait to read it. Because I love the McCulloch, obviously I quoted it. Yes. Oh, wow, that's really good. I just finished reading a book that had all the tapes that were released from Nixon during the Civil Rights Movement. And it was the changing conversations

of the Civil Rights Movement. And you can see when they call Martin Luther King and they're trying to debate, it is an incredible book. Because my next book is about conversation. And so I'm looking for pivotal conversations. OK. What changes someone's mind in a conversation?

And so in the civil rights movement, you can literally see all the way through the 50s as these conversations are happening, and they're recorded. I talk in the Courage book, when JFK calls Coretta Scott King while her husband is in jail, that is what basically pivots the black vote from Republican to Democrat. And that's what convinces Martin Luther King to vote for John F. Kennedy.

And the whole election is decided by like 50,000 people. It's one conversation. One conversation. That, is it Sergeant Shriver? One of the Shriver's convinces, one of the Shriver's has a hard conversation with Kennedy who then has a hard conversation with Kennedy, who then has a hard conversation with Coretta Scott King. And that is what pivots the

presidential election. Yeah, there's some other juicy stuff in the Nixon era. There's some really juicy stuff. The interesting thing is Nixon, he refuses to, Nixon is friends with King, but he's like, I don't want to get involved. And he fails to have the conversation and it probably cost him the presidential election. Costs him a lot. Yeah. In my opinion. But also, yes. So I think that like, I don't want to get involved. And he fails to have the conversation and it probably cost him the presidential election. Costs him a lot in my opinion.

But also, yes. So I think that like, there's so many good, the oral histories are like it. Now that we're getting more and more tapes and they're being analyzed, so much juicy goodness. All right, well, let's go next story. Okay. Every successful business starts with an idea, and on the best idea yet, we're obsessed

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that made Birkenstock the best selling sandals since Jesus. And made Super Mario the most played video game in the history of attention span. Nintendo almost became a ramen company until Super Mario saved it. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Follow the best idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

And if this podcast lasts longer than 45 minutes, call your doctor. Do you have any book presentations? Yeah. I love memoirs. Love memoirs. I love historical fiction. I love funny books of any kind. I love funny books.

I love satire. I love dark humor. I love historical fiction. I love Devil in the White City. Yeah. That kind of book. I love reading. But that's not fiction. Historical fiction love Devil in the White City. Like that kind of book I love. I love reading it. But that's not fiction.

Historical fiction? Devil in the White City. Devil in the White City. That's not... It's non-fiction. Yeah, but it's like... It's a story. I mean, yeah.

It's narrative non-fiction. It's narrative non-fiction. I also am reading Barbara Streisand's memoir right now. Oh, that's fun. Guys, look, it's 49 hours on a wall, okay? It's 49 hours. Itudible, okay? 49 hours. It's a commitment. It's a commitment.

But I'm super inspired. I'm 23 hours in. And I like, I'm super inspired by it. Our eight year old is obsessed with Hamilton and we are six hours into a 36 hour film with an audio book. Good luck. I also just finished Barbara Walters' memoir and I loved it because it was such a unique perspective on history.

It was so unique. I think Chelsea grabbed that one. I knew you recommended that one. and I loved it because it was such a unique perspective on history. It was so unique. I think Chelsea grabbed that one. How many recommended that one? It's so good because it's like she's doing the interviews during history. So I have heard all these historical events, but never her perspective.

Right, right. And she's very insulting. So it's very funny. Yeah, yeah. Like she'll be like, oh yeah, in a horrible handshake, really short, not that handsome. Like it's amazing. Like she's so insulting.

It's incredible. If we're doing narrative not pictures, would you say tunnel 29's there? Well, yeah, but that's not like fun or funny, but I also can do serious. But if she said she likes them all the way to the, well, Eric Larson, have you read this blend in the vile? Is that Eric Larson?

I don't think I've read that one yet. That's about the blitz. That one's very good. The tunnel 29 is incredible. I'll do that. Yeah. What kind of a horse do I like? The more variety, the better.

So like from Barber's Dry Zans to, yeah, Matthew McConaughey read his amazing So Funny to Truman, like the more weird, the better. I love them all. These are like our favorites. You might like. I haven't read some of these, so these I would be proud to.

Clementine Churchill, you read about her? No, but I would like that a lot. I like that a lot. I feel like I learned more about Churchill from reading this book than Ryan did about reading every book on Churchill. Okay, that I definitely. Oh, and she's doing a book on conversations.

So books about interesting conversations. Yes, I need pivotal conversations. Like people who have like shepherded important conversations that changed history or changed perspective. Can it have gone poorly? Yes, absolutely. All right, so this is-

It's gone poorly. Okay, good. It goes bad, right? Jesus says, I am truth. And then Pontius Pilate says, that's truth. And then he walks out of the room. So like I am fascinated by the fundamental lack of curiosity. Okay, good. That one's good.

Thank you. She would like to have a shot. Oh, I like AJ Jacobs a lot. I've read almost all of his books. I've read Know It All. I've known him forever. He's funny. I like like witty. Yeah, absurd. I love it. I love books about experiments. Like that are someone's like trying an experiment for 50 days.. I love books about experiments. Like that are someone like trying an experiment for 50 days. I love Bill Bryson. It's funny. So all of your Jacob's books basically. All of your Jacob's books.

All Bill Bryson's. I already- Yeah, do Tarot Charms. I don't know that one. How old are your kids? Two and six. Okay, then read Tarot Charms. It's like extremely cute and fun.

It's about this little- Yeah, like this is a favorite. She's basically like the Oprah of Japan. Like this book sold millions and millions of copies in Japan. Okay. It's not very well known here. It's amazing. I love it. My two favorite. Like I haven't read this yet. Is that what I was going to tell you? These are my two favorites. Okay. Okay. Okay. Give me your favorite memoirs. I read open. Yeah, it's really good, it's really good, yeah. I also just finished like David Goggins book which was intense. Have you finished that one, read that one?

I wouldn't say it's a favorite, but boys against bad men. I was like, this is intense. I've read Sharon's, uh, Ming-Lan's book. Oh yeah, you know Sharon says so on Instagram? Like this, like this, weren't my favorites, but it's still good Oh, I went I went from David Goggins to Barbara Streisand. There is no bigger jump. Why is no bigger job? I don't know my and then my favorite narrative nonfiction or tunnel 29 This one which is about

Yeah, oh Mary Roach is funny. I like Mary Roach all Mary Roach. Okay, I read that one all the nerds It's like those weird weird funny. It's like sticky. Yes, like weird funny. Oh, so you have my favorite Yeah, these two are I love art. Did you know everyone talks about this? Did you read it? No, it's okay Yes, I like I'm like the read it read this Clementine Churchill one first, because she's the same person. And if you like her, then you read that. OK, OK, OK. Everyone was talking about that one. I read this one.

I read a couple of books. OK, OK. She's like a real spot. It's like James Bond, but cooler. So it's really cool. And she only has one leg. And she only has one leg. And it's not only with one leg.

Like a theme of the book at all. It's just every once in a while she'll mention. She'll be like, I'm sorry. Am I like? Am I like? So sometimes the books are too talked about. I'm like, not for me. I know, I know.

Not for me. I call them like Costco books. Yes. Like books that they've made into Costco books. I don't want to hear that you've read this memoir. I don't want to have heard about it. No one's talking about the Barbra's. That's why I decided to do a Barbra one.

I'm not going to read that one, no. It's a good one. I guess you've probably heard about this one, though. Yeah, but yeah, the cover turns you off. It's not a You've probably heard about this one though. Yeah, but yeah, the cover turns you off. It's not a good cover at all. It should be the picture of the room where you hid all the paintings.

Yes, covers are so important to me. Like they shouldn't be, but they are. It looks very good. Okay. Because it's like a, I've put it on your list, because it's like a, let's get it. It's like a, I'm trying to think of a good way to describe it. It's like a... I'm trying to think of a good way to describe it. It doesn't feel like it's real.

There's like no way. And every time you're like, who is the villain in this story? And you would not expect that. See, that's what I liked about this book. I have also a question for you guys. Very important. So my ridiculous face has been on the cover of both of my books. And that was not my first choice. So my ridiculous face has been on the cover of both of my books.

And that was not my first choice. My third book. Do you think it's better to have your face in your book or not good to have your face in your book? For my genre. For your genre? Yeah. Okay.

This is gonna be so... I'm worried that it's... It's on conversations. I don't know. We have... My next was called Conversations. Okay. Captive AQ's Conversation. And so I'm like that it's on conversations. I don't know we have a minute. So it's called conversation I mean it captivate cues conversation and so I'm like me talking to myself. Look I don't what do you want for me? They just like me Got the cut the faces on the books are hard, but it is also like a

Who are you trying to appeal to are you trying is it your audience that you're selling the book to yeah? And they like your face. I mean, I guess they like Who are you trying to appeal to? Are you trying, is it your audience that you're selling the book to? Yeah. And they like your face? I mean, I guess they like my face. I don't know. I like your face. My face keeps getting older is the thing. And so I'm like, at what point am I gonna

have to redo these covers? Cause we're in a decade for Captivate. A decade. The 10 year anniversary. So I'm just like, yeah, I'm like, me at 40, me at 50, me at 60. So strong opinions about my face. I would stay on the cover you would pull it off

It's better for me. I think you I don't I think it it could if I just did this Just like really serious super intense. Oh, did you read stiff Mary Roach's book? Yes, yes, yes one all the living in the dead So stiff is about like what happens to your body when you die or that yeah all the living the dead is about the people Who interact with the dead bodies. But if I've already read stiff, is it going to be boring? No, because it's almost like you're seeing once death happens to the physical being and then it's the mental toll on the people who interact with dead bodies.

The person who's pushing the bodies into the cream of the cream. I don't know if I can commit. It is. Because this actually made me very nauseous. Oh really? Then that's good. I got a little if I can commit. It is. Cause this actually made me very nauseous. Oh really? Then that. I got a little sick to my stomach when I was reading it. That is very like all of living the dead is very like,

I don't know. It's very like, if you have death on your brain all the time because you're interacting with dead bodies. Like what does it do to you? Do you? I don't. Always. Foundation of Steel is the foundation.

It's like what do you mean? Okay. I do, I do. I'm very neurotic. I do think about death a lot. Is this good? Is this one good? Everyone talks about it. Yeah talk about it. Yes, everyone talks about it. I should get it This is one of those books where I'm like, well everyone likes it. Am I gonna like it? Um, have you and then this is because because of the ranch

Ooh a favorite Texas fuck Show me. Really? Okay, great. You know that I buy books for all my properties. I'm not testing. This is when you need that. So maybe I should get a couple of copies for each place, huh? Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Right, because then I can put them at each house. Yes. Oh, and then I think I bet the place you are looking at is from here. I just got my husband his book. The best Texas book is Lone Star. Here by T.R. Fermin. I think he might have read that on Kindle.

This is, that's our house. This one's for Sam also. Look at this one. Yeah, it's cool. That was the military institute. Yes, it's beautiful inside. The details are amazing, but in the sleeper, we like a lot of head count.

I'm sure they have them on the shelf. I'm sure it's in there. Super pedicators? Don't even, I don't, mm-mm. Are you gonna bite? Yeah, we're gonna fight about that book. I have beef about that book. Tell me. Oh, I think it is It is not good advice to tell someone to ask when was the last time you cry What a horrible piece of advice. I think you're right. Okay, there's a lot of nuance that's missing in

I just think like for if you're an awkward person like me and you're like, oh this is with this super commander there Right, and then you go to someone and you say When was the last time you cried they're like, who are you? Yeah, yeah Okay, you're right. Or they give you something very dark and you don't know how to handle it. That's interesting I think it's like way... it's like giving someone a loaded gun when they've never held a gun Right when there should be some more nuance with the book. I think if you're at a place where you understand human communication, then maybe. It's for advanced.

It is a little bit advanced. I actually had this part too that I had to do. I think it was, he was a coach and he was saying, it was good for him to read but it's not a book that he would recommend to people he was coaching. That's how I feel. He's like a basketball coach. He's like, I now understand how I can relate better to these kids who I'm coaching, but no. But no, I really like it because I think

that I naturally do a lot of the things that he talks about in that book. Yes, I think that's true. Showing some of the vulnerability to receive. But like it's quite, I don't mind going advanced. I don't mind that. What I don't like is giving someone a tool that actually could make them more awkward

and shut down even more. And if you ask that question to your boss on the wrong day, it's actually bad for your career. What I don't like is giving someone a tool that actually could make them more awkward and shut down even more. And if you ask that question to your boss on the wrong day, it's actually bad for your career. Actively bad for you. I also would not, there's maybe two people in my life who I'd be okay with asking that question to. Otherwise, I'm really uncomfortable.

If you were to ask me that right now, I'd give you an answer and I'd be so mad. I'd be so mad that you asked that question. And then I would be like, I'd give you an answer. I'd be so mad. Right. I'd be so mad that you asked that question. And then you'd be like, how do you handle it? And then you're like, now I'm having to divulge a part of myself. Or what if you tell me something super deep and I'm like, I don't know what to do. You don't know how to handle it. That's so interesting.

So I think that's dangerous advice. It is. I think it's something that comes now. Did you read it? No. I think it's something that comes. Maybe. Do you want to see the place?

Do you want me to hold it? Yes. Here, I's because it comes maybe because it's something. Do you want to see the place? Oh, do you want me to hold the place? Yes. Here, I'll just come in. Yeah, oh my gosh. Why are you holding it? For each of our houses. Okay.

We have like our ranches and then we rent them. So I want to get them all. Because the visit's expensive. Oh my gosh. There you go. I'm like, okay, you got it? You want to hold my copy? No, I got it.

You're going to come up with this, Sam? This is the back side. Hi. This is like the sign box and other stuff to film in. Scott Galloway's coming. Yes, I heard Scott Galloway's coming later. I love this one.

It's really good. I haven't read some of these other, but this is lovely. I'll show you some. You guys are eating way too many gumballs. This is insane. Somebody's like, oh no. Oh no. This is like hundreds of gumballs.

I'm not mad. You're just gonna get sick. Was the shelf your idea, the hidden shelf? Long standing fantasy for both of us. Oh, okay. I love when you can fulfill a fantasy. So that was a record store and then we merged it in. Yes, I think when I first came it wasn't even set up yet. Yeah, but only downstairs, not one up here.

This is my office. Do you, so in my office the books I have behind me are ones I reference a lot. They're not ones I'm like proud of, they're just ones that that I'm constantly grabbing at the moment and I rotate them all the time. So this is philosophy. These are mostly biographies. On the shelf is random books, all fictions that are house. And then these are more like books that I read recently that I have not quite figured out where to process.

Yes. And then these are books that have to process. So this is more these are like, yeah, these are books that have to process. And so this is more just like random, or sometimes these are like signed books or books. Yes, you might rotate behind me, because I'm like always like in the middle of processing them or I'm like coding from them. Why, what happens is I set up a system and then.

You're like, I see the system in, I can see it. Yes. I see what's happening. I see what's happening. This is, okay, this is, well, so this is, so I wrote a lot about Truman in the Justice. Yeah, the Justice book Yeah, so anyways, these are these are some of the books. Yes, I could see that that pile makes sense to me Yeah, like there's a Queen Elizabeth. This is like the Elizabeth pile Or oh, sometimes they're gonna go together. That's a great book. Yeah, I just finished but this is okay. This is planes

Sometimes they're gonna go together. That's a great book. Yeah, it's a great book. I just finished it. But this is, okay, this is plain spooky. Aha. Okay, okay, so I'll have to get the copy. Okay, so like this is, when I like a book, these are, I fold the pages.

I use tabs. So you can see I took a few notes. This book is incredible. But see, I can't do that with my books because then I don't know what I liked on that page. So I use color-coded tabs. Oh, you're writing it. Yeah, yeah, because a lot of times I'm marking some depends

But then it's so personal. Yeah. Yeah, of course, but this is like You know, I'll say what I wanted to use it for so I can remember I use like color-coded sticky tabs like blue is for like a science study Yellow is for like it inspired me pink is like a case study or an example and that way when I'm like processing It's like easier for me to get it. Most of mine you can see like, oh, I stole one of my kids' crayons. This is about assertiveness.

What? This is about assertiveness. Yeah. Terry, I did two kids' books and her husband did all the illustrations. Oh yes. Yes. Oh, so speaking of Truman and saying no, Um, this is, yes. Oh, so speaking of Truman and saying no,

okay, these are my Truman no reminders. Okay, so this is post presidency. Thank you for this letter, but I regret that I cannot comply with your request as long been my policy not to respond to questions. That's it, he did it. Yes. He totally did it.

And then this one, this is, okay. So since this is a real inter-office member, since the president will be out of office when the celebration will be held, how do you think we should answer it? Should we say that because of many similar requests, the president must ask to be excused? And then the proper response was underlined, HST.

Wow. Now I'm a little upset because the person I sent to get this framed had it framed impossibly stupidly big, which bothers me. But uh. You could get it reframed. Yeah, but now it's already framed. If it really bothers you, but if it really bothers you, like let's remove that nail from

your head. Yeah, that's true. Like I will happily coordinate that getting reframed for you. I think it just increases the chances that, I don't know how much you're supposed to be touching the stuff. No, that's true, not at all. So. Okay, that is so cool. I also think it's funny that you want this inspiration here

because you're asked stuff all the time. Yeah, so these are kind of like reminders. So then these are pictures of my kids. Of course. And then, no, so they're all supposed to be related. Okay, so when I find no stuff, I'm gonna send it to you to put on the no wall. I actually have one more true one, I think.

I like it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, I don't know what this is. Oh, anyway, that's fine. This one is truly true one I think. I like it. Wait, wait, wait, I don't know what this is. Oh, anyway, that's fine. This one is truly too, I think. It's so funny, you have inspiration all over your office of nos. I have inspiration all over my office of kill'em with kindness.

So I'm not a jerk. These are less kind. Your question will be answered in the book I'm getting ready to publish. So my aunt gave that to me. So good. So good. Great, that the book I'm getting ready to publish. So my adder gave that to me. So good. Great. That's what I'm doing.

That is so good. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to send you no stuff. Yeah, of course. No, I like any reminder. Wait, this is a little color coding, which I know that you're against. Yeah, I am against it, but when we were setting up the office, we were going to shoot here. This was going to be where we did this.

Because you told me that. Yeah, this is where we're going to up the office. We were gonna shoot here. This was gonna be where we did this. Because you told me that, yeah. Yeah, this is where we're gonna do the shooting. So when they organized, when they were set, they were unboxing all the books. I was like, take all the philosophy ones and put them in here and then color-code it. But you can see I am hard at work at uncolor-coding them when I put stuff away.

It's okay, I appreciate both. I don't have a hard feeling about it either way. Oh, I just actually got, I just bought this letter rare books. This is like a collection of Truman's. I just got a Dale Carnegie originally signed How to Win Friends and Influence People and I was real excited about it. I'll use for $1.

Here you go. $1. So anyways, yeah, I'm working to undo the colors. Without having to actually shuffle them around. Because then what happens is I have a vague sense of where everything is because it's been here long enough. Totally. Do you have a strong preference on yellow or green

for my next book? Because I did red, blue, and I'm thinking about yellow or green. I would put them side by side and see how it goes. How they line up, yeah, because they're supposed to be a triplet, you know. Yeah. Are you gonna do a box set?

I don't know. I did a box,, a post box set. I'm considering it, because they're gonna look good together. But then again, it's a book about conversation and I'm just gonna talk to myself on the cover, like what's gonna be. I'm actually thinking about maybe doing an homage

to Barbara Walters' cover of her book, because she wrote a book in the 70s, it was a bestseller, called How to Talk to Practically Anyone About Anything, and everyone's forgotten it. Sure. And her cover was kind of great. I like the old sort of forgotten books.

I love the old books. I'm barely sure if this was like a 70s inspired cover. Yeah, I think mine might be 70s inspired. And I just did this book for George Ravling and we kind of did like an old school style. Yeah, that's cool. I saw your stuff on Instagram with him. It's so great. So great. Yeah, that's cool. So I'm like with Santa with him. It's so great. So great. That's

cool. So I mean, we'll talk about a conversation. If you see that movie air, it totally blows what actually happened. But Raveling is the one who got Jordan to go tonight. Is it in the, is it in your book? It's in the book, but it's, it's also very, it's, he talks about it there, but it's a been covered by lots of, because it's, I mean, it's a billion-dollar decision. This, because Raveling was his coach on, one of the assistant coaches on the Olympic team, and Jordan was very sure he was going to go with Adidas, and a series of conversations, but not hard conversations. It was mostly, I should give him another chance. It was

a very soft sell, and that's what gives Nike the second chance And that's how they I mean Yeah, there's some in the book and then you talked about him on podcast before I'll get it went so when Jordan when they made the movie air Jordan had two requests one was that Violet Davis plays his mom and then to that George Ravling Be written into the script because they'd given him short shrift.

Okay, I cannot wait. Another memoir is Viola Davis. Oh, I remember. It's so moving and so hard to read and so impressive and her stories are incredible. Love that memoir. I'd also finished Tiffany Haddish, which I like wouldn't necessarily recommend,

but that was funny. I mean, Viola Davis for sure, Tiffany Haddish, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but that was funny. I mean, Boyle Davis for sure, Tiffany Haddish is. If you want a crazy read, just blow your mind crazy, it would be that one. All right. What? Yeah, it's so good. What music Barbara Streisand, right?

Barbara Walters is a new view on history. Barbara Streisand, it's only if you like music. I like music and fashion. She was very into fashion. She talks about all of her fashion choices. I thought that the music and the fashion music and fashion. She was very into fashion. She talks about all of her fashion choices. I thought that the music and the fashion was very interesting. You know Josh Bolland's dad is married to a barbershop, I said? Yes. How weird would that be? How weird would that be? What was that? Some random one that I really liked and it got me injury

in my mouth. It was like Jessica Simpson's memoir. So good. Why is it so good? It was so good. Yes. No, it's so good. Underrated. Agreed. Agreed. I also did, this is outrageous and embarrassing, I did read Britney Spears memoir and then Jamie Lynn Spears memoir to see who was telling the truth. I did do that. Can we all admit that maybe we overreacted and she probably should be? No comment. What do you feel like? Did you, what did you think when you read them together? I mean, they have like some different versions of the same thing. I think I might believe Jamie Lynn on some of them. Some of them I think were easier.

Do you think Brittany wrote a more? I think she wrote it with clap. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, would you tell us about yourself

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