The Dale Jr. Download - 453 - Slugger Labbe - The DEI Days, Yates' Go-To, & A Broken Toolbox

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Dale Earnhardt Jr. digs up a part of his past when he and co-host Mike Davis sit down with longtime NASCAR Crew Chief Slugger Labbe. After growing up in Maine and getting his start in the Busch North Tour ranks, Slugger hitched a ride to North Carolina with the racing Houston family and started his path on what would become a long career in the NASCAR garage. Over the years, Slugger worked for many powerhouse organizations such as Hendrick Motorsports, Yates Racing, and Richard Childress Racing.Slugger got his footing in the North Carolina NASCAR scene by working for teams in the Busch Grand National Ranks, under drivers Tommy Houston, Jeff Green, and Terry Labonte. He soon got a phone call offering him a job at Hendrick to work as a tire specialist. A few years later he got his first crack at being a crew chief through the Yates organization, calling the shots for Kenny Irwin Jr. A major topic of discussion was Slugger’s second stint at Dale Earnhardt Incorporated, where he served as Michael Waltrip’s Crew Chief starting in the middle of the 2001 season. Slugger provides a lot of never before heard stories about the famed organization and he and Dale are able to provide some closure on some of the tumultuous events that took place during that time. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Calling is a production of Dirty Mo Media. There he is. Come on in here, buddy. Have a seat. Hey, everybody. Glad you tuned in. It's time for another episode of the Dale Jr. Download.

Mike Davis, Dale and Hart Jr., the Mojangles Studio. You've got a great guest today. Well, how you doing, Rhett? I'm doing fine right now. This is every week, okay, boy? buckle in. You died on that hill. Your career died on that hill and you were hardheaded.

You were a bigger idiot. I didn't even think about it. You thought about it and didn't ask. That makes me the bigger idiot. I think so. Hey, everybody. We're back again for another episode of the Dale Jr. Download. It's Wednesday.

It's time for our ally guest segment in the Bojang studio with Mike Davis. Mike, we've got a great guest coming on here. He's definitely an ally in my life at different periods. Slugger Labby is going to come on the show. Yeah, it's going to be fun. So Slugger, everybody in my circle remembers Slugger as the crew chief for Michael Walter. He's been in so many different scenarios of so many different teams. Even after Michael, he had an entirely full career's worth of opportunities and jobs that he's going to talk about.

But one in particular that I wanted to touch base with him on is when he first came to work at DEI. He actually came to work for Dad's Xfinity team, and he's working on the number three Goodrich car, and I think Jeff Green's driving it, and I might have broken his toolbox. So I'm going to bring that up, see if he remembers it. Hopefully he's not angry, and maybe he remembers, maybe he does it. That's interesting. All right, well, see if he does that. By the way, Slugger Labby, to me, is this, it's a generation of crew chiefs like Fat Back McSwain. They had the name, They had the look. They had the personality.

And if you grew up on NASCAR in the 90s and in the early 2000s like I did, man, Slugger Labby is a part of that story, right? And so it's so cool. He's in drag racing now. I know he works for Toyota, but the fact of the matter is that he is an ally. He's an ally. And then, of course, we're going to probably talk about a little Dale Earnhardt Incorporated, right? I mean, hard not to. He was such a prevalent member there.

So, man, slug or Labby? I can't wait. It's going to be fun. I'm looking forward to it. He's an ally. Thank you to Ally for everything they do for us here at Dirty Mo Media and everything they do in NASCAR. Ali's a big supporter of our industry and absolutely a big supporter of us here at Dirty Mo Media in the Dale Jr. Download.

So let's get started and bring Slugger into the room. Work. I want to work on the cars. Right on. You're ready for sure. I go to. We've got to test your college first for you. Let you go back there, see exactly what it is you want to learn.

Right on. Typically, we don't let people wearing a Toyota show. Yeah, right. To the Chevrolete shop. we should do it. Let's do it and get out there and work. So Slugger, man. It's been a long time, man. I haven't seen you in a while. I know. I see a track every now, man. But yeah, it's been a while since we're teammates. What are you doing these days?

So, yeah, I work for TRD. I've been there six years and engineering manager vehicle support. So basically, you know, all the teams in series that we support, we have engineers in different divisions. And the engineers report to me. And we make sure that they're using all of our tools and understanding how they work and make sure they use them properly. All right. So is that, does that, you know, focus more in any discipline than another? You mostly

stock cars still? Yeah, so a little bit of everything. I know you've been doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah, so basically my accounts are NHRA drag racing, which is something that we definitely talk about because it's a really good time. Arka series, truck series, and also do a lot of cup testing as well. How about traveling?

A lot. A lot of traveling. But you don't mind traveling when you don't wear a target on your back. Yeah. So, you know, as when you're a crew chief, you have this big ass target on your back, right? So, uh, so I get to go and work with the teams, mentor them, and offer up advice and work on strategy and things like that. So it's, uh, definitely a different mindset for me. It is. I mean, you seem different. You seem like you're much more, um, uh, less stressed out, I suppose as, you know, because being a cup crew chief or just being in the cup garage connected so, tethered so tightly to a team or an individual car driver is tough.

And I know you lived that forever. I know you wouldn't trade anything, any of it for anything, but you seem like you're much happier in this new role. I am for sure, but, you know, being a crew chief in any series is tough, but when you're in the Cup series for 20 years as a crew chief like I was, it definitely is very taxing on you. You work 80 to 100 hours a week, and I always had the mentality, Dale, that if somebody else was working and I wasn't, they were, they're working harder than me and learning something I wasn't. So I always had the mindset of just work, work, work, and, you know, go find the next greatest thing. So let's talk about how you got started in racing. I know that, you know, I know that you worked up north and lived up north, but what's the first thing you remember about a race car?

When's the first time you ever saw a race car? Sure. My dad, Ray Labby, he worked on Dick McCabe's race car back in the green car. Yeah, the green car. Like the prettiest Bush North car. I mean, so I used to look at stock car magazines and stuff like that back in the day, and they had a spread of his car in one of the particular issues, man, and that was the coolest-looking race car. His is just clean, green. Right. And so there was a lot of pride in, I guess, the craftsmanship and your dad had something to do with that. He was. Yeah, he was a weekend warrior. So basically my dad would get home every night at five o'clock from his normal job and he would eat dinner, take a shower and go work on a race car until midnight, and that's just the way it was. What was his normal job? He was

at a dealership. He was a service manager. Yeah, so I always wondered where my dad was, like, growing up, me and my sister were like, well, where's dad at? You know, he was always gone racing or working or whatever may be. So when I was young, I really was not a fan of racing because it took my dad away from me. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. So, but, you know, I'm talking about. So I guess it goes back to 1983 or 84. My dad took me to a race. Which one? It was in Thunder Road in Barry, Vermont.

And Dick McKayb actually won the race. So you got to experience the top of the top right out of the gate. I thought it was easy. First race, they went to the race. You had to go take a bunch of pictures, wear hats, and drink some beer. I didn't drink beer, but they were. So I thought it was cool. And then that's kind of when I got the bug.

And then, you know, I was still in high school. I was a freshman when I went to my first race. And then in 1985, I started working on Kelly Moore's race car. Kelly Moore was a great Northeast racer. His son's still racing the day. That's right. Yeah, Ryan. And, you know, just my dad asked Kelly if he would mentor me, train me.

Because I didn't, Dale, I didn't know what a half-inch wrench was back in. Where was your dad working at this particular point? Yeah, still the same place. Why didn't he want you to go over there? I think he just wanted me to go learn because something different. Yeah, just, you know, because sometimes we don't always listen to our dads, right? Tell me, so tell me about the northeastern NASCAR stock car group. It seems to me, and I've kind of, I kind of, I don't know it well at all, but the little bit that I've been around it,

it seems like that there's a very, even though they're very, very competitive and race the shit at each other on the racetrack, there's a, there's a very close family atmosphere among the teams from team to team. Certainly because back then there was nobody full time, right? It's everybody working at night and volunteers and, you know, you didn't fly on airplanes and you drove. You were part of the team. So it was definitely a lot of effort and a lot of commitment. So if somebody got in trouble, got in a wreck, and sometimes they had double-heder events and people would always, you know, share and help and get to the racetrack. So definitely different mindset because all they did was work, you know, it's a lot different than what it is here.

Yeah. Less competitive in terms of, hey, man, I'm not, you know, if your son comes over here, I don't want him learning this and taking it over there. There was none of that, you know. Yeah, so Kelly just took me under his wing, and like I said, I didn't know what a half-inch wrench was, and he just showed me. You really had no clue what? None.

I just knew that, hey, I went to Victory Lane with my dad, and I want to do this. So I was still in high school. I was missing out on a lot of high school activities, right, the football games and going to parties and all those things, but I was working on racing because. Did you care? Like, I didn't get to go. I didn't go to prom or none of that stuff, but I didn't care. I wasn't going to go either way.

Well, I was right in that age. Like I said, I started when I was a sophomore of junior. So you had a girlfriend, you had all that going on, and were you an athlete in school? No. Do I look like an athlete? I don't know. I could have been. No.

So, I mean, okay, so you had your circle of friends. Did you ever tell them to, you know, get them to come out to the races and see why you liked it? They never did when I was in the Northeast, but when I moved away to North Carolina and finally got a name for myself, they started following me. All your high school friends? Yeah. You still? Yeah, we still talk a lot. And yeah, we have a group text.

We all talk. That's cool. Yeah, so they come around every now. And then we're actually going to New Hampshire next weekend for drag racing. And there's a big group of people coming for that. That's cool. But yeah, we're getting back to Kelly. So he was very patient with me.

He showed me the, Kelly was a real meticulous person and paid attention to detail. And that's kind of where I learned, like, man, everything should be critiqued to work on. And Kelly pointed me in that direction. So for, you know, three or four years, Kelly was the guy that mentored me to understand how to work on race cars and how they worked. Yeah. And it's weird. So we had run some combination races with Kelly over the years.

And I think it was in 86, 87, we started doing north-south combination races. So the Bush North and the Bush South. Yeah, you remember those days. And we'd run Daytona and some other races, Nazareth. I think your dad actually drove one of Kelly's cars at Nazareth. I believe so. And that's when he got on the Jack Tan Engine program. I don't know if you remember all that, but yeah.

I remember Jack Tan Motors. Right, yes. So that comes from your dad driving Kelly's car at Nazareth. He liked the motor? He did, yeah, he did. So, yeah, but that's another story we can talk about later. But I'd become friends with the Houston's when we had run these combination races. And it was just, I was starting to make friends and just.

Who out of the group, like Tommy, Marty, and who was the first one that talked to you? More so Scott. Scott. Yeah, Scott and I have become friends and we texted quite a bit or talked quite a bit on the phone. And it was weird. So the southern cars came to Oxford, Maine to run the Oxford 250. It was a combination race. And just before the race started, I'd ask Scott, I said,

hey, man, I need to send something back to North Carolina with you. And he goes, what is it? And I said, me. He goes, what the hell you mean? I said, I'm ready to get out of Maine and I'm ready to move south. Had you made this decision before you got there that you was going to tell him this? No, not at all. Just the vibe of the...

Heat of the moment? Yeah, just the atmosphere of Oxford, right? All these cars there racing around, all the... The Butch, Lindleys and all those people, all the greats that were there. And I was like, man, I just, I wonder if they'll do this. And I finally had the boss to walk up to him and ask him. And he's like, sure, let's do it, you know. So that's how it all started for me.

So how quick were you on the road now moving south? Seven hours later. Damn. Yeah. I went home, woke up my mother, and I said, hey, mom, I'm moving in the morning. And she goes, what you mean you moving? I said, I'm going to North Carolina. Went upstairs, packed a suitcase and had $1,000 cash, and away I went.

Where did you get the money? I had it in my room. You saved it. Yeah. And so you do you know that you've got this, you know, you've got a place to stay? Nothing. Where are you driving to? Nowhere.

Just all I know I was going to Newton, North Carolina. That was it. All right. So you know you're driving to Newton to the Houston's. Right. So you knew that. Yep. And you were going to work with them.

I had no clue. You didn't know that. No clue. I just asked for a ride. And I said, when I get to, I'm going to figure it out. So you didn't ask for a job. You just said, I need a lift. I need a ride.

And so did you ride with? with them? Yeah, we did. Road and the hauler all the way back. And what in the on the way, on the way down there, are you like trying to figure out ways to work in your sales pitch of, hey man, what kind of, you know, y'all need some help or? We just had a good time, you know, because it was a toter home type thing and, you know, me, Marty, Andy, Scott, were all piled up in this thing. And where's Tommy? He's behind us in the van. Okay. And Marty, we have about halfway, I guess we're in Virginia and Marty goes, hey, Yankee, what are you going to do for a job? And I'm like, hell, I don't know.

I'll figure it out when I get there. So one thing and another, we backed up. to the shop and I started helping them unload the car and then just started working away and here we are so wait so you did you end up working with Tommy and there I did yes so basically the first day there Marty Martha and Tommy were a little bit behind us in the van and when they got there we were all working and Martha goes where are you going to stay and I said well I don't know Martha I said I'm just I want a chance and she said well you can stay in the house with us yeah so I ended up I moved in with Tommy and Martha stayed in the basement And then I started working on the cars every day.

And our first race was Volusia County. And that next weekend was in Volusia County. We won the race. And I'm thinking, man, this is pretty easy. I won my first North race. One of my first Southern race is pretty cool. But again, the Houston's, they were unsponsored at the time. It was Southern Biscuit on the side of it, which somewhat sponsorship.

And then they ended up getting Rose's department stores, and then they put me on full time. So were you getting paid? There's no way they're paying you at first. Nope. But they did give you a place to stay. They did, yeah. How long did you go not getting paid? Oh, I don't know.

They probably got roses probably three months later. So, yeah. So I stretched $1,000 pretty hard. I want to know how Tommy and them afforded to race. Because even back then, they, I believe they would have been able to afford to race. I mean, but how did they race so well on such a tight budget? They had a tight budget, you know, Steve Arndt and, his brother Brevard with

Southern Biscuit, they paid a lot of the bills, but Tommy just, you know, they didn't have a lot. They just took care of what they did, and they had a couple of race cars, and they just made it work. I don't know how anybody survived in racing with the V6 era. You know, all the motors that were blowing up and all that back in the day. Certainly it was a tough

time, but yeah, they were really, they watched what they did, and they spent the money on the right things, but at the end of the day, they were a really competitive race team that did really, really well. Is Andy or Marty racing their late model at Hickory at all during this period of time? Andy was just starting his late model. Just starting.

Yeah, and then Marty was like a year behind him. So was the late model sitting over in the garage floor and yeah. Yeah, it was like you, right? When everyone else was done working on the race car during the day, you went working on that and night. I bet that was fun. Yeah, so kind of, same thing as you, but it's different family. What's the quick description of the Houston Racing family? Because I know of them, I know nothing about them.

Tommy is Hal's brother. How is Teresa's dad? So Tommy would have been Teresa's uncle. Got it. Okay. All right. And so we would go to the Houston family reunions and Tommy and Andy and all them would come. And it was a blast.

Andy was, I love Andy. I mean, such a great dude. They're all passionate. Yeah. And they're genuinely nice people. And of course, Marty, I didn't know Scott Will at all, but what I know of Tommy, he's an awesome dude. And Tommy, there's little moments where dad and Tommy, you know, would race each other a lot at Metrolina and the 70s and stuff.

And so I know Dad had a lot of respect for Tommy, and I think that's how he met Hal, Teresa, and all that. So while this is happening, this is 90, what? This is 89. 89. So Dad is married to Teresa. Right. Right.

Do you ever see Dad come cruising through? Never once. Not once. Yeah. I see him talk at the racetrack, but he never came by the show. He'd come by, yes, with Tommy and stuff. Yeah. So you worked at the Houston's for a while.

You kind of went through a couple other Xfinity teams. You worked with Bob Labani and Bob. Right. You worked with Kenny Wallace. Kenny Wallace for our time with Bertie. So Bertie is, he's, I don't know the guy. Like I've seen him at the racetrack a little bit when we were racing in the Xfinity series. And I remember seeing him around, but he's got, he's this sort of, he was like,

the crew chief in the Xfinity series, like won everything, won a bunch of championships. Always had the fast car. Always seemed to be the guy that was week in, week out, tough. But he also had a reputation as funny and having a good time. And so just help me understand who he is. Yeah, he was definitely a guy that you're supposed to be there at 7 o'clock. Your ass better be there, right?

And you worked hard from 7 to 5. And then when 5 o'clock come, the cooler was open, and we're all drinking beer, having fun. So he was one of us, much like Tony's, senior, right? He just right there beside you working, having a good time. But Bertie was really, really passionate. He knew a lot about the three-link wrist suspension where a lot of people didn't at the time, and he really came in. And that was his claim to fame was all that. But but, but man, Bertie would party with you and have a good time. But he was definitely a guy

that I learned a lot from, along, you know, with other critchies that I worked with. Back then, when the, when the clock struck four or five o'clock, everyone partied. Like, the beer like that's how it was at the deerhead shop which you would come to know well like as soon as it was five o'clock the work it was serious have your shit together but in that moment when it went five o'clock here come the liquor bottle and all the beer coming out right and everybody's drinking beer and riding around on the back of the farm that was one of the sales pitches that tony senior put on me he said man every tuesday night over here at the deerhead shop we have chicken wing night and david lippard would cook chicken wings and everybody would hang out every night and he said you should come enjoy some of that atmosphere so how did we get away from this. This sounds amazing. Yeah. It was.

I bet we wouldn't have such a hard time finding employees if we had a party here. Beer at 5 o'clock and chicken wing night on Tuesdays. But you know, it's like that now in the drag racing series. Is it? Yeah. So as soon as you're done qualifying, that's what everyone does. They break out the liquor bottles and the beers and start having a good time. So it's definitely NHRA today is like NASCAR, what it was in the early 90s, 2000s.

That's interesting. You would know. So you went to, when did you? end up at DEI. You came to DEI, not to the cup deal as people would know you as a crew chief for Michael Walker. But you came to DEI for a short spell to work on the Xfinity program. And I think maybe David Green was driving it at the time. Jeff Green. Jeff Green. I'm sorry, there's 91. Yeah. So they hired me in 90. And 1991 is when Jeff drove full time. They hired you in 90. That's right. Dad was still driving the car. That's right. And then Jeff is the first full time. You're going full-time

race they hired you and said, hey, man, we're going full time. Right. And so I remember when you came. I remember the very first day that you came there. Now, I don't remember like particular moments, but I remember. So forever, it had been Rick Boss, Tony Sr., Tony Jr., and that was it. And bugs. Bugs.

Right. Sweeping the floors and carrying all, bugs cleaning up. We, you're like one of the first, if not the first, you know, outside higher. Right. And so I was like, oh, man, they're getting serious. This is a legit race team now. An enterprise. Yeah.

They're really going after this. And so you brought your toolbox, like a mechanic, like we're moving from dealership to dealership, right? When you get hired, you take your toolbox out of that bay and you take it down the street to the other dealership and that's, you roll it in. And I think I was trying to get something out of your toolbox. I don't remember why, but I was looking for something. I broke the drawer. Do you remember this? You're the one. Yeah.

Nobody fessed up to me. I did it. It was you. Yeah. I'm going to send you an invoice. Do you remember? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I thought Tony Jr. did it.

No, it was me. Okay, well. Yeah. I don't know why. What, 30 years later, here we are. I need to get this off my chest. Yeah. That's cool.

Yeah. I don't know what I was. I still have that toolbox. Do you? Yeah. Is it still broke? No, I fixed it. You fix it.

I don't remember what broke or how broke, but it's something about the drawer, the locking system in the drawer with the lid up or down, right? And I was probably... I just fixed it this winter. No shit. I got the parts. I'm going to give you the broken part.

If you wanted to break again, just let Dale Gere loan, borrow something from it. It was a snap-on toolbox, and it was the top lid and it had a little lever you had to pick up to close it. And Bullamusa over here obviously didn't understand how it all worked. Oh, so you're talking about that little brace at the end. So now it wouldn't close all the way. It wouldn't close. Yeah. Sorry.

I didn't know it was you, dude. It was me. Well, shit. How did you do that? I don't know. I was over. He was checking. It was someone's had a new toolbox.

No one's ever brought a toolbox of DEI except me. I recognized quickly that it was not any of our shit, right? And I'm like, and then I broke it and I was like, oh, I think I was trying to close it or something. I just fixed that this one. I swear to God. It's crazy. Yep. I'll take a picture of it.

I felt, hey, you know what? You guys would be teammates for years at Dillenhardt Incorporated. And you never said a thing about this toolbox. until now. I accused Tony Jr. Well, he can be left off the hook now. He probably knew, but never would tell you. Dang. But good times, man.

Well, look, I didn't know, I didn't know Slugger, and I didn't know how he would react. Like, this guy's going to go, he don't give a damn who I am, right? He might chew my ass off. And I knew, if I broke Tony's senior's, I knew what I was going to get. And I'm like, you know what, I can avoid this ass chewing. Yeah. And just pretend like nothing happened. It's the new guy.

Yeah. name slugger. Right. Yeah, you don't want to break the sluggers toolbox. I bid. Yeah, right. Yes, right. This guy's name is Slugger.

Right. What the hell's? I'm going to scoot on out of this shop before anybody notices. I got to go tell Slugger. I broke his shit. Oh, that's cool, man. So how long did you work there? It was brief.

I worked there for a couple years. Really? Yeah. God, it felt like six months. It's because you never went back into the shop after. No, it might have been just over a year. Yeah. Yeah.

And so what was your, what's your memories of that particular experience. I bet it's hard to compartmentalize the two because, you know, you did come back to DEI for a very long period of time. That has to be saturating your memory. But being part of that little Xfinity team when trying to get, you know, trying to get that going full time. It was a neat experience for me because just, you know, one, to work for your dad and two, to work in a shop that had deerhead and animals all over the place. It was crazy, crazy environment. But I'll never forget the parts room was upstairs. And Tony

Sr. told me to go upstairs and go the top of the stairs and get this off the shelf up there. So I had walked upstairs. And I was just in awe. It's like my second or third day there. And I got to the top of the stairs and I took a left. And I didn't know where the hell it was. I wasn't in the parts room. And I found this

duffel bag on the floor. And it was full of cash. So I went downstairs and I told Tony Sr. I said, man, I couldn't find that part you were telling me about but I said there's duffel bag full of cash. He goes, you dumb son of a bitch. I told you to take it right. He said, that's where Dale's senior stuff's at. So anyway, he had a bunch of money.

Wondered into the ditties. Yeah, I was in the wrong air. I was like, surprised I didn't get shot. But no, it was definitely a great experience working with the URIs. You know, we drove into vans to all the racetracks, had a good time. And that's something that I think we miss in today's world is that environment of just the bonding of riding in the vans. Yeah, driving to all of the racetracks, Dover, everywhere. Talladega, a 15-pasture.

Were you there the year that me and Carrie went to Atlanta with y'all? Were you part of that deal? I don't think so. Yeah, we had a great time in the Atlanta in the hotel bar. Oh, no. Yeah. So when, and you know this. So maybe you can confirm.

Back then, not only did you ride in a 15-passage of a van to the racetrack, when you got to the hotel on Thursday. or whatever. You went in, put your bag in the floor of the lobby, checked in, got your room key, and walked straight into the bar. That's right. You didn't even take your bag upstairs.

I've seen them do this, and I'm like, y'all aren't going to take your bag to your room? Nope. We'll get it after, we'll get it later. And I'm like, okay, and they go into the, me and Carrie, we run our bag up to the room. We come back downstairs, and they're on the damn gas in this bar until midnight.

And they come out, grab their bags, and go upstairs then. Like, they weren't even, We were such a... But back then, we didn't have it per die, and we had a credit card. We had Dale Senior's credit card, so we just let it rip, and it was definitely a good time. Just find that hard to believe he'd let y'all just do that. But again, I think that's... He's cut out of that.

Tony Senior had some pull. Yeah, yeah, right, right. So are we talking about Tony Senior, Tony Jr., is Bug? I mean, like, whoever... Is this the team? Shop for him and she's clean. He kept shop clean, yeah. Right, right, right.

He didn't travel. But, you know, what I remember the most about working for your dad back then was, like, When you went to work every day, you didn't know if you're going to work on a race car, if you're going to be out on the farm, build a fence, trap them deer. Yeah, I mean, you never knew what you were going to do. Yeah. And your dad is actually the first guy that taught me to weld without a welding helmet. Because I would out there be, I was building a fence with him out in a pasture,

and I'd always put my helmet on. He said, you're wasting damn time putting your helmet on. So he taught me how to hold the helmet away from my head and weld. So it's a crazy thing. Yeah. But some of the stuff you remember. Just hold, just look through the helmet. Yeah, look through the glass.

I'll not take the time to put the helmet on your head. So it's just silly stuff. Okay, then give us an idea. When you work out of the deerhead shop, you show up in the morning at what time? Seven. Okay. So where are you living at that point? I live 10 minutes away.

So you show up. Is Dale in there to greet you guys? I were like, who's in there when you get there? Just normal guys working on the cars. So then would Dale just drop in and... What are you doing? I'm just working on this. Well, come with me.

I need you to do this. And you go out and work on a farm and do whatever. One time they brought a, on a Saturday, they brought a whole horse trailer full of dears that we had to, they were tranquilized, and we had to drag them out in the pasture, and they would shoot them back with something to bring them back. Really? Yeah, you never heard that? No, I never saw that. Yeah, so I guess he had got some deer from polkino or something like that, and they came in on a horse trailer. Big bucks.

Yeah, so we would drag them out, put them on the ground, and they would give them some kind of shot or something to reverse the tranquilizer. Fire them up. And they would, like, fall over on their feet because their feet went working. Yeah, I mean, just normal sh**. I mean, it was crazy. Tony Senior will tell you a better story than me, but yeah, it was... That's a good one. You just never knew every day, I'm like, what was...

What's going to happen today? Then I couldn't wait to get home and tell my wife, like, man, we did this today. You can't believe this, you know? But, I mean, it was an honor to work for your dad. It really was. I agree, man. It was fun to be around. It was fun to be around because you're right.

You never knew what was going to happen. And can we just appreciate the fact that, I mean, the most Dale Earnhardt, awesome story ever. Add one to the list. There's just a duffel bag full of cash in a hallway. that you just, and I got yelled at. Yeah, of course you got yelled at,

but it's just, man, I mean, I'm just, we got to stop and appreciate this. It's a moment. Man, we used to go up in the trees with nets and the deer would come by

and we'd drop the net on the deer. I mean, dude, it was like all kind of crazy shit. I remember that. Yeah, you do? Yeah, they had the firing caps. Out in the field,

they had this giant net on these poles, and it had these firing caps at the end and blasting caps. And so they would put some, they would put something like corn or whatever to get the deer to come under there. And dad had particular bucks that he wanted to tag. Right.

So that he, you know, he was managing his deer herd on his property. And, uh, he, um, you know,

they, we would sit, you know, 300, 400, yards away and they'd have spot and scopes and all, you know, all those guys are like drinking beer and like,

oh, look at there. Here comes. Oh, here comes that buck I wanted to catch. Here he comes. And they, oh,

yep, right to the corn. Hit the button. Blasted caps go off and the net falls on top of the deer and they go hauling ass over there And they climb on top of these deer the deer are fine there. They just, but they're under a net and they would tag it and then they're like, all right man, we're going to peel this net back. Everybody get f***ing ready. Because that's something, you don't know what the damn deer was going to do. He comes running out from under there. He's going to, he's hauling ass, but you didn't know if he's going to turn and haul. This sounds like an amazing day at work. Why do you leave? I got paid to do it. I mean, you got paid to do it. Somebody's listening to. Somebody's listening to this right now going, I am going to try this net thing. Yeah. No, it was cool. I honestly do not remember,

Dale, why I left. I don't. I remember I went to work. The next question. Yep. So I went to work for Terry Labani on his part-time MW Windows Grand National team. But I, I, that was your next job? It was, yeah. And I do not remember why I left. I don't. I do not remember. Probably because you thought they broke your damn two box and didn't tell you. Well, no. Dude, I made a lot of mistakes in my career. And I never, like, I jumped around from team to team, you know, from working for your dad or the Lbonnies or Hendrick Motorsports or Robert Yates. I just, man, looking back, it's real easy to critique yourself, but I jumped around too much in my career.

And probably, I'd still be at Hendrik Motorsports today if I kept my shit straight, but I never, you know, I just got off another opportunity and I went. So I just, I don't know, I made a lot of mistakes, but one of them was leaving your dad's place in 1992. So how do you, I mean, are you, you're going from these teams, Are you, like, looking at the cup garage going, that's my goal. I want to get there. Because when I grew up in Maine, right?

So we'd always work November, December, getting cars ready all the time. And I remember the Daytona 500 was on. I was working for Kelly Moore. It's in February. And we're working on the race car. And I'm looking outside and knowing that they're racing in Daytona and it's snowing. It's a blizzard, right? And I'm like, what, I've got to get the hell out of here, you know?

So one thing led to another. But of course, everyone's dream is to go to the Cup Series, and that was mine as well. And, you know, I worked for Terry Labani on his MW Windows car, and we had won a bunch of races. And, you know, Bob was still building gears and transmissions for Junior Johnson, so Bob kind of let me run the team. Yeah. So had a lot of more responsibility. Maybe that's why I left. I don't remember.

But just working for Bob was tough. I mean, keep in mind, I came from Scott Houston, Steve Bird, Tony Sr. I mean, I had some really, really smart people that were very strict, too, right? And then I went to Bob Labani like, holy shit, this is like culture shock. Because, I mean, there was days where he was downright mean. And he didn't care who it was. But, I mean, he was there to win races, and you better not make a mistake. So definitely learned a lot from Bob.

I heard so many stories about him. Not stories, but I heard the same comments about Bob how he was just, he was stern and strict. It was Bob's way. Yeah. And so, you know, like, I know that, you know, what are some examples of, I mean, he sounds intimidating. I thought Tony Sr. was terrifying at times, you know, but I'm, you know, you had a, you had a different relationship with Tony Sr. being a little bit older and so forth. Right. He scared to shit out of me. I didn't know whether he was coming over to chew my ass or what. And Bob was funny.

Bob sounds similar. Every time, this is, this is, you could talk to anybody that worked for Bob. Like, anytime we. getting ready to go in the van to drive to a racetrack, I would always drive, or David McGeehee would would always drive, one of us. But whenever Bob got in the passenger seat, no one dared sit in a passenger seat, because that's where Bob sat. But when Bob got in, if he crossed his legs and looked to his right out the window, we knew we were screwed. Like, he was pissed about something, and it was going to be a miserable ride. And if he got in and crossed his leg to the left and look left, it was going to be a damn good time, right? And that's how you structured your trip by the first 30 seconds of how Bob sat in that seat.

Damn. But, you know, keep in mind, Bob was getting older, right? And he had two kids that were racing. He was working every day at Junior Johnson's and coming back to our place. And if we didn't have things done to his level or to the point where he thought they should be, I mean, he was vocal and he would get after you. But he had one rule that a lot of people had a hard time understanding, and I did as well. But, you know, you build a new car or work on a race car and you'd set your wrench on the floorboard

or you set it on the dash or you set it on the roof of the car while you're working on it. Well, that would piss Bob off. And he always had a mentality of, well, Terry and Bob, Bobby paid for brand new cars. And why would you want to disrespect them by putting your tools and scratching the pain or whatever? So if you didn't listen, like he warned you a couple times. And if you didn't listen over the course of the day, he would take your tools. And he would take him and go set him on the roof of your car out in the parking lot. And that was just his Bob's way of like, hey, look, I told you once.

You didn't understand or you didn't listen. So during the day, you're trying to find a 716 rent. couldn't find you thought someone stole it right and you find out at seven o'clock a night when you leave it's laying on the roof of your truck because that's just the way bob way you know bob's way so little stuff like that meant a lot so what what's uh how do you get the opportunity to go cup racing yeah so like i said things were going really really well at labonnie's and we're having a good time terry was winning a bunch of races that year i think we won four or five races that year and uh gary de hart and d uh andy graves called me and gave me an opportunity to come to hendron motorsports

and I accepted a position. Is Terry driving for them? Terry's driving. It's just going on his second year. Yeah. And I remember telling Terry and Bob that I was leaving to go to Hendrick Motorsports. What's your position at Hendrick? A tire person, tire specials.

Tire specials. On what car? On Terry's car. Yep. So you're like, hey, Terry, guess what? I thought it was a win-win, right? But I was grossly mistaken. I mean, they were pissed.

Really? Even Terry? Terry and Bob were both pissed that I was leaving their organization. Was it at the end of the year? year, middle of the year. End of the year. Yep. And they were, they were mad that I was leaving to, you know, because things were going

really, really well. I can't see Terry mad. Yeah. And Terry's way, he was pissed. Well, I can't see either Labani kid. I mean, like, y'all are describing Bob. You're describing Bob, and it's like, wow, the kids seem so chill. Yeah.

But I guess you've seen gears in them. They probably have moments, right? Yeah. We all see a lot behind different doors, right? Yeah. But definitely, they were mad at me, and, you know, I ended up going to Hendrick Motorsports, because I wanted to get to the Cup Series, and it was a great opportunity. Terry was winning races with them, and I mean, who in hell does want to work for Rick, right?

So it was a great opportunity, and I took that position. Did you smooth things over with Terry? It took a while, but, you know, there was times where, you know, we won races together, won championships, where you could always tell that he always had that chip on his shoulder. At least I felt he did. He never, after that, when I left, he never really told me that he was, you know, still had hard feelings, but I just never felt as comfortable. as I did with him when we were winning races in the Xfinity Series.

Yeah. Good heavens. You all ended up winning a championship, though. We did, yeah, 96. We won a championship, you know, and that was a hell of a team that we had. You know, Richie Gilmore, Andy Graves, myself, Bummi, who works here. We had one hell of a team that we worked hard, partied hard. We drank all that beer that we talked about.

I'm sure you did. We were definitely misfits at Hendrick Motorsports. We learned something about you. I didn't know you were related to Bummi through marriage. Like he's your brother-in-law? He is, yeah. And we're talking about Mike Bumgarner. who has been at junior motor sport for a long time.

Yeah, so Bummi in 96, we needed a tire person. I was moving up a little bit, so we needed a tire person. So we convinced Mike, who I think it was at Bernstein's working, to come work for us. And keep in mind, Mike, he was one of these people. He's kind of quiet now, but back then when we got him, like he didn't say boo, he didn't cuss, he didn't smoke, he didn't drink. And after a year with us, he was dropping F-bombs and saying shit,

smoking cigarettes and drinking beer. Yeah, I mean, we definitely. We definitely corrupted him in the right way, but gave him a blind date, set him up in a blind date with my sister-in-law. And the first time he never showed up, he got scared and showed up and said, oh, she's too good for me. And then the second time, he finally showed up. And yeah, Bummy's been in the family ever since. So good dude. He lives literally a half mile from me.

And we drink beer a lot, but we hardly ever talk about motorsports. That's interesting. Yeah, we try to like that line, you know, because racing will consume you. if you let it, right? And there's times where you just need to let loose and have a good time. And our relationship with Mike and myself is really genuine. And we talked a lot about family stuff more so than racing. So why did you, if you're doing, what happens at Hendrick if everything's going so well?

Yeah, so, you know, we were winning races, winning championships. And Andy had left. I think he went to go work on the 25 car, I think, Andy Graves. And Gary and myself, just, we didn't get. along. I mean, Andy was the glue that kept the team together. Gary DeHart? Yeah, Gary DeHart. Andy was the glue that kept that team together. At least we all thought that. And then when Andy left to go do the 25 car, I think it's where he went. I don't know, Gary and I never hit it off. I was the car chief. And for some reason, they pulled me in the office one day.

And I'll never forget it. I didn't see it coming. Gary DeHart's sitting there, Mike Powell, who was the parts man. And they drugged me in there. And Gary said, I don't need you no more. The parts man. Why the parts man? Right. Just someone to watch, I guess, you know, witness. Oh, my God. Partsman slash HR or something.

I don't like, what was weird? I had to witness. But, yeah, Gary Sabin, I don't need you no more. And I didn't know why, you know. That had to been pretty damn tough. It was, you know, because we had just won a championship. And then next year later, things are going good. Went to Daytona, run good.

And then halfway during the season, you know, Gary just, I never asked Gary why. Yeah. You still have it. You know, I see Gary at the banquet. it and, you know, different things. Gary's doing some antique and things like that. And I see him and we talk just like we are now, but just never just. I'm more curious about what Terry's response was to that.

I mean, you said that you guys were never really the same, but it took a while. I'm assuming a championship heals all wounds? You would think so. Okay. Did you and Terry have a conversation? No, never did, really. I was just out, you know, and it's just like, well, you know, I was appreciative for the opportunity they gave me.

And, you know, a young kid from Maine just won a championship. How can I, you know, and gave me a good opportunity, and I just made the best of it. But, you know, after that happened, I was like, what am I going to do now? You walked out of the door at Hendrick Motorsports, and you're standing there, and you pulled in that morning, wanted, employed, going back to your job that you went to every day, and you walked out of that building to get in your truck and knew that you weren't going to come back. Who did you call? I mean, I imagine you didn't have like an answer.

You didn't have a solution right away, but what was the? What were your first steps to sort of figure out what you were going to do? Yeah, it didn't take long for news to spread, and Todd Parrott called me. Really? Yeah, and I went to work for Robert Yates, you know. Right after that. Yeah, it wasn't long after that. Yeah.

What did they hire you for? Car chief. For which one? I was on the 88. Dale Jarrett? Yeah, with Dale Jarrett. Yeah, so, yeah. So, I don't know.

I work for Robert three different times. So like I said, I've been a lot of bad decisions in my life when it comes to career choices. I was very easily peer pressure. Like, hey, come work for me. And where I should have been more loyal, I just never really, at that time, wasn't a very loyal person. And when I got to Hendrick, I thought, like, this is it, man. This is where I'm going to be the rest of my life.

And maybe some things I said, I don't, like I said, it just didn't end right. That was a year, though, in 97, you worked with David Blair Motorsports, which was a team. It was like a satellite Yates team, I'm assuming. It was. And they had Rick Wilson driving a car and Kenny Erwin? Yeah, so basically with Robert, we did the associate deal with David Blair Motorsports where we prepared cars for Kenny Irwin Jr.

And I was a crew chief. So we had five races. He was sponsored by Tonker Toys. I remember that car. Yeah, it was pretty cool. So Kenny was getting this sort of, I get sent over by dad to go over to Charlotte Motor Speedway and do the fast track driving school. And Andy Hillenberg had that school.

And I'm there. and Kenny Irwin's there. We're there together. It's like three days. We're going to drive the shit out of these cars as hard as we can. They ended up putting me and Kenny out on the track by ourselves because we were so different than the rest of the people there that day that were just fans and whatnot.

And I remember middle of this whole thing. I'd heard about Kenny. I think maybe on Thursday Night Thunder or whatever was still going on. He was a sprint car racer, right? Midget racer. And so I'd heard about him. midway through the it's just me and him and

the typical class right doctors and lawyers and you know a couple wannabe race car drivers and me and Kenny I was like still in my street stock car just getting ready to go into a late model car in 93 and so 94ish

so Jeff Gordon walks up and now and so I'm like I'm like oh damn Jeff Gordon what's he doing here he comes up and starts talking to Kenny. Him and Kenny, Jeff Gordon was like sort of, you know,

how on Kenny Irwin and his abilities. And there was this sort of deep-rooted industry effort to sort of, you know, we, you know, work Kenny into the NASCAR, you know, industry and the NASCAR family. And you were sort of part of that process. And he ends up going to drive for this team to get acclimated to stock cars, right? Kenny was driving in a truck series. And then we ended up doing. five races with him so we did a lot of testing.

He sat on a pole or something at Richmond or outside pole? Outside pole. Bill Elliott was. Yeah. Billy beat us. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

And going to. Sorry. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but that's, I mean, it's a great memory because it's only one I won't forget. He's doing these moments like that. You're like, oh, damn, here comes another Jeff Gordon. Just what we need.

You know, because I'm an Earnhardt fan, right? I'm like, we don't need any new hot shoes in here. One's enough. Kenny was special, man. He drove the hell out of a race car. And we qualified outside pole at Richmond, qualified third at Martinsville. I mean, the kid was just a superstar for sure,

and I enjoyed working with him. And so he's driving that car, and are y'all running a limited schedule? When is Rick driving the car? Yeah, so that was a deal where David Blair had a team, but they were running every week, but then they had different drivers. What car was that?

27. Oh, that white car, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Were you messing with that car at all? Robert would have me do some races, but they were now on them. but they bought that car and that team from junior Johnson. That's right.

Yeah, that's right. And so that team goes away halfway through the year. They ended up closing up. They did after we got done doing our five races. And then what did you do? So I went back on the 28. Okay. So, but those races with the 27 car, it was neat because like if you weren't doing anything,

you were going to the racetrack. Like there was a 28 and 88 team already in place and everybody was already maxed out. So we were bringing janitors and whoever wanted to go pilots to help on the car. but yeah but a funny story about Kenny when I was this crew chief at Robert Yates on the 28 car we were qualifying in Atlanta and we were like five cars away and I go up you know just to give him a little pep top and Kenny is sitting there holding on the wheel and his hands are shaking like this and I'm like the goddamn hell's going on with this guy you know he's losing it so I stick my head in there and I said man you're all right he goes yeah yeah I'm just building up the

nerve I'm like yeah qualifying stuff I said you'll be fine he said no no I'm building up the nerve that once I hit fourth gear, I'm going to take my left foot and put it on top of my right one so I don't lift. Yeah. And sure enough, he sat on the pole by like two mile an hour. Wow. But he was so nervous, shaking like crazy before you even left to build up the nerve to do it.

I've never heard that. Race car drivers. I mean, they're special. They're head cases on. Yeah, right. Hey, I understand that. I mean, there was nothing more nerve-wracking than qualifying. Right.

Specifically at certain racetracks like Atlanta. Right. racing running that you were never that nervous for the race to start right qualifying was going to be a moment where you got it's close to the edge of the cliff without falling off and all eyes are on you yeah and you're out there alone yeah it was pretty pretty pretty tough so um you're working on his car during his rookie year yes you remember the martinsville deal with stewart where he throw where tony gets wrecked yes yes so do you does do you remember kenny talking about the there was a bit of a There was this sort of weird competition between them because they were both coming in from sort of the same discipline, both being, you know, championed as like these next great things.

And they were sort of arguing over the spotlight, if you will. And I don't know if Kenny took it as serious as Tony did, but Tony seemed to, at least that day, Tony was really ticked off. Do you remember managing that situation? No, I was more worried about the race car getting wrecked than anything else, you know. Yeah. I remember watching the replays of it, you know. Yeah, now that you mentioned it, I had forgotten all about that. That's right.

There was a little rivalry. There was a little rivalry. It just kind of came and went. Yeah. I think, I don't know. I have my own opinions about it. So what kind of driver was Kenny? Wide open.

I mean, we had to pull the reins back. I mean, he was simply just 100% all the time. And there was times and place you could do that, but some tracks you couldn't. And that was probably his biggest change was, you know, come from a truck series where you can just drive the hell out of them, right? and now you come into the Cup Series. And, you know, we took him when he was doing the 27 car, we took him to Martinsville, Richmond.

A lot of places that you had to be really finesse, right? And that was not the type place. How do you teach somebody finesse if they're just wide open? Just took time, right? And counseling and talking to them and just showing them, like, look, you're killing your tires for no reason. And we did a couple tests, and just finally, he finally figured that out that you can't drive it like a truck

or you can't drive it like a midget car. And just a lot of time and testing and a lot of fun. frustration looking at data, but testing was not good for us whenever we went with Kenny because it was learning, right? And teaching him, but when he went back to the race, he acclimated it very, very well. Yeah, that is an interesting thing

that I still think is true today where our drivers come out of the trucks or the Xfinity series to go into the Cup series and you, where in the truck or the Xfinity car, shorter races, limited on tires, got to race hard all the time. you literally do race the same way from lap one to the end. It's go, go, go, go.

And in the cup, you'll take a cup car at the same racetrack and a 400 or 500-mileer, you switch it on and off. You know, you pick and choose when you go and when you don't. And the car and the driver itself can't be that, you know, that perfect to run full on, you know, without hitting something. Yeah. You know, and sometimes it takes some of our driver. drivers years to figure that out, right? You see the different

between Lugano and William Byron and how they took them for years to really kind of put it all together. It's not easy. It ain't. It ain't easy. It's such a unique discipline. What do you think was, you know, is that pretty much back then, is that what happened to Kenny? Is like he didn't get that opportunity of those four years or whatever he needed to

sort of develop to where he could put those races together week in and week out? Well, going back, you know, I became his crew chief in Atlanta, which is like the fourth race of the year. And I was, I was the car chief on Dale Jarrett's car at the time. They moved you over. They moved me over. So literally that Tuesday morning before Atlanta, Robert come up and said, hey, man, I'm going to make you crew chief. Who was the crew chief? Mark Reno. And where'd Mark go? I don't know. I mean, yeah. Again, I don't know. Mark Reno is a badass. Totally. You know, and I'm thinking like, what the hell do you

wrong? But sometimes, sometimes things don't click. Mark Reno doesn't come across to me as the kind of guy that would work for anyone but himself. Correct. Or Vince. Yeah. He's still kind of working for himself. And he could build a car by himself. On his own, right?

Yeah, 100%. But, yeah, I don't know if Robert thought that the relationship that Kenny and I had from the five races because we hit it off okay. I think that might have been some of it. But yeah, that Tuesday morning of Atlanta, Robert said, hey, you're going to be crew chief for the 28 and went to work on that. But funny story was we were flying to Atlanta. And again, I was the car chief for the 88, and I was changing front tires for the 88.

and we're flying to Atlanta and I looked at Todd about halfway through and I said, who's going to change tires for you? He goes, what do you mean? I said, well, who's changing tires on the 88? He goes, we haven't talked about that. So we land, Robert's on the other airplane. We had two king airs.

So we land and, hey, Robert, we got a problem. He's like, what's up, man? Who's changing tires on the 88 this week? Well, you are. I said, well, I'm the crew chief, Robert, you just made me crew chief. Well, you can do both. He said, you can change tires. And he said, I'll just sit on the pit box.

And until we find someone to change tires on 88, we'll make you, you know, you can change tires. So no shit's crazy stuff. So the 88's in Pistall 29 and the 28 is in Pistall 2. Oh, damn. So there's no way that I could do it, right? So I'm on the radio with Robert back and forth. And that was the race where Kenny we had led like 189 laps or something like that. We dominated the race.

and Dale Jarrett was running second. It was the 288th the whole time. So I'm changing tire. My car's leading. Changing tires on the car running second. Total shit show, you know. And Kevin's embarrassed. He's the front tire carrier and he's like, he's tugging on me.

I know what you're going to do. You're going to eff up this stop. And you know what? Sabotage. Yeah. He's like, don't you eff this up, man. I know what you're doing. That's hilarious.

Yeah. So it came down to. You were going to Victor Lane either way. Yeah, right. So actually we didn't that day. So what it happened was, we had to pit him to green. It's the way the race was going.

We were all short on gas. And I told Robert, I said, man, I want to be the first one on pit road. The first one on pit road is going to win the race. And he said, no, no, yellow's going to come out. So we argued back and forth. Well, damn, Maycar and the 18 team, they came down pit road,

and they were the first ones on new tires, basically. Cycle past you. Yep. And they cycled past us that had won the race. I think we finished third. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I'm probably one of the few people that's been a crew chief on one car

and pit on another. I've never heard it. Yeah, that was, that was. It was definitely crazy times for sure, trying to make all that happen, let alone be your first race as a crew chief. You stayed at Yates till 2000, all right, and your things are going well, I suppose. Why do you want to leave and go to DEI? Yeah, so what happened with Kenny was we had missed the Coke 600, and they had the wrong rev limiter chip in, and the rev limiter was going off halfway down the backstretch.

that happened? It was mismarked. Oh, yeah. But anyway, long story short on that, but it did. That's your fault. Yep, 100%. I wear the target we talked about, right? So like, there's no way, even though you... One of those things, you wear the target, right? So when you're the crew chief, but wheel falls off, you're suspended, right? I mean, you get how it goes. So, but

Texaco people were very, very pissed that we missed the show, and I get it, right? We were like ninth or ten points. What did y'all change this chip right before? Qualifying, yeah, you always pick up RPM, as you know, and not. So you put a different tippin on my God. Yep, yep. So anyway, Rev Limiter went off. We missed the show. How do y'all miss the show?

I mean, the car wasn't. You had to have the provisional or nothing? We were like 9th in points, and we missed it, believe it or not. But yeah, so it was probably, I don't know, it was probably four months later. Rookie battles, you know, you weren't doing very well. Rookie struggles, and next thing you know, I was out of the 28. Did Robert and them come and tell you that you're losing your job? Yep, so we're going to make a change.

And you're out. I'm out. Once again. I was like, shit, how'd this happen? So I got released by Rick Hendrick, you know, or Dee Hart, and then now I got released by Robert, and I was like, damn, what the hell? What's the guy I got to do? So it's one of those things. How do you handle it?

Are you, I understand, grab your stuff and walk out? Did you stop your foot? No, I knew something was up. I knew something was up because I walked in. I usually get there 6 o'clock in the morning, and Robert, and it was never there that early. You know, he was always in the engine shop. And the shop was pitch dark, and I could see my office, the light was on. And when I walked in, Robert was going through my notes.

Oh, that's a good indicator. Yeah, yeah. I walked in my office and I said, hey, man, what's up? And he goes, hey, we need to talk. And I said, yeah, I think I know why, you know? And sure enough, then he said, we're going to make a change, getting pressure from the sponsors. And you know how it is. It's performance business.

And that damn old target, right? Yeah. You wear the shirt. How soon after the missing the race did that happen? Like three or four months. Oh, wow. Yeah, just three or four months. But we had struggled, you know, it's just no different than when Mark was with Kenny, right?

Kenny was having a hard time adapting. And we were hoping that, or I guess they were hoping that I could find something in Kenny that, you know, wasn't there at the time. so yeah it didn't go good and Kenny you know obviously he he left Robert Yates to go Felix's after a while so so where'd you go? Oh, I forget. What year was that? 2000. Yeah, so.

You would end up at DEI in the middle of 01. So I actually went back to work at Rick Hendrick Motorsports on a 25 car with Tony Fur. Okay. Yep, I was his car chief and Tony and I. Good guy. We had fun talking to him here. Tony and Rodney Combs, they were kind of like Tony was, a crew chief from Rodney who's like to shop for him.

The Rodney Combs. The dirt racing. Yeah, the son. The son. The son. The son. Junior. So they were there.

And I worked there for one year. And just wasn't me. I don't know what it was, but I just wasn't me. And then Robert's calling me like, hey, come back to work. What part wasn't you? Is it just Tony Fur? Is it the, I mean, you've been at the Hendrick Foltz. I understand how Hendrick has its own culture and its own brand.

But what? I guess for me, I'm a Yankee, and I'm just used to bust in my ass all day long and working hard, right? And just putting in the effort. And if I saw others not doing that, it would bother me. And there was some people at that time at that team that I thought weren't putting in the same effort. And just I couldn't say nothing about it. So it was just best for me to go my own way.

So I left. You didn't speak your mind? No. But that was the problem. Because that was the problem for me speaking my mind. You didn't have an outlet. So I just said, you know what? That's when Rick was going through all this cancer and things like that.

And I went to Rick's house and had a meeting with. with them and just decided it was time for me to do something different. Yeah. Yeah. So you end up at DEI mid-season? 2001, yeah. So I was back at work at Roberts and then Ty Norris. You went back to Robert Yates? Yeah, I worked here three times. So you just got released months ago.

Yeah. You go, what do you do? Go back up to Robert and say, hey, man, I need the job. Yeah, just one of those things. Robert called and said, hey, man, he just come back to work for me. So I went back to work for Robert. So, yeah. He called you.

Yeah. What the hell? What a weird thing. Yes. I mean, I want to ask Robert. Like, hey, man, you know, you cut him loose and then you call him back and hire him up again. Yeah, like I said, I worked for Robert three years. Never, never once had a bad word with Robert.

Right. Always good terms. Like Doug and I still talk. Everything is. Right. So then I would have to assume when you did let go that you manage, you handled that with class as a professional because he wouldn't have reached out to you months later. Well, it proved to me that it was a sponsor making a call.

That's right. It wasn't personal. It wasn't Robert. That's what I could. Did you hesitate, though? Aren't you like still a little bit of a chip on, yeah, that and a chip on your shoulder. Like, hey, man, I wasn't wanted. But the garage is too small.

You know, I've learned that if you piss people off, they don't forget it, right? So with Robert, I just and Doug, I've always had a good relationship with them and tried to keep it clean. So even like when I left Hendrick Motorsports with Gary DeHart, it's like decisions made already, no matter what I do or say, it's not going to change it, right? So you just take your licks and move on. What did they hire you to do the third time? Car Chief on 88. Yeah.

Back to Car Chief. You're like crew chief car chief. And that's what's tough. That's tough. Power changer. Yeah, yeah, right. But yeah, getting back to D.E.I. 2001, Ty Norris calls me up and said, hey, man, I want you to come work, you know, for Michael.

In the middle of the season. Yeah, that's when Steve, Steve was the crew chief at the time because Eggleston started and I think Steve took over and then they wanted me to come in. So I thought about it for a little bit and I was like, well, let's give this crew chief shot again, you know, give another shot. So I told Robert and Doug, like, look, man, I'm sorry, but I want to go be a crew chief and there's nothing here for me. So I said, I'm going to go do this. So, yeah, that Monday morning, I went to work at DEI, and, you know, they brought me in,

met everybody, and I just, I asked everybody, I said, look, I said, here's what I need. I said, Michael's our guy. I'm the crew chief. You all line up behind me. If you all line up behind me, we're all in this together. If you don't want to line up for what we're doing, if you have a contractor, you want to leave, now's your chance. Yeah.

And everybody stood in line, and we went to work. work. Help set the table here, though, because I think 2001, I had forgotten about the Eggelson was the crew chief. Michael wins the Daytona 500, albeit with, you know,

tragedy. And now DEI is without its leader. So, I don't, how long did Eggleson even hang around? Yeah, 30 years. Yeah, 30 years. It wasn't long. Wow. That's interesting, too, because I didn't think about it. I didn't think about it. I,

I've always just looked at you and thought all of the blue 15 years, it was you, right? But you weren't there in 01 at Daytona? When all that went down and how that affected Michael, you weren't there in that moment. You came in after all that guy was getting placed and pieced back together, right? Yeah. And it was a team in shambles, you know, because Steve was trying to do his job up on the hill. Yeah, Steve was the competition director and was a fit, you know, just subbing till they found who the crew chief would be,

which he would do that for me as well. So you get placed in there as the crew chief, and I remember you being there a really long time, some good stability. This is interesting to me now because up until this point, you had kind of been like bouncing from this to that, to the other and this opportunity and losing this job, getting this job back, bam, bam, bam.

Now, the longest tenure that you, you that you have to this point is down with Michael. It is. What was it about him that you never want, what was it about Michael or that job or that role that made you never walk out the door and go somewhere else? Right. Because I'm certain that you, you know, you seem to have, you seem to have the, you know,

the ability to say, you know what, I'm going to go to do something different. Right. And you would do it. You didn't even think, you know, twice about it. So what made you stick around so long? Well, for one, I was excited to go back to work at DEI. You know, we talked about all the great things that with your dad and everything, and then just for that opportunity to go back.

Was it still the same? It was definitely different, for sure, 100% different. And, you know, all the tools that were in place at DEI, you know, I came from Robert Yates Racing and Hendon Motorsports and what your dad had built at DEI. They had everything they needed to be successful, and I had that opportunity with Michael. And, you know, one thing we talked about with the guys was like, you know, Michael is a guy not known for running competitively every week, you know, and if we can win races with Michael and run competitive, I said it's going to bring all of our stock up together. So if we all believe in Michael, because he's got the sponsor and he's a driver and we can be successful together, we're all going to have benefits. So basically walked in the door and just had a meeting with everybody. And I didn't come in and start cutting front clips off and changing everything. We kind of just understood what they had and went to work. At DEI, Dad had built this big giant shop.

But in that big giant shop was the one car and the eight. The 15 was in the old A.C. Delco bus shop about, you know, 300 yards down the road. Even in that scenario, y'all were somewhat on an island, you know. And that might have been actually nice, right? Because you're down there, you don't, you know, you basically had more freedom, I suppose, to be creative and however, you know, make decisions without worrying about, you know, what was going on up to the big house. It's like I had my own race team.

Yeah. I was just a half mile away from the big house and I had my own race team. But it was funny because Jay Ganeer, you remember Jay, he always had an air horn on his toolbox. So every time I would walk into the eight shop, they would blow this air horn. They'd start covering cars because they never wanted me to say. Yeah, it was competitive as hell. So when Fred Gray's worked for me, Andy's dad, I had Fred hijacked a gate code, and I turned off access to everybody on the 8 team,

so they couldn't get to our shop. Yeah. It was that competitive amongst us, because we knew when we went to Daytona and Talladega, somebody on Highway 3 was bringing home a trophy. And it was that competitive. What was your relationship with the URIs starting out? Like I'm asking, before you even came to DEI, where you, I'm sure you guys knew each other. Yeah, still good.

Everything was great. We raced against each other. You know. Okay. And so then when you get to DEI, and it's so. competitive, was there any tension between you and the Uri's? I don't, we were good friends. We always had good times and always talk, but I think like if we came up with a, um, a spring or a shock or something, it wasn't like we drove up,

drove up to the shop and said, hey, we got this, you know. Yeah. So, I mean, we came up with a spring, Voltland Springs out of Germany. They built us a spring. It was $4,000, you know, and we had an advantage. We took that to, uh, in 2002, we took it to Homestead and finished second with Michael simply because of that technology. You know, and in today's world, you have to share that with your teammate. And back then we didn't. You know, so there was a lot of, when it come to Speedway Racing, it was definitely, they had their, they didn't want to show me all their stuff.

And Tony and them did the same, man. Oh, absolutely. You know, they would have things and, like you say, they'd cover the cars up. I remember going to the, going to Daytona and Talladega, and when we would, it was a, it was a, it was a race amongst ourselves. to get everything going to be able to... So you know more about this than I do, but from my perspective, the first time our cars came down pit road,

all of us were taking rounds out of the back, right? There was a way you went through tech before the race and another way you went through tech after the race. You were allowed a half-inch tolerance. Yep. And so you'd start the race on the high side of that, and they were going to end the race right on the border line. And a lot of teams weren't aggressive,

with that, right? But you were really aggressive with it, and Tony Sr. and them were too, if not in spite of you, right, or two-spite you. There was a, seriously, man, when we, when y'all would beat us at, so when me and micro, it's the weirdest thing, when me and Mike were out on the track,

we're like, hey, man, I'm gonna help you, you help me, we're working together, yeah, we raced like, we raced like very good friends. you did um and then but the teams are in the pits going we got to do more than they're doing we got to pull more rounds out and they're pulling out with it there and there was a there was a grumble of you know tony senior would be like oh you know they got they did this and they were they figured let's put on 82 and i'd come on 81 you know just like yeah back then it was crazy but but we knew like it was either going to be one or the other also him you know so is so we were sitting there

you guys won the Firecracker race in 2003 or 2002. Okay, 2002. We're racing along. It's coming down to the end. There's like 10 laps to go. I'm running second to Michael and I've got Rusty Wallace behind me. So he's the, he, if I move to go around Michael, Rusty is absolutely not coming with me because he's the other beer car. Rusty was absolutely never going to help the other beer car. And that's fine, you know, but I knew that while I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, and I, but I can hear. not literally, Tony Senior's not literally telling me this, but I can hear them go, your ass better try something. We're not going to follow Michael across the finish line. And I'm like, you know,

there are many times where Michael had followed me across the finish line. You know, I'm sure he tried, but he didn't cost himself a good finish or me, right? And there were times when we'd go across finish line and it was me and him, and he was fine with it.

He's like, hey, it's just way it went today. and I'm sitting there going, I got to try something. I pulled out of the line, like, two or three to go, and nobody went, and I ended up, like, fall into the back of our little six-car draft, and I was like, what hell am I supposed to do? And I'm thinking, like, hey, man, I can get out

and say to Tony, I f***ed, man. But then when I saw Michael, I could, he's like, what are you doing? Why did you try to pass me? Right. I freaking help you all the time, there you are trying to go around me. And I was like, yeah, that was not,

and that was not a character. You say Tony Sr. didn't literally say it. I think he literally did. He might have. I remember a radio transmission he did. Where you were really confused on what to do. I don't know if y'all were in a red flag or if he was just under caution. And he goes, we got a whole team of people down here.

It says you need to try something. That's right. Or you need to go pull out and do something. He absolutely. You were heavily influenced. Yes. Yeah. I was sitting there going, I think I should sit here, but I don't know, you know, I don't

have any help behind me? He played the team card, which makes total sense based off of what you guys are saying, right? It was that competitive. It was. I'm glad you did what you did because I won my first race as a cup crew chief, so thanks, man. No, wait a second. I don't think guys going around either way. It was tough. Go back, though, to 2001, though, because that was the firecracker race in 2003, but this one is 2001. You're the crew chief by this time? No, no. Okay, so this was still Steve. Yeah, okay. All right. All right. Yeah, so, I mean, it was, I just remember the, I I remember the teams didn't, they worked together to a point when there was real, you know, real speed advantage and so forth.

They absolutely kept those from each other if possible, which was. We were so competitive, but we would learn, like, I would learn from Bono, who worked on the one car, what the eight was doing, right? And then Bono would tell the eight guys what we were doing on the 15. So, I mean, it was super competitive. Like, you'd go into body shop at night when his car was in the body shop. getting Bondo work done. I mean, hell, the car that I won the 2003 Daytona 500,

it was built at the Fab Shop, but we did so much to it in our shop. You know, it's got three noses on it and two roofs, you know, but that wasn't done up at the shop because we didn't want no one to know. But, I mean, that's the type of thing that you do. Like, we actually put padlocks on the doors where we did all this work because we didn't want nobody

finding out. Can you guys get away with this if DEI has its leader and isn't in a little bit of a disarray. I mean, like, is this a normal thing, is what I'm trying to understand? I loved how we pushed each other, man. It was very normal. That was absolutely no different than any other team. We've had, you know, we've had other teams, other people involved in other teams,

the Craniffa Sauce deal with, you know, Jeremy Mayfield and Rusty Wallace and, you know, all those, every, the dad and Skinner team, I mean, they all competed. But, man, we pushed each other so hard. Like Tony Jr. and myself, I just had to be. a different way. Like I, if I wanted to do something, I'd look in the rulebook and try to find my way through it where other people were more methodical and like, well, we can't do that. I'm like, screw that. We're doing it. But man, it was battle for the competitors because Tony Jr. and myself going against each other made us so much more competitive. We just grew together.

But, you know, there was things that we did that they didn't know about. And I'm sure there's a shitload of stuff they did that we didn't know about. But is that a realization in the moment? Or is that a realization in hindsight that you guys were actually good for each other? Oh, I knew. I knew. Y'all, do you think he did? Do you think that he appreciated how you guys were so competitive that it was making you both better? I do. I really do. I really do. Because we laughed and kid and... Y'all did.

Yeah, but we got along good. Hell, we had a party at my house. I don't know if you remember this. 2003 after Bristol, we raised Bristol Saturday night. We had a party at my house on Sunday. And I told my wife, I said, we're going to do something for the 15 guys, and we're going to rent some bouncy house for the kids to jump in and go swim and have cookout and stuff. So anyway, I didn't tell my wife, but 250 people showed up, right? So we had this big part. I told Tony June and everybody. So I got home from Bristol like at 2 o'clock in the morning.

My brother-in-law, Tommy Wheeler, I don't know if you know him. He's in motorsports, but he's cooking, barbecue and all this stuff. So, like, I get home, and it's wide open party time. And I bet you don't remember this, but it was probably about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. Keep in mind, we're supposed to have 25 to 50 people over, and there's 250 people show up. We ran out of beer. And you were there. Park was there, everybody was there.

I'm like, Dale Jr. We got a problem. No problem, man, I got this. You called somebody. And 30 minutes later, a Budweiser truck backs down the driver. I guarantee it. No, it's like, this is so effing cool, you know? I don't remember that.

But no, you don't remember it. Yeah. I bet you don't remember it, but I bet you know that how possible that was. I mean, you could just call up the beer truck. I mean, you probably called Joe Glenn or somebody. But my point was everybody that worked at DEI was there from the 8 to 1 to 15. We all got along, had a good time and, you know, had a big party. had, and I had rented this stage to go up in the backyard. My wife didn't know about this either.

So Sunday morning, we rented this stage. This guy pulls up an attracted trailer to put this stage up in the backyard. Well, hell, there was a tree in the way. Well, that damn, we had to cut tree down. Oh, yeah. And we had a live band playing, but I mean, it was a good time. But yeah, you were pretty drunk that day. You probably don't remember. Oh, that's not a unique situation. I'm sure. We're all there with you. Trust me. But no, we all got along really good. I thought so. Like, I don't think there was ever, like, screw him. He's an ass shit. I don't think I've never. Like, I always had that respect for Pops and Junior to keep it, you know, we race against each other. And we're friends during the week and enemies on race day.

When they throw the checkered flag, that's the mentality I have, man, from checkered flag, you know, from green flag to checkered flag, I didn't care about anybody about myself and winning the race because that's what I was paid to do. So, um, let's, you know, let's dive into how things fell apart at DEI. I mean, you, you were part of that process where we lose dad. You came, you come in later, but in the same year. teams sort of trying to pull itself together and we're getting relatively competitive. I had a great year in 04.

But, you know, and we, I don't want, I don't have to relive all of the reasons why me and the Uri's fell apart. It was stupid and it was my fault. But at the end of 04, I'm thinking, man, I can do better. And these guys are ass-a-hs and I'm going to go, I'm going to, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm doing something different. And so the idea, I believe. that you have is that we were going to be put together.

Is that what, I mean, when do you find this out? When are you learning about all of this? So I just want to touch on something before we do that. So prior to, I was crew chief from Michael and then Charlotte Race, I got released and they put Peter Rondo as crew chief. At the, before the season. No, no, this is the, before the end of 04. Yeah, no, 05, I think it was.

So I don't know if you remember, you and Michael had gotten together on track at Charlotte. I wrecked Michael. Yeah, that's a big deal. I got pissed and a bunch of stuff happened. Well, anyway, I got released on that Monday morning. They made me competition director and they made Pete Rondo crew chief. But going back a little bit on that, and I don't think you remember this or know this, and neither does Michael.

But I was sitting in my office and got a call and they said, hey, come up here a minute. So I went up there and was up in Richie's office. Steve Chris was up in there and a couple others that we don't need to talk about. But they said, hey, tomorrow morning we need you to fly to Atlanta. We want you to go meet Napa. with people, Mike Reardon and Spence and a couple others. So they said, you got to pick up Dale Jr. And I'm like, what are we going to do?

And they said, well, we're going to introduce who we want to drive the car next year. And I'm thinking, man, Michael, he's a media giant. He wears the Nomex. He represents the brand. I'm like, this is pretty policy. So I'm thinking, there's no way in the hell I'm going to get Dale Jr. to come with me in the morning, you know, because they wanted me to go to your place and pick you up. Yeah.

I didn't get up until noon. Yeah. And I'm like, how the hell am I going to get you? get him in my car and Steve Chris says, man, just go buy McDonald's and get him a couple of chicken biscuits. He'll do anything for that. So I get, I pull in your house. Yeah, it's true. I pull in your house at 630 and there's people everywhere. You had a party all nighter. Oh yeah. And I come pulling in. I'm dressed up and you're like, Slutter what's up? Like totally, you forgot totally that you were going with me. I was picking you up. So I finally called Richie and I said, man,

he ain't coming. I said, he's having too good at times. So we left you there. Yeah, it's crazy. I probably said too much already. No, it's good. It is what it is. So we have this meeting and everything and we go back and we report to the people that we met when Napa and they weren't very receptive and we get back and we have our meeting with our people and tell them how it went everything. And dude, it wasn't two months later. I'm out. That's when the whole after Charlotte thing happened. And I knew Michael was going to find out eventually. And then I think it was probably two days after that meeting my relationship with Michael went downhill. Like he knew that I went to Napa, tried to get him replaced.

With another driver. And I'm like, I didn't know who that driver was when I got on an airplane. Yeah. And I was voluntold to go. So I went there and had a meeting. And our relationship, like two days after that meeting, he found out like that, as he would have, right? And our relationship went downhill. And then things were very, very tense.

Obviously, he got to wreck with you. And then that Monday morning, slugger your competition director. Wait, wait, wait. That's a lot right there, what I mean? There's a lot. All right, so let me ask a couple questions. One, why were y'all bringing Dale Jr.? I mean.

They wanted Dale Jr. to help sell that driver. Just be an Earnhardt. Yep, okay, okay. Because for a second, it's like you all wanted to, you teed it up like Junior might be a driver. That's not obviously going to happen. He's the bud guy. Okay, secondly, when Dale Jr. and Michael wrecked, I thought the URIs were the crew chief. Tony, well, no, I was there.

Did he wreck him twice? Maybe. I don't remember that, but. Don't you remember Tony Jr. Or Tony Senior making such a big spectacle? And I thought that was 05. Yeah. They had Michael and him got together when I was his crew chief at Charlotte.

And the next day I was out. And the next day you were out. Yeah, they made me competition director. So. Yeah. But that whole thing with, go back to Michael. So when your dad passed away, you like you with the Uri's man you're tight you're like glue right you know it he knew everything about you

and you know everything about him and and michael we were successful we had some really good races but there was times where michael went in a lull like didn't know who he was or he wasn't himself right and i never really could put it together never try to didn't want to get personal with him and ask him too many questions like you know what the hell's wrong with you why'd you do that for you you know you just tried to support your driver but i never really knew what was wrong with michael until I went to his premiere in a blink of an eye. Yeah. Dude, during that movie, I cried like a baby.

It put everything together of why Michael struggled on track sometimes. He was grieving. Still, to this day, he still grieves. He 100% is still grieving. He lost his best friend. He lost his wife over it. And his race team, we supported him through thick and thin. But at the end of the day, man, he was driving in grief.

He'd said that. That was tough. Yeah. It never once crossed my mind that he was grieving from your dad passing away, but he would do things and say things that wasn't him. And once I saw that movie, it all came true. And I wish I would have had a better relationship with him to help him through it. It was definitely a tough time.

You and Michael, y'all communicate today? So going back to the airplane ride to the Napa headquarters, I think it strained our relationship. We talk and text, but it's nothing like what it was. was. I mean, we won races together and I'm now probably one of the most successful crew chiefs with Michael, but there's times where you can tell it's strenuous, you know, but I hope me saying that today helps our relationship with Michael because I really missed a guy and, man, I stuck my balls on the line for him a lot, you know, and to have a relationship that's not

like it should be, you know, after all the good times we had together, definitely it bothers me to this day. But, man, Michael getting me my first win as a crew chief. and winning the Daytona 500, you know, just, man, that's stuff that you can't take back from anybody, and it's because of Michael, and I hope one day our relationship gets better. Wouldn't y'all both agree that there was probably a lot of misunderstandings and stuff, you know, during those tumultuous years?

You know, I think everybody took things personal. My other story to that would be, weren't you supposed to be Dale's crew chief at one point when they're having that, you know, well-publicized, team switch, which is your guys. Didn't he take your guys? He did. And weren't you going to be the crew chief?

I know Steve Mill was on here not too long ago. And I think Steve Mill remembers things from his vantage point, but you were going to be the crew chief until you weren't. Right. It was in Pete Rondo. Right. How did that happen? Well, it was very true.

Or actually, how did it not happen? Yeah, right. Exactly. So they had pulled me in the office and said, hey, look, we're going to make a crew chief swap. We're going to put you with Dale Jr. we think it's going to be a great fit. You and how you are, your mentality and what you do and your approach to racing, we think it's going to fit Dale Jr.

And we're going to swap the Uri's to Michael. And they said, do you want to do that? And I'm like, well, hell yeah, I want to be with Dale Jr. Who doesn't, you know? So they said, all right, they said, we haven't talked to the URIs yet. We wanted to make sure you are on board. He said, we're going to talk to the URIs tonight. Just come back here tomorrow and come back here tomorrow and we'll take you up to the H-Shop

and introduce you to everybody. So get back to the next morning. going to the office and they said, hey, we've changed our mind. I was like, what the hell you mean? You know, keep in mind, I went home, told my wife, my kids, told my family, hey, I'm going to be Dale Junior's crew chief tomorrow. I'm so excited, you know. Next morning they said, yeah, we changed our mind.

We're not going to have you be the crew chief. And in fact, you don't have a job here no more. And I went, no, wait a minute. What the hell this happened? You just told me I was going to be crew chief less than 12 hours ago. And now I'm out. And they said, yep, we've had a change of heart. And we don't think you're committed to the program.

And out the door I was. Is that because of that ski trip? So when I became competition director, Richie had told me that, you know, this four weeks of the season left, whatever. And he said, we'll figure out what we're going to do with you. And I said, all right, I'm going to take a vacation and go away at the end of the year. Me and my wife had booked a trip.

We went on vacation. We plan on going on vacation. And then I don't know if me going on vacation was, I mean, who the hell doesn't go on vacation, right? But I just, I don't know if that was the point, but I've never asked Richie because Richie and I are still good friends and we talk a lot, but I never, it's like I don't want to know what, why, you know what I mean? I never asked them, like, what to hell happen?

Yeah. I don't know. And maybe you know what happened. I don't know. All I know is I was your crew chief for 12 hours. Yeah. And it never, ever happened. I don't know if the URI said something to you or the, I don't know.

And part of me wants to know, but the other part doesn't because I felt like you and I could have had a lot of success together but never had that opportunity. But I heard Steve say something to the effect of he went on vacation. And that is the first I've ever heard of me not getting that job because I went on vacation. We should sit down with Richie one day. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. Richie's coming in. Well, I mean, I would. With me and Slugger and Richie. Because I'll be honest with you. I don't know how much I influence. that or I didn't. I really don't. You coming over to the house at, you know, 6.30 in the morning and me being, you know, me being

You being a kid. But I wasn't a kid. Me being 14 hours into a party was, you know, the decisions I was making back then, they weren't good, they weren't good decisions. And I thought I knew what was best for me and I could, I was the last person to make those decisions. And they were, for whatever reason, giving me that influence,

or allowing me to have the influence to say something like, I don't think I need to be with the Uri's anymore. What a dumb, damn thing. You know? That should have never happened. I was surprised. When they told me that they were going to swap teams, I was surprised.

It should have never happened. It should have never been considered. They should have got us in the room and said, y'all get y'all shit together. Right. Well, that was one of the points that Steve Mill. Your dad would have. Yes.

If your dad was there here to take care of that. Steve said, let you say your thing, but nobody tried to talk. you out of that and that you know tie would have like somebody gets get into the truck let's go for a ride and let's talk about this nobody did that yeah you end up going to you know ray everham's let's talk about winning Daytona 500 that I mean that was something positive yeah yeah so it's kind of a weird story I've we won the 500 is rain delayed right so it was rain delayed for like three hours it took forever but man it was it was so great to know that you we all watched the weather on our phones and

everything right we know it's going to rain I'm thinking here Here I am a young kid from Maine about to win the Daytona 500, right? Just no high school education, school of hard knocks, and here I am freaking going to win Daytona 500. So I'm all excited. And as time's passing, we're waiting for the race to get called. And, man, I'm about to throw up. I mean, my nerves are shot, and I'm not feeling good.

I'm just all queashing everything. So anyway, I go in the bathroom, and I'm sitting on the toilet pooping. Got my headset on. You can imagine the cords hanging down. And David Hoots comes on the radio. and says race is official, bring the 15 to victory lane. And here I am on the crapper. You know what I mean?

And that just sums up my life, I guess. That's where you were. Yeah. Sometimes I always end up on the shit. But I'm from Maine. I'm a fighter. I'm not going to give up. That's for sure.

But yeah, so I won a Daytona 500 sit on a shit. That's a hell of a thing. Yeah, right. That's a funny story. But it also, listen, that also won was so prevalent for Michael. I remember those shots. I remember that video of him being able to celebrate a Daytona 500. Yeah.

Clearly not, you know, unable to do that before. But I felt like that was a bit of a healing moment. Yeah. It's a great win. That was good for a lot of people. Yes. For sure. Yep.

So I wanted to ask you about, so you worked with Mayfield and Ray. And, you know, that was right around the time where Jeremy ends up getting kind of, you know, blasted out of the sport for lack of a better way to. explain it. You know, what do you remember about all of that and what, you know, what kind of race car driver was Jeremy at that particular point? Yeah, so I remember a lot about that. You know, Jeremy was, I was new that year. I was his crew chief and just got to learn him and Shana. You know, we hung out at his farm and did a lot of cool things and rode four-wheelers and did all that crazy stuff, shotguns, and did stuff like that. But I've never, we won Michigan on a few miles race with Jeremy. So Jeremy was the type of guy. Like if he thought you were, you were,

screwing the system, he would, he'd find you two more tents, you know. So we had worked on the fuel cell and we knew that we could go, I think, 46 laps where everyone else could go 42. So we knew we knew we're going to win a race on fuel mileage if it came that way. So Jerry was pretty stoked about that, but I never, never, ever had an instance where I felt like he was out of sorts. Yeah. You know, like if he was in a race car and if he was doing things he shouldn't have been doing, I never had that suspicion, you know, and even going to the farm and hanging out with them. I never like, hey, I'll be right back in two minutes, you know, I never saw any of that. So I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a chemist either. So I don't

know any of that, but I can just tell you that I'd never had any suspicion of any file play of any sorts. I wonder, it just seems like to me that there was a, you know, sort of a clash of personalities between him and Ray that, you know, and listening to sitting here talking to Jeremy, he couldn't help himself. He kept like agging on a bad, a situation and continuing to make it worse. And he would get, you know, he'd get been out of shape about a, you know, personnel change or something that was happening within the team and organization. And, you know, Ray would take those reactions from Jeremy and in a frustrating way.

Imagine he would, any one or would. But you end up where? How did you get out of that deal? So I had a three-year contract with Ray, and then... How long had you been there? I worked for Ray for one year. One year. And again, me being from Maine and being bullheaded, it just wasn't me.

You know, when you get up every day and we want to go to work, it makes a difference. And I was driving in Statesville. It was 55 minutes away. I just wasn't happy. Like I said, we won a race on fuel mileage, but still, Kenny Francis was my engineer, great guy. Kenny was the crew chief, and they made me the crew chief just to deal with, with everything and I don't know it just wasn't me and then after a year later I asked ready to get out of my contract and didn't know where I was going and didn't matter that's where

I went so you went back to Yates yeah I know it Dale Jarrett yeah uh Eddie DeHont called me up and said man I'm in a buy I need someone you said you're not working you want to do it's your safety net it's crazy yeah so Doug talked about that a lot you know he said you're you're our go-to guy in the bullpen so I went back to work at Yates uh with Dale Jarrett on the 88 car Todd Parr had just left and took his place. You got suspended four. It was right here, right up the street. Yeah, I was going to say, Yates has always been right up on this corner.

Not always. Not always. That's where they were when I took over. You got suspended four races for an illegal sway bar and you went in and gave your resignation to Robert and he refused it. He did. Yeah. So basically, again, with me and rule books, right, I always kept a rule book with him. It didn't matter if I was on an airplane or at the doctor's office or sit down on toilet.

I always read a rule book, tried to work my way. through and we had found a way to make a rear sway bar do more than what it was supposed to do. Basically made it a torsion bar. So basically being creative, right? I still think that someone threw me under the bus to NASCAR when I got caught with it. But basically, you could, the way we were running it, if you run to say at Richmond back then, you would run an 800 pound spring, you could, with this torsion bar setup we had, you could run a 200 pound right rear spring. And it would just save your rear tire, which, as you know, at Richmond was key. So basically got caught with that.

And I told Robert, you know, because they suspended me and all that crap, and I just wasn't a fan of being suspended. So I tried to quit, and Robert wouldn't let me quit. He said, we're going to get through this together. And just one of those things. But I was always competitive, and I always wanted to do something somebody else wasn't, right? So I wanted to be. We celebrate that here in this room.

Yeah, you know, I went to Smoke a Unix shop in 1992, and I got enamored with the guy. You know, I had a conversation with him and just I was floored, and I just always had that mentality to work harder than somebody else and do things that other people aren't, you know? And I always get pissed when I hear people are doing things. And I'm like, damn, why don't I think of that? Yeah. You know, that's what drives me every day is to be creative.

So I always thought of it as, you know, you were looking, if you carried that rulebook around, you were carrying it around to find a hole in it, not necessarily to outright break a rule that was written in the rule book, but find the rules that weren't written, weren't yet written. You also had an issue as Palm and Archery Chief in a frame rail. I want to know what the method was, what the, what were you trying to, how were you trying to find a good day? Would you go on Jay Ski? Look up my record on fines. We've got a good researcher here. No, yeah, so basically back then is when NASCAR had a gauge, they would check wheelbase and offset off the frame rail.

They had a gauge went in through the door and it measured four points. And if the car was built properly, you could twist the frame rail to get a benefit. Well, this particular car that I had wasn't built to the maximum. of what it could be. And I tried getting the frame rail cut out, and they wouldn't cut it out for me. So basically went on Amazon.com and bought a porterpower tool

that was, I don't know, about eight foot long, went in the frame rail and spread it out until you got to that number. So basically we molested a frame rail. So the frame rail is... It's still straight in the car, but where that gauge sat on, like a piece of one inch tube went through the door,

and where the gauge sat, I simply went in there and spread it out. And so visually, wouldn't you be able to look at that and see it? With a door on, no. So it was hidden in the crush panels. Yeah, it was hidden behind the crush panels. Yeah, and keep in mind, you're only talking like it was probably 60,000s. And that was enough of an advantage?

Well, nowadays, 4,000s is enough of an advantage, Dale. I mean, it's just when everyone is so tight. Yeah, so we finished third with Paul Minardt at Michigan, and they said, we're taking your car to the tech center's random. Okay, whatever. So they take the car to Tech Center and Tuesday morning. Craig smokes out.

He's my car chief and he calls me from the Texaner. I didn't go because I knew, I just knew like if they took the crush panels out, they would probably be suspicious or someone told them. So Craig calls me. He said, man, you need to get here. I'm like, why's that? He said, Darby's pissed.

I'm like, why's Darby pissed for? He said, he saw that frame rail. I said, well, tell him I ain't coming because I'm screwed anyway. He said, get your ass here now. So I drove up there an hour from welcome. And Darby, he's smoking cigarettes like crazy. He is mad as hell. And what is this shi slugger?

And I'm like, dude, you got me. I mean, there's nothing. There's no way. I always tried to, whenever I did something, I always tried to have a way out, right? An excuse or a reason. And what I did was probably one of the most malicious things I ever did that was so freaking stupid. So tiny, you know. But any creature you if you talk to, we'll tell you that they do stuff for the littlest of advantages, you know.

And it was a dumb decision, but it was me. being bullheaded for the fact of the chassis shop wouldn't move that frame rail to bank the car proper. I took it in my own hands. Did it at night. Two people knew about it. One of those things that just, you know, sometimes you got to learn to let things go. And like I told you, at the start of the show, I made some bad decisions in my life, and that was certainly one of them.

But there was, you're trying to get the chassis shop to build this thing different, they won't do it? Well, basically, they build all the cars that way. Well, this one didn't come that way for whatever reason. a mistake and I tried to get them to fix the mistake and they wouldn't they said didn't have time to cut the side off cut the frame or a lot it's a big process so simply I went on Amazon bought a tool and took care of it myself and probably not the best thing you do because most owners will support you in fines if they know about it but when they don't know about it you're stuck paying it yourself so that was 125 out of my pocket wow

125 000 let alone being suspended and I'll tell you dude there is nothing worse money Money means a lot, but there's nothing worse than sitting home being suspended when your friends are racing. I mean, I was the biggest ass ever for those four weeks. I mean, it's so tough because that's what you do, right? You wake up every day to be successful and build winning race cars, do the right strategy, do everything right. And then when you're not there, have that opportunity, you're sitting at home. And that is the biggest kick in the jimmies you'll ever have in your life. Hey, Dirty Mo listeners.

This is Dillon Hart Jr. It's May. and you know what that means, the Indianapolis 500 is just around the corner. Thankfully, we have Speed Street with Indy Car Racer, Connor Daly, and comedian Joey Mollanero. They're going to get us ready to go.

Follow Speed Street so you never miss an episode and get ready for the greatest spectacle in racing, the Indianapolis 500. You ended up becoming crew chief for Austin. You've been at RCR for a while, right? That's with Palminard, yeah. You were with Paul, then you were research and development and different roles.

How did your relationship? with Richard change when you became a crew chief for his grandson. It was tough. That's like being my crew chief. It's like a tough job. Yeah, so horniness, that's for sure.

But, you know, when Paul drove the 27 car at RCR, management never really said much. They just let me do my thing, go race, do my thing. And,

you know, with Paul for four years, things were kind of getting stagnant. One in the Brickyard 400, which was great. A phenomenal race, I'll never forget. But things were getting stagnant over time.

As you know, Like you and the Uri's, I mean, instead of just sitting in a room and saying, let's get our shit together, we just grew apart. So Paul and myself separated. I went to R&D and I was working on cars, working on speed for the crew chiefs, doing things that you're supposed to do. Run some races with Brian Scott and run a race at Michigan with Ty Dillon. And built this pretty badass car.

Had some pretty unique stuff on it that was looking for a performance advantage. Wasn't cheating. It was performance advantage. The way you glow when you tell us stories, by the way. ways funny because that shit don't come easy man you work your ass off to get those things and uh so we're running michigan and austin's driving the three dow car and and here's tie driving this other unsponsored car whatever it was and tie had passed austin and when tie passed austin he put his finger out the window oh wow wow he's at his brother and then uh so we ended up we were gonna finish like second

or third and then uh it started raining or something we had to pit but we were in top five most of the race would tie that day. So we get back to the shop and I'm getting a car ready to go to Richmond and do a tire test with Brian Scott. And I'm laying another car sitting a track bar and someone kicks my feet. What the hell? So I kept on working, kicks my feet again. I crawl off one of the cars.

Mike Dillon. He said, hey man, you're Creece for the three now. Just like that. And I'm like, what? He said, yeah, the guys are in the conference room. He said, let's go. I said, what happened to Gil, Gil Martin, which is a great dude like Mark Reno, you But I mean, I get it.

Sometimes this sport is so freaking competitive that if you don't do your job or things don't go right, you get eliminated, that target. And they take me in the office and introduce me as the crew chief of the three. And we have an off week coming up before we race Sonoma. And here I am the crew chief of the three. So I was kind of voluntold, like, here you go. And I was like, man, I'm really happy doing my R&D job over here. And they're like, no, this is what we're going to do. So I went to work for Austin and just that was probably one of the biggest leaddowns of my life, honestly.

Really? Because let me say why. It's because I never want to race with him. That was the biggest led. I wanted that three car. I wanted to be the crew chief that led that three car to win other than your dad. And man, it just never freaking happened. That was the biggest disappointed in my career is not winning with Austin.

I'll tell you. And then the next race, when I'm done, they went on fuel mileage at the 600. So it was great, you know, but I really, I loved working for RCR, but when I, I, I became Austin's crew chief. It really got tense between Richard, and it was everything that Gilmartin had told me was going to be. Richard was very, very passionate and passionate about his grandsons and wanted everything the best,

and constantly on the digital radio on your left ear, that's all you heard, was Richard just the whole race, all during practice and just relentless. And it just got to the point where, you know, this guy's in the Hall of Fame, and I'm having fights with him. over his grandson driving and it's just it was nonsense you know it was stupid I just didn't I gave Richard out most respect when I was Paul's crew chief and then when I was Austin's

crew chief I probably didn't give him what he deserved you know because he was really protective of his grandson as he should be but I just I really really struggled with that had a hard time enjoyed working there but things got really really tense and Eric Warren and Mike Dillon stepped in and said look we need to do something different yeah I'm glad they did after that role, you did a little bit of TV, which was interesting. Had to probably give you a nice appreciation for that side of things. Totally.

And you got hired by Toyota right away. I did. Yeah, so I went to work for, I did some stuff for MRN for a while, I called some races, NBC, did their Tuesday night shows and Thursday night shows. I really, really enjoyed that. But Andy Graves called me up and said, look, we're looking for someone to come in and take over the drag racing series. And I'm like, dude, I don't know damn thing about drag racing.

you know and he goes perfect that's what we want we want someone to come in bring all the nascar technologies all of our tools uh and help these crew chiefs you know get get modern so basically uh my first couple races uh first race was at charlotte in 2017 Doug coletta wins the race i'm like this is easy you know once again but um no basically i had to go in there and just learn all over you know because i didn't know anything uh much like when i started working for kelly more i didn't know shi and uh i just started talking to the crew chiefs and listening and paying attention. And I quickly learned in drag racing that crew chiefs,

they're focused on engines and clutches, because that's where it's all at. They didn't pay as much attention to safety, to headers, aerodynamics, tires, tire pressures, things like that and things that I was really familiar with. So I just said, like, you know what? They got the engine and clutches. Let me work on this stuff and come in and make some influences.

So basically, in 2018, we had a couple of good tests, come up with some new theories, some new, new ideas, brought in a bunch of engineering support, gave them some tools to help predict what they should run. And basically, man, we went to Indianapolis with J.R. Todd's team and hit up on a couple things with some clutch disc and some headers. And we won a championship in 2018. And for me to go from NASCAR to win a championship in drag racing was really,

really cool. And we actually won last year with Ron Capps, which is a great dude, to have a couple championships. But man, I'll tell you, in drag racing, it is so, so crazy that so much can go wrong and so fast a time. Oh, good. You know, in four seconds or three and a half seconds, I mean, so much goes wrong.

And just this past weekend, we were racing in Chicago. Ron Capps was ahead in the final, and the right parachute just opened up out of the blue. Just had a malfunction, you know, and lost the race. But there's always something that goes wrong, and you gotta go find what happens, so what goes wrong. But drag racing is a lot of fun. It really gave me a different,

it made me a different person, because I get to go to different tracks. meet all kinds of different people. I mean, John Forrest knew who I was, right? Who the hell knew? I mean, John, John Foie, hey, engineering guy, come over here, let's talk, you know. But just all the bright minds that are in that garage because they don't have computer simulations. They don't have engineers, you know, telling them what to do. I mean, these guys worked their ass off to figure out what to do to put 11,000 horsepower to the ground, you know.

And it's a really, really neat sport. I see it growing. I do wish that there would be some overlay where, Like here at Charlotte, right? Run the 600 on Sunday but have an NHRA event on Saturday or, you know, other places that whether we could do that, Atlanta, there's plenty of places that we could do it. But I think to get the fans. Bristol, too, yeah, that.

I mean, you've been in the paddock before. I mean, the fans are right there literally two feet behind the cars. Yeah. And the fan experience is huge for them. Much different than what it is now in NASCAR. It used to be a lot different in NASCAR, but it's definitely changed. But NHRA is cool. Tony Stewart.

there. He's having a good time. I talk to him all time and he's heavily involved now. He's learning a lot fast, much like me is absorbing so much. But that damn Tony Stewart. I'll tell you a story about him. We were tested in 2005 at Kansas at a good year tire test and I'm

sure you've seen Tony run around with a torch, a tire torch that uses scrape of tires and you can break cleaner. He would burn people up. You ever see that? No. That's some bit it did it. I could surprise you never done that, but he would run around like if you'd be leaning against a wall, he would walk up behind you with a torch can of brake cleaner and he would spray it, light it up, and it would throw a flame

at you. He would light you on fire. That was his big thing. Seems dangerous. Did it for years. I'm surprised you never heard that. I mean, Tony would light people up at least three guys a weekend in the garage area. So I'm at Kansas. We're at a tire test, and I'm leaning against the wall watching the racetrack time in cars. All of a sudden, I smell hair. Well, that's somebody's coming around the corner. He'd let me on fire with a torch. So I chased him, and he ran like a little girl. I couldn't catch him. And I said, I'm going to get you. So I went over my truck driver. I said, hey, man, I said, I need a flare. A flare. What do you need a flare for? I said, I need a flare and a piece of pipe. I need it now. So we went over there and we cobbled something up

and I got me a truck or flare. Waited about an hour and I noticed Stewart he was getting in this car to go make another run. This is when he drove at JGR, Zip, he was as a crew chief. So Tony got in in this car and a guy just put the window net up and I come around the corner. He was just getting ready fired up. And I light this flare off. And I grabbed the latch on a window net with my hand, and I put this flare inside the car, and it's smoking him out. Man, he is screaming like a girl. Let me out, let me out, let me out.

I held him in there for probably about a minute and a half. It was bad. It melted the windshield out of it. It melted the dash, all the seatbelts, the seat, burned his fire suit up. Good hand. Yeah, I mean, I got him back. I was one of the only people that really effed him back up.

To what end? But Zipping them would high-five me because they were like, man, no one ever messed with Tony, right? You're the only guy to get it. But that's just me. I don't take no shit, you know. And I just, but yeah, that's a weird story. But I saw the people about that.

That's Tony, because he is famous for burning people up. I'd never heard of that. Oh, that's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah. Before we let you go, I've got to ask you a quick question. Because, you know, like hearing your career arc has been fascinating. I don't want to call you the modern day suitcase, Jake.

I would say, though, that you do get around, you know. But here's my question to you. Is it possible? that every crew chief on pit road right now has said to themselves and looked at their team and said to themselves, I wonder which one of you guys is going to end up taking my job. For sure.

Because you, listen, you said it from the time at Hendrick, you know, you and Dee Hart and who's going to replace. Sometimes you benefited from it. Even up the RCR, Gil Martin, you know, these are people internally, Deller-Hern Incorporated. We've been well documented. You do everything you can to get the best people that can work on cars and make you go fast. But it's almost like you're also hiring your replacement when it goes south.

Is that true? Is that a pervasive thought that's in every crew chief's mind? 100%. It has to be. If not, then you're not thinking very well. But for me, when I left RCR, I knew my time was up as a crew chief. I knew then I didn't want to go be a crew chief again because the sport was being engineer driven, right? I was pushed out. Tony Gibson was pushed out. People that are school of Pat Trison, school of hard-knock guys that work on their cars, understand their cars. They're getting

pushed out because here's this computer. And it's telling you what to run for Shoxon Springs. Here's the AI on the board that's telling you when to pit to get two tires or four tires, right? And here's the shop that's building your race car that you used to be so passionate with and in love with. As you know, everybody had their favorite cars, right? And then now here's your race car that that the shop prepared. You didn't get to choose which race car you wanted. Here's the engineer saying here's your shocks and springs. And here's the AI saying you pit on lap 64 when the caution comes out and get two tires,

four tires. So I knew my time as a kid with a high school education was getting pushed out the door. And of course, like you said, you know, when I replaced Mark Reno, you know, like, what the hell is why? You know, and Gil Martin, why? What hell do he do wrong, you know, and Steve Meal or others, you know. But you just know that someone is always out to. They're trying to get your job.

It's a target. You kept talking about a target. It's target from the fans, target from your own internal team. Trust me, I love a sport, man, but I've been in NASCAR now for 37 years, Mike, and I love this sport, and I don't want to do nothing else. I really, really love it. But sometimes I hate some of the shit that goes on behind the scenes, you know, the sponsorship and making these tough decisions.

And that's why I think I worked for Robert so many times was simply because he was forced to make a decision, and he put me back in that role when he could. But I don't know. It's so competitive now. You know, you look at people on pit road, people getting changed out all the time. Because every part of NASCAR in the Cup Series is so competitive. And, man, you're only as good as your last race. Who's the crew chief that impresses you these days?

In the Cup Series? I think Cliff Daniels. He's really methodical. He's like that robot, right? That can, okay, you give me, that's the car. You gave me, okay, I'll do it. Here's the engineers doing this and here's the AI. He puts everything together.

and he's mild-mannered. He never gets excited. He keeps the driver plugged in, where I think a lot of it in the old school, like we used to yell at our drivers, be confrontational to try to fire them up. And now it's the opposite, right? And it's just a whole different approach.

The world's changed. You know, the sport, when his Gen 7 car came along, you had to really forget about everything you knew and start over. So that's why these new engineers coming in have a fresh mindset, and they can start with a clean slate. But, man, I remember Kyle Bush,

when he first drove the Gen 7 car of Charlotte. He went out and made three laps and he said, man, drop a track bar three rounds. I'm too loose. And the crucially said it doesn't have a track bar. You know what I mean? But that's just the mindset of that car is completely changed. But the sports changed and the whole model of how we do things

are going to change in the Cup Series. Because we got too big. We had too much money, had too much people. And we just, you know, we were a creature of habit. We just did everything we wanted to and didn't care anything about it. So again, like I said, 37 years in a sport, I don't want to do anything else. I love it.

I listen. The only podcast I listened was Fat Back. And he's spot on. You know, I mean, he wants to get back into sport because he loves it. I mean, he was selling tires dealing with the public, and sometimes dealing with the public isn't what you want to do, and he wants to get back into sports. And he's at Venturini's right now. He's a shop former at Venturini.

So he's back in the sports. Yeah. And Venturine's is Toyota-related, so we get to spend time together. Oh, that's neat. But, man, Fat Back is passionate about a sport like me. I mean, he never settled for second. I mean, I always wanted the best, and so did I. I pushed my people to be the best, and sometimes I ruffled some feathers, and other times,

is this the way it goes? But, man, I've had crew chiefs now that used to work for me that I told them when they became an engineer, from an engineer to a crew chief, watch out for that target. Yeah. And I have a lot of people that text me about the target, you know. Seems so simple, but wearing that target on your back, man, there is no pressure that I know of in the world more than we're in that target. It's tough. Yeah.

I'm telling him. It's the way it goes. Well, man, been a great conversation. I know it. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for coming today. Still can't believe you've got my toolbox. I know it.

Well, I'm glad it finally got that out of my chest. That is so worth coming here today. Oh, shit. Well, I, you know, I've known you a really, really long time. From the day I met you till today, you've been nothing but nice to me. Every time I see you, always pleasant. And I appreciate that. I'll, you know, there's certain people that are pleasant when they need to be or have to be.

And, but you're just, you're, you're, you're, that way because you're a good guy and good character. I've enjoyed knowing you all these years, awesome to have you here today with us to be able to talk a little bit more and get to know you even better. Yes, sir. So thanks for coming to see us. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. And it means a lot to get out here and just talk about old times because, man, that's what we have is, his memories. But, man, I still wish I was your crew chief.

I wonder what we would have been able to do. I just think back a little. You know, people talk about, you know, if Dale Sheena was here, what would it be like, right? You asked that question. I just wondered, like, if you and I ever hooked up. Yeah. Man, should have, could, or would have never happened,

but I'm disappointed, never did, but I'm glad that we're friends. Yeah, well, I ain't done driving yet. That's right. I was just going to say. A race or two. Let your TRD stuff and your drag racing stuff play out. He's back on the cars tour. You got a late model here and there.

You know, y'all can go win a race. Sounds good, man. Hey, look, I love your show. I love what you do on NBC. You bring so much to the broadcast. And, you know, for race fans to sit home and watch and have you explain how it all works, man. I've had a lot of people from drag racing that tell me they learn a lot from watching you. So it's your big influence to the sport and keep doing what you're doing, bud.

Well, thank you, bud. I appreciate it. It's nice to know we have some allies in the NHRA world. I've always enjoyed the moments that I've been over there to visit them. And now I know somebody in the garage to actually get me a pass. So let's go out in the shop. I want to see what's going on here at Junior Motorsports. I'll come take you for a laugh.

I see a car in the push-up machine. Guernary's Airhorn. He's coming in. Good stuff, man. Cover them up, boy. Cover them up. Good stuff. Thanks, guys.

Slugger Lavie on the Dale Junior Download. Man, I'm really excited to have Ally help us bring the guest segment every week. It's one of my favorite parts of the download. We get to talk to so many different people in racing, outside of racing. But everybody that comes in here, I want them to have had a good time. time. I want them to want to come back. I want them to feel like an ally to Dirty Mo Media. Thank you, Ally, for your continued support of the download and the entire Dirty Mo Media team. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.