The Dale Jr. Download - 366 - Kevin Harvick: Burying the Hatchet

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

The show many thought would never happen. After years of harboring unspoken animosity, Dale Earnhardt Jr. sits down with NASCAR Champion Kevin Harvick to bury the hatchet on some things from their past. Harvick made comments during a 2017 satellite radio program about Dale Earnhardt Jr,'s lack of success "stunting the growth of the sport." With Dale Jr. being in the midst of his retirement season, the comments came unexpected and cut deep for many. The two drivers sit face to face to talk about what led to controversial criticism and clear the air by listening to all sides of the story.In 2014 Harvick drove for JR Motorsports, leading the team to a total of six wins in a two-year span. He made his mark in places other than performance, bringing some personnel, key partners, and a relentless desire for success. While JR Motorsports enjoyed the fruits of the relationship, Harvick felt otherwise. After he was separated from his crew chief and team, the relationship went south. It's something that has never been discussed either. Until now. Dale Jr., co-host Mike Davis, and Harvick tell all about what went down at JRM.Harvick's path to becoming a NASCAR Champion started on the streets of Bakersfield, California. His rapid ascension through West Coast Short Tracks led to some tough decisions and a severed relationship with his father. His on-track success led to an opportunity with the West Coast's only full-time NASCAR Truck Series team, Spears Racing. The relationship developed from towing a racecar with a shag-carpet Winnebago to a full-time chance in the big leagues of racing.When opportunity came knocking with legendary car owner Richard Childress there were a few more hurdles. A newly signed letter of intent with another team meant, Harvick had to gamble on himself, buying his way out of the contract and living off his girlfriend's credit card to make it. His first race in Childress' NASCAR Xfinity Series car went well. The second race? Well, the California hot-shoe shockingly didn't qualify. This led to a disappearance few have ever heard about, that had Harvick on a milk container. Once back on the scene, his confidence grew and so did his success, winning two Xfinity Series titles.Kevin lays out the game plan to Cup that few knew about. A plan that had him beginning a Cup effort in 2001. But on February 18, 2001 those plans changed. The untimely death of the legendary Dale Earnhardt Sr. at Daytona International Speedway created a void in Childress' race team that Harvick stepped in to fill. A win at Atlanta put Harvick's career into a stratosphere he never imagined. He admits it was a role he didn't necessarily want. Harvick opens up to Dale Jr, about how tough and awkward the 2001 season was.Before Dale Jr. and Kevin Harvick's relationship hit a stall in 2017, they had a good history together on and off the track. Did you know Kevin and his wife DeLana's first date was in Dale Jr.'s basement? It was a very memorable first date.While at "the table of truth" Kevin and Dale Jr. discuss a myriad of topics. The discussion begins with the heated discussions and rivalry Kevin had during the 2021 playoffs with Chase Elliott. Kevin reveals that he thinks there is a conversation that still needs to be had with the young Georgia driver. Then they talk about the NASCAR Next Gen car and the hurdles ahead for the new racecar and its upcoming debut in the 2022 season. Kevin isn't the only Harvick racing. Keelan is racing over 60-times this season. Harvick reveals his plans to put his son in a Late Model Stock Car.After Kevin's interview, Dale Jr. answers some incredible questions in one of the most entertaining and insightful AskJr's of the season. We learn about what Dale thinks of the new qualifying procedures, the news about Nashville Fairgrounds Speedway, and what he would think of a NASCAR / F1 double-header. We also learn that he has an itch to learn to play a popular stringed instrument. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The following podcast. This is a production, is a production, the following is a production of Dirtymo Media. Hey, everybody, it's Dale Jr. back again for episode 366 of the Dale Jr. download with my co-host,

Mike, how you doing? I'm well, how are you? It's your birthday, Mike. It is. Happy birthday. Thank you. Yeah, right in the middle of the 40s. Right in the middle of the 40s.

That's weird, isn't it? These 40s are kind of weird. I honestly lost count of which one I was, to be honest with you. I mean, when you get this old, it just kind of all runs together. I guess. Yeah. Yeah, I really had a lot of fun in my 20s and my 30s are pretty good, too.

Getting a little worried in my 40s. Are you? You're getting more terrified the older I get. Terrified of what? Dying. Oh, well, that's coming. Yeah, I know. Okay.

That's a morbid start to the last show in the season. But to be honest with you, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. We're going to get through this show. Yeah, I know. So do you feel like you're halfway? Halfway to death? Yeah.

No, I think I'm beyond halfway to death. You're beyond halfway to death. You don't really want to live? I'm not making the 90. Oh, man. I don't want to. Really? 90?

That looks miserable. No, I've seen some pretty spry 90-year-olds out there. Not me, though. I think you have to work out your whole life to be spry 90. Well, then what's wrong with working out your whole life? It just doesn't seem like something I do. Well, you know, I don't think you have to work out. You have to be active.

Get up and walk around and go do. Well, we'll see. We'll see how it works out for me. So there's a place where I chill out and hang out for vacation and so forth. Yeah. And there's a lot of older people that are very active up in the morning walking around six miles and so forth up and down the beach and just staying busy. And that's how you do it.

Getting after. That's how you stay. That's how you enjoy your 90s. Did you ever have a midlife crisis? Every day. Is that right? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I had one this morning trying to get out of the school on time. That was a crisis. There's different kinds of crisis, you know. Trying to get your shoes on with a crisis. A midlife crisis. People have midlife crisis. I have not experienced a mid-life crisis. Trying to get her out of her pajamas and into regular clothes.

And then get the shoes on on time. I had about six crises this morning. All right. And they were all mid-life. I guess so. I'm right in the middle of my life. So, yeah, their mid-life crisis. All right.

Well, now I know what a mid-life crisis is like. Yeah. It's, you know, getting your kids dressed. All right. Must come pretty easy in your household. Yes. All right. The crisis averted.

We haven't been late. Crisis averted. I beat the crisis. Yeah. Congratulations on that. That's right. Happy for you. What is a middle life crisis?

Well, like, I know some people, they'll remain nameless that really struggle with age. Like, in fact, when people say, how old are you, I don't have a problem telling them how old I am. It don't affect me. I have 45. That's how old I am. You know, it doesn't bother me. But some people would be like, I ain't answering that. I know.

And they feel like, you know, I don't know. if you reached the stage of your life where you feel like you haven't accomplished a lot or anything like that, I don't know. I just, I wonder if it's coming, I guess. If I haven't had it, I wonder if it's coming. Yeah. I think there's absolutely, if you haven't had it yet, I think you will one day wake up and go, go, golly, where it all the time go and maybe have a little bit of a freak out about the fact that you have, you know, you're this far into this, you know, experience. Yeah. That's what I, I'm kind of dealing with. I think when my mom passed away, I thought differently about everything.

You know, it didn't happen. When Dad passed away, I just kept on digging. You know, there's a whole lot in front of me. And there's a lot in front of me now. You know, I got, I'm going to raise these kids. It's going to be a blast going through all the things that we're going to do together over the years. And it's really about them and less about me these days. But my wife tells me I'm crazy because I, you know, I had a pretty wild, fun, adventurous, you know, life up to this point.

point. Yeah. So she's like, chill, you know, you did good. You don't have to. I agree with her. Yeah. Like, usually I wonder if midlife crisis, the source of it is regrets. Like if you have regrets of something. Like you've lived half your life and you wish it had gone a different way. But man, if I'm you, obviously there's been, you've had really big hurdles in your life. I mean, you've had some big milestone moments that were hard to deal with, but you have lived a full life. Maybe your, maybe your midlife crisis could be regrets, but maybe it could also be, you, the realization that it will end one day, right? That it will, you know, you live when you're 20 and 30,

you don't even think about it, you're just going and having fun, everything's great. You're like, man, I got a whole lot of time in front of me. But as you get closer to that finish line, you start to realize that there's a finish line and there's, I think, too, as we get to the age that me and you are at now, we start going to less weddings, right? More funerals?

Oh, see, that's interesting. Yeah, maybe that has something to do with it. Dude. All my friends. dropping. Or, you know, your parents and so forth, and you're having to, you know, you're having to watch your friends go through that loss. And every loss and every passing of somebody that you know or somebody that might be

close to you is just another reality check, right? Yeah, it's a good point. I guess, you know, the one part I guess I would be looking forward to for a midlife crisis if it ever happens, and maybe it will, is that don't you usually, you know, spend a lot of money on something that you don't need, but it's just, you know, fun and it helps you through your midlife crisis. I'd look forward to that. Dale helped you with yours.

I did. Maybe that's why I averted a midlife crisis. Yeah. You averted. Can you advert one? Maybe. Damn. I mean, I'm 45.

When does it typically happen? I don't know, Mike. But Dale helped you. But yeah. You do you? Yeah. I guess. Do you know how?

A boat. Yeah. Oh, okay. I mean, dang, man. There, hey, all right. I mean, didn't intend it to. You, thank you. I know it was your strategy all along.

You were helping me out. You knew I had a birthday coming up. You knew 45 is, you know, a round number. It's like. 45 is center, right? I always felt 40. 40. No, no.

Yeah, 40 center. It'd be interesting. I know we're going to get a lot of feedback on this on our dirty mode media social handles about what people think the middle is, right? Is 40, 45, 50? The people just think 50 that being a big round number? Because we celebrate the hell out of 40, right? That must be like the halfway.

point for a lot of people in the, you know, the mental halfway point in your existence, right? I think so. I think so. Like when I hit 40, I'm like, okay, it's downhill from here. Like, I'm going to tell you, the day I hit 40, the day I hit 40, my eyes started going bad, my joints started hurting. I mean, the day went out, the last day of 39 didn't have it. The day I hit 40, I swear, things started falling apart. Next year, we're going to get an own life alert for the first birthday. If they'll sponsor the show, I'm all about it. I can be a, I can be a testimonial. I can do the personal experience. Well, I hope that we remain jovial and happy and, you know, just enjoying life as we get

older into our 50s. I watch people that I know that are going through their 50s and see, you know, kind of watch for how their disposition is and if it changes any from how they actually work, like Sunny, right? Sunny is a great friend of mine. Spent a ton of time around him. Dude loves life, has a blast. You know, enjoys having a few beers with his pal. and as he gets into his 50s, I kind of watch him to see how his disposition changes, right? His attitude and where his happiness is, right? It's interesting to go through this. There's one thing I've noticed about as I get older.

I'm curious if this happens to you. We talked about this in the office the other day. I get more emotional about things. Like there's things that happen that otherwise I would have never given it a thought, but it could potentially make me tear up. And my recent experience is, you know, my youngest daughter runs cross-country. And when you're watching a race, you're just watching your race, you're cheering on your daughter, she's going on, and they'll go off into the woods and then they'll come back. They'll run by seeing kids like give it their all and struggle through what might be pain or whatever is emotional for me.

But then when the last place kid comes by, may be a little heavy, may be a little chunky, but they're still digging. And the pain is all over their face. I swear it gets me emotional. It gets me emotional. And I'm like, snap out of it, dude. I mean, what's wrong with you? rub some dirt on it. I'm just like,

what has got to be? But this is what, if I've changed it all, you know, as I get older, it is that. Like, a movie?

Like, there's some movie we were watching the other day. And my daughters are like, are you, are you, are you, is that a tear?

Are you crying? Uh-huh. This isn't sad. And I'm just like, but yeah, no, I'm not crying. Mike's eating bonbons

and watching the whole. And then the other thing is, I could tell you this. This will affect me, this will affect me the most. When my girls move away, I don't even like thinking about that. Like when I have to take one to college,

I'm not prepared for that. Have you thought about that? Oh, no. I'm not even... I don't really think I need to start worrying about that. You do... It happens quick, though, man. They grow up so fast.

I know it. I know what you mean. Yours are really young. But, man, like, Gracie, my oldest daughter is 12. She'll be 13. She'll be 13 in a couple months. Yeah. And then she says to me all the time,

you know, I'm about to be a teenager. Major, right? And then she also will say, you know, in five years, I'm going to be off to college. Five years? Are you kidding me? That'll be tomorrow. That's going to get me. I'm not showing up for work that day. Well, your 45th birthday, sir, sparked a great conversation. Let us know, you know, from our listeners about how you guys are feeling. If any of you guys are going through your 40s, how things are going for you. Also, we got to mention, T. TJ Majors also having a birthday today, one of our, alumni here at Dirty Moody Media. Yeah. I'll be hanging out with him a little bit. Me and him are going shopping for stock and stuffers this week in preparation for Operation

Christmas morning. There you go. A lot of planning. Hey, there is another birthday, Danny Earnhardt, Sr. Oh, really? Yes. Me, T.J. and Danny Sr. Yep.

I didn't know that. Share November 30rd. My phone would tell me that eventually sometime today. Maybe it already did, but you're so old that it's not registering. We didn't plan on having an open segment, but here at the Bojangles Studio, you know, never know. You just never know what kind of conversation is going to happen. This table. We definitely don't prepare.

It's the table of truth. That's right. It just whatever comes out, comes out. We should say, I guess, that Kevin Harvick is, you mentioned in the open that we didn't know if this day would ever come. I certainly didn't think this day would ever come. And I'm still not sure how I'm going to react when he comes in the studio. I ain't even. We'll see.

I'm looking forward to it. He'll be here in just a little bit. and we're going to get to it. The only thing is, is so everybody understands, right? When we do these interviews, I always try to tell Mike, and I'm actually just trying to tell myself,

that this isn't the only time we're going to speak to Kevin Harvick or Dale Jarrett or whoever comes into this room. We don't want to think that this is like the Kevin Harvick interview, right? This is just the first time he's been in here, and we'll hope to have him back, right? So what we don't get to, we keep a lot of notes about all of our conversations.

And obviously we can go back and listen to the podcast, but we also have all the information that we didn't get to. You know, if we don't talk about it, we'll try to get Kevin back on the show. I mean, Kevin, to me, we usually wait a couple years before we ever cycle back through a guest. I think we could have Kevin back first of next year if we really wanted to just to pick right back up where we left off.

Because honestly, man, there's so much here with Kevin. Yeah, we'll see how the conversation goes before we look at for the season over. Mike might not be that excited. Let's see how fun it is. Listen. I'm like Dale. I think Dale and I are on the safe place.

Like this year has been a year of the two of us growing up a bit. And I think that there's some things. And Jimmy Spencer was the obvious one. I mean, we always said that there were a couple people that would never, we never wanted on the show because whatever, right, for whatever reason. Jimmy Spencer had some things back in 2001, you know, that Dale, you know, carried for 20 years. And so, but, you know, he called me up, says, I think I'm ready to have this conversation. Well, Kevin said some hurtful things in 2017.

And you know what? It was very hard to forget, and it was very hard to forgive. And I know we've had little side conversations with him, you know, over the years. And, you know, we're friends with him and we're friends with all his employees and his team. It's time we finally address face to face what 2017's comments were about. And I'm, and we don't know the answer to it. it right now yeah you know having brought been a broadcaster in the booth allowed me to watch kevin race over the last couple of years and watch him and and as you watch all the storylines going on in the

sport kevin's a big part of that in and out you know coming in and out of those storylines throughout the year you got to call it straight down the middle and um it's allowed me to sort of get past you know how i felt about kevin you know the conversations that we haven't had that we need to have that we hopefully have today. Also, while this is all been going on, all the drivers and teams have foundation events. We have a foundation event. They have always supported Kevin Hark's Foundation,

Josh Jones, and all those guys have always supported everything we've ever done. They've been there present at our events and vice versa. And so there's still a great amount of respect, right? And I think they'll always be that. You know, Kevin, as you'll learn, hopefully, if we are able to get to it. Mine and Kevin's relationship goes back

when I was leaving the Xfinity series, Kevin was coming in. We were basically, I was the A.C. Delco guy for two years, and he was going to be the A.C. Delco guy after I moved up to the Cup series, and so there was a crossing of paths, and he also was very close friends,

you know, with Ron Hornarday, and that had connected him to my dad in different ways. And so we want to be able to talk about that. And obviously, you know, you move forward and you got Kevin Racing here at junior motorsports. That's right. He was a huge part of the growth of this company. I felt like that I took every opportunity I could to express how big of an impact he made on this company while it was happening. You know, we're going to, we'll talk about that as well. So there's a, there's a lot of layers to it. And obviously, his own life, you know, where, you know, I want to

know about his childhood, born and raised in Bakersfield, California, what his childhood was like. how that's affected who he is today as a father. He's got, you know, his own son racing and go-carts and all kinds of things going on right now. So it'd be interesting to be able to get to all that, and we hope that we can. So I told Kevin, funny thing, I texted him the other day. I said, hey, look, I'm going to interview you as long as you'll sit in the chair, so you can have to say when. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Wow. That's good for me to know now. Yeah. May be here a while. Well, I'll tell you this. I love everything you just said. You're right. There's so many layers to Kevin Harvick that I'm eager to. to hear about and really kind of we just never had the chance to do a long form conversation with

it the last thing i would say to this it's just not fun harboring animosity no it ain't it's exhausting actually it's certainly not productive and and it's it's exhausting and i would love to not harbor animosity and i know you feel the same way i hope he feels the same way yeah well i think one thing we've learned about doing this show and we started in that little booth over there when we had Kyle uh Kyle Bush. Kyle Bush on here. Yeah, we had Kyle in here. We had Denny and a few other guys.

And we, you know, there were kind of misunderstandings of various degree. You know, we learned that, hey, man, it's a great way to have these conversations. It's a bit public, you know. It's a bit maybe too public, but it gets the job done, right? You get, you get, you're never going to take the time to sit down and really have these conversations. Especially you drivers. Especially you're never going to go to lunch.

You go, man, we got to squash this. Come on. Let's go have a same. sandwich. You know, so I mean, it gets us in the room. It gets everybody honest. And it's been pretty, it's been pretty fun, you know. And so, and it's been, it's, you know, the relationships that were maybe not going anywhere or were struggling or suffering have improved because of all those conversations. I can't think of one time that we've had somebody in here and talked about a disagreement or misunderstanding and it didn't write itself. Right. Right. You know, there was,

there was misunderstandings. There's one that stands out to me that I didn't even know. that we're there. Okay. And we had Michael Walserp here, and we were going through so much with Michael, right? And remember when he said, you know, you said some things about me that I didn't belong at D.E.I. Remember that? Yes.

I was like, holy smokes, what asshole I was. Right. He's like, that really bothered me when you made the comment that you didn't know whether I was part of the future or belonged as part of the future of D.E. And I thought, damn, why would I, why did I do that? You know? And so, I mean, that's what this podcast has been good for for me. And I know, you know, hopefully everybody else is getting the same thing out of it. You know, there was one more now that you said it. Ty Norris said something and you said something. And there was a moment, if y'all recall the Ty Norris episode where he was telling the story of the meeting that he arranged for Teresa and you and Michael to discuss either a contract extension or whatever. And it did not go well. The meeting did not go well. She was three hours. late. You ended up when she arrived, you ended up spouting off, storming out, and it didn't go well. Ultimately,

that was, as we learned on the show, the beginning of the end for Ty Norris at DEI. He ended up losing his job, getting an ultimatum that it was, you know, like he was out. He thought this whole time that you avoided him for the years ensuing after that because you knew that you were sort of responsible for his exit at DEI. As it turns out, you don't even remember the meeting very much other than the part where you saw red when she walked in and said what you said but as far as all of the other extracurricular stuff you were completely unaware tie did not did not realize that until we had the conversation here and he had been bottling up this animus this whole time thinking Dale he knows that I've got kicked to the curb over that and the fact is you didn't know

and that's it would never happen if we not had this conversation that's a good point we'll see what Kevin now. Who knows? You know, our studio is called the Bojangles Studio for a reason. They are a big part of what we do here at Dordemot Media. And obviously the studio, you know, Bojangles has been around North Carolina forever kind of started in this area. And it's kind of, we're very protective of the brand, right?

That's right. It's a whole brand. We're real proud of it. Yeah. You know, it's some good news to share with you guys. All you Bojangles fans, the Supremes are back. Yeah. If you like me and you've been wishing for chicken Supremes this holiday season,

well, you're in luck. Bojangles, they're bolder than bold chicken Supremes. Juicy, golden, tender, season to perfection. And packed with all that big Boe flavor. They're coming back. Nice. Just in time for this holiday season. Bo Jengals is also celebrating the Supremes by launching a line of NFTs.

Mm. All right. By your local North Carolina artists. Now you can purchase a one-of-a-kind Bo Jangles Chicken Supreme's NFT and you can make history with the first ever Bojangles NFT line. So we had the show about the next gen car, what, a couple weeks ago? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, good show.

Yeah. Austin Dillon came in here. That's right. And one of the developers of the car. Yeah, that got Team Chevy, Eric Warren. And we had a lot of questions and they answered them. And since then, the cars have been on the racetrack and tested a lot more. That's right.

And a lot of cars on the racetrack together. And it's got more questions going on. so maybe we can ask Kevin some questions here. Oh, that would be cool. Speaking of Chevy, I have an all-new Chevy truck, Mike. That's right. I have an all-new Chevy truck. Well.

You loving it? Yeah, I've been enjoying it. I've had it for, I don't know, it feels like about four or five, six months now. I put a wrap on it. I know. Dude. Hard to miss that one. Well, you know, I just thought, why the hell not?

I've had solid colored trucks, you know, reds and whatever's all my life. And I thought my little girl, Ila, would love to see a wrapped colorful truck. I think you're right. And I think you might have even started a trend. I've seen other people start to say that they're going to put wraps on. You know, the great thing about it is, if it's something you don't like, maybe it looks good on paper, but on the actual truck, it's not good. You pull it right off, right?

Take it off and you start over. There you go. Or if you do like it. But then two years down the road, you're like, yeah, I'm tired of this. Take it off. that's what you'll do go back to the base color or get your buddy to draw you up another design

yeah man it's so fun I don't know why I wasn't doing this my whole life it is kind of a you think when you roll in you look like Ivan Stewart we were just talking about it that thing is like so retro looking I just added me some KC lights what KC lights

you know the old school oh oh the you put on top of the truck throwing it back to add to your Ivan Stewart sort of. That's very iron man. It's very iron manish.

Very stadium truck-esque. So anyways, I've owned a bunch of Silveradoes. I think I got two of those right now, the new one, and an old original 2002. But this new one, really am enjoying it. I've blown away by the new generation of Trail Boss, Silveradoes. There's a lot of different ones. Mine's the Trail Boss. Now, this all-new ZR-2 really does take it to the next level.

This is a new one and I had, I think, a 2017 when they first came out with the new body style. And I wouldn't think, you know, they looked the same and really not, it's just really a couple years difference in the trucks. How much different could it feel? Could it be, really? I mean, there's maybe a couple of upgrades with different things about the interior design. Nothing really stood out that jumped off the page. But when I drove it, I could not believe the difference.

I mean, I literally got out of my old red truck, my 2017. got in this new truck thinking that I wasn't going to be able to be pretty similar. Yeah. How difficult could they be? Truck's a truck. I'm like, yeah. Chevy's a Chevy. Yeah.

The new one drove so much better. There's way less body roll. I don't know if it's got their sway bars or what, but the chassis and the suspension are calibrated specifically for off-road performance, the 33-inch off-road tires, the steel front and rear bumpers, add a little durability. It just drives better. I say it again, the body roll. I think, you know, I'm sensitive.

You know, my senses in driving anything are pretty high. So I pick up on a lot of things, noises and a little rattle in the back. Drives me crazy. Something funky in the steering or anything like that is going to bother the heck out of me. But I noticed it right away, man. This thing, this new Silverado, ZR2,

just really handles well compared to even the truck that I own just a few years prior. You know, want to know more or interested in your own Silverado, visit Chevy.com. All right, you want to reset cameras, guys, for guests? Is he here? TikTok, grandfather clock, Harvick to the inside.

I believe that Dale Jr. has had a big part in kind of stunning the growth of NASCAR. He's about the most impatient thing. I'll be waiting when he comes in here. He can take that and show it where the sun does shine, baby. they have a golden horseshoe stuck up their ass so it's um i mean there's no way to get around that harbick is there he gets underneath and junior holds him off because you can't make rookie mistake looking like a bunch of buffoon well he's not going to get in a punching contest because he's scared of that so

he's going to grow up or he's going to have some swollen eyes junior crosses under he's got the inside And here comes Kevin Harvick, the closer. There he is. What's up, man? Trying to find my way around. How are you guys? Good to see you.

Are you having trouble to find your way around? No, well, I wasn't expecting there to be people sitting in the lobby. Are there people? Well, in the front. Out front, yeah. Well, they figure it out somehow or some way. Yeah. And then, yeah, I'm sure they wanted to.

Was there a lot of Harvick fans? Yeah. Was there any Dale Jr. fans that wanted to have a word with you? I mean, look, I've lived that already. So I got close to his back bumper at Martinsville one day. Oh, yeah. I got home, and there were Dale Jr. fans mad sitting in my driveway. That's right.

I remember you telling me that. You won the race. We won the race. Yeah. And I got too close to his back bumper, and they were waiting in my driveway. That's just normal. You probably did something else. Don't you think?

I mean, come on. Now, no, look, so they're so loyal and so there's never a moment that you're right, right? Never. I don't know. You tell me. This is what we want to ask you. I've never lived on this side of the fence because I've always been in trouble. And so, like with your fans, like they're so loyal.

And, you know, you kind of see that at Martinsville, like with Bowman, right? If anybody else was, I guess if it wasn't Denny, I guess it would have been different. But if he would have spun anybody else out there, they would have. booed him but the heck they're cheering man and it's like so you know it's um that's just that's just the unique part about about our sport and and it's that way with the chase elliott fans too like they're the same way like it doesn't matter now they just boo they just all boo because of you know everything that happened and anytime that they would do something to you know to you they would everybody would boo right oh yeah and that was just you know there was more dale junior

fans and more chase elliott fans um and that's just the that's just kind of the way that it is so With Chase, that makes me wonder why you even go to take the fight to him. Knowing that that's the repercussion, right? Knowing that you're going to hear all of that feedback. I would just be like, it ain't worth it. Yeah, well, sometimes it's not worth it. But, you know, I think there's that point where there's a line in the same for your team, right? Yeah.

And you have to fight. that fight for your team. And I think that's, you know, you have to be, you have to be very precise about, you know, how you go about that. And it's not anything, it's not anything personal. Yeah. It's really about your team. And trust me, at this point, I don't want to do anything. Well, at this point, you're doing. Come on. I just want to get in a car and race it and go home, but that's, that'd be too easy, right? And so, you know, fighting those fights are, they better be worth it. And you got to, you got to make sure that you do what you do. You do what's right for your team. But you, after Bristol, like you, I've never seen, I've seen you

mad, right, but you're never that mad. What was different about that? You had this look in your eye like you were, is it just, how do you get to that point? Why are you so upset in that moment? Well, I think, A, we hadn't won all year, and I knew that that was, that was the moment that, you know, we needed to take advantage of. And B, you know, I think that the way that the race was lost, And, you know, I think when you see it done in that particular way, and then you have all the SMT data and things to go along with the way that, you know, you had a lap car that basically came out of the pits and, you know, just sat in front of you on new tires and you lost the race.

I think, and I told him this. I said, I would have rather that you waited for me to come by, hook me in the right rear and stuff me straight in a fence. Like that, that to me is the way that you do it, right? You go. and, you know, if you're mad and that's, and you're looking for that moment, then you, then you do that. To me, that, you know, there's a, there's a way to do it that, that, that, that, um, that, um, that come back, but. I don't understand. Why is that the better alternative than what he did?

Uh, you would rather him stuff you in the fence. Absolutely. Yeah, because in, in today's world, you know, you, you know, you see all that data. And I think, I think when, when you look, when you look at that particular moment and, you know, the, the, the reason that I got into the side of his car, is because he was, you know, an inch off the side of my race car. And, you know, there's a lot of moments that you'd say, okay, if we're racing for eighth, I'm going to, I'm going to lift because I know I'm going to spin out. And, you know, he put us in that position. Like, we were in that position because he was laid on the right side door.

And you do those things because you know that that is how you do it, right? You go in and you lay on somebody's door and you try to get them loose. And, you know, in that particular instance, we're racing for the lead, right? So you keep your foot in the gas and you see what comes out the other side. And then it's not okay. You know, on the other side of the fence, he's mad because, you know, you have contact, and tire goes flat. And, you know, then it all goes the other way.

So the conversation in the pits, did that go the way you wanted it to go? Why were y'all? What was, I don't know that I mean, I don't know that I ever heard. I don't know that I ever heard a description of what the conversation. conversation was, right? And not that I want to relive that moment. But like, we never see that, right? Right.

Racers race and everybody gets out and this guy's interviewed and this guy's interviewed and whatever they say they say and then they go home and they come back the next week. But like that's the first, that was like a Saturday night, you know, Myrtle Beach, South Boston, you know. Southern National this last weekend. Right. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

That was some stuff going on. Started in the Legends race and went all the way through the late model stock race. Yeah. And so it was interesting to see you guys have a conversation so fresh off of the moment. Who instigates that conversation? You? I just got tired of the people, and it needed to be a conversation. And there still needs to be another conversation had, you know, before we start the next season. Between you and him.

Yeah, absolutely. Look, when I started and started acting like a complete ass, you know, started in Cup, it was a different rule of law, right? And it started in 2000 and probably one for me. And I think the first time you really saw how it worked, I spun Bobby Hamilton out in Martinsville. That's right. You got suspended for that. No, I didn't get suspended for that one.

Oh. That was the next year, my mind. But that's the scab on the butt. Scab on the butt comment. And, you know, he was mad for a long time. And eventually we became good friends. And it was really just, look, man, you can't do something. stuff this way. You've got to really think about what you're doing. And it was a, it was a conversation that

Bobby had with me about, you know, how the world turned. And from that point on, we were, we were always good friends. And, you know, I think when you, when you look at, when you look at those conversations, they're good. But yeah, I mean, I invited him into his trailer. I got into the trailer and I'm like, oh, man, this might not have been a good idea. There was, there was nobody in there, and it was just, there was nothing productive that was happening with, with everybody else that was around. And, you know, I was mad, he was mad, you know, what he was mad about, what I was mad about. So that conversation didn't fix anything. And y'all go to the Roval.

Yeah, well, you know, I think that conversation, you know, he understood where I was coming from. I understood where he was coming from. But in the end, he took hundreds of thousands of dollars out of everybody's pocket, right? All the team guys are mad. No, wait a second. That's an interesting perspective. Explain that. Team guys are mad.

Everybody in the company gets. It's a bonus for winning the race. You get a bonus for, you know, everybody there was mad. And in those particular instances, you have to do what's right for your team, right? And, you know, on the days that, you think that you have to pick and choose those battles. And, you know, I think, you know, at the Roval, it was just the way that it went. So it's not over. It's over.

Like, y'all probably don't do anything to each other. going forward, but you do want to have another round of conversation with him. Look, it's not in anybody's best interest for your race teams to go forward, but you still have to do what's right for your team, and you still have to make sure that, you know, you do what's right for your team, because in the end, the team is what matters, right? You know, those guys are the ones that are there, and in my case, that's probably the biggest reason that I still race. I like racing with Rodney. I like racing with my team.

I like racing at SHR. All those guys came to SHR. The core group of guys came to SHR because they wanted to be on the 4th team. We didn't have a car. We didn't have a hauler. They just believed in the situation. And until they all say, you know,

I want to be done with it, you know, I feel like that's what I have the most fun with at the racetrack is being with those guys. I thought you were going to be done. I was. Really? Yeah, 21 was originally it. How far did that conversation get?

I mean, as far as, you know how it goes, as far as the financial planning and how life was going to look. You had it all set up. It was all set up. And what happened? It was all set up. And, you know, we started having conversations about what we were going to do next, and that led to, you know, two more years in 22 and 23. And, you know, I think at this point in my career, it's really just about being at the racetrack with the group of people and the people that you like being around.

Racing the car is, I love the competitive side of it. And being in there and being able to develop a new car and have that knowledge of... Are you sure that that's not going to be the most frustrating thing you've ever done? It's going to be frustrating. Yeah, it's going to be frustrating. But there's also that reward. Like, look at this year, right? So the car, I mean, our cars, we were way off for half the year.

But by the time we got to the end of the year, we weren't the fastest car, but we scrimped and scraped and clawed and kept ourselves in it and battled and didn't win a race. And then we got to the last 10, 12 weeks of the season and had chances to win races and were competitive and got ourselves back to where we wanted to be from a competition standpoint just because of the fact that nobody pointed fingers, nobody kicked and screamed, it was okay what do we need to do this week what are we going to try this week to to fix this mess and everybody you know we never got to the point of actually winning a race but we did have a chance to win a few at the end of the year and we fixed it so it's going to be

it's going to be frustrating for sure um the gas pedal the gas pedal doesn't even work right so i don't envy there are so many things everything on the car is different the pedals are different the feel of it is different my seat's the same my steering wheel is the same the dash is the same and the stuff I wear is the same. Everything else is different. And it's, um, are you worried about having to make that choice of, of retiring? Are you worried about like, man, do I really know? So, there's a couple things there. So Rusty Wallace always felt like that he should have kept going till it was all out of his system, right? Talk to him. Yeah. And he regrets when he stopped. And he wanted to, he probably could have done a couple more years. You have, you know, a lot of things going on in

life that you could do. You got, you know, your son racing. You could pour yourself into that, which I'm sure you'll do. You've got opportunity in broadcasting that's there if you want it. So you have an idea of things that can keep you busy. But are you worried personally about where you'll find that competitive fire and how you'll relieve that? Yeah. Well, I've talked to Rusty. I've talked to Mark Martin, Dale Jarrett. I think, you know, Joe Girardi's been a good friend of mine. Who's at? Joe Girardi, used to be the manager of the New York Yankees and played ball through, you know, his years.

And so, you know, getting a different perspective from, you know, from outside of our sport, I'd say that that's probably been, you know, one of the biggest helps. Mark Martin, I mean, I sat down with him a couple years ago in Wyoming and just. just, you know, asked him, I'm like, why did you drive so long? Tell me why you drove? And one of the things that stuck out to me in that conversation, he's like, well, why wouldn't I? He's like, I like, I like driving a car. And there was just something about walking out of that racetrack and seeing my number on top of that scoreboard, or at least seeing my number on that scoreboard. He's like, once you walk out of that racetrack and, you know, you turn that, you turn that helmet in and you don't get to see your

number on top of that scoreboard at the racetrack, he's like, that's the thing I miss the most. I miss seeing my number on that scoreboard at the end of the day whether it was practice whether it was qualifying so you know taking those taking those perspectives and really you know trying to evaluate all that is is something that that is interesting right as you get towards the end of your career how do you evaluate all that but how do you also stay competitive and in tune with with your race team but driving that car i mean even for for broadcasting you know if i i enjoy the broadcasting piece of it, but it doesn't really have that competitive element that goes with driving the car, owning the car, working on a race team, those pieces of that competition. So, you know, I think as

as you look at, as you look at, you know, all those things and you take all that into into play, even broadcasting, though, driving that new car and understanding that new car, being a part of the development, in my opinion, makes you more valuable just because of the fact that you know a lot about the race car and, you know, being in there and being able to describe it because there's nothing about it that drives the same. It doesn't drive the same and it's not going to race the same. And, you know, I think the evolution of what we're getting ready to go through with this particular car, but also the world in general, right? You know, as you look at electric vehicles and you talk about hybrids and you talk about bringing other manufacturers in and, you know, the engine sizes and

where all that evolves to is going to be really interesting over the next five years because of the fact that, you know, there's so much that change is changing in the landscape of what we do. So, you know, how that develops and where that goes and how many road courses do we race on, how many of the mile and a halfs are going to be gone, how many of these short tracks are going to go to, you know, it seems to, it's kind of like restrictor plate racing. It always evolves to the end of a rules package, right? And we get to the end of that rules package, and it's like, okay, well, everybody knows how to do this, and then they change it.

and the racing changes and they have to try to figure it out. And I think as you look at that evolution of our sport, we've gone from, you know, we gotta get to bigger tracks, we gotta have bigger crowds, and now we're going right back to where we were 20 years ago, 25 years ago with the North Wilkesboro's, the Nashville Fairgrounds, you know, we're gonna race inside of a freaking football stadium.

So, you know, those short tracks and the way that our sport functions is going and looks in the types of tracks that we race, some of the cars that we race is going to be very different. Are you looking forward to all this? I mean, it sounds like there's a lot of hurdles, and you had a, it sounds like you really contemplated very hard, you know, making 2021 year last year, but yet there was enough there that you wanted to come

back for all this, but are you one of the drivers that are skeptical about this new car and skeptical about some of these changes? I mean, like the way you even mentioned the running the, the race in the football stadium. I mean, there's reasons to be skeptical or, you know, not jump right into the, oh, I can't wait. Where do you net out? Yeah, but I think a little bit of that skepticism is the fact. I think that's a little bit intriguing, right?

Isn't it? It is a little bit. For a fan it is. And I think when I say, we're going to race in a freaking football stadium, it's because most people in the industry wouldn't believe that you would ever race in a football stadium. But I can't wait to go there and look up in the grandstands and say, that I raced in the LA Coliseum. Now, I think when you look at that anticipation leading up to the car, the events,

yeah, I mean, there's a lot of questions that I have in my mind. But, you know, how fast can we grab those answers as a team? Okay, so are you satisfied with how the answers have been finding to you? Are you satisfied up to this point, the rate in which you're getting answers? Well, the rate that we've received answers up until this point when the team's got the car is, it's now at a much different rate because now it's a reality, but you also have enough really, really smart people to solve all the problems. With the team?

No, with the car in general. The teams are going to solve all the problems because of the fact that they have all the, they have all the engineers and the infrastructure to fix all these problems. NASCAR, they don't really have the infrastructure to fix any of those problems. They can develop a car and then they say, because all the smartest people, you know, they work for the teams. And, you know, I think when you say, okay, car's super hot inside and the teams come to you with 25 ideas and then the engineers, you know, come up with a solution to say, all right, well, here's how we

solve this problem and they solve those problems fast. You know, it's the aerodynamic problems, you know, behind the cars and how they drive in traffic and, you know, are they too slow? and but you know even after the Charlotte test I mean it's it's like there's no way that it looks like it did when we went to the Charlotte test when we get done as far as the rules package and the things that we race because they just you know they're going to be different and this car is going to evolve through the year the rules are going to change just like they just like they have with all the other cars um through the year so I think I think that those those rules are you know it's going to be a constant evolution please I'll go ahead so that's a great I was thinking about that Sharla Charlotte test and they're going to have another Charlotte test and they're going to try to give you guys some comfort, I guess, because the cars are really difficult to drive, really unpredictable, really without the, you know, straight quarter panels and all those, you know, things that I guess the guys are used to. The car is just, it's hard to understand where the tire is because of the shorter sidewall and you got grip and then you don't got grip. I mean, are you, is that what is, is that your experience driving the car? that it's a smaller box of forgiveness. It reminds me of the cars that we had in 2001, 2002, 99, 2000, in that era because, you know, when you step over that line, there's a consequence. But the problem that you have right now with this particular car is it's so aerodependent. And, you know, that aerodynamics is so out of balance right now because of the fact that you have.

have to tighten the car up so much mechanically to make it drive right that when you put it in traffic it doesn't it pushes it doesn't turn so we got to we got to be able to get the car to turn and be able to mechanically balance that car so that you can get some of that balance towards the front end of the vehicle and not just tighten the backup because the way that the way that this car drives it drives off the right rear tire on the ovals so you have a lot of right rear drive already, which, you know, the tires have staggered and everything in the car. So there's, there's no side force. The tail's centered on, on the car, the quarter panel is short. So, you know, I'm not saying that it needs all the side force. It just needs a little bit of security

so that you can shift that balance to the front of the race car so that it drives right in traffic. Yeah, it's interesting. It's a tough combination, right? Yeah. Well, you know, just listening to some of the drivers over since the Atlanta test and talking to a couple of guys, if you just don't Don't worry about what NASCAR is trying to achieve or whatever they are trying to achieve with pack racing or whatever it is. If you just listen to drivers and what drivers want, we, I say we, because I was part of that conversation five, six years ago, was less downforce, off throttle, harder to drive, sliding around, you know, so we could steer the tire in a different direction with a little softer compounds and things like that. get and not be so you know so conservative with the tire um and it seems like the things that this car it seems like some of those things are happening right some or this car is is harder to drive is uh you know does have uh less side force and is easier to bust your ass and you know guys are

going to get themselves in trouble you know out on the racetrack if they're not careful in certain scenarios where you couldn't spin the car out last year or over the last couple of years. I mean, I know the crew chiefs have found a way to make those cars hard to drive because they have to be fast, but it was hard to spend the car out. You know, you go to, you go to, you know, most of these racetracks and have pretty good security. And so now if we're stepping, you know, we're stepping toward a position to where I kind of worry that NASCAR is going to add skew and go back in the direction of really just kind of making the cars easier? Is that something they worry about? I think that would be the easy solution, right,

you know, to do all those things and step back. But the biggest thing that needs to be is balanced. It doesn't matter how much downforce it has or how little. So it has right now way too much everything that you do mechanically goes to the rear. So as soon as you have to drive, the car in traffic and it has an aerodeficiency, it goes immediately to a push because of the fact that you have to tighten it up so much mechanically. So the biggest thing we have to do is just get the car balance to the point that the front tires work from a mechanical standpoint so that when you get in traffic and that aerodynamics is less on the front than it was by yourself, you can still drive the car because the front end will turn and be able to race it in traffic and things like that. So I think

that's really the biggest obstacle. that we have to overcome. I don't think that anybody has a problem with getting to the point of having that car wrecked. And I think the reason that Austin probably wrecked his car, I think the racetrack was probably, it wasn't ready to go. But everybody's figured out that you just tighten the crap out of it until it drives right. And then every time you try to take a little bit away, you know, then you can't drive it by yourself because it's too loose, but you need it to be a lot better with the front in order to make the car drive well in traffic so that you can race it. What do you think is a good direction to go?

Ooh, man, that's a loaded question. I mean, you know the deal. It's sometimes it's just a way different race car. And, you know, I think you just have to, we have to keep, I like power. You know, I know that the goal was to have as little horsepower as possible. But man, it's, it's a car slow. and it's just on a mile and a half race track, it's just super slow.

And, you know, at the end of that test, we put, I guess it would be the Xfinity spacer on there and gave it 670 horsepower and you had to start letting off the throttle. And you would have still been wide open through one and two. But when you have to start, you have to be able to, if you're really going to have all those things that you just talked about with the cars sliding around

and being able to move around the racetrack and having the tires fall off, has to be able to spin the back tires. Right? And, you know, it's, I would vote for 1,000 horsepower. And, you know, I think, and just, I know we'll never get that. But I would vote for more horsepower, and we have to figure out how to make the car.

You know, we've talked so long about making the car less aerodependent. But the whole bottom of the race car is a pan. So, you know, and, you know, we put more power on there. I'm like, man, this thing actually drives better. I still have to lift a little bit in 3 and 4. They're like, well, you know, the faster you go, the more that under, you know, that under, paying it's going to make more power because you're going faster so it makes more speed it's going to it's going to make more grip so it's an interesting it's an interesting balance because what are we

eight weeks out from the first race so you know you got you got a lot of decisions that have to be made quick but you know i love the approach that that they have right now um involving everybody because that's that's the that's the best way to fix it is is real life real life solutions and and um you know working with the people that do it on a day of the basis. Going to the clash in L.A. So I drove the test car at Bowman. It was a blast. The car has a bunch of drive.

It stops incredibly. It does stop good. Yeah. And so I think the car, I didn't think it would go around that track very well, but it does it really nicely. And I've heard the car is incredible on a road course. So I think on a, on a small, tight kind of track or a track, you know,

a road course with all kinds of weird corners, the car is going to be fun to drive. So I think it'll be a good experience behind the wheel in turn. But the thing that I'm curious about is you get all these teams taking these brand new cars. This is the first race. I mean, as a driver, it shapes up to be kind of a pretty rough. beat and bang little

It's a quarter mile Right Yeah But you're taking a diamond Of a race car You're taking this Brand new piece out there right And so as a driver

I guess how do you approach that Are you Do you just block that out And I'm going to go do Whatever I need to do I'm going to be me I'm going to drive As aggressively as I feel like I need to be

Are you apprehensive About how to how to do that With this car How much you can do that with this car? how much the team's allowing, are they okay with you doing that? Right. I think that's going to be the big question. Yeah. You know, where is the team at? You know, what is our situation as far as at the shop? At the shop? And because the logistics of everything that we have to do at the beginning of the year is big.

And, you know, I think when you talk about going out west, tearing the body off the car, tearing the bumpers off the car, you know, banging up some wheels, whatever that is, it's probably going to be relatively, should be, relatively easy to fix. I think that the big question is going to be what happens at Daytona, right? In the qualifying races and in the Daytona 500, and I think as you look at the first part of the season, I think a lot of this is going to be survival. You remember the survival days, right? And I think there's going to be some broken parts and pieces. I think there's going to be, you know, some cars spun out. And, you know, I think there's going to be, you got to be ready for anything. And, you know, I think it's not just the first race, but it's also the day. Daytona 500 and the qualifying races, because as soon as you get done with those races,

you have to go to the West Coast. And the logistics of racing on the West Coast is usually we take our primary and our backup car out. They bring you two more cars out for the next week. They bring you those two cars home. They bring two more cars out for the next week. They bring those two cars home. And so, you know, the logistics of that with less cars is going to be different.

But one of the biggest things at the beginning of the year is just to not put yourself in a box. So I think you have to, I don't, I don't think you're going to be able to really, I don't think you're going to, I think you're going to tear the body off at, at the Coliseum race. I think the Daytona 500, you could destroy stuff. And then that starts to put you in a box for the West Coast swing. And when you get done with the West Coast swing, you've got to come all the way back east and, you know, do the next race, you know, out here. So, and there's a dirt race in there somewhere. How many cars does a team realistically expect to have built by the time season starts. I think we have one right now. By the time the season starts, though.

I mean, yeah, you know, I think from, that's an interesting question, right? Can you have all seven cars by the time the season starts? You're going to need them, but I don't know that. You could. Yeah. But because by the time you go to the Daytona 500, you're going to have two. Right. And then, you know, you're going to have to have. And you would have already race something in L.A. Yeah. And I think you'll be able, I think you could probably fix that car, you know, and do what you need to do with it to take it to Las Vegas or a Phoenix. Right. So that's that's two. But if you go to if you go and you go to Daytona and tear up and destroy that that first car, and then you have your backup car that's prepared to race differently probably than it's going to be prepared to race for Las Vegas or Phoenix.

So you know, it's it's you just you don't want to put yourself in such a box that you're just getting to the racetrack. You want to be able to get to the racetrack and have the details and the progression go. So I think it's going to be important to finish races and do the things and manage the first part of the season. quarter of the season needs to be managed well or it could get expensive and it could put your team in a big box. That's a great point and I think a lot of drivers probably don't even aren't even hasn't even crossed their mind. Yeah. To think that way and I think is that sort of the I know you're experienced as a driver and you've been in a sport a long long time but you think that your ownership experience kind of helps you in situations like this. Well I think so and you know I think

you have to think about it differently from the ownership side. I mean, you deal with it on a daily basis. You have to think about it. There's repercussions for everything, right? And I think when you have an accident at any racetrack and then you have another accident the next week, and if you tear something up four or five weeks in a row, it has a bad impact on the flow of the shop.

And you have to be aware of those types of things. And I really think that that's why we hung around this year to be in the championship. you know, conversation as we got to the playoffs. I mean, the speed and things with the car was not there, but the experience of our team and being able to navigate certain situations and get the most out of a day and be able to finish races is something that I think we did a really good job at this year.

And, you know, when we first started cup race, and that was really the topic of conversation is, at least it was at RCR. You know, that if you didn't do anything, you finished the damn race. You went out there and if it didn't have a hood on it, if it didn't have a deck lid on it, you did whatever you had to do to take the checkered flag. And now they just get out of them and climb in the ambulance. The last thing I want to do is get out of the damn thing and get in the ambulance and have to ride to the infield care center because that takes longer.

So, you know, I think it was Daytona in the summer. If you go back and look at that one, I think my car had two flat tires and it wouldn't drive straight. And they're out celebrating on Victory Lane. I'm trying to figure out how to get my car past start finish line. I just left it there, got out of the thing and went back. But that was the whole DNF thing was almost an embarrassment when you first started cup racing. And now it's like, all right, just pull it in. And it's like, what?

Pull it in. I'm going to get a DNF. I can't do that. Richard. Richard, well, it was like you quit, right? Right. That was just something that Richard would always say, we will not quit. If we're not going to do anything here, we are not going to quit because quiters don't ever win.

Yeah, that's so true. Hey, is this your first time back in the building since you raced here? It is. If you don't mind me asking. You know, as we look into the shop, there are a lot of banners in our shop that have your name on it. You won a bunch of races here. Yeah. And I was just, as you're talking, I'm just wondering, is this the first time you've been back?

It is. And I was always curious. Now, I might have a theory, but I might not. I don't know. But I just, I remember talking to you a couple of times. Let me ask you this and be honest. Okay. When you left Junior Motorsports, did you leave with 100% positive feelings about your experience here?

I, look, so when I came to Stuart Haas racing, it was, you know, we had decided that we were going to race it at Stuart Haas. But Rick was obviously a big part of that. I sat in Rick's office and I said, look, I said, I've always. race to you know the in the Xfinity series I've always raced trucks is there an opportunity to do that and he said that's no problem we'll we'll work on that and and you know that was how the deal developed here and you know I think as as you as you look at as you look at the first year and we just kept running races and winning races and being a part of everything was was a lot of fun and then they took my team away from me

Is that what happened? Yeah. Okay, okay, let's talk about that. Took a team away from me. That's right. And explain what you mean by that. Is your crew, you came with a crew chief? Yeah, so, yeah, so Ernie came, Ernie Cope came with me. He worked for us at KHA for a number of years.

And he came over to race here with myself and everything that we had put together here. And, you know, the second year, it just, it wasn't as much fun. You know, it was very similar. It was very similar to me, you know, to when everything happened in 2001 with your dad, and I inherited that team, right? So now I was with, it's just, it's the same reason that I talk about loving what I do right now. I love going to the racetrack with Rodney. I love going with a certain group of people.

And, you know, it's not that I didn't like the new people, but it wasn't really what I signed up for, right? It was something different and just it wasn't as enjoyable. And, you know, I think for me, it just, it was the biggest thing that I didn't want to do is I didn't want to make him mad. Right. So we finished the season and tried to just end it all because of the fact that I just wasn't racing with the people that I wanted to race with, but I didn't want to, I didn't want to burn any bridges. Were you going to wear that? I didn't. I don't think I was. So, well, I wasn't.

Oh, so here's how I found out. I found out that they took my team off Twitter. Oh, see, that sucks. Yeah. So nobody ever told me, and then he called and tried to fix it. I'm like, hey, man, it's all good. We'll just, we'll get through it and we'll move on with it. But everything happened.

I never even knew about it. That's unfortunate that that's the way it went. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, for me, it was really just about trying to end it as gracefully as possible to make sure that we didn't have any ill will as far as the way that it all went down, and we just moved on. Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, I tried my hardest to make sure that at every opportunity,

I expressed how much you help this company. Yeah. You know, and it's kind of like the situation that we're in now, right? We're getting ready to develop a new car. And it was fun because I could come in the shop, and Ernie was like, all right, here's what we're doing, this is what we're doing. And the first year it was, it was a lot of fun. And you asked me to be honest.

So I appreciate that. Because honestly, I remember this. So everybody remembers things differently. This one thing we've learned is that, and I've always wondered that about you because of how much, first of all, how much fun it was having you here. Also, you brought a, you brought a discipline and a sense of priority that we were not really that familiar with, to be honest with you. And I don't know how you kind of get into these ruts and these trends that are, you know,

in hindsight, they are very obviously unhealthy. But then it's like you come in with so much, you know, discipline and you knew exactly what you wanted. And I'm not even talking about just the race car. I'm talking about in the office. I remember you in terms of how you dealt with your sponsors, how you dealt in the business side of it. Like it almost seemed like this company needed a recalibration of everything, right? Yeah. And you brought it and you won races.

And it was just like this rejuvenation. I thought that you will always be credited for, at least amongst people internally that lived through it, as you were the reason for that. Yeah. Which is why it sucks that it kind of ended the way it did, I guess. Well, and for me, I have a, I probably, I probably have a bad habit of just saying,

okay, well, if that's the way that it is, I just, we'll just dwindle it down to nothing and just go away, right? And just because you don't want to, you don't want to, You don't want to, you just, at that particular point, you just didn't want any ill feelings about the way that anything went. You just wanted to go away. And in my mind, you look at it and you say, well, all that will circle around at some point. And here we are today having a conversation about it.

But, you know, all that stuff circles around and you fix it down the road somewhere and you talk about it down the road somewhere. But at that point, you just, it was really only about him. That was as far as not wanting to make any waves at that particular point. because we were still in the whole, you know, Hendrick mix and still had a lot of things going on and still, you know, dealt with things. And he didn't have anything to do with it. At that particular moment, you know, it was a decision that Hendrik had made and Rick had made and, you know, the people here had made. And so, you know, it was really just about doing it down to nothing, not making any waves and going, you know, a different direction.

So did that – did that – So Chase ended up taking your team. That has nothing to do with your feelings about Chase today. Interesting. Not at all. Look, and I've got a really short memory. And I think as you learn a lot about this sport, it's always better to just bury the hatchet, move on.

And there's just a lot of good people that see it. in different ways than you see it. And you have to be able to take that and respect that and understand that. And I think, you know, time usually heals a lot of those things. But, you know, the whole thing with Chase this year, that was all stuff that developed this year. I have no ill will about anything that. I don't like the way that it was handled. I wouldn't have handled it that way.

But as my wife tells me, it's not your team or it's not your situation. So the way that you would do it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, that, you know, that, that, that, that doesn't have anything. I was just curious. No, no, not all. I mean, if I go, if I have this right, I mean, you actually, before this year, I mean, you've been a pretty big proponent of Chase, have you not? You've been a big advocate for Chase.

In fact, if I remember this correctly, you were even saying, you know, the success of the sport, you know, he has a, he has the biggest key to that, like, as far as influence because of his popularity and everything. So I always, that's what I've found to be. ironic through all of your dustups with Chase is that I I've won was you know both of your success here there's two dustups really really is it just two I mean just this year but but but for them just to be two they were big big big right I mean like y'all didn't just have a little I mean it was big yeah uh and good for you I in fact I don't ever remember you having dustups that were small frankly I mean everything

if you're not jumping off somebody else's car but look you're in 2002 jumping off somebody's car That was probably the only thing you remember that happened good that year, right? No, no. For you? The only thing that good happened in 2002, sometimes you have to keep yourself relevant. That was your attempt to keep yourself relevant? You did it. It was in race four that year, that Xfinity race.

Yeah. Bristol is a big track for you. Man, that Bristol is a big track. Okay, since we're here talking, we now know what the situation was at Junior Motorsports. You say it was Al-Badale on why you want to do. wanted to go out gracefully. 2017 in the comments that you make about, in fact, I think that I'm, I'm curious if you're

even aware, I'm curious if you're even aware that you're one of like maybe two or three people that we said probably would never be on this show. I have never listened to the show. No, that's fine. I'm not, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. But I would say that there's a lot of people, when you said you came in through, you know, passing fans, I wasn't even sure if they might.

to say like that it's been kind of let's just call it a topic of conversation the narrative over the last several years i did get a heads up i did get a heads up that you that you had a lot of a lot of this topic of conversation i did i i i me personally you personally oh well i'm not the only one in the room yeah you know so let's just since we're just airing it out let's just let's just air this is where we got to do it so here's how all that started so for for for me me, you had retired. I was in the middle of my- he was trying to. In the middle of retirement.

So the way that all that started, it was all over, I was in the middle of a contract negotiation that year, and it all started over the comment about driver salaries. And at that particular point, I don't know that I'd actually probably gotten over all this, to be honest with you. You think? Yeah. So you were still a little bit.

Come on. It's still a little bit better. Oh, yeah. You had not gotten over. Yeah. You know, I believe that. And it's still a little bit bitter about that. And then for me, I was like, man, I thought he was on the driver's side.

And then talking about salaries going down. And I'm like, I've got to change the narrative of the conversation. We had the happy hour's show at that particular time. And the narrative about driver salaries was gone at that particular moment because of everything that was set on the show. And, you know, I think as you look at that, definitely not. the right way to handle to handle all that and and by Dale no no no no by me just just in the way that it would have all went down and you know I think as as as as you look at that you know taking the dig at the drivers and their salaries and and everything that that was was said at that particular

moment that was just something that I didn't want in the news and didn't want that to be a topic of of conversation and and you know said said the things that I said and and then you know you know, you have to live with those, right? So you're saying, and I think that if we're doing podcasting right, which we never pretend to know what we're doing. Is that what we're, I thought we were doing a TV show. Whatever it is. There's a few cameras.

But the comments were basically that, and I'm paraphrasing here, but the comments were that you said that Dale Jr. is stunting the growth of the sport. I think some of the growth in the sport has kind of been, has not reached the levels that should have because our most popular driver hasn't been our most successful driver. Dale Earnhardt Jr. has won the most popular driver for however many years in a row. And he has been our sports most popular driver, but he hasn't been anywhere close to being our most successful driver. And when you look at other sports and you look at basketball and you look at football and you look at their most popular drivers, they're also right up there on the top of the

list as their most successful drivers. So for me, I believe that Dale Jr. has had a big part in and kind of stunning the growth of NASCAR because he's got these allegiance of fans and these, you know, this huge outreach of being able to reach different places that none of us have the possibility to reach. But he's won nine races in 10 years at Hendrick Motorsports and hasn't been able to reach outside of that. So,

you know, it's not, I know that those aren't the most popular comments, but it's, uh, those are, those are, those are,

those are, those are, those are, those are, those are, those are, and, and,

and, and see on the stats. Imagine how popular he would have been if he'd won two or three championships. Totally great. That's what this is all about. His dad was popular because of the fact, he became Dale Earnhardt, because of the fact that he won seven championships and he was out there grinding every week. That hasn't happened.

Yeah, so, you know, I think our sport is very interesting, right? So, you know, you look at Dale and Chase and a lot of the traditional NASCAR racing families and the heritage that they have in this sport. Our sport is a very much of a family sport and I think when you look at when you look at that that's all of that right and you take all that in there's just a there's just a there's a heritage that that lives in our sport with with you know families and the traditions that they build forever and you know I think for for me it's always been very interesting to me as to why, and this doesn't, this doesn't have anything to do with his popularity, that's always going to be there, but why Jimmy Johnson was never more popular

than he was. Do you not wonder that sometimes? Well, if you'd listen to this show, we talk about it all the time. Oh, you do? Yes. I feel exactly the same way you do about Jimmy, knowing the guy he is, the person he is. I mean, why is he not, why is he not more, I mean, he's celebrated, but why isn't he He's all-American. He fits the mold. He's perfect. He's the Atlanta Braves of NASCAR. Why isn't he the most popular?

And that's really how this conversation got started. No, no, no. I think that there was a piece or an element, if I remember correctly, I'd have to go back and figure all that out. There was a piece or an element that had started with, you know, the popularity of Jimmy Johnson. And it developed into what it developed into with talking about taking a dig at him because of the fact that, you know,

it wasn't the winningness driver that Jimmy Johnson was. None of us are. And why Jimmy Johnson wasn't the most popular driver. When you look at other sports, you know, you look at LeBron James and you look at football and it's... Patriots, I guess. Yeah, I guess it would be Tom Brady. You know, and it's just, it's, our sport is different in a number of different ways.

And, you know, we'd even talked about it at one point. I believe when you talk about Jimmy Johnson, when you pair him up with Jeff Gordon and Dale Jr., it's impossible for him to ever capture those two fan bases because of the fact those fan bases were developed, but they also started with a huge magnitude of people and things. So wrong way to go about it. Was it the wrong way? Wrong way. When did you think it was wrong? You know, I thought it was, you know, after you get a year or two probably into that, it was probably, I knew it was wrong when you called Josh. Did I call Josh?

Absolutely. Oh, I don't remember that. And said, what the, why is he doing this? It sounds like something I do. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think at that point, you, it's kind of like getting out of the car. You're mad about what somebody says, and then you fire back, and then you're like, well, can't take that back.

So I'm not going to, I'm not hiding from it. Not to minimize my comments, but it was 2017. I was in the middle of my retirement year, and so every weekend they would take me into the media center to do whatever they were going to do. And they would always ask me about current topics and everything coming in and out of the sport every week. And we were, they were asking me about Matt Kenseth and why he's getting shuffled out of Gibbs and how he's probably not going to have a ride or how we'll leave that. Who will hire him, right? And so I was thinking, well, Matt's got to bring his asking price down. And you got these other drivers coming in like Byron and these kids that'll take nothing to take his job.

Right. Take his – he'll – if I'm an owner, I'll pay, you know, Christopher Bell or William Byron half or way less than hiring Matt. And not knowing that you were in the middle of a contract negotiation. And you weren't the only driver that came to me. and said I had a problem with what you said. Yeah. You know, and so I just want you to know, I guess, that I probably could have kept my mouth shut about that.

Yeah, me too. And that- I could have done the same. That was definitely. I have a hard time with that. I go into that media center every week and they're asking you questions and you just answer them, right? Yeah.

And you tell your truth or whatever you feel like you believe. That's right. But that was probably a conversation that you're probably, I guess I understand. and absolutely why you were upset about that. Well, here's the other problem to that piece. I had a radio show and a producer and you get fed. Yeah.

This is what was said, and it might be half of it or it might be three-quarter. Yeah. And then you're like, well, that. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. So he gave you the ammo and you started you right up. Oh, yeah. And so.

But I still said it. I can't blame it. I'm not trying to blame it on somebody else. I text you after us, after I heard about the comment. And I said, damn, that sucked. And you said, it probably made you feel the way I feel about your comments. Yeah. And so I.

Oh, Kevin said that to you. Yeah. I mean, like a day later. And so I'm glad that, you know, I've used this show and, you know, for a long time to talk to people that, you know, that I have these differences with or, you know, my feelings are heard or, or, or, you know, you know, my feelings are heard or, or, or, you know, you know, had a fight or an argument or me and Kyle Busch somehow or another got into that studio over there in that booth and had a conversation and we get along okay. He brought beer to be clear. I wouldn't say we're best friends and we don't go to dinner, but we're good.

Right. And, you know, with your history, I mean, I've known you for a long time. Oh, yeah. And I want to talk about that, you know, but I, and that hurt my feeling so bad when you did that. and I knew that you didn't feel that way. Like, I knew that you weren't just having a general conversation. I knew it was a hatchet job because of what I'd said. And so I, but I did want to fix it at some point.

And so I hope that, you know, beyond today, we can both agree that it's regrettable and get back to being friends. Yeah, no, I agree because that's the one thing about this sport that most people don't know, right? You have to be around people, and you have people that you have a lot in common with. And I think for me, I choose to almost be silent and just go away from things and just not talk about them and just not be around them. And that's probably all the time not the right way to do it. And I think for me, I say stuff that you look back on and you're like, oh, my God, why in the world would you say that? And I think as you get older, you start to, you start to, you know, I'm the same way.

It's good to fix those things because, you know, for us, we've obviously been around this for a long time. And I think for me, I feel this the same way. I wish that things would have went different for the Xfinity deal. And it frustrates me to know that, you. you felt that went the way it went, and you were frustrated by that for a good period of time because you deserve better than that. And just because we were friends, you deserve better than that,

but also for what you did for this company and who you are is your stature as a driver in the sport at the time. You deserve better than that. But, you know, let's just bury the hatchet. you said early. Let's bury that hatchet. That's the point, I guess, Mike, you ain't got any more to talk about on that, do you? Yeah, I'm not, I'm just getting started. No, I'm kidding. I would, I actually wanted, I think you guys are sort of addressing it, but I was always curious with Kevin. Again, we live such, we have such different vantage points and perspectives, and I was always curious if there was this, if you detected a palpable tension between you and Dell in the aftermath of,

that? Like, did you, did you, or were you just completely oblivious to it? I think, I think there was, you know, I have this, I have this ability to just block things out. Compartmentalize. Yeah. I think that's a common trait that all drivers have, frankly. And I think, um, the unfortunate part about what we do is you can, you can stay so busy and you can get so consumed with your little bubble that you can ignore everything else. Okay. Until you are in a setting like this, right? And I think in the end, everybody had to agree to come to this setting and say, okay, I mean, I think we all knew what was this was going to be talked about today. And I think everybody wanted to just get it all out there and bury that hatchet because of the fact that I want to be his friend. I want to be your friend.

We had a lot of, well, even before this place, we had a lot of good times of things that had that had happened leading up to this point. And, you know, I think for me, when I came to this particular organization for the Xfinity deal, I felt like I was coming into something that I was going to be a part of to help progress and run and just somewhere that you could have fun on Saturdays and really, really be a part of it. And, you know, I think when that all went down the second year, you were like, well, that sucks. That's really not what I had pictured in my mind. But in the end, you know, all that is, all that is in the past. And I think it's good to be able to hear it from all angles because knowing how much it hurts his feelings and, you know, makes me really realize, you know, how detrimental the things that you can say sometimes, you know, hurt other people.

And I know you're mad, but you probably have heard it from different perspectives. You've probably heard it from a different perspective than you've ever heard it from today with things that you've never talked about, too. So I think that's always good and healthy to get all that. I'm glad you feel that. And I'm glad you brought up the relationships because, you know, it's funny. People will go with us and I don't know if you see it because I don't think you're as drawn to social media. But like, you know, people, your fans will be like, oh, Kevin said something mean to me. I'm so hurt.

I wish he was our friend. He said meanie now. And I'm just like, all right, all right, I got it. Maybe we have that coming. But here's the thing. y'all don't understand like how much how much we like Kevin like that was the thing it's like it was like yeah yeah he's just that he was that guy and there's been a lot of drivers come through here I don't give a damn about I ain't gonna I ain't gonna lie but but you were special here you were special

that time here I was not even aware of all the other stuff that was happening in the second year the the reason why we would have taken that personal and I've thought about this is that you got a guy who has already announced his exit. Like he's hitting the exit. He's going out. So the timing of it. And now I know what the source of it was, which I'm not even saying I disagree with you on that.

I know what the source. Your intention I don't think was to be personal, right? To Dell. The thing is is that what I wish people would understand is that like ultimately as humans, there's a lot of like, you know, name calling and stuff you couldn't give a damn about. It doesn't matter. But like when you sort of go at someone's legacy, especially as they're trying to leave the sport?

Well, that might be one of the more insulting things that could be said. And I don't know if that was even intentional or if you would have even realized it. But that's how I took it is that, wait a second. He isn't, you know, 75 years old, Peter and around the racetrack, you know, in everybody's way. Like, he's already had his retirement press conference. He's leaving the sport. It kind of felt like kicking a man while he's, you know, down a flight of stairs or something as he's trying to leave. But ultimately it was like the timing, what we got to do for the next several months in

retirement was defend a legacy. That's what, you know, and you know, he's talking about going into the media center, you know, he could think of 10 other what places he'd rather be than answering questions in a media center. And yet, here he is, now answering questions about, well, was Kevin right? Was Kevin right? I mean, because that was the debate over the next month, at least was Kevin, you know, you'd hear it like, well, he ain't wrong. Dale ain't won. He ain't winning. And so it was just a constant reminder that, oh, yeah, we're not winning.

Oh, yeah. We could be hurting a sport. And I don't, that's, that was the only reason why it became personal, I think. And I know that, and I certainly, Kevin, not once do I ever think, like you should care about what I think about anything. I'm too inconsequential to all that. But sort of like your producer would egg you on. I probably did the same thing to Dale.

I ain't going to lie. Well, that's the other thing is I get it, right? Like listening to you talk and everything that you say is 100% true, right? You know, and everything that you feel and say is probably not exactly the way that I would feel, but I have feelings about it too. So my point is, you know, when you hear it from your angle, it's like, I get it. I hear it from your angle. I get it, and it helps me realize, it helps me realize the things that I could have done better

or different and how much it actually, you know, hurt the situation and hearing it from your angle, I don't ever, like, I don't listen to Josh, so I definitely wouldn't listen to you. But I would listen to you today. And because, and really any day, just because of the fact that you have to have those, those perspectives. Because you guys, everybody sees it from a different light. And you could take that and relate it right back to the car. You have to be open-minded to listening to other people's opinions

because of the fact that everybody looks at it differently, and there's 39 other cars that are in this garage with a whole different group of people, and there's people running businesses and doing shows. And so those feelings and those conversations and those opinions, they matter. But, you know, up until this point, we've never heard each other's opinions since those days because of the fact that, I don't know, I'm stubborn.

I know that. Well, so you have had, you know, a lot of moments with a lot of different drivers in the sport. And it's, you know, there's drivers in our, in the history of stock car racing now talking sportsmen and through the 60s and 70s and 80s. There's guys that are just guys you don't mess with, right? Tommy Ellis and Jack Ingram and all those guys that you just don't push around and if you do, you know what's coming. You're kind of that guy in the sport. There's not a, you're not particular.

You know, if you feel like you got used up or if you feel like somebody put you in a bad situation, you'll handle it, right? You went up to Carl Edwards in the garage area and had him in a headlock. like I never would have thought to get physical with Carl Edwards a pretty big boy. Yeah. So I want to take this back to your childhood, you know, and you're a wrestler, right? Yeah. Well, I wrestled in high school.

Right. Yeah. So were you a scrap? Were you scrappy? Like, were you in school? Were you a fighter? Not at all. Where did this come?

When did this start? Yeah. So for me, it, you know, I think the way that I raised all started with, you know the way that my dad expected me to race why what is what is who is your dad talk about my dad was a fireman um mom was a secretary and you know I think for for me I grew up when we watched races we watched him on Sunday and my dad was an ironhead fan right that was that was that was exactly what we watched racing for on Sundays and and and that was how your dad was referred to in our house was was ironhead yeah and so you know for for me that

the expectation was don't ever take anything from anybody. When you get in that race car, you're the same size, and there's a problem. My dad was a big, big man, 6 to 225 pounds, just big guy. And it was you do whatever you have to do in that race car, we'll handle it. And that was just always the way that I was taught to race. So, you know, if you weren't close enough to the wall or you weren't doing what you were supposed to do in traffic, you heard about it when you got done. And the expectation was to get everything out of every lap.

And if you had a chance to win the race at the end, you did what you had to do. And if somebody roughed you up, you roughed them back up because when you got done, it was we'll take care of the rest of it. How long in your driving career was that part of your experience, hit your father, you know, or that control? Yeah, well, you know, I don't think it was so much control. It was just an expectation. But when did that, when did you, when did you, when did, when did you, when did,

you go to the racetrack and not have that. Yeah. Well, it became when you started to make that turn as a professional. So I race go-karts up until the time I was 16 because at that point you couldn't do anything else until you were 16. 16, I went to late metal stock cars at Mason Marin at my local track. And I guess 94, I went on my senior trip. and I came home and my light model was sold. Why?

Well, he thought, well, the first year we wrecked five out of seven races. The second year, we won the championship. We won the first four out of five races the third year, and he thought that it was time to move on. So sold the car to buy a Southwest Tour car. And we had this random guy walk up as we were running Southwest Tour races in the Northern California, and he was an investment maker, and he said, hey, I want to be a part of your team.

I want to take you. to the next level and, you know, buy the cars that you need and, you know, be a part of, be a part of the race team. So we went through the Southwest Tour days and when that deal all kind of fizzled out in 96 and 97 at the beginning of the year, I was going to the local junior college and I was not in the right spot. And I was like, man, yeah, I would just, you know, I just wasn't going to be successful there. So I had a friend who had gone to work that had worked with me in my late models, and he had gone down to Spears. Spears race team was really the only team on the West Coast that race nationally. So he went to work down there, and he said, hey, if you

want to come down here and work, maybe you get the opportunity to drive. So everything kind of fizzled out with our personal race team. You weren't racing. Well, kind of off and on. I would jump in, I would jump in cars as my buddies would be at the racetrack. I started working on the cars, and we had our own shop and we were working on other people's cars to you know to to race at the local track and so we didn't we didn't really race much because we didn't we didn't have any money to money to race so 97 I decided to go work as a mechanic at at spears with my friend Paul and I moved down there and he did not dad did not like that because it was kind of abandoning the family business and and the race team well it was it was the race team yeah yeah so I just refer to that as the business

because that's where I worked. I mean, from the time I was in fourth grade, I was the one that I wrote all the checks. And that was part of what he wanted me to do was handle the checkbook and manage the funds and learn how to do all that, because that was just what he thought he was teaching me at that point. And obviously, good lessons to learn.

But at that point, I had said, I'm not going to race here anymore. I'm going to go to work for the race team. And maybe I'll get a sure. maybe I'll get a shot. And from that point on, there was a lot of tensions. And, you know, from he and I just because of the fact that I had moved on and kind of left him out of the plan. But at that point, you had to make a decision.

So I quit college and went to Spears to work for $25,000 a year as a general mechanic. And about halfway through 1997. Who's driving? Dan Press. Okay. Dan Press was in the truck that year. And I think at the end of 96, I ran the Winston West race. And I think Nathan Buckkey, do you remember that name?

I think Nathan was driving the truck, and they had switched to Dan for the 97 season. If I have all that correct, I don't know if I have it all correct. But Wayne let us take the Winston West car from the shop and bring it to my shop. Back home. Back home. So we put it in Dad's shop. And was the tension between you and your dad still there? Oh, yeah, tension was pretty high.

And so I don't remember what happened, but his work hours were a lot different than my work hours. Okay. He's a firefighter. He wanted to work early in the morning and go home at dark. And I wanted to work when it got dark until early the next morning because then I could sleep all day. So those work habits, you know, didn't quite see eye to eye. And I think for me, that was really when the tensions got high when he basically threw all the wheels and tires out of the shop

and said, don't bring your shit back in here. You need to go and take your car to the racetrack. And that was really the point where it migrated completely separate. And so we went and raced the Winston West car that night and did okay. And I don't remember where we finished third or fourth and had a good outing. And he gave me an opportunity to run.

a second truck at Louisville, Kentucky in 1997. I think we finished 11th. Spears? Yeah, Spears. And so he removed the driver, and I drove it for the rest of the year. And then we started 98, and we started at winter heat running the West Series. And I think from that particular point on, everything just started to evolve, and you started to take advantage of opportunities.

But we convinced Wayne, we convinced Wayne after we won, I think we won the first winter heat race and I think we won two out of the first three races to let us run both divisions. That was really the first time that we were going to run the Winston West and the truck series. And we wound up getting to the summertime and had the points lead and we convinced him to let us keep running. And Wayne came out one day and he said, all right, if you guys want to keep running, you're not taking the truck and trailer. There's a 1977 Winnebago on the side that doesn't run. If you guys can get that thing running and you can take this 24 foot trailer. But we had one car, we had one Winston West car.

We had that 1977 Winnebago that we hauled it with to, we took it up to the old Portland Oval that they had up there. We took it to Monroe, all the races that conflicted. We had more fun in that freaking motor home as a group of people with the guys that worked on the car. We traveled up and down in that thing, and it was loud, had green shag carpet in it. But we had more fun in that than we did at any truck race

that we went to that year. We wound up winning the championship that year. And at the end of that year, everything had pretty much separated. And that was when I had. What do you mean? Between my father and I, as far as where that relationship went because of the fact that. Y'all's relationship is severed at that point. For a while.

And dad came back in the mix. We went to 99, went to drive for Brad Doherty and Jim Herrick in Ohio. And that's really when it all started to evolve pretty fast. And so that was really when the big boom started of everybody trying to look for young drivers and had to have Xfinity cars and Bush series cars and tried to develop the new drivers. And at that particular point, I had signed a three-year deal with the 98 truck. Yep, the red truck. Yeah, the red 98 porter cable truck to drive that truck.

And the next freaking year, I went and bought my first house, met my wife. Wait. Where did you buy your house? I bought it on Lake Norman. Where is your shop? Ohio. Why did you buy a house here when your shop's in Ohio? There was no way I was living in Ohio.

And Delana was not in Ohio. Delana was not in Ohio. So I bought my, Lindy, Hornaday, went and found me a house. She picked it out, and I bought it. That was 1999. I just lived in it. she handled everything else. Do you remember coming to my basement with Delana?

Yeah, it was myself and Delana, Freddie Query and his wife, Jack Sprague. Was that not y'all's first date? Yeah, it was our first date. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. My first date ended peeing in the flower bed outside of his double wife. It is.

As most states do, as they usually do. But wait a second. So your first date with Delana, was it your basement? That was one of the stops on New Year's, right? Yeah, yeah. Y'all, they came in there, They were feeling good.

Was it a bathroom stop or something? The flower bed? Where else did you go? No, he was having a party. We had a party in the basement of the house. We had a nightclub in his basement. Yeah, yeah. And so he comes, Freddie came in there.

Who else was with you? Jack Sprague. Okay. Freddy's like, hey, you know this guy? And I was like, hey, Kevin, what are you doing? And then Kevin, Kevin's like, I'm introduced you to Delana. Yep. And Freddy's like, they're on their first date.

That's right. I'll never forget it. Yeah, that was, that was, I think we went to, I think Randy LaJoy had his New Year's party. You had a New Year's party and I don't remember the other places that we went but yeah, that was, that was a good night. Yeah. Good night and you stop and think about all those, all those names, you know, Sprague.

Yeah, and Freddie and LaJoy. But Delana, Delana worked for Freddie. She did the PR on Freddie's stuff when he was kind of trying to make that transition in. and I don't know how we wound up with Sprague. That's a good question. Was it Delana? Was she not PR for LaJoy as well?

She did. Yeah, she did Randy's PR after she did Freddie's stuff. Okay. She started with Jeff Gordon's team. I guess that would have been 95, 96. I don't remember which championship year that was. So that was your first date. Yeah.

That's funny. Didn't know that, did you mind? No, didn't see that. Where did you meet? we met at the um through todd barrier uh at the r c r c r c christmas party i didn't have a date well you were on the party circuit that that whole well oh yeah trust me man that was that was part of the part of the the whole tour right if you weren't if you weren't having fun you might as well not race um but you know i think let's see that would have been i have to get my i have to get my time straight here so

that would have been the end of 99 and then um We bought the house and then we lived off of Delaney's credit cards because I had to buy myself. Richard made me buy myself out of my contract. I had two more years left in my contract. So I just bought this house in the 98 truck. I just bought this house, got the opportunity, decided to go race with Richard. Yeah. And he's like, I ain't buying out of your contract.

If you can't get out of your contract, you need to go somewhere else. Was it a lot of money? It was $200,000. It was a lot of money to me. Oh, $200,000. I had to take a second mortgage out on my house. And we lived off of Delaney's credit cards until I started. getting paid the next year. So that's how we survived from... Is her credit shot for that for the rest of time?

We dealt with credit for a while. I had to borrow some money from Fred who still works for me and has handled everything for me since that particular day of signing a bad letter of intent that I had to buy myself out of. But I mean, it was a good investment. Yeah. Just short-term paying, long-term gain. So yeah, you know, I went from the Spears situation to the Porter Cable, Brad Doherty's situation and then, you know, had to make a decision on where to drive. And ultimately, it came down to want to drive on the same team as your dad because of the fact that there was really nothing at Joe Gibbs at that particular moment. Cal Wells was just getting started.

And I think my dad was the only one that voted for going straight to Cup and running the 96 car. But Horn Day talked me out of that and we wound up going to Richards. So we were in, I think we were doing a Seema show or something in Vegas, and I was, it was in the 99, AC Delco Chevy guys or whatever said, Harvick's going to drive the ACDalco car next year. You need to help that transition or whatever. And I'm like, okay, whatever that means. Yeah. And so we went, me and you went to the crazy horse.

Do you remember? Yeah, we ended up in the strip club. Yeah. I mean, you know, talking about buying a house. Helping him along, as you were asked to do. So, straight to the crazy horse. Yeah, so we had, we had some good times. Yeah, we did.

And I remember one time we went to midnight to six. You remember going to midnight to six club in Charlotte, downtown Charlotte? I don't remember that one. Well, you probably don't because you're throwing up in your T-shirt. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That threw up in my T-shirt.

And then they had the bucket on the ground, and I just sat there the rest of the night. He finally ended up in using the bucket. That was so funny. We had this sort of VIP space. And I was standing at the doorway, either coming in or out, and somebody goes, hey, look at Harvick. And he was not doing so well. That's funny.

That was a fun night. Oh, yeah. So we used to run around. Yeah, that was right at the – that was before the end of 99. So that would have been like early fall, you know, towards the three-quarter mark of the season or so. Yeah, but you – okay, yeah, and I'm putting it all together. You're still running your last year in the Xfinity series.

You win a championship that year. His relationship with Hornaday connection there. Right. Going to RCR. So I'm seeing a lot of Kevin. And we were becoming friends. That's right. So one of the things that I want to ask you about right around this time,

I've not heard sort of the backstory on this, but the second, I think the second race of the year, y'all go to Rockingham. Oh, yeah. You missed the race somehow. I've never notoriously been a great qualifier, but at that point there were 60, 70 cars, right? Yeah, it was crazy.

We had no points because the A.C. Delco sponsorship was at DEI, and it went from DEI to RCR, so we basically started a brand new team. Yeah, that's right. Different car number and everything. That's right. The thing that I'll never forget, and maybe I dreamt this up, but they couldn't find you. Oh, I left.

I left the racetrack. Yeah. So I was so distraught because, you know, at that particular point, you'd kind of made your bed, right? Yeah. So you're either going to sink or swim in this deal, and I'm sinking. Week two. You're on your own. Week two, yeah.

Week two, where the ship is sinking. And hold up, hold up. How did Daytona go memorable for you? I think we finished top. I think we finished fourth or fifth. Okay, so it was a decent race there for it to start. And now you're at Rockingham. Go ahead.

Yeah, so missed the race. didn't make the race in qualifying. I think qualifying at that time was one lap, right? Yeah. So you did disappear? I disappeared. I went back to the hotel and just laid in the bed. Shut all the shades, just left Delaney at the racetrack and just went back to the hotel.

She found a ride back to the hotel. Did you open the door when she knocked on it? Well, yeah, I definitely opened the door. And I think they all kind of knew what had happened. have the milk jugs. Will Lynn made two milk jugs that had my face on it that said missing and then they had another one that said found. Do you remember how they used to do that on the milk jugs? So I still have those two milk

jugs that. So you're only missing for that evening? I was missing for that evening. How do you remember this? Like what do you remember from you said they were looking for you? Do you have been his team looking for him? Richard, nobody knew where he went immediately because he just he was gone. I had to wrap my arms around the situation. He was in a bad way. And, you know, I've always wondered about that.

Yeah. Because, like I said, you know, we were becoming friends. And so I was like, man, what's going on? Yeah. Yeah, so I had just met Delana in late December, you know, at the end of that year. And we'd started dating. And then we went to the, we went to Rockingham, missed the race, wound up disappearing for a little bit. But, you know, that ship rideed itself, too.

And I think missing that race was probably good for our team. And then I got sat down again about week 12 or 13 because we had torn some stuff up. And I had to get brought into Richard's office to say, hey, man, you're either going to have to stop hitting stuff. We've got to start riding the ship. And the next week we went out and won at St. Louis and everything before that kind of was forgotten, other than, you know, the milk jugs and things that... You still have those. The milk crates and things that stick around.

Oh, yeah, they're sitting in my... They're sitting in my trophy room there at home. That's pretty cool. Yeah. That was a special group of guys, though. Yeah. You know, I think when you look at Will, obviously, you know Will. You had some of the original flying aces there.

Yeah. And, you know, you had Will and David Smith. And, you know, I think, you know, for me, it was myself and Todd Barrier. and Mike Dillon and, gosh, who was Lance? Was it Lance Dieters that was the crew chief on Mike Dillon's car at that time? Eventually, Gil Martin came in. But so many of the key players in RCR for a number of years were all brought into that particular team.

A lot of them came from the Truck Series team that I guess Jay Sauter was driving at the time. And they shut the Truck Series team down and brought those guys in. And really, you know, know we went through we went through 2000 we won a few races and then you know as as we got towards the end of 2000 we actually started doing all the all the cup testing for your dad so he hated testing yeah you know who was doing it before uh was mike dillon i's not to mike dillan

we would go to dad we go to taladega to no one's there just their team testing and mike's out there driving a car i'm like the hell yeah i'm like how many races you What would this guy have won if he'd actually done all his own testing? Oh, you took your dad. Do you remember the aschewan that we got in Phoenix that year? No. You don't remember that? So we went to Phoenix at the end of 2000.

And we were in that hauler, and he was so mad because we were the fastest in his car at Homestead, and he had to go to the media center and answer all the questions about not wanting to drive his car and how his car is fast and is he going to retire and everything that came with it. And you just happened to be in the holler with me that day. And he was hopping mad when he came in here. He took myself and Richard, and I believe you got to go up into the lounge and listen to his rant as well. All his ass rippins run together at this point. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, so he was not happy. But, you know, we developed the three-fives and a two at Kentucky because Chevrolet had decided that they were going to develop a new suspension package, and it was really revolved around everything was around the three car. But that's where they developed the one-four shocks. That's where they developed all the coil binding and the soft springs and everything that kind of changed the way that everybody used the springs to make the car work.

So we developed all that stuff. We stayed there for seven days. If he was in the car testing, none of that shit would ever got tried because he was like, that's not going to work. So we tested for seven days, and he, we took that car, the car that he didn't like, was car 51. We took car 51, and that was our test car. That was the one that I drove.

And we went to Kentucky for seven days for that particular test before Indy. So we were testing for Indy. We were developing a new package for him to try at Indy. So they took that car from the test. They loaded it into the truck. They took it to Indy. He took his car. and then he went out on the racetrack

and he made his first run on the racetrack and came in they put him in the other car and he ran nine-tenths of a second faster in the other car and he got out and he asked him he said well what's different about this car and they told him the springs in and he said you load that thing in the trailer

right now I am not driving it again wouldn't drive it yeah because it didn't you know I mean him and Rusty and all those guys they all had this you know had to have a little sway bars 1,100 pound spring in the right front. And then coming off the corner with the left front way up in there. Loaded it up.

Never drove it. And wouldn't drive that car. He would not drive car 51. And car 51 is the car that we raced at Atlanta and actually won my first cup race. Oh, wow. Yeah. That was Car 51? That was Car 51.

The one with the... Yep. That's it. That's crazy. And it was just the car that I was comfortable in because Atlanta was supposed to be, they had given us two cars. to take out of the fleet because Atlanta was going to be

my first cup race. That was the originally scheduled first cup race in 2001. We had signed America Online as a sponsor and that was going to be the first of my seven races that I ran that year. Wow. I did not never heard that. You were going to be running into the cup race anyways. Yeah. So I was supposed to be in the number 30

AOL car. Oh shit. At Atlanta. Wow. Yeah. So Wow. Yeah. All that all that stuff is strange how it all works. We were texting just a little bit before a couple days ago and you were talking about the first time you met Dad. Yeah.

What was that experience? Yeah, so the first time I met him in just, you know, kind of walking, we just walked into his office. I didn't know. I was with Hornaday. Yeah, so Hornaday stuff was all out back. And this was before any of the stuff had happened with the Xfinity car. I guess it would have been 98, 99.

Hornet's. Yeah, I guess it would have been 9. car and all that no it was when when hornaday had the truck and everything out of the chicken farm chicken coop whatever they call yeah yeah yeah and so everything everything was out back and and so um hornaday and i had given our giving a whirl at golf and we sucked at golf and he's like you know what we should do we should go shoot skeet i'm like okay that's a great idea i don't have a gun never had a gun in my life well we're going to go get a gun we're going to go see dale he's got he's got a whole room full of guns I said, okay.

So we get in the truck and drive over to the office and walk upstairs. And we walk into his office, his door is open, walk in. He's got all his crap all over his desk and he's got his glasses on looking down. He looks up, what do you two idiots want? We sit down. And Hornaday is like, well, we want to go shoot Skeet. He's like, why would you want to do that? Shouldn't you be working on your race cars?

And so he says, well, if you're going to shoot you two, you two, going to go shoot skeet i don't want you two idiots shooting your feet off so he he called danny you remember dandy from that used to shoot for remington yeah yeah yeah so he called danny he said hey can you come get these two idiots and teach him how to shoot these guns and he sent hornaday out back to get the truck and he said kevin you come with me we walked downstairs and the shop hadn't been built very long he's like this is what we have over here and this is what we have over here and we walk outside and we go upstairs and nothing's happening slow he's talking a million miles an hour because he knows everything that he's got and he wants to show you what he's got and explain it all to you as you're walking by it 400 miles an

hour. So we walk out back and we go up to where all the guns and knives are. Deer-head shot. Yeah. And he goes up there and he's sign this, sign this paper and throws me a shotgun. He made you sign a waiver, a release? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you had to sign a release with a number of the gun on it so they knew who had it. Wow. He had a lot of guns. Oh, I mean, they had the Remington sponsorship. So, I mean, there was, there was, I can't remember the name of the knife company. You remember all those knives that he had in all those cases? Frost cutlery. Oh, my God, I've got piles of those things. Yeah. And he had cases and cases and cases in that room. But anyway, that's, that's where we got our first gun. And, you know, that was, that was really the first time that I had

met him face to face in that setting. And then the next time I saw him, it was. And then the next time I saw him, was in Michigan. This was the second time they had just announced the AC Delco sponsorship in Michigan. Richard's leading me around, and he walks up in the trailer. He said, let's go talk to Dale before he goes out to practice. We walk up in the trailer. And it's the most awkward setting that you could ever imagine, right? You're walking up to meet Dale Earnhardt, and I'm nervous walking up there to not meet him,

but say hi to him for the second time in my life. We walk up in the lounge. Dude's sitting in his underwear with a pair of Simpson gloves on. What a hell? He's sitting in his underwear with a pair of Simpson gloves on. Richard's like, Dale, Kevin, he stands up. How you doing? Breaking in my gloves.

Breaking in my gloves. He had a pair of Simpson gloves on sitting in his underwear, breaking his gloves in before he went out and practiced. Because you remember how thick those things were at that particular point. Is there an advantage of doing that in your underwear, though? I have no idea. I'm sure he was just in between closed the race suit. So it was, so yeah.

That is even more awkward. That's more awkward. So the first two are definitely awkward. I mean, at what point did it become, you know, did you guys ever develop a normal relationship where there weren't awkward meetings? Well, not really because he was never really around, right? You know, so he didn't go to the test and wasn't really in the shop. I mean, I saw him. Last time I saw him was at the Christmas party in 2000.

and so that would you know that was really the only the only normal setting everything else were those awkward interactions at the racetrack he was either mad or that we've gone and tested his car or you know at the shop or or anything like that so so i've always wanted to ask you about when they put you in the car in 2001 you know you you go out and you win the race and you're living your dream you're like... Not really. Well, yeah.

And if you just take the win, you know, and you're in the Cup series, you won a race. Like you're living your dream, but you're not. Yeah. Because there's all this other stuff going on. And I want to know how that affected you personally. And how do you... How do you kind of feel about it today?

And absolutely be completely honest. Because we've been absolutely honest about all that in our own lives and how that went, but you know, for better or worse, but so it absolutely wasn't the way you wanted it to go as far as you're going to run

those seven races in the 30 car, but you were asked to do this other thing, right? Yeah. And it turned out to be, you turned out to be the perfect guy to do it. You know, you went out there and you fit right into the organization. You were good. You were successful. I guess you had to kind of shelve your

your experience, your own personal experience. That path was shelved. Yeah. And look, this is probably the only place that I would ever talk about this because you're probably the only one that can relate to this. And for me, it was strictly, my path was, I'd always beat my own path. I always wanted to do things my own way. I always wanted to be around the people that I wanted to be around.

And the people that I wanted to be around were Todd and all the people that were on that bush car. And so, you know, everything happened in 2001. And I get a call on Wednesday night after the accident. And Richard says, hey, I need you to come to the office. And I looked over at Delano. I said, well, I know what's coming here. What do you think I should do?

She's like, what do you think you should do? I said, why, I'm going to have to drive the car. And she said, is that really what you want to do? I said, not really. I said, I can't think of anything else that I would want to do less. Yeah. and and you know so but I have to do it because if I don't do it we're going to have a major problem at the at the company at RCR so I go to the office I go to Richard's office and it's Richard behind his desk Kevin Hamlin and Bobby Hutchins

Kevin's got a bottle of Jack Daniels Bobby's sitting at the Bobby's sitting at the conference table and Richard sitting behind the desk looks like he's not slept in probably hadn't slept in three or four days he said Kevin we want you to drive the car. You've done all the testing. You know all the people. He's like, we totally understand if you don't want to drive it. We'll get Rick Mass to drive it. We've already talked to Rick. He can go right out and we can figure out something else.

I said, I'll do whatever it takes, you know, for RCR and the company until everybody gets back on their feet. And that was really the only conversation that happened. He said, well, we're going to do the exact opposite on all the cars. Everything that's black is going to be white. Everything that's white is going to be black. He's like, we're going to take the first available number, which is 29, and we'll go race until we figure this all out. So we go to Rockingham, and we get to the racetrack. And I always tell people, I'm like, I didn't want to be in this position.

I knew it was the right position to be in, but there wasn't anything about the position that was fun. There was not anything there that was fun. And, you know, you go to the first press conference, and I always tell people, the first press conference that I ever did for my cup career was the biggest press conference that I'll ever do in my life. Did you go into that tent at Rockingham? I mean, you've probably done big stuff like that.

I remember, that was a weird deal. That was, and it was just a... It was right outside the track. It was right outside the track in turn four. Yeah. And so they had this huge tent set up. And, I mean, as many people as you want to... say we're in there, we're probably in there.

And it's just like the political, big press conference that they have with all the cameras in the back. And, you know, it's, it was, it was intimidating. Richard made me mispractice. We didn't practice. We didn't practice the Bush car that day so that we could go, go do the, go do the press conference. So, so right, right from the, right from the beginning, it was all backwards, right?

It's so weird that, you know, when I think about that whole thing, I think, I think, you know, for some reason in my mind, and I think this is probably habit for everybody, is your first race in the cars, Atlanta. I didn't, I don't even think about you and your experience at Rockingham. I remember my experience and being around Steve Park and Michael, and I see the pictures and stuff on the internet every once while, but I never have, till just now, thought about what Rockingham must have been like for you. Yeah.

That must have been sucky. Yeah, and you know, you came by the trailer and he said, just want you to know that my families, you know, we're glad that you're in the car. You know, we're behind you. And Dale Jarrett was the other guy that came behind by the trailer on that particular day. No surprise. And, you know, I think that...

That's the Dale Jarrett thing. 2001 was the only thing that saved us from all the chaos was the fact that we decided to race both cars. 30. No, no, no, my Xfinity car. So, and at that point you could still go test, right? So we went to every cup test, we went to every, every Xfinity test, we did every Xfinity race, we did every cup race.

So it kept me, it kept me kind of secluded to my situation in driving, and I got out of a ton of stuff. And I didn't have to see as much of the chaos as I saw in 2002. I was really oblivious to a lot of the things that the magnitude of the situation. And I think when you look at Rockingham, it just came at a really weird time because the next week, Delane and I were getting married in Las Vegas. Oh, my goodness. There's a lot going on there. Yeah.

And then everything happened in Daytona. So your personal life is changing. Your career path took just a complete right turn, you know, into a situation that had, you know, way more eyeballs on it than anything that you could have ever imagined. And now you're just, you're under this, under this spotlight. It's not like I didn't like any of those guys that were on the team, but they just weren't my guys, right? Sure. We didn't have anything in common.

They were all your dad's age. I was 25. They were all late 40s, early 50s. And we didn't, we just, we didn't have anything in common. So you were going to the racetrack to do what you had to do. And Todd did a barrier, did a great job of just kind of being that middle guy, of trying to, trying to be in the middle of everything that went on to try to keep the peace of the whole situation

because the way they communicated and the way that they did things was just not like the way that we did things on the Xfinity cars. So we do the press conference at Rockingham. The race goes fine. I think Steve won on that particular day. And just really awkward at that particular point.

And we load everybody up. We go to Las Vegas, which was actually worked out to be really good timing for our team to kind of get our minds off of everything. We get married Wednesday night. We go to the racetrack,

and Richard actually flew out there. We got on the wrong helicopter after the race. Richard had a helicopter take us because the race got rained out. We raced on Monday. So we were already a day late to the wedding to go to Las Vegas. We get on the wrong helicopter,

go to the wrong airport, come back to the racetrack, get on the right helicopter. So my soon-to-be wife is already freaking out at this particular point, because everything that we've got is just unraveled, is unraveled and different than what it was supposed to be two weeks ago. So anyway, we fly to the airport and go to Las Vegas,

and we fly home with Richard, and he said we got our first top ten in Las Vegas. We got married, and everything worked out. And so we fly home on a plane, and Richard's got this $15,000 bottle of wine. That's the year that he's born. We just got our first top ten, and he's finally starting to come around

and start to speak and, you know, wrap his arms around it. And we finally had a good moment, right? So we get on a plane and he's like, you win a race. We'll drink this bottle of wine. I'd never drink a bottle of wine in my life. So I'm like, if I'm going to drink a bottle of wine, I'd love to drink your $15,000 bottle of wine. So we go out the next week and, you know, we go to Atlanta and win a race, right?

And, you know, that was supposed to be my first race. and it winds up being your first win. And, you know, you go back, and I really don't, I go back and watch those videos, and you're probably, you know, somewhat of, have some of these same things. Like, I don't remember anything about that day. Yeah.

I remember nothing. I remember Rockingham, but Atlanta, I just, I don't remember much about anything that went on. It was so surreal because of, you know, first you won the race, but, you know, when I stopped on the front straightaway and pulled that window on that day, and did the burnout and turned around to the crowd.

And everybody in the crowd's got three fingers holding up. And they are, I mean, screaming as loud as any crowd that I'd ever heard. And I'll never forget it because with like two or three laps to go, we were winning. And the one thing, one of the things that I do remember from that day were the people hanging on the backstretched fence. The people had climbed up on the fence.

And the place was just, it was turned upside down. And to not remember that just kind of tells you, just how weird it all was. Because you had to go out and do these things because it's right for the company and you're having to race and lost your dad. I mean, there's just so many things that the sport didn't really know what to do.

Kind of lost its, it definitely lost its leader. And everybody, it was just weird and awkward. You mentioned 2002 being a very, being harder. Yeah. How? Well, just because we'd been so secluded from the reality of the situation, right? Yes, because when O-1, when O-1 ended, for me,

that was like the end of all that chaos, right? For me too. But the chaos for me was a little bit guarded because I ran 33, 32-33 Xfinity races and all the testing. Like, I hadn't, you were probably just running the cup car, right? And you were dealing with all the things during the week. I didn't deal with anything.

I went to the racetrack and I raced and a lot of those weekends I went from one racetrack to another racetrack in a different state. And, you know, we were so busy that, you know, the only things that changed, there were people in my yard when I came home. So we bought a guard dog because of the fact that, you know, there were so many race fans and people around that you just didn't have before. But the rest of it, like it was just like it was with my Xfinity stuff without my guys. I just went to the racetrack. I tested. I came home. So what was talking about O2?

O2, it all had finally come apart. We had to start making decisions, right? At the end of O1 of, you know, with this sponsor and that sponsor and this endorsement and that endorsement because they were all there. I mean, your dad had. I mean, there were so many things that were there. I was like, well, we were just going to transfer all this stuff in. And I'm like, no, I don't like that one.

And then the next thing you know we had a war because, well, it was Dale did this. Dale did that and this was what Dale did and I'm like, well, I'm not doing it like Dale. I'm not doing this like Dale and because it was just not what I had done, right? And so then you start to get defensive about every decision that you make. And then the people stuff started to show up, you know, as far as crew chief and team. And so as we went through O2, the team started to change. We started changing crew chiefs. And then you had all this turmoil off the racetrack because of the decisions that you had to make because

everybody wanted to be like Dale did it and I was like I don't want it to be like Dale did it and then you had to start making those real life decisions the cars didn't run good every all that all that momentum and everything that you lived off of in 2001 that adrenaline and everything that went with that now you had a whole winter and you had all the reality of the situation the car was back to black and silver in a much different way you know I sat in the in the conference room at GM and, you know, the marketing guy at the time was like, well, why should you be driving our car?

You really don't fit our mold. So, you know, I instantly had all this stuff that I just put my guard up against and, you know, probably could have handled differently if you look back at it. But it was just not, nothing about it was, was the way that any of it had gone to that point. And I just, you know, put your guard up and probably handled it, you know, defensively and made a lot of enemies within the company from the guys that had been there for a long time. But I wanted my guys to race with. And eventually that's where it led in 2003. So 2003 things started getting better?

Yeah. 03, O3, you know, Todd was crew chief. And we'd kind of cycled through all that turmoil. And we had a pretty good year. And then 04 and 05 were bad. 06 was really good. and that was another contract year. I'll never forget it.

We were at Richmond and Richard was announcing the GM Goodrich sponsorship and the driver contract extension, and I hadn't signed it. And he came and he said, well, if you show up, you'll be the driver with a signed contract. If you don't show up, we'll announce a sponsor and that we're looking for a driver. And that was the last negotiating piece of that puzzle. Yeah, Richard's a good negotiator. Yeah. And, you know, it wasn't, you know, a lot of that, a lot of the animosity of a lot of the

situations that we had at RCR, you know, from all stem from 2001 when all that stuff switched and just the generational gap. Yeah. And, you know, Richard and I, Richard, Richard and I have a great relationship now, but there was always always a little bit of a battle just because of that, you know, that generational gap and the way that things were run and the way that things changed. And, you know, you had these guys that would bark at Richard and say, you know, he's a pain in the ass, which I was, still him. And, you know, and then you had these guys that say, you need to do this.

And so Richard's kind of the middle guy, right? He's trying to say, okay, what is it? Is it pain in the ass? Is he worth keeping? So it was always a balancing act because you had two different sides of the fence. You know, the guys that we came up with and the guys that had been there for a long time, that Richard started the company with. So, but in the end, you know, I think after, after we got through, after we got through

2006 and the, and the GM Goodrent stuff kind of went away and we brought Shell in, we brought Rhesus up, you know, and all the sponsors and things that kind of went on in the car where a lot, it felt like it started to feel more like my car and my situation. It took that long. It took that long. It really did. You know, because it's a lot. like we talked when we came in here. I mean, there's just, there's a legacy that your family has, right?

And there's just this, there's this, this hardcore group of fans and people in the industry that, you know, kind of rode with that situation all the way up through. And, you know, when you, when you start to, you know, shake the tree and, you know, things are, things are not the same way for those people, they become not happy with, with the situation because of the fact that, you know, It was a transition and different person driving the car and leading the situation. It's a tough scenario for everybody involved in it. I mean, you got a bunch of guys that are grieving. Richard lost his best friend.

It's crazy. Did you have anybody helping you from a bit? Because you're having to make decisions now. This is so interesting because, you know, we were joking about how in 2002 you're jumping off the car going at Biffle. and all this stuff. And I have no idea all the stuff, the internal turmoil that's going on, and it makes perfect sense. Who did you have, you had Delana, but I have to assume that that's more on the personal side. Who did you have to help you navigate other than yourself? You said you started becoming, you know, was he an asshole? Was he hard to work with all this stuff? But who else

did you have other than yourself? Yeah, so Todd Barrier was a key player in that, in that whole role, because he'd been at RCR for a long time, came up with the truck team, worked in the fab shop, knew the inner workings of everything that was going on. And, you know, in the end, he was kind of the mediator, you know, and the person that you could, I spent a lot of time with Todd, and we spent a lot of time together through the year.

So Todd was a key player, but even with sponsorship stuff, like this is an interesting, it's almost like a dilemma here. You've got GM Goodrich. You've got everybody that had Dale's way. And Dale had that sort of authority, I'm assuming, is that it was going to be his way or you're gone. And now they're trying to enforce his ways on you. Who do you have to say, no, Kevin is this?

Kevin's not going to do that. Yeah. Well, Fred, who still works for me today, Fred Lexi, he's always been the one that kind of managed everything. from the beginning and helped me with my first contract. He handled everything for Kenny Irwin. Okay. And so, you know, Fred and I and Delana always navigated, you know, the contract stuff and the inner workings and, you know, every time Richard wanted to throw me out, you know,

Fred had to go in and sit with me or, you know, with Richard. But he's really the one that was there from the very beginning. So, you know, as far as the company goes, it would have been Todd on the day-to-day stuff. It's always been Fred and Delaney and myself, you know, at that particular time. And then Josh was Mr. Oreo in 2000. That's right. In 2001 in Victory Lane. And he came into the picture.

He was the PR rep for Reese's. So, you know, 2005 right around there is when Josh kind of came into the mix. But, you know, Fred has been, he's been that backbone. that handled all the contracts and all the situations. Even in 2002. Oh, yeah. All the way back. I did not know that y'all went that far back.

Yeah, he started, I guess that would have been the end of 98, was when we had our first dealings together. So I want to get you back on the show at some point to go through a lot of the Cups stuff, but before we let you go, I wanted to talk to you about Keelan. So, Keelan's been racing a lot, a lot of different stuff. one of the things I wonder is when did he share with you I guess that he wanted to drive? Yeah, so COVID really changed our life, right? It changed what our house looks like as far as how it functions.

It changed, you know, they both go to school at home now, have a teacher at home, and they do everything at home. But when COVID started, the whole eye racing thing started, and I'd never really done that before. and he was a part of it. Like when I was in there practicing, he had his rig that he'd sit in there and practice on. And one day, we had a go-kart, but we had just not ridden it for several months. And he looked at me.

One day he's like, Dad, I'm tired of ir racing. Let's go ride my go-kart. This was at the beginning of COVID. I said, okay. So we went and started riding this go-cart, and I started riding mine, and he asked if he could race. And so, you know, I guess it would have been End of May of 2020.

We ran our first club race at GoPro. And from that point on, it's kind of progressed into what it is today. We race there in Vegas right now, racing go-karts this weekend. It's kind of evolved into racing all the national races. And he's probably, I think he's raced 65 or 70 times this year. That's a lot. It is a lot. How's he dealing with it?

I mean, that's just, it's what we do, right? It's the only thing, I know he likes it because of the fact it's the only thing I can get him to do, the only thing I can get him to go practice. Like when we play baseball and we played football and we played soccer or whatever the sport was, you can't get him to go practice without griping about it. What was the, whose responsibility was the direction of his career? And I know this is, I'm just curious. So I know he's just starting.

He's nine years old. Yeah. Why these national races, why road course carts over the other options or anything? You know, everybody's at Millbridge every Wednesday night running this dirt stuff. Yeah. Like who's directing this sort of introduction to racing for him? Yeah, I'd say a lot of that is me. And then, you know, Mom obviously has a big say in everything that we do.

I'd do more, but Mom has to put the brakes on everything. ambition yeah so my look I started racing carts so for for me I kind of feel like that that was a good foundation just because of what it teaches you you know we've got a couple kids that that we help on a k-h-i management side of things with with Brent Cruz and Connor Zillich okay and the level of racing ability that they have Conner's 15 Brent is 13 and the level of racing knowledge and ability that that they have at their age from the carding is at a high level is just it's second to none. I mean, it's just not something that both of those kids have been to Europe. Both of those kids, Brent's raced midgets this year, and he's raced his micro, he's

raced at Millbridge into box stock stuff. He's done stuff on asphalt. Connors, he won the MX5 scholarship from Mazda and going to race that next year. So seeing the ability that these kids have at that high level really opened my eyes to, man, there's no reason to not just expose Keelan to just anything that you can get him in. He went and drove a micro at Millbridge the other night. We've been driving the Legends car. We've been to Hickory.

We've been to Anderson. We've been to the quarter mile. And the kids, they just have a lot of ability and a lot of access to the things that we didn't have access to. Because when we raced, you know, until you were 16, you didn't even. and think about getting into a car. Right. If those kids aren't in a car at 12, you're behind. Yeah.

Yeah. And you're never going to catch up. And I used to tell Danica Patrick this all the time. She's like, well, what do I need to do? I said, I'm always going to have 20 years of experience on you. You're never going to catch up until I quit. It's just not possible because you just, you know, the amount of times that they can race and the amount of times that you can put them

and that they get themselves into situations of racing situations, whether it's on the outside, on the inside, blocking, whatever that scenario is, the more you can do it, the better off you're going to be. So I just feel like at his age, you know, the go-carts are a good avenue to go down. You know, I think that the dirt stuff is, I like the dirt stuff. He hated it. He did not like the box stock at all. He did not like the box stock at all because, you know, it was wide open. They all just smashed into each other on the restarts. And he didn't like the fact that everybody ran into each other on the restarts. because it didn't make sense to him.

Because what he watches on Sunday, nobody runs into each other on the restart. And he's like, I just don't understand why we all have to crash into each other on the restart. And I'm like, I get it. I don't really like dirt racing either. So let's just go do something else.

And then, you know, he wanted to go drive the micro the other night. And that was all him. I'm like, buddy, I have no interest in going back to Millbridge and racing on the dirt. We had a terrible experience. It wasn't any fun. If you want to do it,

you go talk to Matt, who's Brent's stepfather. I said, you go talk to Matt, and you set it all. up and I'll support you. And we were sitting at the dirt track, driving to micro. But, you know, I think with COVID, we spend a lot more time at home. They're homeschooled now.

And he wanted to race. And it all just kind of evolved into this natural evolution of being able to race more because the way that we could do school, you could plan it around, you could plan it around the race schedule and still get the proper schooling and do the things that you need to do because that's still the number one focus is school so so yeah and and you know i think that has a lot to do with with still wanting to be in the car too for for me because going to yeah going to those go-kart tracks and and remembering why you love to race it really it really shows up when you go see the kids and their dads and and remembering why you like to race it's not you get so caught up in i got to go

do this interview or I got to go do this appearance or whatever it is you get so caught up in that and the grind is what the grind is what wears it takes it all out of you in my opinion it's really never the competitive side like if you could just go race and knew you were going to be competitive every week you know you'd probably you'd probably say yeah that that sounds like fun if it didn't have to do any appearances and it didn't have to do any interviews yeah you'd do it to your 55 like bobby all that's right exactly exactly but for me watching him race and watching all these kids race really kind of lit that fire in me to say that's why I like to race I remember why I like to race that's fun it's okay to be biased because

you're his dad but does he have it does he have that it factor do you think what do you see in out of Keeling he does good he does things that I'm like man where'd you learn that and you know it's the way that they're taught to race is exactly how the young kids race now right like it's never a position, always block. They teach them how to block from the first day that they get on the racetrack. So they learn how to block. I never learned how to block. A blocking was always just like, if that guy blocks you, you wreck him.

And if that guy doesn't race right, that's his fault that he got run into, not mine. And that's part of going back to the beginning of the show. That's part of the frustration with, you know, the whole chase situation. It's like, hey, man, you know, you put yourself, you put us in this situation. and I just didn't happen to lift today, and that's why we're where we are. And I made reference to, it's like talking to my nine-year-old because it's the same conversation. But that's how they're taught to race.

That's just the way that racing is today. They're taught to be a complete, it's all offense, and it's all for you and not for anybody else. Don't care about how you race somebody. Just go do this right now. And that's, it's cutthroat. That's interesting. Yeah.

So how has this experience with Keelan? First off, how much of you wants to be where he's at racing every day? Or are you kind of cool with him on his on? I'm cool with the break because, you know, for me, I have that fractured relationship with my dad, right? Still today, it's not perfect. And, you know, when I look at racing, I love racing. I love what it's done for my family. and one of the other things that's made me realize is how much racing can become a family legacy

and is a family sport. And so experiencing that, you know, it gives you a different perspective on that. But like today, his mom and he went to Las Vegas to race and they're going to be there by themselves for, you know, three days. And having he, when he goes to the racetrack, he feels like he has a space because I'm on his ass all the time, right? You know, if he doesn't do something right, I pull, everything's got data. So I can see all the throttle traces, all the brake traces, all the steering traces. I've got video.

I mean, and you can call him out for every single thing that he does wrong. And we overload him with information, right? So it's just, that's just the way that it is. The kids have to learn how to use all that data and they have to be accountable for the things that they do wrong. And in my opinion, that's where the parents go wrong. They don't hold their kids accountable. It's like, okay, you'll do better next time. Mm-mm.

Not today. Today, you screwed this up, you screwed this up, you screwed this up. So, you know, that becomes pretty tense all the time from dad. And, you know, so having those breaks for me and being able to go to the racetrack and get my mind off of what he's doing and what's going on at home and being able to go to the racetrack and be involved with my guys and in the car and focused on something else is good for both of us. Is there any correlation between you extending your contract as a driver and the sort of the reset of the network deal with NASCAR is broadcasting still sort of something in your future that if it's there, it's there, something you think you could see yourself doing?

I think so. And that was 100% a part of the conversation because obviously the broadcast deals are up in 24. You know, we got 22 and 23. And, you know, it adds another layer of the conversation because of the fact that, you know, you're so relevant in the, in the new car of being on the racetrack. You're a part of the progression of where the racetracks are going, where we're racing, what we're doing, short tracks, road courses, whatever it is. And, you know, I think it's, you know, quitting in 21 would have put you in this weird window for that.

And, you know, there were so many other things that were that were intriguing from the driving standpoint that it just, you know, it timed out better to talk about being done in 23. But it could be, could not be the end. You know, it's just, you know, that's the next endpoint that we have right now. And, you know, I think the way that we came up with two more years was really by nothing that we had planned. It just all these things happened and just said, well, why, you know, why would you not want to do that? And I think those are easy decisions when you just let him play out. Does Rodney play a big role in that as well as far as how much further he wants to go? Because I think that you and him have a pretty inseparable relationship.

Yeah, I think if he would have said I was done at the end of 21, I would have probably just been done too. You know, I just learning the ends and outs of the people. The people are, as in any business, are the most important thing that you have. And, you know, for me, I worked my whole career to be in a position to where you, where you're like, okay, I believe in all the people. I don't need to worry about those guys showing up and not giving 100% today or not knowing what's going on. They gave everything they had to get to this point. They put in all the effort, all the time, everything that you want out of all the people is there. And, you know, so to not have that and have to learn something new for me would be.

it'd be tough to invest in the time that it takes to get to the relationship that we've got after, you know, going on our eighth year. So, you know, that would be tough. And it's just, you know, having that trust in each other in this sport is, you know, at that level of trust is hard to find. When Keelan starts moving up into, you know, full-size type cars, are you going to be lowered to be a bigger player in that? like with more hands-on? Is that going to be difficult, more difficult for you, I think? Yeah, I think Keelan's interest in racing has definitely made a difference in what you would lay out as the direction for the management company. Just because of the exact same situation, right?

So I've had Fred since, you know, he's been a part of everything that I've done since 98. Josh has been there since 0405, you know, in some way, shape, or form. You know, Cindy in the office has worked for me since 90s. So you've got this group of people that you trust and know and knows the sport. And so, you know, we would be, if he does wind up going down this road, it would be way easier to just have all the people that he knows, that I know. And, you know, I think that the car, not working on the cars for 20 years, I think my time in working on the cars is over.

Because it's just, it's such an engineering equation now. and, you know, even I watched Josh's car the other day, and I watched that thing go around the racetrack. I mean, it's just, it's perfect, right? And even at the late model level, it's still an engineering science project. And, you know, in order to do that, you just have to have the right people, you know,

and a lot of the relationships that we have through the management company, through the sponsors, have been a part of our career. Hunt Brothers, you know, they love being a part of Keelan's evolution. And so you've got this whole infrastructure, built to do it. But the hands-on part, like I could see maybe, you know, having a, I did just order a late model

stock car just for fun. So, all right, all right. So that's the level. Just to put it in the shop. That's the level that I'm talking about. Yeah. So when, I mean, he's nine. You can literally have him in that thing.

Next year. Next year. 23. Right. I think it would be the same evolution. Yeah, but who helps him? at that point because he, you know, he's not running a cart for these guys that know carts, you know, he's going to need a stock car guy, right? Who's your guy? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,

it'll merge, right? Yeah, you know, I think, yeah, it's just going to happen. It's going to make sense. It'll just make sense, right? And, you know, I think there's just a, there's a lot of people that are, you know, that have been around the sport for a long time and you know enough people to find a situation. What body's on that car? I don't know. I hadn't even got it yet. You do know. You know, I have late ball of stock car. You do? Yeah. I know.

Yours are fast. Yeah. They are fast. Yeah. What, do you want to go ahead and hire Keelan? Get him on a contract? Well, look, I bought the late-model stock car. As good as he is, was sponsored, we never have to worry about that.

He's the best at it. Right. I think the theory in the whole thing in my head, and mom may not agree, but I think as you look at it, the Legends car is used to introduce him to a lot of the late-model stock tracks that they go to, right? So you go to Hickory or you go to Ace or you go to Anderson or whatever racetrack it is in this area, the Legends car has already raced on it. And getting that oval piece in the next couple years for him is really important in my mind for a successful career.

And then you take the go card and you take it to all the national races. And at some point, he needs to venture to Italy and run some of those races in Europe just to be, be comfortable being uncomfortable, right? So nobody speaks the same language. It's the highest level of racing. It's something that I've never done. Delana enjoys that part of the country and she's never been there.

So it's a great excuse to go over there and race. But in the end, it's just about that experience of being comfortable, being uncomfortable. And being able to perform in those types of situations. So, you know, I think the go-card is useful for that. I think the Legends car is useful to introduce him to Oval Track racing because it's hard to drive.

It's got a lot of power. And it's a lot of the racetracks that the late model stock car is on. I don't think he'll be ready to race that until maybe the middle of next year. And I think that in 23, I think you take that late model stock car and you just let him practice it for a year

and just get used to going to different racetracks. And, you know, the deal. Getting in and out of the pits sometimes is, you know, for me, you're like, oh, man, I'm nervous. I'm more nervous about going to the racetrack because I don't know how to get in and out of the pits or, you know, embarrass my kids. Having to run an extra lap of practice and having to ask somebody on the radio how to get back into the pits or where my hauler is and just learning how to navigate all those things is important. But in my mind, I mean, you look at a kid like, you look at a kid like Brick Cruz. And I just, I watch Ty Gibbs this year. I don't understand why they just don't put him in a cup car this year. Like what's the point of him running in any more Xfinity cars? And I look at that and I'm like, well, why can't they all be ready by 19?

I don't know. I mean, it's going to be so different. Like, how are, you know, what is the progression going to be as we go forward? It's going to be different. I don't know how. I don't know how to explain that or what that looks like. But the progression could be different. Like, what an Xfinity car is today?

Oh, it's changing. Yeah. Is that going to be okay for a cup car? Is it going to be a truck? Are they, is NASCAR going to change the series? Are they going to add more power to the cup car? what are we trying to develop them for? But the thing that I can tell you is

you better be a good road racer and you better be a good short track racer. You better have it all. Yeah. How do you avoid, you've sort of hit on all this. How do you avoid that seemingly common trend that you see when racers reach the age

of making decisions for themselves where they have those fractured relationships with their fathers? I'm not going to start calling out names in the Cup series right now, but I'm saying that there's enough examples where finally there's parents that seem to not know where it's time to let them be their own person and their own racer, and it has some repercussions.

How do you avoid that? I think you have to pay a lot of attention to the way the Elliot's did it, right? Interesting. You know, I mean, I think Bill, I think they've done a good job and, you know, okay, I can take you here, and then they kind of handed him off, right? here. And that was kind of, you know, the breaking point of saying, okay,

here you go. Now, go do it and we're still going to be here to support you. But I think they've done a really good job in trying to navigate all that. And I think you know, I think that the way that the way that Chase kind of handles all that is

a good example for, you know, a lot of the younger families. It's interesting. Younger families and there's this different, right? Right? Yeah, there's just differences. But it's at a really, really high level from, you know, the Elliott family legacy in the sport. And so there's just a lot of things that come with that that they've navigated really well. And I think racing in general is different today.

You know, I think, you know, I think the dads are, you know, I think the dads are more relevant in the kids' lives. I think, you know, I think when your dad raced and, you know, a lot of those guys from, that generation, Rusty, they were just gone, right? They just, they were just gone because, you know, you didn't, you flew on airplanes, but it wasn't like it is today. And then you had to be at the racetrack for five days and four days at a time to practice. And there was no rules on testing. And it was just a, it was a, it was a different lifestyle and a different era than what it is today. So I think, you know, that's, that's one thing that that we try to do with, we try to help the young racers, much like you do because there's so many

vultures out there. Isn't that the truth? Oh my gosh. You know, though, there's one regret I have that Keelan doesn't do Milbridge every week with, because I could just see you, Kyle Clint, Kyle Bush, Kyle Lars, the competitiveness between you guys as fathers watching your son's race would far exceed anything we see on a racetrack on Sundays, in my opinion.

Yeah, and, you know, it's you know, the Milbridge thing, he just, I didn't enjoy it. He didn't enjoy it. And it's a great place to race because really those kids, anybody in any division that leaves that racetrack, they can be competitive anywhere in the country and likely win races anywhere in the country. So, you know, we're just, we're fortunate.

And he's got that little bit of bug to go do the dirt racing stuff. And it's just, it's never been something. I'm not a help because it's never been something that I've been particularly interested in. Yeah. But I think in today's world, you have to be able to do it. Yeah. You have to be able to race on anything. Yeah.

For him, for the next, for the guy that wants to reach the top level, he's got to be full package. Instead of just a stock cart oval guy, he's got to, he's got to be able to, you know, race carts all over the, all over the globe and run dirt, have dirt experience. Well, I mean, look at Chase, right? Like, he's terrible in that midget. Yeah. But he's willing to go do it. He's willing to go get his butt kicked. Yeah.

Willing to go get his butt kicked in it with the microscope on. order to learn how to do it. Does Keelan lose well? You know, because one of the things I love to tell people about you is that, I mean, if you didn't finish first in a race for junior motorsports, I mean, if you finished second, you were not okay. You were not okay. Why?

You were hard to deal with. Yeah. And so, does Keelan have that? You know, there are some days I see it, and in some days you're like, are you mad? Not really. This is good. One day he came in from qualifying, he qualified fourth. And I'm like, man, that wasn't very good.

He's like, ah, it doesn't matter. It's just qualifying. I said, oh, really? So you're saying qualifying doesn't matter? It's just qualifying, dad. I said, okay. So I went to the race director, and I said, hey, we're going to start in a back for every race today. So just take our qualifying time off the sheet.

He got to the grid and he had to start last. Damn. Here you go, buddy. You said qualifying doesn't matter. so race from last today in every heat. Wow. It's probably better that you don't go to the racetrack. I know.

Does he do better when you're not there? There are sometimes. But we have a, you know, I would, I mean, I spend a ton of time with him, right? So we travel together and, you know, we talk all the time. Hey, you know, there's going to be some tense moments at the racetracks. But just remember, every moment I love you in every situation that we go through. I'm here with you. you for you and I'm not going to send you down a road that I don't think is better for you.

You may disagree. That's right. But just remember, I love you in every moment. And I remind him of that all the time because, you know, I want it to be, I want him to be and have, you know, have success. But it's a balance, man. It's tough. But you got to hold him accountable. I love what you did.

I love that. I love pulling his qualifying time and starting to move back. That's a great move. I think you win dad of the year for that. Qualifying does matter. It absolutely matters. I mean, watching F1 race, you don't qualify in a front row, you don't win. You got to learn.

I bet he got the lesson, too. Well, we don't, we don't, I don't know that it really made a difference, but I think. Oh, did he win? On that particular day, he did win because I let him have his starting spot for the main after the first two heats. He learned his lesson. Yeah, but, you know, I think as you, as you, as you, I think he's just learned what not to say. Right. I think he still thinks the same thing as like, oh, whatever.

but he just doesn't say it anymore that's pretty cool yeah man well we got to wrap it up i know i really appreciate you giving us so much time no problem i've enjoyed it yeah i have to it it was a great conversation we got we got to talk about some things we needed to talk about but we got to talk about some good old history and some some time times and uh so where are you off to next uh let's see i got to go to the i got to go to the banquet yeah how about that huh yeah um i had to go find a suit. I mean, I don't think I've put a nice pair of clothing on in two years. So my daughter asked me, she asked me two days ago, she's like, Daddy, you're going to get dressed today? I said, what do you mean? She's like, well, you got your gym shorts on. I'm like, well, that's just what I

wear. Yeah. And so I don't really enjoy the banquet. Yeah, what about holidays, family vacation, anything going on? Yeah, we're going to go to Daytona and race go carts. Jeez. There's a big meet there every year, right? Is it January? No, it's three days. It's three days after Christmas. Yeah. Yeah, they have the big race down there in Daytona. Yeah. Lay down carts and all that. Everything. Yeah. Have you seen those things go around a racetrack? Those guys are nuts. Stupid. Stupid. 160 miles an hour or so. I mean, haul and ass. Y'all are going to race there. Yeah, so we're going to go, we go to Vegas this weekend for one of the big year-end races with the cart, and then we'll come back and run the Legends car a little bit on some practice,

and then we'll go to Homestead twice, and then we'll go to Daytona. And then we go back to Homestead after the first of the year. Homestead more racing? Homestead is they have a nice cart track down there, and the weather's warm. So everything, everything. Kind of a little vacation and racing at the same time for you. Yeah, it's just Keelan and I this year. Mom went with us to all of them last year, and she's like, you guys have fun.

We'll see when the season starts. So, yeah, we'll do that, and then we'll go on a little ski trip out to Wyoming mean before the season starts and yeah so you used to have a beach house in the same area that yeah yeah yeah and now you're out on you're not on the beach anymore now you're skiing well we just go out there now i got rid of that one too yeah it's it's it's fun to kind of move around it is you do some moving yeah yeah well we we primary stays stays put but um the second the second house stuff you it's it's it's really change it up over it got to change it up to keep it fresh and and i think that evolves with your life too right and so you know the beach the beach stuff

was fun right up until the kids, now it would probably work fine, but until the kids went to school and everybody was there on the same vacation days that you were and it's not quite as fun when it's crowded. Okay. All right. Well, man, hey, have a great off-season. Again, thanks for coming by. Anytime. People are going to love this podcast and we'll love to get you back as early as next year to get into the cup stuff and hear some more great stories. I don't want to be a stranger, so I'm excited for the invite back so i've i've enjoyed it and thanks for having me kevin harbock on the dale junior download is that it fans great this fun did we hit record oh yeah did we hit record oh stop birthday

oh dear birthday thank you thank you the song ain't over micah i know there's more to it Cole Swindale serinated him. Do I get to go to Key West? I remember how this goes. Thank you guys. I've got a cake and everything. Thank you.

Kevin was our present. We are live. Hey, everybody. It's Dale Jr. here at the Bojangles studio with my co-host, Mike Davis. This is the Ask Junior part of the show. It's good to see you, everybody, and have a bit of a live audience interact with us today. We want to thank Xfinity for all they've done for us here at the Buggingle Studio and at Dirtymo Media.

They've been a great partner for us. They've been great for the sport. They do a lot with the Xfinity series, and they put a lot into it. We need partners like that to keep this big machine moving down the street, and they do a great job. I'm a customer using their X-Fi service. It's pretty amazing. It's never let me down. And so I hope you guys will check that out and look into getting next.

and using Xfinity service yourself. So they're a proud premier partner of NASCAR, and we're thankful for them. You guys have sent your questions in. Thanks for being patient. We were trying to get this podcast out. I got under the weather a little bit, and we wanted to take the right precautions

to keep everybody safe and healthy throughout the holidays so they can be with their families, and we're all good to go. And so Leah's compiled your questions that you sent to Xfinity Racing on Twitter, and we're going to get to them right now. First question from Robert. What's your opinion on the new practice

in qualifying procedures for next season? Well, that's, you know, it's hard to have an opinion until you see it live. So I want to be, you know, patient and try not to jump to conclusions, I guess. I think we all have an idea of how we'd like this to go. We want it to be compelling. We want it to be fun and interesting. We want it to be free of gimmicks and drama and just be all about being the fastest car and going out there and setting a lap and putting yourself in the field.

also want to see guys practicing, right, so we can see how these cars react around each other. That's a big question right now as to how the next gen is going to race in a pack, right, or race around cars or behind cars in front of cars and all that. So hopefully we get to see some practice where guys are on the track together and we learn a little bit as viewers what the car is going to be doing in the race. I think it's great that we're going to have some content, some on-track activity and some things happening during the weekend, whereas we've been just showing up and running the race. I miss having practice.

I miss having qualifying. I know a lot of people can take it or leave it. Even some of my own colleagues that I work with aren't quite sure whether it's necessary or that it's needed. But practice for me builds a bit of a storyline leading into the race and gives us an idea of who might be quick, who might surprise, who might run poorly that we thought was going to run great, right? So those are storylines that are developing during practice. So it'll be good to have that happening again, whereas before just showing up as a broadcaster and dropping the green,

you really have a hard time telling you the viewer at home what to expect and who might, you know, have a great run today that we we usually wouldn't keep our eye on. So practice and qualifying is a great thing. Hopefully it's an, you know, it's interesting and, and, and, you know, it's interesting. develops some great storylines and, you know, the teams hopefully take advantage of it. Next question from Mark Rennie. What are your thoughts on the latest NASCAR news regarding Nashville Fairgrounds that came out yesterday? Yeah, so we've all been following along, at least I have, with the Nashville Fairgrounds and the progress of trying to sort of get that racetrack in the right hands

so that facility itself, the physical structure can stay modern. continue to be upgraded. The track has, you know, kind of struggled to be able to maintain, do the general maintenance that needs to be done at a place like that, a facility like that. So while it's functioned and there have been races there and they've been racing and doing well and it's still got a great, you know, community supporting it and a lot of racers still showing up and competing at the track. The track itself, the physical racetrack itself, could use a bit of a facelift. So it's it's been my interest to find a way for Marcus Smith and Bristol Motor Speedway and that group to gain some control over the future of the racetrack because I know that they will

put and invest the money needed into the track to get it to where it needs to be so it's a first-class facility. So that's really the big box that I really hope to get checked. And it just it seems like that's happening. I know nothing about what that means for NASCAR, whether that means a truck date, an Xfinity date, or a cup date. I don't know anything about the conversations and the potential of when that could happen. But I do know that in the hands of Marcus Smith and his team and Bristol Motor Speedway, that corporation, I do know that this racetrack will be in better shape physically. will get the upgrades and the improvements needed to continue. We have to remember that a few years ago, the community voted to preserve this racetrack.

It was set to be demolished as they were building the soccer stadium. They were going to just wipe it off the map and use that land to build out whatever they had planned for the soccer stadium and whatever footprint that had. So the community saved this racetrack. but more needed to be done as far as what the track, you know, physically looks like and how the track kind of maintains itself, how it makes money, and how to be able to take any kind of profit and turn that around and reinvest into the facility. So that was kind of the missing piece of the puzzle,

and now that seems to be getting shored up. And I'm telling you, man, this place is in great hands. It's here to stay, and now it's going to be in great shape going forward. Hopefully that does mean that we'll see some. some cup racing there at some point down the road. I know there's a lot of things moving around with Marcus and his team acquiring Dover Motorsports, which is Dover's racetrack, and also Nashville's Super Speedway. Those are some great racetracks. They also hold some dates that are pretty valuable. And so I don't know really how all that plays into this, but certainly it has to have some sort

of factor into the future of the fairgrounds. So we'll see what happens. I'm excited. I think It's a moment to celebrate the future of this racetrack, and I think a lot of people that race there and enjoy going there have to be extremely happy with his news. Next question from Ryan Johnson. He says, I'm currently watching through your 1998 Bush Series championship winning season on YouTube, and I just watched you win your first race at Texas.

I never realized you won with the last lot past. Do you have any favorite or notable memories from that day? Well, in the middle of that race or early in that race, got a little contact with somebody in turn three and four, I think and developed the left front tire rub and had to come down pit road and I just remember like the day was kind of

spiraling in the wrong direction. You know, we were doing okay. We had had a good second place finish at Vegas and I think we'd ran pretty good at Bristol run second to Sadler I think. So I mean I was starting to finish races and

get a decent result. That was a that day was not going in the right direction and somehow or another you know, we got the track position back. I don't know if we drove back through the field. I can't really remember exactly how we acquired all that track position. And then late in the race, I think we had better tires than Nemechek. And, you know, we weren't, I don't know if we were quite as good as Sadler.

He gained, as you're watching that last lap, he gained so much through turn three and four. I was pretty conservative with my car through that corner. But he was probably just a bit better than we were, but didn't have him more laps. to try to get to us. So it had been interesting, I think, if we'd had a couple more laps with Elliot closing in. But it was just emotional, man. I remember I still have that trophy. Obviously, you know, we win that first Xfinity race.

The way I looked at my career was I just need to win one. If I can just win one, I think that they'll hang on to me, right? That'll put belief in everybody that needs to, everybody that matters. that maybe I can do this, right? And I just wanted to secure that job, right? Get that job security. You want to, you know, when you go to work, you'd want to do something that sort of people go,

well, we can't lose him. He's an asset, right? And so I felt like winning a race was going to do that for me. And I didn't want to work a real job. I didn't want to, I'd worked real jobs, didn't, I wanted to race for a living, right? That's, I grew up dreaming of racing for a living and getting that first win.

and in my mind was going to lock me in. I was going to be a career racer, whether I was going to be a winner or not. I don't know, but just getting that first win was probably going to be something that would keep me in the driver's seat for the rest of my career. And it did.

It was a pretty big day. Next question from Red Kipp. If you could see a crossover weekend anywhere in the world between NASCAR and Formula One, where would it be and why? This is, of course, hypothetical, and money and logistics do not matter. My gosh, Wackens Glenn jumps out.

for some reason, you know? You know, I don't know how F1 would feel about coming back to the Glen, but I think, you know, the trouble with a deal like that, so when you talk about having companion races, it's kind of like having a concert, somebody has to be the headliner, right? And both bands think they're the top band, right? And so nobody wants to open for the other. And if you go, if you're the first race, then you're looked as the, maybe the lesser of the two, right? So the egos of the series between NASCAR and IndyCar or F1 or whoever has these companion events, you know, you have to put those aside.

And I think in this situation for a, for an F1 NASCAR doubleheader to ever happen, no way ever is FD is F1 going to be second fiddle. They're never going to be the opening act, not going to happen. So NASCAR would have to be willing to be that opening act. And I think that would be okay. But I think the glen would be a pretty cool place to see the F-1 guys try to race and go around in the boot and all that good stuff. Next question from Dan Aldrich. What is one non-racing skill you want to learn or accomplish? It's on your bucket list.

Non-racing skill? Yeah, non-racing. Playing the guitar. I was just talking to my wife about this the other day. It was a fun conversation, but she went to. she wasn't too into it. I was thinking to myself, I was like, man, there's one thing that I've always wanted to do

that I've never done, and I wish I would have done, I wish I would have set time aside to take guitar lessons. I have some friends that play professionally or their musicians or singers or whatever, and there are times when they'll pull out a guitar and play a song,

and, you know, just in around the house or on vacation or whatever. And I'd love to be able to just compliment whatever they're doing, right? Or if you had a buddy that could play, if you could sit down and play together, right? So when I was younger, I used to play the drums. I do not know how. I used to be able to play. Do not know how to play anymore.

I mean, if I sat down and spent three or four weeks, I probably could get back to it. But it's not like, I don't think I could do it. But I mentioned that because I used to. used to play with a guy who played the guitar. It was so fun. We played smashing pumpkins and Stone Temple Pilots and Pearl Jam and all those type of songs way back in the late 90s is kind of when I was really into it. And he was pretty good and I felt like I was okay. And we were good enough that when we would play, we'd get done and go like, dang, that was really awesome. Right. It was so fun. And I regret never really sitting down and just putting the time aside

to try to learn how to play the guitar because I think that would be really personally rewarding to pick up that instrument and play it, you know? Could you imagine, Mike? You know, just picking up a guitar and playing a song? You'd be the life of the party. There'd never be a dull time because you could always spice it up

if you feel like it needs a little ppped up and just grab the guitar and start strumming. Yeah, so I think, yeah, I was ready for you. You had a tough question, you had a tough one there. I didn't think you had a chance to answer that one. Dale Jr. is the guitar guy at the party now. I don't know if I'd be that guy. I don't know if I'd have the confidence to be like,

yeah, I'm going to pull it out and start and play a song in front of everybody. Yeah, check this out, y'all. I think I'd be more like this with a buddy or playing by myself or whatever, you know. All right, next question from Joel. What is the coolest sponsor perk you have ever received besides free beer from Budweiser? Apparently that one doesn't count. Well, the coolest one was in 1990. We won the Xfinity Series Championship

and Chevrolet Dad, it was like Middle of December, maybe a little bit after that, but Dad called me up and it's like 10 o'clock in the morning and he's like, come over to the shop and then meet me in the grand room,

whatever we called that, I can't remember what it was, but that big middle room with all the cars sitting in there. He said, meet me in there, put on some nice clothes, you know, wear something, put on a collar shirt. So I go in the,

there and there's a red corvette parked in the room and a couple of Chevy execs and they were gifting me a 99 red corvette for winning the championship. I couldn't believe it. I was blown away. I still have the car. My mom drove it a bunch and it's parked in her garage still over at her house. Willie keeps it cleaned up. The thing ain't worth 20 grand today. Those cars didn't hold their value, but it's just, I don't know. I've gotten cool things for wins and things like that since, but that was like the first, holy smokes, I can't believe you're giving me this car.

I'm unreal, you know. So that was one I'll never forget. Yeah, that's a pretty cool deal. All right, one more question from Squirrely Canadian. If you could run one race over again from your whole career, what would it be? One race. Man, I don't know. That's tough.

That's a great question. man, probably the 2004 Daytona 500. You know, winning the Daytona 500, an incredible feeling, and there's so much, winning your first, obviously, giant sense of relief to be able to say, I've done that. And I'm going to have that trophy, and I'm going to go through all the things that happened to the drivers when they win that race.

They go on a media tour and do all kinds. I mean, you're really celebrated your life changes, right? I remember running that race, This is old war out track, cars sliding around, tons of fun. And me and Tony Stewart were on a different pit cycle than everybody else. I don't know why nobody else picked up on it, but the way we were pitting, we were extending our lead every time we'd cycle through a green flag pit stop. I think we were coming to pit road earlier and getting back on the racetrack, the speed from the new tire for a couple laps would give us, you know, maybe a second. You know, and each time we kept doing that, we kept spacing ourselves out from the rest of the pack, you know, the battle from third to tenth or whatever.

So at the end of the race, you know, it's unlikely to see it today, but at the end of this race in 2004, when pack racing was the thing still, it's me and Tony Stewart. And I think Dave Blaney was mixed up in there with his, with the 22 car and kind of lost the draft late. But handling was so important, you know, you could kind of break away from guys if you wanted to. I passed Tony by myself really because Kurt Bush, a lap car was kind of mixed up in there with us. He was mad at me because I had gave him a tire rub. We had contacted the trial over early in the race, and it gave him a tire rub,

and he had to come to pit road and change his tire under green, and he lost a lap, and he ran a lap down the whole race and was mad about that. And so at the end of the race, he'd come over the rail and said, I'm helping this 20. Tony Jr., I think relays that information to me. He's like, 97 ain't going to help you, all right? just so you know. And there's some great YouTube video of my own board, you riding on board with me

for the entire last several laps. And I had to figure out how to lift and drop back and create runs, get back in the gas, and draft up to Tony, and had to figure out how to make my car produce enough energy to get a run on Tony to be able to get to his quarter panel and side draft him and try to pass him, right? And so you can watch that in car me using the throttle a little bit and backing up to the car behind me and even though the 97 didn't want to help me finding a way to get some energy off the nose of his car obviously explaining it to you right now I was really proud of that I didn't think that I was going to make the pass I didn't think it was possible to make the pass and I don't know why Tony didn't defend it more than than he did because

we get I'm side by side with him through the travel into turn one through turns one and two and I kind of back, he's kind of going forward, and I'm going to come off a turn two, and we're separating ourselves. And as we're coming off a turn two, he's going to have momentum, and I'm going to try to slow him down, and we made a little contact,

and the side draft starts working for me. As I pull forward and move down, he didn't come down to side drive me. It's the Daytona 500. I don't know why in the world. He didn't go, I'm going to do it. I'm a little siddraft you and slow you down and keep this battle side by side, right?

And eventually, Kurt would come forward and push him. I don't know why all that didn't go down, but we clear him and then we won race. So here's your answer. All right, that's all for today, guys. That's a lot of great stuff, man. I always say this, but I want to thank you guys for supporting us. Really enjoy these conversations that we have and the great questions you guys ask. And I hope that you enjoy the answers.

Ask Junior is one of my favorite parts of the show. It'll be back next year. when we resume recording the Dale Jr. downloads sometime in early spring or late winter, whenever it is we want to start. But it'll be difficult for me to be patient to get this going again. I've enjoyed this season. I've enjoyed the feedback that we get from the show and the momentum and popularity that the show gains throughout the year is a lot of fun.

And I hope you guys have enjoyed the guests we've had this year. All right, Mike, it's last call. Last call. Let's do it. Last call. All right, last call. It's a little bit of unfortunate news, but I need to go out there and let the fans know to start this last call. We've been talking about and promoting the fact that we're going to be doing a live PRI show,

a live Dale Jr. download at the PRI show in Indianapolis. Turns out that's not going to happen. We found out yesterday that that deal's not going to happen. So unfortunately, we're not going to be at PRI show. but maybe we do a live show somewhere else in the coming months. I mean, that's always a possibility. But just if you were going there because of us, I am deeply sorry about that. If you were going there anyways and hope to see us, we'll catch you at another time.

But just wanted to start and let everybody know that. We'll also post something on social media, Leah, so we can make sure everybody's clear that we will not be there on December 9th like we had originally planned. Also, we dropped a trailer a few weeks ago on the Burton Continuum. That podcast is coming soon. So just to expect that. Mark Train is here. We've got our last TV show of the season.

This is the last podcast of the season, officially. But that means we're going to have a last TV show. Now, it's going to air a couple times. Kevin Harvick brings a couple of, you know, a little special sauce with it, right? So Thursday at 6 p.m. is the first airing of this week's episode. This is on NBC Sports Network. The re-air will be Saturday at 5 p.m.

The reason that's cool is this is going to lead in to the banquet coverage. NBC Sports Network got a whole bunch of plans for the banquet coverage, the burnouts, all of that stuff that's happening in Nashville. So you can catch the download twice, once on Thursday at 6 p.m., another time on Saturday at 5 p.m. And also, listen, we've got a lot of things in the work in this offseason. You need to follow social media, Dirty Mo Media. wherever you, whatever your preferred social media is, we're there.

And we've got a lot of cool little things in store for this off season. So you will not be without content from us. We've got plenty coming. And that's that. Dale Jr., let's wrap it up for the season. All right, everybody, that's the final show for 2021. Always difficult to end our season. I always like to just keep this going.

We get so much momentum built up throughout the year. And then we had to stop. We don't have to stay. It's just a temporary pause. It's all it is. I think it's unfortunate. I'd like to keep on going. Hey, dude, you got your name's on to build, man.

Anytime you're ready to do it, we'll drop in here and start doing a podcast. I've told you this in private that we should just do year round. You said it in public and private. Oh. You said it every. No, you have. Hey, listen, if you ever want to, we just do it. How about that?

You just give us a day heads up. I got nothing. A day heads up. Just one day. That we're going to do it all year? No, no. Like, hey, man, I just feel like coming in tomorrow. Oh, I think you need more in the day.

Ah, man, I can make it happen. Well, you need some time to score a guest. No, we don't need a guess, man. We got you. We have a guest every week. Yeah, but we could BS. If we didn't need a guess, we wouldn't have guests. Ah.

Ah. Ah. Yeah. A humbug. Is everybody ready for Christmas? Oh, dude. I'm ready. Oh, well, it's all you got to look forward to since there's no Dell Jr.

Download. We'll see you. Take it even. So that's 2021. Let's ride off in the sunset with the Dale Jr. download and Dale Jr. Enjoy. For some reason, in the last year or a year and a half, I've gotten super nostalgic. I've gotten even more.

All right. Now, if you thought I was then, I have ratcheted up much more. Yeah, and not just about racing stuff, right? more about just life, music, styles, and furniture and houses and all that stuff. Yeah, I mean, when you're walking up the stairs to go to the door and opening up, man, you are literally transported back in time. And when you walk in the room, there's no one else there. I mean, it's as if you have, you get a little nervous after a couple days that you may not

return from the 80s. I will also say the breakfast. Amazing. The food. We had a dinner outside in this little courtyard. Amazing. I also, I'm not even into sunsets. I mean, I'm not.

I'm not into, they're cool. I'm not like, I'm not like looking forward to every sunset and going, you know, I took a, I took a picture. So we're driving out of the, you know, so we're driving out of the sunset. the racetrack. And I'm riding with one of the stat guys, Russell. Yeah. Super cool guy. Russell goes,

dang, look at the sunset. Oh, yes. And I was like, I'll be honest. I don't believe I've ever seen one that pretty, and I don't think I'll ever will see another one as good as that. And so, only in Phoenix. Would, you know, would you see a sunset, even a non-sunset gap, right?

I've seen a few good sunsets, but I'm not looking for them, right? If you could do that, get into that, make love to that mic. The sunset, this thing was amazing. The sunset, to me, look like what might be on the screen when the credits are old in an old, clean east, west. Yes. I'm not even into sunsets. Dude, I'm telling you.

The sunset was amazing. The racetrack vibe, energy was top-notch, best I've ever seen. Mm-hmm. The championship moment that you want or expect or you hope that our sport has. Mm-hmm. They had it. I'm down with talking about the sunset. To me.

Finn.