The Dale Jr. Download - 541 - NASCAR Charters Are Big Business; Spire Motorsports’ Jeff Dickerson Breaks It Down

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

Join Kelley Earnhardt Miller in this episode of "Business of Motorsports" as she sits down with Jeff Dickerson, co-owner of Spire Motorsports. Jeff shares insights into his NASCAR journey, revealing how Spire's formation was partly accidental. Delving into the current charter landscape, Jeff discusses the increasing value of charters, the potential for permanent charters, and the implications of a spending cap for teams. Despite teams aligning on four key charter pillars, Jeff explores whether their priorities truly align. The conversation also tackles the challenges of adapting to new changes and the need for clear regulations in the sport.Jeff shares valuable advice he's received, emphasizing the importance of listening and emotional management in the fast-paced world of NASCAR.21+ and present in NC. First online real money wager only. $10 Deposit req. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com/sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 877-718-5543 or visit morethanagame.nc.gov Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The following is a production of Dirty Mo Media. Welcome to the business of motorsports. It is yours truly, Kelly Earnhardt Miller. You know, one thing that I really hope that this series does is open up people's horizons. I got in a lot of trouble, and I got challenged. I don't know why you're coming here. You don't trust us. I said, no, it's not I don't trust you.

I'm running a business. a lot of people kind of feel like well we're never getting back to where we were why do we ever get to where we were there's so much more involved in decision I mean I want to rip somebody's head off every day I stay yes to me oh you say yes on the phone well he made me say all right welcome to the bojangle studio it's kelly arnhartmiller here with you for another episode of business of motorsports and today we've got a great segment with Jeff Dickerson and our guest segment as always is brought to you by our great friends at Ally and so Jeff Jeff Dickerson I'm super excited to talk to Jeff a lot of cool insight about

the charters which is a really hot topic right now so I'm excited to talk about that a growing empire at Spire Motorsports been in the sport for quite some time and a lot of great opportunities that have taken place for you over the last several months and a pretty new announcement too for 2025. So we've got lots to talk about. So Jeff, welcome to the business of motorsports. Thank you, Kelly. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's good to have you here. So I feel like, you know, a lot of our listeners will know the name Jeff Dickerson, but let's talk about how you got into NASCAR. It was pretty early age, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I was an IndyCar spotter, you know, And I was working for Carrie Agagian over at MMI.

And, you know, they had that 43 Bush car. Remember that Johnny Sodder and everybody ran through there? Yep. And so I would spot some of the off weekends of IndyCar on that 43. And Mike Beam at PPI, like needed a spotter at Dover or Talladega for Ricky Craven. And it was California. And they were just like, I mean, it was like sight unseen. They were like, hey, well, you come out here.

And that was essentially that, right? I did like that. I was like, I got here through spotting, right? And how many years ago was that? This is in 2004, maybe, 2003, 2004. Okay. And everything happened for me like really, really quick. So like I was at PPI doing Craven.

He got hurt. You know, Bobby Jr. was in there. And Mr. Hendrick and those guys, they were building that five team, a bunch of young guys, right? And so it was the Charlotte test. Alan kind of saw me in the garage and he said, hey, you know, we might be looking to make a change. And you could say, like, that conversation like changed my life, right? Because that kind of put me in Mr. Hendricks orbit and he hasn't been able to get rid of me really since. There's nothing like being in Mr. Hendricks orbit. No, for sure. And so he's a people person. Oh, the best. And so I, that's,

and again, the agency business kept growing. You know, like I was still, you know, working at MMI. I got to work with a lot of different guys. And that was kind of like my, you know, welcome in. Or, you know, that's how I got in, yeah. So did you end up going to spot for the five car at that point? I did. You did. Okay.

And you were working with motorsports management, yeah. Management international there. And so that leads me to something interesting, which I really didn't realize. I think of you now, you know, with Spire and all of those things. And, you know, it's, I love to reflect on going back. But you were involved with Kyle Busch and going to Joe Gibbs Racing. So talk a little bit about that. Man, it was like, it was just a crazy time, right?

And I was spotting for Kyle, but Kyle was not a client of mine. Okay. But we had developed like a relationship. And, you know, again, I think a lot of spotters do develop like a real close relationship with their driver because, you know, they really are counting on you and they trust you. and you know we had heard whispers you know at this point I'm just spotting right

but it's like we had heard whispers is like man are they going to bring them back or they're not going to bring them back like what's going on you know Dale was was was was going to be a free agent and so um we it's really funny that we're in this studio right in this building right because it's like um when we Kyle called me over at Dover so this must have been 2007

June, June race at 2007. We were in a rain delay on like a Saturday, Friday or Saturday, and he called me over. And I just remember I'm being like, hey, I think some things are going to change here. I don't necessarily want to leave, right? I need you to, you know, like, I need you to represent me and I need you to kind of handle this. And so we raced on a Monday, if I remember right. I remember being in Marshall's office on a Tuesday and essentially begging them not to, you know what I mean, not to let, not to let Kyle go.

Yeah, yeah. And I had this meeting with Mr. Hendrick and it was the insight he gave me like, you know, like you could tell it was like kind of like a tough, tough decision for him, but he was just like, I will help you guys, you know, in any way. And it's all been documented now. It's just like, you know, he kind of redid Kyle's deal. It's just like, hey, let's make it through the year. like he always made it like great so the day you guys announced and it may have been here right

we did do them both here yeah when you guys and so our i'm in my office was right there and so when you got when you guys announced it is when we started our our spree right and that's when we you know we were trying to wait for your media stuff to die down a little bit so we could sneak in that was a really big deal yeah and then um before we could even make a call um the phone was ringing right or our phone was ring in. And at least looking back, and I think, you know, I would say the same thing. It's like, it might not have been where he wanted to be, but at that point, right? I mean, obviously, a great success at JGR. Absolutely. But he was going to be okay, you know, and so, and obviously he connected really well with JGR and, you know, the rest was history.

And did you go to spot for him there? Yeah, I did. So you went to spot for there. And so transition me from MMI and to Spire Motorsports and how that kind of become what it is. Yeah, so. You've been the little team that could for a while now. Yeah, it's a source of pride. Like, you know, we kind of, it feels like these opportunities choose us as much as we choose.

I think we've talked about it a little bit. It's like, you know, Spire Motorsports at the start was kind of like by accident, right? You know, like we were trying to sell the charter, you know, for Barney and those guys. And there were a couple of people, you know, you look back at now, it's just like, man, if they would have, if they would have bought it, you know, where would we be? Because we wouldn't be doing this. Yeah. You know, we would have been really happy for the commission in those days, right?

But the, you know, it all started with, they just, Barney had come over to, or Joe Garoney had come over to, you know, Ty was working for us and T. And T.J. at Vegas and said, why don't you guys do it? So you're talking about the Denver mattress team. Help me with the owner's name. Barney Vissar. Barney, yes, Barney. Fresh off a championship. I know that from Regan Smith days, and then Truex is there,

fresh off a championship, and you're working with him to move his charters. This is in the infancy of charters. What? How many years? Two, three, four. Yeah, the third or fourth year. And so, you know, because we were doing the sponsor deals. Yes.

You know, for everything that was on there, and the 77 team, you know, we had brought. Right. And so he had said, hey, why don't you? guys look at doing this and you know our building is you know our office was on top of that a quest of bank building and um i think they always came up just because we were kind of like a frat house and not a law firm kind of in a way you know and like they'd come up and they're just like what's like what's so what do you guys so quiet about like what's going on because it was never quiet and um it was a general manager guy and he were like well we got this opportunity you know

how do we kind of pull it together you know like we don't have the money for this and um they were like, give us a minute. And like in 15 minutes, like, no joke. And again, this is why we were just like the luckiest people. We had the president of the bank, the VP of the president of the bank. I mean, we had like the loan credit guy. All the stars are lined. Everybody there.

And so, and we, you know, that whole deal came together in three days. And so that kind of, you know, we went one week. We were just in the agency business. And seven days later, we somehow had a team. So am I hearing you right that in that time when you're trying to buy the charter, you essentially use the charter as collateral at the bank, yeah, which I just think is an important thing to note because of all the discussion that's going on now, that really is what helped I mean, it helped teams, right, to be able to have an asset that you can borrow against if you

need to, but it's an asset, it's a real asset. No, for sure. I mean, look, remember, I mean, we had to put up a lot more, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't as quantifiable in those days either. Yes. But, you know, I give Ty a ton of credit on this because it's like we had to come up with a business model in about 36 hours and he nailed it, right? I mean, they just nailed it.

They had good experience, Ty Norris, who ran Delenhorne Corporation for quite some time. That's right. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, it's just like you asked that and it's like, man, it could have gone a different way, like so many different. Yeah. It's funny to me because people will ask for junior motorsports, you know, well, what was your endell's vision? And this sounds similar. I mean, you didn't really have a plan.

The plan kind of fell in your lap. Same thing for us when we started this Xfinity team. We thought, you know, a year out, we would get into the Bush series at the time, the nationwide series. And the sponsor landed in our lap three months before the year before we were going to. And it's like you have to make a decision. I mean, you have to make a decision on what makes sense for you. And as scary as it was, you didn't know where the money was going to come from or how you were going to make it happen. it's like you can't not take advantage of the opportunity.

Like you said, it would be so different. Yeah, and it just kind of chose us. And it's funny, like, even when you talk about the background, you know, like you have kids, right? And everybody says it's like, you don't remember anything before, you know, like as soon as you have kids, you forget what it was like to be like before you had kids. It's almost the same thing here with this race team. Like, you know, when we talk about it, like you remember that my days and Spire when it was, you know, just getting going. You know, like, you know, Steve Phelps in our first meeting with NASCAR when they were just like, Are you guys crazy?

Like, what are you guys doing? Right? It was Steve and Steve at the hall or at Charlotte. That same year, like 18, I guess it was. And the truest words he ever said, he goes, you guys have been in a lot of deals. You guys have done a lot that nobody ever knows. You will now only be known for how you do on Sundays.

Yeah. Right? Once you become the rice thing. Yeah. And so if you don't do what you say, everybody's going to know. If you don't run well, you know what I mean? It was just like true words were never spoke because now we don't even really remember what it was like.

Right. So talk about that a little bit if you can. You know, you was unbeknownst to me that really you and your organization from a management standpoint have been involved in a lot of charter deals that have taken place up until a few years ago, which now we've, you know, been setting with nothing until recently. There you go again. And we're going to talk about that. But talk about that.

Talk about SPIRE management. I mean, you're involved in a lot of other things outside of NASCAR. You represent other companies and are involved in other sports. Yeah, we, we've been taking sponsors to race teams for, you know, not even ours, right, for years. We've put the management business, the driver management business, kind of like behind a firewall. You know, so they're now in the old MMI building and just kind of rocking. and we have these three hockey teams now in the ECHL, which again, it's just almost like the charter. They just kind of choose you, you know.

It wasn't like we woke up one day and said, hey, this would be a good idea. But, you know, you see the opportunity. You're like, man, this might be something we've got to, you know, got to do. But yeah, we've got our hands in a lot of different places. And sometimes that's chaos, right? But I got to tell you, certainly here, like the last six months, I feel like I've just, been like race team, race team, race team, race team. It's like I feel like a guilty parent because it's like I feel like I'm not paying

attention as much as I want to do like the hockey stuff or really anything because it just, it feels like once you kind of transition into like, like we're like trying, like you might not know this. We're trying to win now. And there you are. Yeah. So, you know, like everything that kind of goes into it and, you know, now we've got real sponsorship and it's just like you just can't take your eye off that ball.

Yeah, the priorities have really reset for you. right so you know you uh i mean what little i know about your business i mean you've got you've always had like an a car and a b car so to speak you know in the recent years with with one that you've been able to invest a lot of resources into and really try to put that car up front and maybe one where you know you haven't been as fortunate with sponsorship or whatnot and you you just can't look at them the same right but now you're in a situation with this most recent acquisition and charter acquisition and a relationship with GameBridge that it's a game changer.

Yeah. And like they said, you have to perform. Everybody's looking at what you're going to do on Sundays now. Yeah. And look, that's the thing that kind of sucked about last year, right? It's like the cars were the same last year. It just looked like they were. It didn't look like they were.

And that's where it's just like, you know, you'll probably hear me say it a couple times. You're like, expectations are a funny thing. You know what I mean? Like we had never thought about, hey, making changes or, hey, we got to, you know, maybe look, you know, it was the first time we had moved to crew chief during the year. It's just like, you know, those are real difficult, you know, decisions. But yeah, right now we're full blown. Everything's the same. You know, the only thing holding us back is ourselves. Yeah. So I want to go back for a second to talk about charters. I mean, you've seen the charter's trade, you know, in the single digit numbers and up until probably one of the. track house charters, you know, has been said in the low teens, you know, number. And at one point, I read that you said, six million dollars for a charter, wow, how are we going to make this work? You know, the word is on the street, the most recent charter, you know, traded at $40 million. That's quite a, whether it was $20 million or $30 million or 40 minutes, quite a difference from $6 million. How do you, you know, what does that feel like?

You thought $6 million was a risk. What does it look like now? Yeah, I mean, you look like you're crazy. You know what I mean? Like you look like you're crazy, but it's like you have to kind of insert yourself into that, right? Like, you know, we knew on Barney's charter, we knew it was beachfront property, you know,

because we had already made the sales pitch. We had made the sales pitch to everybody, right? So it became a thing where it just, It's like, do you believe what you're selling or not, right? And so we didn't, it was tie that came up with the model, right? But it was like, you know, we knew it was like really, really great. Gosh, you know I'm a disciple of Mr. Hendrick, right? It's just like, again, the risk model for us is more just like,

if you don't have anything, it's a different equation. You know what I mean? Like you can't go double broke, right? So when it's, you know, 35, 40 and wherever it's going, you know, it's like now it's really about supply and demand, right? There's the thing there's two factors that go into the charter kind of like value game right now. And that's supply and demand and when and weather, you know, we get a deal done. Yeah. Right.

And so those are the things that are kind of like fluctuating the market. And right now there's, you know, depending who you want to talk to or whatever, there's, you know, two. four, six, you know, on the market right now. And so obviously that's going to kind of, you know, depress it just a little bit, but it'll fluctuate right back up as soon as, you know, we get a deal done with NASCAR. Yeah. So what, you know, what, what as a team owner and an owner of charters and possibly, you know, wanting to maybe expand, what, what, what are you looking at from a team owner's perspective to make the value of your charter as best it can be. Yeah. It's a good question, I guess. It's like, well, hold on. I think we're cool not expanding anymore.

Okay. For right now you're safe. I think we're good. I think we're having all the fun we can stand. It's really the deal. You know, for us, it's really just the deal with NASCAR and how that shakes out when it's said and done. What we've been encouraged about in our discussions with NASCAR is just like, enterprise value is a word that they use too, right, for the charters and for us. So, you know, you just kind of like control what you can control. What's your perspective being on a charter being permanent or not? Because, I mean, obviously you've invested in the charters as they have sat over this last seven-year agreement. And, you know, again, word on the street and not just meaning you in particular, I don't, but just your overall thought process of what is that?

change if they're permanent and or not permanent because we've been operating under a system where they're not permanent. Right. I'll preface my answer by saying it's like, I don't think NASCAR wants to take them away. You know what I mean? So like just kind of like using that in the background. That would be pretty hard, I feel like. I mean, I think the same. I've thought about that too. It's like it would be a huge deal. Like, yeah. My demeanor would be totally different. Yeah. How do you look at a race team that's owned by Michael Jordan and say, hey, you put X many million down in this and You know, now we're just going to do away with them. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't think they're going to take them away. But it's just like the thing is, is like they should be permanent. Yeah. You know, they should. It operates like another sport and another franchise. Yeah. And we can get because that's kind of like something that we're always thinking about and talking about.

But it's like what permanent charters would do for the owners is I think, and we've done it without the permanent charters. is just like, I think you would find more owners taking risks like us on investing into their business, right? I also think, and this is a, I don't think anybody's really saying this, but it's something I believe, I think it brings back like owners investing in younger drivers. You know what I mean? Like, because if it's permanent, you know, now it's also easily, it's easier to go to outside investors, right?

it's easier to, you know, there's a whole market right now of people trying to get into sports. And, you know, obviously because of the deals we've done in the past, it's just like, you know, we're always getting calls, whether it's to represent them or as, hey, what's going on? And I just think it's like, it's the guys that missed out on MLS, right? Or it's the, they just want something in sports. And for, we can argue that it shouldn't be as easy to get in at these numbers, right? But it's just like, they know that for, you know, 45, 50 million, you know, they can essentially go buy a, you know, by a team, right? And that's, that's, that's a lot of money. Yeah. Except, you know,

when they're looking at $1 billion to get in over someplace else, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and look, and we're a major league team, or major league league, like, we're in the American, you know, sports landscape. And that's where I get kind of, like, because of our hockey stuff and, um, and the opportunities that come our way, it's like it, it, you know, a, a, a national woman's soccer league team trades for about $50 million right now. Wow. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so that's when you look at that and you look at our, you know, reach and the money that's in here and the sponsors that are in here in our TV package, it's like we haven't even hit the tip of the iceberg on what these charters should be worth. And furthermore, just take the charters away for a second about what this whole industry, you know, could be worth.

Yeah, the value. Right. And so that's why it's just like, I think that permanent thing has kind of become like a real, you know, buzzword and all. And we should have them permanent because it would, it wouldn't. just all the... We'll just solidify and stabilize a lot of question and unknown, right? That's right. The downstream effects of it. It's operating as if it is, right? You've operated that way over the last contract that the teams have had with NASCAR on the charter. So yeah, yeah. So, you know, now this is my perspective as we've, and I've had in-depth

conversations with you about charters and what things look like, you know, over the years. you know from from my perspective from monadale's perspective and something that you just spoke to um it's one thing to have an asset like the charter and and have a value for your company right that you've got something tangible that's worth something because there's so much goes into a race team of the sport um but but the problem that i keep stumbling over when i'm when i'm looking at the risk that i'm willing to take and and you know granted del and i are at a different place in our life in terms of I feel like we've lived a life of 25 years doing what we've done, right? So do we want to invest another 25 years, being 50 years old?

What do we want to do, right? But, you know, the thing that I stumble over is just kind of the whole model, right? Sponsorship, I know in the Xfinity series is really tough. It doesn't seem as tough in Cup, but it's still really tough. I mean, but you are seeing sponsorships out there. I mean, I feel like, you know, you look at Track House, they've done a great job of, of putting sponsors on their car as a new team. And so that's kind of where I get hung up as like that business model to,

if you really want to be in the sport for the long haul as an Earnhardt would, the value of the charter is one thing, but it doesn't make what the day-to-day operations, you know, go around, right? And so I really feel like that's kind of the stumbling block for us is like, you know, how do you make all that makes sense? Do you think about that? Do you have worries about that? What's your thought on that?

And it's very different from our Xfinity position than your cup position. Yeah, but here's the thing. Tying like your previous question into, you know, kind of like this answer. Yeah. And a permanent or really hard to lose charter model, you know, going forward in the Earnhardt name and with, you know, these investment groups that are trying to get in, I mean, I would, kill to take you guys up to New York and say, hey, Stale Jr. and Kelly, have at it. You know what I mean? Like that makes it, you know, but in those kind of discussions,

that's the kind of the issue. It's hard to look these guys that are trying to get into other sports and be like, well, yeah, but it's not quite permanent. It's not this. You know what I mean? Like it just kind of, it becomes more of a trust instead of just like, hey, it's on paper. The time stuff you just can't get past, right? I mean, you can't get around it. It's just crazy, like we talked about it. It's just like, you know, my focus is. now become on this. And that is with like Doug DuCart running the place. I mean, it's not like we have like, you know,

a bunch of kids over there just running, you know, playing race team. It's like we got a legit. Great how there, by the way. Yeah. Doug's a stand-up guy and smart and. Yeah, it's the best. And it still just takes everything, you know, like I always like, go to Mr. Hunter. It's just like, how do you run all these dealerships and this?

You know, like I feel like I'm not doing something right, you know. But it's, look, I mean, you guys could do it. You know what I mean? Like I think it's just in your world. Yeah, I don't have any doubt that we could do it. It's just like what keeps you up at night and trying to do it. You know, and I think that's where it's like how much energy do you want to expand in that part of it? Because, you know, it is, I mean, our whole marketing landscape just within the world has changed with the introduction of social and digital. And, you know, that's so much less expensive to play in that world than our traditional, what we, you know, we as a sport, competed against traditional print TV media type advertising budgets, right? So if Don Dissoap wanted to, you know, spend X dollars on TV running commercials or do they want, you know, a hauler in a race car going around in circles and up and down the road, and what was that value? Now the values are so different, you know, with social and digital into the world.

So, you know, we're seeing less of the kind of spins that we've seen in the past. So that's just the only part that kind of worries me is that business model, which I know that's another thing that from a charter perspective and an owner's perspective that you guys are lobbying for is to make, you know, the P&L look look better. Yeah. And like I think, again, some of these things get lost in all the noise, right? It's just like what NASCAR is talking about doing is getting, it's not like they're saying they're being like, we're not giving you guys.

Yeah, right. And so, like, I think they hear that. And that, you know, as it pertains like, you know, to hypothetical, you know, J.R.M. Cup series program, it's like, you know, if the money jumps up, right, that is less money that you have to spend or less money you have to get, you know, from sponsorship. Yeah. You know, this cost cap thing is floating around, you know, so like, you know, you look at, you know, revenues going higher. You know, if a cost cap, you know, gets phased in, you know, and sponsorship, it's like, you know, you know, you wouldn't. What is your perspective on spending cap in that discussion? I could go either way, you know, on it. What's advantages and disadvantages? The disadvantage for us would be,

it would be so funny that we finally hit our ass on sponsorship. And then you can't spend. Yeah, then you get limited. I think what it does is, again, it's like, you know, as you talk about other sports leagues and so forth, it's like salary cap, everybody knows about it. Everybody plays around it. It's not, it's just incorporated in.

You know, I do think it jumps up your enterprise value. You know, if we had a cost cap and guaranteed revenues from NASCAR, again, you know, just in business. You know, if your expenses in some ways are fixed and your money's guaranteed, it's like, yeah, you're probably going up in enterprise value. So, you know, I don't want to say it on both sides. It's like I would be generally for it. I'm certainly open to it, and I think it would tighten up the garage a little bit, you know, as far as, as far as spending. But, you know, again, some of that wouldn't include, you know, your drivers and wouldn't include, like, your front office, you know. And as you do, too, right?

It's just like, it's funny how, you know, in every series, we compete off the track as much as we do on the track. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that's, you know, if we can still compete there, like we really, we really. enjoy competing in that place too. So it's like, you know, whatever they decide is cool. But, you know, if you ask me right now what I would do, I was like, yeah, I'd vote for it. I'd be cool with it. What, I don't know if you could answer this question by what I'm asking anyway. What, what is, I guess maybe just by percentage wise, are the teams in a unified stance for the most part or is it like 70 or for XYZ and 30 are not or what's kind of what's the lay of the land as you

go into these negotiations so the teams are unified on four points okay so the four points we've been seeing in the news right and and that is not like that is 100 percent these are the four points for the 16 chartered teams it's the tactics I think where everybody's not unified yeah yeah okay great point right it's not the it's not how you go about getting there how you go about getting there right and i think you know like we talked about regular sports leagues and sports leagues and hey this is how they do it here and this is how they do it here and that's right that's how it should be um that's not here right and i think that's you know um that's kind of the you know that's one of the challenges is just like this as much as we want it to be like every sports league it's not yeah right it's it's family owned and

that's just how it is and you know this as much as I do it's a privilege to be in the sandbox and that's just how it goes right we've all been called to the NASCAR hauler and know that this sport can go on without us and yeah that's and that's true I mean actually right so um that's that's that's kind of it's just kind of it's just how you get there more of the negotiation right what people are looking for and how they get there and whatnot and how they rank those four yeah you know yeah and that's that's really the interesting part without you know giving the game up right it's like that's the interesting part. It's like permanent charters are important for, you know, for some it's their biggest issue and for some it's their third or fourth biggest issue.

And, you know, for guaranteed revenues, it's just like, you know, some people would give up some of the guaranteed revenue to have permanent charters, right? And it's like, I think we're all on the same page on governance, but, you know, we have that now, right? And I just mean like if they were changing something materially with the car, you know, we have to work with the teams. But it's just how you get there. I think that's one of the things that I've experienced in the Xfinity series is just in talking about, you know, as as the world turns and things change in the world, people, how they consume our sport, how what they're willing to spend on our sport, how we go to market with our sport, how do we go to market with the sponsors? As all that changes, our sport hasn't. being as quick to adapt with it, which I feel like has put us in this spot that we're in.

You guys are in it on the cup side where you're needing pretty significant massive changes to better your position, to better the team's positions. Same thing on the Xfinity scene. It's like I want somebody just to give me the rules and tell me these are the rules I got to play by and then I'll decide if I can do it. But it's not that easy. Because we all have such an investment in the past that would shatter some of us to go forward in the future, you know? So, because I'm often just like, oh, my gosh, I'm just so tired of these conversations. Like, what does this look like? What does we do here?

And do we do this? Do we do that? And so, just give me the rules. And I can decide if I can play by the rules. But it's just not that simple because we all have such, you know, we just, there's a lot of different types of investment, a lot of different risks that has been taken by different people. we all have different

advantages. I mean, junior motorsports greatest advantage is Dale Jr., right, and the Earnhardt name. So what we can do and what works for us doesn't work for Johnny Davis's team or whatever it might be, you know, so that's really the hard part. You've experienced that

on your end? Yeah, I mean, like it's just different, right? You know, like, here, there's some advantages, well, hold on, to your first point. What sucks is, these are complex issues. Yes.

Right? Yeah. And, you know, you and I could do this show for seven hours. Like, you know what I mean? Like, seriously, just on how, because these are, like, it's hard to take. Well, and that's kind of the point I want to make to our listener is like, it is complex. Yeah. And it's not simple just to say X, Y, Z.

And, you know, as much noise is out there, running these businesses are very difficult. Yeah. And they're family businesses, you know. Yeah. Most of them are. Yeah. So it's emotional, you know, like it's emotional, it's an emotional issue. because both sides in some ways

that's their family business, right? You know, look, coming from the hockey side for the perspective, there's been plenty of times in league meetings where I'm just like, what the hell is going on in here? Right? Because it's a league, right? So there's 30 of us trying to figure out the rules or trying to figure out this or figure out that. And I'm just like,

where the hell is the France family? Yeah, just tell us what to do. Just tell us what to do. Because I mean, kind of like what you're saying, And they're just like, they would just tell us what the rules are, you know. And over here, it's kind of funny. It's just like, in some ways we're just like, just tell us what the rules are. And in other ways, we're just like, let us tell you what.

Yeah. Let us tell you how we want to do this. So, but again, because it's just, again, it's so complex. And it's, again, who ranks what, where, you know, because that's the other part. When you talk about this changing landscape, the teams in NASCAR at all series, and all the national series, we should all be working together, right, to, quote unquote grow the sport, right? And to promote our sport. And there's, you know, we, there's a way to do all this in a way that

everybody wins. It doesn't matter if you're a truck team or a cup team. You know, we all should be, you know, trying to lock arms with NASCAR and do this together because it's the only, in my estimation anyway, I think it's the only way for us to cut across. It's going to take a coordinate. It's the best opportunity by far. For sure. It's going to have to be coordinated because, you know, it's so funny to say it like this, right? It's just like, we are competing. with, you know, some content creator on YouTube that's making, you know, 12 million views or whatever. I mean, now you're going in and you're talking about NASCAR and you're legit competing with like

a 14-year-old, you know, person that's like dancing, yeah, dancing like, you know, yeah. So you're, that's, that's your new world, right? So it's like, how do we cut through that? And I think we all have to do it together, you know, in my, at least my opinion. Yeah, and that involves a level of transparency. and I think that's what that's been hard to achieve with everyone, you know. But you need everybody to be like, it has to be honor amongst thieves if you're going to be transparent, right?

And that's the other part. That's the hard part. Yeah, that's what I was going to say is like for years when it was all going well. And when things go well, even in your own world, when things are going well, you don't need to tell anybody anything and you don't need to work that much harder. But when it does get hard is when you need all hands on deck, right? And that's kind of where we've been these last few years. What have you seen? You talked about, you know, just really the need to join hands with everybody.

What have you seen over the last year? I feel like NASCAR has the Netflix show. There have been a lot of things that investments made for this sport for the betterment of it. Are you seeing some positiveness with that? Yeah. And I guess, yes, because everything moves the needle. Like certainly a Netflix show, you know, moves the needle. And you see NASCAR and what they've invested. And the teams are investing too, right? And even if we're doing it for ourselves, quote unquote,

we're still doing something for the sport, right? Absolutely. It's just, it's just maybe it's spending those dollars in the right places, you know what I mean? But it's like you, it's lost on, sorry, I'm tilting out because about a million things are going through my head. I think that's one of those issues, right? It's like, I don't know that sometimes NASCAR sees what the teams have done.

And I don't think the teams sometimes see what NASCAR has done. And that's why it's like we can just remove that thing off the table, period, if we could just lock arms. Because what you just point out doesn't get pointed out enough, right? It's like right now because the charter stuff is making so much noise, it's like it almost blocks out, you know, the 99% of the time that we all cooperate with NASCAR, even through a charter negotiation that, you know, has gone off the rails a couple times, right? It's like, we're still having them in the shop. We're still doing like, it's just kind of like this, it's weird. but it's like those success stories aren't making it through because of what's going on. And, you know, between the teams, we still are having to be so competitive for sponsorship and people and all the things, right?

I was just watching, I just saw, you know, just speaking of what the teams are doing and the value ad, Carson Hosever's digital content today. Unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. So good. It was so funny. So great. And the whole part in there about Dale Jr., I mean, that really resonated with me.

And I actually retweeted it and shared it. But that's the kind of thing you're talking about. Like, we all lift each other up. The problem is, should I be retweeting Spire Motorsports's stuff? No, absolutely not. Do I want to help you grow your numbers? No, not really. You know, but in a model where you knew that all 52 cards were up in the deck,

what's that a good Joe Mattis saying, right? All 52 cards face up. We all understand how. we fit in the ecosystem. We're all participating in the ecosystem from, like you said, from grassroots up, right, to cup. And but, but, you know, there's still a lot of competition there, right? That it's hard to let go of because you're fighting for your business.

Well, one of my stupid ideas is because we're at this intersection as an industry and we're, walking into the next, you know, charter agreement, but it could be at any level. you know like in f1 there's like a contract board you know what i mean like you know like i don't know a lot about f1 well there's like you know like all driver contracts you know and like oh get looked at and your employees and all that so you don't because i think that would lead to more transparency because you know how much it sucks here and you know i've i've been in plenty of skirmishes and i just hate it because you know you're going to run into them at you know a dinner right yeah yeah and that's the thing here is this like we all live together our kids all play together

Yeah. We all do everything together. We're going to have to face each other somewhere. We've got to face each other. And we're, you know, I just hate it because you're just like, man, you're just like taking each other's sponsors and you're taking each other's people and you're taking each other's people and you're taking each other. Like, you know. Yeah. And you're trying to outbid the next person or whatever it is.

Like it's really difficult. Yeah. I mean, you know. And yeah, you don't, you don't do it. I mean, you sort of do it selfishly because you're trying to protect your own investment because you're not participating in the whole picture. That's right. I mean, you don't do it. maliciously. Right. Yeah. That's what I'm saying like I just think I just think that board if we could come up with some kind of

thing on contracts and so forth I think it would contribute to like what you're saying that have that kind of transparency because you know I'm not taking this from you right and this is there. I don't want to take something from you because you're going to kick my ass but other teams I would like to know what's the what's the rules of engagement before I get into a dark alley you know what I mean so yeah what do you see what do you feel like the time frame is to get to an agreement? I mean, we have to get to an agreement by the end of this year, right? Yeah, yeah.

Time's just ticking away. Yeah, like, I think we're close to, I mean, you know, this is the question right now. You know, and O'Donnell said, hey, we're close to a deal, right? And everybody's just like, are we? And so, like, I'm of the mind, like, yeah, we're close. Yeah. Right. And what I've been saying to people is like, we're close whether we know it or not.

Yeah, there's a deadline. It's got to come, right. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, I know NASCAR is going to start sending paper over. Yeah. Nobody wants it to go the other way for sure. And nobody can afford for it to go.

Nobody can afford for it not to get done. So from both sides. No, for certain. And, you know, the, you didn't ask me this, but it kind of popped through my mind. And I've said it a couple times is it has to get done. Yeah. Right? It just, it has to get done.

And it's not, you know, you hear all the things like, it's like, are the team's not going to show up or something like that. I have contracts with sponsors. Yeah. You know what I mean? You got to get somewhere. Yeah. Like my thing is not, my thing, you know, we do have an agreement with NASCAR, obviously we all do. But it's, you know, your relationships with sponsors are so fragile, right?

And so there is no way we are not going to the Daytona 500. You know what I mean? Like there is no way we are not going to whatever the next race is or the next race is because we've already signed those contracts. Right. So, you know, where we sit, it's just like we want to get the best deal. You know, we can, right? And the teams have legitimate issues. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, our issue is not going to be them. It would be sponsors if we didn't show up, right? And so that's kind of like we're, you know, and look, you could say, hey, so do they. Yeah. Right. So we're all kind of boxed in. So let's just, we just need to figure it out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, good point. What about other revenue streams? Do you, you know, outside of what you're looking for, under the charter agreement and kind of that guaranteed revenue.

What other revenue streams do you maybe see on the horizon or feel like are out there for our sport or teams, cup teams? I mean gambling, paramutual betting. I don't know. The gambling thing's a big thing. I can't, I don't remember the exact statistic, but I was floored as soon as North Carolina opened up gambling. What was it?

I think I heard it was like three weeks and North Carolinians had bet like $600 million dollars or something crazy. I'm like, where's all this money coming from? Yeah, I mean, like, look, as you know, it's like, you know, with our hard cards and everything, you know, like, I know. Yeah, we can't do it. I love a friendly wager, you know what I mean? I love betting on sports.

I do not bet on hockey. I do not bet on racing. I don't know. At Daytona this year, did you see like there was like a bet MGM or some thing in the, in the, in the infield there? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I just thought that was a sting operation. get us to yeah you know what I mean like they're just they're just like so like we just walk to see who we can get yeah but like yeah the gambling things is a is a big thing and um you know

other sports leagues are are working with them um you know but look you know I'm I'm blank on that's just what's coming into my mind it's like paramutual stuff that's the first thing that comes to mind for me as well you know but it's like there's so many like the rights with um the rights that the teams have like with NASCAR you know a NASCAR is muscle you know because they're the league we know we can generate new revenue right and I think the thing you know for the teams is just like okay how much of that are we how much is it fair yeah how we're going to participate right exactly and I think NASCAR signal that they're willing to you know work on that and I think it's just you know it's important right it's one of those four yeah it's just again it's just like how do we

How do we arrive at it? It's funny. How do we define it? Yeah, it's funny. It just, that just made me think of, you know, I think that our fans, and we just have incredible, great, loyal fans, but we talk about the complexity of this business and running the car store here for Dale and Kevin and Jeff and Justin. The girls that work on that account, they, you know, they're used to our grassroots tracks,

which are happy for us to be there. They're happy for people to come and be a vendor and do all this stuff. And so they've been working with North Wiltspur with this upcoming Cars Tour and the All-Star Race. And they've been coming across fees for different things, like fees for setting up the souvenir trailer, fees for a vendor to come in. And I'm like, yeah, that's how this works. And they're just floored, you know, because they haven't had that experience yet. I point that out just going back to the whole circle of how we can participate and how,

because that's important. Those fees for a racetrack have been important. What they, you know, when our sponsors go in to sample or set up and a fee is paid to the track or whatever, you know, again, just going through that whole ecosystem of participation because it gets disappointing when your sponsor can't activate. You know, they have the dollars to come into the sport, but then they can't. can't take their program on the road with you. That's right.

And do stuff, right? Not saying that the tracks don't need to make the money because I know they do. But somehow we have to figure out how it works for everybody because I have definitely seen, you know, I've seen the sponsorship graveyard through the years, right? Same, same. Right. Right. It's really got to be a combination of interest, right?

Yeah. I mean, we always talk about conflict of interest. It's got to be a combination of interest because, you know, when we go to those race tracks, you know, it's like our. We need to sign combination of interest agreements instead of conflict of interest agreements. Seriously. Because like, you know, just like you're saying at the racetrack, it's like it's team sponsors that are buying those suites. It's team sponsors are doing the hospitality.

It's like we need to come up with something where they don't feel so taxed. Yeah. Because again, like I said, it's like these relationships are so fragile. You know what I mean? Like you don't, you just don't know when they're going to go crashing into the graveyard, right? And so. But it also just kind of, you're talking about that ecosystem. That's why it's just like we have to lock arms, right?

It's like we are all participating in this, right? We're all trying to get to the same thing. That's right. Yeah. And have the same success. Yep, for sure. Yeah. With the NASCAR season well underway, it seems like the new diecast releases from Lionel racing just keep on coming.

You got Chase Elliott's universe throwback. That's the throwback to my victory in the 2014 Daytona 500. Their late model diecast built on Lionel's brand new tool that we were begging them to release. And then you have the raced wind cars that Lionel offers every week. For collectors like myself, it can be a lot. to keep up with. So if you want to make sure that you don't miss an important diecast when it's offered, then you'd be wise to sign up for the latest news from Lionel Racing, the official diecast of NASCAR. To sign up, just go to the homepage of LinnellRacing.com, scroll to the sign up for emails box and

enter your email. It's that easy. And for the latest diecast content, don't forget to follow Lionel Racing on Facebook, X, Instagram, and TikTok. So a couple things I want to touch on from the team perspective. What are you seeing with the new car? I know it's not the new car anymore. But how has that affected you for Spire Motorsports in terms of competition and competing against what we referred to as the big dogs? Yeah, I mean, we have our moments.

Yeah. Right? I mean, like I thought Carson was a legitimate top 10 car, top 12 car, you know, at Kansas. And we could say that. We know it's working because we can say that after, of the however many races we've had, it feels like we've had really good cars and we could be like a top 15 car. And I know some people would like, you know, be like, oh, top 15, Jesus Christ. But like if you're in the top 15, you are in the race. Yeah. You know, like you have the pace to like take two and try to win the

race, right? You know? So it's done its job that way. It's also done it where it's just like, it's just we're all on top of each other. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. There's, there's 36 spots. So somebody has to finish one through 36. Yeah. And there's really no bad. And if you're, if the competition is that close, that's what you won't. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's no bad cars anymore, right? You know what I mean? Like, everybody's, like, everybody's trying to do their best. Yeah. So it's, it's tough because it's the same car and it's the same pieces and it's the same whatever. Like, you are, you're really just fighting for millimeters, you know, and setups and stuff like that because it makes a difference. But I, I, hold on. Yeah, really how you control the variables at this point, right? The driver

strategy, pick crew, those kinds of things. Right, you got to, I mean, you know, same thing at the extent, you have to execute your day, right? You have to execute your day. But that's, that's, and it's way more important to execute when you are on top of each other. There's not a lot of people that, you know, like you saw the 24 car starting at the back, you know, and I don't know that he ever did make it all the way up to the, you know, the front.

And there's some races where he's been in the back and he can drive to the front, right? So it's like you just see how tough it is to even over 400 miles to just get there. Yeah. but look we are we are happy exactly where we're at and and and how we you know kind of like on our journey it's just like it feels like we're in the race you know like it feels like if we can just execute we can make make noise what about all the conversation with um the competition you know we're hearing a lot this year out of different drivers between the mile and a halfs i mean the racing has been so good on the mile and a halfs versus the road courses versus the short tracks

etc you know do you see that kind of evening out what what can what can we expect to make that kind of even out or are we just going to have what we got some way in some ways for you and me it shows that we have now lived long enough that the mile and a halfs that were panned and being painful right they were painful now we're just like how many more can we get on the schedule i thought about that this week when i was listening to dale yeah so i mean like it just it goes in cycles but like look I don't think there's anybody team side or NASCAR side that doesn't know we got to fix the short tracks. That's really, because you look at Kansas

and it was the best race, like start to finish, you know, I know this is hyperbole. It's probably like the most complete, awesome race I think I've ever seen. For us to have the amount of close finishes that we've had this year, it's just been incredible. Yeah. So like that first stage with the five and the one next to each other, it felt like 80 laps, you know?

Like, this is really great. crazy and that's where it's kind of like hard because it's like we all should be super appreciating that because it's you know we get some elements of that almost every meal and a half weekly for sure yeah yeah yeah we're just so good at like just squeezing it too tight you know what I mean as an industry and the fan base it's like man we really eat our own you know yeah right that's a good way to put it all right what about TV what are you looking forward to with the new partners and the streaming coming involved in 25 and beyond Yeah, like I'm not afraid of the streaming, you know, that's where we're going.

You know, like, I mean, I stream at home. I figure that, you know, all of us, I'm not like, you know, I'm not like Gen X or whatever the Gen Z. Whatever the cool one is now. Gen ZZ, I don't know. So it's just like, I know how to stream. So I'm assuming that everybody else knows how to stream. I don't understand them technologically savvy, but, you know, I have an Amazon account,

you know, I got my prime, you know, so it's like if I can order kitchen utensils, I can probably figure out, you know, now I can do NASCAR. How to get to the race? Yeah, I can do NASCAR. So it's just how it is, right? Like you just see like what the NBA did. It's evolving. Yeah.

The NBA, you know, essentially did the same as what NASCAR did. It's like they, you know, they were, they needed a number or they were hoping for a number. They just did it three or four different ways and spread it all out. Yeah. That's what, you know, that's what we did and that's how it is. That's how it's going to be. And that's where I, it's like, I don't know. There's just no use being like, you know, like you don't read newspapers anymore.

Right? you know what I mean you go online right it's the same deal it's just like we have to stop like being like well this is what it was and yeah there's no in today's times there's no one perfect scenario you know uh cable's not a perfect scenario satellite is not a perfect streaming is not a perfect scenario all the different ways that you can consume television because that's the one thing i you know was reading just some comments oh well you know screw that I don't have Amazon and then I, you know, was reading, there's $180 million, $180 million Amazon subscribers.

Right. So, okay, I'm sorry if that person can't get Amazon. Hopefully in the 180, there's somebody new that gets turned on to our sport, right? Because that's what has to happen. I talk about this. We were just talking about this this morning with LW, you know, my husband. And we were talking about, we always, you know, raising kids and we get enamored and crazy about how. Much screen time is he having and, oh, these devices and oh, this is, you know, ruining our lives

right now and why do kids have to mess with this? And I'm like, your parents, their parents, they all had these types of conversations. Now, we're having them a lot quicker these days because the world's turning like every 10 years instead of every 50 or so. But that's how I think about our sport. I mean, we have to grow. We have to change. We have to adapt. We can't stay stagnant and it will grow and change and you're going to have some that are, you know, not happy about it. And then hopefully we find some new fans, just like we did with Netflix. I mean, the numbers that NASCAR pointed out of the age range was staggering that were turned on to our sport. Yeah. And that's what we need. Yeah. And you touched on, you know,

we're just talking about like, hey, they're on their phones and they're on this. Whether we like it or not, that's how it's consumed now. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like that's just how it is. And It's like they come out of the womb now knowing how to work cell phone. That's right. Well, that's my fault too. I mean, I gave our kids, you know, they're probably one. Their first iPad. Yeah, they know exactly what to do.

But that's kind of like we have to be able to not throw, be like, oh, that's stupid. Yeah. Like we have to lean, we have to start leaning into that more, you know, because that's, that's almost as important. Like who's consuming it and how much as a TV number, right? Yeah. And finding the benefit. Yep. You know, and controlling the benefit, right?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. NASCAR fans, Fandul, America's number one sports book is here, and right now new customers get $200 in bonus bets, guaranteed when you bet your first five bucks. Just go to fendule.com slash dale to sign up. Then you can bet on everything from individual race winners to prop bets to which drivers are going to take home the championship,

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It's been a great conversation, lots of good, good insight for our listeners. I might know what your answer he is, but maybe I don't know. So I want to ask about the best advice received. You know, some intriguing advice that stuck with you, some advice throughout, you know, your NASCAR journey. And even if it's not with your NASCAR journey, what's some good advice that you've received? Well, there's probably been a couple, right?

I mean, the two names that are popping in my head is like, is from Carrie Agaghanian. You know, Mr. Hendrick has given me tons. You know, Ken House. Remember Ken House? Oh, yeah. Ken House gave me tons. You know, I probably still have the demerit record at Hendrick, you know.

When I was younger, this is probably 04, 0304. I was still living in Indianapolis. And Carrie gave me a, like, it was like he validated me, right? He was like, because I was doing all the years. USAC stuff there and bringing the kids down. And all the Dodge Motorsports people were in town. Like, and, you know, like John Fernandez and, God, there's, I think one of the girl's name was Denise.

You know what I mean? It's like there's just like Kevin Miller, like they were all in town. And we were going to like St. Elmo's or someplace for dinner, right? And, you know, have Carrie, got the executive branch. I'm saying this because I say this to these kids that work for us now. a lot. So I go to this dinner and I'm surrounded by all these people and I must have talked the whole damn dinner. Right? Like I talked like you know, no some of them that some of them they were asking questions but it was just like you know, I don't know what the fuck. I was just talking right? And so

we're walking I'm walking Carrie back to his hotel and and he was and Kerry I worked for him for I can't tell you how many years he probably only told me what to do twice right because he was always like really good about just empowering you and letting you find your way. Put my hand, he put his hand on me and he goes, how do you think that went? And I was like, oh my God, that was awesome. I mean, we had, you know what I mean? Like whatever. He goes, yeah, and that cool?

We had all the Dodge Motorsports people. Maybe we should have listened to them. Right? Like, you don't have to talk. You know what I mean? And like, I just, that always just sticks with me. It's like, you know, you go to these big, sponsor deals and you go to like these all these sponsor dinners and you just talk over them.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I've always just like, that's one of the things. It's like you don't have to talk. Yeah. You can just shut up. Yeah. And so that's, you know, that was a really good advice from him.

And then I remember with Ken House when I was spotting for Kyle, right? And I could, there's probably a million, you know, he's got these great, you know, saying is like you know one is just like you know let's not build a snake we have to kill later you know what i mean kind of a thing let's don't build a snake we have to get a later right and um but i was spotting for kyle right and it was the same um and it's not like 20 24 Kyle i mean i had like 2006 Kyle and it was crazy and you know our radio was just crazy and you know you get into these things where you know you just you kind of see like spotters are just dumb right in general we're just dumb and um somebody's going to get mad at you for that

Well, I'm just saying like, we're like, hold on. I was about to say we think we're the show, but you gave him a show. But it's like, you know, I remember just being like we were at Vegas or someplace and he was coming apart and like I was egging him on. You know what I mean? I was like, man, you're a man, Kyle. Yeah, you're right. This is stupid.

Like, what the shit? And on Sunday morning, you know, I would get to the racetrack six hours before the race, right? Because you had to beat traffic. And, you know, you get a call from Ken. Come on in. So I walked in. And he was just like, hmm, do you know who you are? Do you know who you're spotting for?

I'm like, yes, sir. He's just like, you know, he can be a little hot, you know? And he's just like, perhaps we don't put fire on that flame. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it was kind of that thing where it's just like, you don't have to exacerbate a situation. You don't have to dump fuel on something that is coming apart. And I just remember those things now.

I try to be chill anyway. but like I'm I consciously do that now because of that conversation because you're always they make sense later as you're going through that's right so like you know if it doesn't matter if it's your partner doesn't matter you know kids you don't have to egg them on yeah you know I mean just help chill it out don't egg them on that's one of the things I love about Joe Mattis here is that what you know we when you go into conversations no matter what sponsors or whatever it is or or co-workers or whatever or whatever it's like we're going to listen. So we don't have like you, there's no way you can figure out what your response needs to be before you even have the conversation, right? So listen, that's the first thing. Like you don't have to say anything. You don't have to agree on anything today.

You don't have to like it. You don't have to do any of those things. Just listen, right? And you don't have to make any agreements or whatnot. So I love that advice. Now for a lot of people, you've mentioned Carrie Agarjaney and a lot. Tell everybody who Carrie Agaghani is because he's been in the sport of on time. Yeah, I mean, like, so everybody knows Parnelli Jones, right? And, you know, Parnelli, when he was winning, you know, IndyCar races and the Indy 500, he was driving for Carrie's dad, right? So Carrie, you know, grew up around all of that. And, um, Carrie went on to become a lawyer. And then in, like, I want to say, I might have the years wrong.

Yeah. You know, somewhere in the 95, 96, he started, like, working with John Andretti, right? And doing his deals. And actually even before that, you know, he was involved with the Jeff Gordon stuff, you know, back in those days. So he's just like, man, all these things are going. Maybe we should start a company. Then there was a guy who was unbelievable in a midget and sprint car and was hopping into an indie car. And it totally changed his business, Tony Stewart, right? And so it's who I know the name with is Tommy.

Yeah. And so, you know, he built this great firm with so many branches. And it's funny. He's like, even when we all run into each other, you know, it kind of sucks that we couldn't do it all under one roof. Yeah. Because it was unbelievable because you had Rod, who's now over at fuel. You had Chris Bybee, who's got his own stuff.

We have our own, you know, what we're doing. It's just crazy. About branched out. Yeah. But learned from one of the best. Yeah. And he was, you know, and I'm not saying we followed everything because he was also a guy where it's just like, you don't have to fight.

You know what I mean? Like you can get to the same exact place, you know, without the emotion or without, you know, just try to, you know, keep it simple, right? Yeah. And it's funny because, you know, when you're asking, like, best advice you ever received, it's like our sponsor, you know, Cambridge, you know, Dan Towers. He, you know, he has a thing where he's just like, you know, emotion doesn't equate to winning, you know. It's kind of like that same line, you know, that's where having Carrier like super similar.

But like, you know, Kerry's a legend, you know. He has a legend, that's right. Yeah, everybody should know who he is if they don't. Yeah, exactly. But he's a total legend. His name is in a lot of circles and he's, he's done a lot of big things. So, awesome. Well, this was fun.

I appreciate the insight and talking charters and talking the future of Spire and just kind of race team stuff in general. And certainly appreciate you coming in today. And again, a big thanks to Alli for bringing this guest segment to us with Jeff and Jeff Dickerson of Spire Motorsports. Hey, fans, Carla Gevhart here. Mark your calendars for Thursday, May 23rd for Junior Motorsports Fan Day presented by Lionel Racing, where Dirtymo Media will have a full day of live shows featuring some of your favorite personalities. At 10 a.m. Andrew Curlin from the download and Jordan Bianchi from the

Teardown will host the Dirty Mo Game Show where you, the audience member, can compete for awesome prizes. What's your name where you from? Heather and Virginia. Carolyn, Virginia. I love your sunglasses. Just to keep the bad vibes out? Bad vibes. Yeah. And we can't have any bad vibes here. We have to discuss the elephant in the room. You look damn good, my friend. Oh, I'm so hard being Jeff Gluck. In 1115, AM door bumper clear will bring their humor and insight to the to preview all the races that weekend at Charlotte Motor Speedway. Sucks some toes? Why?

He's definitely got white rocks at his metal box. Do you think that was the same guy that was shaving his wife's back last week? 145 on DJD Reloaded. I'm going to share the stage with Dirty Mo Media President Mike Davis and Dell Jr.'s long-time spotter T.J. majors to celebrate the early years of the download and discuss what's around the corner for Dirty Mo Media. Junior with a 12-place finish at Sonoma, Mike. Did you see my man, Dukes a Hasseh.

it through the grass. The Dell Jr. download starts now. Check Dirty Moe social channels for additional information or sign up for our email newsletter at DirtyMod Media.com. We'll see you there, May 23rd.