The Daily Stoic - Whitney Cummings on Finding Inspiration and Being Relentlessly Present (Pt 2)

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

On today’s episode of the Daily Stoic podcast Ryan speaks with Whitney Cummings, comedian, actress, writer, producer, director, entrepreneur, and host of the hit podcast “Good for You". In part 2 of 2 they discuss having no sense of what life is because you’re not living one, discipline is really important in the beginning but it’s important to know when to update, Rerouting addictive behavior and her latest uncensored stand-up special "MOUTHY" on Only Fans TV (OFTV).IG, X, and Tiktok: @WhitneyCummingsTo follow her on OnlyFans @Whitney✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I told this story before, but the first Airbnb I stayed in was 15 years ago. I was looking for places to live when I wanted to be a writer and we stayed at this house, I think outside Phoenix. And then when I bought my first house here in Austin, I would rent it out when South by Southwest or F-1 or all these events. My wife and I would go out of town and we'd rent it and it helped pay for the mortgage and it supported me while I was a writer. You've probably had the same experience.

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$20 or more using the code DailyStoic20. Again, sign up for your free trial by downloading the Coho app and receive 20 bucks off when you make your first purchase of $20 or more using the code DailyStowic20. Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their

actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message, one of our sponsors. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background cities, all this stuff going on. Well, add on top of this, actually something that I talked about at the beginning of that episode also, when I had Whitney Cummings on, we were talking about how hard it is to surface for help, to put your health first and say, hey, I need this, hey, I can't do this. Well, you add into that crazy week, I had terrible food poisoning. We took my son out to this dinner for his birthday, and I don't know what I got, but it was brutal. And it coincided with, birthday party for him, it coincided with all these talks, and I could like not even get out of bed.

I was losing my mind, it was brutal. And so many was, I messaged Whitney because we were just talking about it, and I was like, would, it was brutal. And so many of us, I messaged Whitney because we were just talking about it. And I was like, would you do this talk? Would you do this gig if you were in my shoes? And we sort of were, we talked about it. I ended up being able to take care of myself long enough that I could get like sort of a window,

that I could do it. And then there's this thing called stage medicine, which is basically how when you got to get up in front of an audience, your body sort of magically heals itself. So I got through that and just barely made through all of it. And then now I'm on the other side and feel great. Now, and I told you as I was starting the first half of this two-parter with Whitney, that I was going to try to watch Whitney's special. I had me got to do it. I was going to watch between the two episodes. And dude, it is so good. One of the best comedy specials I've seen all year,

I've seen all of Whitney's stuff, and I was telling her after I watched it, that I think this is a cut above. She did a really small special at the comedy store that shot really intimate. You can stream it for free on OnlyFans TV, which is crazy. And cool of her to do. So it's totally free. You don't even have to subscribe to any of the streamers. It's a safer work platform. So don't let the OnlyFans name

shotgun. But the special is so good. It's her at her absolute best. And first off, that she did it seven months pregnant is crazy. And only heightens like what she pulls off here. But the other part of it is she was saying, you know, comedians do their specials as away games, right? They pick a theater somewhere else, they go perform there. It's not like on home turf. It's not comfortable. And she just decided she was going to do it easy. She was gonna do it at the club she performs at all the time. And you can totally feel, I mean, she's totally at ease.

She commands the stage. It's just an awesome special. So check out her new special, Malfi, which to pull full circle, she's also losing her voice at the beginning of the special and pushes through, gets something awesome. So I really like this special. I loved having her on the podcast.

I think you probably, you almost certainly enjoyed part one of the episode. And if you did, you're really gonna like part two because we get into it even more. This is my conversation with the one in Only Whitney Cummings. And you can check out her new special for free on OnlyFans TV.

It's called Malfi and it's just awesome. So thanks to Whitney for coming on and enjoy. You have this sense of what you're like saving for or earning for whatever and then that number changes and so you have to, like, but I was trying, I've been trying to adjust and not like, if my sense of money or my time value is the same as it was when I was earning X. And now you're earning five X. If you haven't adjusted that, what was the point of making five X more? and also knowing like avoiding crisis? So I think it's like you know for artists for like Avoiding a crisis because crazy crises are for a year

So I remember a girlfriend of mine said because I was like I got a savings account And I have seven hundred dollars in my savings account and like what should we do for like what vacation should we go on? And she went no no savings isn't for fun. Yeah. It's for cavities. Yeah. It's for like surprise dental stuff. It's for someone to hit your car.

And I was like, oh, you know? Yeah. I found like, the other thing I found though that I was doing is in a wealth person pointing this out to me too. They were like, I was like, well, I need this in case of like it all those away. I'm doing this in case like the book sales stopped. I was only planning for things to get worse.

Interesting. And he was like, but also your books could sell more copies. Like there was no version in which I was imagining the trajectory continuing. And as you, the more you write, the better you get. Of course. How does this,

and financially, we know that actually returns compound. So like, if you're half smart and like half discipline with your money, you should expect that what you saved is worth a lot, 10 years from now, or 20 years from now, or 30 years from now, right? But so, but I was only planning for some world in which I was prepared for everything to go away. Not like, I think a normal person has a job and they go, I'm earning this. If I continue to earn this for this period of time, this is where I can plan my trajectory. But as an artist, there's so much, there's the feast or famine and then the not wanting to be the person who thinks it's going to go on

forever and then it doesn't. That's interesting. But there's also a world where you're good at what you do and your skills are valuable. But then. And you should be able to continue to count on yourself doing the thing. And so it's a tension between feeling like you're entitled to everything and also that you're a piece of shit who's not going to make it. But then it's also, I think, feeling like you're entitled to everything and also that you're a piece of shit who's not gonna make it. But then it's also, I think, again, going back to the picking the person you look to. So if you pick the person that was the flash in the pan of femoral, I wanna be like, I don't know,

is Neil Strauss a good example? He, like, he, he, he, he, he, he, well, didn't he have the book about Maggie? I follow him on Instagram. Oh, oh, yeah, he knows amazing. So he's doing better now, right? No, he wrote the pick up. But didn't he have the biggest book ever,

the pick up art? The game blew up. But he's also like the biggest ghost writer that there is. Spooky. Okay. Well, I'm trying to think of someone that was like, James Frey, a million little pieces. I mean, he ended up being a charlatan.

I'm just trying to think of an author, what? I see the book behind you. Oh, really? And it was all a shit. What if it's, I guess he said it was not a biography, but it was really fiction. Who cares? I'm just trying to think of someone that.

Actually, very nice guy. I'm sure. I'm sure. I'm just trying, this is a whole, I'm horrible at this. I'm trying to think of what, where you got the idea that you would go in. You think about the one hit wonders and you go, I don't want to be that person.

You don't want to be that. So for me, I was like Rodney Dangerfield, made it at 60. Oh, sure. Like pick the person, like pick the people you look up to and the trajectories you want to emulate and don't even think about those other ones. I can't even think about a flash in the pan. I'm only thinking of success stories.

Like I can't even, like I don't even allow that in my brain. And so for me, I kind of get to go like, oh, I'm, you know, because working as an actress or working on camera, I go, he's told like, you got to like 30. Yeah, that's sort of idea. You started getting off of it. He's established for everyone in some way.

But like as comedians, you just get smarter, you get more interesting, you get more worldly. Like the best is you have to come. Yeah. Like this is just the beginning. It took me a while to like really get in that space. Like what does a 25 year old have to say? Right. Like what do I have to say?

If I'm successful now, like imagine how good I'm gonna be. Sure. 30 years when I have a kid and it actually like lives some life. And the audience is grown with you and you've just been doing your part? And I'm a dork. I mean literally in my office, I have pictures of, you know, like Rodney Dangerfield

and Joan Rivers and like remind yourself, make sure you're giving yourself a lot of data and proof that all that's possible. I wanted to ask you about that because I think you had this joke once I heard you say, where you were like, I don't want my phone to get hacked, not cause the pictures that are on it, because of all the inspirational quotes,

the implication being that there's something kind of lame. Not because of my noons, because I have a folder, full of screen grabs of inspirational quotes. It's brutal. But there is this sense that I think with some people that there's like something wrong with that, or that something like a vision board is lame, or knowing what you want and trying,

like there's kind of like cynicism is cool and earnestness is lame. I feel like, you know, yes, I think as you get, agree on some level, but I committed to not being cool a really long time ago. And, you know, for me, I think I just surrender to the fact that really busy brains do well with very clean

aphorism, even if it's a platitude, you know, a very simple one, not my circus, not my monkeys. It's like, that will go out the window for me when I'm going to a chaotic situation and things are crazy and then I'm trying to micromanage people, mother, my, murder micromanage, those are some things you get when you grow up and now call a comb, you're trying to fix people, I'm trying to mentor people and I'm like, none of this is my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, that intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people aren't offended. Yeah. Sometimes I just have to write it on a poster note and put it right there when I'm kind of like,

ooh, is this gonna get me in trouble? And I'm like, oh yeah, I kind of need those guardrails. It is interesting. First up, there's this debate amongst the Stoics whether these sort of aphorisms or epocrans or maxims as they call them were necessary. Like they were like, the wise person should just know. Like you learn it, you just know.

And, and, uh, Sennaka, one of the other jokes is like, no, actually you need these like little reminders. And so that's what he was trying to do. He had this exchange with this friend Lucilius. They would write each other letters. And he says, the whole point of this is he's like, we should each get like one thing a day from each other. Like, I'll write you a thing, you write me a thing.

And then if there's just one thing that makes you a little bit better, that makes you wiser, smarter, fortifies you against adversity, that's what philosophy is. And the funny thing is when you look at like high performers, that's actually what, like if you go to the locker room of the New England Patriots, there'd be like little things all over. And just make champions. Yes.

You'd go, you're getting paid tens of millions of dollars a year. You're incredibly ambitious and driven. You've trained harder, had more expert coaching than anyone. You should know all this. And Bill Belichek is just giving you motivational quotes at the team meeting, but that's actually what it is at that level, right? And people are like, I've been amazed with Daily Stoke and like just the people who just follow this Instagram account and like the comedians. I had Chris to stuff in all my pockets we were talking

about. All of my friends in our comics are so obsessed with it. And it's obviously genius, and their comics are so obsessed with it. And it's obviously genius, you know, but it's the simplicity of it and the surgical, like there's no fat, the economical nature of like the silver bullet of like, that's what that's it. I can't make this quote better. My ego can't get around it.

I can't be like, boom, that's not like it's just true and clean and smart and I can repeat it to someone else. Like that's the best version of what religion does. You know what I mean? It just like there's something so soothing about knowing that it's true and it's a saint and I can repeat it to something out and my brain can't over complicate it.

I have to surrender to it. These ideas they've been distilled to their essence. I really smart people thousands of years ago and then the ones that didn't, it's like a comedian, the bad jokes get killed, the ones that aren't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then all the fat, each time you do it,

it's getting cut out a little bit more. It's being rendered down, rendered down until all that's left is like the essence of it. And that's the hack of Daily Stoke, is that it's posting these things that people have been working on for 2000 years. And it's been true of Daily Stoke is that it's posting these things that people have been working on for 2000 years. And it's been true for that long.

Yes. And I think comedians probably also just like a very well written line. That's true. Because it's an appreciation, I think writers too. But we always want to go like, we'll make fun of it, we'll judge it, we'll be like, we'll back then, they didn't have social media. It's like, you can't make fun of it, you kind of just get to surrender to it. And there's something really soothing about that for overthinky-thinking

complicated brains. I remember I talked at the University of Alabama to the football team, maybe six or seven eight years ago. And like I'm doing the talk, I'm giving my stuff, you know, I'm in my early mid-twenties then. I'm talking about Angel Philosophy, and I could see this person kind of scribbling the whole time writing these very, and then the first one to stick the hands up. And you know, you can't always tell who people are from the lights from the stage or whatever. So the lights come on and sign for questions, the first person has a

question, that was Nick Saban, like he was sitting in the front row, there should be nothing I'm teaching this person. He's the greatest to ever do what he does, his head, and there he is, and he's just looking for one little line, like one little line that he can repeat at something down, that's what he wants. And so it is funny that we kind of like kick ourselves

or we think we were even a little self-conscious or we hide it that like we like these inspirational things, and so on that. But that's what, that's actually the practice of it. And that's what great people do, is they just look for these little lines that get them to teach them thing. And that's really what 12-step groups are.

It's just a collective of lines. Because you go like, I'll take it from here, I got it. Yes. So it's like, there's some that bother me. I'm gonna be honest, maybe when someone's like, her people, her people, I'm like, ah, or like, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger? You're like, or it kills you.

Sure. And there's sometimes you have to consider the person that says it, you know? It's like, you know, you're kind of like, who said that? Okay. Well, maybe true for them, or it's true at that moment. Totally.

When, I mean, it's like, when it's like, Marilyn Monroe's like, if you can make a woman laugh, you can make her do anything. And you're like, I feel like that was Bill Cosby's like, when it's like Marilyn Monroe's like, if you can make a woman laugh, you can make her do anything. And you're like, I feel like that was Bill Cosby's motto, but okay, like I'm the first person to want to, you know, sort of capsize something and make fun of it. But yeah, you're exactly right. Like 12-step programs people go in and they're like,

I'm too smart for this, I don't need this. And da-da-da, and this doesn't make any sense. And it's like, well, if it's hysterical, it's historical. And you're like, I just have to, that's just true. And really helpful. And it's because well if it's hysterical, it's historical and you're like, I just have, that's just true and really helpful. And it's because somebody came, like at some point that was an original line. Someone came up with that where they stole it from someone else and they, you know.

Now people say it in spin classes, isn't it? But like they got it from the ancients or they got it from the Bible or they read, and it's, but at some, that quote was not a cliche. It was a new way of expressing the thing. And because it struck on something, and then it was repeated so many times. And it's this process that's working on it that then it becomes like simple, but potentially life changing advice to someone like my favorite one along those lines is that I got

from meetings I've been to, which was it works if you work it. And the idea that the 12 steps are not the thing. We weren't allowed to say that in a workaholic's meeting. Yeah, I know they have a different one. They were joke about how they're not supposed to talk about work positively. But the idea that like, you know, like stoicism doesn't do anything, like stoicism doesn't work. 12 steps don't work. The Bible doesn't work. None of the diets work. They work if you do the work. They are just the idea.

And so, you know, there's, there's just all, all these little lines that capture something that, you know, they're just really helpful to the writer. And this way people tattoo them and put them on the wall or, you know, repeat them or have them as mantras. That's the process. There's one that really changed my life. I don't know who said it.

The way you do anything is the way you do everything. I don't know if that's true. Now I'm like, that's not true. The way that I play pickleball is not the way that I write books or you know, whatever. But at the time, it was like, oh, yeah. Like it really held me accountable.

It really made me want to change. Well, that goes to your thing about the Christmas tree. That you're decorating the whole Christmas tree. That's exactly it. Oh, this doesn't matter. This is an important. And I think like at different, again, at different points in your life and career,

you need the wisdom of them in different ways. So early on when you're, you know, prone to cutting corners and not taking anything seriously and you only want to do certain things, you need that. And then later on, you're like, actually, what's more important? Having a perfect Christmas tree or having a happy family. Like, I, um, I know this woman in Ames de laura, she's 95, she was telling me her big regret in retrospect was like how clean her house was because she prioritized that over a house well-lived in by her family. Right?

But that generation of women, I feel like that was your job. Of course. But like, hey, is finishing the Christmas tree, is this you holding yourself to a high standard, doing things right, or is this you passing on your own anxiety or stress to your family? If you're me and you decorate the tree with everybody and then everyone leaves and then you redo the whole thing, that's my solution. Is everyone gets to decorate it and have fun doing your dog and have fasting it and you guys go home and then I just redo the whole thing. Which is, I very much enjoy, but yeah, I think you go like, okay, am I

yelling at everybody because they're doing it wrong and they're not? Or like, am I modeling this for my son? Yes. That you go all the way around the track and we also decorate the back. You know, I think it's like something I really learned in program is about your motives. You know, there's certain things that you can do with toxic motives and certain things you can do with, you know, benevol you can do with benevolent, sort of like healthier motives. And you made me think of the book, The Tools, by Phil Stutz and Barry Michaels,

The Death Bed Exercise, which is something that I've employed a lot where you imagine yourself on your death bed. And you go like, what am I gonna regret? And that actually helped me a lot with food stuff, like sort of overthinking and obsessing about food. I had sort of disordered eating a lot in my 20s, and I was like, oh God, I will never forgive myself

if I'm on my deathbed. The same way that Dolores thought about, I wish I hadn't have cleaned my house so much. I wish I hadn't have been so obsessed with calories. Right. And like thinking about food. Yes. Yeah, because I think I've come to, as a parent, realize that a lot of the things you

think matter, don't matter at all. And like, this is a great line from Mark's to realize this sort of, try to incorporate into my parenting strategy, which he says, you always have the power of having no opinion, right? And how much conflict I think about saying that to a female comedian, I have my own childhood. It's like my parents just had opinions about shit that wasn't good for them or me or our relationship that now years later, nobody gives a shit about.

Yeah. But like we had knocked down drag out arguments about or just the accumulation of the wire your shoes not straight next to the door. And I could just pick up my son's shoes and move them if it bothers me. Instead of choosing to have a fight about this thing, right, so the ability to decide,

I'm not gonna let this thing bother me, I'm not gonna fight about this thing bother me. I'm not going to fight about this thing. I don't need to care. Like I all the thing like when your kids born, you know, you just, you're just all of a sudden you're exposed to all this stuff that you didn't choose to be exposed to. Like shows they watch things people say you should and and just going like, they can enjoy it. I don't have to have any opinion on it. What's what? I don't have to go, this is the worst. This is the best.

I hate this. It can just be. It can just exist outside me because they're their own person. And then when it comes to the shoes though, is it I'm gonna just put my shoes straight and that will model it for him? I think so.

It's like, hey, look, when we get inside, like our rules, you get inside your shoes, you'll put your shoes in your room. Okay. And so what matters is most of the time, do they understand that that's the rule and do they try to do their best to do it? That's pretty great. Yeah.

Right. The time they got excited and came in and kicked their shoes off and then went and had fun and were kids. Do I need to ruin that to insist on this thing that is not actually the life lesson I'm doing? But then the next day are we back to putting them back? I think the other way I try to think about is like more often than not. Right?

Like if we can just follow these rules, these ideas more often than not, you're going to be getting the bulk of the wisdom or the importance behind it without having this tyrannical person enforcing the unit on the time, which is actually having the cumulative long-term impact of making you fucking hate that rule. And then you have to live with the fact that they're just,

like, going up on my computer, and just doing this monster. It's, I think that, and I don't mean to patronize adults, but I do think I've learned so much. I wish I had had a kid earlier in a lot of ways or at least red parenting books, because I wish a lot of books about leadership and having employees.

I wish I had just read parenting books in a lot of ways because so much of it was like, here's all the rules and da da da da, we're, I was reading this book, Hunt Gather Parent, which I loved about instead of telling your kid, do this and do this, and you need to clean your room. Instead of you need to clean your room,

it's, let's see how many T-shirts we can get in the hamper in 30 seconds. Like, how many things can you turn into a game? How many things can you make fun? Like, how can you just not be this draconian, you know, sort of cartoon of a boss, you know? And I think for a little while, I thought like, okay, I'm this young girl that maybe people won't take me seriously,

so I have to be really like rigid and, you know, let everyone know how in charge I am, you know, which is not one of the laws of power I know, but, you know, and then now it's kind of like, let's see how many jokes we can write. Let's see whoever writes the most jokes, like, you're not paying for lunch today. Like, how do we just make this more fun?

Yeah, I think one of the enemies I've found in life and in parenting is extrapolation. So instead of seeing this as the individual instance that it is, you have decided to see it in your head about what happens if I do this or don't do this now than tomorrow on the day after in the day. And they're gonna end up being a criminal or a loser or dependent on me or other parents are going to judge me when it's actually what's

it's take here is that there are some shoes in the living room. You know, what I mean, which is pretty about the shoes or is it about, I don't think this kid respects me. Like what you've extrapolated out, hey, if I let them do this. Uh-huh. And it's like, they're not getting away with anything. They're having a hard time. Yeah.

It's hard to be a child. Mm-hmm. And they're overwhelmed. And they're speaking to you through behaviors. And all you're going is the shoes, the shoes, the shoes, the shoes, you know what I mean? And the shoes don't matter. And in retrospect, you,

not only do they not matter now, years from now they will matter, even less to you. And you, and your kid, when your kid comes to you and says, why did the shoes matter so much? Yeah, be up that's the other thing. The whole complex about it. And you're like, I don't care about the shoes at all. And that would be a tragic conversation.

I remember one of this is, the word trauma is really thrown around a lot. I remember when it was reserved for like nurses and emergency rooms, but. Yeah, we're keeping war wounds. Exactly, but maybe this is just something I really remember a very frustrating thing as a child and it stuck with me and for like a more elegant way

to put it did mess me up for a while. for like a more elegant way to put it, it did mess me up for a while. My mom was always obsessed with, don't mess up your pantyhose. Yeah. Which I don't even know why I was wearing. Like tears in them and. Why was I wearing pantyhose?

I was five. I'm gonna mess them up. I'm five. I don't know if we have a appointment in Epstein Island later or why I'm even in these, but it was like picture. We had like a family photo day and I was wearing these white hose with a dress

and I had the pink to the hole, whatever. And you know, there was a lot of keeping up the joses in my family. We have to have this portrait and this photographer and we have to have this frame and we're a perfect family. And what does a kid do at five? If you're out in a park taking photos?

You have two and I'm like, and of course I run skid my knees and, you know, bleeding through the white hose, of course. And she was so stressed out. I remember we'd go to the bathroom, take my pants, flip them around, right? So that the blood was like on the back and I'd say, and I remember as a kid just being like, what, like, how can this matter so much? And then later in life, I'm obsessed with my clothes and obsessed with my hair and obsessed with how I look.

All the time, and I also hunt gather parents, I bring up again, which is I see a lot of my friends, not that I'm a seller parent haven't had one yet, check back with me when I'm actually at the playgrounds. But like what we, I see them with their kids, playgrounds, don't turn that, make sure and be careful, you're gonna hurt yourself on that. And I see them with their kids, playground is, don't turn that, and make sure, and you're gonna, be careful, you're gonna hurt yourself on that.

And I see the kid look at them like, well, why are we here? If it's so dangerous, you know what I mean? And the hunter-gatherer parent is all about like, wait until they're in actual danger, and then you just have to watch them, but you like sort of let them go a little bit. And granted, playgrounds are as dangerous

as they used to be when we were kids, you know? But instead of just warning them about a bunch of nebulous dangers that are around, just kind of let them figure it out and protect them when there's actually a threat. Hi, it's me, the Grand Poova of Bahambad, the OG Green Grump, the Grinch, from Wondery. It is the Grinch Holiday Talk Show Show is a pathetic attempt by the people of O'Vill to use my situation as a teachable moment. So, join me, the Grinch, along with Cindy Luhu. Hello, everyone.

And of course, my dog Max. Every week for this complete waste of time. Listen, as I launch a campaign against Christmas cheer, grilling celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. Now try to get my heart to grow a few sizes, but it's not gonna work, honey! Your family will love the show! As you know, I'm famously great with kids. Follow Tiz the Grinch Holiday Talk Show on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Tiz the Grinch Holiday Talk Show early and add free right now by joining Wondery Plus. a talk show early and have free, Mr. and Robbie Amel. You're gone. We are gone. Xmas. Now streaming only on FreeB. My wife never talked about this the other day, like remembering what a big deal it was, slash, like the problem it was.

If you poked a thumbtack in the wall to like hang up a poster, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like the respect for sheet rock as a child was like in retrospect totally out of proportion. Like as, as, as though that's not like a little dab of, uh, of, of something you buy at Home Depot. Yeah.

As if they didn't repaint the house like multiple times. And then assuming now to go, but you don't even live in that house anymore. Yeah. You sold it. And at no point was the buyer walking around going like 10% less. Yeah. Because your child had heavy metal posters up at some point.

Do you know what I mean? And so this preservation, this protection of stuff at the expense of peace and tranquility or just positive interactions. And then also later, like the expressions of creativity and fun, like if you walk through my garage and in my son's club, there's like, he drew all over it. He shouldn't have done that. I put on a jacket the other day and I realized he'd drawn all over it with Sharpie. And like, I was frustrating in the moment that he did that because I told him to be careful with the Sharpie and to not get it. I mean, he did it. But when I put it on the other day, I felt

no anger. I felt like is it on you for having a Sharpie and not a waterproof thing or like a like a Sharpie off my desk? Okay. But like I was like upset in that moment. Yeah. And then when I put on the jacket, what I thought was, I remember the four year old who did this, that four year old doesn't exist anymore. That four year old is gone. I will never have that four year old again, right? Because they're six now and they turn seven on this weekend, right? And so the idea of like the thing matters to you in the moment, you think it does, but you objectively, in not very long, you will be missing this exact thing, or you will be walking, I walk by the garage and I see that, and I go, that was so cute. Why? Like, no one will care about this.

Just like having hindsight right now. Yeah, just stop trying to preserve and protect and keep everything the way that it is. There's a, I think a letting go that needs to happen. If you want to, if you want to have peace and happiness in your house, but also not, not make them feel like things that don't matter matter a great deal. Something I just read in, I want to say, raising resilient kids, maybe the name of the book. I just don't want to plagiarize anybody or act like it's my wisdom here. I know nothing

about parenting that when a kid comes to you and tells you I you know I broke something right the first thing you should say is thank you so much for telling me. So that they learn not to keep secrets from you. You know like like they go, you know George Washington actually chopped down the cherry tree. You know, that story. No. So there's this, there used to be a story they would teach in school that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree.

Okay. And then he told the truth about it. Okay. The lesson, like nobody at that time thought George Washington actually chopped down this cherry tree. The point was he chopped down this prized cherry tree and then his father said, who did this?

And he was honest enough. That was less than one of the story, like George Washington did not tell him why. He's like, oh, I did it. But the actual lesson of the story is he didn't fear reprisals from his father for telling the truth. It's a two way street, right? It's not like George Washington said,

I, you know, I throw myself on the mercy of, you know, the parental authority. He understood, hey, if I'm honest about it. Like, let me tell our kids that all the time, we just want to know what happened. Like, you're, like, your brother is crying. Yeah. We obviously know you're involved.

But if you could tell us what happened, we could just get to the bottom of it and resolve it faster. You know, and we know you're involved. Just the two of you. We know you're involved. I am. My dad accidentally did something really genius one time. I, you know, I, I think he did a lot of great things,

but you know, that generation's like his dad was in a war, you know, and I like to, is radical forgiveness, but this is something that might come off people might say, this is like horrible parenting, but he had a very, I think, healthy relationship with human nature, probably very much on the cynical side, but he used to pound into me like life's not fair. He'd. He'd be like, you're going to have to work twice as hard to get half as far. He would wake me up in the middle of the night and quiz me on spelling words.

Like he was like, he was like, and I'm like, why are we doing this now? And he'd be like, because like on the day of the test, you're not going to, there could be a siren, could they could go by, you could have a crush on a boy and it distracts you. You could be hungry. Like, he would always, you know, want to put me in, you know, wild situations like he would put my favorite show at the time when I was, for the hills, not a two and oh, and he would quiz me on history stuff while my favorite show was on and I wasn't allowed to, you know, like he kind of really believed I was going to be at a disadvantage in the world. And so he was really strict in a lot of ways, but also really absent in a lot of other ways. And I remember he kind of really lost control

of me and my other sibling, like by the time we were in high school. And he would like buy a cigarette. He was like, I know you're gonna do this, so let me just do it, because I don't want you to go ask some, go get a fake ID and ask some man to buy you cigarettes. You know, like that was kind of his logic.

And there was something kind of genius about it because it took the sex appeal out of it. You're kind of like, well, I don't want cigarettes if you're gonna buy, the whole point is to do it secretly and hide it or whatever. But he said, I remember when I was like 14, he was like, I know you're gonna drink, I know you're gonna smoke weed,

I know you're gonna experiment with all this. He goes, so if you get in a car with someone who's drunk driving or stone driving, you're never gonna experiment with all this. He goes, so if you get in a car with someone who's drunk driving or stone driving, you're never gonna leave the house again. Okay. And that had like a really intense threat about if it was a boy. But if you just call me and tell me to come pick you up,

you will have zero punishment, zero. Right. And one night I remember I was in Bethesda, Maryland. This guy was drinking, gets in the car, put a quarter in the thing. It's like payphones or something at the time. And I called and I was like, dad, someone's drinking.

He came and got me, didn't say a word. That's great. And I was wasted. And it was like, probably not good parenting, but I never lied to him. Yeah. He made it so that his teenage daughter never lied to him. Yes.

And I didn't get in a car with that guy. Who's the comedian that was going to do a special with a streamer and then he brought it back and did it himself? Andrew? And Charles? Yeah. I heard him tell the story of this podcast

on a podcast once where he was saying like, he was driving to school with his dad and his dad goes, hey, did you do your homework? And he was, this may have even been on your podcast, actually. Maybe. And he was like, did you do your homework? And he's like, no, I didn't.

And he expected, you know, telling him, his dad was going to get mad, just going to be told he was going to be grounded. And his dad just said, um, do you want to stop and do it? And he was like, yeah, sure. And they stopped and did it like on like in the car on the side of the road. And he was talking about how he thinks back to that moment all the time, because it could have been a fight. It could have been an argument. It could have been a, I'm trying

to impotently enforce my authority on this person who's getting older and more independent. Or it could just be a lesson of like, it's not too late. Like, you could still do this. Let's just do it. Yup. Is your heart in the right, do you want to, do you want to be a person who didn't do their homework? Or do you want to be a person who did the homework?

And just like, It's never too late to make the right choice. Yeah, and then you just made the right choice and then they went to school. And what a sort of powerful lesson that is, not just in that individual instance, but going forward. And so I just try to think about,

should we do it now? That's really cool. Yeah, how much low, how much lower key that is? And if we do it now on the side of the road, next time you're going to be like, I've rather have done this than I before. Totally. When I'm aren't, you know,

yeah, and you might not get a, I think letting people have consequences is like a real big one. There's a book I'll give you in there. I went, have you read Jessica Lee? He's the gift of failure. I don't think so. Oh, it's incredible. It's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's, this idea of like you never want your kids to be embarrassed or fail or. So you're like, oh, sorry, I'm running across town because you forgot your lunch

or like you reminded them 50 times. And now you're doing their science fair project, is just the idea of like life. I'm not getting an F on the science project. Right, right, life is about consequences for decisions and it's so hard as a parent, you never want the snow plow parenting or a helicopter parenting,

it comes from a good place, it's not wanting people to feel distressed or pain, right? The people you care about the most, who in some ways it's like your heart running around outside your body. And yet, you're actually causing them much more pain in the long run by not letting them fail. Like in that story they just say, do you want to, it's your choice. It's also insulting.

I mean, we say to ACA, like when you help other people, you're not giving them the dignity of their own experience. You're saying like, you're not giving them the dignity of their own experience. You're saying like you're not capable of this. So I'm going to do it for you. Also, you're not capable of dealing with the consequences like you're too. You're not capable of breaking you to go without a lunch. And I think I'm embarrassed to have a kid that didn't finish his homework. Well, that's that's the reason is that it is I'm afraid it's going to make me look like a bad parent.

And actually, it's nothing to do with being a good parent. I'm worried it's going to make me look bad. Is that part of it? Like the ego of that? Well, there's a really revealing moment to me. The college admissions scandal where those parents were like, put in their kids in canoes in front of a green screen. Yeah, exactly. Well, so one of them green screen. Yeah, exactly.

So one of them, there's this, they have these wire taps on these parents and they heard one of the parents talking about it. And he basically says, I can't have my son go to ASU. Wow. Because even though ASU is actually a grade school and lots of people come there and there's nothing wrong with it, especially if he can't want to go. But he's not saying, oh, my son's not going to thrive at ASU. He's not going to learn things at ASU. He's saying, I can't have my son go to ASU. So you realize there's nothing to do with the kids at all.

Like, two of the other revealing ones is one is a Lori Loughlin's kid that's in it. She had like a successful YouTube channel that was making, that was beyond success. She didn't even need to go to college. And the other one, I guess it's a Hollywood thing, really. Felicity Hoffman's daughter wanted to go to Juilliard where you don't have to have SAT scores to get in or not. So she cheated on the SATs for a thing that did not even matter for what she was,

what her daughter wanted. But Rick Singer just wanted to charge no more. You want to, you don't want to have a kid. You want to have a kid that has a good SAT score, right? Like you want to have a kid who, you don't want to have a kid who's not not taking the SAT. I'm only going to an acting school. Right. It's so much about your kid being a reflection of you, which is so your kid is not a reflection of you positive or negative

and the ability to separate that is like I you know your kid's freaking out of the supermarket. Yeah. Your kid is freaking out at the supermarket. Yeah, I don't know that guy. Like they are the one you are being a parent. Yeah, yeah, And they are, and actually also understanding that they're not having a good time. It's horrible for them. Well, it's also that's, that's really interesting. Like there is, you know, and I'm, I'm curious, I'll probably be asking you for a lot of advice, sort of vac Lady back and forth of like, it's not your job to entertain your kid. Like it's, it's good to take them along to do adult things, but also knowing like, yeah,

this is boring as shit to a kid. Yeah. And I was reading about this like game you can play with them at the grocery store where when they want something, you can take a picture of it and go like, oh, we'll send this to Santa. Do this all the time. Right.

So that they're you're not saying no all the time. Like how can you not say no? Because grocery stores are basically the no store for kids. Well, it's also understanding what they don't understand. So like they don't understand that they're seeing this thing and they want it. And you're saying no, you can't have it. But they're hearing, no, I can't have this forever.

And it's disappearing into a black hole. Cause they don't remember everything. I've never seen these fruit lips again. Yeah. And it's like, they don't know that you know that this stuff is always at the grocery store. Yes. Or that you can remember. And these freaking companies put the good stuff low on purpose.

Or also that there's actually better thing. They don't know any of this. So when you, so when you just go no, you don't know that all that gives you cancer yet. All your wants, your, your wants or desires are wrong and correct. Instead of going, oh, you want that? Okay, we'll take a picture of it.

We'll talk about it later. Or like we realize like with the screen, like when we're turning it off, because they don't remember things and they can't type in to go back to the video they were watching. The video is disappearing forever. Wow.

And so to say, we're pausing it, and then I'm gonna take a picture of it, and we can come back to this exact point in this video at a later time. And they're like, oh, okay. They have never once asked to go back to it. It was just the immediate distress of not wanting this thing that they're caring about

in this moment to disagree forever. How did you figure that out, just come in sense? I'm sure my wife picked it up in a book, and then, you know, most of these things come from. It is a little bit like duh. It's still in the cloud. Like, it's a, they don't know that.

They can't be like, oh, I meant 423 in this video titled X. Like, so, so I think I just, I just, I just, I've spent a lot of time just thinking about what it's like to, like, it's hard to be me. So it's definitely hard to it's hard to be me. So it's definitely hard to be a child. I remember. I remember. It's hard to be my child. Remember how frustrating it was to be a kid when no one took you seriously and you just wanted to

be older and you like couldn't articulate your feelings. I remember. I remember I used to walk around with books hoping that people would take me more seriously. Like as a kid my dad had these art books and I would like walk around with them, like pretending like I was reading them, I didn't know just to try to be taken seriously. Well, there's a German word, it's umwelt, and it's like someone or something's sense of the world, right? So what is it like to be a bat? Right. What is it like to be a dog? What is it like to be a kid? So sheers one that kind of blows your mind is to go go this kid fell asleep in my arms or fell asleep in their car seat or fell asleep nursing and then I picked them up and I put

them in their crib and I turned off the lights and they fell asleep and they were asleep for four hours. Yeah. And then they woke up in pitch blackness. What do they think about what do they think that they died? Do they think that they died? Do they think that they are now in some other world? Yeah. Why is there darkness? Where am I? Who am I?

What has my mother and father disappeared? You just think about how insane that is. And so, if that's in, at that pretty run of the mill thing. Like even my four year old, he once told me he thinks he can teleport because he falls asleep in the car or he falls asleep in our bed and then he wakes up in his bed. How does this happen? Because I don't wake him up as it's happening. I'm picking him up and moving you rooms. So you're, they're lack of understanding about things that are happening,

creates distress because they're coming up with explanations for why things are happening. And a lot of their explanations are preposterously stupid. Yeah, or They explain the world in a way that would be alarming and confusing and so when you when you can just go like oh, yeah What's it like to be you? It's a lot gosh, I that even I want to apply that to adults sure that you're working with and you're like how does this person not? It's like when people are like, how could you vote for that person? I'm like, how can you not see how that person

would vote for that person? Ask them four questions, and it's pretty easy to do the forensic. The other one I've come around on is like, you go, trust the process. Like put in the work, trust the process, right? Well, I trust the process because I've been through the process. It has paid off for me, right?

Like, I know when I start a book, I feel like X, then there's the midpoint where I feel like terrible, then I start to get excited. I know, I know the process. So I trust it. It's paid off. You know, like the harder it gets, the closer you are in a weird way.

Yeah, and like just think about the things you're asking people, your kids, strangers to just understand the amount of assumptions that are baked in to your view on this thing. It's totally unfair. And if you could explain it or speak more from experience, it would be so much less painful, scary, distressing. You would also give people passes, you know. You also make me realize something that is,

I'm just gonna say it, even if it might feel like a tangent, that the kind of people listening to this podcast, you, people in program, people that have worked really hard on yourselves, people that are smart, that are quick. Weeks sometimes come off like bullies, and it's hard for me sometimes.

Like an adage that helps me is when you get healthy the sick and angry, when you try to set a boundary or try to like, you know, have some, you know, cogent wisdom or trying some other thing and people are like, what are you, and you're like, how do you not get? And you're like, oh, like, like, all of this might come off as dismissive to someone that doesn't know a lot about it.

You know, and it's so obvious to us, but sometimes when I'm in conflict about something, and someone's like, well, I don't understand what you're saying. And I'm like, oh, we're just like vibrating at different frequencies. Like working with prey animals has really helped me with that of just realizing that sometimes like how clear we are, how ambitious we are, how direct we are comes off to other people. Sometimes aggressive, sometimes like pressure, sometimes arrogant.

Yeah. And like you're just a fucking know it all. Yeah. And it's taken me. It's fun to be able to sit here with you and just like, brrrrpsst. Hey you, yeah you. I'm gonna let you in on a little secret.

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Hey, I'm Michelle Beato. And I'm Peter Rosenberg. Hey, Peter, tell the people about our new podcast. Right, it's called Over the Top. And we cover the biggest topics in sports and pop culture using royal rumble rules. That means we'll start with two stories. Toss one out on its ass and dive into the other stories

with ruthless aggression. Oh, but it never stops because every 90 seconds after that. ["Stand in the fire!" While God, whose music is that? another story comes down to the ring. Rinse and repeat until we arrive at the one most important thing on Planet Earth that week. Follow over the top on the OneDrew app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Over the Top early and add free right now by joining OneDrew Plus.

For the record, this is not a wrestling podcast. No, no, but it is inspired by wrestling. Isn't everything inspired by wrestling, Beetle? Fair point. Yeah! No! But here's all these things, you know? But like, I find myself sometimes talking to people

like, and I read this parenting book, and I never did it, and I'm just like, so maybe insecure about how unintelligent I am that I wanna know everything, but then sometimes I go out in the world and I have to just be a person. You don't have to teach everyone all the time. You're not on a podcast.

You don't have to show off how much you know. Like sometimes you gotta just like pump the brakes a little bit and be okay with knowing stuff and not forcing it on everybody and just kind of walk the walk instead of talk the talk. One of the things I got from my wife is she'll say like it's okay that you're scared to our kids. She's like I'm not scared. I've done this many times. I know how this works. Yeah. It's okay for you to be scared, but just know that I'm not, because I have a different

understanding or knowledge or experience here. And this idea that it's like, your emotions are your emotions. You're allowed to feel them. There's nothing wrong about them. But I just want, maybe it would be comforting or important for you to understand that I'm not feeling the same emotions. So if you're scared because you think this is a scary situation that everyone is terrified of, that's you're going to react to that differently then. I'm scared because this is new, but my mom or my dad is not scared because they've been here before. So you can see a CEO comes in and goes,

hey, you may have heard all this stuff that's happening in the news. People think we're going out of business or people think this is gonna be the worst business environment, but hey, I've been doing this 40 fucking years. I've been through this exact thing a bunch of times. It's gonna be fine. And if it's not fine, I'll communicate that to you.

Yeah, you'll be the first to know. Yes, and that that's, there's another book and there I'll give you, if you read Dr. Becky yet. Oh, yeah, yeah, I follow her on Instagram. Yeah, she's like, it's called the emotional vaccination. Yeah, oh. Just like communicating, these are the emotions you're likely to feel in this situation.

Let's just talk about it, think about it. You may still feel them anyway, but like they don't have to surprise you And they're definitely not surprising me and something that helps me and maybe this is like it's something we say in program when you're talking to a Sponsey who's newer than you you say wait for the question Before you start throwing advice out like wait just wait for the question before you start Well, you know, you should do this and this and this it's a small thing, but just saying like you know it works for me. Yeah It's a small thing, but just saying like, you know what works for me? Yeah.

You might not work for you. Yeah. But like, probably well, but like, you know it works for me. Yeah. And just kind of like when I've been scared like that in the past, this is what worked for me. I've been through this before what worked for me. So you're not just like going, I felt what you felt. I know more than you and here it is.

I think it's like taking me a second sometimes because I remember I had the therapist to say to me once, she was like careful how much you grow because there's gonna be less and less people that you can vibrate with. Things are gonna start getting lonely. There's a story I tell in the obstacles the way about Phil Jackson.

He's coaching the Lakers and he gets his back surgery and because the back surgery, he can't stand on the sideline. He has to sit and like, he has to sit like one row back. He can't sit in like a low chair. He's sitting in a high chair, like up off the ground to see the game.

And so he thinks it's gonna totally fuck up the team because the coach can't go from player to player. He can't be pacing with. And in fact, sitting up in the chair a little bit back from everyone, makes everyone kind of come to him, and it changes the energy, and it changes his viewpoint,

and he realizes what kind of this is an idea, he's expressing that, like, actually I think I need to be up in everyone's face very proactive, but in fact, stepping back and letting people come to you, it actually unlocks this other kind of learning and teaching and an element to the relationship. And so you sometimes you think you gotta do X-Bad

actually just gotta go, is your emotions, understand them, let you have them, come to me if you need anything. I'll be modeling over here, what I think should be happening. And that's just a slightly detached is a word that we don't like, but it's actually a more detached approach in a good way. There's a word that I love that I think people don't use a lot and it's something that I've learned from this dog trainer

that helped me with when you have really big, powerful dogs, you don't walk around dogs, you walk through dogs. So if you've got a big dog who's right in front of you, you're not gonna kick them, but you gotta walk through them. They always have to get out of your way always always always right or else they start to know They're in charge in the beginning. They can't sleep with you. Dara and it's very simple. He's like you need to be regal Be regal same with horses prey animals. They're trying to figure out who's in charge and if you're here You're just asking for permission all the time right and if you're here

You're being regal. So that is something when I walk into situations, it's such a dorky thing to be like, be regal, be regal. But like sometimes you just have to cheat it a little bit with your body, because your body's set your body and what you're wearing already communicates everything before you say it worked. Yeah. Yeah, that was the last thing I wanted to ask you about.

Like, we have this ranch, like maybe 25 minutes from here. It's where we spend most of our time. And like, I find, like, because I have that sort of energy of like wanting to do things and be driven and needing to poop. And then when you're around animals, and they're just present, they're not comparing themselves to other animals, they don't feel good or bad. They're just are. And there's a stillness to that. And I'd say specifically prey animals. What's a prey animal? So prey animals, so predators, like dogs, right cats, I have a different thing.

And then prey animals, basically everything boils down to them is fear or absence of fear. So I'm gonna rush, I have to do something. They're just like, is there a bobcat? Is there a mountain lion? That's all a boils, because they don't have, they're so relentlessly in the moment. And because they're energy conservationists, because they're grazers, right? They only get to eat the grass

that's around. So they're not going to waste a bunch of time being needy or desperate if, you know, they don't know when their next patch of grass is going to come. Like they have to be energy conservationists, right? And then any kind of anxious energy, like if you're walking up to horse trying to get a selfie, right? Ultimately, what you're saying is I'm afraid I'm not going to get this selfie. Sure. And then they're like, why are you in fear?

I got to go look for the mountain lion. Yeah, right. Like they don't understand fear. They don't understand insecurity at all boils down to. There's a predator close by. Yeah. So there's this incredible thing that happens with prey animals. If you really like work with them in a fair, a gallitarian way, where you want to

be in a partnership with them, where they just become a mirror to you. So the first thing we do in like a gala, which is like horse therapy stuff, is just you and the horse in an arena. And you try to see if you can have appealing enough energy that it wants to be near you. Because they're only reward is serenity. If there's no grass around, whereas dogs, their reward is food. I mean, look, I love dogs. I'm a dog person, but my dog will jump

in someone else's car. And go home with that and be totally fine. And I'm sure when they see me again, but like horses, prey animals, like their only reward is serenity. And then if you're gonna do grooming and stuff like that, it's different. But if you can get a prey animal to wanna hang out with you,

they can read your thoughts, they can read your mind, they can read your energy. So it's really fascinating to watch if you're standing next to a horse and they're just hanging out with you and then all of a sudden you're like, well, what if it walks away? What if it stops when they hang out with me and then it just walks away?

And you're like, goddamn it, they just walked away. What did I do wrong? And then they walk even further away. And then you're like, you know what, I have this edge on the back of my, and then it just walks away. And you're like, goddamn it, they just walked away. What did I do wrong? And then they walk even further away. And then you're like, you know what, I have this itch on the back of my neck and I'm just gonna take care of it. And I'm not gonna think about anything else. And I'm gonna make sure there's no predators around

and all of a sudden they're right next to you. So when you're obsessing about them, thinking about them, worrying about them, it's just like a really great way to learn your inner monologue and the kind of energy you're giving off. Because you know when you see people that are the leaders and they walk into work and they're like why is everyone in such a bad mood?

And you're like yeah because you just showed up. You did that. Yeah I remember when we first got our donkey we bought this donkey on Christmas or awesome. Awesome. And for 100 bucks. Yeah. You paid too much. Yeah most of time they're free. Or they come with the land because they're so great. They're supposed to have them. They're just livestock-guarding animals. Yeah, they stomp. Coyotes, they're awesome. And so I remember just standing there.

Like he's just standing there in the middle of this field. And I remember going sort of like laughing. Like what a dumb animal. I just sort of said. And then I go, wait, that's his job. His job is literally just to stand there to not be dead. And by standing there and being in himself, he's keeping other things away.

What would have made you think he was smart? You know, I'm gonna be like building a... No, like when he's open gates and tried to get into our house, you know, when they're doing sort of misjevious, intentional stuff, that feels, that like feels like a sign of intelligence. That's actually restless and maladaptive. Yeah, but just the idea that, like, you know, say, like,

they all say this in programs like, human being, that human doing. But like, the animal doesn't have any sense of that. It just, I am doing what I'm doing. It's happy, yeah. And that that's a pretty magical, wonderful place. It's like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm in this awesome pasture.

I've got grass. Because if I open that, there could be a mountain lion there, they're starting to that. Or if I bite this thing, I could break my tooth. Or I could be in your predator. You know what I mean? Unless they need to look for water or something like that. They're very much like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And that's like, and they're by default serene it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah. And that's like, and thereby default serene. So when you come in with some wild energy, but it is, you know, what is it again? The empathizing with someone else to stay the German word. Oh, well, well, I also love working with pre-animals. Because pre-animals always have their eyes on the side of their head, right? Predators are forward. And the first thing everybody does when they see a donkier horse, what do they do? They just go right to the head, which is this is the one place in the between their eyes that they can't see and horse is always

pro. Wait, so understanding like it's been how they perceive the world. That's you walk up next to them, you ask permission. This is how they see the world, know how they see you and then learn their language, instead of expecting them to understand English or whatever, you know, when you see people talk to their dogs, like, what did I say? What did we talk about yesterday? And you're like, do you really think, like, you know, so it's been a great exercise just to render

because you have to take language out of it. And working with pre-animals makes you realize how much, how, first of all, how full of shit we are, how in Congress, what we're saying and how we're saying it is, which is why it's great to work with young girls and boys, but working with young girls and horses because if you're going like, no, stop, that's not no. You know what I mean?

You're saying it with your body and you're claiming your space and sort of, it's about saying what you're saying. Say what you mean, me, which you say don't say it mean, but mean what you say with your body, your body language matters so much more than what you're saying. Say what you mean, me, which say don't say it mean, but mean what you say with your body, your body language matters so much more than what you're saying. So a lot of I see a lot of bosses where your employees don't respect you or you're not getting what you want because you're like, if you guys could just get that done today, like, you know, by five, like, that'd be great. Like, you're being wishy-washy. Like, what do you say what you're saying? Or someone's like, yeah, no, I like it. And you're like, do you think I didn't notice that? I can't believe you. Yeah. Like it makes you realize how full of shit we are.

What's a go back to full circle that can't live every scheduling? The other one I like is like, don't say maybe when you want to say no. Mm-hmm. Right? Like this is in a consent issue. I'm just saying like, if someone's like, hey, you want to go out tomorrow,

you want to do this thing? And you're like, ah, let me see. Let me check. I feel like fucking no. Like, not interested. Hard pass. But like, be clear about what you want to do and what you don't want to do or what you like. And you don't like. I just do the defaults. No. Like, just start with no. Yes. Like, no, is a complete sentence. Yeah. But just to don't say sorry. Yes, sorry. I interrupted. You know, don't say sorry. Just say no or don't make an excuse first.

Because you're asking people to argue with you. I think you this might have been something I heard on your podcast and it changed my life because I have a couple buy my computer a couple things that are written out. I'm at capacity at the moment. I will let you know if that changes. I'll let you know.

Don't follow them up with me. Because this is someone I think on your podcast might have said this that is like, no, I can't, I'm busy this week. Yeah. What about next? You know what I mean? Just do.

I'm gonna make this go away. Yes. Totally. And then if they respond again, I'm not responding. You know what I mean? You also know responses are response, you know, I kind of always forget that. And if someone's just like a bugaboo, they just, you know, they'll never understand. And that's, you know, boundaries, something I love from ACA is like, boundaries are for us and not them. So you can set one verbal boundary. But if they keep crossing it, then you just know context.

Also, you don't owe anyone any responses or explanations, which is very empowering. Just because it don't have to fucking RSVP, yes or no. Not interested, not interested. No one cares. No one cares. They're not gonna cancel the party, because you didn't respond. Right, and if they are, they'll tell you that.

They'll be like, hey, this is only about you, they don't, and if they don't, then it's a manipulative weird thing which you shouldn't go to anyway. Yeah, I can't make it, thanks for asking. Like, it's just very simple. Well, this is the wonderful thing about having kids. Is it gives you some real clarity and realizing, I'll show you my office. I want to make this, I don't want to come. I do have kids, but that has nothing to do with it. Like, I'm so like relentlessly honest at this point.

But I have a picture of my oldest,. But I have a picture of my oldest, and then I have a picture of my youngest, and then in the middle, this sports psychologist named Jonathan Fader gave me this picture, and it just says no. And it's realizing that when I'm saying yes to you, I'm saying no to these two people, who I already promised pretty much all of my spare time.

You can also think of it as like, my nightmare is that someone comes to my birthday party who's like, oh, because they didn't want to be there. Oh, God, we have to stop by Whitney. Cause you know, if we don't, like that's so embarrassing to me. So I never want to do that to someone else. If I'm like, I got to go to this thing. So it's like, if you're doing something out of obligation, get out of there. They don't want you to be there either. Yes. Or if they do, it's not a person. Yeah, when someone comes up, it's like, Hey, I can only be here either. Yes, or if they do, it's not a person you want. Yeah, when someone comes up,

he's like, hey, I can only be here for 10 minutes. And you're like, why did you come? Right. This isn't barris. We would have been fine without you. Like the self-importance of like, if I don't show up, I guess they're just going to cancel the party. Like, what do you think is going to happen?

Like the self-importance of that. But I did grow up watching a mom, go to four Christmas parties a night. We got to stop here. We got to stop here. We got to stop here. I think all that shit. That's the ego of that imposter syndrome too, which is like no one's trying to see if you have what it takes or not. They're they're feeling that about themselves. Like no one has enough time to think about whether you're qualified to do what you're doing.

Interesting. Also, this is some weird addiction or trying to get out of your feelings and I don't wanna participate in it. You know what I mean? Like someone who's like, I wanna come and then the day after, I don't know if I can make it. And you're just like, blah. Yeah, I don't need any of this.

Show up or not. I don't need any of this. Yeah, right. What, this has nothing to do with me and you're making my life harder. Yeah. Yeah, and kids give you some clarity on this because you realize who is being affected by your shit.

Yes. Or by your over committing, by your social anxiety, by your inability to say no, by your drama, by your black, like someone is bearing the cost of all of this that you like you're you can You can do as much shit as you want to yourself. Yeah, but now you brought in these other people who you owe slightly better to and Like so if you can't say note to you. Yeah, you don't want to be rude You don't want to be rude. You have to understand that you You say yes when you're lying, but you've already, like, there's no way out of this

that is not rude, right? So like if someone has asked you to do something and you don't want to do it, you don't want to hurt their feelings. So you say yes. You hurt, these other two, you heard a seven year olds feeling. But if someone invites you to something and it hurts their feelings, they're mentally ill.

That's not an adult. But when you, it's like you don't want it, you don't want, like in the scenario where you don't want to bear the bad news to someone, even though it's not actually bad news. But you don't want to say, you don't want to say the words no. Yeah. So you go, yes. Yes. Well, you are saying no. You're just saying no to them,

but they don't have the ability or the power or the understanding to be like, mom, why mom or dad, why are you saying no to playing right now? Why am I at the babysitters? And then when you're on your death bed, or you're going to be like, thank God, I went to that thing instead of hanging out with my kids. And you know, this is, I just want to pay credit, we're credit to do, and name drop. The singer see a, um, said to me once, because I, you know, struggled with some co-dependent stuff when we were talking about it. And she goes,

before I say yes to a plan, I ask, what's in it for me? Sure. And it blew my mind that being selfish is kind of selfless, kind of thing. And I was like, I didn't even think of that.

I like it never occurred to me. It's like, oh, I might run into some people I want to talk to you. I just like, no, I have to deliver this gift. and I have to show up and I have to entertain everyone. And we're a friend. So I don't want her to think her friends, I think I didn't show up to her party and that we're not friends. I just was, I couldn't think of, like, if I can't think of a couple of things that's in it for me, I just can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. And there's another road. Yeah, and it's, and again, it's like, imagine something like knowing someone's in the car going, we have to go, it's just Whitney invited us

and you know how she is and let's just leave the kids at home. We'll just go for two hours. I'd be like, stay home with your kids. Well, the stoic thing is, the stoic version of this would not be, what are you gonna think on your deathbed? The stoics would say, actually, you're on your deathbed right now. First off, because you could die at any moment,

but the other thing the stokes tell us is that we're dying all the time. And so if you actually understand having children or your own life as a process of dying, you're one years old and one day for one day, right? That the person you are now, like it's kind of a dark way to think about it, but having kids is this constant process of loss, but also gain, because who they were,

they're no longer, but they're this new thing. And so as you're doing, you're committing to other things, you're gone too much, you're working too much, all this stuff, it's not like, hey, in the future, you're gonna regret this. Your future you're gonna feel hey, in the future, you're going to regret this. Your future you're going to feel like you're losing on, you're losing out on something right now. Yeah. You have a finite amount of time and you're choosing to do this other thing instead. And to understand also that this, I can't wait till they're walking. I can't wait till they're driving. What you're also doing is fast forwarding through the thing that you want the most, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Oh, that's fascinating. And I don't know if this is pertinent or not, but the worm at the core of my Ernest Becker about terror management theory helped me a little bit within this area because it's sort of about how humans, like we're, I mean, we're the only mammal that, animal that knows it's gonna die. So we do all these things to manage our terror,

you know, like we get obsessed with sports teams and we make family crests and try to be immortal in all these ways. And it just made me realize all the ways that I kinda distract myself because it's hard to just be alone with myself sometimes. And, you know, we talk about like our obsession with Rome now and the bread and the circus and they're distracting us.

And I'm like, yeah, of course, that's always happened, but like what am I doing to just like jam pack my time? So I don't have to sit with the fact that I'm slowly dying. Yeah, you're you're it's not just that you're slowly dying, but that you're also Fast forwarding it by thinking about what's next, right? Like tomorrow or the next day or summer or Chris like you're you're wishing through or rushing through summer or Chris, like you're wishing through or rushing through your life. This thing that is going to go by very fast. And so there's this passage in meditations from Mark's Reuse, who does, in fact,

bury multiple children, like he loses multiple children in a way that was gratuitous, even in that time. Like where most people did, it's like six or seven children, just insane amount. Like, just in theory or like. Just everything, diseases and plagues and injuries and accidents, it's just this grotesque, you know, series of tragedies for him. He says though in meditations, it's a line from Epitides,

he says, as you tuck your child in at night, tell yourself they may not make it through the morning. He's meditating on the mortality of a show that, why is he doing this? I don't think it's because he's going, you know, being attached is dangerous. And so you detach and then you don't feel it when they die. I think he's saying, don't rush through bedtime.

Like he's saying, like bedtime is it. This is the whole fucking thing. Enjoy this. Be here for this. Don't wake up tomorrow and this thing has happened and gone, I'm sure I'm so glad I got back to that dinner party, right? Like I think to myself as I'm like, my son is not going to bed as quickly as we would like. He's asking for one more story, making up that he needs a snack or whatever. He's doing. I'm going like, I want this to be over. Some day it will be over.

Not for good reasons. You're going to get your wish. Yeah, some day it will be over for tragic reasons, or it'll just be older because he's 11 and he doesn't want me in his room. You know what I mean? And so the idea that you're rushing through that, that you want it to be over for what? So I can check my email.

So that's what the donkey's looking at you going, money doing, like this is it. There's moments now. They're just like, you know, I mean, I sit in my horse's stall and we just sit there. I'm like, oh, this is so, uh, in like we want. I can do this all day. This is literally all I care about.

And that's a wonderful magical thing. But I do think it's hard for like high performers and ambitious people to be relentlessly present. But that's it. That's like, that's where the magic is. And they needed the most to balance out the intensity that you have. You have to like maybe a regular person doesn't need to think about this, but we need it the most. But I think it's also good to do it with negative stuff too. Because you go like, oh, this great thing is going to be over soon, but so is this bad hard thing. Sure. Nothing was.

Yeah. So it's just sort of like, this is painful, but it's like, it's all just temporary. Yeah, he's meditation. Mark says something like, the pain will end or you will end, but one way or another, it will be over, right? Like this thing, you're always the one who's so bad. You know, it's either going to kill me or it's not.

Or it's probably not. And so I guess we'll see. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us. And it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode. You Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad free on Amazon music.

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