The Daily Stoic - Zach Braff on Healing and Helping with Art and Stoicism

Episode Date: March 25, 2023

Ryan speaks with Zach Braff about his new Stoicism-inspired movie A Good Person, how the idea of Amor fati has helped him translate recent personal trauma into art, what he has learned about supporting people who need help in the wake of a friend’s tragedy, and more.Zach Braff is an actor, voice actor, director, screenwriter, and entrepreneur. He is most known for his starring role on the TV comedy Scrubs (2001-2010), for which he was nominated for the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Comedy Series as well as for three Golden Globe Awards, and in his directorial debut Garden State (2004), which he also wrote and starred in. Zach has also directed a second feature film (Wish I Was Here in 2014) and the hit Apple TV show Ted Lasso (2021) for which he was nominated for a Directors Guild of America Award. His new movie A Good Person is scheduled for release on March 24, 2023.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoke. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stokes. Something to help you live up to those four Stoke virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives

and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down be sure to take some time to think to go for a walk to sit with your journal and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey it's Ryan Holiday welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoke Podcast. This is a very special episode for me. I've had the surreal experience over the last couple years as the Daily Stoke Instagram has blown up, as my own Instagram has creeped up north, something

like 500 and whatever thousand followers. Sometimes I'll get a note from the person who helps me run the accounts. Her name is Chelsea. It should be like, do you know who just started following you today? And sometimes it's a people I haven't heard of. Sometimes it's people with tons and tons of followers in some niche. And I go, that's really cool. And then sometimes I go, you're kidding me. No way.

Because that person's work has been super influential to me or they occupy some nostalgic or significant place in my own growing up. And so when Chelsea let me know that Zach Braff was following, that Zach Braff, I think was following me personally and not daily still, or something, I was just like, this cannot possibly be real. And yet it was and that's what led to today's episode.

He and I have gone back and forth over DMs and texts over the last several months and he was nice enough to let me see his new movie, A Good Person, which is absolutely incredible. As I was telling them, I watched a part of it on a plane and was quite overwhelmed with emotion, which to me only happens with really, really good movies. And it was extra cool for me because I watched Garden State when it came out. I've seen probably every episode of Scrubs. I remember watching them in my bedroom in high school on my computer. And this was just an absolute treat for me. And it was extra mind blowing. I don't want to have any spoilers.

There are some spoilers in this episode, but please listen anyway. It was amazing, surreal, overwhelming to watch this beautiful touching, brilliantly done movie, and to see stoicism and ideas that I have talked about in my books, and that apparently made their way to SAC appear in said movie. And that was just, I told my wife after I was like,

you cannot believe the idea that this movie hinges on, not like in the sense of there's illusions to it, but like no, it is a pivotal part of the movie. And I was just so touched and overwhelmed. And then also just loved it as a fan. So a good person is in theaters March 24th. You can stream Garden State on any of the streaming platforms. I rewatched it on HBO Max yesterday. And you can of course watch Scrubs on streaming sites too. Great show. I think a very underrated comedy.

And was just a wonderful thing to experience during high school. Zach is a director and actor, a screenwriter. He's also done voice work. He was in chicken little, Oz, the great and powerful, and Bojack Horseman. He's opened a restaurant. He has a hilarious podcast with his co-star inscrubs, Donald Faizon called Fake Doctors Real Friends. And his new movie, starting the one and only Morgan Freeman,

is in theaters as you're listening to this. I am almost certain it will, it came out on March 24th. You can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at Zach Braff with two F's. Thank you so much to Zach for coming on the podcast. And I hope you all enjoy this episode. The Daily Stoke Podcast with Zach Braff talking about a good person.

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business, but I'm sure that you're going to be interested in the journal, obviously I turn to stochism, but I also turn to my therapist, which I've had for a long time and has helped me through a bunch of stuff. And because I'm so busy and I live out in the country, I do therapy remote, so I don't have to drive somewhere. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Toxbase makes it easy to find a therapist that you like. It's convenient, it's affordable. By doing everything online, Toxbase makes getting the help you want easy and affordable. So why wait? And Talkspace can help with any specific challenge you might be facing.

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stoic. Are you good? Yeah, I'm good. I love the movie, although I will say I finished the second half on an airplane and that was maybe an awkward choice Because you were going to be emotional. Yes, very much so. I mean it was the second half of the movie is devastating And then ultimately sort of redeeming but but quite devastating. Yeah, I probably should have watched it alone in my house Yeah, well, that's my favorite kind of film to be honest I really am drawn to things

that make us think about our own lives and hurt a little bit in a good way because they make us self-reflective and at a certain point we hold our heart and go out. But also I try and do my own specific tone where you're kind of laughing throughout. Which is how I feel these situations are. When one goes through grief, there are moments where laughter is saving you. And so I try to write a film, if I could write a film about grief and addiction and redemption, I wanted to have it be like my own experience of that, which involved a lot of laughter.

When your own experience has been a rough couple of years, right? Yeah, I lost my sister first to an aneurysm. She had an aneurysm in 2016 and survived for a couple of years as a shell of herself, and then passed. And then my father didn't, you know, he was 84, but he was defeated by cancer pretty soon after that. I think it just took it such a toll on him and And then and then during COVID during this during lockdown my best friend moved into my guesthouse because he was

Stammer's Nick Cordero. He was a beloved Broadway star and he and his wife Amanda Clutz and their baby moved into I have a little guest cottage behind my house And they moved into it while they were searching for a home in LA I have this little guest cottage behind my house, and they moved into it while they were searching for a home in LA. They found a home in LA, and then they went back to New York to get their things. And when they came back, he got COVID so bad, he was hospitalized, and fought as long and hard as he could. But he was defeated by it at 41 years old.

So I really, really have been grieving a lot in the last four years or more. When I sat down to write something authentic during the pandemic, that's all my brain really wanted to talk about. Yeah, when I haven't been somewhat familiar with that, I, there's this quote by Borgis that I was thinking of when I watched your movie. And tell me if you think it applies. He says, a writer and I believe generally all persons must think that whatever happens to him or her is a resource. All things have been given to us for a purpose and an artist must feel this more intensely.

All that happens to us, including our humiliations, our misfortunes, our embarrassments, all is given to us as raw material as clay so that we may shape our art. I think about it as far as everyone goes through grief and devastation and loss, but the one benefit that artists have, the one solace that artists have, that other people don't get is the ability or the tools or the canvas to create something out of that that gives us something to throw ourselves into and then also is maybe good or useful or reassuring to other people in that process. That is so well said, Ryan, and that's how I feel.

You know, if I feel the best storytelling that I know how to do is when I write from my experience, and write from a very authentic place for better, for worse. That's what I did when I wrote Garden State at 25 years old. I was just writing a version of my life, not necessarily exactly my life at all, but really what I was obsessing about, what was keeping me depressed and anxious. And I thought, gosh, there's got to be some people out there.

It might be 25 or 30 people, but there's got to be somebody else out there who can relate to this, because I'm not that unusual or weird. There's got to be people that can relate. And that's what I do with this one, too, as I just kind of, I felt, well, let me write about, I should say, I don't write about the specific anecdotes I told you about my family. But I used that pain. And I used that pain and that desire to stand back up from it and funneled it into a story.

And also my witnessing of people that are on the front lines because Amanda Clutz, whose next widow, is one of my best friends. And watched how you know I was I just remember thinking how is this woman gonna stand back up this is devastating I'm devastated and I'm his friend and I'm not I'm not a sign to raise a baby now alone I'm not a sign to try and make a living now alone without a partner. And we just bought a house and I just remember thinking, fucking hell, this woman has been thrown so much on her plate.

And then I watched community surround her and love surround her from all angles. And I thought, that's what I want to write about. I want to write about how we stand up again and the power of friendship and love to help us do it. That's a really interesting word there that you use though, assigned. It's a very stoic idea, I would say. The idea that the thing that happened or the scenario or future that one is looking at, that it's something that was assigned. I mean, you could, we could debate who did the assigning, but that is an interesting way of looking at it. It's fundamentally something that you don't have a choice about that was chosen for you.

And now what's left is what you're going to do with it. Right. And that has been so helpful. I knew nothing. I have to say, you really are, like I'm sure for so many people, where my entry point into stoicism, I stumbled upon you and then of course it led me

to some readings and now I, of course, my Instagram feed thinks that I I aspire to be an expert. But I really want to thank you. It's also in Sarri Ryan because some of this stork philosophy has really helped me through this time. And in particular, the quote, a Morphati, which I wove into the film because I just found it so powerful and I use it in my life. It's the most simple mantra for me to get through some of the roughest times of my life. So I really have you to credit for that, so I want to thank you. You have a tattoo on your arm, right?

I did. I put it on my wrist. It's interesting I have it tattooed I wrote it into the film as a Morgan Freeman's character is a a man who's experienced a lot of grief himself and he Is has 10 years sober. He's a recovering alcoholic He we learned that he was a Newark cop. so he's lived a very tough life, both as an alcoholic and dealing with the intensity of being a cop on the streets of Newark. And he has a lot of regrets in his life.

I put it as a moment in the film where Florence Pugh's character clocks that he has it tattooed on his wrist as a way of being a mantra for himself. He doesn't really tell her what it means until later in the film. Of course, a lot of people that listen to you will know the phrase. So yeah, it's sort of a, because it was so meaningful to me and powerful to me, I had it tattooed in the same spot that I put it on Morgan in the film, I ran it under my wrist. I love that so much, I carry this with me. I don't have a tattooed, I've got some other stoke tattoos, but it is helpful, I think. It's one thing to intellectually understand that the situations we face in life are assigned

to us and that we can argue about them or complain about them or fight against them or we can sort of accept them and love them and use them to be better. But there is something I think helpful about like little reminders that sort of catch you when you want to spiral in the other direction. That's also what, you know, 12-step groups are fundamentally about too. It's just little sort of reminders. And reminders and also in that particular example you just gave about what you can control and what you can't control. You know, I think when you feel out of control,

whether it's through grief or sadness or trauma that's showing up in your life. It's very helpful. I mean, I'm not in a 12-step program, but of course I did research for this film. And to me, someone who's not working a program, that phrase is very helpful to zoom out and focus on what I can control and what I can't control. And also, that there is something very powerful to knowing that if I choose to love this,

there might be something quite glorious that comes out of it that I never could have imagined. And that can be incredibly hard to see at the time. But I do think that there are blessings in disguise. I share your sort of marveling with certain people. You're like, how does this person get out of bed in the morning? Like I didn't really fully understand it until the pandemic,

but I was thinking about some Marcus Aurelius. He has all these hopes and dreams for what being Emperor is going to be like. He's this smart guy. He wants to be a good person. Then this pandemic, this play happens. Then people start dying. He buries half of his children before they reach adulthood.

And you just think like, you know, there's this idea that stoicism is somehow like a pessimistic philosophy. And then I think like the fact that this dude stayed alive that he did that he kept going that he woke up every day and got out of bed, let alone, you know, was nice to people or worked hard or, you know, wrote things down. It's an incredible testament to the sheer resilience and fortitude of some human beings, but I think fundamentally what human beings are capable. Like, we are a remarkably resilient species. And I try to remind myself that we're the descendants of people like that who got their asses kicked,

who had their hearts broken, who had everything that could go wrong, go wrong a million times. Like those are our parents and our grandparents and our great-grandparents. We come from that stock. Yeah, but at times it can be so hard to imagine going on for some people. And that's what I wanted to write about.

Just the, of course, in the film I use a tremendous tragedy. It's in the trailer, so I can say that it's a fatal car accident. But I wanted to write it in such a way that people saw themselves. It didn't necessarily have to have something as horrible you might, or it could be a divorce or losing your job or being broke or whatever your thing is. I really wanted to craft it in such a way that it was really about standing up no matter what your first thing that brought you down is. My hope is that people will relate

to Florence Pugh's character and see themselves in her. Because we've all, if you're a human being that's been alive in your adult, you've had things that brought you to your knees. You've had things that made you most likely, made you go, how do I pick myself up again? How do I start over? Well, it's not just that life can bring you on your knees,

but the course of your life can change in an instant, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. The trajectory of one's life, everything you thought you had earned, that you'd cobbled together, that you thought was laid out before you as the as the character are sort of experiences in those very early moments of the movie. And then all of a sudden, everything is fundamentally different and will never be the same again. Sometimes it's your fault, sometimes it's not. Yeah.

Yeah. And the question is, how do you process this? I mean, anyone whose life has changed in a split second started that day thinking it would be just like any other day. I mean, think about everyone, I mean, I'm sorry, I'm sorry if this is too dark, but my brain just instantly went to 9-11. Think about everyone that was affected by 9-11,

directly and indirectly, and everyone who went to work that day, thinking this is just another day. And of course, again, on a smaller scale, it's like, you know, it could be, you know, your partner, you realize your partner was having an affair. You get fired. These things that just happened in an instant,

even Gardens Day, you know, the whole, if it is for the whole story, really, is that there was a malfunctioned quarter-inch piece of plastic on the family dishwasher and the door kept falling open. It's a reason, you know, he was a little boy and he pushed his mom, and it's the reason she became a paraplegic.

I guess I'm really fascinated by those moments because they can change our lives so drastically. And then is the big work. Then is the sycophine, it feels like work of, of how do I then back get back up, you know? Yes. What I think that's been the function of tragedy and theater and now cinema and I guess television for thousands of years, which is to sort of play those scenarios out for us so we can sort of go there, but for the grace of God, go, I do in that scenario. And to realize that ultimately, this isn't just something

you're watching on television or on the stage, but something that could happen to you tomorrow when you wake up. In fact, I'm, you know, I guess it's a mild spoiler that I'll just to give the story. I was very careful that what Allison is doing on her phone is not something egregious. I was very, I was very specific that everyone watching would say there, but for the grace of God, go I. Because she's just usually the map app on her phone, who doesn't use the map app on their phone. So I was very specific that it wasn't as she was texting or on Instagram

or whatever, as she was doing something that many, many people will be able to say there, but for the grace of God, God. Yeah, I think that's a really powerful part of the movie, which is that ultimately, whose fault it is, when something is so tragic and devastating and life altering for you and people around you, the idea that someone is to blame is so insufficient and ultimately meaningless, right? Like, obviously some of the characters cling to blame or not, but in the end, it doesn't really matter what matters is that it happened. And now everyone has to live in the fallout of that new reality that can never be undone. Yes.

And also what now? Like, how do we start, you know, Allison literally says, how do I, how do I do this? She says to Morgan Freeman, when, you know, they're both, they're both experiencing the same grief and trying to go out of the loan. And when she finally, when they finally, through circumstances, end up in a diner booth opposite one another. She says to the senior citizen with more life experience

and more sobriety experience and more just life experience, how do I do this? And he says it takes work. And she just can't fathom that this is come backable. You know what I mean? Yes. And that's how I felt. What?

I have a friend who lost a nine-year-old. And you just... There's no words. How do you do it? How do you do it? And they will. They're strong and they're surrounded by love and they're surrounded by support. But it's such a human and relatable story. That's why I was drawn to it. You know, and I think it's important, obviously, I wrote a book called The Opsicles Away, and we're talking about a more faulty,

it's very easy to be glib. Like, oh, you take this devastating, tragic, terrible thing and through the power of thought and imagination it's transformed into a positive. And that's so demeaning to the reality of those people's situations and the immensity of the struggle before them. It's that one, it will be an incredible amount of work,

to it will take a lot of time. But from that work and from that time, there can come something beautiful and positive and ultimately filled with meaning. It's not something that you would have chosen. It's not like, oh, I'm so glad this happened. But that life does continue on in that, you know, one of the things that the human species has the capability to do, which I think that quote we were talking about earlier is about, we had the ability to drive meaning and wisdom and insight and community from these devastating things that have happened. And that's the problem.

Of course, it's not really anything more than that. And absolutely. And you know what, you know, Amanda Clutes, my friend who lost her husband, she went on to write a book that was incredibly inspirational and moving. I mean, just as an example of that, now that book will go on to help others who are fake. It's like you said about art coming out of something. I do believe that. And Morgan, I'm not going to spoil anything, but Morgan's character, Morgan Freeman's

character, in a person, sees how even through the devastation there are ways in which his life was changed in a positive way. Even he can see the glimmer of light and the darkness of from what's happened to him. And it's not, it's not easy for him, right? Like I think that's what to me, the moving parts of the movie is he, they sort of reencounter each other, anything's, ah, this is a test. I'm going to be better for this. I'm going to use this as a learning experience. And it doesn't go the way that he planned.

Like it doesn't work out the way that he planned. I think he's a religious man. He's a religious Christian religious man. And I think he really is pretty certain that God is on a platter providing a test for him. And he sees it so clearly as that. And he is up to the, he believes he's up to the task. He's going to show God that he can't be broken. And of course, it doesn't go the way he plans at all. It's funny, I talked to lots of people and a good chunk of those people haven't been readers for a long time. They've just gotten back into it.

I always love hearing that and they tell me how they fall in love with reading. They're reading more than ever and I go, let me guess, you listen audiobooks, don't you? And it's true and almost invariably they listen to them on Audible. And that's because Audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre from bestsellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, and of course, ancient philosophy, all my books are available on audio, read by me for the most part. Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app, you'll always find the best of what you love, or something new to discover, and as an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire

catalog, including the latest best sellers and new releases. You'll discover thousands of titles from popular favorites, exclusive new series, exciting new voices in audio. You can check out stillness is the key, the daily dad I just recorded. So that's up on audible now coming up on the 10 year anniversary of the obstacle is the way audio books. So all those are available, and new members can try audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500-500. That's audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500-500. Celebrity feuds are high stakes.

You never know if you're just going to end up on page 6 or Du Moir or in court. I'm Matt Bellissi. And I'm Sydney Battle, and we're the host of Wonder E's new podcast, Dis and Tell, where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud. From the build up, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Brittany and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans formed the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the

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Yeah, there's a, there's a having way line. I think it's in the end of a fair whale to arms, where he says, you know, he's like, there are people in this world who are so strong that they can't break. And he says, but eventually the world breaks everyone. And the ones that don't break, it kills, are the ones who don't break the world kills.

But the ones who do break are allowed to become stronger at the broken places, right? And I think. Wow, that's an amazing quote. It's so good. I mean, there's also that Japanese art, Kansugi, where, you know, the shattered bowls put together with gold or silver as the glue. I don't know if you've ever seen this. Yeah. It's sort of an absolute idea. But I think that's the idea in the movie is he kind of thinks like my sobriety is so strong, my will is so strong, I'll be able to get through this. And it's actually not until he is humbled by life and the challenge that he has the ability to grow and change and actually pass whatever that test really is.

Yeah, that's what I'll say. And I love that quote. Will you please send that to me? I want to whatever that test really is. Yeah, that's what I'll say. And I love that quote. Will you please send that to me? I wanna put that in my mirror. I will. I will. It's at the end of a farewell to arms when,

it's actually really, so Hemingway, you know, has this great quote that the first line of the first draft of everything is shit, right? And he rewrote the ending to a farewell to arms like 20 or 30 times. And so I think there's some version of the quote in the final draft, but there's like a better version in one of the many drafts, but this is at the end

where his wife dies in childbirth or the baby dies in childhood. I forget what it is, but there's this sort of devastating moment like we're talking about and he's sort of faced with this exact idea which is like, do you carry on or not? Yeah, I love that and I want to send that to my friends who are grieving right now the loss of their child because I think that, you know, we're always searching for a way to help people through this. And I've realized that just showing up is being present and loving and being supportive is all you can do. I recently read in a book by a rabbi who said, don't ever write someone, if there's please reach out if there's anything I can do,

because then you're putting the burden of the responsibility onto the person who certainly is in no place to have more burden put on them. So I think it's Steve, you should reach out. It says, yeah, you just do it. Don't even reach out, just do it. He said, you know, a very common, this is a rabbi who's dealt, you know,

who's counseled thousands and thousands of people through grief. And he said, the very common reaction to say, please let me know if there's anything I can do. He says, don't write that. He said, you're what you're doing without, without you mean well, but what you're doing is you're putting the burden of reaching out onto them. He goes, just do it. Whatever you had planned, just do it. Come over with bagels and coffee or whatever and just be there and be present and let them let them talk and be there. But but certainly don't say, please reach out if you're meaning because they're never going to. Well, I think it's you don't you don't want to be an imposition and you don't want to bother them. But actually, I think one of the things you can do

is by sort of taking the onus or the initiative, it is like, they'll tell you if it's too much, if they don't want it. And to say like, I'll take the social awkwardness of you, of you saying, hey, like, I wanna be alone right now, or hey, I don't really need anything, or not responding to 20 texts in a row. Like, like, being willing to be the bigger, more secure person that's willing to do, that's willing to sort of overreach, then underreach and put it on them.

Absolutely. When Amanda was going through this loss, she, I can't tell you there was like a sign-up sheet for people that would take the baby on an hour-long stroller walk. Because the woman just needed an hour to maybe cry in the fetal position, maybe take a shower, maybe just be alone for a split second, and the amount of people that showed up to just be like, they didn't even know the baby. I mean, they were friends with them, maybe they didn't want to close with the baby yet, but they were just like, I will talk, I will take your baby on an hour long, walk around the neighborhood, and you know, my parents lost my sister meals, which are show up on the front door. Beautiful, fully cooked homemade meals, with no, sometimes no no, no, no, no, no expectations, just a beautiful lasagna put on the front porch. And it's those things, and that's another thing the film is about, is about getting

by with the little help from your friends. It's about, and sometimes it's about the kindness of strangers, but it certainly is about showing up for someone's suffering. Well, speaking of your work, one of the things that I thought about during the pandemic, because I think I told you this, but so Garden State came out when I was a sophomore or a junior in high school. So it was like sort of perfectly timed for my generation. So as Scrubs, Scrubs came out,

I guess when I was a freshman in high school. And I remember in the pre-TVO days, illegally downloading it so we could watch it because there was no reruns. But the thing I thought about most during the pandemic was the scene where they shout into the infinite abyss. And the reason I thought about it is I was reading about this mom's group in Boston

that would get together once a week in a public park outside, and they would all just scream as loud as they could together for like one even. I think that's incredible. And that amazing. That's incredible. Yeah, and by the way, I never did that.

I always bannised, it was like a fantasy of mine to scream into a giant infinite hole. It really was. It's not something you can just do in your backyard in Hollywood. But I really, now they have these break rooms where you can go and like break shit. Have you heard about this? Yes. You've sued up with like headgear and goggles and gloves and you just tend like in the matter what you get is like there's different price points what you can break and they give you a baseball bat and you can just destroy things for catharsis.

But yeah, I think that was just a fantasy. I mean that really is a metaphor for the anxiety that I was feeling in my life. Just this fantasy of being able to scream and out of my body, of course, and then kiss a beautiful, malle-poor minute after. And that was the true, that was the extra cherry on top. But no, I think that was what I was, I was such an anxious,

I have such anxiety in my body that I deal with. And for me, in Garden State, particularly at that age of my life, it was a fantasy. It's just being able to just, it's still your fucking screaming at all of your, all of your audita, all of your negative things in your body into a hole that would just disappear. That was my, I was sort of a fantasy of mine. No, I have the same fantasy and I think there is this idea that stillisism or people who process grief, that it's about kind of stuffing it down, pretending it doesn't exist or never processing it. I think the idea is it's better to go outside and scream into the void than to tell everyone you're okay and then scream at someone over a minor car accident or a shopping car at

the store or an employee who screws something up. Like, if you bottle it up or you stuff it in a closet, it will come out eventually just not in a controlled or appropriate way. Yeah, isn't it fascinating to you? And I'm sorry, your listeners are well, I'm sure well better educated on stoicism than I, but is it fascinating to you that these writings are so old and so wise and pertinent and relevant today? I mean, that's what I've gotten from you.

It's just, these writings are more helpful to me in my daily life than things that have been written in the last 100 years, very often. Well, I think it's true in all forms of art, but comedy being a great example of it. Garden State is your unique, very specific experience. And yet somehow, it resonates to me across the country, younger than you, having different issues. I see the universality or the universal nature of it, right? And I think

it is fascinating that 2,000 years ago, the private writings of the emperor, or conversely the lectures of Epochitis, who's a slave, it should be an unfathomable gulf between us, an incomprehensible dish between us. We should have evolved, right? Or we should just not be able to understand what life was like and what their experience was like, because it's so radically different than on the model. But they're wrestling with, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, they're wrestling with the exact same stuff. Well, you know, you talked about helping your friends there.

One thing I often point people to, because you know, someone will lose someone or a friend will lose someone and they'll go like, you know, what would the Stokes have to say about this? There's actually three essays that Seneca wrote called consolations one is to the daughter of a friend who had died. The other is to his mother. So Seneca is Seneca loses a child. So his mother loses a grandchild and then Seneca is exiled. He's going to be off, probably to die, to never see his family or his friends again. And there's one other one, I'm forgetting

who the other one is too. But anyways, he writes these two essays, or these three essays, essentially consoling grieving friends and it could have been written last week. It is, he's just walking them through like my favorite part is he's talking to this, this woman whose father had died and he goes, obviously, it's sad that your father has died. And here you are a year later, you know, you can barely get out of bed.

You're crying all the time. You're miserable. You don't want to go on living. He goes, your father would obviously, like, hope you're sad that he's gone, but what would hurt him more than anything in the world would be to watch how much joy has gone out of your life by his absence. And it's so beautiful. And you're like, fundamentally, human beings have been wrestling with that sort of temptations the wrong work, but that sort of response to grief

for 2000 years, and the advice out of it that Seneca gives is just as true now as it was, you know, right around the time Jesus was still alive. It's remarkable. That's literally what I've said that to my mom who continues to grieve my sister, the loss of her child. And, you know, I've literally said a form of that so many times. Her name was Shoshana, so I would say, you know, Shoshana would want you to be, of course, remembering her, but she would also want you to have a full, incredible life and not do the things that were on your bucket list.

She would want you to travel. She would want you to take up a hobby. She would want you to be belly laughing. Picture her watching you. That's what she would want you to be belly laughing. You know, picture her watching you. That's what she would want, you know? They would feel terrible if they were the reason you were not doing those things. Yeah, and think about that. It's another good way to think about it, Ryan, is like think about it. Like, if it was us, if we were the ones that were gone, we would, we of course wouldn't

want everyone to just have a quick branch and move on. But we also would be devastated if we looked down and saw it ruining just making someone suicidal, making them addicted to drugs, making them ruining their lives because of us. If there is an afterlife, we would be doing everything we could to try and communicate to please, please go on. Please, please don't have this be your demise. I don't know, at least it's a helpful way to think of it. I mean, I never really thought of it specifically like that,

but I think that's helpful. No, that's the very powerful part of the movie is the sister is sort of this. If you want to think about a form of life after death, part of the movie is the sister is sort of this. If you want to think about a form of life after death, the sister's sort of reappearance throughout the movie as a sort of a North Star or a bit of clarity to a number of the different characters in the movie that is how we continue living after we die is is not just in the memory of people like oh, Hey, this person was nice or hey, this person was beautiful or whatever, but what did that person teach us and how is it

Continuing to shape our behavior or hold us accountable or push us to do things in the present moment that's Multi-generational impact. That's a form of immortality. Yeah, and are we honoring what they would want? I mean, I think that's very helpful. Yes. It's certainly in my film, a good person, though the loss of Morgan's daughter is, like you said,

she remains even though she's not in the whole film physically, she remains such a powerful force because everyone is trying to navigate what they think she would want and what they think her wishes would be and trying to honor her by keeping those wishes alive. It's tricky to talk about without spoiling anything, but I'm tipped on your hand. Yes, and if there are any spoilers in the, in this episode, I, I would say still absolutely, we're seeing it's an incredible and moving, yeah, please don't not do it.

Yeah, I accidentally spoil this. Well, and, and look, I think like when I, when I read books, like when I read plays, particularly, I, I always go like, like when I read plays particularly, I always go like, the chance of me understanding everything that's happening as it's happening is about 0%. So I actually go and spoil stuff like before I consume it.

If I know it's gonna be good, like if it's operating at a high level. Yeah, like Shakespeare. Yeah, exactly. I'm not gonna watch this five times. So I'll spoil the ending. There's a really great thing in Manhattan for actors. Every Broadway show, and I think a lot of off-Broadway shows are filmed for archival purposes.

They're never to be aired, and they're never to be used for monetary purposes. But if you go to the theater a lot, you may have occasionally been there on the night when they're videotaping it with three cameras. And it's all archived at Lincoln Center. And what they provide is you have to have a reason to watch it. You can't just be someone who just walks in there and says, hey, can I watch, you know, the Leav Shriver production of Macbeth from the public theater. But if you're an actor, is one reason.

And what I would do when I was fresh out in Northwestern was I would have an audition for often at the public theater, which is the preeminent Shakespearean theater in Manhattan. And I would just be like, I don't know this play at all and just reading it is way overwhelming. So let me go out to the library and watch a great production

on it. And I would do that all the time. And that was really helpful to understanding the play, was not only reading it, but following along with a really well done production. And then you'd go, oh, now I understand the play. So that just made me think of that. No, totally. It's like watching it with subtitles on. You actually understand what's happening. And so you're able to understand the levels at which something is operating as opposed to the subtext or whatever just sort of flying right past you. Yeah, that's all set. The character that I actually thought was really interesting in the movie, and I guess I related to, I thought Molly Shannon's character was interesting in that, you know, just her

sort of very limited emotional range. I don't mean Molly Shannon as an actor. I mean, I'm sure it was very difficult to act as someone who was so fundamentally stunted in the sense that like her daughter's basically dying and her killing herself. And she's like, hey, do you want to make some crafts from Etsy? Like she's so lax, the toolkit,

but then also the emotional awareness in her own life to connect with this person who needs connection and vulnerability. Yeah. Well, she doesn't have the skills, like you said, she doesn't have the skillset. And the only that she's a functioning alcoholic, you know, casual, Xanx, chewer herself. So, you know, she doesn't have the, you know,

this is not a woman who has a skillset to deal, I mean, who would, to be honest, this woman, you know, this woman is not fully equipped to get her daughter back in her life after a tragedy and try and nurse her back to health. Now, Florence's character is also initially physically injured severely in the accident herself. So, you know, we jumped a year ahead in the film and so I didn't want to really want to write about recovering from the physical ailment. So I as a writer, I skipped that because I really wanted to talk about the emotional recovery. So that's the reason she initially was prescribed oxycon as so many people are for physical pain and then they become reliant on to numb their emotional pain. So Molly Shannon's character, Diana, is in no way, does she have the skill set and she's alsoating herself. And so when she tries to practice tough love with her daughter and tries to say, hey, we got a wean you off these pills,

that's what everybody's saying. She, like so many parents or loved ones or wives and husbands, she tries to take a stand and say no more. But then it's terrifying because her daughter goes missing for a time and she does what so many people do, and that is retreat and enable because it's terrifying. The devil you know, which is just my daughter's and oxyatic at home, is better than the one you don't, which is my daughter's missing. And so I think that that's a really, really tough place

for her, and she's trying, she's trying things like giving her mild pep talks. The one you're referencing is like, hey, maybe we can make money if we got to do a craft together. We could sell them on Etsy, you know, she's trying, but it's so feeble. And, but I thought that was real. You know, I didn't want to have her mom be this all knowing

amazing mom. I didn't feel real. It felt real to me was like, what about this, this, you know, blue collar woman who has her own addiction issues and certainly just has no clue how to be a therapist to this woman. Hey there listeners. While we take a little break here, I want to tell you about to this woman. from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace, Manduka Yoga Mats, Soul Cycle, and Kodopaxi, as well as entrepreneurs working to solve some of the biggest problems of our time, like developing technology that pulls

energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight. Together, they discuss their entire journey from day one, and all the skills they had to learn along the way, like confronting big challenges, and how to lead through uncertainty. So if you want to get inspired and learn how to think like an entrepreneur, check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondaria. Well, yeah, and obviously there's other forms of abuse in the movie, other sort of failures as parents, but when I look at that character, I didn't see someone who was changed by what happened,

but someone who had probably been that way always, right? Absolutely. And so ultimately the daughter sort of never had the support system, but also never saw sort of emotional resilience and processing and dealing. She would have not, she would not have grown up with any, she would not have grown up developing any of the tools or any or seeing any of the kind of examples that she would have needed to if she had any chance of you know dealing with this immense tragedy in her life. I think that's well said Ryan, I think and and I think this is certainly before the before the

tragedy, this is certainly certainly Florence think this is certainly before the tragedy, this is certainly, certainly Florence's character is certainly someone who is probably rolling her eyes at her mother a lot with love, but being like, you know, her mom drinks a lot and her mom says inappropriate things. And her mom certainly, she loves her, but she certainly wasn't the rock that, and also super, super emotionally intelligent in a way of being able to help her through a crisis. Yeah, no, I related to that. It's like you have these,

even going back to like when you're like a young person, like in Garden State, you have this range of overwhelming emotions, you're intimidated by life, you know, you're trying to find meaning and purpose in the world. And, you know, if, if the people you're living with are stunted or constrained, because of things that happened in their life, because of how they grew up, because of, I don't know, stereotypes or cultural understanding of what a parent is supposed to be or not supposed to be, you end up not developing

the emotional toolkit that you need to process and deal with those emotions. And I certainly, there's probably a sort of a boomer argument there, I guess, of that being a sort of an endemic style of parenting that a lot of people grew up with. Yeah, for sure. But even the most skilled parent would probably be in over their head with what, you know, Molly Shannon's character is forced to deal with.

Yes. I mean, even the most emotionally well-adjusted, in-touch, empowered parent over the last three years is going to find themselves in a park in Boston shouting into the void because it's just more than any human being can reasonably be expected to handle. I exactly and that's what came out, you know, I think that's what the pandemic is

for me, it's not, it's not a obvious surface character in the film, but it's for me, and it's completely a character in my psyche in the film. Because it's the ultimate standing up from trauma for the whole world. Like, how do we, you know, what we were saying in the micro example of the film, how do we stand up again? But I think in my mind was like, how does Earth stand up from this? This was so, like I don't even, who can even fathom how this will stand up again? But if I think in my mind was like, how does Earth stand up from this?

This was so, I don't even, who can even fathom how this will have impacted us? We need a decades worth of time to look back on see how it affected our emotional well-being. I mean, think of the children in the schools and everyone, I mean, I can't imagine what we're going to find out. Well, yeah, you think about Florence's character in the movie and part of the trauma for her

is not just that it happened, but that there's a sort of denial of her experience and her suffering because other people's grief and suffering comes first, right? And I think if you think about the pandemic, it's obviously traumatic, obviously tragic, different people felt it in different ways. And then what do you do with those feelings in a society where a good chunk, you know, literally millions of people deny that it exists or want to move on from it very quickly or want to sort of point fingers about it, right? Like how does, it's probably a, maybe it's like a similar, okay, in World War II, this is a shared global

experience, right? So everyone deals with it. And so everyone's at least kind of living in the same reality. And then you can trust that with a generation later, the experience in Vietnam, where it's not doled out equally. And the trauma is left to people alone. Society has a different way of dealing with that. And there's still consequences for that to this day. You know, Morgan Freeman's character in the movie, being an example of that. way of dealing with that and there's still consequences for that to this day. You know, Morgan Freeman's character in the movie being an example of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a Vietnam vet. Yeah, that's really well said, man. I don't want to go down the wormhole on this, but it was an extra level of hard being on the front lines at the beginning of the pandemic watching a 41-year-old die and and and and and slowly fade away with people saying this is not real and and this uh this doesn't affect young people and all that stuff that was uh that was another that was that was advanced. Right, the theibness of, oh, you know, this is only affecting old people.

That might be true at a larger statistical level, but that's particularly devastating for the exceptions to that trend to here. Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course, and you know, people didn't want to believe it. They were like, he must have had a preexisting condition. Like that was, it's almost like that gave people solace,

thinking like, well, they must not have preexisting addition. And even if he did. No, no. So what? No, but I mean, he did it in this particular case, he didn't, I mean, of course, I'm sure there's examples of people who did, but he didn't.

So, anyway. But no, there is sort of a societal urge to find, I think we do this in a lot of tragedies. We do this, unfortunately, now that everything's so politicized, is like something terrible happens, an unarmed black man is shot in the streets by the police or a pandemic happens, or I don't know, there's a train crash in Ohio.

And we try to find a reason that we don't have to care about it because it affects either people we don't like or it was caused by people we don't like or whatever, right? We try to find a way to explain it away or minimize it or make it something contentious instead of having to sit with the sadness and the awfulness of it and then go to what we were talking about earlier, that place of there, but for the grace of God, go I. Yeah, and compassion. How do we get out of that, Ryan? You're the genius philosopher. Can you solve this for us? Here's the thing. I think at a community level, human beings do a really good job.

As you said, the casserole arrives on your doorstep, people rush to the scene. The problem is when these things are filtered through media or it's far away, that I think there's a part of us that just doesn't, we'd rather, we want to find a reason that it's not horrible that it could happen to us. Sennaka has this, in one of the essays, he talks about how, you know, your neighbor dies. And you know, your instinct is to think, oh, that's so bad for them, that's so sad for them. There's some defensive part of us that doesn't want to let it in enough that we would go, that could happen to me, that could happen to someone I love.

So by politicizing it or trying to explain it away, I think we're just fundamentally being defensive because we don't want the vulnerability of having to accept a world where as they say, you know, bad things happen to good people. We want to find a reason that they're bad people and thus we're not vulnerable. Yeah, but you're right though, it's interesting that it doesn't, it happens less on the communal, and the micro, perhaps. I don't know if that's true, but it feels like it does.

I think so, I think so. So how have you processed all of that grief? What is that? Obviously, this movie seems like it was therapeutic and something to throw yourself into, but I can't imagine you just said time heals all wounds. You've probably had to do something work that we're talking about. No, I did a lot of work.

I did a lot of reading. I have an incredible therapist that is a cognitive behaviorist, which is very helpful to me. It's not so much about the style of therapy is not so much about talking about the pain of the past, but talking about specific strategies and systems to put in place to make, to get past things and to reach goals and to deal with the negative thoughts that come up. So there's sort of a system in place to help you.

It's more, to me, it's a bit more of a practical way of receiving therapy than in other ways I've tried. So there's that. And really, I guess I have to say that the communal experience of sharing a good person has been very healing for me. Because now that I'm finally showing it to audiences and you see people's reaction, you feel, I feel the community of sharing the film and seeing people's reactions to it.

And that makes my heart glow because it feels, I feel, I, the people see themselves in the story, the people see that there's community in experiencing the emotional pain, and there's something very healing in that. It's really a self-for-lowliness, if you will. That's really been the most powerful thing that's come out of this, is feeling less lonely by sharing what I made. Yeah, I think that's the idea. That's the artist's sort of gift and then also duty is that you have these feelings and you have a place to put them, which is your work.

But if you don't, because you're afraid or because it's hard, or you're, you know, whatever, you're also not helping people in a way that you're able to help people. I think it's win-win in a sense that the artist gets help by saying, I have to do something with these emotions, let me funnel them into art like that quote you started this episode with. And then if it's a successful piece and engaging success solely by

it's resonating with a group of people, then it's helpful to them. I mean, how many times have I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't think of how many times I've watched a film and, and, and shed a tear and had a laugh and gone, oh my God, I feel so seen. I feel so, I'm not alone. I'm not crazy. That movie was, it was like that writer was writing for me.

That is my life. That reminds me of that horrible, you know, a breakup I went through or that reminds me of that horrible breakup I went through or that reminds me of my parents divorced. Now, hard it was. That's the genius of great art. And of course, in great writing, not just fiction. Powerful.

I mean, I have so many, including your book, so many nonfiction books that have helped me and instruct me. And it's just so wonderful when you go, oh my God, you're reek. Did I need to read this today, you know? Totally. And then yeah, that is part of the process

by which one is able to see with time that there was silver lining or whatever you wanna call it, which is that by what I went through, other people you want to call it, which is that, you know, by what I went through other people had to go through it less bad or community emerged that wouldn't have existed before or people there are people walking around alive that would not have been alive had they not been reached at a certain moment or been given home? Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the most beautiful thing. Absolutely. I mean, you know, this, this, this, these two people save each other from themselves is what I keep thinking and saying to, you know, about them, is that they're the last two people in the world you would expect to form a friendship and they literally save each other

from themselves. So one of my favorite songs that I ever found came from Scrubs, the guided by voices song, Hold On To Hope. And given what you have gone through and then given the, you know, less than uplifting themes, at least at the beginning of the movie in the last couple of years, what keeps you, what keeps you hopeful, what keeps you going? Um, what keeps me hopeful, um, the sun. I discovered by four by 47 years old that I like to be in a warm climate. I know you do too. You're down in Texas, but what keeps me hopeful? What do you mean? What do you mean it's hard to be optimistic? Yeah, I know some people can do it, but for me, I got really clear. I grew

up in Jersey, you know, and Jersey, my no means, has an easy winter. And I went to school in Aminst, DeMille, Illinois, which I mean, there were days when with the windshield, it was negative 65. But I realized that a certain point that I was not that was not a mentally healthy place for me personally to be. I don't think I have the seasonal effect of disorder thing, or for all I know, maybe I do, but I do know that I have more serotonin in the warm climate. What keeps me hopeful is just trying to seize the day,

trying to create stuff that is meaningful. Sometimes it's comedic and makes people laugh hopefully. Sometimes it's more dramatic like this with a mix of laughter. But that's what keeps me hopeful. What brings me the most joy is being able to create stuff like this. Like a good person and share it. That's what really brings me hope and pleasure and joy. How do you deal with the sort of Hollywood world in which it takes so long for one of those things to come into existence and so many moving pieces?

things to come into existence and so many moving pieces. Well, that's such a good question, Ryan. I think that I have to find other things. I directed Ted Lasso. I directed this new show, Shrinking with Harrison Ford, that I really recommend to your audience. It's really good. So I take on, and of course I act for other people, not just being just a filmmaker would be very frustrating, because it takes so long and it's so hard to get anything made. And so I take on lots of different things

to so that I work, because working makes me happy. Like my work is not something I dread, my work is something that I love. I mean, I dread writing a bit, but when I'm directing and when I'm acting, I think Lauren's cast is the one who said, being a writer is signing up to have homework for the rest of your life.

And sometimes it certainly feels that way. But I get a lot of pleasure out of directing and acting. And so that's what I do. If I was just sitting around waiting for films to come together, it would be just a very lonesome life because so many things have to fall into place, particularly in these like this movie. The financing comes together and falls apart 20 times before it's actually real.

Yeah, to go to the idea of like what's in your control and what's not in your control. I think as one thinks about how one organizes one's career, the more control you have over your output, your work, probably the closer you're going to be to happiness and the further away you're going to be from despair, and it strikes me that your line of work, that's a razor's edge that one is walking. Of course, of course, because you don't, you know, and that's why the independent film is like one of the last bastions of making something that we've

very little corporate involvement and people weighing in, because you really can sort of make something that is specifically your sensibility without an extraordinary amount of executives weighing in and saying, hey, this should be that and the test research says this. I mean, you do, it is sort of a place where you can really just, if it went, you're lucky enough to have it come together, you can really just say what you wanna say. Well, I'm very glad you persevered and let me see the movie.

I thought it was beautiful and moving and I really, really enjoyed it. And I think it's going to help a lot of people. Thank you, Ryan. And I just want to say again, thank you for all that you're doing. I think you're just you're educating so many people, including myself. I knew nothing about the writings of these incredible writers. And you really introduced me to so many things and I love your books.

And I just, I want you to know that what a positive energy and words you're putting out there into the universe that can be very negative. And I want to thank you for that. Well, right back at you, that's a very full circle moment for me to hear. Do you still have that Sennaka quote board that you showed me? Oh, yeah.

Well, I, um, it's funny because I have this board that sort of was cycling through quotes. But then it was, then it was, I realized that like 14 days in it, it only had like 12 quotes. So I was like, I was like, I gotta take it off of this because I know those quotes. It didn't have an infinite, but I really, you know what, I just got, it's kind of geeky, but I got a, I was still a quote, a little flip calendar. You know, literally it was like seven bucks, but it was just, you know, every day of the week, it, every day of the year, you flip it and it has an empowering quote.

And, and that. And that's something I like. I have it on my in my bathroom and my sink. So it's the first thing I read each morning to put a little positive inspiration in my day. Well, I, I, all the power to the person that made this $7 one, but I have one. I'll send it to you because I do want for daily stock. That is the, that is the quote from the daily stock every single day so I'll send it to you. I will send it to me because I already bought this one for seven bucks so I can't possibly

buy this one is much much better. It's much much much. I'm sure I'm sure the hard stock is way better. I found the quote you had and I think this is actually it could be straight out of the movie. The quote from Senica that you had on your wall was, a gem cannot be polished without friction nor a man perfected without trials.

Yeah, that's that could be right out of my film. It's beautiful. It could, it could. All right, man. Thanks so much. Thank you, Ryan. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and

I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.