The Dale Jr. Download - 485 - WWE Superstar Cody Rhodes - The Journey To The Top

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Cody Rhodes may seem worlds apart on the surface, but their paths through life hold many similarities. On this episode of the Dale Jr. Download, the American Nightmare himself joins Dale Jr. and co-host Mike Davis to discuss their likeness: growing up in the shadow of a generational figure. Dale Jr. shares that while growing up, he used to watch Cody’s father, the iconic Dusty Rhodes, on Saturday morning matinee presentations of NWA Wrestling on television. Meanwhile, Cody recalled the experience of discovering his father’s legacy at an early age, and how over time he developed the inclination to follow in his footsteps. They chat about the internal conflict of being immensely proud of their fathers while wanting to forge a path of their own. The conversation unpacks Cody’s stellar amateur wrestling career in high school, a sport he originally pursued to prove the legitimacy of his father’s career as a professional. They also discuss him taking on a position at WWE at an early age, and the idea that perhaps he was moved up from the developmental ranks too quickly simply because he was Dusty’s son. Cody speaks on playing the role of Stardust and how the rigidness of the WWE writers at the time led to him burning his bridges and returning to the independent circuit to reinvent himself. He also dives into his catastrophic pectoral injury and how he wrestled through it, only to return to glory on the Wrestlemania stage.DraftKings State-Specific Problem Gambling Information:In Massachusetts, call [phone] or visit gamblinghelplinema.org, In New York, call 877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369). In Tennessee and Kansas, Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). In West Virginia, Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit www.1800gambler.net. All games regulated by the West Virginia Lottery. Please play responsibly. In partnership with Hollywood Casino at Charles Town Races. In Connecticut, Help is available for problem gambling call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Calling is a production of Dirty Mo Media. There he is. Come on in here, buddy. Have a seat. Hey, everybody. Glad you tuned in. It's time for another episode of the Dale Jr. Download. Mike Davis, Delenhard Jr., the Bojangl Studio.

You've got a great guest today. Well, how you doing, Rhiz? I'm doing fine right now. This is every week, okay, boy? Huckle it. You died on that hill. Your career died on that hill and you were hardheaded. You're a bigger idiot.

I didn't even think about it. You thought about it and didn't ask it. That makes me the bigger idiot. I think so. Welcome everybody to another episode of the Dale Jr. Download here at the Bojangal Studio with my co-host, Mike, how you doing? I'm doing well, man. Can't wait for today.

Yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun. I'm excited about this guest. I'm excited about all our guests. But sometimes, man, especially when it's not a NASCAR, motorsports guest. We do those. We love them. We love them. We love them.

We love them. We love them. We love you. Any car, all those cars? I love them. All the cars. All the cars. But sometimes, we like to get away for the cars.

Yeah, we've had some really great opportunities presented to us in the past, and here's another one. So I'll straight up, be honest. When I was a little boy, I watched a lot of wrestling. Every Saturday we watched wrestling, so much so that it was actually, I was actually, I was, it was actually restricted from my diet. Wow. Yeah, I would get a little too rowdy.

Oh, a little funer bunches. Yeah, and so me and my friends, we wrestled it in the basements of our houses. We had fake matches with the belts and everything. And so our guest, his dad, was one of my favorites. His name was Dusty Roads. Everybody's favorite. Who didn't like Dusty Roads. And so, you know, and I'll be honest, I knew about his brother.

Gold Dust and all that. And I didn't know about Cody. Yeah. And so Cody Rhodes is, you know, a lot of people do know a story, especially, you know, the hardcore fans of WWE, the independent fans. Everybody knows who Cody is. If you don't, if you're like me and don't know the whole story, Cody has a documentary out.

It's on Peacock, and I watched it. it does a really incredible job of a giving you this incredible path and story that he's been on, but also it makes you a fan. Yeah. Doesn't it? Yeah. Unconventional is the word that comes to mind because, you know, listen, there, there, you and I had this conversation offline, but, you know, there are a lot of similarities between the two of you, first of all, right?

Both famous fathers, but then also sister, a sister being very prevalent in the life of the, of, uh, of each of you. Also, identity, right? Just finding your identity. What's the balance of being able to honor your father, but also be yourself? And I know, like, you know, Dale, people would always say, when are you going to drive the three? You know, you know, when you go and drive the three? And you never were interested in the three. And then I know that in watching this documentary, like you said, which is fantastic, I think Cody struggles with the same thing.

Proud of his father, loves the fact that he's dusty road son. but also had this yearning to be his own man. And man, did he take an unconventional road to get there? Yeah, he certainly wanted to, you know, we could talk about this tomorrow on the reaction show, but I think he certainly wanted to honor his dad. And it's interesting how far into his career he got to where he was comfortable maybe, you know, using some of those traits, right?

Those God-given traits and some of his dad's own, you know, practices and so forth in his character and so, you know, in wrestling. Yeah. So he stayed so far away from it, intentionally going in the other direction. We'll talk about it and a whole lot more. But we've got to thank Ally for around us to bring this guest segment. It's back. The guest segment is back.

and thanks to Ally, who has been very flexible, very malleable throughout this whole process of the Becoming Earnhardt series and how it's upset the identity of the show in a way where, you know, we're getting back to what we are. And so that's bringing guests in here that we're compelled and excited about. This would be someone that I hope by the end of this conversation is an ally. Absolutely. Right. And so thank you, Ally, for everything you do for us here at the, uh, uh, uh, Dale Jr. Download, and obviously for DoDMO Media and everything you do in Moorsville,

they do a great job in supporting us and NASCAR in general. So let's welcome Cody Rhodes to the Dell Jr. Download. How are you? How are you? Absolutely. Pleasure, dude. Thanks for having me. Where am I at? Chair right here. Boom. All right. What a great setup you have here. Thanks, man.

We have a lot of fun. In real time happening over there. Oh, yeah. And by the way, I don't know if they've told you this, Cody. but I do not know of a guest that we've ever had where the shop has been looking forward to you coming in like this one. These guys showed up early today and they're saying,

we've got to have him on the shop floor. I want to get on the shop floor then. That's exciting. That's really, really cool. What are they out there doing right now? Well, basically, we race about every weekend, so they're getting cars ready for the coming race in Kansas, and there's also some cars getting ready for Bristol.

which is after Kansas. And so there's cars that come back from the race this weekend that are getting cleaned up to our part. They'll get rebuilt. And then there's cars always in a preparation, certain modes of preparation, right, certain stages. There's Fab Shop, Parks Department. This used to be a souvenir shop.

On the other side of that wall is the rest of the current souvenir shop. When we were racing, racing, we were selling a whole lot more souvenirs. So we had more souvenir shop. But now we're podcasting. In semi-retirement. Did you, in your merchandise shop, did you ever sell, like, the jackets? What I would say is the traditional. For sure.

Okay, so I was just telling this to one of my buddies is I had this jacket that was made for me, just a casual jacket that was made for me years ago, and I saw it. And it was a big American Eagle, so much iconography on it, it was just loaded. And I remember saying this looks like a NASCAR jacket. jacket. And that I'm not sure the market on this jacket. I don't know. I always wear suits on TV or I'm in the robe. You know, I don't know. Will I be able to make this work? I don't know if it fits. I did this signing, this autograph signing, and there was a dude back in the line. He had a NASCAR jacket on, right? I was like, all right, well, I'll find out if this is the market.

And I was wearing the jacket at the time for the signing. And the guy comes up, hey, how are you, where he from and the first thing he said was gosh i got to have that jacket it's amazing i got to send you guys a picture of it it's just we call it lovingly on the bus like the nascar jacket you know it's just very bold in your face yeah very loud so the suits when did that start uh it's funny i had the best job i was uh i was working for wb i started working for wdb when it was only 20 was when i started i debuted on monday night raw 21 so i had that great job for 10 years and wb is a big i don't know like from an organizational standpoint very new york yankees in a sense like a lot of people dress up to come to work there's there's a lot

of pomp and circumstance a lot of structure very very structured but the whole time i was there i was there. I just didn't adopt that, the style of, like a Vince McMahon who was, you know, the boss. And then I left in a very burn the boats, burn the bridges. I had this big moment in time where I just couldn't handle it anymore. I had a really good eight of the 10 years and then two years of not so great. And when I left, I was planning, what will I do? You know, I want to be different. I want them to see. I want them to know they were wrong about me, this being WWE. And one of the ideas I had was, all right, well, I'll be doing these independent shows, very small wrestling shows, sometimes in front of 50 people.

Right. I mean, some of these buildings only held 50. And then you do these small independent shows, but I was a guy coming from WDB who had been on television, and that's where I started. I was like, I want to be the one in legit, in armory that's connected to a trailer park. or this tiny old VFW. I want to be the one who looks, you know, dress for the job you want type. And that started as a total gimmick.

Like this is a bit. This is a gimmick. And then it just became my life to where, if now I go on the bus and look in the closet, there's no casual clothes. It's just suits, the NASCAR jacket, wrestling gear. The NASCAR jacket. It's just become a thing.

And it's been very helpful. I have a love for just kind of old school America and suits. It's been very helpful because I had a brief executive job in another wrestling company that I was part of and somebody had to look like we knew what we were doing. And I can't, I don't know if I did know what I was doing, but I wanted to look like I did. A lot of people have questions for you

when you become in charge of anything and I just at least looked apart. You tried to at least. So now it's become a thing. Well, we're thankful you're here. I got to tell you, man I grew up I'm 49

in October and I grew up watching NWA every Saturday morning we had cartoons and as soon as cartoons was over NWA comes up I love it me and I had a couple buddies lived up the street for me about

six houses we had the paper belts we made them ourselves we had all the moves watched your dad wrestle a million times the four horsemen and Magnum T.A. was my guy. That's a good one.

Yeah, and such a heartbreaker when he was injured. But I grew up on that kind of wrestling, right? And so I wonder, you know, when you were a kid, right? And your dad is that, you know, you I think you talk about that a little bit

like getting the VCR out and or getting the tapes out or going on YouTube. And so how do you how do you sort of educate yourself, I guess, on your, on your family's legacy, your dad's history? What the, you know, the business and what it is today versus what it was with the NWA and all that back then, right? How did you do that? How did you educate yourself? It was around the time you start, like those formative, you start to remember things and that part of your life,

I, a lot of parents in the neighborhood we lived in, I didn't think anything. different about my dad. I didn't ask him what he did for it. I didn't think anything different. He was just dad. The parents would be really either very excited about him being in the neighborhood or, you know, we lived in kind of a snooty area. Wrestling, you know, was low brow to them. There was a Braves commentator who was on the other side of the neighborhood.

He was the big celebrity. And then we were kind of Adam's family to some people, especially. he'd go to the pool and he'd wear and again I didn't really get it like he'd wear his trunks classic DR trunks ray bands that his head was so big the ray bands would like barely be on you know but also now they're stuck on he'd go and he was like 300 something pounds go on the diving board do this huge dive just make a scene for all these parents at the pool and I don't know I just I got from them is where I first started realizing he does something different and I I got really early on got very protective of him because he was 39 when he had me older career had

already happened had two kids you know three kids already at this point so i became very protective because he was in this place where he was semi-retired there was still a lot of love for him but he was also behind the scenes he was in the managerial role and and the real way i educated myself was exactly what you said this blockbuster video had arrested you know in the south we a wrestling section and it was WWF and then there was the WCW stuff and I was watching current WCW but I needed to go back in

WA territory stuff whatever remained of it and see why he was this luminary figure and it blew me away right blew me I mean often the blood but then just even at a young age I thought

I'm really proud of him it was a weird kind of I still have it to this day, protective nature of him. But yeah, that was just mind-blowing to me to see Greensboro Coliseum sold out, losing their mind. Just blew my mind. It seemed like every match I watched was him and Flare. You know, all the big pay-per-views, Flare, Flare, Flare, and they were such different, like juxtaposed so differently against one another.

Oh, my gosh. But that was really, that was nice. And then at the time, wrestling was not as popular as it is today and not as popular as got in the late 90s. So in the, you know, late 80s, early 90s, I was just the one kid who knew about wrestling. So I had to find the other kids at school. Like, you're into that?

Okay, I got stuff, you know, so, yeah. So, yeah, I felt like, I mean, it's probably not real reality, but I felt like in the 80s, like shooting promos and stuff, your dad and Flair and those guys, like that was the whole show on Saturday morning was them in front of the microphone.

there was a couple wrestling matches, but it was really just them talking. It doesn't seem like when you look back that they kind of created the promo, like the value of the promo, right? And the ability, then it became like, you know, who can do it better. And your dad was one of the best, right? So I think that I find that we always talk about the toughest part of the broadcast on the race is the 10 seconds of live TV where we're actually on the screen, right? And so the promo, how hard is the promo versus the actual rest of the job?

The promo to me looks like the most important moment, right? And so how much of that are you working on? How much of that are you really crafting yourself? The promo in the sports entertainment and pro wrestling space, and you mentioned that that WCW in the 80s and Saturday morning, and then we've come Saturday night, it was almost like it was a commercial for the, the show that was going to be coming to you.

They're just talking about. And there are these couple what we'd call enhancement matches or real quick moments. And then they got back and you'd have your big players out there to do their interviews. The promo, here's the best way to look at it is there's so many great wrestling matches. Really, there's, I love a wrestling match. I do go back and watch a full match. Most of the time, the memories, moments that were connected to aren't an actual match. you know dusty for example hard times this promo he did that's typically what most people will bring up

and talk about and get into they're not actually talking about the match that it referenced like i can get to oh well here at the gathering they did this and the you know the finish was a small package out of the figure four i i remember but but there's a good chunk of fans that connect to the promo and the reason is my dad used to teach promos at nxte which is the developmental system to be. But he never called it promos. He, uh, he called the communications class. Um, but I got what he meant years kind of into him doing it. Um, his idea of communicating was connecting. That's really what it was. You can do all like today. There's so many cool, what we would call a high spot flips and crazy athleticism. But if they don't care about you, it's like watching fireworks. They, they did

it. We've seen it. We don't, you know, you know. and he had the ability to make them care about him or at least dislike his opponent or kid that that's the most important thing and I have a wrestling school now in McDonough Georgia and that's my favorite day and it feels like the only day I have anything to really even offer him the rest of it I'm just winging it you know I take a hiptoece here we go but that that's so important and a lot of people today don't want to work on it and I I understand, like, you see what you see on TV and guys doing all this really athletic stuff, but it's not something that people want to work on that much.

I have gotten in the habit of I overwork on them. I have, there's a whole WGB, again, a lot of structure. There's a whole brain trust. There's a writer, you know, there's a voice memo of what I'd like to say. Then it goes back and we go back and forth on it back and forth. Then there's these really great luminary figures, legends that are backstage at WDB, who they'll chime in, and they'll have an idea. And I've been very lucky at WDB

that people like these interviews and like these moments. And they're very different from Dusty's. You know, I'm not, there's not the soul that Dusty presented. There's almost a camp, like a political campaign element to how I do an interview. They're very different and they have to be. Sure.

It can't be him, you know? Was his natural or did he also take the deliberate intention to craft that? Because he was known for his charisma. and the working man and you could identify. I just wondered if that was just something that was natural to him or if he recognized the opportunity to represent a whole body of people. It's very much something he crafted. And not a lot of people knew this.

His documentary, they did a documentary on A&E about him recently, and I was so glad that this information got in there. But my dad modeled a lot after a wrestler named Thunderbolt Patterson. and Thunderbolt Patterson, this is, a lot of guys did this. You know, Hogan took from superstar Billy Graham. There wasn't a lot of footage. So you could steal and pluck and there wasn't, you know, going to be such a callback to today. You can't even do it like a song quote.

And so somebody's, you know, that's all they're calling out on social. So you have to be a little bit different today. But he very much crafted it. And the voice, you know, the way he spoke. which was kind of like with the lisp and the like a deeply pronounced lisp which the rib is I ended up getting a legit lisp but anyways he uh lucky yeah right he i would hear him in the mornings he do radios in the mornings and there was a huge difference between how he would speak to me like driving to school and then all of a sudden i'd hear him down there and like it was very crafted and he knew what it was and he could get away with doing because it was so ridiculous often how dusty talked and presented he could get away away with doing very little. Like there's he could come out there with we call him today no new information promos. It's the dreaded thing. It was like I'm not telling him it's a cage match. I'm not we're not getting into a fight. Oh my gosh. No information just he was the master at

those because they just wanted to have fun with him. Yeah. And like giggle and laugh and have this charismatic moment and that was again he could connect to him and communicate but very crafted. It was not that's not he was very different as a football coach and as a dad. But. But he was. He was a dad. But But when I try to explain that to fans today, they won't, they will not have any of it. They want to think of him. That was who he was. And I totally get it.

So we were really lucky to have Stone Cold come visit us a couple years ago. And we talked to him about promos. And he talked about how much of a work it was in progress, right? From when he started to where he ended up. And if when you, you know, having your school, where you're able to sort of see these kids come in and these younger or these rookies come in, is it a, is it, is being able to do a promo, right? Is that, is that, do you see it immediately in some people like they just got the charisma and other, but can it be trained? Can it be something you acquire over time, right?

I would say it can definitely be something you can be trained because I always jokingly, but it's kind of true, tell people. I didn't get a lot of, like, I'm like my mom. My brother ended up, you know, my brother's 6-6. He just reminds me so much of dad. He got this unbelievable athleticism. I kind of didn't take any of that. So for me, especially following in the footsteps of dad, I've had, mine is very much I've had to work on it.

I continue to work on it. Every, like, that's, it's so important. So it can be trained. And if you have a good mentor, NXT had Dusty, There's certain guys at WW who have Paul Heyman, who's another master on the mic. It can be, but the best is when you combined it, when someone has the natural gift. That's what we see a lot. Even rookies, undersized, don't know anything about anything yet.

They're just growing into themselves. You can tell right away, just when they start speaking, there's something that I want to hang on to about what this kid is saying, this girl saying this guy is saying. So that's the best when you can have it, but not bank on. having it. Hey, I have it, but I want to work on it now. I want to get it better because it's so important. When you were young, you talk about not having the athleticism of your brother, but you were an athlete in school. Yeah. You wrestled. Were you great when you started? Oh, my gosh. The worst of the worst. Oh, come on now. Why did you wrestle if you were not good at it?

I wanted to amateur wrestle or folk style what you see in college. I wanted to do that, again, very protective of my dad. This sounds. Sounds crazy, but I was a weird kid. Those people who look down on him, nothing's more real than amateur wrestling. I mean, there's team duels and there's teams involved, but really it's you, this other guy. You got six minutes or when you're younger, it's just three minutes, and you're going to pin him. He's going to pin you. You've got to get up, shake hands after.

There's nothing more, I guess, real in my line of sight as a kid. and I wanted to be good at it because people looked at him and thought maybe he's not a real athlete. You know, he's, he's, we see all these promos, we see how he looks physically. They didn't realize he was a very gifted athlete. He just didn't look like, you know, Frank Zane,

but he was a very, very gifted athlete. But that was my driving force as a kid. I want to be really good, and it took forever. I was on the wrestling team from eight years old, and then I didn't click until 16. Yeah. And once I clicked, I just never looked back.

I only got taken down twice. 101 and two. 102. Two times state champion. Yeah, I was very lucky. So lucky, but good. Yeah, no, I had to figure it out. It's a lot of the combination of you have the technique,

like a double leg, a single leg, an ankle pick. It's all great. But if you don't have the body strength, if you can't be doing a pull-up, you know, if you're not the Presidential Fitness Award or whatever it was going around, you might not hang in there with some of those athletes. So once those things came together, I was cooking. You said that you were doing that. One of the motivations was protecting your dad.

How much was validation from your dad that drove you? And did he get to come watch you? So he, because again, Simi retired, he went to everything. Okay. So he's there. Yeah, so we have this poll. My brother, Dustin, have this polar opposite upbringing. I love my brother, Dustin.

Very important. I don't say it enough. I love Dustin. But my gosh, his experience with my dad is so different. Dad was never home. He didn't know him. What's the age gap between you? 16 years.

Oh, my God. He doesn't like me bringing that up. Unreal. Well, yeah. But Dustin, you know, they had an unbelievable, like they had a different upbringing. And then for me, I got everything. I know for sure. I tell everyone I had the perfect dad.

He was perfect for me. Sure. I know for sure. He trial and error. Okay, Dustin, Kristen, all right, my sister, Teal, I'm doing a lot better now. And when I came around, it was like, I got this. I'm going to make sure I'm there for him in every way. And he was at everything.

And I don't think I knew consciously that I, again, you wanted him to be proud, wanted him to be in on it. I didn't think I realized that consciously, really until the, really until the end of his life. When it became a just, man, like, you've been doing this so long. wanting this one thing driving to get it making these crazy left turns and decisions and uprooting the business at one point you've been doing all this and a good chunk of it is just so that somewhere someday he could be like good good job i told you you know this he was very complimentary always proud always happy but still you know those moments where you you win them

where you earn you know where they see something like yeah you can you can feel pride more than you hear it. It's a subconscious thing, but I think that this is one of the things that you and Dale have so much in common, and you don't even, maybe y'all don't even realize it, but it's not just that you guys had famous fathers, but Dale, I mean, I look back at your racing career and how, you know, the stories you tell, and it looks like just a kid trying to get validation from your dad, and we watch your documentary, which is amazing. Thank you. It's great. Cody, it's amazing. And there is this common thread all the way through it, And that's that your dad's role and you guys both trying to find your identities that can honor them,

but also be your own, right? And you also look for validation, I guess. So with the difference in age, right, and you got a big family, how often do you guys get together? Is there family reunions, Christmas, Thanksgiving, what are the roads doing? we it seems like only get together when it's about wrestling yeah you know it's funny our we've got family in texas family in florida family in georgia family all over the place but when it's wrestling like last year wrestling mania the main event so-fi i was making sure this get as get his man get the family together that's one of the things i like doing you know you try to take things

from like i try to take something that might my dad was the master i keep in the family together. He was a mess in a lot of other areas, you know, but as keeping a family together, he was the centerpiece. Everybody wanted to get towards him. So for me, I'm the colder, more logical, distant. I don't have the same warmth he had, but I know with those events, like, it's important to me that they all come. And it was cool this year at WrestleMania, although I lost. So they were, I can tell they were like, we came all the way out here for it brought us at a came all the way out here, you know, I'm like, what is the main event? Yeah, no, but wrestling brings us together.

And I'd be completely remiss. I don't know if you've heard this before. But my dad was a monster fan, monster fan. And your dad was his absolute favorite. I can't, I can't, I don't know if, you know, my sister. So my sister was so excited I was coming on this, my sister Teal. Because my dad sat there, he watched every. race and he had very specific taste he's a showman yeah so he loved your dad he loved that there's a presence

yeah there's almost a gimmick here and then and then the gimmicks backed up by oh he's that good oh my gosh and he had this odd not dislike but odd not into richard petty yeah and i never as like richard petties he'd always be he's king you know but when he got to dale there's dale dale dale and then watching you uh he was him and my mom both big big big big time fans damn that's crazy And those races are, guys, these races are long. So when you're a kid and you're just like, he's just, he's plugged in on the couch. He loved it so much. Yeah, no, so I don't know if you ever knew that, but it's not, he had this one moment where

at Daytona, when your father passed, he was doing a show in Carrollton, Georgia, a small independent show for our company, and he was devastated. And he didn't know, do we say anything to the crowd? This is a very Carrollton, Georgia. This is a very, they got roots in this. They're loving this. And I remember that drive home with him, just different times he'd watched and how excited he was.

And yeah, no. So you've never been told. I never know that. It's as real as it gets. He was a huge fan. And by far, your family was the favorite. Because I couldn't get him to like, he didn't like Jeff Gordon. Oh, man.

He doesn't. No way does Dusty Road lock Jeff Gordon? No, he had these, like, he had specific taste. And I remember once. he referred to, he told me, he was like, he was trying to explain it to me. He said, Richard Petty's a lot like George Strait. It's great. We love George St. Great. And then he was saying, he's, he's, he's, he's, it's everything. The show, the fight, like, the, like, the grit. And, and that was his favorite, you know, so that was his big comparison to explain it to

me. Because I'd kind of needle him. He'd be watching racing all day. I mean, my sister would kind of like play with him and say, we like this person more. And so just to get him upset, you know, get us to kick us out of the room. A huge fan. I'm amazed by that because I, when I was watching the NWA and as a kid, I didn't like Flair. Flair was kind of the bad guy, you know, he was all taught. He was all taught.

Now, they were a bunch of Flair fans. I mean, you know, and obviously he's bigger than life and especially here in Charlotte. And, and a great guy. But I grew up being, I. your dad was my favorite. Magnum was kind of like his protege or side kit, you know, as he was coming up. And it was them two against the four horsemen, you know.

And so that's, I mean, I'd never heard that. No, it's amazing. Yeah, pretty incredible. I still, like, so Flair, when you're so ingrained as a kid that he's the enemy, that him and Arne and Tully and old, these are the enemy. Yeah. That even when you get to like 15, 16, when you got to smartened up a little bit, that you still, you know, still don't know.

I'd used Arne Anderson as a manager for me. Oh, my God. Really? Yeah, for when I was at AEW, I used him as a manager for two years. And it was solely to, I think this would be fun, to take one of his rogues. Yeah.

I don't have him right now, you know, I don't have him to be there ringside with me. So who better than one of these rogue gallery, one of these guys who spent their time beating him up, bloodying them up, but they made millions of dollars together. Yeah, Flair's unique. You mentioned Magnum, and Magnum's such a, I'd say it's a deep cut by today's standards,

and not the younger audience may not know. I mean, there's so many what-ifs about had Magnum not had the wreck. He was massive, dude. Yeah, and he, so they did this, I don't think Magnum will mind me telling this story, but they did a show at the forum in L.A., which was always a little tricky when Crockett, NWA would go to the forum, but they had a great show.

Why? Was it? Just because they were here, Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, you know, Florida, Vince up north, there was only two territories left, but some of these markets were up for grabs still. And like that was one of them. LA can, they get TBS, you know, they'll watch it.

Had a great show at the forum and it's, my mom went into labor, so they flew back again. One of the reasons that they ran out of money is they had all these private planes and they're, you know, so my dad's having a party in the sky to try and make my birth on the other side here in Charlotte at Presbyterian Hospital. And Magnum is on the flight with him,

and a wrestler named Mani Fernandez, The Raging Bull. Yes. Arne Anderson is also on that flight. I think at the time they didn't want anyone knowing that because you know, you know, can't be in the flight. So they just, they just get absolutely wasted, just beyond hammered. And my aunt Bobby is with my mom. I'm basically, I popped out at this point, you know, beyond hammered.

And my dad decided that he was going to pick my godfather in this moment. moment. So he so he it was up between the raging bull and Magnum T.A. And he picked Magnum, but this is again one of these moments where they're just flinging it. You know, like who knows? There's a photo of me. I'll have to find it. When he gets to the hospital, he just, he's holding me. He had got there right when I got out and he was holding me. And you can tell. Band-Aid on his head. He had deep black circles under his eyes already, but they're even deeper. Just he looks an absolute mess. My aunt Bobby was always, she did all the work, and then he came in for the last moment. For the pictures.

For the big for the picture. Presbyterian Hospital, the waiting room, they got, Arne and them ordered pizzas. There's pizzas stacked sky high. It looks like they had been wrestling out there and the couches are flipped over. I mean, they were just, this is 80s, wild. And they were on top of the world. But Magnum had forgot until I was like 20 years old, I think. And I finally told him, I go, you know, you're my godfather?

Oh, my gosh. Yes, I do. I was at the, he's at like the christening and all that. But he's one of the most complimentary, nicest guys about modern wrestling. And you don't find that a lot with the luminaries, as I like to say. Most of the time they're telling us how we're not doing it correctly. He's one that just sees like, no, this is people are hot. This is good.

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Yep. You and your sister go out to the West Coast by yourself for a year. Yeah. And this acting class just seems like just some, I mean, there must be a million, right? Yeah. Right. And you just found this one place that became your home for a year. Yeah.

How did you get connected to this? What was the acting class? What was the group? So Howard Fine, this is the name, Howard Fine, Acting Studio in L.A., very prominent teacher. It is. Yeah. Very and very sometimes prominent behind the scenes.

A lot of private coaching. That was the majority of his business, I believe. Why did you want to go there? DDP, Diamond Dallas Page had gone to another wrestler, had gone to L.A., met Howard, fell in love with Howard, the person, the coach, everything. And we had no clue what we would be doing. So we needed some sort of structure, something. This was a lost year.

And my fear was I wasn't physically big enough to be a wrestler. Right. I'd seen it on TV for so many years. I wasn't computing that modern wrestling. I'm one of the bigger guys now in modern wrestling, which is shocking. And I don't know if that should be the case, but it's gotten lighter, lighter heavyweights, but at the time I wasn't sure. So my plan was, all right, I'm going to get this acting thing going. I'll be a famous actor.

Then I can just jump into wrestling because I'm a famous actor. It's a terrible plan, super plan. And I didn't love it. I loved Howard. I was a stage manager there to pay for the second round of classes. I loved it. But it was more like for me, I was learning stuff that I could apply to wrestling very much. Howard's teaching works for wrestling exactly the same way as it works for someone on stage.

But it was also really just good, like when you get into those classes, a lot of emotional recall, a lot of having to get inside yourself and find those things. That's kind of, I feel like, healthy in a way. you don't have it all bottled up. There's a way to kind of find it and become emotionally available. And he was really good at teaching that. I still talk to Howard today and I still think about Howard a lot of times in the ring. Howard, for example, referee, right?

Referee is behind you and somebody hit somebody with a steel chair. How'd the referee not hear it? Like, you know, like Howard's the type of find a different way to do that spot. Find a different way. You hit the guy in the gut with the chair and the, you know, then there's no noise. You snub them in the side of the neck, something. There were these little things that just because wrestling is so broad and sports entertainment hits such a broad,

it doesn't mean we can't be at a higher level of storytelling and psychology. So he's in my head a lot. So my feelings about that, I'm thinking you're, you know, I don't know, 18, 19 years old. Yeah. You're going out to the West Coast. I'm a father. You're a father. How did, I would be worried about.

your ability to not, you know, make good decisions, you know, and be able to make, you know, have that experience to be productive with so many distractions and pitfalls in that environment. Like, how did you survive it? So two things were happening. One was because of my amateur wrestling success, my dad had this implicit trust in me because I did this, I committed to it. I was basically wrestling year-round doing the camps and everything. So he had this trust in me that I wasn't going to get into drugs or find some unsavory elements and dive into that.

So he had that trust, but also at the same time, him and my mother were like rekindling their romance. They were going on trips, all kinds of stuff. I missed so many days of high school senior year that the, and I had to find GPA, but the principal told me is like, if you miss one more day, you can't legally pass. You can't graduate. Please don't miss another day. And I did that because they were always gone. Going to Mexico, going snorkeling. I was, eh, I'm not going to college.

I'm going to be a wrestler or be an actor or whatever it is. But they were rekindling their romance. And again, my sister Teal, she did not like that there was a big difference in how we were. Teal had a curfew. He kept eyes on everything that Teal did. Me, I could be gone for three days. And he'd be like, he's fine. He's good.

Yeah. I was like a cat. You know? But yeah, that was happening at the same time. So I think he didn't have his big concerns about it. And it didn't last that long. We're there for the year and then I had to come back to him. Your sister went?

Yeah. So she was a bit of a guiding influence? Big time. My sister Teal, until I met Brandy, my wife, my sister Thiel was my best friend. Didn't know it. Right. You know, it's your older sister, you know. And my older sister was, I was in the like preppy, popular group in school and stuff like that.

My sister was not. My sister was wearing full makeup while she was in elementary school, leather jacket. Madonna was her hero. My dad was very big on Express Yourself however you want. But she had a unique, she was popular in her own way. She had a heck of her reputation. My first day at school, this sounds terrible. I love my sister so much.

I hope she appreciates me telling the story. But my first day of high school, she was a senior. I was a freshman. I thought, oh, well, we'll run into each other. We're brother and sister. Cool. I'm in school. one time with her you know i'm walking down the hall this is the first day of school and on the other side

of the little guardrail my sister's got some other girl shoved up against a locker whoa telling her i mean reading her the riot act about something rumor that was spread or whatever and i just kept walking yeah just kept i was you know teal teal's teal gonna teal gonna teal but uh yeah it was uh she was out there with me and i i had to leave her uh to come to come home and i always felt bad about that but she's again one of my best friends to this day did she enroll in acting school as well or did she just move out there she was she was the more actor in our she wanted to be she that's what she really that was a passion and a dream and a goal for her far more than it was for me okay so she she just followed her lead a little bit more uh and she was she was over 21 so she could actually

enjoy la to a little bit i was just a kid yeah um at the time and that was who i you know this was my thunder buddy you know lightning's going off in the neighborhood and I'd run down to her room and sleep on the floor at the foot of her bed you know so like I always kind of have gravitated towards her so you decided to come home yes um that was like a a light switch like uh I'm I'm out of here I'm got to go back it was really a humbling right when you think you're going to do something and remember he had this trust in me so it was really humbling to go home and say hey I got to start over from scratch. You know, that conversation was,

I want to get into pro wrestling. And you've known that. I've always wanted to get into it. But I need your blessing. Otherwise, I'm still going to do it. But it's a lot more helpful if you're on board with this. You know who I can go to. You know what I can do.

You can help me get a personal trainer to, you know, build my body up all this. And he wasn't upset about it. as much as I think he knew far more than me. This was a heavy decision I was making because he was in wrestling his whole life. This is his life's work till his last days. So I think he knew more than anything.

You're jumping into something that's going to be your life. It's not a small thing. It's going to be your life. You've got to make sure you want it. But right away, that's what he told me. He said, well, if you're going to do it, you're going to do it to be the best. So we're going to send you here.

We're going to send you here. He had sent me to a group to train. with before I went to the training so that and then tell them hey you've never been trained before he had tried to like rig the system of a bit like load the deck so that I knew what I was doing yeah and and he was very very supportive and then the moment I got called up from the developmental system because they plucked me early just probably based on my name he took his self off the writing team he he wanted to go do something else he thought it would be a conflict of interest there's some dads and I'm positive you've seen this there are some dads in our our business

who are hip next to their children yeah they are they're I don't think there's anything wrong with it but it's very different my dad you didn't get away I wouldn't even consider that that would even be a possibility in wrestling we have it we have it in you see it in sports and you see it in racing a little bit where the dads the dad's actually responsible for some of the funding to get that yeah it even possible right for kids to race and so forth they're And as a father, you could certainly appreciate that and understand their, you know, their urgency to sort of help their child make it. But in wrestling, you would think that the business would say, yeah, Dad, you're going to stand over here. And this is, you know, if he's coming in, if your child's coming in to work, you know, we on them.

You know, they're ours and you're going to have to go over this way. I wonder when you went into the developmental system and you started wrestling in front of some of the people that are that are in the business I have this sort of idea in my mind that it probably a lot of things came really natural to you. You grew up around this, right? When I watched dad race on the racetrack,

I was watching him race. I'd cheering him on and want him to win, but I was also learning things. I didn't even realize I was learning. I go out on the racetrack and, oh, this makes sense. This feels, you know, oh, this side drafting and all the things. Dad used to get taught. They used to think that Dad was really good at drafting.

Daytona, Talladega. That came so natural to me because I knew exactly what I needed to do as soon as I got out there. And so when it started happening in the car, I'm like, yep, this is making perfect sense. Yeah. And so when you got in the ring to really do it, you know, did it come easy? I know it was hard work to get to where you are today, but the physical act of wrestling, right? From what I've watched and seen,

people were taken aback a bit by how good you were out of the box. To me, I was surprised that they thought. I had maybe some early fundamentals. We're talking running the ropes. Right, yeah. Taking a back bump. The basics. I had those because he had had his school.

I had been around other people. sitting there on the sidelines absorbing absorbing absorbing I had that but I'll be honest it didn't come to me and I was surrounded by much better athletes right much and also guys who'd been doing this a little longer and when I was at OVW they stuck me with a guy named Sean Spears still my friend of this day the purpose was I didn't know what I was doing yeah so you guys being a tag team you two you know good looking guys and young guys this will work out but Sean do you lead these matches you you explain and he guided me all the way to where I got called up before he ever did it didn't come naturally and it uh I tried to steal and not so much

steal I tried to get my education from people who were different from my dad I really want to give me a different I can't be like him yeah can't you know I do the elbow now I didn't do it for like 15 years just because that's his, that's his. Now it's different. But I tried so hard to pick other people's brains, people who didn't even like my dad. You know, there's all this contention about whenever you're someone's boss and his time as a booker and a wrestler. So he made a lot of enemies. And I tried to always take those enemies and see, is there something I can learn from them? Something, what were they mad about, you know, and then find out if Dusty was right or if he was wrong, but didn't come naturally.

When I was a child, we hung around with Nelson Royals family a little bit. And so he has his western store here in Morrisville. And right in the back woods up where his house was was this nonchalant shed. And inside that shed was a ring. And so we would get in there and play every once in a while. Nice. So I imagine you grew up around thousands and thousands of rings, right? Yeah.

Are you, as a teenager, as, you know, in between your dad and all the guys doing what they do to train or practice or whatever even during, you know, I don't know, but are you climbing in that thing? Yeah. And so like the first time you actually get into a ring to get after it, you've made this decision in your life that you're going to go after this, right? It's a comfortable place. It's not like this, you know, for other people in your position at 20 years old. they had to be shi-pants how nervous they were and you're like man

this is my home I'm 100% comfortable here yeah I mean I was comfortable and specifically rings I was setting up rings when I was 15 years old you know his independent company

referee I'd set the ring up not an easy gig to do yourself just bored after board after board and so I did I did always feel like it was an area that was my second home, you know, and until today, like the wrestling ring, I get on my knees and I kiss the mat almost every match. It's really, it is. It's where I feel the most at home. Yeah, no, but I had, I had that confidence from being around it so much,

but also I was fairly disliked from my peers in that developmental crop. Why? Cause of. No experience. No experience. No experience. not even 21 years old. He's just dusty son, which wasn't a lie. How were they different? Were they older? Well, maybe older.

You know, WWE now recruits very young and recruits at the college level, athletes, athletes. Then it was independent wrestlers. He'd been doing this for 10 years. Yeah, exactly. Journeymen. I totally got it, respected it. But I can't apologize for being me.

I'm still going to put in the same amount of work that you're going to put in, maybe even more. And that's really the lesson of it is take that dislike, take that situation. The door was opened for you. So do more than these other guys and these other girls could possibly do outwork them. They might have the talent. They might have the experience. But if you outwork them, good things will come.

And that's been my mindset. You know, I know like comparisons to the Thief of Joy. John Cena hit me with that quote the other day. It's a great quote. It really is. But so much of what we do is comparison. Oh, such and such is doing really good. I want to be better.

I want to, so much as a comparison. You just have to be selective with how you do it. Hey, Cody, so I am so intrigued with the whole concept of the riders, okay? And you just said something in the business and how it all ties together. And I could ask you 100 questions, but you just said something a little bit ago where you said your dad took himself off the writing team. So, okay, so he's in the writing team. Now, my first question on that is, did you agree with that? Did you understand what he was doing or did you have resentment for?

No, I agreed. I wanted him to be at a distance. But also, he wasn't, he was part of the creative, the writing team. My dad was an idea guy. He wasn't sending a lot of emails. He barely knew how the computer worked. That was like a running gag. They got him in 2005.

He was an old wrestler. That was in the best of ways. He had those ideas and booking concepts. Okay. in a year, I want this guy to be here. Here are the things that we will do. But writing, and I have a whole new respect for this writing team that WW has,

Ed Kosky, Ryan Ward, Ryan Callahan, my guy, Brian. I have a whole new respect for them because you've got to write that somebody has to write these guys' ideas. Somebody has to format, formatting a show, which when I was away, I started, I formatted the shows at AW for a hot minute

and then quickly realize it wasn't great at that. But they, I have a whole new respect. The thing is they're writers, but they're also, I like to think of them as producers. A lot of times you do these backstage segments and things of that nature, and they're the person who's they're directing, they're producing, they're working with the cameras.

They do a lot of things. They wear a lot of hats, that writing team. And when I was away from WGB, I thought the writing team was the dumbest thing ever. I thought, why do you need 40 people? Well, you were mad. Yeah. You were mad.

And we'll get to that in a second. Well, no, I just, I thought like, why, why do you need all this? Why do you need all that? And then I realized through trial and error doing my own interviews, like, oh, I can, I can hit a home run on my own. But also, I am capable of a catastrophic strikeout at the plate. And maybe it would have been nice to have somebody there to go, just don't say this. Or say it a little differently.

Yeah. So I guess ultimately what I'm wondering, if you go back to when you're trying to cut your teeth and you're getting him and you guys are you know you got these guys that are working and and maybe they're a little uh they're hating on you a little bit uh who at that level who are you working for who are you trying to impress one would assume like somebody that like myself that if you can just get in with the writers yeah then you've got it made sure is that who you're trying to you know show out for and and i'm sure it's more complicated than that but like That's my question for you.

It is and it isn't in a sense that I was at Ohio Valley Wrestling. It was 4,400 Shepherdsville Road. I drove the ring truck. So NXT today, the developmentist was them they have today. They have constant access to creative resources, writers. They have all this information. OVW is treated like a separate territory, like a farm league. So once a month somebody would visit.

That could be an agent. An agent, someone who helps put the matches together. that could be a writer. That could be an EVP, an SVP. So it really varied in terms of you, you basically have to build, again, like a campaign, you have to build allies, people who believe in you and will say, hey, he'll do good. I watched him do this. He'll be okay. He's going to make it. I think at the time when I was in OVW, the one that I needed to impress the most was a man named Bruce Pritchard. Who's that? Bruce Pritchard, he was his manager in the WWF day, his name brother love he'd done many characters came from texas and he was a genius remains a genius

in the industry but he was vince's right hand he again you need someone to write down all these ideas he need someone to form you know formulate it and Bruce came down and knew knew what he was looking at in terms of new me and knew that my dad cared and he could have done it as a favor for my dad he could have but the way the best favor he could do to my dad is lead me in the correct way and to this day i still bruce is still plugged in at wb is the main guy uh when i lost at russomania and i was came i was adamant that i'm walking up that ramp i'm not going side ramp as we call it or losers lane i'm this is the end of the show is 80 something thousand people here i want to look them in the eye say sorry or say hey we're gonna we're gonna get them eventually whatever it was

but when i walked up there i wasn't sure i was ready to walk into what we call gorilla this is what the name of the room is right before you go out, Gorilla. I wasn't sure I was ready to walk into Gorilla. So I took a second and he came out the curtain. And it was just him and I, and we had a nice moment. And I'll never forget it. And I, in my mind, I'm going, well, I need to reverse this situation. And then we have this moment again.

But yeah, Bruce has been a big part of my career that I didn't realize was such a big part of my career until I got a little bit older. You wonder why it's name Gorilla? Yeah, I'd love to know. Okay, it's, you know why, right? No. Oh, okay. Gorilla Monsoon was this amazing wrestler, just an amazing man in general,

but he was also one of the big lieutenants in the early days of the WWF, you know, one of Vince Senior, Vince Jr., one of the right hands, and just an amazing, he was great at wrestling, but an amazing commentator. That was where he would sit when he was running the shows or keeping eyes on the time and doing all the business. He would sit at a little table that was right by the pipe and drape, right by where you walk out the curtain. And now it's like, it looks like a spaceship.

It's a room. Yeah, it's got ATVs. It's a control center. There's spy cams everywhere. Never say anything bad at work. Someone's watching you at all times. It's just, it has different lighting effects. They film in there sometimes.

Yeah. But yeah, it's all after guerrilla monsoon. All the important people are in there. It's kind of like the NASCAR hauler. Yeah. Right. It is. Yeah, I guess so.

But it's like, I never knew that that existed. and you, it's a, it's a pretty neat, you'll see some of, you'll see this room. I know the fans are aware of it and it's part of the show at times, but it's a really cool space where when I first got to experience that, it's the last place you'll be before you go out to wrestle for the world championship, right? Yeah. And there's people in there that, Matt, that are going to say some things to you that can be really profound, right?

And it's your last opportunity to really be understanding of the moment. Yeah. Right. And so, and I guess, too, when you come back, it's that affirmation. Yeah. Right? Getting some affirmation from people that are running the show. If you get a standing ovation in Guerrilla, you made it.

Yeah. You get a last night that Chad, Gable, and Gunther had this amazing main event. And they came back and there's nothing we can do, but clap for that piece of business. You said you get some profound wisdom. You do, but also it can be very distracting. You know, when you're zoned in and you're going to go do your business. But then at like the big show's Undertaker might have taken a chair. And it's Undertaker.

He can take whatever chair he wants, but he might be sitting there. Austin might be sitting there. Somebody that's like, one of the goats. Oh my gosh. One of the goats right here, guys. Yeah. You'd rather not know they were there. Yeah.

You have to find yourself in a situation where if they do talk to you, you can't just be caught in the like, oh, this is crazy. They're giving me that you have to really hear it. Yeah. Like really hear it. No. And then you use it or you don't when you go out there. It's all on you.

But yeah, it's nice when it fills up with the takers, the Austens, Flair. I love more the merrier. Just just make it a single. That'd be tough. Yeah. You know, if you mentioned last night, I'm just curious. So you didn't fight last night.

I did not. Right. But what was your role? And we'll get back to your story in a second because it is amazing. But I am curious. Monday Night Raw. Yeah, on Monday Night Rawl. What did you do?

So last night I did what we would call the Dark Match, which is the Dark Match. Oh, you did the Dark Match? We just learned about this. Yeah. So the advertised match that you try to sell tickets off of, sometimes they can't tell you what's going to be on the show. Surprises. The show is very, you know, changes.

It's fluid. So the advertised dark is what you send to a market. You know, you send to this arena. Such and Touch is wrestling, such and touch. And that's a cool feeling because you can always pretend that you, the ticket sales were yours, you know, if you're in the advertised. It's not always the case. But I was the advertised dark.

I wrestled a guy, Dominic Mysterio. And I also, my day there yesterday was filled with a lot of, I'd say extracurricular elements. We do a lot of pre-tapes, a lot of promos, we have a lot of international sponsors. Once you walk in, they've got you doing stuff. Had the fortune and the pleasure of more the responsibility and honor of doing a make-a-wish yesterday,

which is just such an amazing, humbling reminder of what it is that you are doing and can do for somebody. And then I did about, I was just telling somebody in the, lobby I did about 90 seconds of actual wrestling right it beat me up a little bit all right here we we go boot in the gut here with Cody cutter we're going home you know just because it's a long night they're excited uh you can't not so we were in a situation not to non ego here but we were in a situation where we have a lot of fans who are now who came back and they enjoy what they came back

when I came back you know and there's plenty of other over popular stars I'm not but we can't disenfranchise them we can't have They're there and they bought all these shirts. Sure. Got to do something out there. Because, you know, sometimes storylines put you in a situation where you're off for a few weeks. Yeah. So you got to remind, like, so important, and I learned this from my time away as much as my time with WWB, so important these live event, these arenas.

It's great if you have 11,000 people, if you've got to sell out in an arena, but you have to give them something that they'll come back. Sure. You can't just bank on the, this is a weekly business. Monday Night Roll is live every week. You have to give them something to come back. And some of the shows, when we do these marathon four or five hour shows, that's too much for a family. And you got to give them a nice package, a nice efficient package. And WDB, a very well-oiled machine when it comes to that.

From that dark match, are you hurting today? No. No, man. I got a high pain tolerance. My other buddies are falling apart at this point. And I mean like no sense of bravado. I don't think I'm tougher than anybody. But I just, I've been doing it since I was 20.

And even that 15 as a referee, the ring hurts. You know, if you don't know, it hurts. The ropes can hurt. They build a whole callous up on your ribcage. But just for me, a lot of the guys always tell me I'm crazy because I just, I don't know, maybe I'm into it. Maybe I'm into the pain a little bit. So no, not hurt, no issues.

was able to walk away unscathed. But again, I found out that I was not bulletproof when I tore my peck last year. Because I had gone so long, no injuries, no issues. And to the degree, and this is an unhealthy outlook, I didn't even really believe in injuries. Yeah, obviously people can get injured. But what we do, you can disguise it. You can, I just, I didn't have time for the inconsistent individuals who were always getting hurt. and then I got hurt.

Yeah. And I found out like, nope, very real. This can happen, especially as we get older. 30s, you know, in the middle of the pack there. Like, I got you, got you. Yeah. So now that high tolerance for pain, which dusty had too, which is just, I think, a genetic thing.

Yeah. Going back to your first run in WWE, Stardust, a bit of a spinoff of your brother. Oh, gosh. Yeah. us, right? So how I know that you look, I know that it's not your decision. You don't have all total control over all of this. But you, I admire how you went into that 100%, right? Like you, you can read somebody just looking at their face and tell whether they're really

about this. Yeah. And like, that would have been a tough sell for me. But you went 100% into it for years, right? It was about a year longer than I thought it was going to be. Your brother, your brother's had this gold dust deal for a long time. Yeah. And he had at the same time, I mean, I felt like that he stuck with it. Yeah.

And he went, he went with it. And I was kind of surprised at how long. you did you did go with that and how long how how how how how how you tried to make that work yeah um if you could go i mean i know it's really a useless conversation of what ifs but if you could go back to that point in your life right is there any way you avoid the route that you had to take into the independent circuit is there anything that you think man you know what i wish i knew this or could have said this or maybe I could have went to this person. Yeah. To be able to sort of break the cycle. I'd say the only thing that could have changed the trajectory was had I been, and there was no way

I was going to know this, but the guys I was jealous of, the guys I wanted to be in their spots, there was a level of work they were doing, whether I saw it or not, that was next level. And there are plenty of people to blame when it comes to start us. But as I have gotten older, more and more of the blame I put on myself because it's one thing to stand up for yourself two years in when it's bottled up and it's ready to blow versus had I fought this battle six months in had I bought had I had I had I had I had I come to work every week and said this doesn't work for me if it's what we're doing okay I'll do it and execute but voicing those concerns being a professional being a part of the process I had thought the process that's why that you know

people use that trust the process phrase I even caught myself using it the other day and I hate this phrase because the process doesn't always your your work creates the process and I think that would have been a difference maker had I looked at somebody who was at the top spot and said okay what do they have and not just compare but let me work harder let me do better and if even if I had not got that maybe having sounded the alarm earlier that this was not good I was not happy with this this is a step back from where you had me and it's getting step back step back step back but you didn't i i i just you're uh was it your you felt like you weren't um established enough to make that claim i felt like at the time when i when it finally set in it wasn't so

much established as it was i felt insignificant to the show you know we all we talk about undesirable to undeniable like i felt undesired yeah And from a show perspective, if you're the guys putting this show together, that wasn't incorrect. They didn't need Stardust. You've got John Sina. He's wrestling the rock. You've got this. You've got these things.

They didn't need me. And it's not a fair industry. So I needed to know what to do to make them need me. Like, I want them to need me. So what could have you done if you would have done it six months in? What kind of creative liberties would you have been afforded? So the biggest thing, and this is going to sound silly, but this is the truth, the biggest way to kind of turn your fortunes around in the sports entertainment wrestling space is get in the best shape of your career. Get because it's still a vanity business.

You're still out there half naked, oiled up. You're still out there. And also the guys behind this operation, they still have a love for bodybuilding. They're in great shape. They're in custom-made tailor suits. You know, Taylor made custom suits when they come to work. That's a huge, like it's one of the first things I tell people, because it helps your mindset, too, get in the best possible shape.

Now, had I gotten the best possible shape of my career, and had I gotten, hey, I'm telling you I want to be Cody Rhodes and not start us, let me get new gear to present that to you. Let me have this all done up. Instead of doing that, I just bottled. You know, I let it swell. I didn't do the things. And I think I thought, oh, if I don't do the, if I,

do them, they'll still not. But that's not the case. It really is. There's so many young guys and young girls that it's the first thing. I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong, but if you get in the best shape of your career, it turns heads. It makes people, you know, do do that. At Star Duss all of a sudden had 8% body fat and six pack and shredded and was handsome again. Maybe they'd, what are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing with this in this outfit? You know, what are we doing? They wouldn't have put a mask on it, right? So at one point, you know, I had the paint for the Stardust run, but there was an actual mask that was originally pitched.

And I put it on my, this was an area where I spoke up. I put it on my head, and it's like the classic condom blowing up. It looks so bad. And I get like there's an element of humor to what I'm going to do here, but they can't, you got to be laughing with you. They can be just laughing at you. Yeah, so it was, it looked like a condom meets electro from the old Spider-Man comics. And that was one of the few that I,

I told, I was Vince, I told him, I was like, I can't do the mask. It just looks so bad. And then I went and had to shave my head like Dustin. So the tradeoff was just, oh gosh. Sounds awful. Yeah, no, no. But I was glad I never, I'm glad the mask never saw the light of day. I don't know how long.

Stardust did have actually had a couple milestones and had some fun moments. And I did go into it fully committed to try and change it, but it just, it wasn't going to get me anywhere. You said you, the last couple of years were really difficult. Yeah. You know, I think everybody can relate to having a period of their life where professionally they're, you know, that's sort of bottom of the barrel. Yeah. And it's difficult to figure out a process of a way to get out, but you leave, right?

You go to the independent circuit. Like, I mean, it's a hell of a freaking story. I mean, it's amazing now. But going back to that moment, I'm sitting there thinking, golly, that must have been like, okay, going out of this store, may never be able to come back through it. I would assume that, yeah. Yeah. It was so personally scary, but it was my job.

You know, my dad had passed away at this point, and I had kind of absorbed his role. It was also my job to present a front that it wasn't, we weren't, it wasn't as risky as I made it out to be. It was so risky. Like I joked with people all the time. Oh, you know, I was actually one of the wrestlers who was good with my money. I'm going to be okay outside of W-DB. That's not true. Right.

I was just like, it was check to check, and then the checks are going to end. And now it's indie payday. Indy payday. And you, all these different, you create these revenue streams and do these things. So it was very risky. And God bless her, my wife. wife just believed. Had she not believed, this wouldn't have worked.

She believed. How close to your dad's passing was this going on? I think I hung around for maybe a year. So when your dad passes away, you lose this sort of, you lose the bumpers in the bowling alley, right? I keep you out of the gutter, right? Not so much the gutter, but really like, you know, my dad was like, hey, man, if I had a major decision, right? damn, that's easy. I'll just go ask him what he thinks.

I might not love what he's going to tell me, but I know that I'm not even going to bullshit right. I'm going to get the truth. And so when that's gone, and you're sitting there with your career at stake, like trying to make the right decision, trying to decide whether this is what I need to do. You've got great support from Brandi, your wife.

But still, like in your mind, are you thinking, are you wondering, like, you know, am I making this decision because I'm a little bit psychologically distraught over? the death of my father and the mourning of that and the lot the void that that's created right so that i need is this like a massive mistake right because i really don't know i can't i can't know whether i'm making the right decision or not did you have those moments in that in that you know year year and a half two years after of questioning these decisions what what i think really

took over for me was definitely such grief, not knowing how to deal with grief. And then having the grief, I mean, obviously something that you, very few people may be understand this, but

having the grief regularly in your face, you know, you went back to the track. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I had to go back to the ring and fans want to tell you how sorry they are, how said, no, no, sure. Me too.

You know, like he was my favorite. That's what I always say when fans say, hey, your dad was my favorite. I say he was mine too, you know. But what became of that was whether right, wrong, or indifferent, I didn't have the phone call anymore. I did not have a mentor anymore that I wanted to reach out to. So what I had was, here's what I learned.

I'm going to do everything my way. 100%. Whether good, bad, I'm going to do it my way. And I learned a lot of this from a lot of, of the tricks I used and things I did to rattle the cages and and this battle when I was going against W.W. It was stuff I learned at WWE. Like, hey, you guys taught me this. I was in the ring with you. I was in the ring with you. I had the Dusty Roads lifetime experience. I think I can make some decisions. I think I'm good enough now to this is good for wrestling. This is good for

this match. This is good for the city. Whether right wrong or indifferent, I was doing it my way. And there's a lot of incidents in that run that are not right. But I was, nope, this is what we're doing here, folks. This is it. And I tell people all the time, I say, if you want to look at what letting someone get, like, sometimes I get in my own way as when it comes to my own creative.

And there's a prime example when I was in this company named Ring of Honor, wonderful company that really took care of me. And Joe Koff was the guy who got me, amazing. but they just let me do whatever. W.W.E guy, people are coming to see him, you know, because they were smaller crowds. He's got a big autograph line. That's whatever. And one of the things I did was I had two mascots that were people in bear suits.

It didn't make a lick of sense and they'd be at the signing stamping with me. One was a business bear. One was the drug-free bear. It was all this nonsensical, like, it had stemmed off a YouTube series. So it had roots. But it was, if I look at the first, if I look at the first, photos and you see me with these two bears behind me. That's what creative freedom gone too far. That's what it looks like. I loved it. But they're like very much. Even, you know, as my time at

AEW is the executive vice president, also in my way a little bit. I, you know, like someone else make a decision for me here, you know, because I at that point had made all these decisions. I'm making, I'm doing it my way. You need guidance. You need those people who've been there and done it. And yeah, So I had some big home runs and some big misses. On the independent circuit, there's these great shots of you coming out and these, you know, like you say, you're in a gym with 50 people to look on your face, though, you could have been in the middle of a Madison Square Garden. You know, your ability to go down to that level and seemingly appreciate the climb back, right?

And to come out into a room like that and give them the A1 effort. How, I guess, you know, not that it was easy, but how in the first, say, first year of that, right, reality's setting in, right? You've left the big house and you're going through this process and you're like, I guess you're, you were familiar with what you were getting yourself into in the independent circuit. I thought so. Right? I thought it's humbling? Yes, humbling, but I was lucky.

You know, you've seen some of that footage, the most people really followed. Yeah. I had a good plan, and people really were, they followed, and it just felt like, okay, I told them I was going to be the best and that I had been screwed over, and they're going to, they're going to see. So now I had the responsibility to, if you don't want to, you don't want to, you don't, make it work, you don't get another chance, right? Not like the level that I got the other chance. So with those, one of the big pieces too was independent shows.

There's no lighting grid, you know? It's a high school gym, maybe they got lighting, but for the most part, it's just house-lit. So you can see how and you can look in people's eyes. And at W.W.E. It's something that I should have learned earlier but hadn't. And all the greats really have is they'll find that thing. fan that kid, that family, whatever, they'll find them and they'll just see. What are they thinking? You know, they want me to get up right now and beat this guy up? Or are they just now starting to like,

come on, man, you know, how much longer do we? And that was so, I mean, what a great education. I had the greatest education ever with WWE. It was 10 years of the biggest company in sports entertainment but it's such a great education to get go let's go down to the street level essentially let's let's get underground and see because there were these stars that were on independence that were doing just wild stuff yeah and i had no hey i'm i'm wasn't going to be that stiff old no this is how it's supposed to be done this is what i learned no let's do whatever you want let's do whatever if i'm at if i'm have the ability to do it let's do it uh and there was just some fun. It was such a great education. Didn't you say you buy that bypassed on your first attempt? Because I remember in the

documentary, you said that you were even surprised how quick you were brought up. I mean, next thing you know, you're on Monday night roll. And it felt like that they, you know, to keep using racing analogies, they took you right to cup. And you didn't even get to go appreciate late models and trucks and ARCA and all those things that are actually very important in the developmental stage. I did it in reverse. You did it in reverse. I did it in reverse because he's Dusty son. We love Dusty. He's an okay looking guy.

Let's let's let's, let's, I was given so much grace by the fans. Had I not had, had my name been, you know, Cody Jones, I would have lasted three weeks maybe. But those fans had such a good like, no, we're, we're, we're, he's dusty son. He's got to get better. We'll see. We'll see. and they gave me so much grace and so much. I mean, I grew up in front of them.

Yeah. We've been doing this now, 20 years old and 38, wrestled in every one of these cities on a previous night before. And now it's like the run is happening for the very first time that we're in. But some of them have sitting there. They've seen all of it. They've watched me grow up. Yeah.

So how were there moments on that path through the independence where you're wondering whether, you know, this is what you need to be doing? well i'll say this about the i was lucky that there's this great email that i got sent a really wonderful guy named Gabe sepulski sent me this email when i first got to the indies i said welcome to the indies so and here he describes listen the crowds aren't always going to be that big the pay it may not even be present you might have to chase down your pay uh you might be splitting hotel rooms with two guys you're going to be in cars with four guys you're going to be in cars with four or five guys.

He's describing how worth it it's all going to be, but how different it might be for somebody like me. I always joke with them, didn't have that experience. We were, the people were really coming to the shows. There was a resurgence in independent wrestling. So business was good. But it was really,

where I'd say I had doubts was it was very carny. It was very carny in a sense that, you know, you know, like the colonel with Elvis. He was always looking for the, it became, you had to look for the, these revenue streams, you know. For example, WDB, I sign autographs all day. Nobody pays me anything. Independent show, it's like a convention. X for the picture, X for the combo.

Oh my gosh, didn't know any of this. And I don't like taking money from people, but that's a big part of how it works. You have to find these revenue streams. My buddy now is named Matt Cardona. I really hope he comes back to WB. He was, he's outstanding. He's going through the exact same thing. after a while that starts to feel a little taxing.

You want some structure. You want some security. And there's not as many places in our world to get that security. So that was the only time, especially Brandy, I want her to have the best life and us to have a good home and all this. And you can survive. And hell, you can be viral moments popping up. but that doesn't necessarily equal an infrastructure at home and and financially.

And that was the only area where I thought, and that's what led me to do the original all-in with Matt and Nick and R.O.H, of course. And then that led me to the next step was, okay, well, I don't want to do it in a carney since I don't want to be a carny. It feels disingenuous, right? I want to be me. But I need a bigger platform then. I need to get this on TV, what we're doing,

so that we're provided for a little bit more. So All-In. That was this sort of, you talk about the independent circuit, sort of getting this momentum. All-in becomes this event that you guys are going to bring it all together and all types of different promotions coming together, different, you know, different wrestlers from different spaces. And y'all sold it out less than an hour.

Yeah, it was, what a day. What is to me, WrestleMania is the greatest moment of my career. But, you know, in the back of my mind, I think a strong number two was that day, the tickets went on sale for All In. Because here's what people don't know about All In or here's what people suspect.

We had told everybody, hey, it's all us. It's all me, Matt and Nick. Who is Matt and Nick? Mad Nick the Young Bucks. I say Madden, yeah, sorry. They're an independent tag team who has done it completely on their own, self-made brand.

Never been with WWE. That's one of the things about them is how big they got just as a unit. All right. So we had presented as, hey, we're doing this. We're bringing all different companies together. We're breaking all the rules. We're literally going all in. Well, we did have help from a company.

Again, Ring of Honor was a company that helped produce it. But people think Ring of Honor footed the whole bill for it or we footed the whole bill. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We literally did have to go all in. We were going all in on our name alone in a sense like, yep, this is going to be that we're going to get. We had to get over 10,000 people. The man who commented on social that we couldn't put 10,000 people in arena. And I all pre-work out up at the gym, tweeted back at him.

I'll take that bet. Now we're stuck. We can't sell 5,000 tickets. We have to sell 10,000 tickets. So we did everything we possibly could. We broke every rule. I never used PayPal, but I laugh when I look back at my PayPal. all the paydays are still there from these different little things that I had to pay for to get like

road warrior animal to come over and ride his motorcycle. You know, my buddy Conrad Thompson did a convention because he said, I bet you if it sells out, people piggyback off it. You should let us piggyback. We'll do a whole convention. And you can steal some of the legends and assets and all this. It was like Woodstock for wrestling. It really was.

I walked into the hotel as the Hyatt and Schaumburg, Hoffman Estates area, which is not Chicago. People from Chicago always want to let you know it's not Chicago. It's true. I walked in there and the energy was, I mean, through the roof. The lobby was filled to the brim with fans. The bar menu, American Nightmare Cheeseburger. It was just like, it was mind-blowing. And that day, you know, before this, any of this happened,

that day when we were riding back from the press conference where I couldn't even get the mic to work at the beginning of this, here he is saying he can put on a show and the freaking mic doesn't work. Right there, we're coming back. back from that press conference and I was a fan. I'm positive, not a fan, like I'd say it was a fan. There was a fan driving us to the show, you know, we had showed up in a limo, but we hadn't planned how we were getting out of there. Nice, nice guy, I'll never forget him because he was there as we were like trying to go on the site to buy tickets and it was frozen. And I'm thinking, is the site is

frozen, we're screwed or is it blowing up? Can it crash? And it, can it crash? And it, crashed immediately. Yeah. Immediately. There was, it was 11,000 236 or two, yeah, 236. That was how many tickets she's on? Yeah, and it was 28 minutes. It was, it was, it was just, I couldn't believe it.

It was like, I said, hey, we need this, you know, that welcome to the Indies letter. Like, no, no, it can be bigger. Like, I like to think very big, very big. And then it was all in front of us and we had to execute with it and make it happen. And yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful memory. I have trouble with the fact that I no longer own the name to it, but it's also, I kind of look at it as a sense that it's not mine. It's the fans. Yeah. So let them have a good time with it. So when did you, you know, when did you realize that you were possibly going to get an opportunity to go back to WWE? I know you got, so first off, I guess, is American Nightmare. Yeah. Like how come that took so long? because it's perfect. It is.

And it's like the perfect thing. It is. And I know my brother had experimented with the nickname before. Really? Yeah, but I think when the way they presented me over in Japan, they really wanted that connection.

He's the American dream. You're the American nightmare. You're a bad guy. You're part of the Bullet Club. They really wanted it to be very clear and family business over there. Just make it real simple. But it did.

It clicked in a way that I thought, why wasn't I doing this? Yeah. This whole time. Like, every piece of it. the hair, the outfit, you know, the homelander inspired element of every bit of it. It's perfect, but it took all the time. It took all that time of my education, my experience.

It wouldn't have come to me sooner. It took all that time and seeing other wrestlers, you know, Brett Hart's giving away his shades in the front row and I want to give away my weight bell. Oh, okay, I can do it, you know, just it took time, trial and error. And you'll see that a lot with sports entertainment. came in wrestling. I use Brett Hart as an example. Austin is the greatest example. Austin was wrestling for years. Stunning Steve Austin. I was loving, you know, he went to ECW. He was doing some crazy stuff in ECW and the ringmaster. Then he becomes stone cold. But it was deep. He was

experienced enough to handle it once he got his mantle. Yes. I felt like that's why I tell people all the time if it feels like they're seeing me for the first time. I got the mantle. I got the cape and the cow. I found it. Whatever it is. And now I can, now I'm that. Now I'm at this final form or what could be and it feels like I'm able to run optimally that way. How often do you see some young, you know, wrestler come up and they have a fantastic idea, but it's mismanaged because of that very reason. That's inexperience or, you know, it could have been great had they had they just been around a while? I think you'll, you'll see it all the time and you'll see the area where if they have a great big, grand idea for who they

are, what they want to be, even as simple as like, I want to be called this. I want to be called that. The thing that's missing always is the details. The details. The devil is in the details with what we do. When you fully know every aspect of who you are out there, whether you were created by someone else or whether you found yourself, you have a different level of confidence. Okay. So then if they have it, they have the details. What is the process in which to go make that become a reality? You've got a big thing. with what we do is you've got to be on TV on a regular basis establishing yourself. You go out there every night like they've never seen you before, even if they've seen you a bazillion times. You've got to

establish yourself every week and it takes time. I remember my dad used to tell me it takes a year, takes a year minimum, two years for a guy what we call to get over, to get popular. A lot of it's seeing what they do. It can't cheer for your moves if they don't know your moves. They can't cheer for your catchphrase unless they hear it on a regular basis. It takes time and that's the area where if you're not given the time, you won't be able that that opportunity won't come. You know, it requires a lot of factors for a young guy to be given that time. By the writers. Yeah, by your writers, by your bookers, by your managers, who's ever in charge, who's ever writing that show and putting it together and has their future picked out, the biggest thing

you've got to do is not just have the great idea is you've got to earn their trust. That, that to me is it doesn't just come to you. You have to earn their trust. It's like playing quarterback and they're the coach. You have to earn their trust and that's a big way I look at everything. I want to make sure whether we have great relationships, bad relationships, whether there's been history with us or not. If you were the coach, call the play. I'm going to run what you called and yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to give it to you in the best possible way. That was something that I found so fascinating. And you learn a little bit about that during your documentary. And I never, you don't consider this unless you get a chance to sit down and really talk to a wrestler.

But you guys, you had a, somebody had a break. Maybe it was you had a break a time when you were away. And you're getting ready to go out for the match. You have been gone for months. And there's this fear in your gut that they're not going to remember you. Yeah. I never even considered. I never considered that.

Because you, you know, you guys, you guys come walk. down the ramp and you're completely confident like this is exactly how this is supposed to happen now I knew it's going to go but there's this moment in time where you're like what if they don't care yeah and that that must be um I can't I can't even find a comparison in motorsports or anything that I did that would be comparable to that but um having that fear yeah constantly feeling this pressure to matter right to always be winning and always be impressing the coach. Yeah.

It's, so I had this experience going when I returned, coming into WrestleMania. I was, we got 80,000 something people, AT&T Stadium. I was very concerned they would be indifferent or they would boo. They had every right to boo. I had left, started a completely rival promotion, ragged them, made fun of them, criticize them, did, I mean, I had gone in.

So they had every right to boo. I mean, I told my wife, it's in a couple of the backstage clips, I said, if it goes awry, go to the bus. Because I don't want you to have to deal with that if you walk in a grill and they're like, what the hell happened out there? Because, you know, if they booed, well, then I might have to be the bad guy in this match, which I'm fine with. And that's something that's like in the moment. Yeah, no, we very, Seth, who was in the ring and me coming out, we would have been able to adjust.

Yeah. But so you mentioned the confidence you have when you walk out there, and this is how it's supposed to be. I legit was almost frozen when I came up on this thing lovingly called the Cody Vader. Just a little elevator. Oh, yeah. I came up on it, and I was genuinely frozen, not in fear, but in, oh, man. Which is it?

They're excited about me being here. Like, oh, my gosh, there's signs. I mean, they had a sense I was coming. You didn't know? But there was just this love. Yeah. It was a love. How could you not know that, I mean, I don't know how you would know, but.

I didn't look at it from the perspective of they didn't care about my time away. They respected it. They understood it. It was more about, I'm just happy he's back. Like, this was his place. I'm happy. And I was able to do what very few people have ever done in the business where I brought what I built. And what was built for me.

You were, nothing was going to be created. This was you. I had the logo is the logo. The outfit is the outfit. The music cannot change. Cody Vader, all the, like the pyro, every bit of it that's part of the, what we do, has to be there and no problems. Yeah.

We're good with that. That moment, man, gives you chills when you watch it. Oh, man. Because you, the reaction to the fans, a lot of their faces are, you can see it. They're hoping it's you. Yeah. Right? You can literally see.

them hoping that this is exactly what happens in it. And it's like they're, you know, walking down stairs and looking under the tree and hoping it's that gift that you've been asking for all year long, right? And it was a really incredible moment. So has this ride since you return to WWE, it's, I mean, obviously aside from the injury with the torn peg, which was terrible.

But has this gone as planned? Has this gone as you imagined as you dreamed? I'd like to dream big. And I always, when I met with, again, Bruce Pritchard and with Vince and I said, I think I'm the best wrestler in the world. They didn't argue with me, but they also looked at me and we got a lot of best wrestlers in the wind. There's a ton of talent right now. A business is legit booming. But I feel this run has exceeded my expectations in everything.

every way just because I'm experiencing things that only my heroes ever got to experience. I'm in on the high-level discussions. I'm hearing things that I always wanted to be. Again, I wanted to be the starting quarterback. That's what I wanted to be. And being in a position where you're real close to that, you know, whereas I say Roman is the starting quarterback. He really is.

But where you're right there and you're real, and you're able to offer something so unique and so different. the run has really exceeded my expectations so much so that I have of the thought if it ends tomorrow thank gosh I had it unbelievable thank you fans for having me I mean I tell them every night I love you guys thank you I have just a different outlook and different perspective I'm of the thought it will end tomorrow always and it's slightly is getting bigger and bigger and you know that's interesting because I feel like, you know, I kind of felt like that in my, in the second half of my career or the back, back 25% of my career, I started feeling, I celebrated every win as I did my first

because I didn't know when the last one was coming. Yeah. And I think that maybe you, in a way, since you've had this sort of path and this detour, you did it backwards, right? Yeah. You have this really unique perspective and appreciation for you. exactly where you are. Yeah.

To have this second chance, to have this, you know, to live the dream that you've had all your life, you know, that your dad lived. The story is just, I mean, I watched that documentary and I'm like, damn, I mean, the whole thing coming together put in front of you in one piece is a hell of a thing. Can I interject one thing? Yeah. I don't want to gloss past this torn peck. Yeah.

pectoral muscle because I'm going to tell you something. It's so gross. I can think of two moments in pro wrestling history of my viewing experience where I had to turn away. One is when Jake the snake hooked that cobra on Randy Macho Man Savage. And you're like, oh God, it's really biting him. It's really biting him. It's hanging on his arm.

And these kids are crying on the front row. And then there's watching. I have to say, you've seen the one where macho man is like they're getting ready to have they're going to have the match and before they go out there, macho man is like, he's got to bite you first. He had a bite. You're out to make sure it's not poisonous. Yeah.

But then there's watching you with your whole shoulder looking like shit. So bad. And when you take those hits, you feel it. Anybody watching feels it. And I can't imagine the pain. And you almost have to look away. It looks so painful. It's one of the strangest.

audience reactions I've ever had. I didn't know what they, well, they think this is cool. Well, they think this is, really what it came across was we don't know how to feel about this. He seems like, talking about myself, he seems like he's very injured. You know, half my body at that point was, it was a complete tear thing was ripped to shreds and that bruise just kept getting bigger and bigger and it was running down. I thought I might have some other problems in my bicep and stuff because it was just getting bigger and bigger. I cramped up too. so it's ripped off from here, but it's still hanging up here, and all of a sudden it shot up real high.

It looked like I had a giant chest. I was like standing in the mirror. But it just, it was a, it's something I sign, you know, you have your 8 by 10, your auto mats, the number one things you see that you sign. I sign more torn peck stuff than anything, just because it was such a crazy shot and crazy moment. It's funny because I remember hearing like, you guys don't have to go like 20,

You don't have to do anything crazy. And then we ended up having the craziest just went for it type scenario. I have a lot of respect for Seth Rollins. One of the things that I thought was really crazy was that after this surgery, right? You've got a, I mean, you get this injury, bitch pressing, something that you've got to do is. Yeah. Right? You've got this is.

And you talked about the main problem going forward. wasn't really about the injury healing. It was the psychological trusting being able to do, right? Lifting things. And being a big fan of football, right? Guys injure their knees and you're like, you think about that. You're like, you know, really I want this guy to have a great career, but how in the hell does he trust to make the cut?

Sure. How does he really commit 100% to be able to do the burst that he has and provide all this? So, you know, has that moment happened yet where you're like, it's out of mind? It's not even something you think about. I wanted to put myself into the fire, right, to make the cuts essentially. So one of the things that I ended up getting in the ring with Gunther, that was the guy was in the ring, and he chops right across your chest. And I felt like that was going to be a good, we'll find out if this,

if this is going to hold up? If it has, does it have better strength? Does it have a little less? Is there a difference? It changed how I go into everything in terms of nutrition and hydration and how I, definitely how I train. But I think it became, it's a clear, it's, I mean, the scar is huge. Like, there's so many guys who've torn their pecks, no scar.

I got this giant, like, keloid scars in there. What the hell? But it, it made it so it felt like it all. always needs to be protected. Like, I have to protect it in there. It is now an added factor. I don't know if I'm afraid of tearing it as much as I'm afraid of, you know, using, this is my right arm as well.

You know, the big thing with me was clotheslining somebody. Yeah. If I'm clothes lining somebody and they hit me. Like, they hit this, it goes this way. That's the big thing. It goes this way. So that's my, his name is Brian Tovin, the guy who was doing my PT. He would throw a ball at me and I'd just a bouncy, like a ball, and I'd hit it.

And it hit against the wall and catch it. He had to come up with these little drills just so that I felt comfortable hitting somebody. Building your confidence. Building the confidence back. Before I came back at the Rumble, I wonder if the video will ever surface. But we have security cameras at my school. And I came in one day and there was no one in there. So all I did was just run in the ring.

Like exactly how you would run in the Rumble. I ran in the ring. I shadow hit a few people. And then I threw myself over the top to see if I could hang on because that's a big thing. Oh my gosh. You almost eliminated. He's almost eliminated. You got to be able to do, though.

So I did it like a hundred times just by myself, just running in, no one's around. I needed it to feel like it used to. And it didn't feel that way right away. It took time. It took a few, I think probably about a month as being back active. Like, okay, it's fine. It's okay.

Something else is going to tear. This one's good. You know what I'm saying? It's fine. It's okay. But they have a great medical team at WWV. They don't let you, man, they make you go through the ringer to come back too. Oh my gosh.

You got to go down. and train with guys. You get two weeks, a minimum. It's just the same when you get any type of head injury, which is a proper protocol now. You've got to go through all the tests and all the panels. And yeah, so I got through it.

The, um, one of the things that I was excited to talk to Steve Austin about was, um, color. And so, and, um, I found that really fascinating. Yeah. It's course,

like you say, like when we watch, when I, when I grew up watching it and you're watching it, you know, you're back and watching the videos of your dad and stuff, the blood. I mean, it was freaking...

A lot of blood. Everywhere. Yeah. And did you do color in the independency? I was bloody a lot. I was often... Intentionally or accidentally. I'd say my threshold's pretty down the middle.

Yeah, I know there was a time recently in WWE got busted lit. So I don't put my hands up a lot. Yeah. Again, I'm a weirdo. I'm into this. I don't put my hands up a lot. So I often get like these little marks and moments. So I'd say it's somewhere down the middle.

I color is, it's very, I'm glad. And maybe it's this thing when you're young. You're like, oh, this is so cool. But I'm glad as I've gotten in the role I am now and you see the amount of families and stuff in the front of room. I'm glad I'm like, okay, it's not a thing at WWE, you know, what we call a hard way. It happens, you know. Hard way. You know, I wrestled Brock Lesnar and, you know, WWB, no blood.

If there's blood, you got to clean it up right away. They're right there. They're ready to get you and take care of you and just take a minute out of the match or whatever. I was wrestling Brock Lesnar in Puerto Rico, drop kicked him in the knee. He hit the buckle, turned around, face full of blood. And I'm thinking, oh, no, like, oh, a, it's a giant Brock Lesner. Oh, no. Oh, no.

But also part of me was back to being a little kid. This is badass. Yes. Yes. You know, I feel bad for the doctors and stuff when they have to get in there. Because today you got to get there and clean it up. Most of the boys will try their damnedest to not let you. But they won't shoot it.

So you do have to clean it up, guys. Like all this cool stuff, they won't shoot just because blood no longer being the family business that it is. Sure. You know. And the independent business, though, that was just. happened part of the process again so yeah i i um you know that was that was always just such a when that happened in a match back in the 80s and not as man that was like holy shit this is it's just getting serious yeah that's it's funny you say that a lot of times it would be the indication that

like they're getting to it now this is this is serious it's personal it's yeah they're getting to it yeah somebody's busted open you mentioned that like uh who was in the top billing uh Monday night wrong like the main event. The guy that... Gunther and Chad. Goonther, yes, and Chad. And Chad's family, I believe, is on the front row. And when they kept throwing those shots at those kids,

and, you know, he's close to pinning him. And then you feel the dejection when they, you know, he snaps out of it. And then when he lost, they start bawling. And they're in tears. And it's like, you just, you reminded me, oh, yeah, now this is a family event. In fact, we had, you know, Morgan Overstreet there last night. She's like, there's 10-year-old. right next to them.

You know, so, yeah. Literally, like I would, I don't know, you probably know better than I do, or, you know, but it's like 50% of the audience is under 12. Yeah, very young audience of WW. Yeah, very. Monday Night Rawls stuff.

Which is amazing, because you know how many other sports entertainment franchises that are trying to get that younger audience? And here you guys are, they're beating the hell out of each other, and you did it. You found it. I think I'd put a lot of the credit,

John Sina kind of took the industry from Austin and Rock, which was a lot of older males watching the Crash TV, Springer, all that. He took it and he re, this happens all the time.

The industry has to reset. You have to reset. And it became very much a family business while he was the lead dog. And it's remained that. You do see a lot of the hardcore fans and the older males and things of that nature, but it's a lot of 12 is like that age, a lot of youngsters and little nightmares, you know, just really, it's different.

And then you mentioned them last night. That's bringing family to a show is, it's as real as it gets, you know? And like, Chad did amazing last night. And I do hope that Chad finds the Intercontinental Championship, you know, he had the shot. I hope he finds it. Amazing, amazing, true athlete, real Olympian amazing but those moments again it's hard to tell in what we do what is real and what isn't and when it's in the middle it's so sweet and so good that's as real as it gets yeah his daughter one see that yeah and have that moment um i felt bad because they sent me out after to raise his hand and i got to do the the dark match but man i just i feel bad you're getting your time and your moment here i had i gone out there and him told me to f off i would have been totally

No problem. I'm going to get in the ring. But he was very, you know, an amazing, amazing athlete. But that's where, you know, it gets real. My sister and my mom, they know, like, oh, if we're coming, expect he could get absolutely dog walked right in front of us. And we've got, they're going to shoot us. They know we're here, you know. They're ready for it.

And my mom is indifferent to, she watched Dusty for so many years. She's seen it all. So nothing. Brock beat me half to death right in front of her. and I could see her. Yeah, just, we used to call her stern-faced lady. Like, he's going to get up. You know, like she knows, he'll get up.

He's going to be all right. But, yeah, that's family at the shows. It's always tricky. Is your daughter still too young to bring to the show? Does she go? She came to Mania so that I could see her and have that memory with her. And then we immediately took her to the back. So just the pyro and the, but because she came to WrestleMania,

that's all the, that's the word she knows that associates with what I do. So the other week she was telling Bram. I'm going to WrestleMania. I'm going to WrestleMania. It's just the cutest. Every match is WrestleMania. What I do is WrestleMania. For whatever reason, she came to that show.

She did that moment, and she watched another entrance of a superstar, a WW superstar named Aska. And Aska did her entrance rehearsal. So that's all she knows. Is Aska dancing, WrestleMania? So, again, she would,

I don't think I can get beat up or beat somebody up in front of her. I don't know if I can do it. And I just, it's a bridge. Well, I had to cross this bridge, you know. I was watching my dad. He didn't smarten me up. So he's getting beat half to death by these guys.

This is terrifying. Yeah, this is scary. Yeah. So I don't know if I, I think that's a very unique conversation that my wife will probably be the lead on that conversation. Sure. You better put a camera on that. Yeah.

Good to capture, maybe at least watch later. I don't know if you'll share it with anybody. Well, I don't know what's the right strategy. My dad didn't smarten me up. He thought that was the right strategy. You probably need to do it for your daughter. Yeah, and I'm thinking, we got to give her the scoop on what is and what isn't. But again, we haven't had to get to it yet.

Becoming a dad seemed, you know, I'm sure has changed your life incredibly. Especially coming off of losing your father. You got this window of trying to process. that and move forward, you know, and how incredible is it that a child can feel that, feel that void? You know, and how is that, how is that sort of calm the sorrow, right? Yeah. And the loss. It's amazing what they do for you, right? And that's not their task.

Yeah. These children, their task could be a million things. They're going to find their path and their task and our job to get them there. But selfishly, it's amazing what she'll never know until I tell her or watches this interview or what she did for me, just being born. Being born, it took every carny is the word I'd use. It took every kind of negative trait that I'd have, or duplicitous, it took it all and just, nah,

again, like, I have to be as true and blue as possible. She's gonna, I'm her guiding force, me and my wife, and it just changed everything for me, everything. And that's all that matters. Yeah. You know, like, and yeah, professionally you can categorize, categorize this matters and this matters X amount of money, this match, but the most important thing is that I get her to the spot she needs to be in

and just be as good as I had the perfect father and be that in the best way for her. But I mean it changed everything. Guys will talk to me now and they joke. I used to be such a just, I mean, no better way to put it but shi disturber. I used to be such a locker room prankster and joker and telling. And there's a term in our business, a co-detail. When it's just I take something that's slightly true and just distorted heavily. And like, I lost my ability to do all that.

Like it just, it's not in me anymore. It just became, hey, that's why I started, you know, when I mentioned telling Bruce, I'm the best wrestler in the world, that's where really the, that's all I, that was my sales pitch. Yeah. There's nothing else to this is how I feel. And I'd love to be back and boom, that's it. That's all I had to, that's all I felt like. didn't want to get into the it just changed me in such a good way and I hope I I hope she just has the

best the best life I just I would I'd love another one um yeah who's that up to I mean I think I think brand I think brandy is all gung-ho because she ended up being freaking mother the year I mean especially with this gig you know I'm they got the tour bus I get to sleep eight hours on it I'm doing these shows she's doing full full time this plus setting up her yoga and her Pilates studio. She's just absolutely killing it. I feel like I'll be, as the years grow on, I'll be on the back pedal a little bit.

I'll be having to earn liberty over a bit more because it's one thing to have love and fun together, but that trust and your person, brandy's her person. I feel like I'm definitely behind the eight ball, so I'm going to have to try and as things go, earn her back. Yeah, that's a tough balance for you, man,

because you're sort of on this, you know, you're on a lightning bolt. And your, you know, your career has turned into this incredible machine. You know, so I'm, I can, I can sympathize a little bit with you as a young father, a new father, and having all of these things that are these opportunities, this great opportunity, right? You want to seize it. You want to take advantage of it.

Brandy obviously understands the business very well and knows exactly what you're being asked to do and where you need to be. So how do you manage the balance being able to beat you? You talk about this in your documentary, your dad's inability to really be there for your brother. Yeah. And then his ability later where he was in his life to spend more time with you. So, you know, you want to make sure that you're doing that with your daughter and how do you manage it? Well, I'd say the biggest brandy having been in the business too. she understands

I had this I won the Royal Rumble last year such an exciting moment I dreamed of winning a Royal Rumble I couldn't believe I won the Royal Rumble

I came backstage there's the talent relations guy at WWV named John Cohn he had a binder with him a binder not one sheet of paper

full binder and he said here's all your appearances and potential stuff are you ready for this and it was the greatest I've been waiting

for somebody to ask me am I ready for this Yes, I'm ready for it. But then when it actually came down to you're going to be going, you're going to be going, you're going to be doing this, you're going to be doing that. My wife said something really, which meant a lot to me as a wrestler, but she, I was telling her, I was like, this is going to suck. I'm not going to see it for 11 days here or whatever. And I remember she said, well, that's the schedule of a WrestleMania main inventor.

And I thought, damn, you're right. And I got to live up to it and honor her in the best of ways. but without, I feel like it's not just she's an awesome person, it's that she knows the business, and she knows the window. Yeah. This don't last forever. Sure.

What's the, you know, like get it. Yeah. Go and get it and make something beautiful with it for us all. Yeah, that's been, that's her attitude. You'll get to know her well when you listen to the, when you see or watch the documentary. She's an incredible job as a mother and a wife and very supportive of all the things you've been able to do. even when you went down to the independent man she was she went with it yeah she went with it she

left her gig credible well there's no one else on the planet that probably knew how miserable you were she had to live with you she had to live with it and then that was why it was so fun when we got to do that is she again she she she was you know right or die is the term but she was absolutely about we'll do it together and uh and we did so much of it together and started our our own thing together it was just she's a great great business partner for me, a great partner for me. But yeah, she's somebody. She'll hate that I'm talking so much about her. Hate it.

But I love talking about my wife. She's somebody that's done a few things in the business, the first black executive, first female black executive in the industry. She also did some things that nobody's given her her flowers over yet. And I wait for the day when they write the book on, hey, what happened in this wrestling resurgence that went down who did these things who who recommended this person who went out and recruited this person she's done some really significant things for the sports entertainment pro wrestling business and it's one of those

things where it'll come i've seen i've seen i've seen how the fans are sometimes they don't want to give that credit and give those flowers but it'll come she's done some really good stuff uh and just remain incredibly proud of her and just just she's you know whenever whenever if she wanted to come back can do something I'd be about it. Right. Yeah. I can relate to that, man. I love talking about my wife as well.

I met your wife out there. Whoa. She changed. She saved my life, man. Yeah? She was a big, she helped me change and improved me in a lot of ways. Yeah. I love to sit down and talk about it, man.

But I wanted to ask you, one of the places that I saw you, and a lot of people will see you is the Go Big show. Yes. So, like, you know, how does that happen? How do you get on that? Thank you. The Go big show. I never get to talk about.

Okay, so at the time, we had started A.A.W. And, you know, Discovery, so you're just, you know, WarnerMedia or whatever it was, TNT, TBS, classics. They were just looking for a crossover. And that was my role at A.W. I was the face of the brand. It was not the champion of the brand. But I was going to be, okay, we know him a little from WDB, casual fans. Okay, he looks, again, he's in a suit.

he looks the part you know like I was going to be the face for these these crossovers and that's all they wanted out of it because it was doing really well ratings can we bring some of those people over and I'm of the thought again having grown up in the business I want as many people watching our show as possible so if that means sending me to making Georgia in in the pandemic for a month where we were totally bubbled up with Jennifer Nettles snoop dog and rosario dawson yes send me I will watch some crazy acts with no audience. And one of the most fun experiences I've ever been a part of. And I feel terrible because when I left the show, they didn't do the show again.

And they were ready to do the show again. So if Snoop, Rosario, or Jennifer Nettles ever beat me up in a back alley somewhere, I would understand. I might have screwed up season three. I'll say that what is interesting about you doing that show is, For me, it really, I don't know how to articulate this, but I found your personality and I got to know you on that show, right? And I know it's a show. It's a go big show. It's a variety show.

It's a fun show. But seeing you in another element for me was cool. it's not something that a lot of people in your business get the opportunity to do right that sort of helped you sort of become even even bigger right um while it's it it's in your i find your situation your scenario like you're on this cusp of things that you probably never even dreamed of right i feel like that we're sitting here talking to you today and i know that you've you've you wrestled in wrestlemania win in the royal rumble but i feel like like the next chapter for you is going to be even even bigger than you can imagine. I don't know, man. I just got this weird feeling. But I've been thinking about this a lot. But, man, I just want to tell you,

we've been sitting here talking for an hour and 55 minutes. Oh, has it been? It has. All right. We often, you know, get an opportunity to talk to people in this room for an hour and a half or so and we're very fortunate to have chance to speak to some really cool people in our industry but also outside the industry and one of my favorite things to do is obviously talk to people that aren't in racing yeah we rarely get a chance to bring somebody in here

that has a background from somewhere else and and where you are in your story I feel like that we're as fortunate as can be to have had you to come here today I know that you have an incredible schedule and you've given us more than enough time. So I want to say thank you for that. Thank you very much for having me. And I'm of the thought, if you're right, if your prediction, that things are going to get bigger, well, I have to come back. I got to come back. Got to bring some hardware, hopefully, too. I got to come back. No, that's, I hope you're right. That's what it feels like. It feels like you're on your way to incredible things. And I know that your story is already in itself a hell of a thing.

I'm so thankful to meet you. Thank you for bringing me that news about your dad and how big of a fan he was. Oh, yeah. That is one of the coolest things I'll hear. And so anyways, man, I'm just, I had a lot of fun talking to you. Yeah, it's a blast.

I feel like it's a special treat. Good luck. Thank you so much. I appreciate you guys having me on and talking about some things that you don't always talk about, you know, and just it's a special time that's happening in our game and our industry and just being part of it, very lucky to be part of it

and do stuff like this, so thank you. And the Dale, Dusty, is as real as it gets. I believe it. Because when he passed and you tweeted something, right? I remember you tweeted something, that was probably the one that excited or the most. Oh, wow. You know, you're in that period where you're like,

You don't want to hear it, but you do want to hear it. You don't want people to reach out, but you're looking at who reaches out. And that one, I remember she thought was really special. Yeah. Well, he was an amazing dude. Entertained a lot of us. If you want to, if you want to know everything about Cody Rhodes, there's an incredible documentary on Peacock.

And for those of few of you that aren't fans, you'll be one when you're done watching that. Good luck, man. Thank you, sir. We're going to be pulling for you here at the Dale Jr. Download. Thank you guys very, very much. Man, I'm really excited to have Ally help us bring the guest segment every week.

It's one of my favorite parts of the download. We get to talk to so many different people in racing, outside of racing. But everybody that comes in here, I want them to have had a good time. I want them to want to come back. I want them to feel like an ally to Dirty Mo Media. Thank you, Ally, for your continued support of the download and the entire Dirty Mo Media team. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.