The Dale Jr. Download - 517 - Ray Evernham: The Secret Alliance With Dale Earnhardt

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Dale Earnhardt Jr. reunites with legendary NASCAR crew chief Ray Evernham to talk about his new book and catch up on his life since his last appearance in 2020. The book, titled “Trophies and Scars��� is an autobiography that Ray explains is designed to help show his family and friends who have helped him along the way how he’s evolved over the years. Ray says that a couple of the bigger moments outlined in the book are how the success of fellow modified racer Tony Siscone inspired him to take things to the next level in 1983 and his departure from Hendrick Motorsports in 1999. Dale also inquired more about Ray leaving Jeff Gordon and what in retrospect could have been done to prevent the split from happening.They dive into Ray’s growth from being a journeyman chassis engineer to one of the most prominent crew chiefs in the ‘90s, to which Ray credits taking lessons from other leaders like Jeff Hammond and reading books written by successful coaches. Ray discusses having great admiration for Dale Earnhardt Sr. but having to learn to turn it off when it came to competing on track. The interview also goes on to discuss Ray’s time with IROC in the ‘80s and how he came to acquire the name and trademark this year, his future plans for the once legendary series, his departure from SRX and how he helped revolutionize the NASCAR Cup pit crew.  Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody. It's Dale Jr. back again for another episode of the Dale Jr. download here in the Bojangles studio. We got a great guest coming on today. Ray Everingham is coming by to tell us all about this new book that he wrote, Trophies and Scars. He gets real honest in this book about his life. And we're going to talk about some of those stories and everything else that he's been up to since he was on the show last. So let's get started. The following is a production of Dirtymo Media. He won a record 49 races in the 90s.

He brought the Dodge back. in the 2000s. He revolutionized the pit stop. Now let's talk to the crew chief. Ray Evernham on the Dale Jr. download. All right, welcome back again. It's going to be a great show. I've wanted to have Ray come back on for some time to talk about, obviously, this book

that he's wrote and a lot of honest, you know, opinions about his life, setting the record straight on some things. and we're going to hear all about that but also the SRX what happened there Ray's been very limited on information about what went down

he's definitely wanting to share what his opinion is of that whole situation and he has wore this hat here IROC hat because he's starting the I rock back up what does that even mean I haven't heard from Ray on exactly

what his vision is so we'll get to talk about that with Ray when we bring him in here I want to thank Ally for sponsoring the guest segment and bringing us all our great guests like Ray to the show. Ally is such a great supporter of the Dale Jr. Download, but also all things racing, like they're doing so much in the NASCAR industry

to not only being a primary sponsor on Bowman's car running ads throughout our broadcasts, but doing all kinds of great, unique things within the sport that I love. So thank you, Ally. It's awesome to always have an ally. in your corner and they're a great one for us here at the Dell Junior Download. So let's get Ray in the room and let's get this started. What's your little gift? Oh boy.

New old stock. Good to see you. I like that hat. Yeah. I figured I'd wear it today. Perfect. Ray comes in. How are you doing, Ray?

I'm doing good. Ray walks into the studio and hands me a die-cast, I-rock car, new old stock. This is original. Yeah, yeah. Looking like maybe 87, something. like that, but where did this come from? So when we announced that we had got the IROC marks and we're gathering stuff, a lot of fans are right there said, hey, you know, a guy sent us a whole case of the, he said,

I got some old stuff, want you guys to have it so he could use it. So that's insane. We brought one for you because you've got some cool stuff around. Yeah, I love that. All right, man. Well, Ray, I'm glad you're here. Looking forward to getting your opinion on some of the things going on. in sport, but first off, just fresh off the Daytona 500, do you pay attention to what was going

on over there? Oh, I did. I did. And, you know, big, big weekend for Hendrick Motorsports, as you know, for Mr. Hendrick 40 years. And so to see the 24 on the 24 and see how happy they were, you look at how long Rick Hendrick and Linda Hendrick have been doing this. And last night meant a lot to them. You could see it in their face. Yeah, I was surprised they all came out across the grass or out toward William at the car. That's how you celebrate, right? You kind of make it your own. I know William's going to do the front straightaway interview

and the burnout or anything else he wants to do, but if Daytona, man, you take it in. You allow the team to come out there and celebrate with you in that moment before you go to Victory Lane right and have the more proper celebration. So that was kind of cool seeing them all out there right around his front straightaway interview. Well, and you know, you know what it feels like.

When that checkered flag falls at that place and you know you've won that, man, it's like all of a sudden you know, you're a stock car racer. You know, William Byron, you know, he's going to go on and do tremendous things, but that will be, he'll remember that one forever. Yeah, you'll see, I know he will because he'll see, he'll see it, images and video for the rest of his life, right? moment when we come back to Daytona they'll have you know promo reels and all types of things and they'll drop that little nugget in there his celebration or an image of him in victory lane and so

the rest i told him after the race i said forever a 500 champion because the rest of your life you'll be recognized and and see those you know see be reminded by that moment one of the reasons why you're here today is because you just recently released a book um and you told me that it's an autobiogical called Trophies and Scars. And you told me repeatedly, you're like, man, this is the most honest version of my life that I could possibly give. What was the reason behind doing a book now? I feel like I wanted my family, my children, and the people who are close to me,

and the people who have helped me along the way that really didn't get to take that journey with me, but if it wasn't for them, I wouldn't have made all those steps in the journey. I wanted them to know really who I am, who they helped me become, and what I was thinking and know that I was evolving with each step, right? I'm not the same person I was if you raced against me 40 or 50 years ago, but I, you know, I met so many people along the way that have taught me so many things. And, you know, it's just like that old Willie Nelson song. You know, I got a long list of reasons for all the things I've done.

And I just wanted those people to know that they made a difference. And I wanted my family to really understand what I was thinking when I wasn't with them. Yeah. What were some of the more, what were some of the moments in the book that you wrote about that were a relief, right? To get off your. So I've had an opportunity myself to do this and put some of my experiences in a public forum. And there is moments where you're like, man, I can't wait for people to read this part because it will either explain a lot or you're able to get something off your chest that you've been harboring or something that's bothered you. And so what is a moment or some moments where you're like, man, this is important for me to share?

I think some of it in the early days when I didn't know how much I didn't know. It was, you know, I was always making excuses by why I was getting beat or, you know, and I had a realization when I had that fire at Martinsville and had to race Tony Sascone the next year, 1983. And Tony, you know, fantastic guy, you know, and. What happened in that, V? In Halloween Day, 1982, we've had Cardinal 500, you know, the East Run Modifieds and late models as well. You know, we kept blowing tires out and hit the wall and Tony hit me in the, in the back, didn't see me, another car was right in front of me.

Big fire, big fire. And Tony got burned bad. I got burned, he got burned, but he got burned bad with his hands and whatnot. And, you know, we both came back to race 1983. We go at Wall Stadium, and Tony's got, his hands burned horribly. He can barely do anything but hold the steering wheel, right? And the championship comes down to me and him. Last night, we're racing for the championship, and he beat me.

And I never forgot that because I thought, here's a guy that I always thought, oh, he had the best cars, he had life easy. He had all, he had all these things going for him. That's why he beat me all the time. And I realized, no, he beat me because he really wanted it. And he wasn't out partying and drinking, you know, and carrying on and working on the car half-ass like I was a lot. And right then and there, I decided I needed to go and make sure I could do this, find out how to do it. And that's when I left racing full time and went to IROC. And that was a huge turning point in my life.

And the other thing that I really get into is the day that I left Hendrick, which was incredibly hard for me. I don't think a lot of people really understood what I was going through there. But I was really honest about that stuff. And you look back and think, man, are the things I could have handled differently or what was I feeling or what would have really worked out? And so those two things in the book are really honest and changed my direction of life. Is there a, so thinking, that makes me wonder. So let's, for example, take the Hendrick, the day you left Hendrick, is there a person in that experience that you hope reads the book and maybe can mend fences

or someone might say, you're hoping that a specific person reads this and goes, man, I'm really glad I'm really got to learn this, right? Now I see this from his perspective. I didn't know that Ray felt this way. Is there a specific person? Well, it's funny, you should ask that because, you know, Jeff Gordon and I had never really had that conversation.

Really? Really. We talk, you know, you talk on surfs and stuff, and everybody's always a little bit protective, but I talked to him about what I was feeling. I showed him the chapter. and, you know, he's like, man, I didn't know. And so I'm glad with him, and I'm hoping that Rick takes, you know, reads it and understands it.

But really, everybody at motorsports, because I want them to know how that felt. And I think you go through that sometimes with family, when you, you know, you have to make a decision for yourself and you have to leave your family, your friends, or you do whatever. and it was a lot more like that because, you know, Hendrick, I look at that, they're still my family, right? Still family. And I hope that everyone there at least understands what I was thinking, right or wrong, you know, because sometimes even though as you explain it, you know, you got to make a decision and move on. But that one hurt. Yeah.

And so that's interesting. You and Jeff, when you decide to leave, you and him did not communicate much. about that decision and he was left to assume, right? And then I'm sure part of him was frustrated because of how successful y'all

had been, but also, there was a bit from what I've read in the book, there was a sense of y'all were to crossroads, right? Performance-wise, communication-wise, y'all were, y'all weren't roses and rainbows and winning, winning and winning championship.

championship champion. There was some, some tug of war going on between the two of y'all, correct? Yeah. And, you know, we had grown, right? We talked about how people evolve. And when I met Jeff, he was 18 years old and he needed, you know, the kind of crew chief that I was, you know, about this and that. I didn't really tell him how to drive, but I, you know, talked to him on the car, talk about this, this, this, this, you know. And, man, he was already three-time championed. At that time, he was one of the biggest names in their sports. you know, was him and your dad, right? That was it, right?

And then they were, they were the guys. And he, you know, it just didn't fit what he needed anymore. And I didn't know how to do anything else, you know? So that's so interesting to me because I feel like that Jimmy and Chad sort of got to the same place. And Jimmy and I talked a little bit one time and he's like, I'm thinking about splitting up. And I'm like, how many more years are you going to run? Now, I know Jeff was young. He had a lot of years left.

But I was thinking, man, why would you want, if you're just going to run a couple years, why would you want to ruin this sort of dynasty that y'all are, right? Just go through the next couple of years arguing and fighting and just finish it. Right.

But how, being so successful together, it's sort of similar to David Pearson and the Wood brothers, right? They could have figured that out. Right? The split that, I come to the realization that that split was unnecessary. had they sat down and had a conversation they likely would have continued to work together

at least for the remainder of that year why do you feel like you know you're such you're you're this accomplished championship crew chief that everybody in the garage looks at and goes this guy knows his stuff I wish he was working on my car how come you were no longer a fit how could that possibly happen well there were You were, and honestly, you know how this happens too. There were people in our lives on both sides that were kind of pulling us in different directions and talking about, hey, this or that, and that starts you thinking. And that started us questioning each other on what our priorities were or whatnot.

And I think that once that crack opens, somebody opens that crack, you had to remember how fast everything happened for us, too. You know, I tell everybody, look, I went from laying on my back, Flemington changing gears into dirt to a cup champion in three years, you know, and I think that happened to Jeff, too. And as I said, you know, you get a lot of people pulling you in different directions. And again, you continue to evolve. You continue to learn had we known now, you know, I think Rick Hendrick says no way, but I think that a milk and cookies could have fixed it. Could have fixed it. But I, but I think. I also think that maybe Rick learned that he, when Jimmy and Chad were talking about splitting, that, hey, I need to get and talk to these guys. Do you think Rick wished he would have stepped in, maybe? You've had conversations with him. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And again, you can't have any more respect for anybody on the planet than I've done for Rick Hendren. Could Rick have talked to you into staying? I think he could because he's one of the few people that I would have listened to that would have got me to think about the right things. But you're saying the Dodge deal. the opportunity that you had to create this magnificent organization, which it was, right? It became really an incredible thing. You think he could have convinced you to stick around for a while? I think he absolutely could have because Rick could have provided all those opportunities for me.

And the Dodge people were great to me because I don't want to think that, hey, that wasn't a great experience. I learned so much, learned so much. But you know, you look back in the end and think, okay, Rick, could have provided those opportunities for me. He could have done it. But Rick will tell you, he's probably told you the same thing. Look, a good deal is a good deal for everybody. Worked out good for Hendrick because it actually, I think in some ways,

showed them a path to grow and be stronger. And then it let me expand and grow and be stronger. Because when you jump into a deal like that, you don't know how much you don't know. And I'm going to tell you, when I jumped into being a car owner, it's like, yeah, I'm just going to be a crew chief and just I'm just own everything. Surprise. Yeah. It doesn't work that way.

But, you know, the good news is it, it turned out really good. And I think it's actually made Jeff and I and Rick Hendrick closer. How did you and Jeff start the conversation of, you know, coming to terms with it? When did that begin? Oh, you know, we didn't really talk that well until, you know, we started, when I went back to Hendrick in 14, 15, we started, you know, working together a little bit again. And I was enjoying it. It was good, you know, working with them.

But I really think that the NASCAR Hall of Fame brought us together a lot because you have time. You're reflecting on your career and you realize how important he was to me and I was to him. And he went out of his way for his Hall of Fame induction to make me feel like part of his family. That's a big deal. Big deal. It's a really big deal. And I think right then and there, we were just back like brothers. Talking about the evolution as a crew chief, laying in the dirt changing gears and a championship crew chief three years later,

I'm fascinated by when you think about, I've been able to watch Chad Knau's sort of have a similar experience. A lot of crew chiefs do this, right? You look at these guys and you think about where they came from. how how do you evolve from a journeyman you know working his tail off modified guy going you know you go through irock you know working with kowiki for a little while very short period of time then dave marcus and different things right doing all sorts of stuff how does that guy turn into somebody who is prominent, iconic, well-respected, and take yourself back to your peak in the cup garage as a crew chief for Jeff Gordon. You're orchestrating this team into a championship team. You're,

you know, you're in control of Jeff Gordon, who's an incredible talent. And from the exterior, you look like a guy who is, who knows exactly how he, how he prepared, exactly what his next step is, exactly ready for anything that's coming at him. You know, you carried yourself with such confidence, right? But you weren't that person three years ago. How did that happen?

How does that happen for anybody? I see this all the time where it's almost impossible to really scout that position. You can't see, no one was able to really look at you in the dirt at Flemington and see that leadership quality or that potential to be that guy you became. How does that happen? I always tell everybody, look, look, I'm kind of the farthest gump of motorsports, right? Where sometimes you just end up in the right place at the right time,

and you're challenged with something that you didn't even know you could do. And they always say that you don't really know what you can do until you have to do it. But I was very, very fortunate throughout my career to be around some fantastic people. And I mean some good local racers in New Jersey like Gilhern and people like that, you know, that had a lot of wisdom, but they were there. Richie Evans and, you know, raced with a lot of those guys and watched them. And then my years at Roger Penske, you know, Penske, you're, when you grow up in the Penske culture, you're learning stuff, you don't even know that you're learning it, right?

and then through Jay Signoree and I rock and all that had prepared me and I went to try and go back racing and I get hurt and I got to get a job and I didn't even want to be the crew chief we had fun at Bill Davis I did not want to be the crew chief I told Rick Hendrick

the first day and Rick will tell you this What did you want? I wanted to be the chassis guy I want to build cars and set the cars up I told them they need to go hire Andy Petrie to be a crew chief and Rick says no we're going to hire you to be the crew chief Jeff wants you to be the crew chief

I said I don't know how to be a crew chief I've never been a crew chief hire Andy Petrie and he said no you're going to be the crew chief I said I don't want to be the crew chief chief he said well that's the only job we got take it or leave it no I was not but that you ask about that and it's because Rick saw way more than I saw myself yeah like he saw he said look when you go to the first race right or the test or whatever right and you're in that position I mean you've been in this job for a few months now but are you you know from from the outside looking in you you you seem to be you got to, if you fit the mold, you fit the template, the creatured, the creature

but inside are you scared to death? Scared to death. My fingers, my finger used to shake like that one. I went to push your radio button. I was like, uh-huh. I was scared to death. But, you know, as a leader, you've got to exude confidence. Right.

If you don't exude confidence, the team's not confident, the driver's not confident. How did you figure that out? I read a lot of, you know, I read a lot of coaching books, you know, Vince Lombardi. And, you know, I honestly read Gibbs. But I would watch films, and then we would record, like, I would listen to what other crew chiefs said and watch how people did, and we studied and studied. Who did you pull from? From the crew chief side of things? Jeff Hammond.

Jeff Hammond, because Jeff Hammond was one of the best guys that you could talk to on the radio. Jimmy Fenning helped me a lot. Robin Pemberton, Tony Glover, Andy Petrie, all those guys got behind me and taught me a lot. And we used to scan and, you know, of course, everybody's radios. and I would have a deal hooked on my radio where I could record what they were, what they were saying. Hey, Andy and I had our own channel between the two of us when he was crew chief for your dad.

And y'all would talk amongst ourselves. Yep. Bullse. Yep, that's the truth. Yeah. How long did that happen? It went on for two years and then Andy, you know, went and got his own team.

And I think we did it for one more year when he had Schrader. But 100% you asked Andy. We had the three and the 24, we're almost their own little teammates. No one's going to believe this. That's true. That's 100% true. Unbelievable. I talked to Andrew on the box about Pitten and he talked to me about this and that. There was a time in Charlotte, 1994, October at Charlotte, I built the shocks for the three car.

Bullshed. That's true. I was a crew chief on the 24 and built a set of shocks for the three car. Unreal. And then, obviously, y'all, you know, I think that's Jeff's rookie year, right? No, 93 was our year. 94, we weren't going to win the championship. and I think your dad was in the battle with Mark or somebody,

and we were like, okay, well, here. Here, no kidding. Unbelievable. So that's a great thing to segue to, because there's, I know by talking to you, you have, you really had a great opinion of my dad, and y'all had a very, very cool level of respect. And, you know, you,

You asked for a uniform to drive your race. You're modified a little bit and he gives you this IROC uniform. And you've given me that uniform here recently and I'm very thankful. There was a moment though, I mean shortly after you built those shocks, that Jeff does become a championship contender. How do you shut off that or how do you balance sort of that relationship and respect? And you know, you know this guy. right you appreciate dad you like him and y'all are friendly but then it gets once Jeff becomes a

winner you know the competitiveness and the yeah maybe even the friendliness kind of gets a little chilly at times how did you balance that uh you know it wasn't it wasn't that easily uh emotionally but professionally you know we always got along you know we didn't try and do each other you know Dirty Andy and I got along and a ton of respect for Richard Childress and that organization. You know, Jeff and your daddy, they'd run into one another quite a bit on the racetrack, even in practice and stuff, but that's up to them, you know. But with me, it was difficult because, again, it happened so fast. Like here was a guy who was my hero, you know, on IROC and all that stuff.

And, you know, he'd watch me run my modified at Wilkesboro and things like that. And then, man, you got to race this guy. But you also know that if you're going to be great, you've got to go through this because there was no way to win that championship other than going through a three car. Simple as that. And it was difficult for me sometimes to be as big a fan I was of your dads and focus on my job. But I also knew that I had a responsibility to Rick Hendrick, to Jeff Gordon. And your dad in some way would respect me more if we. could go toe to toe with him. Right. Like if I could, if I could get his respect that way,

you know, he probably didn't like it on the days that would beat him, but I know that he respected my ability with the car, you know, and through all that stuff, we only had one little run, and he threatened to whip my ass one time after Bristol, and we had a good talk up in the hauler there. What happened? Jeff and him had tangled at Bristol, and I was mad, you know, just being a fool, just stupid, and I run up into three-car truck and, you know, and, you know, and, you know, and, you he was gone already and yelled at his crew chief, and they told him about it.

So the next week, I think we're Darlington, but you know how one and two used to park in the garage next to one other? Yeah, he was walking out there, and, you know, he used to how he'd get in that car. He'd walk up to the side where everybody else kind of climb in the window. Well, he just threw his leg over the thing. He just throws one leg over and getting a thing, sitting on the door, and he looked at the door,

and he says to me, I want to see you after practice. I thought to myself, right? So after practice, I went back up in the truck, and whatever, and Richard Childers pops his head out of the back of the three truck, and he says, Dale wants to see you, and I was like, now I'm thinking myself, man, I know what this is about, right?

So I walk in there, and I had two shocks my hand, and he walks in, he goes, you hit me with them shocks? And I said, I will if I have to. And he said, and he gives me a good talking to about, you don't ever run in my truck, yelling at my people, you come and see me. And I said to him, and I thought,

okay this is a big turning point for me because if I just yes sir and I sit down like a whoop dog he's not ever going to respect me yeah and I said yes sir but I said a I did come to see you you weren't there shouldn't yell at them people I said but if you got a problem with Jeff take it out with Jeff don't run into my car on the racetrack because my guys have got to fix that thing and you know what happened at Bristol just didn't need to happen don't remember the exact words and he looked at me said all right sit down you know we sat down talked about that's when he was looking at hiring Steve Park and stuff like that. But that day, you know, again, you think about you're sitting there, you're ready.

I was ready to throw up, right? I was ready to throw up. But I thought to myself, if I don't stand up and answer him like a man, he's never going to respect me. If you collect diecast like I do, the beginning of the new NASCAR season, that's when you start thinking about what cars you want to add to your Lionel racing diecast collection. Many of the sponsor changes and new paint schemes that have been unveiled so far are sure to make some great-looking diecast. I'm actually partial to the Chevrolet, of course, but Ford and Toyota, they'll have all new bodies on the track for the Cup Series this year. All these changes mean our friends at Lionel Racing, the official diecast of NASCAR.

They've been hard at work with the race teams to get those 2024 paint schemes into production. And each week, we're putting up the latest diecast for pre-order at Lionel Racing.com. To kick off the 2004 NASCAR season, Lionel Racing has an exciting offer for race fans and diecast collectors. order any diecast now at lionelracing.com and you get free domestic shipping when you use this promo code, download 24. That's free shipping with the promo code download 24 at lionelracing.com. I wanted to talk to you about your Jeff Gordon credits you with a lot of safety innovations. You know, you've obviously like a lot of racers, myself included. You've had your experiences with crashes and your own injuries.

and Jeff says that all of that experience in your own career, even working on cars, other people's cars, you brought a lot of new innovation into his race cars that he credits with, you know, prolonging his career and success. I mean, are there specific safety innovations that you championed or brought into the table? Well, I always tell everybody, you know, that that's how I got to be a good fabricator mechanic stuff

because I wasn't a very good driver and just wrecked a lot of shit, right? So that's, you know, just not, You're not good. And when I saw Jeff Gordon drive, I thought, man, if I could build a car that good, I must be just a terrible driver, you know. But back in the early days, and again, learned a lot of this stuff. I was very fortunate. When you look at the champions that I worked with at IROC, you know, the Andretti's, the voice, the answers.

Guys outside of NASCAR, because IndyCar was a little bit ahead of safety-wise, you know, the speeds and what they were running. Get to know some of those guys and talked about belts, talked about seats, and talked about different things. So, you know, we always tried to have best we knew how the seats and leg supports, shoulder supports and head supports, things like that, and Jeff's car. But we also, I think one of the biggest things that we came up with, and Gary Aker was heavily involved in this,

started to understand Jeff's voice would change, his attitude would change when we were at Martinsville. And we realized that the carbon monoxide was really getting to these guys and came up with this carbon monoxide scrubber, and I think a lot of the guys are using that fresh air system and stuff now. You know, I always thought about things like fire because of that fire that we had at Martinsville. I remember seeing guys, you know, like Darrell, Davy, when the roofs come off the cars and hands out.

So we started running roof nets and things like that, keep hands inside the car. So wherever I saw a problem, I tried to think, you know, the worst thing could ever happen to me is if I built a car, somebody got hurt in. That's a horrible, that's a horrible feeling. I remember when first I Rout car, weld all seats and belts and all that stuff, Neil Bonnet goes 20 feet in the air, Talladega, scared to hell and I thought to myself. Then I realized right then and there, if I'm responsible for this car, I'm responsible for that man's safety. Yeah. And I always try to

think about that. Back in the IROC days, you'd have guys that would come race from different forms of motorsport that actually maybe not had ever sitting in that type of seat before or that type of harness, right? How challenging was that to get those guys comfortable in a seat and not only just, you know, not talking about the specific car itself, the vehicle, but like the seat, the belts, you know, I'm certain that, well, albeit similar, it's different from maybe the IndyCar seat and how they're used to those things working in the harness they had. Did you have guys that were like, you know, that would ever look at the seat and the belts and stuff and go, man, is that all we got?

You know, that's so different, where they, you know, being so different from what they're used to. Yeah, quite a lot. You know, and, you know, we try and do something different for them, but, you know, build a frame for it. We sometimes would just kind of either build or repair a seat, cut a seat, do something right then, but they were kind of, didn't have a lot of time to fit them in there, but it was, it was funny.

A lot of those guys come in and to be like, what, you know? And then they'd go, well, I need a smaller steering wheel. Just, you've got to get me a smaller steering wheel. get them a small steel wheel. They go out and practice it and say, hey, give me that big steering wheel back. But, you know, they all drove so different. You know, that, and that was the key. You know, you look at guys, there were only a few guys that could do all the stuff. You know, your dad figured those cars out. Mark Martin figured him out. Alenzer Jr. was the guy that could figure out everything. He was the guy. I was going to ask you, so, you know, you've seen a lot of different

guys come into the IROC series back in the day. Who was the one that stood out? that you thought, man, this guy could be a stock car racer in NASCAR. That was Al Jr.? Yeah, I think Al Jr. did a, Al Jr. did a really, really good job understanding the car. You know, from driving Indy car, it's so different, right? So different. But he understood that that stock car. He understood, he understood what that radial tire did, you know, what to get on it, off it, all of that. And he understood the air. And that's something I couldn't figure out how he He figured that out pretty quick. Yeah.

I remember when they came, he came and ran Daytona in a Hendrick car. Yeah. Yeah. So he's Valvilline number 46. It's a huge deal. This, you know, not only is it an any car driver coming in to run our sport, which rarely happened, it's an answer. Even as a child or even as a young boy, I guess that was. maybe 20 or so, 1920 then, I was so hopeful for his success.

I personally wanted him to come raise stock cars because he's an answer. And he's Al Jr. And I wanted that to go well for him. Do you remember much about that experience? I mean, we know the result. He had some moments of promise and you could see where the potential was had he stuck with it. But do you remember like the excitement, I guess, around Hendrick Motorsports? It was rare when that type of thing would happen inside an organization.

How was the buzz inside the building without Junior coming to drive a one-off? Well, it was really, I think, a lot of fun. I think Waddell might have run that car for him. And so it was, again, really neat. And things like that happened at Hendrick Motorsports, because the stars want to come there. If people, you know, everything aligns, they get it done. but I had worked with Al so much at I Rock.

I was excited to see him come because I knew he could do it if he wanted to stay doing it. I also knew it was going to be tough at Daytona 500. I wasn't involved a lot because I can't remember if that was our rookie year or it was either 93 or 94. It was early. So we were, you know, heck, I was trying to figure it out myself. You know, all of a sudden having to work on a car where the fenders were important was pretty new to me, you know, because at IROC they had fenders, but everything was the same. But we were still learning all that. But I got to spend time with Al when he came through there, and that's, you know, I was fortunate enough to got to know a lot of superstars that were at Hendricks, like Waddell.

And, you know, your granddad used to come down and see me. And he had a lot of wisdom about stuff. And he was the guy I'd ask about questions on the body. How's this work? How's that work? Or why do you do this or why do you do that, as everybody else in the sport did at that time? But, you know, when you look back at, again, I keep saying the farest gump of motorsports, because here, I am this guy, but I get thrown into this thing where you can't find better people to ask

that are the people that were lined up to help me because Rick Hendrick said so. You talk about Waddell. Waddell's a guy that I'm trying to get on the show here this year. He has an incredible career. What was it like working with him? What kind of character was he? He's still a character today and he's sharp and when he's on, you got to get him telling about the stories how he didn't, you know, he almost didn't get hired at Holman Moody and

and whatnot, but they had very little to work with compared to what we had, right? And they worked. Those guys worked. I mean, to work 18 hours a day was nothing back then. But you realize guys were geniuses like Smokey Unique, Banjo Matthews, guys like that that never, you know, no real schooling, no engineering, any of that, just figuring stuff out. What else was one of them guys? I mean, you look at something and it just, it comes to them. And so in my mind, I always imagined Waddell is more of a motor guy, a power guy.

Apparently, he was not that. I never really personally and internally credited his ability as a crew chief outside of the engine and power, right? So where was his expertise? Well, to me, his expertise will always be motor builder because when you look at the number of races he's won and the people that he had, like he'd have three or four motors in Daytona 500 and run him one, two, three when he was at Holman Moody. But he was really good about putting people together to his management, leadership, you know, dispersing the responsibility. And the other thing that I learned from watching him at Hendrick, his cleanliness and organizing. because that that actually gets in the head of your competition. When your stuff's clean and neat and organized,

you already have that appearance of you're buttoned up. And if they're not, even a little bit, you know, they're already behind. And his shop, his cars, his people, his uniforms, if you look at him today, he's always buttoned up. Man, you're credited by Jeff as well, not only for the safety innovations that you brought to his car, but pit stop evolution. You know, a lot of people, Jeff will say that you were one of the first guys to start considering the idea of athletes doing this job. Like it makes perfect sense today. But for all, for the first 50 or 60 years of NASCAR, the road guys pitted the car.

You know, all your mechanics, those were the guys that were going to change the tires for the car when it came down pit road. But eventually, you know, you're exhausting all these avenues of, finding an advantage and you found a new one right on pit road and you're able to cut five seconds off of your pit stops by installing you know athletes trained athletes in these positions well that you know the leaders of the pit stop to me will always be the wood brothers you know the the petties and the wood brothers they they got that stuff early and you know again when we talk about history you look back at dale inman and Leonard wood they are who they are for the reason. And all we did was take their ideas and try and improve on them. And we had

so much to do that I thought to myself, there's no way we can build a good pick crew and practice when I'm working these guys 16 hours a day already on the car. So it came up with the idea. And, you know, at first it wasn't well received at. I was going to ask. What was the pushback? Jim Johnson, who was the general manager there. I mean, obviously, he had budget and there are people, you couldn't have extra people and whatnot. So we went out and got some volunteers and bought them sandwiches and this and that and found some Andy Popatana, CU found some guys. And one day Rick Hendrick rolls in there and he comes rolling in.

You know, Rick would just roll in on Saturday, check his stuff. And they're out there running around the field, rolling on tires, carrying one another in the back. And he's like, what the hell's going on here? So I explained to him what we were doing. And then he supported us. And I said, they don't need to know how to work on the car. You know, because back then you could, you could only have seven men over at one time, but they could go back and forth. Right. And I said, so if the car's wrecked, we'll send the other guys over, but we'll teach these guys how to do a pit stop.

And he supported us. And again, he kept me from getting fired there. I think Jimmy wanted to fire me more than once, but the pit crew thing just made so much sense to me. And that helped us a lot because we were pretty quick on pit road right off the bat. Yeah. What about the pushback from the actual mechanics that were getting pulled off over the wall? Were they fine with that? Well, since we didn't have a pit crew yet, you know, I explained to some of the guys that wanted to change tires that, look, I need you here and you're not going to have time to pit practice.

And there were certain exceptions like Chad Canals. We let him out of the day. But Chad worked extra. Chad said, look, I'll get up at 5 o'clock in the morning. I'll do my own workout. Can I do that? And let me, I won't take lunch. if you let me take an hour or day to go pit.

To continue pitting car. Yeah. So there were some exceptions. There were some exceptions. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit about the SRX. You know, this is a series that's been going on for a couple years.

A lot of people were really excited about it. You'd have, you know, everybody, I don't know, by this point, there's probably different, you know, versions of what the series was, what it was supposed to be, what it became in a very quick period of time. but you know you had a lot of guys current drivers older drivers retired drivers out there racing in a very short field 12 cars reminiscent of the old original irock series done on short tracks a little bit more of a budgeted sort of style event and made for TV when you started SRX when the series is really kind of being built are you this mastermind or are you feeling more of a partner? How much real control, creative control out of the gate did you have? Well, the first year, I was the creative control, right? I designed the cars, you know,

right down to John the bodies, worked with Tony, Yuri, and the folks over at Fury, taking one of their chassis and modifying it. But the actual look of the car, the race, the television format, that really everything, you know, the look of all that. So I was pretty much the creative control running the competition side. And then partners from New York, Sandy Montagg, TV, and George Pine was, was, was, was enough sponsorship and bringing in investors. But as far as track format, choices, drivers, all of that stuff, you know, did all that and loved it, loved it. You know, it was, it was amazing.

Right down to the point where, would sit with Pam Miller and do the minute-by-minute TV stuff, you know, hands and everything. And when I designed that series, I wanted it to be a mini-I-Rock, a mini-I-Rock for drivers that, again, guys like you and Jeff and Tony, guys that are retiring from the sport younger and younger, but didn't really want to race, but wouldn't mind doing something like that. It was safer and have a little bit of fun and made it, you know, a special, a motorsports entertainment made for TV. type series. Yeah, did you, when determining the tracks you were going to go to, was that your goal

out of the gate is to go to these local short tracks and find these local audiences? Did you ever think, you know, about, you know, IROC would go to Michigan. IROC was a companion event to a NASCAR weekend. Was there ever like an even early onset, like very early, early thoughts about where it was going to physically go? Yeah. I wanted to keep it, you know, on a smaller track, you know, because of the speeds. We wanted to make sure, you know, that I just didn't want these guys running 180 miles an hour.

Didn't, you know, they didn't need to be Talladega in Daytona. But they could have easily been, you know, at Martinsville or the dirt track at Charlotte. You know, we absolutely looked at stuff like that or maybe shorten up a road course, you know, not run the whole. Yeah. The whole big track, you know, somewhere, maybe, you know, shorter version of Sonoma. somewhere and and love to would have seen that be a companion event to to NASCAR and had conversations with IndyCar and people like that so feel like we were on our way with that. So, you know, the series got, uh, was well received. Um, fans, uh, you know, I paid a lot of

attention to that and fans really, um, loved the alternative that it was. And, um, and it seemed like that that was you know that was it was it kept that sort of reputation all the way to the very end and people were disappointed to see it go away but talk to me about how it evolved and you eventually you know removed yourself from it entirely right and so i got to know right what was going on and why did you make those decisions well when as with anything there's partnerships right and when you have a dream and you all agree this is direction this is going to go on and this is the funding that it's going to take to do it. Here's my job. Here's your job. Here's his job. Right. And, you know, at the end of the year, when there's no moving forward, you know,

financially or or things like that, you have to have a hard conversation with the partners. Like, wait a minute, you know, this is what we agreed on. This is what I think it's going to take to be successful. And at that time, it didn't, it didn't. the other partners felt like it was going to take something else for it to be successful or they could be successful a different way. And he didn't want to do that. So I said, okay, well, you probably need to have somebody else run this then because I don't believe that that path that you're going will be successful. And so I stepped aside and, you know, unfortunately, it's not been successful, right? I mean, and the loser is the fan, right? The fans have lost

and because the idea was good. The drivers supported it. They did. The drivers supported it. They were having fun. They had all those things. But unfortunately, the business case or the business plan that they used was not successful. There was a lot of interesting scenarios that popped up during this whole process.

NASCAR wasn't entirely sure how to feel about SRX. And especially when the current drivers were going and competing there, I think that everybody, NASCAR included, love the idea of Chase getting to race bill and Ryan and Dave Blaney being able to compete together and the moments like that. But, you know, someone just going to run to have a one-off or be a part of it was a bit questionable for some people in the industry. And so was that a challenge at all?

trying to find a way to exist, not only coexist alongside NASCAR, but also you certainly want to be an asset. You don't want to be anything that's a deterrent to NASCAR. You want to be an asset to them in any way possible. And so was that ever, was that ever anything that made things difficult for SRX to succeed? Or was that just something you hoped?

It was not a deterrent. It was not a problem. It was not a problem. in the productivity of XRX, and you thought that eventually the two could coexist and actually worked together. Well, my plan never included running a bunch of current trackers. One, maybe two, right? Never really, that was never part of my plan.

Okay. So that happened in year two and three after I left. I have still, to this day, you know, one of my proudest things is being a member of the NASCAR Hall of Fame, right? And I have a great relationship with the France family, with Mike Helton, with Steve Phelps, and all that group. And we had several conversations about SRX and about, hey, look, here's the lane. Here's what I'm doing with it. This is, I'd like to use drivers once in a while. And same with the IndyCar people.

But it was really about bringing in the superstars that weren't racing full time anymore. And then mixing them with a local short track hero, which I think is really important. You know, local short track hero and then, you know, a current star, whether that's from road racing, indie cars, you know, sprint cars, whatever. And it got turned off a base there. And I can't really comment on whether, I don't know whether that had any problem or not. But I can tell you that we worked hand in hand pretty good with NASCAR as we were doing it. And I have had, again, great conversations about where I plan on going with I Rock.

And as you know, that NASCAR now currently owns the historic sports car racing and looking at how we can get these vintage IROC cars back on track and then figure out where it goes from there. But I think once it got off to be in, you know, again, a bunch of current cup guys, it became something much different than I started it to be. All right. So you step back, remove yourself entirely? Was it a slow process? Was that like, is that quick? No, it was a pretty quick. It was a pretty quick process.

You know, the one of the things that, as you know, as you know me, you've known me for a long time. Sometimes I say, what's on my mind, say it pretty quick. You know, that was basically a phone call where, you know, I had given all I could give. And you know deep down when you give all you can give and somebody's telling you that just ain't right. Well, I was like, well, you know what? You all have a nice day. I'm going to go build old cars. Emotionally, as you watch the SRX continue, emotionally, anything.

any challenge to, you know, watch it continue down this other path and doing this? Oh, yeah. I mean, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't. I mean, it's like watching your old girlfriend, you know, going out and date with somebody else, you know, and you keep thinking, man, that's not going to be good for you. But, you know, it was. And emotionally, yeah, it did bother me to see some of the changes that were made and some of the things that it was becoming that we had never intended it to do.

And I watched some of the turns that they made. And I thought to myself, that's not going to, it's just not going to. make it. And unfortunately, they didn't. Do you think the SRX series ever returns? I don't know. I know that there's, I think there's a place for a series like that if it's done properly. And there's a business case. And that business case has to be really looked at. And I don't think you can go from point A to point D like a rocket ship. Right. You've got to go B, C. And so I think that there's 100% a place for something like what IROC was or SRX was that is a form of motorsports entertainment because the fans need to be entertained. Yeah. They need to be entertained.

That brings me to IROC. You announced last year that y'all had attained the rights to the IROC name, the brand, right? Yeah. What does that even? Right. What does that even mean? Like how does that, look I know that you've worked in IROC years ago I know you have a very very personal connection to that and I think the SRX was a was a version of that modern style of IROC that you had in your mind right when do you when do you decide hey I wonder if I can attain the rights of the brand I want to own that when do you decide that well we actually looked at it when I started SRX I really wanted to do that And again, you know, we were, it would have been a long process. You wanted SRX just to be Iraq?

I wanted SRX to be Iraq. And what was the problem? Well, the other partners didn't think that was something they wanted to do because they wanted to create their own brand, didn't feel like Iraq was a big enough brand. Oh, wow. And it was a little bit of, you know, obviously it would have been a legal battle. And I've gotten to be friends with Rob Kaufman, who I think is, you know, Robb's a sharp guy. And he does so many other car things.

We do a lot of car things together. Rob's a car collector. Like, I'm a car collector. and we do like Amelia Island, a lot of these things together. And we were kidding around with that. I said, man, I really like to get that. And Rob got involved. And Rob has legal people and the trademarks and this and that.

And one of the guys that helped us out a good bit was a guy named Bruce Canaba. I don't know if you know Bruce or not. But Bruce knew the guy that had the marks. And we were able to put a lot of things together to get the marks. And then we're lined up to get some more. So that gives us the right to use that. Well, there's, you know, as you're doing different trademarks, there's different, okay, you can go in this category, and then you can go in this category and this category. So right now we have the category that we can put on racing, forms of racing, and obviously we can sell merchandise.

Okay. So we're working on those things, and those are all different categories. But we were able to get it, and right now I'm trying to gather as many vintage IROC cars as I can to put on a big IROC where you're union and people have been, you talk about positive. We have people with IROC Z Camaros and I found about 35 vintage IROC cars already. And those are just from the people I know. So hopefully they're going to be, hopefully we can have this big reunion. We're shooting for the fall and then we're going to figure out, okay, okay, wow, there's interest in this thing and where do we go from here? But our goal is to get those cars back on track and then continue to see how popular it can get.

you see this as a bit of a more of a historic meet and greet gather type where you're going to have your own cars, other people that may have IROC cars. Everybody comes together to enjoy the collections, but also have some track day style events. People are going to want to know. Will we ever see IROC as we knew it again, where you've got cars out on a racetrack going 180 miles on hour with the best current drivers in all forms of motorsports competing together. You're probably spot on for everything other than 180 miles an hour. I just don't feel like we need to be 180 miles an hour on a big track. I think we can go 150 on a small track and be bumper to bumper and put on good racing.

You know, like you go and your late model. I mean, if I remember the I rock cars when I was driving them, they were down 15, 20, 15, 20 hour from what a cup car was doing around that racetrack. So, and I felt they were detuned. They were draggy. They were fun as hell. You had to drive the shit out of them. And I felt completely safe because I never felt like I was going anywhere near the speed I was going to go in my cup car.

Right. But like, so maybe 180 mile an hour is a bad term. But, you know, going to a mile or a mile and a half racetrack, right, and having a half having the original irock events you know is that are you are you basically like look we're going to start here see where it goes if that is a is that if that's a possibility you would you would entertain having the original concept come back to life oh my god yeah then that that's that's my dream you know as we talked about before i want to make sure that i'm staying in my lane because i always want to be an asset not only to to NASCAR but the indycar because again those are our two

American series, right? And you look at Imsa's getting really strong now too. I believe that there's a place for IROC as I see it to fit in with any of those. But I'll look in the eye and tell you my dream, like my dream IROC would be to be able to

have this thing grow to have country against country compete, you know, or something, you know, like that where this is this standard car that you, you know, you get to design what people want, you know, whether, you know, whether you've got it on the game or how do you

get people involved from around the world, but then you really bring in, like, how cool would it be someday if you, let's just say, you know, if you could see Lewis Hamilton and Joseph Newgarden, race Kyle, you know, Larson or somebody like that, but in a completely different thing. So that's a dream, right? But for right now, we're looking at, okay, how can I, how can I make the first step and find out if there's interest, create the business plan, and get other partners involved like NASCAR, IndyCar. Yeah. I was wondering because I don't know, you know, I hadn't really ever heard you say, okay,

you know, this, you know, we're, we all know that you're collecting the old cars. We all know that you want to kind of bring everybody who loves Iraq and loves the heritage and all that together in one place and have a, have a, you know, a celebration of, of, of, you know, the history, but had never really heard you speak on it beyond that, right? And what your, what, what, what, what your, what the perfect world would be. I didn't know if you were hesitant to, to, to, to, to, you know, because you definitely don't want to, you know, people would be like, oh man, well, that, I'm excited about that. When's that going to happen? Yeah. Yeah, now you set the tone, right? But I will say, anything that resembles,

the original I Rock would be incredibly welcomed by NASCAR, IndyCar, all fans of every type of motorsport. I remember, and the one reason I think is because I remember when you'd walk into Michigan in the middle of the year, we personally are in the middle of this week-to-week grind in the NASCAR series, and you'd walk out on Pit Road, and there's Jim Sauter and Dave Marcus and a couple of IndyCar guys and an F1 guy and they're in your back, they're in your backyard. Yeah. Right?

And you're going to race them. And y'all allowed this opportunity to interact with them. We would never see each other any other time during the calendar year. And now we're going to not only race together, but we're going to have conversations about, you know, our careers, and the cars in I Rock and what they think about stock cars and what they think about where, you know, our neck of the woods. And sign stuff.

I've seen drivers get autographs from other drivers in Iraq. Yes. Oh, yeah. And so that was a great, that was the greatest thing about IROC. And I think that when you would watch Dad, before I became a driver in I Rock, when you would watch Dad running that series and any other cup driver, they enjoyed the opportunity to drive against these other racers that were great. And experts in those disciplines,

everybody really enjoyed the competitiveness and the challenge and trying to compete against each other. You were never going to race each other in any other way. This was never going to happen any other way. And so I think that that is what's special about IROC. It's the one unique way that you do get to see a Lewis Hamilton and a Kyle Arson on the track against each other. You know, what they say, well, you know, what's old is new again.

There were certain reasons as a motorsports change that made Iraq go away. Guys couldn't do this and this. But I think that we've come to a bit of a circle that we can do that. And I think, as I said, there's a way of mixing the names that people want to see and doing it and doing it now. But I got to share one funny story about when you said Michigan and you were talking about your daddy again. man one time at Michigan they're getting after practice and we used to have all the cars

all other cars lined up there and by that time you know it was Friday afternoon I guess the names would be on them and all that stuff and they were all sitting there and he comes up to me and he grasping by the back of the neck he says I want to talk to you okay and look he's got on his Iraq fire suit and it's got all these damn sharpie

marks on the by the belt and he goes you see that he said look at why spoiler wears it he'd gone up behind all the cars and leaned up against them and took his Sharpie and his spoiler was about a quarter inch higher. Oh, that's the other car. And he'd marked him. And then he goes out, he goes, and right here, and then he's got his driving shoe on there.

And the lace and one of the laces is marked. And then looking down his other foot, the other lace is marked. And he said, and look here. My foot goes all the way up to this lace under my air dam and only goes it onto this lace. And he'd been walking up down pit road. His car was too high. His car was too high.

He's going to be slower. He was mad. Did you accommodate him? Yeah. Well, you know, I told, you know, it used to be tough, but, you know, I'd have to go to Jay and say, Hey, Jay, you know, we need to let that earn an arc's car down a little bit. It's about a quarter inch high in the front. We'll need to let down the back a little bit, too, so we do that.

Did you look bad? What's that? Did you go back? Did you go check before you make sure he wasn't lying? He was a trick. We'd make sure, yeah, yeah. But. He was a trickster.

Well, that, the only time I ever had to chase him, you know, he, he, he, he, he, he. Before on pit road there, they'd all be gone, and you had to keep it on him because he'd be over by his right front tire. He'd be letting air out of the right front tire, you know, because of them things used to push so bad. Letting a little out of it. But it was fun to work with him. And let me tell you, some of those other guys were pretty competitive, too. Had some good IROC stories, you know. The guys would take it in the garage and, you know, it'd get heated in there sometime, you know.

Bobby Rahal and Terry Labani almost got into it one time. What happened? separate them. I guess, I don't know, if Bobby spun Terry or Terry spun Bobby, but they were face to face. We had to separate them. You don't see Terry too hot. No, but when he does, get away from him. And Kail Yerberl, one time, one of the, it was either Hans Stook or Yolkin Moss, spun him out, we were in mid-Ohio. Man, we get out and you know how Kail used to be, his face to get red, really red. He comes running up to me and he grabs me, says, where's them Germans. Just like that. I said, Germans. He goes up there and he runs up there and he grabs

him. He's pointing in and the Germans there. They were like, no, no, it was him. No, it was him. It was him. It was him. That's funny. I want to transition quite a bit. So we're going to make a big shift here, but I want to move into some current things going on in the sport. Big conversation around charters. You were a car owner. I'm sure you have, you know, you stayed on top of what's going on between NASCAR and the teams. And this, it's, I,

I don't have any skin in the game, right? In this particular situation, I'm not pulling for either side. And there's no benefit to me one way or the other, however it works out. I find it very fascinating to see the sport in this position. I want it to end well. I obviously don't want anything bad to happen.

It's a stain on our sport. You have been an owner in this. series and you obviously have some close connections to HMS, you know, what do you think is the, what do you think is the eventual solution and resolution? Where do you, where do you think this thing, where do you think this is going to go? You know, that's hard to predict, right, as stuff evolves. You know, when I keep talking about evolution, that, you know, it's time and it's business and sports now because of the value of, of, to TV, to streaming, to whatever. Really, live sports is probably the most valuable thing on all of television

right now. So as that's evolved and the NFL's gotten bigger and, you know, they're the example. You know, what's the right thing to do? Can, you know, is NASCAR always going to be NASCAR or is that someday is that going to get sold to a big media company kind of like the Formula One company? So how, as all that evolves, and you can only hope that with all of the really, really smart business people involved that they take their time and they try and figure it out so that make sure that the loser isn't the fans, right? We don't want the fans to be the loser. I know that I believe that some of the cost containment that they've done with the new car and some of those things are definitely in the right direction. I will also tell you that I don't believe that guys like Roger Penske and Rick Hendrick are probably,

able to keep things going without some of the connections that they have business to business with people. I believe Jeff, when he says, look, they have made money in a long time. Rick does it a lot of passion. So there's got to be some business change to make that a viable a viable business, right? And I don't, I'm not privy to the numbers and, you know, the tracks, to this, the that. But if they're If everybody really wants to have that old, hey, a good deal is a good deal for everybody that's fair. It'll work, right? But if one side or the other is too greedy, I think the only one that's going to get hurt is the fans again.

No different than when we've seen things split with whether that's IndyCar, you know, even Formula One had a rough time for a while. But it's a critical, it is a critical time for sure. but what we don't want to have, and I know you don't want this either, is three or four cars running up front and everybody else just getting past. I find it pretty fascinating that, you know,

I feel like that a lot of the investors at 2311 having experience in sports outside of NASCAR came in and they saw this business model and they went, wow, this is different. It's how we've always done it. I think five years ago, before 2311, the teams would have probably agreed to a similar deal that they're being offered today, but you have a lot of new people in the ownership side of it that are, that are, have

experience outside of NASCAR and other forms of sport going, this is not a good model for the teams. This, this model needs to change drastically. One of the things that's being asked from, from NASCAR is that the charters become permanent. And I, I think, I don't, I don't, know whether, I don't know where I feel, how I feel about that. I think if you spend $40 million for one, you'd like to think that it's yours forever, you know, you being an owner and thinking, have you, you know, imagining what it would have been like to have had the charters back then, all that investment that you made to start your team with Dodge, would you want, when you want that charter to be yours? Yeah, I mean, I would, you know, when I, again, I look at it,

And, you know, we talk about, you know, 2311 coming in and, you know, even all the way back to when Rob Kaufman and those people come in, if our sport's going to continue to grow, right, it's going to have to attract the big money, you know, and a lot of these people that are involved with have been in, you know, the NFL, the, you know, NBA, Major League Baseball. Yeah. They see things in a, in a different light. So that's, as I talk about that evolution, you know, our sports amazing, the history of our sports amazing. but it's also business-wise, gotten so big, it's got to evolve. And, you know, if you are looking at the most successful, okay, if the NFL is the big, you know, here in America, that's the big dog, right? Those franchises are permanent. I agree.

When you look at Formula One, which is right now the most, again, most successful former motorsports in the world, those franchises are permanent. So I feel like at some point NASCAR's got to say, all right, you know, we've got back to 43 permanent franchises and this is where they're at. Yeah. I hope, you know, the one thing that's tough for me to understand, though, when I look at it, and this isn't really a NASCAR or a team position, but the charter's selling for $40 million, right? Damn, I should have hung on to my team. Yeah. I could have bought charters for $2 million just a few years ago from BK racing. they were available for anyone.

So with the increase in value, what's wrong with the business model? If the value in the charter's going up so much, it makes me feel like that there's, there is some value. There is some, you know, if it can sell for $40 million, this isn't a worthless, you know, thing to own. No, it's definitely not. And, you know, and again, I don't have all of the numbers. But, you know, I'm just sitting here and say, okay, look, I get you.

But I look at it like, I look at it like. man, it's got this nice condo in Florida, and it's got some equity in it now, and you're like, man, I should sell that, but if I sell it, then I can't buy another one. So now, so like in the end, that charter really only has value if you're going to borrow against it

or if you're going to sell it. Yeah. Right. So if, but the, the business model of keeping your team in place, suppose, you know, so you're not taking a couple million bucks a year or out of your own. own pocket, I think that that has something that's got to be looked at. But again, not knowing what

the true numbers are, you know, unless those guys will come in here and open up their books, you know, I don't know that we'll ever know. There needs to be so, all right, for a person like myself, like, is it okay that the charters will become, you can always, anyone can walk in this door and say, look, man, you had your chance. You blew it. Right. You didn't get in when it was affordable, right? It's no longer affordable. For me, now it is affordable for, you know, a guy who makes hundreds of millions and billions of dollars, right? So is that the market for the car owner that we have going forward?

The billionaires, the, you know, the multimillionaires that are going to, you know, be able to afford to buy that charter? So someone like me who's raced in this sport forever, the door and the opportunity to go through that door and become a full-time competitor in the Cup series seems to have disappeared. So I can only get in unless I buy a $40 million charter. 20 years ago, I would just build a car and go. Yeah. Well, and, you know, maybe they keep, you know, a couple of spots open for somebody that wants to be in there. I think that's a good idea too.

Maybe. But, you know, that, as I talk about the evolution, whether we like it or not, you know, that's the reality of where sports is right now to go. If you were a football player or baseball player, basketball player, you'd be facing the same thing. You know, you'd have to go start yourself a high-tech company, become a billionaire and buy a basketball team, go play. You know, it's unfortunate.

But it is the reality of where the evolution of the upper, upper games are. I think that these private equity groups or big companies are going to own those things. And, you know, unfortunately, you know, there'd be guys like me that, you know, would be general managers or, you know, what it is. Yeah. You know, it's just, it's out of our reach right now.

And to stay healthy, to be able to grow, I think that's going to have to follow that. Yeah, for sure. All right. So you've been an advisor at HMS. Are you still in that same role? Or what is, what involvement, if any involvement, do you have at the NASCAR? level at the elite top level. I don't really have, other than being a member of the Hall of Fame and being a good

friends with Jeff and Rick and some people, I don't have any, you know, any official duties anymore. You know, they know that, I mean, I help with some of the PR stuff and doing, you know, this 40th anniversary and whatever, but really nothing, nothing on the NASCAR level anymore. I'm actually on the, I guess you'd call it the Appellate Board for IndyCar Racing. So if somebody was in trouble there, I get to sit on that. And I asked Jay Fry if he brought me in there just because I'd been up in front of the NASCAR board so many times. But, no, really going to put as much focus as I can on this IROC thing for the next bit and see where it goes.

Right on. All right. Who wins the championship this year? Oh, boy, you know me. It's, I'm going to go with the Daytona 500 winner because he's maturing. And I said, man, when that kid gets some time and some maturity and, you know, he seems to really like his crew chief, Rudy. And I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to jump right on the bandwagon right now and say this. William's going to bring it home.

And plus, I like the number on that car. Yeah, William Byron. He's, you know, he had a really good run last year, starts the season off strong with a big win. And I think every big milestone, you may be able to help me with this. As you and Jeff, like, achieved these massive milestones, winning the first. you know 600 at Charlotte and going into winning Daytona and Indy the bit those you know the confidence you get from those

moments at far exceed like winning a race at Rockingham or nothing to discount those wins but when you check big big big boxes like the Daytona 500 it changes you yeah as a driver people were saying I saw Bob Pockerson them saying is it is it time to put more respect on Williams name I mean the guy won six races last year was a favorite going into the championship. Might have been the favorite for the championship four there in Phoenix. I think there's plenty of respect on his name. But now he's a Dayton 500 champion and maturing at a rapid pace.

So I think it's a great pick. Next big innovation in NASCAR. When you look at the sport, like what is the next thing that you think changes and has a big impact on the sport? We've had the next-gen car come in. We may have some new manufacturers coming in. We've heard that for a decade now, but there seems to be some more talk about that. But what's the next thing that changes?

Well, I'll tell you, what I'd like to see change. I don't know if it's going on. That was my question. Yeah, I don't know. You're the CEO for a day. Okay. You got the reins. What are you doing?

I'd be sitting in there like Bill Jr. used to be right now and say, boys, we've got to figure out a way to get these cars to stop wrecking when they're pushing. Yeah. You know, we can't stop. We got to figure out how we can do that. And we also got to figure out a way to get it more back on the people at the speedway racing when I was sitting there thinking, man, it's, tell me the Daytona 500s of fuel strategy race.

Right. You know, it used to be handling, right? Yes. Strategy like that, you know, so how do we, you know, I'd be challenging everybody's table today They say, look, I need two things from you guys. I need to figure out a way that we can stop these cars from being out of control when they're pushing like that. And we can, how can we give a few more tools back to the crew chief and the driver to make their cars more suited to them? Yeah, I agree with that.

I like that. I was sitting there watching the Dates on a 500, and after the first accident, they ran two by two for 40 laps. like no movement whatsoever in the entire field. And I couldn't believe. It was like it was orchestrated so perfectly. There was nothing else happened. Nobody was breaking free in the lead. I was like, what is going on?

And, you know, it goes to the fuel mileage, and they were put in that situation because of the yellow flags falling at a unique time. But, you know, the racing to fuel mileage and racing, running the race backwards like you do the road course. It has become much more prominent in a lot of different racetracks that we go to. But, yeah, I agree with you. I was sitting there watching that Daytona 500 had the exact same opinions and thoughts about,

man, we got to get the cars to where they're handling. They're chasing them up the track. They're lifting. You know, somebody's car drives better. They drive away. Yeah. You know, not this all stuck on top of each other and, you know, crescendoing into a big crash as we get through the end of a stage or ultimately the end of the race is not a lot of fun.

What if I had said to you back, if I was your crew chief and I said, hey, I need you to run, I need you to run 52% throttle. You'd be like, what, dude? I'm not Daytona. Yeah. I got to be on the ground. Yeah. Right.

It's, you know, again, there's certain parts of evolution. You're not going to change. But we need to be thinking about directing some of that because when I buy a ticket, I want to see the athlete perform. Yeah. I want to see the athlete perform. I don't want to see the car perform. I don't want to see the computer perform. I come to watch you drive.

I come to watch Jeff drive. And we need to get it back in those hands a little bit. Well, man, I appreciate you coming and joining us today. Excited about the book. Hopefully you're getting some great feedback on the book so far. I'm sure I'm going to get some good stuff and some bad stuff, but I don't have to tell you when you write a book, you know, it's like, you know, you put yourself out there

and I did the very best I could to tell the truth and to really think about what I was feeling. I might have exaggerated here and there back when I was running, Modifies talking about how good I was or something like that. But other than that, it was really about how I feel like I have changed as a person, and that's a tribute to all of the people who helped me along the way. And they don't even know they helped me, but I want them to know that they helped me. Well, if you're a race fan and certainly if you follow Jeff Gordon's career and Ray's career,

Trophies and Scars, Ray Everingham, it's a great book. A lot of great books coming out this year. You want to have this one. You want to read it. You want to understand all the things that went on in Ray's career. Great job by that. Great job on that book. And hopefully you get a lot of great feedback.

And I know that when, in my experience, being able to put that truth out there really was a relief. and then the response from it to your point. Like, you know, a lot of people that may not have understood your decisions now knowing what was in your mind, it's extremely helpful to sort of put some things to bed and move forward in life. So hopefully that's the experience you have, Ray. We're wishing you the best. Thank you, man. Really appreciate your time.

You got to come see my Iraq car someday. I need to, man. I love to. Hey, before you leave, what is the next car you're looking to find? What's the one out there that's missing? Is there a car that you're looking for? you don't know where it is you'd love to have it oh man i'm going to tell you what there's there's a bunch of cars out there but i've been so wrapped up in this irox stuff and i'm looking at

there's there's still some general you know irock generation one camaroes and generation two camaroes that uh that that have not been found and when i say that it's irock generation so 74 to 76 i think was first gen and but those those cars though those 77 to 80 cars man And they're the ones that I really like. Yeah, they were good-looking, man. That was like a stock-bodied Camaro. Well, hopefully, maybe somebody will hear this one, this podcast, and steer you toward one and get you what you're looking for, buddy.

Appreciate you, Ray. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Ray Everingham on the Dale Jr. Download. Man, that's a great conversation with Ray. I have some good nuggets in there. The story about Dad's team and his team having a one, you know, the crew chiefs having a one way.

a single radio channel to talk during races is something I'd never heard before. And also hearing his vision for IROC. You know, I think he's certainly, that's a massive vision. That's ambitious to think that there would ever be any kind of version of the original IROC. I really don't know if that's possible in this day and age. Ray, open-minded to it, thinks there is a way forward to get there. and I think we're all pulling for that to happen.

So either way, I love the fact that he restores some NASCAR history and stock car history. He's always been a big proponent of that. And that's really what's brought me and him together over the last several years was our passion for the history and the physical history, the cars and so forth. I have a car, maybe more than one, in my junkyard that Ray gave me. out of his own personal collection that was a not it was a car that's crashed really hard at Dayton it's not a car that we would restore but he's like hey do you want this I'm like great great addition to the to the graveyard so I didn't know Ray at all really up until I started racing at Hendrick Motorsports and Ray talked about coming in as an advisor around the 2014

season now Ray's sitting in our competition meetings at a table similar to this and I got to really get to know him, really talk to him for the first time. I didn't expect us to become friends because I looked up to him and didn't think that he would have any interest in having any kind of friendship with me because of, you know, where he was in his life and all the things that he was involved in and what he'd accomplished. But we became friends and I'm thankful for that. So it's great to have him back on. Great show.

I hope everybody enjoyed it. Thank you again, Ally. no matter what you're saving for, whether it's race tickets, whether you're going to buy a car, even a house. We're all better off with an ally, and Ally's going to set us straight and on the path forward. So thank you again. Ally, for everything you do for us here at Dirty Mo Media and everything you do in the NASCAR industry. You're a great partner for all of us.

So thank you. Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi recap the action from Daytona Monday night. It was hilarious to hear Jeff talk about his two days wearing Jordan's pink suit. I actually got to see Gluck. out on pit road and he could not wait to take that thing off after the Monday races. Denny Hamlin is returned from Daytona and he's going to relive his night running in the Daytona 500 on Action is detrimental. Make sure you check that out. Door bumper clear. They returned from Monday with a special guest Bubba Wallace this week. That should be a lot of fun. He had an exciting

announcement to make on the show so make sure you tune in for this week's door bumper clear. Another episode of Speed Street drops today. Tune in to Connor and those. guys and see what all is going on in their world. And Dirty Mo Doe with Steve Lattartre returns tomorrow to preview the next race in the season in Atlanta. So you'll want to tune in to see who Steve thinks is going to take the win. Who's going to run well? And if you like to bet, who might want to put that bet on?

Check out our Dirty Air Show from yesterday, recapping the Daytona 500. Amy was a special guest. William Byron calls in. We talked a lot of crap, a lot of fun. And of course, we've got a new Dell Jr. Download spinoff podcast. called DJD Reloaded, and I hear we'll be playing more driver reactions on whether or not they give a toe for a championship.

I wanted to hear those in our Tuesday show, but you'll have to wait for the Thursday show to see what all the other drivers had to say. Also, I want to hear from you, the fans, so bring your best reactions and opinions from our shows this week or from the Daytona 500 weekend. You know, we'll be paying attention. I'll be listening to see what you guys can bring to the table. Call our new number to voice those opinions. at 704-584-9703.

Give us a call. 704-584-9703 to be on that Thursday show, DJD Reloaded. Y'all have a great week and I'll see you next Tuesday. Check out Dirtymo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.