The Dale Jr. Download - 547 - Mark Martin: When Dale Earnhardt Tested Me

Episode Date: June 5, 2024

Dale Earnhardt Jr. welcomes NASCAR Hall of Famer Mark Martin back to the Download to discuss his early days in the sport and how he came to be a chassis setup guru. Mark explains that he and his father, Julian, were both mechanical enthusiasts and began attending drag and short track races in Arkansas before traveling to the Daytona 500 in 1973. Eventually, Julian’s interest wandered to the pit area and he became a part owner of a dirt late model that competed at nearby Batesville Speedway. One night, while scraping mud off the car between events Mark expressed to his father: “How about we build one of these for me next season?” The rest is history.Mark explains that his expertise in chassis setup came from his years competing in asphalt late models with the American Speed Association. After buying a car from legendary Michigan builder Ed Howe and working with his setups, Mark took inspiration from fellow competitors Junior Hanley and Gary Balough on how to take things to the next level. Dale Jr. was especially interested in a setup Mark stumbled upon using no right rear spring, to which Mark gives a detailed explanation of how the discovery came to him while testing at Winchester Speedway. The discussion also covers Mark’s failed first attempt at NASCAR Cup racing, turning down an offer to drive for Harry Ranier, his long relationship with Jack Roush, and his years of competing with Dale Jr. in the NASCAR Xfinity Series. 21+ and present in NC. First online real money wager only. $10 Deposit req. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com/sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 877-718-5543 or visit morethanagame.nc.gov Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey everybody, it's Dale Jr. back again for another episode of the Dale Jr. Download here this Wednesday. We have the Allied guest segment coming to you and Mark Martin's going to be our guest today. I'm excited about this. You've asked for it for years and we wanted to get him in the studio. But since we're not in the studio doing it remotely, we can then have our guests remotely. And we decided now is the time to bring Mark Martin on the Dale Jr. download. So let's get started. The following is a production of Dirtymo Media. Bill Jers.

Back again. I love Jack Roush Bougangles Studio. I love Jack Roush with all my freaking heart. I stayed with Jack Roush 19 years because nobody else

would give me a call. All right. So as I mentioned back in the Bo Jangle Studio and now through June 9th, Make sure you get over to Bojangles to pick up your free sausage boberry biscuit, but you have to order this biscuit on the Bojangles.com website or on the app, and you have to use the promo code Dale Jr., D-A-L-E-J-R,

to get your free new sausage boberry biscuit. It's available at participating stores for a limited time, get them before they're gone. Mark Martin's coming into the studio We're just going to zoom in And I'm excited about that As I told you, we're on vacation a little bit this summer And in and out of the house And at a remote studio here at the beach

And so we can now think, hey, Who have we not had on the show that can't get to us? And so we're having some pretty cool guests Through the summer stretch And Mark Martin was one of those guests that could never come to where we are and be in the studio physically because he's always sort of traveling around

and enjoying his retired life. And we love seeing what he's up to and what he's doing on social media. And there is a ton to talk about. I mean, there is a lot of chapters in this guy's life and we probably will not even get close to getting to all of it. And that's a good reason to have Martin to come back.

But we're going to dive into everything we can as always we want to thank ally for bringing us the guest segment every single week no matter what you're saving for whether it's race tickets, a new car, new home, we're all better off with an ally and they've got us a great one today for the Dale Jr. Download.

All right, so we've got Mark Martin here on the Dale Jr. Download. It's been a long time, Mark, you have been one of the most requested drivers or personalities to come on our show and we just haven't been able to make it work but due to some circumstances, this seems like a great time to get together.

You spend a lot of your time on the other side of the country, traveling all over the place, enjoying your life at 65 years old. Talk about what you've been up to here lately. Gosh, you know, we have spent a lot of time out west in Montana in the summers and Southern California in the winters. or at least three months of that. We really have a good time out there. We've met a lot of people, and you won't believe this,

but we have made best friends with Bentley Warren. He's out there in the park with us, and he is so much fun. But we have a lot of good friends out there. And then now we're starting to get back to Arkansas more, and a lot of things are in the works. You know, you're well aware that Matt's been, working on the Mark Martin archive and we have a lot of uh you know we got the cool retro apparel and

all that stuff but we've got a lot of historical stuff in the works as well uh re you know refurbishing some old race cars um and uh you know a bunch of different things like that so you know we're doing a line we're right in the middle of this book and we were trying to hold off your download until we got the book done and then I'd come in the studio with you. But this book is just taking, it's going to be a couple years yet. We're only in to 1986, but we have covered so much ground. And there's going to be a lot of stuff in the book that there's going to be some stuff in the book that no one's ever heard, including Matt Narlene had never heard.

some of the things, because I kept some of it that close to the chest. But, you know, as you know, there's a lot of things that you can't say when you're a race car driver, manufacturers and sponsors and different things. So there's a lot of stuff like that in there. So we really have a lot of things going on, but just really enjoying being retired and don't, man, I don't have time for a job. I think that's awesome, man. I'm turning, I turn 50 this year and have kind of going back and forth on how I feel about retiring or not driving a race car.

You have, and I love talking to guys like you that were, you know, a notch or two above me and a generation above me about your experiences with, stepping away from driving a race car and you, you know, we'll get into all of the times that you, you know, you debated that or went part-time and came back and, but I know now, like, I'll see it on your social media. Somebody will say, hey, you ought to do this, you ought to do that, and you're 100%. That is absolutely 100% in the rearview mirror for you as far as ever being in another competitive stock car. Yeah, it is.

You know, first of all, I was 54 when I hung up my helmet, so you're not even there yet. And I think what you're doing with the little bit of racing that you do is so good for the sport. You carry so much of the sport on your shoulders and the fans and you do so much. So it's fantastic that you do what you do, and you're very competitive. So, you know, from that standpoint, for me, you know, I was not really ever felt like I was really good at anything. And I was good at racing cars from an early age. And that's what drew me to it. It wasn't the joy of racing cars. unfortunately I didn't let myself enjoy that joy all it was about was being the better than everybody else winning races and you know I started seeing the decline in my

mental processing speeds of course eyesight yeah a lot of those things probably in my mid-40s I started to notice it by the time I was 50 I was aware of it. And, you know, after that 2009 season, when I got to be teammates with you and everyone at Hendrick Motorsports and we had that amazing season, after that I never was able to rise to that level. And I didn't like it. So in other words, I never, you know, experienced the joy. of competing. Or if I did, I would probably still be doing it.

But I didn't. Mine was all about, you know, being good at something. And the one thing that I, you know, I miss a lot of things a little bit. But the one thing I probably miss the most is walking out of the garage area at the end of the day when it's starting to get dark and my car numbers at the top of that list. scoreboard. There's no feeling like that. They don't make a drug that good. You know, I kind of do want to go back to how you started racing. You know, you mentioned that you, you were good at it. When did you recognize? And how did you, what drew you to racing and what made you, you know,

when you first got behind the wheel, how did you recognize that? How did you recognize that? that this is something that you were going to excel at? So my dad was a, and I were both a mechanical and racing enthusiast. So we would, you know, he took me to the drag races down at Memphis and stuff like that when I was a kid. My mom and dad were divorced when I was in early teens. And so in 1973, the summer of 73, not only did, He take me and my buddies to the Daytona 500, which was the first time I ever saw palm trees and everything else. What an exciting time that was.

So, you know, I was in the grandstands for a few years going to Daytona 500, you know, the Daytona 500. But the local dirt tracks, that was our night out, that was our time together. He would take me to the dirt tracks on Friday and Saturday night of the summer of 73. and he got interested in a late model that had a big block in it. And so we would go out and I think he bought interest in it. So he was part owner or kicked in. He knew the guy that owned it and liked him. They were buddies.

And so we would go out and dig, scrape the mud off after every heat rate, every time it come on, you know, the racetrack would come in, we'd scrape the mud off. And we were at Locust Grove. speedway the last night of the season and I remember like it was yesterday I was leaned over scraping that mud off and I turned and I looked up at my dad and I said let's build me one of these things for next year and you know the story will be in the book but that's how it all started we built a 55 Chevy just drug a 55

Chevy out of the weeds sent the motor down to La Nottie and Lanotti Cam's built the, overhauled the motor six-cylinder class, which would be sort of like your streetstock class today. It was an entry-level class. And sent the motor down there, we built, I say we, you know, my dad's truck shop mechanic built the roll cage out of water pipe, so it was heavy as heck. But we didn't know any better.

It was our first time at it. We got the motor back in it, put it in, and went out for the first practice night, and about the fifth lap we kicked a rod out the side of the block. And so we were in a panic, no motor, no nothing. So I'm getting a little off track, but that's kind of how it all started. We went down to Wayne Brooks, who became a local legend, who was the guy to beat, and we borrowed his old standby motor.

You know, it was war out, but he had it around, and we borrowed that motor from him, while he would build us a motor, take a month or so. And we started racing and we ran so good that we didn't give the motor up. We weren't interested in no mood. I mean, we just wanted to keep doing what we were doing. So we ran that motor forever. But, you know, in a couple of months, we beat Wayne. I'm not saying every night.

But once in a while, we'd outrun Wayne. and that was he was he was the man so right then it started to occur that i might be better at that than i was at basketball or football you went into the pavement racing in 77 and immediately found success in the ASA series which in my mind i didn't live that and and it was a bit geographically separated from from the world i know and so stock car racing in North Carolina, but ASA racing, now that I am more educated on those drivers, I mean, that seemed like the toughest group of racers that you could come across. And a lot of those drivers that you competed with there, several would get to the Cup series

eventually along with you. But you found success immediately in the ASA series, and we're going to talk about this. but from 77 to 80 you were a rookie year, you won a championship three years in a row. And on top of all of that, you were becoming this a bit of a guru in terms of how to set the race car up.

And I kind of want to know where did that part of you come from? The person that would think way outside the box on how to get this car to go around the corner. and your knowledge and been able to recall those things even today after all these years is phenomenal. Every once in a while we get an awesome nugget on social media from you about a setup you had in some random race back in those days. But you kicked the ass in ASA and also did it while for the most part setting up your own race cars. And that is probably the more impressive thing for me.

Yeah, 100% said I did all the setups and all the tires because, you know, they were buy supplies and an eighth-inch of stagger made the difference in winning or losing. We ran spools and, you know, an eighth-inch of stagger was a lot. And so you couldn't miss your stagger. And like, you know, in 77 I was getting my feet under me. In 78, my dad was doing. the setups. And, you know, I didn't graduate till summer of 77. So he was doing the setups. In 78, I took over the setups and the tires. We got on a Firestone tire deal in 77, and we started getting lots of tires shipped to the shop, and I would sort through them. And so I put all the tires in the

sets. You got to remember that ASA at that time was unlike anything out there today other than NASCAR Cup. I mean, they were two, three, and 400 lap races. They were pit stop races. I won the championship when I was 19 years old. That was phenomenal. That was a sensation. That was Jeff Gordon, you know, it hit the whole, I mean, it was all over Stock Car

Magazine. Every month I was in Stock Car Magazine because I was so young. that time now that's old yeah you know if you're 13 you're you know it'd be like if you were 13 now but uh so i was getting a lot of recognition and rex robins and all the guys that ran ASA got it they understood marketing and the whole thing they used me to market so i would go in with them they'd carry me around to the tv and radio stations and newspapers and so they trained me that that was perfect training for NASCAR. And so I knew what was going on by the time I got to NASCAR in 81. But to go back to the

setups, yeah, I did them all. In 78, I ran a standard how car with standard howe setup. And all I did was adjust to stagger and adjust the preload on the sway bar. And that was about it. Some race tracks, we had to run stiffer springs. If they were super high bank, we'd have to run stiffer Springs, but it was a standard deal. But I started, you know, I probably had my car up to 56% left side weight in 78. Junior Hanley was starting to get his feet under him as well. I ran across Junior in 77 for the first time, and Junior was, he was on fire. He was a wild man. I mean, He's absolutely nuts. If you look at some of the stuff he built, it's crazy.

Same with Gary Ballou. So these two guys, I had to rise to their level or above. I really needed to rise above because it didn't want anybody to outdo me. So in 79, I ran a Hal car again, but it was lighter, wholesale the frame rails with a half-inch drill. myself, you know, drilling, after it's built, laying under it, grinding, you know, still had a stock steering box, grind all the nubs and everything off the steering boxes, off the transmissions, ran four-speed transmission with no first and second gear in it, so that it would be lighter. So that car was about 57, 57 and a half percent weight. And all this story,

I'm still not a guru. I'm winning races, but I haven't. turned a world like upside down but junior in 79 he comes with this car the 60% left so i'm behind again so so uh ray dillon comes at me because i'd been in dylan's shop for a year running a hal car and he wasn't really building any high-profile race cars he built some locals but mainly he's building trailers and farm equipment. And he came at me, let's build a Dylan Mark 2 chassis because my number was two. And so I said, well, this story's in the book, and we won't go into it. But it was a hell of a night when we made the deal to do it.

And I wound up sick. or sick, but I said, well, we'll do it, but we have to get a jig because he was rough. He built stuff on the floor. It was rough. I said, you have to get a jig, surface plate and jig. We have to build a jig, and we have to use geometry like I'm running now. But it's totally different because we're running a stock front stub, stock steering, and we're going to do coil over shocks and rack and pinion steering and tubular frame and straight rail with the cage, you know, not going all the way over to the other side, the whole deal.

And the cars weren't like that out there. So we built that car and debuted it for 1980. That car, my car, had 62% left sideway. customer cars started coming real soon. As soon as we got out on the racetrack with that thing, we were fast. But we weren't good enough yet. Well, we're super fast. So we sat on poles, run top three, maybe win one.

But I was still running firestones because it was important to get free tires. Everybody else had bailed the good year. And so I needed free tires, dude. I didn't have any money sponsor at all. I did it all off purse. So long story short, it was May when they had the Milwaukee race that I finally had to bail. I went out there in practice and I ran all the practice until it was over. I moved the lead, changed the springs.

I had tore the car all the pieces. It never was good enough. So as soon as practice is over, I told the boys put it up on four stands. I rolled four wheels over to Goodyear. I bought the tires on credit because my dad knew that this might be coming. And before I left Arkansas, he handed me eight $100 bills. They were $100 apiece back then. Yeah.

Well, Thursday night, when I checked in the hotel, Friday morning, I woke up and I looked and the door was cracked open about that much. and I looked up to see if my wallet was still on the counter and it was. So I thought everything's fine. And I went to McDonald's to get my McMuffin and pulled out my wallet and it was empty. Damn. Yeah. So somebody had come in a room, took my money. And so I was broke.

I had zero, not even a penny. And so I bought the tires on credit, went back over and put it all back just like it left the shop. everything exactly the way it left the shop. I'd never been out on Goodyear tires. I've been on Firestone, you know, since 77, put them four stickers on, rolled out there to qualify, and busted the track record.

So anyway, that was a cool story. But now, you know, I'm really ahead of everybody. And, of course, we win the race, and people start buying them. Butch Lindley, David Pearson, Darrell Waltrip, Dick Trickle, Rusty Wallace. All these guys had to buy a Dylan Mark 2 chassis. All our customer, Bob Strait, he, you know, bought one as well.

He ran a full ASA circuit. And the customer cars would usually come out to about 50, 59 or 60% left. And so I was always ahead of them. I gave them my setup, exactly what I ran, was a set-up sheet. And most of a lot of them would pay me $100 cash, you know, and bring the car to Dillans, and I'd set it up for them the first time, you know, because I wanted the money. And I didn't, I wasn't worried about them outrunning me. I was ahead of them.

You know, I was two steps ahead of them already. And so, yeah, trickle. Trickle was a little, I mean, he'd beat me some with him. it, but, you know, we rang good, and we was always ahead of everybody. So by that time, I was really getting my arms wrapped around this chassis stuff big time. And then I started experimenting, you know, into 81, and then comes along that cup car that I built, which is a whole other story. But, yeah, I was, you know, I was just, I want to go back and say Ray Dillon was a big part of me coming to,

to a come of age. You have to realize when he made the deal for me to come up to his shop, I went up there just after I turned 20. I had just turned 20. And I went up there. He gave me the keys to his shop, and that was it. I could go over, you know, my shop was just a garage next. But I had a keys to shop.

I'd go in there at 11 or 12 o'clock at night, and I could use the lathe, or, you know, the mill. I go in his parts room. I'd get bolts, parts, whatever I needed. And for the longest time, I didn't even have to write them down. Finally, he came to me. He says, look, put this paper here. You write down what you take.

He says, if I make the part, you get it free. If I buy the part, you get it for what I pay for it. And so I was 20 years old, man. He's helped me so much. And he forced me, you know, to move into that coal over, rack and pinion, all that stuff. I would have probably done that with Dennis Frings. I went to Frings and asked him for a free house car because, you know, he was rack and pinion. He was chrome molly, you know, and TIG welded and all that stuff.

And, you know, we just used Miles Steel and the wire welder and stuff. It was not nearly as pretty, but it was damn sure functional. and so Dennis turned me down, which was, you know, in retrospect was probably a pretty big mistake because it wasn't that much of an investment. All I wanted was a free car to use. When I finished, I gave it back. So when I finished with it, if I've won all these races, you could sell it for brand new money. You know, I just didn't have the money to buy the cars. So those were my deals I was making in 1980. In 78, 79, Howe gave me a free chassis. But then an 80, Dylan gave me two cars. And then in 81, Dylan gave me two cars and a

bush car. And I got Bud Reeder to pay for building the cup car. So I was doing all that stuff. Had a couple of full timers. David Levin'all, Banjo Grimm were with me. I paid them both $100 a week cash. And they lived in the house with me there by the shop. Banjo came and worked DEI for some for a period of time early on when dad was getting his stuff going over there so I remember banjo great dude um talk about the one of the setups that I'm most fascinated by or one of the things that you learned that I'm it's this idea is what um this idea has been very impactful on me and even now when I race my late model stock car, the idea

of trying to set up a car that didn't have a right rear spring in it, didn't need the right rear spring in it, is a theory, you're basically saying, you're going to strip away all of the

general opinions and ideas around setting up a race car and going to do something completely out of the box that the large majority of people in in motorsport, even at that time, wouldn't even consider putting any effort or time into.

And so it drives me today when we go to the racetrack to tell my guys, like don't sit here and try to keep improving on the tried and true. Always be ready and willing to do something totally unconsidered and unthought of. But how do you, how did you get toward setting the car up that it had so much diagonal percentage in it that it would hold set on the left rear spring and didn't even need the right rear in it? How did that work? So it's a little bit of a story, but I'll tell you

because you know you could make it up like I just dreamed this up laying in bed one night. The standard cross back then cross weight was 58%. That was pretty standard. That was an ed-house setup. That's a lot. That's a lot. and a lot of the southern guys didn't believe in that they wanted their left right to be heavy why did you want to run that much wedge how did you get the car to turn oh well first of all we we bought a how chassis for uh 1977

uh we went up there when we made the deal to order the chassis and uh you know we we got in the car i got up in in one of his chassis and said we need to move the pedals back here, we need to do this, we need to do that on the chassis. And they were like, who's going to drive this car? And my dad said him, and they thought that was a joke. And so, anyway, long story short, their standard setup at that time was 1150, 600, left front, 1150 right front, and a pair of 350 rears, one inch bar with a, you know, I think three, two or three rounds of preload in it.

That was standard. Two inches of rear stagger with a spool. That was just standard. And so I'm sure Bemcoe, Trickle's car probably didn't have any cross in it because the roll center was below the rear end housing. But, you know, it was hard to be to Ed Halcar. I mean, it took Trickle, you know, and Larry Diggins and Joe Shear and a few guys with Femco or Frings cars to get a win here and there against Hal cars.

It was the car to have, and they were 58% cross. It was a lot of stagger. Two inches was a lot of stagger, but it just did turn. If you just did that, that's all I did in 1977 is exactly what he said to do. And I hauled. I mean, I went to New Smyrna. I ain't never been on a half-mile asphalt track, you know. I went to New Smyrna, and I had Hoosier tires the first night.

And they were, you know, I didn't even know tire compounds. So the third night, I got in a wreck in the heat race. So I was out until the fourth night. The first three nights, Jody was a Firestone Tired guy. He blew up motor all three nights and went home. So when we unloaded the fourth night, we missed, you know, all the other nights. Firestone came over and said, hey, you like to try a set of tires? Heck yeah.

So rolled over four scuffs, said 98 on them, car 98, Jody's number. Bolded them on, and I rolled out there, dude, and qualified third at the World Series of asphalt racing. I didn't even know what I was doing, dude. Nothing. We didn't know anything. And so if you just followed him, followed the Ed deal. And then I had a hell of a race at Owasso, Michigan that summer with Bob Seneca. And Herb from Ed House, he was the head guy.

You know, he ran the place. He was in the stands. And of course, Seneca was in a Howl car too. Well, Herb called me a couple days after that in the shop, said, hey, I got a setup. might like. So he gave me a new setup, 1050, 800, and pair of 250s. Still, you know, same wedge and everything. So 58 was the standard cross that anybody who hauled butt really ran. We started increasing the left side weight. And when I got up to 57, I never really noticed anything. But when we rolled out with this Dylan car, it was 62, 62 and a half percent.

and everywhere I went, I broke the track record, no matter what tires I was on. And I always, and I knew that I'd break it next time too, because it was too loose. And I could win race with it, but it was too loose. And I battled too loose all the time. And when I would get home from the racetrack, you know, we had the tire strap around the right rear on the trailer and around the left front. When I'd go under to unstrap the right rear, I would notice that the spring was, be this far away from the adjuster.

The perch, yeah. It'd be that high. And I'm thinking, that ain't right because it's like all wedge until it gets on that spring and then it starts losing some wedge. Hmm. I don't understand that. I didn't put that much wedge in it when I might have put a couple of rounds, but I don't understand it.

So wash the car, go racing again, you know. And after about three times me going under there and seeing that, I figured it out. I burned fuel off. When I burned fuel off, it had so much bite that it would lift away from the spring. Hmm. Still don't register. I go to Winchester to test. I ain't really got this figured out yet. I'm running a 200 left rear and 150 pound right rear on all the flat tracks. I ain't got it figured out. So I go to Winchester, I want to test because I hadn't been there with a co-over car yet. and I go with an 800 in the right front, 700 left front, a 500 left rear and a 200 right rear.

You know, two inches of stagger. Dude, this thing's loose. Loose, loose, loose. I come in, I put some wedge in it, go back out, still loose, close the stagger up, close a stagger up, close a stagger up to a half inch in the rear. Still loose. Now, I get down on my hands and knees and look under it, and dang if that spring ain't that far away from the damn jackbowl. or the screw, you know, the screw on the chalk. So I said, jack it up, take a spring out.

So we jacked it up, took the spring out, and I got in it, and I went out, and I went, you know, a little faster, a little faster. Well, I think everything's okay. Whom, in there, and I'm like, dude, you're an idiot. You got to put a 700 in the left rear. You had 700 pounds of rear spring. You took 200 out. I'd have put 200 in over here.

Yeah. So I did that and I went out and that's the same thing. I don't know, you know. And man, wow. And I was down to like a, I just took it out of there and made no other changes. And I was down to like three eighths or a quarter of a rear stagger with a spool. And so you could adjust it with a stagger and you could adjust it with a stagger and you could adjust it with a preload on the front sway bar.

Other than that, you couldn't change. I didn't know how much wedge you had. Took it home. It only had, put it on the scales. It only had 59% cross because it had so much left side weight and because the spring, if think about this, that shock

and spring on the left rear is inside that wheel. It's in this far. Yeah. And it's on a straight axle. So it's mashing down on the right rear a little bit. Maybe 20 25%

Okay. Plus the the unsprung weight of the rear axles. So it's got like thousand, 225 or something on the left rear

and 380 on the right rear. Left front, I don't know, 7 and a quarter or 700 and right front 680, something like that.

Some rough numbers like that. And so dude, now I can get rid of the whole entire spring in the adjuster on the shock.

Yeah. Some more weight. A lot more weight than grinding on, you know, laying in the floor, grinding on the bottom of the transmission, trying to get some weight off. So, um, so I went there, you know, I had, uh, 31, not Carrera shocks, 3198, right front, 31, 378 right front and 31 77 left front. And a pair of 3197, we ran the long, two inch longer, rear shocks. So I qualified.

before I get to qualify, and Bob Straight brings his car for setup, because we got a new setup. So they hear it, so they bring his. His is only 59 left, so it's got like 61% cross. Because if you take left out of it,

it gains cross. Because the car, the center of the car pushes over on that side a little bit. So on that right side. So I set him up and everything. So it comes qualifying time. track record 16-04 it's either 0403 16-0 and this is 1980 that's 44 years ago and we we roll out there and we run 1574 broke the track record three-tenths and straight rolls out there and runs 1603 so we're on the

front row first and second no shot no spring on the right rear qualified that 97 on the right rear put 96 on it, you know, for a 400 lapper, I thought I might ought to have a little more cushion over there. And taped all four, I had all four sets of my tires, and I wrote them out on, and taped them on the dash, set one, two, three, and four air pressures and tire sizes. So during the race, if I need to change a stagger, I radio in and say, take the left rear out of set three and put it in set two. And, you know, I was the tire guy and the chassis guy all the way through. I know, until 1982.

Even in the Bush series and in the Cup series, I did all the setups and did all the tires.

How long do you run this car without a right rear spring? Do they make a rule against it?

No, they didn't make a rule against it. So I ran it at Winchester and then I didn't even try it

on the flat tracks yet because I was getting it tightened up on the flat tracks. And I was breaking track records and winning races. And I was getting it tightened up. So I was getting there, shedding a little bit of rear weight and putting the bigger sway bar on the front.

And I put a lower rear roll center. And I got that. But, you know, I-70 was high-banked and was going to require more than my, you know, my pair of 500s I was running in the front on the flat tracks. So I did it there. I ran a seven right front, 700, 600, and a 600 in the left rear. And I think we won that rate.

It was 10,000 to win. That race I won. And I went to, you know, you always went to the Payshack afterwards. I went to Payshack late because we'd been out there celebrating and drinking beer and having fun with the fans. And I went to the Payshack. and they handed me a paper sack that had a Sharpie written on a happy birthday. 10,000 cash.

I'm 21 years old. So we're going back to Indiana from I-70, you know, Kansas City. And when we stop at a truck stop to eat, I stay in a truck with my money. Yeah. I use that money the next year. I put it underneath my mattress in my bed in the box springs, actually. Tor a hole in the box springs and hit it in there. And I used that money with my cup stuff in 81 that next year,

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Restrictions apply. See full terms at fendule.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 877-718-5443 or visit more than a game. You talked about Gary of Ballou, mentioned him. I've had Gary on the show, and he's quite a character. The one thing that I love, the story about you guys all coming to run at New Smyrna, and Gary showed up with all the arrow on that car,

and you guys had to run out into town, and buy aluminum and steel and so forth to build your, you know, build your nose and your tail to be able to kind of catch up with what he was doing right there in the, right there in the infield. Talk about that and how, you know, because I look at Gary and he's similar in a way. Like he's, he, with his race cars, nothing was off limits. He was going to, if he could dream it up and he could, make it go out there and function, he was going to do it. I don't think he ever read a rulebook

in his life. But pretty phenomenal character and did what it took to get the job done. So talk about that. Well, he was responsible for a lot of those rules that were in the rule book. Yeah. Gary, it's hard for me to describe, you know, how I feel about Gary, but he's one of my true heroes. He helped me. He and Junior Hanley made me raise my game way more than Trickle ever did. Trickle beat you out of just grit and driving. Those guys beat you with their cars. And that's what I intended to do. You know, when I raced against Wayne Brooks, I beat him with my car when I raced against Larry Phillips I beat him with my car if I race against trickle or Seneca I had to beat him with my car I wasn't going out drive him you know just kid so those guys

Gary was he's fascinating I can't tell you how much I love Gary Ballou his book was so freaking good yeah just absolutely the Gary that I know and I just I cherished my time at the Now, we were, we raced. We weren't best buddies. No, yeah. But we were, he was always up front with me. Like that arrow, that, that, that was 1980. And the first night, you know, I saw what we were up against.

But I didn't have time to do the front and the back. So I went and got conduit, kicked my quarter panel, quarter panels up six inches, and the deck lit up six inches, and built the spolers and all the rudders and everything in. Well, I didn't run that good. that night because the front wasn't done, but I didn't have time. So then the next day, I went and got the stuff and we built the front to keep up. Where did you go? Oh, gosh, I don't know. Home Depot?

Yeah, right? No, no. Bob's space racers. Jack Cook grow for him. And it was Bob's space racers. So I could go there if I needed to weld or whatever. I could use their shop. And so Jack Cook raced the 96 car back then. And so, yeah, so I went, it gets stuff there and made all that stuff.

And then he walks by one night when I'm in qualifying line and he reaches over to the center of my windshield and he pushes it in and out. And then just turns and keeps walking. He was telling me, he's telling me, you got a break, you can't have that, you know. And so I already had been, Arrow, my cars in 79 looked better than everybody else's, but they just weren't crazy. you know and in 78 the same thing and even in 77 a little of the same thing I wanted it to look like in 77 I want my car to look like an I rock car remember it had a chin spoiler on it at that time so I got a fiberglass chin spoiler that I rock runs everybody else was just open underneath the front bumper you know and so I I always was into that but this was

taking it to a whole other level now when I got out there and and got behind Gary, the car actually buffeted and drafted what you would experience at Daytona. You know, there was so much going on. When I got behind him, my car would hump like that, and it would actually freaking pull up. It was crazy. So I learned right then to go over the top, you know. And so Ballou was absolutely incredible. The other one, and I don't know if you could ever do it or not,

but I think Junior Hanley would be an absolute score. Very similar to Gary as far as fascination goes. Gary would be a better entertainer. But Junior Hanley went from, in 77, his car looked like mine, only rougher. And he, and we both came along. But he always was stepping out ahead of me. And then I'd have to step above, to step past him. And then he kept building cars for customers.

And then you start seeing these cars show up in Florida for Ballou and Billy Harvey and all this. You know, and they're just absolutely insane. Then he builds a 70% left side car. I don't even know how you get. I made my attempt at that in 81 and got to 68%. And I took it to New Samirne. and I ran it with no right rear spring. But I didn't run that good in 81,

but I was trying to do the Bush race too. And so, you know, I didn't get overly into it. But I never felt like my 68% car ran better or even as good as my 62% car. And I'm not really sure. Maybe there's a, you know, a spot where you stop getting returns. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. In 19, you talked about getting in the Cup Series in 81, so you had this, you know,

you had this sort of brief run in the Cup series where you brought your own car and made a few attempts. You had some poles and did some pretty cool stuff, finishing third at Richmond in one race. And you turned down an opportunity to drive for Rainier in a 28 car. early on, this early on, they came to you and said, hey, man, we see something, and you turned it down. Yeah, that, that, and there's a lot of things that could have happened, uh, that I didn't. I was so full of my self in the third cup race I, first when I entered a qualified fifth, uh, burned up a gear because they started it under caution and I was freaked out.

I was afraid we were going to, it was wet, and I was afraid we were going to wreck. You know, I never had been, I'd never been around NASCAR racing. And my pit crew had never been to a NASCAR race for crying out loud. They were ASA guys. And so I burned up the gear. And after the race, I'm at the paycheck because you've got to have you money before you head back to Indiana. Jake Elder comes over, he's looking. He looks over in that car.

he looks back at me, he says, you ain't got no, tack? I said, no, you don't need one. I didn't run taxing nothing. You know, I did it by field. I geared it by field. And never, you know, so we ran tax in no cars, water, temperature, and oil pressures. The only thing that was in them. And nothing, you know, and that car was ridiculous.

That car had 60% left side weight. and but anyway so I said you know you don't need one he says how much lead just got and I wasn't prepared for somebody to ask me that it scared me so I you know instantly had to lie but I lied and said 400 pounds instead of 600 and he went God you know that was twice what anybody else had three times in reality but I lied and said 400 pounds instead of 600 and he went God you know that was twice what anybody else had three times in reality but I lied and said it was only twice. And so, Benny said, you don't know who I am, do you? Because I was,

and I said, no. He said, J.C. Elder. Jake Elder. Oh, yeah, I heard him. You know,

I didn't know. I thought I could beat these guys. Well, in the third race, I sat on the pole. And in the fourth race, I run seventh, set on the pole

and run seventh. Set on the pole again. And then in the fifth race, I led 40 laps of the race and run third. I thought I had these guys. I mean, wouldn't you think that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you went and did this five times. And by the way, I'd run a bush, I run an arca car, one arque race at Talladega,

I run third at, I run fourth at Darlington, outside pole, and fourth at Darlington. I run fifth and second at the two Charlotte races in the Bush car. I mean, I got these guys. So we're back in Indiana. I got free motors, free cars, free everything, and no money, sponsor. But free everything. So I got guys that work their guts out, 16 hours a day, seven days a week. I got Dillon.

I got all these people. that have helped, you know, help make this happen. And I'm in a pole barn. That's my shop. Pole barn, 10 walls, no insulation in the roof, just 10. Winters were tough there. And there's pole and a slim line telephone on a pole. And phone rings, and I go over and I answer the phone.

And he said, Mark, this is Wadell Wilson. I was wondering if you'd be interested in driving the 28 car. And I didn't even think. I said, no, Wadale, I think I'd rather do my own deal. That was the end of it. Not Wadale, I got some guys that worked for me. God, they'd have to come.

I got this one car. I'd have to bring that car. And if you would let me do the chassis setups and all that, I'll come and talk to you. But I didn't. That's what you should have done, right? That's what I should have done and see if he would do it. Right, right, right.

Fast forward to Daytona, 28 sets on the pole. I don't care who's driving it. I think I could have done that. Now, I don't know that I could win a race. I mean, Benny Parsons got the ride, and he made it till after Talladega and got fired. I don't know that I could have done a better job than Benny Parsons.

You know that. I don't know. I don't know if they would have had the time or patience for me. I don't know what would happen. But I know that if I'd done that and got fired, I'd be done. Because when I went down there and did my thing and had to come back, I was done. Mark, the days of free cars are over. I did still get free motors from Prototype.

If it wouldn't have been for him, I don't know if I would have ever been able to start racing again. So I did have free motors. and I did have a little connection with Ford, and they gave us parts and 15 grand or something, which was nothing, but it was more than anything else I had, and I was able to restart. Or, hell, I might have gone down there and won the Daytona 500. I don't know, but I'm sure I'd have said on the poll.

And so, yeah, I mean, I didn't even think about it. It wasn't even like a discussion or negotiation. It didn't matter what it paid. You know, none of that. I mean, it was just like no, what else? I think I'd rather do my own deal. I thought I had those guys. I thought by race eight or ten, I'd have a win.

I really, really did. And I thought if I had a win, everything would work out. I had no freaking idea that junior Johnson had seven cars ready to go. And I had one in order to new car. And ran the whole season in 82. with two cars. You know, I mean, I just wasn't, I prepared months in between those five races. And I went, you know, loaded for bear.

As soon as I left Daytona in February, I was done. I was broke, blew up in the race, had to fire my crew chief. And the sponsor never paid up anything. And I was, I was done. All I was doing after that was trying to tread water thinking that I could beat Jeff Bodine for the rookie of the year. And he was driving the Cliff Stewart car, which wasn't a bad car. Not a bad car. And so I couldn't be.

Jeff Bodine, by the way, is a hell of a race car driver. And, you know, so he beat me. I think there are some photos that I remember way back in the day of the hauler accident. And I'm sure that was one in a long line of bad look, right, that seemed to come through 82. You're racing with Bud Reeder. How did that deal fall apart? You just ran out of resources, finances, all of that. So my deal with Bud was he paid for the building of the car, just like Dylan.

You know, he would, and then I took the car and I ran it. I bought the tires. I put the motors in it. I did all the work, did everything. I just didn't have the money to fork over for a car or all the parts and pieces and labor that went into a car. So Bud was the car owner, but that was, it wasn't a traditional car owner. So as I went broke, he still owned that, that car. but it didn't help me any, you know, as going forward.

And so the hits just kept coming. We had, I think, five employees. Prototype was still doing the engines. But, you know, every once in a while, Prototype Ron would call me and says, Mark, you know, I need some money. I never got a bill, but, you know, I need some money. Dude, I call somebody out. I don't even remember what their name was now,

but he was involved in a lot of racing. I hit him up for 15 grand. Sure enough, he gave me 15 grand. I sent it to Ron. I did that, you know. And so then at the end of the year, he hits me up to pay him back. I never thought I was going to have to pay it back.

You know, he hit me to pay it back, which we didn't have a deal, you know, either way. But I didn't expect that. Wreck the hauler on the way to Daytona for the 4th of July. race. We just, we probably ran better early in the season than we did late, except for, you know, we ran good at Riverside, top five, I think, at Riverside, because I ran good at Riverside every time I went out there. And, and we ran good, of course, I run good at, at Dover, but I think we run fifth at Dover. But for the most part, we were racing back there with Jimmy Means and

Roger Hamby and all those guys. And we were just broke and Larry McReynolds had come on board and Larry was very young and, you know, but he was awesome, but, you know, I mean, we didn't, we just, neither one of us had anywhere near enough to be able to compete against Bud Moore

and Junior Johnson and guys like that. I mean, they just I mean, we just didn't have it. We didn't have cars. We didn't have people. We didn't have it. And so at the end of the year I had to have, I owed,

Hutchson Pagan was great. Good Year was great. They gave me a lot of credit. At the end of the year, I probably owed Good Year 50 grand or Hutch, 50 grand and Goodyear, but my So we had an auction because I made up my mind right then and there that I ain't never going to own my stuff again, including selling my toolbox. And we had auction and sold everything and everything that I'd accumulated my entire career.

And I paid off my debts and had a little bit of money left over, put a damn payment on a house in Charlotte. and I thought, you know, I thought I was going, I thought I was, I thought I'd get a ride. But then nobody called, nobody called, nobody called. Where, you know, that year in 82, Tim Richmond had driven the two car. J.D. Stacey had owned it. But Dale Eamman was a crew chief, and they were doing their own motors. And Tim Richmond was a hell. driver. He won two races in that car. So when, so when I got the call, Humpy Wheeler put it together.

He called me, said, hey, JD's going to call you. And he did. So I'm sure he told J.D. He hired me. So J.D. went from five or seven cars. I didn't see all this coming. I didn't have any options anyway. He called, he won't drive a car, come up and see me. He pulled out of all other racing. Of course, Dale Inman had left. I didn't know, didn't care. All I cares I had a ride. Yes. Because it was that or nothing.

I had nothing. And so, went up and saw him. And there again, my upbringing of being a man of your word and being a good man and being very confident in myself at the time. He said, okay. I said, oh, you know, what do you want?

I said, 40%. I said, okay, have your attorney draw up something. I said, I don't need no contract. What would need a contract? I don't need one. I ain't got a lawyer, you know? And so, oh, cool, fine. so man I can go into depth about that we had we ran third at Darlington probably he might

have had a shot to win booby made a bad pick call at Atlanta I knew we were running out of tires I think my dad was there I think he bought a set of tires or two late in a race they put a set of used tires on I fell back once I said don't put no more used tires on this car because I was top five, you know, racing with Cahill Yarborough on them, you know, Richel Petty and them. I mean, the guys, your dad, dude. Well, we come in. I should have said, I'll buy the tires, but I didn't, didn't occur to me. I come in for the last stop.

They put a set of scuffs, used tires on it, and I finish seventh. So then I went, then we went to Martinsville and I tangled with your dad. Not bad. I got six inches inside of his rear bumper going into Turn 1. And I didn't, I was going in there. You know, I had to go. And, of course, he wasn't having none of that and cut down. So it wrecked us.

Not that bad. got straightened around your dad got straight around we got back going but then the motor you know we broke a valve or something and motor gave out and i was doing with the car was on winter circle so i was supposed to do winter circle at taladega the next week i was pretty good friends with bobby alison because he loved me because he short track raced with me you know on the side against me and around me and thought a lot of me and so i was going to fly home with Bobby after the race, and I did in his plane. And I went down, he sent me downstairs, middle of the night, downstairs into the basement. I don't know how many beds there were down there.

I couldn't see nothing. But Davey was probably in there. Clifford probably in there. I don't know. You got up the next morning before daylight, I think, and go out to the shop with Bobby, and I get a call and get fired. Damn. I got fired. I had nothing. Nothing. And nobody... I don't give anything to drive Roger Hamby's car.

I liked them guys. I knew it was a budget deal, but it ran real good for a budget deal. Yeah. I would love to have driven, you know, a car like Roger Hamby's... or Raymock. I was even embarrassed to ask Raymock.

You know, they bounced around from driver to driver. I didn't even ask, but, you know, that could have been something incredible if I'd have got there because they probably would have let me work on the car, do my chassis stuff, and continue to learn. See, I disconnected in 82 through all that. I became disconnected. I wanted to be a higher driver like your dad or like that. Tim Richmond was, you know, that did their deal, had their fun, did their promotion, showed up and drive the car.

You know, that's what all those people wanted. They didn't want a driver to tell them nothing. Drivers didn't know nothing, and they didn't see, that was the whole problem all along. That's why a trickle never went NASCAR racing in the 70s because they wouldn't let him help and they put him in cars that made him look bad. And they all warned me, don't go NASCAR. car racing. They'll ruin your career. They'll put you in junk stuff and won't let you help them. And that was the truth. That's why, that's another reason why I turned Wadale down because I thought

I'll have to drive their cars. They won't be as good of cars as what I can build, which was wrong. You know, but anyway, that whole thing. So, so I lost connection for a couple years there because of that and had to, you know, restart over again. You made a couple starts with D.K. Oldrich, D.K. Ulrich, Zavakas, and you drove Morgan McClure's car a time or two. You have this house in Charlotte. What is the process of you making the decision to go back to ASA? Nobody talked to me. Nobody in the garage. You know, talk to me about.

be driving their car. And Morgan McClure had, they were just in the beginnings. G.C. Spencer was a crew chief. I couldn't stand him and he couldn't stand me because I wanted to tell him and he didn't want nothing, you know, hear nothing. Yeah. Okay. So it's a big problem, the classic problem at that time.

They had two cars. They had a Daytona, Tallahadega car they got from A.J. Foyt, which was nice. Yeah. But it was a four-car, four-race car. And then they had this old Osomobile that was absolutely junk. I'm talking about sheer junk, not near what Roger Hamby was putting on a racetrack. Wow. Yeah.

So at the end of the year, I never called them back and they never called me back. Yeah. You know, they didn't think much of me and I didn't think much of them, which Larry said on your show, I think, that he thought more. of me than that, but G.C. didn't, and I didn't have no interest in driving for that crowd. Had no idea that they could turn into what they did. Sure. You know. It took a while.

Yeah. So maybe I should have stayed, but at that point, it was obvious that there was zero NASCAR opportunity. You know, all the Bush teams were pretty much almost driver owner or driver ran. you know, you weren't going to get Sam Ard's ride with the Ham brothers, you know, Tom, you know, Thomas brothers. Because, you know, all those guys, there was zero opportunity. I had to go back where I came from and start from scratch. The first thing I did is go see Dylan. He says, Mark, the days of free cars are over.

Yeah. Did you sell your Carolina house? Not initially. So I got married in October and I moved. that was I owned a house so I moved Arlene and the four girls down there and but I you know I was new that was probably going to be temporary

and I had dipped my toe in with the rival brothers out of Beaverdam Wisconsin who had a Frings car Dennis Fring's car and they had a program and it was decent I wasn't winning races but was competitive and I ran it a few times in 83, and they said that they would hire me to come do the deal. I said I have to have one employee.

So Doug Hahn, that worked at, he's my age, so he's 23, worked at Der Wagon House in Charlotte, worked on my Porsche that I drove. And he was just a mechanic. And that's all I needed was a mechanic. You know, I knew how to hang the bodies and set the cars up and do all that. I need a mechanic. So I asked him, hit him up. Sure enough, he won't. I hired him a hundred bucks a week, I think it was, and here we go to Wisconsin.

And we re-bodied that Fring's car with a bad-to-the-bone five-star body. And since Dylan wouldn't give me a car, I talked my dad into buying, paying for a, junior Hanley car because I damn sure wasn't going to buy a Dylan car. There's hard feelings there. That was a Dylan Mark 2 chassis. It only existed because I was a huge part of it. He was a huge part of it. And I give him credit all due.

But dude, how are you going to do that? So we bought a Hanley car for ASA. So we had the Art Go wedge body in the ASA car. And I started, you know, I'd been out of it. I didn't run as good as I needed to, but I won a bunch of, I actually won quite a several races with that Frings car. It was really good, and we won one ASA race the first year. Yeah.

Do you, this is stepping backwards a little bit. I remember, gosh, you'll know the, but you came to Dad's Lakehouse to the basement. I remember this has got to be 81 or 82, and I just recently moved into Dad's house. In his basement, he had a pool table and a big couch and a TV with a VCR, or it might be a beta VCR. We had an Atari system down there.

But you, I just remember this was so fun because you came to Dad's house, and you brought a bunch of tapes of your races. And we sat in the basement of Dad's house watching your ASA races from 79 and 80. And I don't know why you were there or how you and Dad had gotten to know each other. But I just remember you showing Dad,

look at all the asses I'm kicking here in this ASA car. Look how badass we're doing. This is a win. This is another race we won. And I'm a kid just watching my dad watch your races, and I don't know why, but I'll never forget that night. What was the whole set up there? So you were seven years old.

Yeah, I was young. And little. You know, to me it seemed like you were five. You were a little dude. But, you know, your dad treated me with great respect in 81 when I started crossing paths with him. you know, with the Bush series and the five cup races. I ran five Bush races, five cup races.

And he treated me very, very, very respectful. It was real warming to me that someone of his stature would give me the time of day. And he was friendly with me and we was talking. And I said, I got a bunch of these tapes, these races. I'd like to show you. He said, bring them up to the late, and we'll watch them. And so it's, you know, it's night time. It was January, 1982.

And, you know, so it gets dark early. So it's pitch black, dark. And I ain't ever been up there. And there ain't no such thing as Google Maps, you know. And it was a freaking out nowhere, or it seemed like it to me. Yeah, back then it was. I was living at the Lake Apartments at the time in Charlotte. And so I found this house.

I don't remember what it looked like because it's dark. And we went downstairs, like you say, and we played those tapes of those races. And we were watching one of them and you came down the stairs. And he turned around, get back up there. to you, Dale. He said, get back up, sir. And so I just, I remember that instant. But we watched all those races.

And then when we finished watching them, he wasn't in the Bush clash for 1982. I think he'd won it in 81, but they didn't put the winner in again like they did later. So I was in the Bush clash. Oh. You know, from my two polls. And so he says, let me show you how to win the Bush Clash.

So he put his in and we liked his race. He was very kind to me in that way. We never had a word about the little bump we had at Martinsville, short track racing. We always were on good terms. And then I have another story about your dad because, you know, some people might portray themselves as, oh, Dale and I were big friends. I think Dale and I were big respect, had big respect for one another.

I wasn't interested in going hunting or fishing. You know, I didn't really hang out with him now. I probably would have drank with him, you know, at that time, or in the early 90s or before. but, you know, we weren't hanging out buddies. Even though we did go out to dinner, you know, a few times, we didn't really super hang out, but we had big respect for one another.

In July of 1990, I'm leading the points, and we're at the Pepsi 400. And I'm leading the points. And your dad's second, no points. And we run, you know, it's the afternoon race or day race. race, maybe starts at 11 about that time or something like that. It wasn't a night race yet. And we run the 400 miles, both of us. And then after that, the IROC race was at Lake Burke, Lakefront, whatever it is in Cleveland, in conjunction with the IndyCar race. And so

Helton and going to use NASCAR plane and fly Dale and myself and Terry Labani and I think it was rusty, yeah, rusty, up there, and do that IROC race. So we go up there, we practice the cars, we run the race, you know, it's a long day. We finally get done running around. I don't know why we were there so late. Maybe we stayed and watched the IndyCar race, I don't know. But I remember we landed back in Charlotte. Well, when we left Cleveland, I realized I had.

had a problem because I didn't live in Charlotte. I lived in Greensboro. And so we landed about midnight in Charlotte. I mean, you know, dude, I don't know what I'm going to do. They'll say, I'll drive you home. Like, I mean, if the rolls would have been reversed, I don't think I would have done that. You know, not at midnight. Because it was, what, two hours to Greensboro?

And then two more hours back home? But he said, oh, I drive you home. You know? And so he drove me home at 2 o'clock in the morning. He dropped me off at my house, and he drove back home. I think Dale wanted to get to know me even better. I think he wanted to probably know who he was going up against. I had emerged.

I had run third in 1989 in the point. won a race but damn near won a bunch of races and I think I think Dale wanted to want to you know know this fella even deeper because he might have to contend with me going forward but it was a I always think about that and think about how special it you know because you know when when you raced out there with him on the racetrack the way I could describe it would be like he had a snarl you know it's like you know but he treated me with respect on the racetrack and especially off the racetrack now we did have a couple of brush-ups you know and i i go into that story every once while as well

but he was testing me when we had those brush-ups it was a test to see what i would do how i would react would I bow down, would I cry and complain? Boy, he didn't like that. Not like the ones that would whine about it. And I'm not going to name no names, but I watched that movie. Plus, that wasn't my nature, but I was never going to do that because he just continued to poke and pride. but he started he started poking me once in I believe it was 93 yeah he just out of the blue he'd start waiting for me in practice on a mile and a

half three miles he'd wait for me he'd wait for me and then he'd get on my outside and hang there while the cars were starting to do that real bad real bad by then they were start and you know he'd do it and I'd just slam on brakes you know, get a half a lap, you know, because I didn't want none of that. Because, you know, we weren't to see who had the biggest gonads at that point didn't mean nothing. You know, it was nothing. Well, he did that about three times, four times, and then we'll go out for practice at

Michigan. There he goes. Up to the top, back, then on my outside. And I don't know how I did. I flew hot. It just made me so, I wanted to be left alone. I'm trying to get my car just like I want it. I can't concentrate on that one.

I got all this stuff going on. And so I flew hot, and somehow or another, I flipped it on him, just like that. I was on his outside. I don't remember how I did it. I got just like that. Before he knew it, I was on his outside. He lost it, wiped it out. You know, I never lost it because I wasn't going to try to man up.

This wasn't the time. for that, you know, and, uh, and boy, I was mad because I had a, you know, we'd build one good car and three mediocre cars. And this one was spectacular. And I was getting, I was going to kill him with that thing. Yeah. And, uh, I'll wipe you out. And I was pissed, you know, and I, he was running for championship and I was so far in points. I wasn't. And it was like, oh, he's got a lot more word to lose than I do. Do that as much as he wants, you know? Yeah.

Did y'all ever talk about it? We never spoke about it. So that wasn't the end of the story. The next week we go to Loudon. Loudon, for crying out loud. And he sees me. Pulls on the outside.

Gets on my, gets on my outside. The next week. I just bam. Dort him. Up into the market. Carbils kept going. I can't say this for sure because I didn't hear it said,

but a very, very, I really believe the person that told Reliable Source said he stepped out of the car and said, I think Mark's had enough. See, he was just doing that. And I wasn't going to say that. You know, I mean, I just, and then back to God. golden again, you know? Yeah.

And, you know, if you look at it, people like to say that one race at Sonoma, that he, you know, bump and run me, he didn't even get to my bumper. I slipped in oil, and that's when, you know, he got by me. I can't recall him ever bump and running me. Now, when I, you know,

he did belt me in the back bumper a few times. Yeah. But he never. turned me, move me in our whole time that we raced ever. And I've watched him race a lot of people, and I've seen him race a lot of people a lot rougher than he ever did me. And so for that, I'm really humbled and proud because I believe that he had a lot of respect for me in that way.

Yeah, I think you're right. You know, I love hearing you talk about my dad because I know the character that you have as a person, and I know that you appreciate Dad, and I think that you know he felt the same way about you. You know, you're a real race fan when you get the die-cast car of your favorite driver. A die-cast is like the official jersey of our sport. It's the ultimate racing collectible that symbolizes a special trackside memory or a milestone moment. of the sport you love. And now thanks to Lionel,

and now thanks to Lionel Racing, the official diecast of NASCAR, it's easier than ever to build your diecast collections. Fans can find Lionel Racing DiCast at official merchandise trailers at the racetrack, at race team shops in person, and online, and a host of official online retailers.

164-scale die-cast collectors can even find cars and haulers at Walmart, Target, and Meyer stores, nationwide. Plus, Linell operates its own stores at Concord Mills Mall in North Carolina and Opry Mills Mall in Nashville, and you can always get your diecast directly from our friends at Linell by visiting linelracing.com. Linell Racing is easy to find on social too. Check them out on Facebook, X, Instagram, and TikTok to see the latest diecast releases. I wanted to pivot just a minute. and talk about Steve Mille.

And you worked with Steve throughout the majority of your career at Roush, and I got the good fortune to have the opportunity to get to know him when he came to work at DEI. And I actually got to race a race at Chicago, where Steve was my crew chief, and I won. And I really appreciated that win for a moment. lot of reasons. We were going through a tough year. But I love the idea that I got to win with that guy considering what you and him had done together. And I just wanted to hear your take on Steve

and what he meant to your career. So not only do I love the fact, you know, that Steve is a brilliant thinker. But I also really did, I appreciated that he paid attention to what was going on around him. See, he was working at the petties when I first saw him. And I wasn't impressing anyone

in that 1982, but he still paid attention to me. And so did Robin. And that made me feel really, really good. But I love, you know, Steve's demeanor. And I love when I was around him, I always felt like he was smarter than me, that he added to me. You know, he added to, when we were together, we were smarter than when I was alone. And that was a really good feeling, too. He

seemed to really believe in me and and so when he started clamoring for me to maybe drive Jack's car because he was hired way before me Steve started telling me months ahead of time Jack don't call you Jack he never called you know no one else ever called either you know I mean that was 1987 I was I was running that Ford Bush car, so it was kind of a Ford guy. I would have loved if Bud Moore would have called me, but he didn't. I don't know. I was ashamed to go ask Bud Moore to drive his car or anybody else because I had shamed of myself.

You know, I had lost. I had failed in 82 and 83, and I was still carrying that around. And Steve Mill made me feel. like I was somebody. And we were running that bush car right over there where their shop was. You know, the Rouse shop was already starting to happen when I was still running that bush car out of Lovindaw's shop there in Randleman. And so finally, Jack did call me.

And, of course, I went up there and met with him. And I never asked him what he was going to pay. I wanted to know if he's going to buy enough time. tires. He had cost me my job once. And if he was going to test enough and whatever, it was supposed to be a limited schedule. But I was happy to have a ride and have an opportunity. And I was really happy to work with Steve and Robin.

But Steve was, so Steve talked to me on the radio because I could understand him better and I was more comfortable with him. I was very comfortable with him and he called the race and he seemed like he called such a smart race you know and he really seemed well beyond his experience but I think it was good for him to be around petties and whatever

Higgins or whatever he'd been around but he really really helped me he let me he was interested in me but we still had some of that dynamic of should i be you know a driver that shows up and drive or should i come in the shop and people get offended because i have things i want or i want things done a certain way or something different or want to show them you know

and i'm not sure that steve would have been ruffled by that i can't say for sure that that Robin wouldn't have, but the guys might. And it does kind of cloud the chain of command a little bit. And I get that. So I didn't immerse myself deep enough in Roush Racing the first few years, not as deep as I should have. Steve did a great job. He was so smart.

He was doing a job and a half, or at least a job in a half. a job and half, maybe more. He was sort of general manager, but Jack micro-managed him. He was sort of crew chief, but Robin was the title of the crew chief and was doing all the car chief chores and handling the boys, you know, the rest of the boys. And Steve was doing logistics like, you know, hotel rooms and who's going to ride in what van and whatnot. So he was doing a lot of different things and Jack helped and he hurt

Jack cost us the fifth race together he cost us that win we should have won Bristol in 1988 and April or whenever it is it was a done deal and Jack wait a minute now

you know come on the radio she just stayed out of it but he came on a radio and question mine and Steve's call it was Steve's call but I knew the call. We knew what to do, which would have gave us the win, but Jack didn't know,

and he cost us that win. And he didn't, he really didn't trust Steve and he didn't trust Robin, and he didn't trust me. And it made it really hard for us. We would have won several more, we would have won some races earlier

if we had, had to be let do what we wanted to do, but Jack was afraid we were taking him or that we were trying to get paid a lot of money and not work real hard. Jack wants you to work your ass off and then give blood and then give blood. And if you do that, good for you and you can have the tools, any tool you want. Any tool you need, you got it. But you've got to work till you bleed. You know, that was Jack then, you know. And so what I'm doing is I'm making excuses for Steve not having even more success than what he had. Yeah.

He wound up after Robin left, he wound up doing the crew chief and general manager and worrying about all this other stuff. And he still had to wrestle. He and Steve both had to wrestle some with Jack's, you know, scrutiny. It would have been better in hindsight if Jack would have been there every day because I think he would have learned over time that we weren't trying to get something, that we're actually just trying to win. Yeah.

But he was so afraid we were trying to, you know, get something. He was so afraid that I would get too big for my britches. He couldn't stand Rusty Wallace because Rusty had a personal service deal with Pontiac. and got 150 grand. He didn't want me to have one. You know, I mean, he couldn't, he didn't want me to get too big for my britches. Rusty gets paid too much money.

You know, I didn't have no deal of Ford, you know, no money deal, you know, or maybe per appearance or something, you know. Then when the McDonald's All-Star thing comes along, it was an incredible honor for me to be chosen to be one of those. Yeah. they wanted the money. Jack.

Jeff Smith and Jack. Jeff Smith was the mouthpiece, but they wanted, or at least wanted 60% of the money, at least, you know, oh, that'll keep us from getting a sponsor.

I was like, it's a freaking honor. I don't make nothing. Man, I know I've told you this, but in 1989, I won six polls, one race, run third in the points and run second about five times.

And my entire paycheck for the year was $225,000. Brett Bodine was getting $250,000 salary plus 50%. You know, that's just an example. I was like, they kept me down. Yeah. Now, it got better. It got better. Yeah.

I always heard that I think that without even asking this question I could be on I can be sure that you are you really enjoyed Jack and all the opportunity that he gave you but I have always had the impression

that we're racing for Jack and racing in that organization was confining and a bit stifling and you did get to go outside of that and see what is going on in other buildings right and and you had success in those areas as well so I mean you know I don't I guess that's got to be a tough thing for you right to balance some of the things that were frustrating with Jack, but also knowing that, hey, you know, none of that, none of this ever happens without having that opportunity with him.

Well, first of all, make no mistake. I love Jack Rausch with all my freaking heart. I almost start crying and saying that. That's how much I love him. But, you know, it was trying especially early on, you know. By the early 2000s, I got paid. good, you know, but I'd been there a long time. And I stayed with Jack Rausch 19 years because nobody else would give me a call.

Nobody. So after I started having success, you know, I got the call twice for the 28 car. I would have liked to have gone, but there's, two things. I'm still a man of my word. They never, they always paid me early on. They paid me low and then they got a little bit better, but they always did five year contracts. And my first contract at the end of the second year, they tore it up and gave me a new contract for more money. No negotiation. They just sent me a new contract and it was more money. It was five years. And then, so, so that That was when Folgers came in.

So they gave me more money because they got more money from, you know, Folgers than we're getting from Shows Light. And then two years later, they tear it up and give me a new contract for more money. I'm happy. I'm going to win race now and then, you know. I'm frustrated as heck now and then. But I love Steve, you know, and I can win some races. And this dude gave me a chance with nobody would.

And so when the 28th thing pops up, I got. three years of my contract, you know. What am I going to do? Leave like a lot of those other guys did? That's bull, man. But now, and then the same thing when it came up again, 28 came up again, I was like, you know, I got a contract, man. I told these guys, and they did that because they did a deal with a sponsor.

and I can't. I just can't consciously do that. Now, that being said, I got so pissed off in 1993 that I decided I wanted to leave. And I hired a shark of a lawyer and sicked on them. What had you say angry? Because I couldn't get the, the body's hung on the cars like I wanted.

I knew how I wanted the cars. I won every damn time I would run out in the 60 car because I got to choose everything on the 60 car. Yeah. Everything. Who did the body? How the body was done. Rouse didn't do the body.

We had to source it out, but still, I got the, you know, chassis that I want. I got the body on. And I couldn't get what I wanted and I'd had it. I was tired of it. I was racing against cars. I can see cars, Ford's, you know. And I just, I couldn't take it anymore.

And so we wrestled them to the floor. Over a series of a bunch of months, finally, finally, they came and said, okay, if that's what you want to do. Now, you know, the only thing I had on the radar screen was Junior Johnson. It's 93.

You know, there again, you've got to be scared about jumping ship. You know, it didn't last long after that. And so, you know, I, so when they finally gave me the relief, because I'd never seen, I'd always been at least three years left on my contract, when I finally saw relief, it was up to me. And Steve comes right to me. because Steve Mill is so good. Mark, if you'll stay, I'll get you some more money.

I ain't even ask for no more money. You know? And I said, okay, you want me to stay? I'll stay. They gave me 50 grand or something, you know. It threw me a bone. I didn't need it, you know. I wanted to stay.

I wanted to have the choice because I'd never had the choice. And I had the choice to leave, and I didn't have, you know, an option. The 28 wasn't open right then, and I didn't have anything, you know, that looked like would be a better situation what I had. I love Steve Meal.

And by the way, Jack had started really coming around. That gained, he gained respect for me through that for standing up for myself. And we became closer and closer as the years went on and then by 2000 I mean I'm going to tell you

the truth when Matt Kinsis won that championship I could tell that Jack was somewhat embarrassed that I hadn't I could tell that it bothered him that it wasn't me first

I mean that's how much I believe Jack Roush loved me by then and it only continued to grow from there you know and so i mean yeah it just took a long it was a long time in the works to get there and and you know we won some races because of jack well we went a lot of races because jack you know we got such horrible fuel mileage for so long and then finally he went to work on fuel mileage and we actually won a race on fuel mileage and we actually won a race on fuel knowledge. Kyle Petty had us beat like a drum at Dover

and Kyle had to stop for fuel and we didn't. He didn't tell me or us anything about how to road race. He asked all the right questions because he was smart enough by then to not try to tell us

something. We were at Syr's Sonoma and down in that last 11 or whatever is that last you know horseshoe down there. He says you get beat down there. I said, I can't help it. He said, what happened if you break harder? All right. Why? I don't know. I just know I won't make it. So I'll go out the next time and I find out, you know, what it is. You know, it's too much rear break, but I didn't know it. You know,

so he was real good about at the road courses asking the right questions of me. and making me think. And he made a better road racer out of me in that way. Whereas if he had told me what to do, I'm not sure it would have been taken quite as well. So he had really gotten smart. He just didn't know much about Oval Track Racing when he started and he was an absentee owner.

But he was a gearhead and a mechanic guy. So it was a difficult transition for him because he couldn't be there. through the nuts and bolts of it, like it would have helped if he could have been, I think. Yeah. So you mentioned the Wind Dixie car. I wanted to kind of get to where we're wrapping up our interview with some conversations about me and you racing together.

You've always been great at tutoring, mentoring, being available and approachable for drivers, young drivers, when you were racing, especially we had a lot of opportunity to do that when you ran in the Xfinity Series and the Wind Dixie car, and you were dominant. Anytime that car came to the racetrack, everybody was trying to, that was the car to beat, no question. And as I got into the Xfinity series in 98, 99, there was two emotions that you had when we'd go to a race track and you unloaded. You got sad because you knew you were going to have a hard time keeping up with that car,

but you also got excited because you knew if you had a car capable of competing with you, you were going to learn a ton. And I learned a lot racing with you in the Xfinity series, and I want to share a couple things that always that impacted me. So we go to Charlotte Murder Speedway. It's 9 o'clock in the morning. Early practice, the cup cars hadn't been on the racetrack yet. Everybody that pulls out on the racetrack is going to, about lap three or four,

we're going to kind of start to get to push in it. You don't want to bust your ass, you're a rookie, you don't want to go out there and wreck your first lap on the track and be an idiot. And I remember being, we pulled up. out on the racetrack and we come off a turn two down the back straightaway and I I kind of keep up with you three three and four enough to still be able to see you and we head down the front straightaway and we go into term one and a driver's reaction on the entry to the first turn of any lap at any racetrack is to probably shallow it up just

a little bit before you go in there and load that right rear and see how much you have and again, you know, trying not to bust your ass and get yourself in trouble with your team or your dad or anybody. And you drove way out, big arc all throttle down into the bottom of term one. And I thought, man, I don't know if I'll ever have that much confidence. And, you know, I was just amazed at. at your, you trusted that car's enough to drive it off into term one, full commitment, full arc in the dust in that morning at 9 o'clock. And there were just moments like that where I was always reminded, I guess,

by how incredible you were, but also how lucky I was to be sharing the racetrack with you. We didn't get to race against a lot of the cup guys regularly. And so like when a Terry LeBonty or somebody might do a one-off, you'd just sit on pit road looking at their car going, Terry Labani's in that fucking car. It's crazy. And we got to race with you a lot. And it was such a, you know, such a blessing and a treasure.

And there were a couple times where I got to run door to door with you. And I don't know what kind of race car driver I would have turned up. into or become had I not gotten to be able to do that. I gained a ton of confidence in myself that I could get into the Cup series and compete because I could race with you in the Xfinity series and do well at times. So just want to talk about that a little bit

and maybe share some cool stories about some of the younger guys you got to race with that eventually got into the Cup series and how much your experience in that when Dixie car meant to you, it was a big part of your career. Well, you know, to answer that last little bit first, because it's pretty important, if it hadn't been for that 60 car,

I don't know that I would have lasted at rashes. because early on, you know, we weren't having the best of years, you know, in 91, even 92 or even the first half of 93. And I'm not positive that I wouldn't have got canned for somebody else because the results weren't there strong enough. But yet if you let me have total control of a car, I would go do what I did in the, you know, Bush series or Xfinity series. And so after a while, I heard Steve Meals say, dude, you got to let him, we got to let him do whatever he says, you know. And so for a long time, our call on Tuesday with Steve and I, we would make notes for the last race, for the race we just ran. He'd make those notes.

We'd discuss it, make those notes. Then he'd pull the notes out from the last time we were at the track we're going to. And tell what the setup was and what my comments were. Because I'd always say, next time, try the Panar bar up an inch. Next time, try a little bit more bar. I would usually have a suggestion for the next time. And so we would discuss those things, and then I'd tell Steve what I wanted to put in the car. Springs, shocks, weights.

And so in those early 90s, after a while, I was able to do that, and we were able to run some better, and I got to have more say in the bodies. like it made the whole shop really mad at me in 93. I think they called it Dark Tuesday when we came in there and Jack told them that they would do more for me if I was in a two-bay garage down the way than they were doing. And that's hard to hear, but it ain't a lie

Because some of those guys that worked there came by DL shop and worked at night and helped us because we just had two cars. This 60 car, the Windexi car, had like a decade long sort of span of dominance. It was unlike a lot of things I've seen in the, at least in the Xfinity series. Yeah. Well, you talked about young drivers that came along. One, I can think of as you. you came along you want to follow me that's fine follow me if you can you know and it was not very long till you you beat me and no I didn't like it but I didn't regret showing you how

it was done yeah I didn't regret that at all I needed to make my car better you know because you're going to be a formidable you know uh challenger so that's That's how I looked at it. That's also how I looked at it in an ASA. I set those guys' cars up just like mine. They didn't have as much left side weight because of mine were lighter because I work harder. But, you know, you're the one that comes to mind. I don't know anyone else that really came through the Xfinity. Oh, Tony Stewart. So Tony did that. He comes along and we go to Rockingham. I mean, I got. I got a boatload of winds at Rockingham and Darlington both. Quite a few at Charlotte as well. But, you know, the place where tires give up. Yeah. You know, not only do you have to manage your tires with how you drive the car and a little bit with your setup.

But, you know, you also, you have to be smart with how, you know, how you apply it. When you go, when you don't go. Tony, I'm wide open, buddy. You know, he's in that 20 car, boom, blows my doors off. About 25 laps later, you know, he's going to the back. And caution comes out, we put four tires on, I come out in the lead, restart, boom, you know.

And so, he still talks about it today, you know, that, and of course I won the race because it wasn't a three-lap sprint, you know. But, you know, Tony was, Tony was cool because he, he talked a lot about that. I didn't really run with Denny Hamill. I think Hamlin came straight to Cup. Denny and I had a brush up early on in Cup. He ran too good to be that new.

You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying. I ran too good. And, you know, he's hanging on my right rear at a mile and a half somewhere. And after, you know, two or three laps, I rubbed him off, you know. That's ridiculous. You know, it was a quarter of the way through the race. Don't hang on my right rear.

That's what you do after the last pit stop. Yeah. You know, you do it then. But you don't. I mean, because those races back then, you managed them. I mean, I spent, I race for points, you know, and the points only paid where you finished. So if somebody wanted to go early, go the heck on. Mike Eddy and ASA in the late 70s, he was, man, he would go, woo, by me, and out of sight.

Then he'd start coming back into sight, front wheels would be like that. They're not the tow out. He didn't get a chance to hit me. When I saw him coming, I whipped out of the way. You know, I didn't give him a chance. He didn't have an opportunity. But he'd hit somebody and he'd be coming back, you know. And that's not how you make a living.

That's not how you win a championship. That's not how you pay the bill. That's not how you do none of it. It's where you fit. So I would spend my whole race preparing to be fierce after the last pit stop. and I would race as hard as anybody after that. But, you know, I got a lot of criticism for not putting on a great show early. Well, my background forced me to be like that and racing with guys like trickle and all that.

I raced with Pat Schauer and he lost his young life in ASA. It was horrible. I got to race with a lot of great guys. I raced with Rick Knott's that lost his life at Daytona because he was chasing his dream. You know, he raced the late model in Michigan and I raced against him and chasing his dream and went down there and lost his life. And, you know, there was a number of Larry Dejans, which he probably would have never gone NASCAR racing either. Because all those guys up there knew trickle, Deachins, Raffner, all those guys knew that it would be poisoned to try to go NASCAR racing. and drive somebody's car and not be able to help them make it better.

And that's the culture of the 70s back then. Well, man, I'd love to keep going. We got so much on my little sheet here, my notes that we didn't get to get into, and I'd love to get you to come back on so we could talk about. There's a lot of things about post-rouse years with DEI, and you won a race for junior motorsports, which was a very proud moment for me as well, and racing with you as a teammate at Hendrick.

We could definitely do another podcast if you'd be interested in coming back joining us one day. It's so much fun, Junior, I'd be glad to. And definitely want to come on and discuss the book when we get it done. When you've got the book ready, come back and see us. Yeah, I think it's probably two years out. It'd be great if it was a year out, but we're only up to 1987. I don't know, 87 or something.

We've covered a lot of ground so far, got a lot to go. I got to ask you, your motor coaches, if you've got one hobby in your life, it seems like you take a ton of pride in taking care of your bus. You spend a ton of time traveling around the country enjoying that. And it's always something I enjoy seeing when you're on social media showing us what you're up to. But, you know, is the bus the full-time hobby? is what else is Mark Martin doing to have fun these days? I like to go by the shop just about every day and at least walk by it. And I like to take it out once in a while and get it dirty.

So I have to clean it up and have some work or maintenance to do. But there's this word, ruminate. And I need to ruminate. And ruminating on how to make a cargo faster was what, you know, did it for me for 40 years. And I don't have that anymore. And I don't really have, if there was a late model shop around here, I might go hang out at the late model shop every day or something, but I don't have that. This is something, this motor coach is something mechanical that I can put my hands on and make it better or fix it. I change my own oil. It's ridiculous, but I do it

because what am I going to do, sit on the couch and look at my phone. I like cleaning our vehicles and stuff like that because when I finish, I can step back and it pleases me that looks better. So that's about what I do. I travel around, see the country, and when I stay home for long periods of time, I just go in the shop and piddle on something. Yeah. Well, man, I love to see it. Keep sharing with us what you're up to on your social media. I know Matt's doing a good job also putting a lot of great information out there.

Matt Martin has been working on the Mark Martin archives where you can follow on social media and learn all kinds of great things about not only Mark's history but everything you guys got going on with the book and I know I see your shirt I know you're a big supporter of the I Rock series and it coming back and we're seeing you still come out to the racetracks

and take in a cup race every now and then and supporting everything NASCAR has going on so just want to say thank you you've been such a great friend to me. You talk about how dad was really respectful early on. You've always been just incredible to me. I want to thank you for that. I appreciate you being a mentor early in my career

and also a great teammate when I got to work with you at Ricks. And even today, still every once in a while, get to chat with your text with you. And I always appreciate those moments. So thank you for giving us some time today. And we wish you well, buddy. Thank you, man. It's been fun being on, and I can't wait to do the next one.

All right. We'll see you soon. Okay, bud. That was a great conversation with Mark. I'm sitting here looking at my notes. This is a tough thing for me. And as we're closing in on, I'm looking at the time. We've been talking for an hour, hour and 45 minutes.

And I'm looking at the time. and I'm thinking, yep, we've got to wrap this up or start thinking about wrapping this up. But I also look at my sheet and I know that we haven't even gotten to half of the things that I would love to talk to Mark Martin about. And so I start thinking about our listeners and how much disappointment there might be

for things maybe they're waiting for as the interview is going. And I see these comments in our social media from time to time, man, they really were hoping we would say or talk about X, Y, and Z, and we don't. And so I don't know, you know, that's always kind of the tough part about these interviews. It happens just about every single one. We don't really get to everything.

But Mark's career is so robust and there's so much there that it's impossible to imagine getting it into an hour and a half long podcast. But we'll try to get him to come back and we'll keep those notes and have another episode with Mark involved because there was a lot more that I'd love to talk to him about. It was everything that I thought it would be. He's great, great storyteller, great memory, opinionated, emotional, passionate. So you don't have to worry or wonder about how he feels about a certain topic. And you can kind of hear it and see it in his voice.

So I really enjoyed it. And looking forward to this book that they're putting together. and there are a lot of things that I know personally about Mark that aren't public that he's been you know he's he's a bit reserved to discuss about and I'm sure the book will be an opportunity for him to really just kind of shed some you know some truth on certain chapters in his life so I'm excited about that and then maybe in that second episode with Mark, we can do it when the book is out and we can discuss some of those more personal details about his career

and some of the challenges that he dealt with. But anyhow, just want to thank Ally for bringing us the grass segment every single week. They do a great job supporting us here at DirtyMo Media at the Dell Jr. download. Thank you for bringing us Mark Martin this week, Ally. No matter what you're saving for, whether you're saving for race tickets, maybe a new house, whatever it may be, we're all better off with an ally. And we appreciate everything they do for us.

Let's get to the white flag. The tear down with Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi came out Sunday night where they discussed everything that happened at the race this weekend. And action is detrimental with Denny Hamlin and door bumper clear dropped on Monday. Our dirty air show dropped yesterday where we discussed what we feel some of the more important things going on in the sport and then Speed Street with Connor Daley and Chase Holden drops today. DJD Relo with Steve LaTart and Tampa Tims is out tomorrow and don't forget about the Denny Hamlin Bracket Challenge as they head to Sonoma for round two. Go check all that out

at dirtymobedia.com slash bracket challenge. It's been a great show. Been a great week here. Week two from the remote studio. We're enjoying it here and we'll see you next week. Check out Dirtymoe Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.