The Dale Jr. Download - 549 - Mario Andretti: Addicted To Adrenaline

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Dale Earnhardt Jr. sits down for an incredible conversation with motorsports icon Mario Andretti. With a resume that includes wins in the Indy 500 and the Daytona 500, four IndyCar championships, and a Formula One championship, Mario is in rarified air in motorsports history, ranking among the best to ever sit behind the wheel. Mario reflects on his childhood in Italy and how his family migrated from a refugee camp to Nazareth, Pennsylvania when he was 15 years old. It was there that his twin brother Aldo and he discovered the nearby Nazareth Speedway and set out with the ambition to build a racecar to enter the local sportsman division. At the advice of his friends, the Andretti brother team settled on a 1948 Hudson Hornet for their initial foray into racing, thanks to the classic car’s success on the dirt in early NASCAR competition. With a fabricated story of racing in the Formula Junior ranks in Italy and doctored driver's licenses in their pockets, the Andretti's set out with a full head of steam and found immediate success, helping to launch one of the greatest stories in auto racing. Mario explains that his decision to leave stock cars and venture into open wheel racing came through the ¾ midget ranks of the East Coast, and his time in the division helped land him USAC sprint and championship car rides. After getting his feet wet in the big cars in 1964, Mario had a tremendous rookie season, placing 3rd at the Indianapolis 500 and winning the national championship. Mario and Dale also chat about his journey into the NASCAR world, which resulted in a 1967 Daytona 500 victory with the Holman-Moody team. Mario admits that some on the team were pulling for his teammate Fred Lorenzen, but with the help of the legendary engine builder Waddell Wilson he was able to overcome adversity for his lone NASCAR win. The conversation also covers Mario’s track record at the Indy 500, pursuing his childhood love of Formula One racing and how he came to win the 1978 World Championship and returning to the US to finish his career in the CART ranks, racing alongside his son Michael. Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, it's Dale Jr. Here again for the Dale Jr. download. A great guest segment coming to you today. We got Mario Andredi coming on the show. I have never had Mario as a guest. I'm excited. Can't wait to talk to him. Let's get started.

The following is a production of Dirty Mo Media. Dale Jr. Dale Jr., Dale Jr. Back again. Hey, everybody. It's Dale Jr. Boog James Studio. Mario and Jr.

ready on the delginer download. You learned that you were allergic to retirement. I started having reading issues, you know. I think you lived your entire life on adrenaline, and your body thinks you're dead. All right, in the Bojangles studio, well, I'm not in the studio again. I will be next week, but everyone back home running the behind the curtains part of this is in the Bojangle studio for the Del Jr. Download, and this is our ally guest segment. we're going to have an ally, a true ally, on the show, Mario Andretti.

Mario Andretti, oddly, me and him have kind of become friends. I guess we could call each other friends. Wouldn't throw that around too loosely with an icon like Mario Andretti. But he did give me some laps in a two-seater around Indianapolis, so I feared for my life. But I thought, you know, if there's one way to go, riding with Mario Andretti would be a hell of a way to do it. and he also came to one of the most important events in my life, and I'll talk about that later in the show, but I'm excited for this,

and I also want to thank Marco Andretti for, you know, becoming, me and Marco have kind of become pals over the last 10 years, and I think it's because of Marco that I'm that excited about this interview, and I feel so good and comfortable about doing it. otherwise I think it would be very intimidated to be about to interview Mario And Dredi. But I want to thank Ally for sponsoring this episode or the guest segment of the Dale Jr. Download. Ally is such a great partner for myself and everything we do with creating, you know, paint schemes for Alex Bowman or anything else we have going on with DirtyMoh Media. ally's been a great partner for us and a great ally as well.

So they're bringing allies to our show every single week, and this is absolutely the same. Mario Andredi is definitely an ally. So no matter what you're saving for, whether it's race, tickets, a car, a new home, we're all better off with an ally. It's time to get Mario Andredi on the show. All right, so we got Mario Andredi on the Dale Jr. Download, man, this is, I got to tell you, man, this is something I've been looking forward to for a long time. I was hoping to get you in the studio because just being around, you is awesome with everything you've accomplished. But I'm thankful that you're going to give us some time today, Mario. I want to know, like, man, where are you at right now?

I'm in my office. At home? Yes. Where's home? Home is in Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Yep. And my noisy neighbor is Marco. I know. I've been over to Marco's house, and he's showed me how close you guys live to each other. I've got to imagine that it's pretty cool to have him pop in unannounced every once in a while. Oh, you bet. Yeah, yeah. We're together quite a bit when we're at home, of course. That's a good thing.

Yeah. What are you spending your time doing these days? What keeps you busy? Well, you know, I'm on the road a lot, obviously, as you could expect. I mean, that's what do we do? Everything is connected with the sport in one way or another. obviously with Michael being involved in all of those different disciplines, it gives me reason to choose now and then a little bit, but I'm a little bit here, a little bit there.

You know, this past weekend I was in Montreal. I should have been at Elkhart Lake and all that. And then I was watching Sonoma, watching my boy win that race. You know, so I'm trying to take it all in. on the road and of course whatever I can on TV. But, you know, the sport is, you know, what we live for. And I want to stay, you know, informed, if you will, you know, of everything that's going on at the top level. So, yeah, life is busy and I like it that way.

Yeah. I was, I think the last thing you said was life is busy and I like to keep it that way. I talk to a lot of drivers who I always find the retirement from full-time driving. I always find that a really fascinating thing, fascinating thing to talk about. And you'll see some drivers like yourself, Richard Petty, that will, you know, remain involved in the sport in lots of ways. But then there's other drivers that completely disappear. And I always kind of find that fascinating. You're one of those that, you know, due to your son's involvement in the race team and Marco's competing,

there's obvious reasons for you to continue to be around the sport. But you also, you know, you also have your own projects going on and your own relationships and partnerships and partnerships to nurture. And so what, is there ever a time where you think you would completely step away and enjoy? just doing nothing? Absolutely not. You know what? I always said that I had a tough time really deciding when to get out, come out of the cockpit. As you know, I was due to do that.

I mean, my last race, I was 60 years old, the 24 hours of Lamont, as far as a professional event. And again, I just loved my driving so much. I don't know anybody that could have enjoyed that and loved it more than I did, maybe as much, but not more. Yeah. And I always was concerned about what would life be without, you know, out of the cockpit after being in it for so many years. But the fact that the family continue, you know, on both sides with my twin brother Aldo

and myself, you know, we still, we're third generation drivers still out there. And then, you know, with Michael being involved, as I said, on, you know, in every aspect of our sport, that gives me reason to find a home no matter where I go. And pretty soon it's going to be a home even in a cup, you know. And I hope I'm still alive for that. You know, so, and that's a good thing. But I always said, you know, when I'm going to go until they put me in the box. and put them in the box, it better have wheels on and the stair wheel.

You mentioned your brother Aldo. I wanted to talk, I guess it's a good transition to early life. You know, you had a very challenging childhood, a lot of moving around, and eventually you at one point ended up in a refugee camp in Italy. What part of that do you remember, if any of it, as a child? Oh, I vividly remember all of it, obviously, no question, because so many events were happening and so much of it seems to be negative, which everything pretty much turned into positives.

I mean, just for us, my dad deciding to come to America and, you know, not knowing what to be looking forward to or what it was going to be in a new world. not to be everything for us. I said this million of times when everything shakes out, you know, our family were the perfect example of the American dream. Two days after arriving here in

Nazareth, you know, I was in June, June 15, 1955. The stock cart season was in full swing, and that's when I found out that it was a track here, you know, a racing.

And two years later, my brother and I were a couple of other buddies, you know, we started building a car. And where do we go? We had, you know, always got to have the geek around, you know, somebody knows everything. Because we didn't. And he suggested that at that time, it seemed like the Hudson's were pretty lively, pretty, very competitive on the dirt tracks in NASCAR. And so we decided to go in that direction. And so we bought some information about that. And we built a 48 Hudson Hornet, you know, to race locally.

And we started racing three years later. At age 19, my career basically in Alders began at age 19. And mine, you know, I never, you know, missed a beat. I only missed two races because of injury until it was 60. So you could see things went, you know, better than we could have ever dreamed of. And all of my most ambitious dreams were, you know, pretty much accomplished. And that's a blessing in itself. Obviously, I take nothing for granted.

I was very fortunate in my career. as you can see, going through the decades where things were certainly not as safe as they are today, somehow I missed many bullets, you know. Aldo didn't, you know, and unfortunately, so that's what brings reality to it. And my younger son, Jeff, didn't either, you know. So we know, Michael and I know how lucky we've been. And again, you know, just I could have ever, ever hoped for anything better for my career. matter what. So when y'all, before y'all built the Hudson, though, you know, you were living around

Nazareth Speedway, y'all had bought driver's suits in Italy, and you all had, you had told these folks at the racetrack in Nazareth that y'all had competed in Formula Junior back in Italy. I mean, what, before the Hudson, what had you raced at all? Zero. Oh, my God. On the streets with a 57 shabby. No, you know, it was interesting to you bringing this up. At age 19 in those days, Junior, you had to be 21 to race professionally because of insurance or whatever.

And so we were going to, we thought when we started building the car that we had four years of time. The car was ready in two years, and we figured we're not going to wait. So what do we do? We got to dream up something. And we befriended the local editor of the local newspaper here, less young. And I said, you've got to do something with our driver's license on a birthday. And then, as you said, we bought Aldo and I just went out. We bought two racing suits from Salisport in Italy, you know, as I always said, with the zippers

and everything. Mine was white, his was blue. And so we looked professional. Then we came up with a story that we used to race Formula Junior in Italy, which actually was a reality. But of course, there was a pipe dream in itself. And the interesting part about it, that we were winning some races, so all this story goes out, and the auto sprint in Italy picked up that we came to America and then after racing Formula Junior in Encona, like I said. And then my relatives back home and says, oh, why didn't you tell us you were racing when you were still back here? You know, and this story went on and on because of Chris Apocke picked it up.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, even up until recently, that story was still alive. We started racing the Formula Junior, but somehow we looked apart, you know, and we went through it. The only problem is, Dale, that when I turned 21, finally, I didn't want to be 23. Yeah. I had to start saying, oh, well, you know, I had to come up. Well, we, you know, we just, there was a bit of a bit of a fib there, you know, so anyway, that's how we got to. going here at age 19.

So it's pretty fascinating. I did not know that basically your very early beginnings in motor sport as a driver were in a stock car. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like a very, you know, like a similar. Sportsman. We run sportsmen, yeah, yeah. And we want actually, you know what, we want, although, you know, we have one car,

like I said, one car, one helmet and two drivers. and we used to alternate. Aldo won the toss for the first race. He won the heat and the feature. And I can't believe. I mean, that car was just what we needed because the idea was Charlie Mitch was the guy that actually directed us

and put us in that direction. He knew a little bit about what was going on. And he said that New Yorker trying to build something like they're doing locally here, you know, cut down, you know, 32 Chevy or, you know, whatever, and rail jobs, and it says, you know, the reason that we found now later that some, you know, these Hudson's were really very, very good, especially in a racetrack, where we put a lot of crossway because of the rigidity, there was the only car at that time with a unibody construction,

so the torsional rigidity really made it. could lay out, you know, on a nice drift on the outside, and the car would just hold nicely, and that worked for us. So, yeah, yeah, I, the first two years, you know, 59 at 60, it was all, you know, the stock cars for me. Then I got into midgets and all that. How did you get to midgets? I mean, the midgets would take you to open wheel racing eventually in the mid-60s, but how did that opportunity to race in the mid-s? happened. Well, I was, actually, I was dating my future wife, and I talked to her father into buying a TQ, a three-quarter midget. And he bought it from Jack Harvey from the president of the organization. It was the famous deuce that Bobby Marshman had driven.

So it was a competitive car. And I'll tell you the deal I may. I made a deal with him. that I'll split, I give him 50% of all the money that I earned, racing. And then when we sell the car, it gets 100% of it back. So I made a deal that he couldn't refuse. It was pretty tough for me, though, to keep it going. But it was the best thing I could have done because they were, they had really a good series in those days. They were running like three different tracks during the winter.

and Hempstandong Island, two major, Hemstandong Island, TNack, New Jersey. And all the top midget drivers from the ARDC were running there. You know, so, and some of the scouts, you know, some of the other teams

they were looking maybe for a young driver. That was a good place to go. And that's how I got my ride in, with the Mataka brothers, and a full midget after that. But even there, you know, we won some races. actually I won the biggest race of the season, which was a hundred lapper at Teaneck with Glenn Duncan,

you know, one of the top guys, you know, in Midges at the time, if ever, finished his second to me, which was awesome. So as you could see, it was just a matter, like, you know, you go to school, you go first grade, second grade, and they try to promote yourself and never stay there, you know, like you start winning, go to the next level, go to the next level, and that's what you're going. really work for me. I got into a E. EDC. Magist's room there.

Got into sprint cars and you set sprints here. Luckily, then from sprints, you know, to champ cars. So it was step by step. But, you know, as soon as I felt that I was, you know, winning by luck or whatever, then you don't stay. You can make a

career in any of those divisions, obviously. You know, but as soon as you think you can, you know, make some noise there, you've got to try to move on and go to the next level because no matter where you are at which level you're in you're working just as hard yeah you're um you know in 19 in i guess in 65 you had a breakout year in open wheel 25 years old um i mean still relatively young in terms of your racing career

um you go to indy and race uh into 500 uh is while all of this is happening to you it's such a rapid rate. It feels rapid. It feels very, you know, like a William Byron rising through the ranks. I can't imagine you now, after everything you've accomplished, being lacking confidence or not being able to go out there and feel like you can win. But at a young, you know, Dale Earnhardt was a rookie at one point. Dale Earnhardt was learning from the veterans and mistake prone at one point in his career. At a young age, Mario Andretti at 25 years old, going through all of these processes and having so much success, did it come easy? Was your confidence level through the roof? Were there moments when you stumbled and had questioned what your choices were and what you

were doing? Well, a little bit of all of it. You know, the fact is, when I look back, I always say certain moments. What if this wouldn't have happened? What if that would have happened? And quite honestly, you know, I was able to take advantage. Unfortunately, you felt like a vulture through the bad luck of somebody. In those days, there were a lot of injuries, you know. And that's how I benefited as I went on from ride to ride when somebody got hurt.

All of a sudden, they're looking, okay, I was there. man, ready to go. And then I had to show something, you know. So that was obviously the challenge that you're always looking. You always have. But, you know, when you're driven, you know, I was always driven with some unbelievable passion and love for what I was doing. I thanked every moment, you know, that I had a chance to sit in the cockpit of a race car. And again, you know, some of the people around me that could see the passion and they were helping.

him, you know, trying to help me move on and pick up the opportunities, you know, when from sprint cars, you know, you look around. There's always somebody, obviously, better than you, no question, you know, and you try to learn. You try to say, what can I learn from Don Branson, from H.J. Ford, from Perneli Jones and people like that, and McCluskey, all the guys that, obviously, you know, were the best at their game, you know, at different places. And, and, and try to put that to good use. It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, you know, in, you know, in a race that I was in, you know, in just before Indianapolis, in 1964, and all of a sudden, they don't have a driver. And guess who was in line to test for the team in Trenton before Indianapolis?

It was Roger Penske. Yeah. Or me. And he talks about it at times, you know, and sometimes. And then it was Roger or me. But Roger, the last minute, had a commitment somewhere else with his businesses and so forth. So here I am. And it was during the fire some tire test.

Yeah. And somehow I impressed somebody. You know, Roger Ward and Pernilly Jones were in the same test. And then Roger Ward, then they got it in the roaster that I was right. They were running a rearranging car at the time. And they got in a rooster I was driving. And Roger, it was impressed at the time that I made because it was quicker than he was. You know, but he just took a couple of laps, but he thought that.

And then, you know, I skipped Indy that year because Clint Brown, says, no, you're not ready for that, and he was so right. And, but I drove a couple more races during that season, but I wanted to keep my rookie status for the following year. And then the following years, you can see in 65, it was a true rookie year, and it was with a Dean Van Nuke group and the right people, you know. Yeah.

I'm proud of Jim McGee, and that's the whole thing. And they were so patient with me and everything. else and they just knew how to deal with me, to cool me down. You know, we figured, because Jim McGeech says, you know, I'm going to start sending you Christmas cards in August because you'll never make it to Christmas. So it was that kind of thing. So, you know, just don't go any, you know, don't take any more chances that you really need to, you know, for us, we're all good enough.

I mean, all of what they were telling me was exactly what I needed. It's not that it's slowed me down. but it probably kept me, you know, inside, you know, the danger area, a little more, if you know what I mean. So a lot of those things really work for me. And then, you know, finishing third and getting the rookie year at Indy and my rookie year, of course, it's the only time you get a rookie. But then winning the national championship in my rookie year, you know, that was a big one for me, as you can imagine. Because it opens up, you know, opportunities. The other opportunity was that all of a sudden I had a great relationship with Ford because, you know, using the new forward head cam engines.

Then, you know, I'm befriending them, you know, on a Lamont program to get into sports cars. And then from there, you know, they were involved with Holman and the Moody, you know, in the sports cars. And then I said to John Holman, I said, hey, you know, about, you know, running Daytona or something. Sure enough. You know, he had a car for me to run the biggest race in NASCAR and things like that. You know, it just one thing led to another, if you will. Yeah. And, you know, as you went on and started competing against the top level of drivers

and feeling like, you know, you have a chance gives you that confidence that you need. You say, you know, you start thinking, you know, maybe I belong here. Yeah. You know, and that's how it was. What did you find? I was going to ask you, if you look at the career on paper, there's all these really great opportunities, bam, bam, bam. And I'm thinking, man, I wonder how I'm trying to put myself back in 1966.

And I'm wondering, like, how is one guy getting opportunities in so many sections of motorsport that aren't really all that related, like NASCAR? and going from Champ Car into some of these opportunities that you had NASCAR and so it's that relationship with Ford it's probably also Chris Economacky and other people like that

with their coverage of motorsport especially up there where you're from in Nazareth you know so you get these opportunities to come down and drive in NASCAR but you had been driving USAC stock cars so I mean this isn't like completely unnatural right when you get behind the wheel of a car Daytona?

Yeah, no question. Actually, yeah. It's the opportunity to run USAC stock cars, which was the same exact rules as NASCAR, was huge for me. And I remember, you know, I did pretty good on the road course. In fact, I even won the Cowartre 250 up in Mossport and stuff. But the old was, you know, I didn't have much of an opportunity.

If you couldn't, USAC didn't have many of them except Milwaukee or something like that. And the coin, we run on the dirt. But here I'm, you know, and actually, you know, Fernady Joan just passed away, you know, and I brought up something along the way as to, you know, how we became friends. So we were teammates, actually, in the USX stock cars, and we were testing Milwaukee. And I couldn't come close to this time. And I asked him, I said, after lunch, I said, can I sit in the car with you and just hang on to the roadbar and watch you operate this thing, you know.

And that's exactly what I did. And, you know, Dale, you can imagine, you know, what you see, you know, he was so calm, so cool. know, feeding that wheel, you know, to the corners. And it taught me something, you know. And he was good, you know, he was good. He didn't, you know, he wasn't afraid of sharing, if you know what I mean, like some might be, you know. And so that's how you, you know, you just got there and he said, yeah, I learned from

you, man, you know, you're the best. And you go out there and you try to emulate people like that. And then, you know, again, when I get into stock, my first experience, I'm. actually at the Daytona, I've got to go back. It was Smokey Unique, you know, Smokey. You used to have a car at Indianapolis and everything else. In 66, he invited me to drive for him. He had a Cheval down there.

And I'll tell you what, that was really an experience that was worth a book to write him. Because, you know, Smokey, the reason he hired me for that race was he wanted to experiment with some setups that some of the veteran drivers would probably have nothing of it. And with me, you know, being there, what the heck did I know? He said, don't worry, don't worry, good, you know. Like he wouldn't even leave in the shop to get fitted in the car.

So don't worry, don't worry, you're fit, you're fit, I'll get a seat, you know. And then we go out there and you had this wild setup to me. And I figured, man, I was like on the povostick out there on the banking, you know. And I said, and I had some experience on the banking even with a sports car. should do it flat, you know. But, you know, he couldn't do it flat with a stock car, you know. But at the same time, man, I was all over the place. And then I realized that he was just trying, he had some crazy setups that he wanted

to experiment with, and he did it with me. But the following year, when I got in Ford with the Home and the Moody Group and the old Jake Elder, you know, was my crew chief, man, I said, now it's a race car. Yeah. You know, because as a race driver, you know, I don't care what you're in. What feels good, feels good. You're looking for the balance. You're looking at the field.

And all of a sudden, oh, man, because at first I thought, man, these guys have got to be magicians to drive these things. They all feel like mine. Yeah. But so, you know, that goes back to being with the right team, even when you're green about it, if you're with something that actually feels good as prepare, right, it's a big deal. It makes all the difference in the world. That Daytona 500 win in 67 with Holman Moody, I've heard over the years just little snippets

about how your teammate was Fred Lorenzen. Obviously, you know, Fred's the regular competitor for the team and he's going to get the primary car, the primary engine and all of these things. And I'd always heard and just assumed even that your, you know, your car wasn't going to be quite as good and you're going to have the second-rate pit crew and all of those things, yet you still win the race. There was something, I guess, that Donnie Allison told you a little bit about, that teed you off on how your engine was a bit underpowered and so forth.

What did Donnie share? Well, like I said, you know, and 100%, 100%. I'm clearly mentioning that because it was tough to get information, even from my own teammates and whatever, because I knew the gear that I was driving, I mean, that I had in a car was a 370 gear. And, you know, with a proper engine and the spoiler that I was running, I should have been, you know, at least tacking around 7,200 rest.

And I never saw anything over like 6,800. And that's why, while qualifying, with that engine, I use a 60-degree spoil instead of a 45, even though, you know, even the foreign engineers said, no, man, we were in a wind tunnel, you know, and the race, the 60-degree spoil, you're going to be all over the place. It's going to be too loose and whatever. I had no choice, but I had to stay with it because then, you know, I was stuck with it. You had to race with what you qualify it.

But then I find out, you know, from I asked Donnie, I said, what rest should I be pulling? He says, you should be pulling around at least 7, 71, 7200 rest. I thought, oh, man. Then I started looking at, you know, some of the, for the qualifiers, you know, for there were like between one hundredth at that time. And engines were coming in for different cars. and I'm having a tough time with the individual that I'm not going to mention his name before. You know, he was not very honest with me. And I said, can I see the dinosheets on all the different engines?

Oh, I said, they're all within three, four horsepower. So the engines, they came in, there were four or five engines, and they were tagged, you know, like it was FOIP, and there was, I think it was kale. I think, and, you know, I'm ready and myself, so I switched. I switched one of the, I said, oh, no, you can't do that. Now that tells me everything. Yeah. So, so anyway, then I went on and, and I started, I started complaining a little bit to John

Holman, and he, I tell you, he was my friend. thousand percent and uh he got waddell wilson yes i didn't know it until just really late the wadell wilson built my engine for the race and and i'm scoping tires for the race and i'm running pretty much curtis turnus uh you know qualifying speed yeah and uh and i figure oh my god the car The car was not, by myself, I was really neutral. And then I try maybe to, I said nothing I could do aerodynamics. So I figured I put a stiffer front bar. Then I was still, I was, it was better, but I was just pushing.

And it was nothing any better. The back end was still, you know, the aerodynamics was overridingly mechanical. So I had to deal with it. Yeah. And the one thing that I learned quick, you know, early enough is that, you know, I started 12th and I got myself into the lead pretty quick and leading I was in pretty good shape. You know, the car actually, you know, I was, you know, it was neutral, but, you know, I was going to get looser, but, and I had to lead as much as possible because following and really was a

problem. Then I had to make sure that I don't have too many people on my outside and trying to overtake me, you know, take me around. So I had to be a little careful about that, but I knew I had a fast car. And now, if I can keep from crashing, I think I've got a shot at picking some money today. So, and that's really what it was, because if you look at the statistic, I led like, I think, 118 or 200 laps. Yeah. So, and quite honestly, a lot of the veterans say, oh, let them leave, you know what I mean?

And, you know, we'll get them later because in those days, If somebody was on your tail, there's no way on the last lap. If you were running first, you're going to win. But, you know, a lot of things happen along the way. And Tiny Lund is the one that actually helped me at the end. I don't know if you want to hear that part. Yeah. Because on the last pit stop, you know, I was running first,

and Freddie was running second. And we came in for the same time for stop. And they helped me up. And they said, well, I thought you needed a rubber on the right front spring, you know, because you were loose. You know, well, I never asked for anything, but they held me up and he went out first. And he was already, you know, turned one by the time I left the pits. And man, that radiated me off. So I drove like I was qualifying.

I caught up with him. And then I passed them. Of course, you know, he passed him easy and those stuff. But then I couldn't shake him. You know, and this was the last stop. And unless you had a yell or something, but this was... And so we're down, maybe about 15 laps from the end. We're coming up to do some cars.

And I'm coming out of turn two. And it was coming up with tiny lung. And he was in driving, you know, where you're in your car, number 42. And he pulled to the left, he motioned me to pass the right, You know, gentlemen, you know, and I'm coming right up to him and then I swirped to the left, almost in the grass, and that startled Freddy, and I think he lifted that point. He must have because when I came out on the other side, I could hardly see him in the mirror. And he never, and I broke the draft. And then I just drove, I figured, you know what, I got to just stay on it.

and I had some pretty clean air, and I just drove my butt off, and he never caught up with me. And there was no yellow, and then that's how, you know, that's how I wanted the race. And so, and I think there was a yellow with about two laps to go. And then the race had ended in the green, like in those days, you know, they didn't have. Right. But he never caught up with me. I just broke the draft. And so I put tiny lawn on my Christmas.

Yeah. But, you know, Wadale Wilson, though, he built the motor for me. I'll tell you what. He's my hero. Yeah. He's a legend in the NASCAR world for his, His ability to create a lot of power in all the motors that he built. What a difference that made, you know.

In 1969, you're going to win your one and only Indianapolis 500. Pretty incredible. You had a really fast car, but crashed in practice, I suppose. Yeah, I mean, you know what's interesting, Dale, that, you know, talk about Indianapolis. My rookie year, I finished. third, you know, I finished the race. And 66, 67, I'm on pole both years.

I could have the easiest race in my career and dropped out. One, the wheel came off and the other side dropped the valve, you know. But, and 68 basically the same. So 69 was my fifth race, and it's the only race that I finished after my rookie year. Yeah. But we had, like you said, we had a, a. really a good car, I mean a fast car, actually, I don't know about good. It was that Lotus 4-wheel drive, which was a takeoff from the turbine of the year before

with a Ford engine. And the car was quick. It was really, I mean, air dynamic, you had some spoilers and so forth. But, you know, the teammates, you know, actually on the Lotus side, I had a couple of suspension with two crashes, even Graham Hill was one and my expense was the other one. And then when you know that I was doing like a race round with some fuel on board, and I did like 15 or 18 laps straight. And all of a sudden coming out of turn four, my right rear hub sheared and had a big crash and destroyed a car and almost destroyed myself. with it, but there was a lot of fire, and the car wouldn't even stop,

jumped out, you know, saved myself a little bit. And then this was a Thursday before the last day of qualifying, because the weekend before it was rained out. So I had one day, one day to take the spare car out and tried to work it up to speed so I could qualify on a Saturday. and fortunately the spare car was pretty good too. And we had some other issues, though, with the heating and all that. But I put the car in the middle of the front row, you know,

and Cliff Boyd and Bobby Answer. And that was, you know, gave me some confidence. But there's no way I should have finished that race. That car had a big time overheating problem. The races before that was actually I won in for it, the race before in the car, but we still have a big oil cooler on the side to cool the oil. And of course we qualify without it and we couldn't put it in the race. So my all temperature throughout the race was like in 270, 280 degrees. It will never finish.

Sure enough, you know, I'm not. You know, it went all day. And it was, you know, this grace of God it took me to the end. Yeah. I think it was Andy Grateli praying probably. And so it was very satisfying win, as you can imagine, even for Andy, which is, you know, that race, it really didn't matter to him. And so it was, you know, it was very special, you know, to be able to do it not only for myself

or also for him. there's a couple things that I wanted to ask you about with an indie and the Indy 500 bring up these ideas to me when I watch a lot of those races you mention it how so many years you'd go to the racetrack and have the best if not one of the best cars and mechanical failures were such a common occurrence and I mean it bit you all of the you know the answers and AJ and everybody experienced so many difficult moments at Indy in terms of failures with with you know some random part and there was so much creativity among the cars you mentioned the turbine car the four drive and and all these different types of vehicles that were being used I remember I mean I went down into the

museum at Indy to see to see the one car that Smokey built and thinking that side car concept that he created, I'm like, who in the hell would climb in that thing? Bobby Jones. Run a lap.

That is insane. So, you know, I guess, I mean, when you don't, when today all of our cars that we have, at least in the NASCAR world, they're bulletproof. Engines are bulletproof. You rarely have failures.

years. And so, you know, but go back to the late 60s in that era of IndyCar when you know before the race begins that you've got a winning car, but you don't know how long that thing can stay in one piece. How frustrating, I guess, was that for you throughout your career? Well, as you can imagine, you know, it was in that sense. I always say that most, you Michael's, my son Michael and my style would really work today. It didn't work in those days very much because we were flat out right from the get-go. We were not very patient. And again, in those days, the way the rules were, we were squeezing everything out of the engines.

Where today, by contrast, the engines have to make so many miles before they even pulled out of the car, you know, you get penalized. Yeah. So the rules today are fabulous as far as a reliability factor. And that's a beautiful thing because today's drivers have the best chance ever, except for a mistake, you know, either by driver or by crews, you know, to finish the race. And as you say, you mentioned in the 60s, 70s, 80s, even in early 90s. It wasn't like that. And we suffered tremendously from that standpoint because of reliability.

I mean, they're races that Michael, you know, himself or myself, that we were just flat. I mean, just all we had to do is cruise, you know, and bring it home. And we had so much of a lead. And then an engine like at Palspring or something like that, you goals or, you know. And yeah, yeah, frustrating, say the least, that's the way the rules were. And, you know, if you had at your disposal, 15, 12,000 RPM, 15,000 RPM, you went to 15,000 RPM or 155, you know what I mean? So it's just one of those things.

The rules are the ones that made a big difference in today's motorsports across the board. I mean, you've got everybody finishes 24-hour races, if you will, which is. awesome. And I mean, looking NASCAR the same way. You know, I just, when do you have an engine blowing? Once, I mean, you know, I'd be 55 races or something, you know. So, and that's, that's a great thing. But we, in those days, we didn't have that luxury, if you will. And it was what it was. Frustrating indeed. You see back how many races you give up, because you gave up, Because of that and nothing you could do about. I give you one, for instance, in 1987, I had a car that, you know, probably the only time that I felt ever going to a race.

Today they have to beat me. They had that confidence, you know, with Adrian Nui, my engineer and all that. I mean, we had the car so, I mean, we were in a sweet spot, the home. Anyway, here we go. I got the new Elmore and a Chevy engine in there and there was kind of a new situation. And

the engine guys always say, you know, keep the rest down. Keep the reds down. So on the super speed we always got two top gears because you know, in case you're drafted somebody or you're alone, you know, you're 50 and 6th. Well, anyway, so obviously I'm leading.

I've got 23 laps to go. I got a lap and a half lead on El Answer and so I'm cruising and I'm driving with the top gear but I'm benounce to me I was driving in a bad harmonic range of the engine

I know it was laboring but as I said resonating my ear was always keep the revs down keep the reds down well I was keeping the revs down and then I dropped the valve 23 laps ago and a lead

and then they defined out later if I would have run the engine, like 400 revs, more, I would have probably made it to 500 miles. Can you imagine that? And I was always, I was always, you know, accused of, you know, running too hard and, you know, abusing this and that. And this is one time that I was really trying to be easy on it, and I shouldn't have been. Yeah. So you figured that one out. I um you know

with talking about mechanical failures also for for a very very long time there was always a very serious threat of fire and we've all we've both had our own experiences with that uh I've always felt extreme I always felt like in stock cars

it was a very rare fear, and I didn't need to concern myself with it. I never thought I'd got to back our car into the wall and be in a ball of fire. But in an indie car, that was always a possibility. I mean, you guys are literally sitting on top of the gas tanks. And we've seen all kinds of horrific scenes over the years in indie through the decades,

how did you manage, I guess not only that threat and that fear of fire, but also to your comments earlier, the injuries and the commonality of crashes always, you know, being severe and producing injury, you might not have talked about it openly in the moment when you're doing it because you can. As a race car driver, you never want to. to tell people you might fear something or you might be apprehensive about something. But now, looking back on those days, how did you guys compartmentalize the dangers? Because those dangers were never more real in motorsport than an IndyCar in the 60s and 70s and 80s.

Yeah, I mean, there's no question about it. And quite honestly, you had to be numb in your mind to the these potential dangers because and believe me you knew that possibilities was there because it was all around you was happening to your best friends and so forth and that but if you're going to be in a business you could not dwell on it you had to just somehow thinking you know putting yourself in the hands of you know someone bigger than you know and I believed you know, I'm religious to that point, you know, that I believe that I always have asked for some help, and I think I got it. I had an uncle priest and a family, and I think he over, he did some overtime work for my half, I think.

And somehow, I don't know why I was so fortunate. You know, going back, like you're talking about the fuel, in 19, the car. in 1965, 66, 67, we had, you know, we were, I was 75 gallons of fuel on board. I had, you know, 30, you know, 30 plus 37 gallons on each side, and I was in the middle. You know what I mean? Did I ever, you know, they think, oh, well, okay, you know, this could be pretty much a bath there. But you can. You could not dwell on that in those days because there were so many other factors, you know, not just the fire, But, you know, the safety just wasn't there. Even the integrity of the chassis and so forth was nothing like, you know,

we're experiencing today. There were no crash testing, you know, that was ever part of the construction of the cars. And again, you just had a, you knew what you knew at that time. And you had to go with it. If you were going to race, you had to be ready to, you know, to deal with the potential danger. and hope and pray it's not going to happen to you. I, you know, quite honestly, I had a young family, you know, in my life. And I was, you know, I can just not imagine what my wife was thinking all along, you know,

about, you know, knowing that some of our closest friends, you know, were not there anymore. And they had young kids. And then yet, you know, I. I had, she would not ever, ever make me feel guilty for trying to just doing something I love and satisfying myself and taking, you know, so much risk. And so I had that help on the side without realizing, even later on when you start reflecting on your life, you figure, oh, my God, look out, you know, fabulous, you know, she could have been

just one important measure in my life that could have just destroyed. my mind in that sense, but no, she didn't ever, you know. So all of these things, but my, any of this danger potential was overcome, but my desire to do what I wanted to do at all cost. I was just thankful to be there, having that opportunity, and that overrode everything else. And that's all I can say, because, like I said, you know, we're not all that stupid, you know, but sometimes you just want to be numb to certain things. And not dwell on. And that's really what got me through at all.

I think, you know, you never did run NASCAR after that, you know, that little opportunity, a few opportunities you had in the 60s. I know why you went, you know, you go to F1, then you have this really incredible career in IndyCar. So I know there were commitments that probably limited other, you know, other opportunities like that. But did you ever, in all those years, have a curious mind about going back to NASCAR or having another opportunity at Daytona or anything like that? Well, you know, realistically, I was really fortunate, as I said, that I was able to, you know, to join one of the top teams, you know, factory teams. And that was not always available. That was that option, you know, the more time.

went on, you know, just dwindle because of, you know, more professional commitments, if you will, even sponsorship-wise and so forth. So that reality sort of vanished to some degree. And so I had so much else, you know, that I wanted to pursue. My objective also was, you know, to really at one point get into Formula One because that's where my love for the sport was born, you know, just basically following Formula One when I was just a young teenager, you know, and I had done, you know, Formula One, actually I got a good, a good sendoff, if you will, on my first experience, because I've got to tell you, in 1965, you know, when Jim Clark, you know, of course, world champion at the time, won Indy, and then Colin Chapman, of course,

you know, in those days we spent a lot more time at Indy than we do even today. So I wanted to befriend them for sure, which I did. And then when we were saying our goodbye is after the banquet, I said to Colin Chapman. I said, Colin, I said, someday I would like to do Formula One. And he said, Mario, he said, when you think you're ready, you call me and I'll have a car for you. You imagine how that meant for me at that point. So three years later, after winning, you know, the 12-hour receivry with Bruce McLaren, you know, the Ford and so on and so forth, I felt I had done quite a bit of road racing and also I won a few races and Indycar, road course. In fact, I won the first row course they ever had in a championship in 65.

And I felt now it's time to test the formula, get a Formula One. And I asked him if I could do the last two races of the season. And I said, yes, okay, there was no going to be Italy, Monza and the Watkins Glen. So we did a test in Italy. I needed to do a test, you know, to build a car. And I thought I went to heaven. You know, the car really, really felt so right on the road course because after that point, all that experience on the road course at the Indy car, which, you know, much heavier and, and it's

built for both, you know, it's more of a versatile type of car, but the Formula One is only for road racing, light, you know, very responsive and everything else. And then had the top wing, you know, downforce the right way and all that. I think, oh, man, and it was not easy, but it was relatively, relatively easy. And I felt so good about it. But in Monza, I could only qualify on Friday morning. In those days, by the way, there were four practice sessions two Friday to Saturday. And any, the quickest time you got at whichever practice, that was your qualifying.

That's the way of qualifying. So I had to qualify in the first practice session of the Friday because I had to come back to the States to run. who's your hundred on the dirt because I was going for the championship at 68. And so I was important. And so I asked, I got a Bobby answer a ride in a BRM. So qualifying with the slips stream each other, you know, to get a quicker time. Yeah. Because I know that I was going to have any of my teammates help me.

And so anyway, so we set a time and then we came back to the States. I mean, yeah, and ran the Hoosjean. In fact, I ran second to Foight, the weekend, and then go back to Italy. And then they won't let us start the race, even though they had agreed because there was a 24-hour rule in place, but they were going to, you know, obviously, you know, they were still going to let us do it. They were going to waive it. You know, but there was a protest. There was a protest, and I think it was Ferrari for whatever reason.

and then we can do it. But the following race, which was two weeks later, Watkins Lent, I put the car on pole. Your very first. Next one, Jackie Stewart. So that was so encouraging for me, you know, here again, to be with a team that's capable. That's the whole point.

And I'm so lucky to do that. But in those days, even though I was invited, you know, to race full-time in Formula One the following year, actually, Emerson 50thalty thought it took my place. But in those days, we were earning so much more here. You know, and I never, you know, you said, oh, I don't raise for money, but you know what? You cannot ignore that, you know, because I felt the responsibility even to my family.

So I could do it because of that. I couldn't do so. I figured I'm going to do Formula One part-time until I get to drive most of the tracks and then go full-time. And so it wasn't until 1990, 75. I decided, now is the time. I got to do it. I mean, I was already 35 years old and I figured, I got to do it an hour and hour. And so that's when I made my commitment to the Formula One,

and it, you know, obviously paid off. So you and Parnelli, you and Parnelli built your own F1 team? Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I was talking, I was working for a drug, for Val and Parnelli Jones, you know, and Indy cars and so forth. And then I kept talking Formula One, Formula. I said, look, Roger Penske did Formula One and all that. And so I talked them into doing that. And at that time, we had hired, which I want to suggest,

Morris Philippe, who was one of the chief designers for Lotus, you know, with Colin Chapman. And he had built, you know, the 19702, 73, 177. for indie cars he had designed. And then so I said, now is the time for you to design the Formula One car. And so we campaigned a Formula One car in 75. And it wasn't very successful. I only had a fourth place finish, the best finish. The car was not really competitive because actually, I give you, for instance,

before South Africa, we tested a Riverside. And that point, I had been driving a Formula 5,000 car, which we won a lot of races with. And I could come within a second and a half to my Formula 5,000 car at Riverside. I said, I don't know how much it could be Formula One with this thing. So we had a little issue. But then the beginning of 76, you know, we were in South Africa, and then we were at Long Beach for the second race. and I'm in the car on the grid and Chris Oconomacki puts the mic on me and said, Mario, they said, what's your reaction that this is going to be your last Formula One race

because Val and Pernelago-Zone decided to withdraw from Formula One. You didn't even know? You know, so I can imagine what my reaction was, you know, at that point. But, and is here again, as fate would have it, the following morning, I'm having breakfast at the Queensway Hilton, right there in Long Beach, and Colin Chapman was having breakfast by himself, a couple of tables away from me, so we're looking at each other. And we're both with a chin in our socks, you know, and Colin says, you know, we're talking. He said he had the worst race as a team owner ever the day before.

He says, you know, things are not really going well. And I said, well, I said, Colin, I'm out of a ride. I said, Mario, I wish I had a decent car to give you. He said, so I said, you mean you would have a seat open for me? He says, well, yeah, but I don't have it. You know, the car is not very good. I said, well, if you'll have me, I said, and make me number one. And I said, we'll make car better.

I said, we'll make it better. And that's how our relationship started without even a contract. Yeah. Just went. And, you know, something, we got to, the reason I said, number one, because there was only one good chassis, one good energy in any team. It had to be number one. And sure enough, though, we got better and better.

I had like three podiums that year, and I won the last race in the season in Japan, which was, you know, a race, you know, a lot of rain, but I was on pole and it dry. So it was not just a lucky thing. Yeah. Because I won by over a lap and a half, you know, over second place at that time. And again, that started everything, you know, for us. You know, the following year, 77, 78, you know. you know, it's a banter for us.

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to create, you know, any advantage you could aerodynamically. You also had, I guess, your own knowledge from car setups on oval racing with tire stagger and crossweight and stuff like that, that you could introduce to the team. How did those things, I mean, you'd never think that tire stagger would be applicable in a road racing. Crossweight to an extent, I mean, we would set our cars up, on road courses.

If you've got a lot of right handers and only a couple of lefts, you might split the Brew Springs to help you in the more, the corners that you're going to, you know, the corner that's going to be, you're going to be turning right the most and you want to, you know, have the car helping you there.

But what are some of the things that you brought to the table for this race team to make that car better? Well, you're right. I mean, there's actually quite a few tricks that, I think I had up my sleeve that were not a general way to go, you know, in road racing in Formula One. And as you say, especially in those days when we had cross-whip pliers, you know, tires, you know,

before the radios, you could really change the circumference of the tire with just a couple pounds of air difference and so on and so forth. But nevertheless, those little tricks and then try to compensate but change in the springs so you don't have crossway when you have a little bit of stagger. And as you say, maybe just favor some of the quick corners, you know, where you can make up some time and maybe give up a little bit in some of the other areas. You know, you know what I mean? Try to favor a certain area. And that's something that I couldn't even explain it to calling to some degree. You know, you said, why are you doing that?

I said, just do it. I said, I can't even explain it. Yeah. And but then even on the ground effect, we had no idea that we actually started with ground effects. Because all it was, you know, whenever we were just throwing ideas around at the end of 1916, 76, you know, the question was put out to me by the designer says, Mario, you as a driver, what is your wish in a race car? And I said, you know, the wish is downforce without the penalty of drag.

Yeah, yeah, right. You know, nobody laughed, actually, because I brought up an example. In 1970, in March 701, had two, you know, wing-shaped pods on each side, which was strictly aerodynamic. It was aerodynamicist and everything else. And we're testing in South Africa, and I figure, we're at altitude. I figured maybe those things create a lot of drag. So I was there, you know, with the STP, Granger said, let's take those off. So they took him off and all of a sudden, I'm flying the front end.

More, I had to put four degrees of front wing to compensate for those. So when we were chatting, you know, about five years later, six years later in England, I said, you know what, that didn't create that drag factor, no more drag. And I said, but it created some downforce on the front. I said, so, I said, what if you just put something like that, shapes, but longer, go to wheelbase to wheelbase, and put fence on the side, which the others didn't, and see what that does? And we had, we started ground effect without knowing, but as we went on in the season, we learned something beyond. I was testing in Hockenheim, in Germany. And one corner, the Bush curve that connects a two long straight, to the long right-hander.

And going into there, obviously, when you get a roll in the car, I was closing the gas. you know, between the ground and the fence, you know, on the side. Yeah. All of a sudden I was picking up down for us. And I got braver and braver through that corner. And I said to call and I said, something happening here. So he sent one of the boys into town to get some strips of plastic. And that's what he, popped riveted it on the side.

And I went out, oh, man, all of a sudden for about two laps until I wore him off. I said we're picking up a tremendous amount of down force there. And that's how they saw all of a sudden we realized what was happening. But there's so much to talk about here. But then, you know, so you couldn't put the strips on there. There was no rule about it either way. But we put in bristles like a... Like a brush.

Like a brush. Yeah. You know, for a few laps. Yeah. I mean, for a few races. Because it was better, not as good, but more consistent. assistant, and then he designed the moving skirts. You know, which was actually, but he had to drive really clean because you couldn't catch,

you couldn't drive on the curves. Right. So you were, but there was, it was not that much of a penalty. You know, you can still do that. So, you know, that's how that developed into the total ground effects. And it was so fascinating to learn that. And the other thing that's really important, Dale, is the fact that they were doing wind tunnel testing. And in those days, it was static wind tunnel.

And they were making some changes. And all of a sudden, I'm testing. It's not coinciding with what the theory was in that. And Colin came up, brilliant, to build a moving road, like a belt in the tunnel. All of a sudden, everything was different because you had to rotate the wheels. Yeah. And, you know, the airflow was totally different, and that's how everything started being perfected, started zeroing in what was going on. So it was so many incredible things happening, you know, like during that one season, 77.

And then the 78 car, which was a low of 79, cleaned everything up. They cleaned the diffusers and did a lot of things. things to make it better. But in 77, I ran out of fuel twice leading any one of those one races that I could have won. It would have been a world championship of 77 as well. And in Canada, I had a lot plus lead on Jody Shepter. You know, on the last lap, my engine blew because it was right now the Cosworth was experimenting with just one ring. pistons, which I didn't need. And they ran out of oil and blew the engine on a straightaway,

my straightway and ready straight away. And on the last lap, and even finishing that race would have been a world championship in 77. Can you imagine that? I can't. So, you know, you're, you make it to F1 and you're having success. obviously F1, the success of a team and the competitiveness of a car, especially during this time, there's so much being learned in ground effects and all the other things, the mechanics of the car. The success and speed of the car will ebb and flow, but you're here. You made it to F1. Why would you ever leave?

Well, it was a good question because what was happening here is that, like in 1970s, 79. Then Colin obviously perfected a lot of things and he built the Lotus 80, which had, you know, more down force and so forth. But it was like a kickdown actually used to drive him crazy when I said that. I said, the Lotus 80 is like a beautiful lady with a very elegant dress and everything else, but with cancer inside and the body. What I meant by that, he did not improve. the chassis, the tub. And there were more down force, you had to run, a lot more, like, stiffer springs and everything else.

We were getting so much, and then, what, the torsional problem, you know, we had no torsional actually stability at all. And just, and I proved it to him, you know, we were testing in Spain, just jumping the curve. Every time I jumped a curb, the car felt different in the next corner. And somehow we were losing, he was either losing into something that was not jiving between us. And it became so frustrating that I had to get out then. Yeah.

I had to find, and there was no team. I joined out for a male in 1980, and that was not a good experience. And then there was no other good seats open, and I figured I'm coming back, coming back. States and end my career here, which there was a good thing for me because I won still another championship and 18 more IndyCar races. So I did the right thing ultimately, you know, I have no regrets in my career. This is, when you read this on paper, it just sounds insane. You were declared the winner of the 1985, or the 1981 Indianapolis 500. You run second to answer, Bobby Unser, but he was penalized for passing a car under caution. So that made you the winner.

But they protest, you know, Penske and Unser protest the penalty. Four months later, they overturned the victory and replaced that with a monetary fine. You still have the winning ring from the 1981 Indianapolis 500. That's the one. Like, that's crazy. Four months later. Well, here's the thing. I've got to give you a quick synopsis of what really why it's hard to swallow that pill.

Oh, I bet. As you say, you know, by rule, by rule, they penalized. And the rule said in those days, they didn't penalize you during the race. They penalized you after because there was no computers. It was always. That was the way it worked. You know, they would go through the tapes overnight. The race was never efficient until five in the morning.

always the next day. And so anyway, I was declared a winner because he passed on 11 cars under the yellow. Penalty is one lap. And so, but you're allowed to protest or, you know, Roger protest and so forth. And they dragged this thing on. They brought in there a famous sports lawyer from Philadelphia. I know I'll never forget the guy. And he got his way in every way.

And anyway, and they went, they were, had. Deposition after deposition, calling everybody, what did you see? What is it? You know, there's no way they could turn it any other way, except the fact that the lawyer taught that USAC to allowing three judges, outside judges, to come in and make the final decision. One was a local radio personality, and the other two were two CEOs, one from Chicago, one from Mexico,

one from LA. And so Charlie Brockman was a radio personality from Indiana which he said, you know, he says his decision was to keep it the way it was. And the other two, they came up with the solution that under these circumstances, the penalty is too severe. So they find him $40,000 and they gave them the race back. Well, it gets better. The following year, at the driver's meeting, I raised my hand at the end of the meeting, I said to Tom Bimfer, who was a race director the year before as well, I said, Tom, any rule changes from last year? He said, nope, nope. So technically I said, if today I pass 11 cars under the yellow and cross the finish line first,

is the fine still $40,000 and I keep the race? oh oh no no no so you can oh so the rule will apply this year but it didn't last year so Mario it was out of my hands he said I penalized them

but you know what happened so that was a farce about this whole thing it was hard for me to swallow to today and it's unfortunate you know Bobby always thought we were I didn't even blame them I didn't blame even Roger

they did what they could but I blame USAC. I blame USAC for allowing an outside force to come in and dictate how to interpret the rule. That was the part that actually got to me. And I could never forgive that to USAC. Yeah. And so I still think legally I won that race. Yeah, for sure.

I love the fact that you're wearing the ring. They wanted it back and I wouldn't give it back. I wouldn't give it back. And I would wear it every day. I, you know, you had this really incredible return to cart, won a lot of races, got to race with your son. That must have been incredible to be able to spend a lot of those years competing and working right alongside Michael. I mean, obviously, the Andretti family is really big, and there's a lot of people with that Andretti last name that competed. But what are some of your fondest moments with Michael?

On the racetrack, off the racetrack, what are some of the times that you really appreciate the most? That's an easy one. I mean, you know, then Michael and I were on podium 15 times in the car race. And we started on the front row 10 times and we were first and second, five times. It's something you can never design. It just happened. And when Michael came on the scene there, you know, he was at the top of his game, obviously. and then because of that, I mean, I was standing up on a seat more than I would have usually.

And, you know, I was on my way out. He was really at the top of his game. But he gave me more life in my career because, you know, he pumped me up. I remember the very first time that he did a competitive pass on me and then he won the race. It was at the medal end. And he went by me actually with touch reels, you know, on a hairpin. so forth. And I said, you little, and then I think, that's my boy. Not so bad, you know, that's my boy out there. So there was that kind of a feeling, you know.

But looking back, you know, there was great moments, you know, that will stay with me forever. You can imagine. Racing with your son must have always been a big joy. I want to know after, you know, after you completed your career, looking back through everything that you ever done. Who are some of the drivers? I guess give me a driver's name or two that you just always love to compete against or look forward to racing against. Well, you know, let's face it, every level that you come up to, you know, there's always somebody that's a current champion. The one that stood out to me and to today even, when I broke into the champ car ranks, you know, and the Indy car, who was there?

The guy that was the king was aging. You know, he was five years my senior. He was already established champion. And he was the guy, you know, that I figured, man, you know, if I can just keep up with this dude, you know, I'd be something. But that's what makes you work hard. Somebody like that, you know, you look back, you know, and later. when you reflect on things.

It's because of individuals like that that made you a better driver because, I mean, then you really start reaching. You know, you just, if you have that, obviously, you know, that objective, you know, so somehow, you know, that's why I got to beat somehow. That's the ultimate satisfaction. That's what makes you know.

That's what makes you better. Yeah. And, you know, he's one, for sure. like I said earlier my first Formula 1 race having, you know, alongside of me

current world champion with Jackie Stewart. My goodness, I mean, you talk about confidence, you know, probably, you know, you have to be careful

not to be overconfident, but at least makes you feel like you belong. You see what I mean? And that's huge, you know, at some time when something

you want so bad and you have some doubts and then it's confirmed, you know, what? They knew I was here yesterday. You know, you see what I mean? These are the moments that

are priceless, if you will, just in your life and your career. And as you said, there was, you know, throughout the years, though, I mean, there's always somebody out there that's better than you. But that's what makes you work. That's what gives you the incentive.

You know, just to reach, reach, and reach. When you when you retired, somebody told me this story and I didn't know whether this was true or a bit of you just telling a joke, but somebody said that you learned that you were allergic to retirement. What did you mean by that? Well, actually, it was actually physical. I started having some issues that I never before. I started having some really.

issues, you know. And I said, man, I never experienced that in my life. And, you know, I'll go out there, you know, go to doctors and they tried to figure it out. And they looked back in my history. And finally, there was a doctor at the University of Philadelphia, of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, that he kind of, he was interested in my case. I said, how, you know, he said, explain to me your life. And then I was telling him about racing all my life. It was just a teenager and so forth. He said, I think I got it.

I think you lived your entire life, basically up to now, on adrenaline. And your body thinks you're dead. Your body has to readjust. You know, it's really amazing. And then I get, all of a sudden I get the opportunity to do it, like a one-off race, Lamont. You know, I retired from, I'm in a 65, I mean in 1994, 1994. In 1995, I have an opportunity to drive Lamont.

And I'm testing on the short track of the mind, all of a sudden I said, oh, my God, I have a life back. You know, so, and it's amazing. And then, you know, I stayed in touch with the doctor. And it says, I think it's going to take five to six years maybe. You said to your body to really readjust. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. You know, just after a while, then doing, you know, I did some testing with Michael, like in 2003, you know,

at Indy getting in the cockpit and everything else. All of a sudden, that seemed to be where I belong, you know, and then, like I said, all of a sudden, everything just came back to normal. Yeah. But it took them about five, six years to do it to get back to that. You had that. You talk about testing for your son, Michael, and everybody remembers that day. We got, you know, the, it was a bit of a private test at Indy, not a big deal.

You know, and I just remember the news, it was like a news flash, you know, ESPN or somebody, you know, breaks in and says, hey, this has just happened. is you know you ran over some debris and your car just took off flew up into the air that was like I mean that was a scary moment for me as as a fan and anyone else who knew the name Mario Andretti what was that all like for you was that a big deal I know you had some injuries some minor injuries from the crash but emotionally was that kind of the moment where you were like yeah probably I'm 60. I probably should just, you know, not do this. Well, yeah, some of that, obviously.

But, you know, it's amazing how that all got started. Tony Kanaugh was driving for Michael. And the race before Andy, he had a wrist injury in Japan. And they didn't think that he would be able to qualify for the race, but he would definitely be able to race. So there was a discussion there. In fact, we were just discussing at home. Barbie, my daughter Barbie was there and Michael,

and Michael was trying to figure out who the heck could I get to just go in there to qualify the car, but not to race it, you know? And Barbie says, well, once you ask Dad, I was there. He says, oh, Dad, what do you think? I said, I'll do it. I said, I'll do it. I said, if we got to have a proper test and everything else, they're going to get familiar. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there was a normal test, you know, at Indy. Like, you know, all the teams were there. Yeah. Basically, it was an open test. And so it was good, be able to measure up and everything else. And, you know, it was a good car that set up and everything else. You know, they had a good car at the time, competitive. And I, I, I was feeling very, very comfortable with the car. In fact, by myself, I had the quickest time that day toward the end of the day. And then, you know, always me. I wanted to put a big number on the board there.

And I figured I'd get a good toe, you know. So I'm on a track, and I'm getting a perfect toe with Kenny Brack on the other Honda. And they're going into turn one. I couldn't see. I mean, I wasn't right on him. It was a good toe. is coming up. So he was out of my sight, and he blew the engine, and he crashed.

And when you're doing practice, you don't get the information that you normally erase. So there was no yellow or nothing. And when I came on the scene, there was stuff scattered stuff. And then there was a, this was the first track activity with the safe walls. And the safe walls, you know, between the two layers, you got that wedge thing. And one of the wedges flew out under impact. It was laying in the middle of the track. If you look at the, yeah, if you look at the video,

there's a white thing in the middle of the track. And it was, the wedge was just right. So when I hit it, this lodge, the car from, you know, from the down force, and I started flying. But luckily, you know, after, I think three evolutions or whatever, I landed on wheels. And I don't know. You know, I was fine.

You know, when the thing happened, it really almost busted my heel. You know, the way they broke, yeah, I broke the bulkhead. That's a much powerful because the telemetry said I was coming off turn 1 at 222 miles an hour. You know, so, I mean, it had some speed there. And then, you know, I had to let a downforce at that point is what I'm saying. So when at this lodge, I'm in the car, I started flying. But I was lucky and quite honestly, if I had to qualify the car, I would have done it. But then he was okay.

You know, he did qualify his own car anyway. So, but yeah, I mean, it was, it might have been a sign. You know, Marry, stay the hell out of it. Mario, there's, you know, you've won the Indy 500, Daytona 500, you've won every level that you ever competed in. What are the crown jewels? What are the races that you feel like are some of the biggest races in the world? Well, I think that's pretty easy. I mean, in NASCAR, it's Daytona, Indy cars, it's Indianapolis. Formula One has to be Monaco. And the sports prototypes got to be Lamont. That's a heck of a

lineup right there, man. Yeah. You've been out there and been competitive and dominated in all those. Yeah, actually, they don't give me credit, but I won Lamont in 1995.

We won class. We finished second overall. But we don't get credit for that win, but I won Lamont. I wonder if, you know, you mentioned, you've had some success at Michigan over the years.

IndyCar is, you know a mixture of oval road course and street course do you you know do you think that indy car could ever go back to michigan or ever add a large oval like that back to the schedule oh i'd love to see that i think uh you know tracks like michigan and so forth you know they were and i like the bumps too you know i don't like really smooth track anybody can drive that you deal with the bumps and whatever, you know, you keep searching for the line and all that. And I would have, you know, but it's all dictated by the fans, you know, whether the fans, you know, will be the reason that somehow Indycard disappear after the, it was after, I think, the split, you know, a lot of things, you know, that created a lot of damage for that series. And I think it's gaining its status back, you know, but I don't know if it'll ever be what it was.

But nevertheless, you know, some of those tracks like we used to run, I mean, it's going back to Milwaukee, for instance. That's a good thing. That was my favorite short oval, by far, only because all the different lines of you. Yes. The bumps and everything. And, yeah, I mean, I mean, can imagine Michigan, I mean, back in 193, you know, he set a record

234 miles an hour. Yeah. You know what I mean? That was serious speed. Yes. You know, and I still have the, you know,

the, what do you call that thing? The computer straight, you know, 252 miles an hour and straight away. Yeah, that's crazy. One thing I wanted to talk to you

before we let you go, it's been a great conversation. I really want to thank you for your time, but we can't let you leave without talking about Andretti's F-1 efforts to establish a team in that series. Where does that stand right now? Well, all I can tell you, we're working feverishly every single day to be able to earn our way in there showing that, I mean, we're serious.

You're there for the long pull, and you're ready to meet all the requirements. that they have in front of us. And it's just something very important for Michael, obviously, and I'm proud of, I think, this effort that he's putting forth and staying with it, you know. So, again, I like to think that ultimately a reason will prevail in this and it will be in there, you know, along with General Motors, you know, with the Catholic brand on our side and everything, you know, with the popularity of Formula One

in the States right now, I can't see how, you know, another U.S. team based here, you know, could not be helpful for the fan base and everything else, you know, to be so. I, again, you know, I just feel, I still feel very positive about it that, you know, that they all, to believe we're going to be in there. Yeah, I feel like, you know, I'm, I kind of come and go as a fan of F1 depending on what's happening in the series and the drivers and personalities.

And my interest in F1 would dramatically increase if Andretti were to have a car in the field just because of the, you know, the legacy that you guys have already created and everything that you and Michael have already done this seems like the logical next mountain for you guys to climb and would be fascinating to actually as a fan be on that ride that journey or be on that journey with the team trying to find success and performance in that series.

Yeah, I'm really proud Michael's ambition to do that. He's got some unfinished business there. I mean, let's face it, you know, I'm the last American to win a Formula One race. and Michael is the last American to be on a podium. Yeah. In a Formula One race, it was in 1993 at Monza. So, you know, we are part of it. I mean, this is our world, too, you know.

So as long as we meet all the requirements, it's all inside the rules. I mean, there are 20 teams on there, but 20, I mean, you know, 20 drivers on there, but 24 drivers or, or, you know, they're 10 teams, I said, but 12 teams are allowed. We will make the 11th team. So it's not as outside the rules in any area. If for whatever reason you guys want to change. You can help in any way, please do.

I was going to say if you all wanted to change course, maybe the Earnhardt's and then Dredis could team up and buy a couple NASCAR charters. We can go NASCAR. All right. Well, that's open too. Man, I appreciate it. Mario, I got to tell you, man, I feel so lucky to have the opportunity to talk to you. You're a massive hero, just so many people.

I want to tell everyone that I had my 40th birthday party. Me and Marco had become friendly over the last decade, and Marco's been super kind to me and just a great dude. I'm at my 40th birthday party of Charlotte, North Carolina, and Marco showed up with you. And I really, really appreciated that. We had a lot of great cool people there, but we didn't have Mario Andretti until Marco showed up.

But I've always thought the world of you, such a pleasure to be able to talk to you and celebrate you, wishing you all the best, tell Marco when he drops him. that we say hello. And again, thank you for letting us take some of your time today. Dale,

there's a lot of mutual feeling here. You know, with you and your dad and what you've accomplished where we are. We're all racers. And it's an incredible respect. And thank you so much

for being so kind toward us. And it's good that you have someone at your level, you know, remarkably you guys can be buddies. And you look at Day Oger for you. I appreciate it. Me and Marco are hanging in there somehow.

I appreciate it, man. Thank you very much. Mario Andretti on the Dale Jr. Download. Well, there you go. Mario Andretti. Just awesome to be able to talk to a legend. You know, when we say, when we talk about Kyle Larson being one of the greatest drivers currently, right? Is he the greatest?

What makes him the greatest? well, we always, and a lot of people do this, well, he's really good at everything, kind of like Mario Andretti. And Mario Andretti, I mean, how many times was he mentioned in pop culture, music, this, he's the standard in terms of like racing excellence. And so just really cool, great story.

You know, I enjoyed the conversation, of course, I think I would have really liked to have talked more about his really, really young childhood and the trials and challenges that his family had that ultimately ended up having them in a refugee camp and then leaving Europe altogether to move here. I'd love to get into detail, but that would probably need its own show, and I didn't want to lose opportunity on the back end to talk F1 and everything else they've got going on. But that part, I watched this movie last night about it was just a World War II film

that got me thinking about how difficult life must have been back in those days and how, you know, this is Mario Andredi the child, right? he's not even a race car driver yet and how delicate life is and how, like he said, one little thing falls the other way or a different way. He never becomes the Mario Andredi we know. And some very critical moments and some very delicate moments were happening for him back in those childhood days. So I would love to talk to him more about that. But I feel like we spent the time, well,

I felt like we, yeah, feel like we handled that really well. So this is, I'm grateful and I'm thankful because I'm able to be on vacation with my family for a majority of the, you know, this little block in the summer, still able to do these podcasts

and actually have some really unique guests on because of the circumstances of being remote. Now we can kind of, you know, I always said, You know, we're never going to interview somebody unless they can be in the room. Well, in this moment, since I can't be in the room, we can wave that personal rule and have people like Mario and Mark Martin and Luke Combs and do some pretty fun guests during this stretch. So I'm thankful for that.

And I'll be honest, when I've done this podcast, whether it's a guest segment or dirty air in the past remotely, I've hated it. I didn't feel like I didn't feel like I was doing my best work, and I didn't feel like our equipment was good enough, and the setup was rudimentary and thrown together. But we knew we were going to be here during these couple weeks in the summer, so I've spent the last six months sort of getting ready and having the right equipment and making the room somewhat functional.

And some really enjoying this. So I don't feel like we're missing out on any of the quality. And again, the guests are a bit more, you know, robust because of this opportunity. We got some, I'm going back home, so I'll be back in studio next time we're doing this. But this was fun. So I want to thank Ally, always bringing us the guest segment every week. Ally supports the Wednesday guest segment podcast. They are our official sponsor for the guest segment,

and we're so thankful for them for that support. It allows us to be able to edit, cut, create sound design, and all the things to be able to put this together and give it to you for free. And so thank you, Ally, for everything you do for us to bring. You're our ally, and thank you for bringing Allies Lake Mario, ready to the show. All right, it's time for the white flag. As I mentioned yesterday, the tear down with Jeff Gluck and George Bianchi drops

Sunday night. Monday's actions detrimental with Denny Hamlin, door bumper clear as well, came out. Yesterday we had our dirty air show, a lot of fun goofing around with the boys on that show. Today, Speed Street with Connor Daley and Chase Holden comes out and tomorrow, DJD Reloaded. Some of the things we talked to Mario about will teach. up a lot of the content that you'll hear tomorrow and DJD Reloaded. Some of those questions are going to spark some conversation on DJD Relo today.

And Dirty Mo Doe with Steve LaTart and Tampa Tams. This is a really important episode of Dirty Mo Doe because we're going to Iowa, the unknown of Iowa. How will LaTart and Tampa Tims and the guys handicap the field and what are some of the smart bets, safe bets to make? So you don't get yourself into trouble. Obviously, round three of the Denny Hamlin Bracket Challenge heads to Iowa. And although my bracket is destroyed, yours may be running strong. So follow your bracket at DirtyMod Media.com slash Bracket Challenge. Hope you enjoyed today's show.

We'll check you later. Check out DirtyMo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.