The Daily Stoic - Why Everything is F*cked | Mark Manson

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

🔉 Listen to Mark's The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Podcast.📚 You can get signed copies of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Journal, and Everything is F*cked from The Painted Porch. 🎧 Check out Mark's recent interview with The Daily Stoic.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, I'm Emily, one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. Some of them hit the big time overnight, some had to plug away for years, but in our latest series we're talking about a man who was world famous before he was even born. A life of extreme privilege that was mapped out from the start, but left him struggling to find his true purpose. A man who, compared to his big brother, felt a bit, you know, spare. Yes, it's Prince Harry. You might think you know everything about him, but trust me, there's even more.

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And in our latest series, Hitler's Angel, we tell the story of scandalous beauty, Diana Mosley, British aristocrat, Mitford sister and fascist sympathiser. Like so many great British stories, it starts at a lavish garden party. Diana meets the dashing fascist Oswald Moseley. She's captivated by his politics, but also by his very good looks. It's not a classic rom-com story, but when she falls in love with Moseley, she's on a collision course with her family, her friends and her whole country. There is some romance though. The couple tied the knot in a ceremony organised by a great,

uncelebrated wedding planner, Adolf Hitler. So it's less Notting Hill, more Nuremberg. When Britain took on the Nazis, Diana had to choose between love or betrayal. This is the story of Diana Mosley on her journey from glamorous socialite to political prisoner. Listen to British Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast, where each weekday we bring you a

meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Long week for me.

Finished recording an episode at the Banda Porch on Thursday afternoon. Picked the kids up from school, drove all the way to New Orleans, spent the weekend in New Orleans with my parents and my sister, got some great runs in, ate way too much food, and just sort of stomped around the place where I moved to be a writer. It's funny, I've got a copy of Right Thing Right Now with me, that's the new book, and I had it in my bag when we walked by the apartment

that my wife and I lived in when I was writing my first book back in 2011, which seems like literally an eternity ago. I don't know when I, it would have been a little bit after that that I would have met today's guest. By the way, you can pre-order the new book at dailystoke.com slash justice. There the way, you can pre-order the new book daily stoke comm slash justice There's a bunch of cool pre-order bonuses, but I would have met Mark Manson

I guess sometime after that I've been a fan of his writings for a long time sort of We started blogging. I think right around the same time. I think we're mutually, mutual fans of each other's work. When would I have met him in person? I guess I met Mark in person. He's from Austin, he doesn't live there anymore, but he came right when he was kind of thinking about doing what became the subtle art of not giving a fuck.

And we talked book publishing, and that book came out roughly the same month Same time as ego is the enemy You want to talk about an ego killer? It sold a couple more copies than ego is the enemy a Monster sensation more than his books have sold more than 20 million copies and been translated into 65 languages and reached number one in more than a dozen countries. He's just really good at making accessible big ideas, interesting, provocative, accessible,

and also just a great dude who I've gotten to know now for many years we were in a writing group together for a long time We used to meet in Arizona and talk and mark gave me a bunch of great advice Mark gave me really great advice when I was writing conspiracy He actually actually he helped me with the intro of conspiracy and he helped me with the intro of stillness is the key both times Really perceptive advice. Just said you got to cut this, you got to move this, help me rethink it. So I always love talking to Mark. He's been on the podcast a couple times. I'll link to those old episodes. This is the first time we got to sit down and record in person. We did two two plus

hours. So half the episodes going to go on his new podcast, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. He's had some great guests. I was just listening to his episode with David Brooks. And you can listen to the first half with me, the second half with him. If you haven't been living under a rock and you haven't read The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, or Everything is Fucked, a book about hope, you definitely should. There's a cool movie on The subtle art of not giving a fuck what you did a podcast about. My favorite episode, one of my other favorite episodes with him, we talked about what we call the catastrophe of success.

I watched how you'd think hitting it big would be everything you dreamed of, but it's also challenging and it comes, it's a chance to practice stoicism. Mark's more on the Eastern side, on the Buddhist side, but it's been interesting to watch Mark's journey. I think we had a really great conversation. I loved seeing him.

And I think this is one of the best interviews that I've done on the podcast. And I think you're really going to like listening to it. You can follow him on Instagram, at Mark Manson on TikTok X and YouTube at I am Mark Manson. His YouTube videos are blowing up. because again, Mark is really good at communicating these ideas to audiences and all the different mediums. He started as an online writer. So he's really good at

this stuff. And I'm excited. Thanks to Mark for coming out. Check out the other half of this interview when you're done on the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast which I will link to enjoy on the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast, which I will link to. Enjoy. ["The Last of Us"] My podcast stretch. It is hard. Like Cal was saying the same thing. It is a problem that like, when they first started,

they were all very short and you'd get them done. And then it was like kind of refreshing because it'd be like a radio interview is eight minutes and then it's like this, you get to talk for a while. And now it's like, they don't even have an end. It's just like, come and we'll record. And then so it could go for three and a half hours. That's the worst.

So I was thinking, I think some, let's say critics of ours would say we're like lightweights, you know? So I was thinking, I think some, let's say critics of ours would say we're like lightweights, you know? That you should just read the originals or we haven't read the originals. But I was thinking the last time I talked to you, I think we were having a pretty in the weeds discussion of Kant and the categorical imperative. Which I don't know if people would guess

that's what you and I are talking about. Actually, I don't think people would be surprised that this is what we talk about in our pre-time. No, and then you sent me a very obscure academic paper on the thing, you're like, my best thinking on this topic is this. And you're like off the top of your head, had some pretty solid references,

which was actually quite helpful for what I was writing. But like, I'm not sure that's what people would, I think people who like us would guess that's what we're doing, but I'm not sure that's what people who don't like us would think we're doing. Our critics would not guess that. Yes, exactly.

Yeah, there you go. No, because I was thinking, so for, to give people what we're talking about, the categorical imperative is basically you should never do anything that you wouldn't want other people to do all the time. That you wouldn't want to be a norm of human behavior. You wouldn't universalize, yeah. Yes.

And so, I don't know, that sounds well and good, and maybe people think it's similar to the golden rule, but Kant sort of talks about some very specific examples of this from, he goes like, basically a Nazi's beating down your door and you're hiding people. It's like the scene in Inglourious Bastard. Sure. That's happening to you. Do you lie and say that they're not there?

Yeah. Because then if you say, oh, lying is okay in this instance, does it not become okay in lots of instances? And it's like, to me, that's almost like what I hate about philosophy, because first off, it's a preposterous, like deliberately constructed example to be vexing. And then also it's one of those things that like,

the philosopher manages to contort themselves into a position that's hyper rational, but also just like really stupid. You know, it's like, of course you should lie. And of course you can lie. And the world would be a bad, a worse place if people did not lie in that scenario. Okay, so I have like a pet theory about moral philosophy

that I've actually never talked about before. So this is gonna be a premiere, a world premiere of Mark's half-baked moral philosophy theory. The maddening thing about moral philosophy is no matter what direction you go into, whether it's Kantianism or utilitarianism or consequentialism or even the ancient moral philosophy, you can always find loopholes.

You can always find, you can invent some scenario in your head where things become contradictory, where things stop making sense. And I've kind of developed this theory that most of the major moral philosophical schools are partially true. They almost represent like one piece of software running in our brain. And we need all of them running at the same time. It's almost like, it's almost there's like a democratic system in our brain of like measuring like, okay, what's the consequentialist gut feeling of this situation? What's the Kantian gut feeling of this situation?

And we try to balance these different impulses and maybe each one of us has different weighted balances towards each direction. Some people are more naturally consequentialist, some people are more naturally the ontological. But ultimately no specific function in our mind, no specific school of thought is 100% right all the time. And I think philosophers have basically chased their tail in circles for about 2,500 years, trying to find the single unifying theory of moral philosophy.

And I'm just skeptical that one exists at all. No, that's really interesting. And yeah, you do, I talked about this in the intro of the Justice book that is coming out in June, where you, as a philosopher, you're like, okay, here's the trolley problem, or here's this, or you go, how do you, you get caught up in these big questions that are essentially unanswerable.

Meanwhile, like from when you woke up that morning to when you got to your office in the ivory tower to start thinking about that problem, you actually made all sorts of moral decisions of significant consequence in the real world that you gave zero thought to whatsoever. Do you know what I mean? From like whether your clothes are made in a sweatshop

or not, how you drove or not, the division of labor in your marriage, all these other things, right? And so we almost love talking about totally impractical, theoretical philosophical questions, like what would you do if the Nazis are beating on your door and you're hiding Jews under the floorboards, as a way to not have to talk about

really practical moral questions about like, do you pay your employees fairly? Or like, you know what I mean? Like just who do you vote for, et cetera. So it's almost like it's a way out. Like you think about the trolley problem as if that's ever gonna be a scenario you're in, but actually, you know, the status quo

is running people over with trolleys, like millions of people every month. So the kind of the preeminent Kant scholar alive right now is a woman named, I believe her name's probably gonna get this wrong, but her name's Christine Korsgaard, and it's, I believe she's the one who said, she's like, the proper answer to the trolley problem is it's a stupid problem, don't ask it.

Like, cause that, it's just an absurd construction in the first place that nothing in reality is ever going to be perfectly self-contained, a situation like that. You can endlessly conceptualize extensions of your behaviors and each decision that you make. So yeah, I mean, I definitely went down, and I forgot you were writing the justice book.

So this all makes sense now. I went down the moral philosophy of the rabbit hole a number of years ago, and I just kind of came up feeling like it was very navel gazey. Yes. There's no solid footing, like permanent solid footing for any of us to put our feet on and so it must be negotiated socially between ourselves.

Well, and then when you actually look at the philosophers, more the ancients because they tended to be less specialized, right? So like, it's only a somewhat recent invention that you could basically just be, you could just think about these problems all day and make a living. So they were more engaged as people,

or just they were these sort of Renaissance men and women who also wrote plays and did these other things. Like, you don't get the sense, especially when you look at the St. Like you don't get the sense, especially when you look at the Stokes, you don't get the sense that they were somehow like paralyzed by these things. So it's like on paper, the problem is unsolvable. And then you look at like say Kant's life,

he's just going through his life. Do you know what I mean? So you get this sense that there's no answer to them. And then that's kind of the answer. The answer is like, well you think about it and it's kind of interesting and it gives you these different perspectives and then you kind of just like do your best

in each individual situation based on, it's almost like a gut instinct ultimately, like telling you what's right and wrong. Yeah, I'm definitely become much more amenable to kind of the classic virtue ethics of the ancient Greeks and Romans. Mainly because I think at least with them there was kind of this admission and acknowledgement of like, okay, honesty is generally always good and you should generally always try to be honest, but like obviously you're going to fail and there's going to be like situations that are impossible

and you're human and you're going to fuck up and that's okay. But you know, we should generally try to be honest. And I think that that admission that that you're were human and life is messy and that you're never going to get it right all the time, but it's still something you should pursue even though you're never going to completely reach it. That feels much more practical than the kind of the enlightenment era, like Bentham and Kant and all the wild theories and stuff that emerged out of that. The other thing that I get a lot, which is weird because I didn't write it, but people go like, and so how do you square all this stuff with the

48 laws of power or whatever? Well I didn't write it so it's not my job. But also, that's an interesting component of philosophy and I think human nature, which is we ask people to square things as if, how do I square trying to be a good person with the 48 laws of power? Have you looked at the fucking world? It's awful.

Do you know what I mean? And evil obviously exists and people do fucked up things all the time. So the idea that like I have to square like pragmatism or you know, any of these things with these, it's like, no, it's kind of the other way around. Like the world is doing fucked up things all the time and we're trying to figure out how to like insert

some modicum of goodness or decency or virtue into it. Not like everyone's perfect and then some Machiavelli writes a book 600 years ago and he fucked it up. You know what I mean? Like he- Fucked Machiavelli. Everything was going so well until Machiavelli showed up. No one had ever thought about lying.

There was no will to power before then. And like, government was always effective and did the right thing and secured the most rights for the most amount of people. It's like, no, like, the world has always been filled with the same, you think about the kinds of people that we're worried about now, like let's say bad people.

Not only did those kinds of people always exist, but they were actually less constrained previously. Do you know what I mean? Now, you could just murder someone in a way that was much- You just call them a witch and then you can go throw them in a well. Yeah, yeah, just like, now people are like, oh, cancel culture is so bad.

It's like, but at least even the people involved in cancel culture are like, but we can't burn them at the stake. Like, we can't literally send them into exile. You know what I mean? Like, so it's like the same tendencies, the same things that humans do that are bad now have always existed,

but we're just more unrestrained in the past. And so- I also think people, it's a natural tendency to mistake the prescriptive for the descriptive. And I imagine this is just the story of Robert Greene's life is him trying to explain to people like, this is not necessarily prescriptive for the descriptive. And I imagine this is just the story of Robert Green's life is him trying to explain to people like, this is not necessarily prescriptive,

it is descriptive of human nature. And so yeah, it's easy to intertwine those in your head. Yeah, the moral philosophy thing is interesting too, is as I've been writing this book, like I'm having to think like, I wanna talk about justice, I think it's interesting. I think moral philosophy is fascinating. And then you're like, but most people,

even just hearing that word are like, nope. Yeah. You know? Snooze button. Or just like, what does it say about our society that the word justice has a negative connotation? Yeah. Like, it's not like the thing that we're all agreeing

or even virtue, right? You mentioned virtue. Like you go virtue, people are like, oh, that's pious and self-righteous, and there's a religious element to it. And it's like, okay, but what word are you holding up as the highest? What's the sum and bottom for you then?

And the answer, I guess, is nothing. Which is... Judging by recent historical events, yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, like what, there is like a, there is an earnestness to early moral philosophy. Yes. That like, you're trying to be good

and you're trying to be decent. And that we're, like, there's this ideal we're trying to realize that we're all aspiring towards. Now it's almost like the battle is whether anything has any meaning at all. Yes, I was gonna say the fight now is against nihilism, essentially. Yes. Yeah.

Which is funny too, because Camus gets this reputation, you know, existentialism of sort of being near to nihilism. But like, I mean, that's what the fall is all about is the idea of like, if you aren't a good person, it haunts you. Yes. And so it's actually this like work of profound meaning. Yes.

But somehow we've taken the exact opposite from that. It's existentialism, speaking of something that got a bad reputation. Almost as unfair as stoicism. Like where what we think of it is so far from what it actually was. Yes. Yes. And I think Sartre's probably largely to blame for that because he was just a piece of shit as a human. But it's, existentialism is actually like, I feel if I had to put an ism on me, I would probably put that because I've come to the conclusion

that that is the way out of nihilism. Like it is, existentialism is the acknowledgement that yes, there maybe is no inherent objective moral meaning to life or anything, but it is incumbent on us to create that meaning for ourselves through our relationships, through our work, through our actions, through our contributions to the community

and to civilization. And they also point out that that acknowledging that responsibility, that accountability is fucking terrifying. It is absolutely burdensome in a way that just going to church and listening to whatever the preacher says is not. And I have certainly found that true in my life. And I feel like as a culture, we're kind of, we're on that brink of nihilism. And I think these messages of,

you know, for lack of a better term, this pop philosophy that people like you and me and Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris and a lot of people write about, like I think there's a reason why these books are selling so well. And it's because people are on that brink and they do need, they're looking for somewhere

to get their footing and to feel some sort of like solid meaning in their life that isn't just handed to them by their parents or society. Yeah, there's a quote I love. It says, between Cicero and Marcus Aurelius, when the gods had ceased to be and Christ had not yet come, I think it's Flaubert, he said, man stood alone in the universe.

And so he was talking about that era of Roman philosophy, basically Stoicism, that it's the only thing there was. So you're not the old sort of pagan way of all these things are true and Athena's guiding you and not the solace of Christianity being like here are the 10 commandments, don't do these things. And by the way, if you do these things where you don't believe you're gonna go to hell

and if you do them, the reward is heaven, right? There's just this moment where you're just a person in a powerless person in an overwhelming world where evil does exist and it's not clear whether good is rewarded or not. And you're at the whim of fate and fortune. And you have to come up with a system for living. And that's, I think what stoicism was,

obviously Flo Bear's timeline is like totally off. Like none of those dates are correct. I was doing the math and I was like, wait a second. But as the old ways is dying and then the new way is there, there is that period. And I think we are in a similar period. And that's also a very similar period to the existentialists where it wasn't just like religion was still there,

but they'd also just experienced the absolute worst things that human beings had, like murder and slaughter and genocide at an industrial level was so horrifying that the idea that this could all be wrapped up with quaint, antiquated religious notions, it's probably the same thing in the 1500s. I'm writing about Montaigne now and you're like, for basically 1500 years, there'd been these explanations about what the world was, what mattered, and then Luther attacks these theses on the wall, and then they discover a fucking whole new continent,

and then also a, of course people start mirroring each other, and you needed a new explanation for the world. And yeah, the idea that you're at this brink, and over the edge is the abyss or nihilism. It actually, it's not just clever thinking that gets you back. It's like a sheer force of will,

the decision to be like, I'm going to make my life inherently meaningful and significant, even though it may well be meaningless and insignificant. That's like a extremely powerful thing. Incredibly. And this is what Nietzsche meant when he said, God is dead.

Is he, he was basically lamenting that scientific, the scientific revolution, the industrial revolution, we had basically managed to create progress for ourselves. Yeah, God is dead and we have killed him. Yes, exactly. And it was not, he was not like dancing on the grave of God. He was, it was actually like a warning sign to everybody. Like, hey, existential crisis coming up soon

because now we don't have any permanent moral footing under our feet to stand upon. And so a lot of Nietzsche's work, all the stuff about the Uber mention, everything, it's exactly what you're talking about. permanent moral footing under our feet to stand upon. And so a lot of Nietzsche's work, all the stuff about the Ubermensch and everything, it's exactly what you're talking about. Like having the courage to create meaning for yourself, to define what is valuable in this world, what is a good life, choosing your values on your own, to use my language, choosing what to give a fuck about,

in the face of infinite options, it's really fucking hard. It's really hard. And it's absolutely a 21st century first world problem, but it's here for the majority of us. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopen. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history.

This season, we delve into the life of Alan Turing. Why are we talking about Alan Turing, Peter? Alan Turing is the father of computer science. And some of those questions we're thinking about today around artificial intelligence. Turing was so involved in setting and framing what some of those questions were but he's also interesting for lots of other reasons Afro. He had such a fascinating life. He was unapologetically gay at a time when that was completely criminalised and stigmatised and from his imagination he created ideas that have formed a very physical, practical foundation for all of the technology on which our lives depend.

And on top of that he's responsible for being part of a team that saved millions, maybe even tens of millions of lives because of his work during the Second World War using maths and computer science to code break. So join us on Legacy wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Saruti. And we are the hosts of Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases.

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and the very uncomfortable phenomenon of genetic sexual attraction. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Like, can someone give consent to be cannibalized? What drives a child to kill? And what's the psychology of a terrorist? Listen to Red Handed wherever you get your podcasts

and access our bonus short-hand episodes exclusively on Amazon Music, or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. Yeah, I mean, that's existentialism. Like you could kill yourself, but if you're not, well, what are you gonna do after that? And like the myth of Sisyphus is so,

it's such a powerful example. So Sisyphus is condemned by the gods to roll this rock up the hill. He's never gonna get there. It always rolls back down. And Camus, again, he's saying, no, imagine him happy. Imagine he's gonna go like, this is my thing. This is my thing.

It's cliche, but it's like, imagine if Sisyphus wasn't like, I have to roll this rock. I get to roll this rock up the hill. And there's something cheesy and lame about that, but also that is, yeah, that is the human condition. Yeah. Like, you didn't choose to be born. You don't know when you're gonna die.

You're not gonna be remembered. You're not sure if there's an afterlife. They're almost, they're very likely isn't. And there's no God that set down these rules of like, these are the commandments, you know? And so why should you care about anything? And why certainly should you try to be good and do good in a world where very clearly

that's not only not rewarded but it's harder. Yeah. That so the decision to say like, yeah, I'm, I'm, but I'm doing it anyway. Like it's, it's a, it's actually a very empowered thing and it takes a strong person. Yeah. There's like a very, very tiny sub niche of a community online that they call themselves a optimistic nihilist. And it's funny, actually, I was doing my book tour for Everything is Fucked, which is where

I did most of this research and wrote about most of this stuff. And a guy came up to me after the show and he's like, have you ever heard of optimistic nihilism? And I said, no. And he said, it basically boils down to one of the things I wrote in that book, which is if there's no reason to do anything at all, there's no reason to not do anything. There's no reason to not be a good person.

There's no reason to not chase your goals and try to achieve your dreams. There's no reason to not help other people and love other people. And once you flip that on its head, it's actually, it can be quite liberating. Yeah, and one of my arguments for stoicism is not like you do all these things so you go to heaven.

It's that you don't do, you do or you don't do these things so you don't live in hell. It's not just like, hey, all things are equal, you could be good or bad. It's that when you actually look at the lives of the people who have decided that everything is meaningless and nothing matters, and there is no good or bad or whatever,

very rarely do I look at those people and be like, they're having a great fucking time. You know? It doesn't end well. No, it doesn't end well. And the irony too of a lot of people who become cynics is that, like, you know, Ambrose Beers, the famous, famous cynic.

You know what his father's name was? His father's name was Marcus Aurelius Beers and his father's brother, so his uncle, was Lucius Verus Beers. So he's like steeped in cynicism from like the very beginning. His cynicism is not rooted in this, from this place that everything is meaningless

and nothing matters. It's more that he has this very strong moral compass and very high expectations and hopes for the world. And then he lives through the civil war and the Gilded Age where nobody is being good or decent. And in fact, like it's the age of the robber barons and corruption and evil and all these things. And so, so often you find in these cynics,

it's not that actually nothing is meaningless or even to them, is that they have this very strong moral compass. They've just been burned so many times. It's almost easier to just be, to like give up on it. Do you know what I mean? Like the, if everyone acted like them, they wouldn't be cynical anymore.

Yeah. I'm curious, out of all the books you've written, was the Justice book harder? Ooh, yes. I'm really curious, out of all the books you've written, was the Justice book harder? Ooh, yes. More complicated? Because it's like everything, like discipline, courage, like there's so much science and research and like so many examples.

Justice is just such a nebulous concept and you can get caught down these philosophical rabbit holes. I'm really curious how it was. It was really tough. So the first problem was how do you make a book about justice that doesn't say justice in it because people are probably not gonna care. So I think when you say like, this is the virtue of justice,

people are like, what do I need to read? I'm not a lawyer, you know? But really what they meant by justice was like doing the right thing. And in fact, you could argue all of the virtues are aimed, that's what virtue is, about excellence or doing the right thing. So if courage is doing the right thing when you're scared,

discipline is the sort of fortitude and strength you need to, the command you need over yourself to do the right thing, wisdom is knowing what the right thing is, then sort of justice is actually doing it, right? So I tried to make it more about that. So like the first part of the book is like all about sort of personal integrity, like just like,

what's the code by which a person should operate in the world? And the reality is most of us are in, are largely in agreement about that. Don't lie, don't cheat, be upfront, keep your word, take responsibility. So that felt pretty straight down the middle. And then where I wanted to go next was this idea of like,

justice as like a form of human progress. So like one read of history is that it's like us getting closer to the ideals that we all also are largely in agreement about. So I kind of like I tell this story of Thomas Clarkson, you know who Thomas Clarkson is? Thomas Clarkson is a student at Oxford and he gets this essay prompt, it's all in Latin, but the essay prompt is like, should a human being be able to own

and sell another human being? This is like the 1780s. And he just approaches it as like an ordinary assignment, but he's like, I'm gonna answer, the established view is that yes, of course, right? So he's like, like I'm gonna answer, like the established view is that, yes, of course, right? So he's like, I'm gonna answer it the opposite way, like to stand out. So he writes this essay on how like,

we shouldn't be able to own a person. And he wins because it was like a contrarian take. And then, so as he's leaving, he gets this prize, he's leaving to like go start his life. He's on this road outside London and it hits him. He's like, what if the question is serious? You know what I mean? He's like, what if actually a person,

he's like, what if I'm right? What if you shouldn't be able to own a person? And then he goes, and if I am right, what if I could be the person that changes this? And so Adam Hosschild does an amazing book on this called Bury the Chains. if I could be the person that changes this, you know? And so Adam Hosschild has an amazing book on this called Bury the Chains. But basically from this singular conversation on the side of a road in England,

he convenes this meeting of these 12 people in a print shop in London. And within like 20 years, the international slave, the slavery is abolished inside the empire and then the slave trade is abolished. And so this one dude just like single-handedly eliminates like one of the worst things that human beings have like ever done.

And so I'm thinking about justice in that sense, like the idea of like, not just like what should the world look like, but also like how tactically and practically does one bring this about? So the book sort of focuses more on that, like not just, like I think too much moral philosophy is about the theoretical questions of whether something is right or wrong.

Like his essay is not that interesting to me. It's how does he build an international coalition? And in the process of building this coalition, he basically creates the first consumer boycott, the first like media messaging, all these things that have never happened before. And then those abolitionists are some of the first people who are at Seneca Falls for women's rights.

And then that leads into, you know, the American Civil War and then civil rights. And so it all sort of stems from that thing. So the book is more about that. And so I think it's gonna be, I'm really proud of it. It was very challenging and difficult to put together because I feel like we're in this weird moment culturally where not only are we in disagreement on a lot of issues,

but then this big portion of society has decided that caring about other people at all is bad. Yeah, well, I like that it's focused on the implementation as well because I do think one of the big issues today is that there are a lot of correct ideas, but the implementation is absolutely awful. Totally.

And you can't necessarily separate those two things. Well, I was thinking about that. One of the stories they tell in the book, we talk about like, are you an ally or not? Right? Yes. You know who Harvey Milk is, right? Yeah.

Harvey Milk gets his start in politics because he's like sort of the unofficial mayor of the Castro district in San Francisco. And the Teamsters are boycotting Coors beer over a union contract. And they, so they're trying to get people to support the boycott by like boycotting drinking Coors beer over a union contract. And they, so they're trying to get people to support the boycott by like boycotting drinking Coors beer.

And so they go to Harvey Milk and they go, hey, like there's obviously a lot of gay bars in San Francisco, how can we get your community to not drink Coors? And he's like, oh, I can make that happen for you. He's like, if you hire gay truck drivers. And so like, we think of allies as like, are we in agreement?

Right? And Harvey Milk rightly saw allies as like, what can you do for me and what can I do for you? And his point, and so he ends up, they end up agreeing and then they back his first run, even though at the same time, all these teams who are saying these ridiculously homophobic, you know, like offensive,

like it's in no way approving of his lifestyle whatsoever. And it's just the horse trading between the two that make it work. But his point was like that in and of itself, not only did we accomplish this thing together, but the fact that we were in the same room together and working together is the starting of the larger sort of justice goal.

And so we often start from the other direction, which is like, we should all be friends, we should all totally like each other and express blanket approval of each other. And that's not how it should work at all. The system depends on us going, what do you want and what do I want? And how do we put the other shit aside to do that thing?

Yeah, there's definitely an intolerance now for opposing viewpoints. And it's funny, so I don't have a reference for this because I read it so long ago, but I remember when I was in college, I read a paper and blew my fucking mind. It was basically some, I think some political economists did this huge study across a bunch of countries and they found that actually the optimal amount of corruption is more than zero. Sure. Like it's still very little, but zero corruption was actually less optimal

than a little bit of corruption. And they argued that you need a little bit of corruption to get things done. Essentially, like you need to keep certain special interests happy. You need the horse trade and barter and maybe, you know, slip a 20 under the table every now and then to get something really good and important accomplished. Oh, I totally agree. And I talk about that in the book. So Lincoln lives in an incredibly corrupt political time, aside from the fact that you could just own

and buy and sell human beings. Yeah. Just the political system, it's all this patronage system. And in fact, that was like the bane of his existence, just people always coming in the office, wanting things for him as he's trying to run a civil war. And they were saying that though early in his career, because people don't think of Lincoln as a politician, which he was,

he was a lifelong politician. And they were saying he'd perfected in the Illinois legislature, the art of log rolling, which is like basically same as horse training. They were saying, so Lincoln was an expert at log rolling, but he himself never had a price. And so the idea is, I think exactly what you're saying, it's understanding that corruption exists and understanding that that's the system as it operates while you yourself try to be as incorruptible as possible. And obviously the Spielberg movie on Lincoln

is all about Lincoln understanding, okay, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments are some of the most important things that are ever gonna happen in the history of America. How do we prevent, how do we save all these future generations from slavery? But then he also goes, we have an imperfect political system.

So within some bounds, give me my fucking votes. Right? That's what that movie is. But that's also what actually happens. He's like, I'm the president. That scene where he goes, I am the president of the United States, clothe an immense power. You will procure me these votes.

He basically does say that exact thing. And he's like, whatever is at my disposal politically, financially, where do I have fucking leverage past this thing? And that is a necessary element of political systems, that to be a moral philosopher is to exempt yourself. I think Kennedy said something like that. He's like, parents want their kids to grow up to be president, not to be politicians.

But the president is the ultimate politician. And if you don't understand how that works, you're not gonna get anything done. I also remember, I don't remember where I heard this, but one of the theories of why the current US government is so just gridlocked and sclerotic is because of the extra transparency of those corrupt processes.

So it used to be these things would happen behind closed doors and then closed door meetings in Congress. And now everybody has access to everything. Everything's getting leaked online. There's like everything is live streamed everywhere and it's things go viral within minutes. So politicians don't feel the liberty to like have those discussions anymore they have to stay on message 24 7 365 which means nothing gets done there's no compromise one of

the things I think you get when you study history is you realize how many bad people did good things yeah and how many how many how many good people it's not that they did bad things it's actually worse how many good people, it's not that they did bad things, it's actually worse, how many good people were not able to do good things. Like there's no question Lyndon Johnson is way more racist than Kennedy, right? And Kennedy gives way better speeches about race, but one passes civil rights and the other doesn't. I mean, obviously one gets assassinated

so that put a, you know, a criminal thing, but like he wouldn't, he just didn't have the votes. Johnson was an expert vote counter, an expert horse trader, and he would also break your fucking neck, you know? And you need that to accomplish things. And if you think that politics is like giving fancy speeches or, you know, like saying and believing the right things, you're doing something other than politics.

Yeah. But now this gets back into, okay, where's the virtue in this? Well, so one of the famous stories about the Stoics, there's Soccato is the preeminent Roman of his time and the dire threat to the Republic is Julius Caesar. And so the unattached variable there, the swing vote is Pompey. Pompey is the great military man of the time.

And so he comes back after kicking ass all over the empire and he's the non-attached political actor. He's like Eisenhower coming home after World War II. Is he going to be a Democrat or is he going to be a Republican? And in this case, is he literally going to be a Republican or is he going to just get rich with Caesar? And so his first instinct being actually a student of philosophy is Cato. Cato's the most virtuous, greatest man.

So he goes to Cato and he proposes a marriage alliance, which is how political, you know, there are no political parties then. So we have to fuse our families together via a marriage alliance. And we don't know if it was like his daughter, what are Cato's daughters or a niece or whatever, but basically Cato,

Pompey's like, let's get together, I should marry into your family. And all the women in Cato's family are like, we love him, this is a great idea, this is good for us. And Cato's like, I will not be bought. He was like, he was like, my allegiance will not be purchased by way of women's apartments. And this is like the Cato, this is the stoic

being above everything, not being a politician, but being a man of virtue, right? So what does Pompey do? He marries Julius Caesar's daughter instead. He goes, he goes, oh, you don't want me? Well, they want me over here. And so Plutarch goes, the irony is Cato in this moment of purity,

commits the worst sin you could possibly imagine, which is he turns away an ally and then allows that ally to ally with his worst enemy. It's like not lying to the Nazi at the door. Yes, that's exactly what it is. So you weren't bribed, but you allowed that person to take a bribe or an alliance with someone else.

And then you bring about the thing that your life's work was dedicated to preserving. And so maybe Cato could sleep at night saying, I've never been corrupted and I did the right thing. But how could you not look at the civil war which follows and the destruction of the Republic, which had stood for eternity as also your responsibility. So I guess the question is,

you're saying like, where does virtue come into it? There's also virtue, there's also the opposite of virtue in allowing the thing to happen. But being, like, where is, like, so let's say politics is a dirty, nasty business. So does the philosopher retreat to the garden, like the Epicureans?

Right. Maybe, but the shit's still happening. Yeah. You're just not smelling it or touching it. And I guess some of this is just rhetorical because it kind of comes back to the earlier conversation of shit's complicated. And there's almost never a clear cut answer.

I saw a thing recently, I forget again, I forgot who said it, but they were talking about empires throughout history. And the quote was, it was like, what people don't understand is that if you're an empire, there's no such thing as not acting. If you do something, it changes the world. If you don't do something, it changes the world. And so there is no moral choice. Like it's pure trade-off. And I think there's a lot of things in life that are true like that. And it's this idea of like good and evil. It's like the Solzhenitsyn thing. Not only does it run

through the heart of every man, it often runs through the middle of every decision. There's going to be some degree of good and evil in each direction you take, and you just hope to pick the one with more good in it. Well, interventionism is like the quintessential example of this, right? Especially if you're an empire. So Kennedy's big mistake is that he drags us into Vietnam. And this is clearly something

we shouldn't have done in retrospect. But the other stain on the Kennedy family is that his father is the ambassador to England in the 1930s. And he's an appeaser slash isolationist slash maybe outright Nazi sympathizer, right? And is pretty instrumental in like fooling the American public and himself

about like what was obviously happening and what the moral imperative of everyone being involved, of everyone in the world at that moment was, right? And so Kennedy would later, he would give all these speeches and he'd say stuff like, the only thing that we have to fear is when good men do nothing.

None of those are actual quotes. He's like wrenching them from contract, but I'm saying they weren't factual. In the book, I say they're not factual quotes, but they're pretty Freudian. He's responding to the fact that he watched his dad be complicit in probably the worst thing of the 20th century happening.

And so he overcorrects, I think. But the idea that you can sit there and sit it out is the delusion that you could argue that's the common thread throughout history is the idea that like you can not take a stand, you can not get involved and that it doesn't come back to you in some way or form, as it does.

Yeah. A lack of a vote is still a vote. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And then, I mean, like there was an election here in this little town that I'm in, there was a city council election

that was decided by two votes. Wow. You know? And like, so that's, like voting is such a good example, too, where like you can think about it philosophically, mathematically, whatever, and obviously voting doesn't matter, right? Like depending on what state you're in,

depending on voter turnout, the chance of your vote not making a difference is almost a certainty. And yeah, if everyone thought that, voting would definitely not matter. We're coming back to communism. We're just circling through all the schools of thought right now. But don't you think it just comes down to like, voting is obviously the right thing to do?

Do you know what? It's not that complicated. It's like you're outsmarting yourself when just like, obviously, you have a chance to have a say in in election, you should just have that say. Yeah. For sure. For sure. It's so weird. So what have we accomplished here? Like where are we? This is always what happens when I like go deep into moral philosophy.

I just like, I just feel like I'm walking in circles. But don't you think that's kind of it, which is like, at the core of it, life's fucking complicated? It is. I think even your book, Everything is Fucked, a book about hope, it's paradox and contradiction. Yeah. And to people who are not able to sit with paradox and contradiction. You're going to have a bad time.

Yeah, it's either you're too simple and that's why you can't do it or you're too complex and that's why you can't do it, but it's the same stupid. Yeah. Yeah, the results the same. I feel like Zen is better, like the Eastern tradition is better with that

than the Western tradition. 100%, 100%. And honestly, that's, so a big part of my background is Zen. And that is what drew me to it because I grew up, I grew up around here, but it was a very different place at the time. Very different.

You know, I grew up in a traditional, very Christian, middle American upbringing. There's a lot of Jesus. And it didn't sit, like the observation between like what people said at church and then how they behaved outside of church just didn't sit well with me. And I got very into philosophy and psychology in my teens and started discovering a lot of these concepts.

And it wasn't until I found Zen that it like embraced the paradox of the human experience, embraced the contradictions and said, you know what? Just sit with it. You don't have to answer it. It's all kind of true at the same time. Guy Raz's How I Built This is a podcast where each week he talks to the founders behind the world's biggest companies to learn the real stories of how they built them. In each episode,

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How I Built This, and many more. Wondery means business. The only way I feel like Zen falls short and why that sort of is like, again, it is easier, or maybe we just don't celebrate enough that a lot of these Eastern philosophies had to resolve the contradictions or paradoxes because they weren't just like wandering monks

thinking about things. That's part of the tradition, it's a large part of the tradition, but Confucius is like a Machiavellian figure of his day, and you have samurai, Zen warrior, Confucius is like a Machiavellian figure of his day, you know? And you have samurai, Zen warrior, you have people who were like actively engaged in life also. And so they would have at some point had to resolve the contradictions

or at least make less than perfect decisions based on this information. Where that's what I like about this from the stoic and the Western tradition is like, again, they're not just thinking about it the way that a Harvard professor would be today and be like, and then you guys take this and do what, they were doing it.

They were having to go this way or that way because to not make a choice is a worse choice. And it's probably, that's probably why those traditions have endured for so long, right? Like it's, they were men in the arena who were doing big things at the time, making extremely difficult choices, and then also ruminating about it

and documenting some of their thoughts. Yeah. You know what's weird? I do feel like it can be very easy to like break your own brain. The intellectual dark web being a great example of a group of people that have effectively broken their own brain. The intellectual dark web being a great example of a group of people that have effectively broken their own brain. Like if you told me like five years ago or six years ago

whenever that movement was starting to and I liked a lot of those guys, a lot of them were interesting. If you flash forward and you'd be like, this is where they all are today. I would be like, no way. These are rationalists. These are intelligent people. These are considered people, not all of them, but some of them. And then you're looking at the wreckage of it and you go, what the fuck happened?

I mean, it's a great example of the limits of rationality. I think rationality is very optimal in a localized sense. Like on a very specific small problem, you wanna be as rational as possible, but in the grand scheme of things, there are too many variables. There's too much information. There's too much contradictory information.

There are contradictory impulses. And so ultimately we all start leaning into our biases. And if we're not checking ourselves regularly, they can just sweep us away. Yeah, and contrarianism is a way to have some original thoughts and then also to have a lot of stupid thoughts. Absolutely.

It's like, be right in a big way, one out of 10, and just be wrong about the other nine things. I feel like Twitter is another variable. It's like what's also interesting is how extremely online all those people became. Yes. And that I think is probably the largest contributor to brain rot. Well, I have so one thing I've noticed recently. I definitely think there's a temptation of the conspiracy

theory audience. Like I personally think the conspiracy theory audience by definition is people with nothing better to do than sit on YouTube and Twitter all day and come up with theories and argue about them. And so if you are a content creator, the conspiracy theory audience is low-hanging fruit. It's a very easy way to get millions of views or millions of clicks on something. And so, and as a content creator, I get that temptation.

I totally sympathize with that temptation. It's a large, latent, high intensity audience. So you touch it and your things blow up. And it doesn't have to be that well-formed, doesn't have to be correct. It could be just, I'm just asking questions. Exactly, and it's actually better if it's not well-formed or correct.

Yeah, yeah. But, so yeah, and it's interesting too, I think the smarter you are outside of the conspiracy theory, which a lot of those guys are absolutely, incredibly intelligent, the more credence it gives you when you're just asking questions, right? So it's like, look at this guy, he's got like five PhDs. And you know.

They're usually the people who are, become famous for one conspiracy theorist, theory have a very strong expertise or mastery of an unrelated but equally obscure subject. So it's like the person who is talking about this or that is never an expert in this or that, but they're an expert in linguistics or an expert in mathematics or an expert in this.

And so you go, oh, this guy's not an idiot. And then they're also articulate and whatever, but they're not usually like speaking from decades of experience in that field that they're propagating some conspiracy theory. And I'm personally coming to the conclusion that smart people generally have the worst political opinions

because I just think that they, because they're so smart in some unrelated field, they convince themselves that they must be smart. There's apparels of ego right there. Right, about everything. And I generally find the most intelligent political takes are just random people that I run into at a diner or, it's just common sense, man.

I mean, a lot of idiots in diners too, but I get what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, I feel like the average, not uneducated, but not over-educated American is probably gonna have more realistic and healthier political views than somebody with five PhDs. Have you heard that expression, like their mind so open their brain fell out?

Yeah, it was Carl Sagan. Yeah, I think that's a lot of the sort of, like just asking questions. I'm just curious. You know, like, so you become, it's almost like what happens is you find some area where everything's not what it seems, and then you're now open to, like,

nothing being what it seems. Yes. And so then you end up, you have nothing that you're standing on. And this is the seduction of conspiracy theories is because it's like one out of 10 turns out to be true. And so people are like, that was true. That actually happened. You know, what else aren't they telling you? And then so they start buying into all of them,

forgetting that the vast majority of them are not gonna be true. Yeah, it's weird though. Like I think Sam Harris has done well and I still like him and he's smart, but like the rest of them, I'm like, what happened to you? It's like, if you took like Jordan Peterson six or seven years ago,

and then you put Jordan Peterson now, it you took like Jordan Peterson six or seven years ago, and then you put Jordan Peterson now, it's almost like one of those like before and after meth photos. And I'm not making a commentary on his, his physical appearance or his issue with medications. I'm saying like, bro, what happened to you? Dude, my favorite meme right now, have you seen this? There's like an interview clip of Peterson and he's like, bro, what happened to you? Do my favorite meme right now, have you seen this?

There's like an interview clip of Peterson and he's like, but it begs the question, what is is? What do you mean by is? What is the definition of has been? And he like goes into this like one minute and people like keep putting this text of like, my wife, when she says I have an alcohol problem. It's like-

No, no, the best one is him going like, you gotta clean your room and make your bed. And then it's like a shot of him in his studio and it's like the filthiest fucking thing you've ever seen in your life. No, to me that's also though, I think he, like it's almost unfair to be like, oh, this is all conspiracy theory stuff.

Because that's not what happened. To me that's ego, that's fame, that's what happens when you do more talking than you do thinking or reading. Do you know what I mean? And it's a wicked downward spiral that can just, and then you get like, to me at this point, it's almost this,

like Emperor has no clothes situation, where like his reputation is based on many years ago, like even before he was a public figure, and not like if you looked at what he said yesterday, you'd be like, this person is obviously fucking nuts. We should not go near anything or anyone. Do you know what I mean? It's been a weird descent into madness.

I feel like, I mean, I don't want to rip on him too much. I sympathize with him. I feel like he's getting into a lot of religious stuff. And I feel like that's actually what he kind of always wanted to talk about. And I feel like he got sidetracked. He got swept up in kind of a political moment and it took him down a wild path. And it seems like he's trying to get back to the thing that he probably

just wanted to talk about in the first place. I bet it's the opposite. I bet it's going towards the religious thing because then he can be the center of the religion. I think it's a messianistic, you know, like complex. A messiah complex? Yeah. Time shall tell. It's dark, man. I see those guys and I go there, but for the grace of God,

like I see that that's audience capture, that's being extremely online, that's like not being balanced in your personal and like your personal life, your health. It's like, it can just, it's what happens if you suddenly get lots of attention and lots of money and you get used to the sound of your own voice. Yeah.

It is interesting. How do you manage that? I mean, I try to like live here instead of like, you know, in LA or San Francisco or New York. And then that's like, that's been a part of it. I try to live like a very normal life, like where like I make school lunches and I take my kids to school and I pick them up.

And then I try to also spend the bulk of my time doing the same thing that I've always done, which is like read books and write. Yeah. You know, like I know you're doing podcasting now, which is really cool. I think one of the things that's really dangerous about podcasting is it's so much easier than writing.

Yes, it is. And so- I don't want to call it easy money, but it's out of everything I've done, it is the easiest money. Well, I'm not even saying about the money. It's just so much like writing is inherently humbling and ass kicking and takes, it can't be rushed.

And it's subjected to this incredibly high bar of like, you have to make something that's worth hours of people's time that they pay for, you know, in physical form. And it doesn't scale, you know, it's like all the, so like that's something that I think can keep you in check. I mean, obviously there's monsters who have been writers like Hemingway, et cetera, but like,

it kicks your ass in a way that talk radio, like show me some that talk radio, like show me some great talk radio people who weren't monster. Like, you know, it's a bad, it's a medium built around bloviating. No, I think that's a good point is that the practice of writing itself is humbling

because you are confronted with the fragility of your own thoughts and ideas. Like you are forced to recognize that at least 50% of the ideas you put on the page are not as good as you thought they were. And should probably be deleted and should not be seen by anybody, right? Whereas yeah, talk radio or podcasting,

you don't have that. There's also like, I guess like a facsimile of audience capture, which would be like podcast guest capture. don't have that. There's also like, I guess like a facsimile of audience capture, which would be like podcast guest capture. I've seen this. So for instance, you know, we were just trashing Peterson. I'm not gonna lie, one of my first thoughts was like, ah shit, this is gonna go out

and he's never gonna come on my podcast. I'd like. Yeah, I thought about it too. Yeah, and then. I try to get myself to where I don't let that. But I thought the same thing. Yeah, and it. It'd be easier not to say anything.

And I've seen, I'm not gonna name names, but I've seen a number of big podcasters bring on complete hacks and frauds with large audiences and sit there and smile and nod and ask them all the questions they wanna be asked and pretend like it's a legitimate thing. And that's upsetting. Yes.

And I really, on the one hand, I don't want to get sucked into that, but see for me, so the way I manage this, I live in LA, I don't have kids, but the way I manage it is I very intentionally try to make it a part of my brand that nobody's right all the time, including myself. And one of the things I repeat to my audience

over and over again is I don't care what, there is no, you can go through all the research, there is not a single psychological intervention that has 100% hit rate. In fact, almost none of them have a 50% hit rate. And even if it does hit for somebody, it never solves everything. So whatever you find, all we're talking about here

are just tools in a toolbox. Stoicism, tool in a toolbox. Therapy, tool in a toolbox. Meditation, tool in a toolbox. Like let's never lose sight of that because our natural impulse, just as humans, is to find this thing that helped us and turn it into a religion. Turn it into everything. And that this is going

to, it saved me, it's going to save the world and everybody needs to hear about it all the time. And I just like, I've basically built a message around the opposite of that. And so that probably puts a lower ceiling on my audience than some of these people. And I mean, sometimes when I sit looking at my analytics, that's like hurts, but in the long run, I think that probably also gives me a longevity that a lot of other people aren't gonna have. I try to just never look at analytics. I think that's an, like the more insulated,

you wanna have people who, since you do have a team, you wanna have people who can give you red flags, like hey, something's horribly wrong or whatever, but you don't, it's not safe or sane to have access to real time. It's like being a, it's like the thumbs up or the thumbs down in the arena. Like, you don't want the mob to say

whether you deserve to live or die. Like, with the Daily Stoke email, it's like, I have to be able to write what I say is important. That's what built it, not what the audience likes or doesn't like. But doesn't, the audience does need to be one piece of feedback. Yeah, of course, but it's more like,

it's not that, hey, this is a one-way conversation, but it's like, I've said this before, it's like, I didn't build, it's like, do I have the audience or does the audience have me? That's what audience capture is bumping up against. And I think a lot, if you come at it from a fragiler place or if you're maybe ambitious in a certain way

or money is what you live and die by, like that's very, it's very hard to stay on or stay true to your sense of what's good, what's important, what you like, what's true, you know? And then you find yourself winking at the audience and nudging, and then all of a sudden you're just like, I just tell them what they wanna hear. You know what I mean?

And first off, that's like not a great place to make good art. That's also not good for your soul. And then also it's fucking wrong. Like that's the other justice component that I think a lot about. Like I know I can make a lot more money with daily stoic if I never talked about any component of stoicism

other than its benefits to your personal like habits and productivity. And you're gonna make more money and yeah, all that stuff. So anytime I talk about the fact that the Stokes have, one of the four virtues is justice, people are like, why are you doing this? What would Seneca say about you talking about politics? And I go, well, Seneca was the most important politician at this time.

So probably you get with it. These guys were in politics. Like literally. But no, the decision to go like, I have a platform, the most important politician of his time. So probably... These guys were in politics. But no, the decision to go like, I have a platform, I have an audience, and there's actually a responsibility to it. And it's first off, just never to be the person that tells people what they want to hear, because it's a shitty... But also like, yeah, I just, I watch people platform with their podcasts or their like just, let's not even say like people who are like, you know, a little far afield, but just like people who are actively harming the world because they know it will be good

for their numbers. Right. It's disgusting. Totally. It's, I've been asked probably 50 times to do a video article about Andrew Tate. And I won't for exactly that reason. But you could also say a bunch of Andrew Tate-esque things

and get that audience. But you also choose not to do that. Absolutely, totally. And yeah, I mean, you realize if you go in certain directions, certain doors will open to you. And if you go in other directions, certain doors will open to you, and if you go in other directions, certain doors will close to you. Yes.

If you say this thing, it closes off your ability to get access to these kinds of people, or this kind of money, or these kinds of advertisers. And you gotta go, I just go, look, obviously I wanna be successful, I wanna be well compensated for what I do, I don't wanna to leave like a dollar on the table that's rightfully mine, right?

But I go, I chose to write about an obscure school of ancient philosophy, why would I then be like, and how could I make the most money? You know, like I already, like there's so much. You've already overshot like any expectation. Yeah, I put a ceiling on it. I don't then need to like scrounge for shit over here. You know what I mean?

So it's like, or in you, like both you and I could, Casey Neistat said this to me once. He's like, if all we cared about was money, we'd just be in advertising. Yeah. You know? And so he's like, we chose not to do that. So like why then in the,

when you turned away from advertising and thus, you know, essentially unlimited money. Yeah. Are you then making primarily financially motivated decisions? Yeah. I, I, I had this conversation with Morgan Houseau about why that happens.

And I think one of the really interesting things about money and this actually ties into the analytics thing as well. I think there's, there's a tendency to gravitate to those things because they're so legible. They're clear. They're easily measurable. I can look at how many views I got this month

versus how many views I got last month, and I know if it's better or worse. There's some degree of satisfaction of removing that ambiguity because I get to feel a sense of progress or a sense of like, oh shit, I need to change something. It's the same thing with money. Like it's good.

We always like to say like, oh look, I made 10% more than I made last year. Like that's progress, I'm growing. So it's easy to get sidetracked into those things if you're not careful. And you do want to have some degree of that. Like you do wanna make more this year than you made last year.

But yeah, it's balancing it with integrity, like keeping your integrity, not compromising integrity, balancing it with your creative drive and what interests you without succumbing to the audience capture. And I tend to find that the people that I admire the most, one of the things I'll admire, I'll hear like, oh, did you know so-and-so was offered,

I don't know, a bunch of money to do a cigarette commercial and they said no. Or, you know, so-and-so was offered this and they said no. Like, I like that. I mean, it's funny, because we were just talking about the Kato thing where he said no, like I like that. I mean, it's funny, because we were just talking about the Cato thing where he said no to Poppy, but like when you hear people make sort of decisions

based on their inner sense of what's right and wrong, even though it costs them financially, that tends to age pretty well. Yeah. You know? And so what is the point of having achieved success or earned more than you need? If you then only make the decisions based on what will make you more than or less,

it's crazy. Like what's the point of having it? You'd think that being successful would make you more independent and oftentimes it makes people less independent or less independent because what they've really done is just turned themselves, self over to making as much as possible.

And it's so easy to start doing it. Like that is the natural impulse. Yes. And it's, you have to actively work against it. You know, you have to actively push yourself back upstream. Totally. Because that's just where your brain's gonna naturally

take you. Have you been invited to speak in Saudi Arabia? I'm curious. This came up with- I actually did. Okay, so- Did you go? So I got a talk, I got a talk several years ago in Dubai.

Okay. And I went and I felt okay about it. Yeah, Dubai, I've done Dubai. And it was also somewhere I wanted to go. And I did some other stuff while I was there. I felt good about it. And then, it's funny, in the Justice book, I talk about the live golf league.

And I didn't love it. I didn't love the way that happened. And anyways, I think it's an interesting case study of what people's price is and whatever. And then as I'm writing it, I got an offer to do a talk for obviously not $400 million. Yes. But the author speaking for you equivalent of $400 million.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, in my world, and I was like, I don't feel good about it, I don't like it, and I didn't like it when other people were doing it, and the fact that I'm gonna use this to develop that, it's always good to develop that muscle of being, not having fuck you money, but having the no thanks, I'd rather not, I didn't send them some huge note

voicing my objections, but I didn't, I didn't, you know, send them some huge note voicing my, my objections, but I just said, sorry, it doesn't work for scheduling reasons. And I did. Yeah. I asked that actually this came up, I was out with some childhood friends last night and, came up last night that I, so I got, I was invited to speak. They, I think they offered 150 K for a 30 minute talk.

Yeah. And I turned it down And my friends were like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, what are you thinking? Why are you here right now? Go get on a plane. But I feel good about that decision. Like I don't-

You usually do. Yeah, I don't, that's not one of the things I, it's funny actually when it comes to like speaking gigs, most of my regrets are accepting the ones that like, there were probably five better things I could have been doing instead of speaking in wherever I was. I have a weird connection to that story,

which is that we did it, I did a Daily Stoic email like several years ago about this great Bill Cunningham quote where he says, if you don't take the money, they can't tell you what to do. And it was about how the great stoics tried to be sort of independent financially in that sense, right? Like Zeno, one of the founders of socialism,

he never accepted money from kings, which is the way that philosophers used to make their money because then he thought it would sort of corrupt him. So I was sort of talking about that. And then a couple of days later, Roy McElroy is giving an interview about the Live Golf League, which is just then sort of rumored to be starting.

And they asked her, are you gonna do it and blah, blah, and he goes, you know, if you don't take the money, they can't tell you what to do. And he's like, I have never found that the things you do with life solely for money tend to be the right decision. And so all these people emailed me and they were like, I have never found that the things you do with life solely for money tend to be the right decision. And so all these people emailed me and they were like, I think Rory gets like the Daily Stoke. He must subscribe to the Daily Stoke.

And I go, that can't possibly be true. And so I typed into the thing. I was like, and he does, he got it. And so I think that story is so fascinating. Because so he decides that it's bad for golf and that it's not a good sort, like that although there's nothing wrong with the people of Saudi Arabia,

the country of Saudi Arabia using billions of dollars of what is, you know, not the most morally pure money to whitewash its definitely not morally pure regime, is not great, right? And he decides not to do it. And I'm sure that number was large at first and got larger and larger and larger. And he watched other people get,

who are much less talented than him, get obscene amounts of money for it, right? And so you, but he's sort of held up as this hero. It's great. It's a great example of how the world actually works, which is, what does he get for all that? PJ fucks him and merges or is attempting to merge with the very league that not only he spoke out against,

but he was taking both, like he was the spokesman of the PJ's objections voicing all the reasons why it would be wrong to go to that league. And then they just turn around and it turns out they have a price, right? Or that there's a limit to their ideals. And I think that's a great example though, because like, first off, it's hard to do the right thing.

And it's often expensive to do the right thing. But we tell ourselves, the very least, I'm gonna be appreciated for it and it's gonna work out in the end. Which is not how it fucking works. You know? Like, you do the right thing because it's the right thing. And you should probably anticipate the cherry on top

being disliked for it, not appreciated for it. And then watching other people do that same thing and totally getting away with it, or in fact, it works out for them. Right. Well, and this comes back to why bad people have sometimes done the right thing, because they expect a reward for it.

You know, and I would say ultimately, what being a good person is, is doing the right thing for no other reason than it's the right thing. Like with no expectation of reward, punishment, like it just, this is the right thing. Yeah. Although like, and it's not always like, I'm not going to do business with, you know, a murderous, tyrannical regime in the Middle East. It's more like, hey, I don't know, do you wanna take gambling ads for your podcast?

And then I go, well, I don't gamble, I don't think it's a great, I just don't, I'm not making some huge moral stand by, I'm just like, that's not for me. Or then it gets subtler where it's like, somebody wants you to say that you use this product, but you use this other one. Is that like, and you know, it's not always,

they're trying to, you're the judge of a case and they're offering you a large bribe to rule the other way. It's almost always so much subtler than that. And it's also not this one singular moment, but it's like an endless series of shitty choices that you have to make. Yeah, and it's, yeah, most of them are in a gray area.

Yeah, and it's clear only in retrospect, whether you made the right decision or the wrong decision. Right, yeah. The advertising thing is interesting, because I just started doing that and it's, um, and yeah, I, I, I've been kind of a hard ass about it. I don't know. I, so I took this weird, I took a, almost a year off in 2022. I got extremely burnt out. And when I came back, when I started working again, one of the agreements I made with myself is that

if it's not fun, I'm not gonna do it. If it's not exciting, I'm not gonna do it. So I mean, half of the Saudi Arabia thing, I'd love to stand here and be like, I am completely against Middle East. I'm like, dude, I don't have time for that shit. I don't need the money. I'm happy.

So it's part that too. But it's made a very, very strong stance of like I'm only gonna do it if it's fun, and if I'm excited to do it, if I'm like fully 100% enthusiastic about it. Like if it's like a fuck yes or fuck no situation, is that what you're saying? Exactly, yeah.

Somebody should write that down. It's interesting. I think or fuck no situation, is that what you're saying? Exactly, yeah, yeah. Somebody should write that down. I think I read a good article about that. Yeah, yeah, right. So it's been interesting seeing how that winds into the different parts of my career. And I'm trying to apply that to advertisers too. It's like most of the brands that sponsor my stuff,

I use them and I really like them. And then you get some that it's like, well, seems like a good brand, but I don't give a shit. And I don't know where I fall on that stuff. And I don't even know if it matters. People probably wouldn't even notice or care. And I imagine most of my listeners wouldn't notice or care, but I'm really trying to, coming back to like

not compromising your integrity, I could say that there's not just a moral component to that, but there's also just like a personal, like a self-respect component of that. Totally. Of like not taking on things that are not in your own best interest, mentally and emotionally. And so yeah, that's been,

that's actually been the more difficult navigation, like all those gray areas that just keep happening. Right, which brings us right back to where we started, which is that it's all gray areas and it's not really that clear. Have we solved anything today? I don't think so. I don't think there's, but there's nothing to solve. Is there anything to solve? Is there anything to solve? Yeah. and it's not help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. You know, if I would have applied myself, I could have gone to the NBA. You think so? Yeah, I think so.

But it's just like it's been done. You know, I didn't want to, I was like, I don't want to be a follower. Hi, I'm Jason Concepcion. And I'm Shea Serrano. And we are back. We have a new podcast from Wondery. It's called Six Trophies. And this is the best.

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