The Dale Jr. Download - 570 - The 1990 Daytona 500: Derrike Cope's Cinderella Story

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Dale Earnhardt Jr. is joined by longtime NASCAR competitor and winner of the 1990 Daytona 500 Derrike Cope to learn about his journey from the Pacific Northwest to capturing one of the greatest upset victories in racing history. After growing up with a father who competed in the NHRA Drag Racing ranks, Derrike learned the finer points of being a mechanic working in various speed shops on the West Coast. After his initial focus in life of baseball was curbed by a devastating injury in college, Derrike followed in his father and brother Darren’s footsteps and strapped into the driver’s seat. After competing in late model races, Derrike would find himself on a path that would lead him to the heart of the fast-growing world of stock cars through the NASCAR Winston West Series. Dale and Derrike give listeners some insight into the former Winston West outfit, which ran from 1971 to 2003 and was essentially its own separate entity sanctioning Cup racing on the West Coast.Derrike explains that Winston West fixture George Jefferson was instrumental in helping Derrike get his first Cup ride, and it was in this series that Derrike found his footing and learned the craft of racing top-speed stock cars before making the journey east. Derrike’s initial efforts out east were plagued by financial difficulties, but thanks to a relationship with Purolator he eventually found his way to Bob Whitcomb and they established a state-of-the-art operation with the legendary Buddy Parrott at the helm. This potent combination armed with a Dorton-built engine set sail for Daytona in 1990 and brought home stock car immortality when a dominant Dale Earnhardt Sr. ran over debris on the final lap and slowed. Dale and Derrike recap what he remembers from this memorable week, as well as his time racing for Cale Yarborough, Bobby Allison, working with StarCom, and what he occupies his time with today.  21+ and present in North Carolina. Full price of NFL Sunday Ticket will be automatically charged seasonally after free trial. No refunds. Terms, restrictions, and embargoes apply.  Gambling problem? Call 877-718-5543 or visit morethanagame.nc.gov Check out Dirty Mo Media on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DirtyMoMedia  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey everybody, it's Dellen Hart Jr. back again for another guest segment brought to you by Ally. And we have an awesome guest coming on today. Derek Cope, Daytona 500 champion, car owner. He's done a little bit of everything in this sport. And I want to find out what he's up to today. It's going to be a great conversation. So let's learn about Derek Cope and see where he's been. The following is a production of Dirtymo Media.

Hey, everybody. Dale Jr., Dale Jr., back again, the Ally guest segment. today. Derek Cote, Daytona 500 champion. He's done a little bit of everything in the sport, and I want to find out what he's up to today. Your father hadn't won the race, so we caught the brunt of all of the things that people would say. If you had social media today, it would have been like merciless.

So all you're hearing is that the word fluke became attached to the win. You know, the biggest thing can happen to you and Bob, and yet there's an asterisk by your name. All right, so back in the studio, going to have a great guest come in this room any minute now, Derek Cope, and want to thank Ally for bringing us the guest segment every single week. They do so much in this sport, and we're so thankful for them.

And, yeah, week after week, we just keep having some great times and hear some great conversations. I don't know much about Derek Cope. Now, I was around. I know when he raced and what he raced for the most part, but I never really talked to the guy. I was really, really good friends

with some people on a particular team that he race for, that very beautiful Purulator Chevrolet that he drove in the 90s or the early 90s. But I never really got to know Derek all that much. And so, yeah, this will be great for me. We're all going to learn a lot about this guy and what makes him tick, and he's outside in the waiting room. So let's bring him on in.

So Derek Cope, I'm excited to have you here. I have, we don't know. each other all that great but I do I know I mean you know I grew up watching NASCAR all my life so I watched you run a lot of races and I want to know what are you doing these days first off where'd you come from I came from Salisbury I live my wife and I Alicia live in Salisbury that's kind of where we moved to a migrated to to start the cup team for Starcom so that was 2017 and And so that's where I came from. And, you know, now I'm just kind of piddling a little bit and helping my cousin Nick out.

What is your cousin Nick doing? He runs a Nitro Motorsports. He has a TransAm team. He does also a carding program called Nitro. And he does a GR Cup for Toyota. What do you do with that? I, crew chief, some races, like the Trans Am stuff in spot. And I do a lot of the shock absorber stuff.

You know, I kind of involve and, you know, some of the things we do with the shock stuff and things like that. And then I also, once a month, do instructing at Skip Barber. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Where does that take you?

VIR. Okay. Yeah. So they have a new facility up there, and they asked me to come up there. I was close to, you know, to get there logistically, and they have me come up once a month. And I do a lot of their corporate outings, you know, for like B.F. Goodrich and or Michelin. Yeah.

How do you? I'm 65. Yeah. Good Lord. Yeah. You're taking good care of yourself. Oh, thanks. You look good.

I don't know about that, but. What's it like, I mean, I'm 50, or I'm turning 50 in October. Yeah. What's the next 15 years like? It's not bad for a while. And then all of a sudden it seems like all the wrecks, they start kind of filtering in. And, you know, you start waking up with aches and pains. And now I have a hitch of my get along.

And sometimes it looks like Quasimoto when I get up in the morning. So, you know, but for the most part, you know, I'm never really sick. I feel good and I get to go to the racetrack a lot with Nick, so I'm enjoying life. Yeah, busy mind and busy body, I think keeps you kind of young. I think so, too. So, born in San Diego, and shortly after that, you moved to Spanaway, Washington. How are you introduced to racing? My father and uncle, I had three, you know, my father and his two brothers, Jerry and Guy Cope, along with my father, Dawn.

they were drag racers. They were professional touring drag racers. So they were sending money home to us in San Diego, and they were up in Pacific Northwest and traveling around the nation drag racing, top fuel drag racing, and then later on, the twin motor top gas cars. So from there, he was offered a job by Walt Austin,

and we moved to Tacoma and then ended up starting their own engine rebuilding facility. And that's really what my introduction into motorsports was because they started drag racing and then eventually kind of escalated to doing some NASCAR West Coast Grand National back racing. Were they building motors for some of the West Coast guys? Yes. And so did they have a car?

Was there a physical car in your presence somewhere? No, we really, you know, I was doing other things, you know, sports related. You were an athlete. Yeah, I played baseball and had aspirations to, you know, to play professionally. But I loved motorsports. So I travel at 16. I was going to the top fuel car to, you know, Southern California. And so always doing something, grinding cams shabs in my dad's facility at 14 and being introduced to, you know, the makings of running, you know, an engine shop because that was our livelihood.

Yeah. So when did you get an opportunity to drive anything? 1979. I'd come off of a severe knee injury and career ending. and my brother My cleat got stuck in the grass I was trying to come back I saved like a ball from going to the dugout

and I tried to come back across myself and throw to third and my cleat got stuck and I had a complete blowout and yeah severed everything and I had to have a hamstring transfer, you name it geez, yeah that sounds terrible it wasn't good

all right, how old were you? I was, I want to say 20 and the the medical procedure for that probably wasn't what it is today. So, yeah, so you're done playing sports. Was that difficult? Yes, I think at that point, you know, when you're young and, you know, you maybe may

a bit naive too, you really feel like you have the capabilities to keep going in that vein. And when that happened, you know, I mean, I woke on the, I woke up on the operating table was six hours instead of three and a half or three. and then my knee never really went straight for three years, and so it really was, you knew it was over. And I was fortunate enough that my brother was kind of just getting involved with a stock car. And who's? My brother, he had, actually, my dad was doing engines for a lot of people.

So Steve Hemholtz had this old Chevelle. We called her the gray ghost because she was in primer and, you know, stock stub, you know, with a cage in it, right, the old days of racing. And he pretty much gave us to us. And gave you the car. He gave us the car. and basically my dad, you know, I don't know, he may have done something. I don't know, but that's how Darren started, my brother Darren.

And then I was at home watching soap operas and decided that was not the best course of action. And I was going to have to get out of the house. So I had this old Vega, and used a crutch so I could, you know, use that as a throttle. I had a cast from, you know, my hip to my ankle and started watching what he was doing. And that led me to getting involved. So you're just going to the track and helping your brother. How does the opportunity for you to drive become? Well, after I had gone through the rehabilitation or whatever,

I really kind of had succumbed to the fact that I was going to go to work from my father and his business. And then we got that race car and we took it to Spanaway Speedway, which was right there in our neighborhood, and drove it for the first time. And I was completely engulfed in wanting to drive that. and I just fell in love with it. Are you and your brother sharing the car? We were sharing the car.

Man, I had a brother. We shared a street stop. Yeah. So how'd that work? What was the process? Well, we both worked on the car, and we would work on it after we worked at the race engine shop. So it was pretty much in the evenings and stuff. And it took a lot of time and energy.

And, you know, my dad was adamant that, you know, you had to learn how to do every aspect of things. And so we shared the ride every other week. We'd go race. And, you know, Darren was the Carol Yarborough, go for every hole, you know, and it would close up and we'd tear it up. And I was a little more on the reserve side and a little more methodical in my approach, you know. And but it was a fun thing because, you know, my brother and I have always gotten along exceptionally well. And we, you know, love each other dearly. And he's been very supportive of what I've done and I've of his.

And so we did that for a year. And then, you know, then things changed. So what changed? Darren didn't really want to He loved to drive the race car But didn't really want to work on the car You know, Darren liked to go to the lake And play slow pitch

And you know, do a lot of other things And I said, my dad said You know, you're going to have to work on this thing If you're going to do this, you know And I said, I want to do it So, you know, at that point I took over the car And I started working on the car

I did the engines for the car I started really trying to push And drive myself towards that This car is it What would you consider what this car is today? Where would you put that car in what category? Street stock, would it be a sportsman car, late model? At that time it was called late model sportsman.

And it was really, in this time and age, I guess it would be more of like a, I don't know if you'd call it a, it was a stock stub deal, right? So it would be like a street stock probably, right? You know, but a little on steroids, right? Because they had the NASCAR motors with, you know, they made probably in the 500 horsepower range. You know, so they were pretty stout, really, right? But a beast. How long did you drive this car? I drove that car through, you know, 79.

And then actually what moved on me forward was that Jackie Cooper, who was running the late model sportsman division, and at that time is kind of unique because the late model sportsman cars could run with Winston West, which was the Grand National Series. So that was, they were, you know, tubular frame cars. And this car that Jackie had was a stock, was a stock clip car. but we did the engines for it and Jackie was retiring and he had wrecked the car

and so I got the car for nothing basically my dad's Jackie gave it to us because we had sponsored him for engines for all this time and then I had to go put a stock clip on it myself

and Dave Fuge was working You know Dave Fuge yeah Dave Fuge was working for Bill Schmidt in Southern California and he told me over the phone

how to go put a clip on so I went to J.J. Saffino's place there and put a subframe on it your goal, I guess, is to make it to Winston West, which is basically at that time, the carbon copy or the brother or companion to cup racing as we knew it here on the East Coast. And so, I haven't done a little bit of research and read some books, Ray Elder and a couple of the guys that were winning championships in the West Series,

And they ran really well when NASCAR and the big, you know, the Cup Boys would come to Riverside and so forth. I mean, Ray even won a couple races against Richard Petty and all the East Coast guys. So, I mean, it was a, I'm trying to see if you can help me and everyone listening understand what Winston West was. You know, I don't think there's anything today that compares to it. it's not comparable to the K&N West series as we know it today it was literally the NASCAR Cup series just on the West Coast and same cars same approach and that was really where you wanted to get to right

so help me understand what was when you're living out there in the early 80s what was Winston West racing like Winston West Grand National Racing as you had the same, you know, title to it as the Grand National Series, right, on the East Coast, right? So Riverside was run, you know, every November. And basically the cars that we were racing in the Winston West Series were the same cars to run Winston Cup. So guys like Harry Jefferson, Roy Smith, a lot of those guys were going east, and they ran Rockingham, they ran Daytona, and were very proficient.

And guys like Roy Smith were very proficient, road racers, along with Jimmy Insolo, right? So that was, and we were doing engines for the Lakes Drywall Special out of Tacoma. And the guys that drove for that was like Chuck Bowen, who made it to the Xfinity series, Jimmy Insolo. And those are the guys that, you know, were kind of the top echelon of the Winston West series. And so they would go to Riverside and run. And my aspirations were, you know, to get to that point, you know, initially. And George Jefferson, who was the only Ford on the West Coast. And Harry Jefferson, they'd been Daytona, Rockingham, Charlotte, and been successful, you know, decent.

And they don't want travel no more. So I ended up getting, I ran my first year in the late model sportsman, won a race in 1980, and then George offered me a ride in 81. And that was my springboard to really getting myself into a position to go Grand National Racing. What did that car look like? The car that I drove for George was an old Ford Fairmont. and he had a he also had a you know this old cougar and they were all these were you know like like hutch cars and banjo cars yeah and uh it came from the east coast came from the east coast and the engines were actually back then were the australian block cleveland motors that parking all the name from back here was

doing some work for him and then i ended up starting to that was part of my deal i traded my services of building the engines uh to drive the car you know and for george so I remember dad coming and running a race or two, right? He would do a one-off. He drove this white number three, Monte Carlo in the mid-80s for one of the more proficient. I can't remember the guy's name. You might remember.

Probably Bill Schmidt. Yes, Bill. He drove one of his cars once. But he went over there and would race, and like Bobby Allison would run from time to time, Richard Petty. what was that like, I guess, when, I mean, we all know that there was the Riverside event where it was a giant combination of both the West and the East Series of Grand National.

But what was it like, I guess, when one cup guy would come run one of the regular events at some of the tracks that you guys raced at regularly? It was special. I think for me, obviously, I was involved in what you were talking about at some other point. Like 1980, when I had my own car, I was about out of money. and they brought Bobby Alice into Portland, Road City Speedway. And, you know, I had not won a race yet. And Bobby drove my car and lapped the field and pretty much, you know, taught me a lot of things.

I mean, he had a little small steering wheel. And he said, do you have a problem with this car pushing all the time? I said, yeah, terribly. You know, he goes, well, we need to get a bigger steering wheel. So I went over and Leon Martinson had an old sprint car. I sent Leon over to his place there in Portland. He brought back this big old steering wheel. We put it on there.

And from that point forward, I went out in one race, and it really didn't push no more, you know. So you learn things. And then that saved me because he won the race, I got some money to do it. And then later on, I had Tim Richmond drive my car twice. Really? Yeah, Tim came out and drove my car twice. And when I ended up losing the championship in the late or the Winston West deal at Riverside for the rookie year deal, he was driving my car at Riverside.

And I have memories of, you know, I had cracked an oil pan. And I was running second to Bill Schmidt, about to take the lead, and then oil panels was leaking the black flagged me. And I was still in the hunt for the championship. And Tim was standing in front of me going like this. And, you know, so a lot of, and then I got to know Tim a lot more when I came back here. Yeah. So how does that deal work out?

Like, how does Tim Richmond, what's the phone call? Somebody calls you and says, we got Tim Richmond, wants to race. He wants to come run it? It was Ken Clap. Ken Clap. Owen Cern's Ken Clap was kind of the guys that. ran the Winston West series. And Kim was, he was instrumental in, you know, really getting relationships between

RJ Reynolds and the drivers. And I was doing a lot of public speaking for RJ Reynolds and functions. And he was instrumental. He knew we needed funding. And when these guys, they wanted to bring them in to promote the series. And, you know, Winston was doing all the stuff for all the local short tracks back then. So that's how it was happening. Talk about the years, I guess, working your way up to becoming that championship contender

in the West Series. Well, it was really, when I went to George, the first year we, you know, we didn't run well because the cars were relatively antiquated and, you know, and not really that proficient. And then Dave Fuge started building his own cars out there. It was a real first tubular chassis, you know, for the late model sportsman deal. And that was really what really started, you know, an escalation of my notoriety. I think, you know, with Dave's car and George Jefferson, the only Ford, we went out and I think we won the Apple Cup, which, was the huge first race. And then we won, like, I think we had sat on pole 13 or 17 times and had lots of wins.

And so that kind of put us in position where George wanted to go Grand National Racing. Yeah. So we had it. We built a car. It was an Ivan Baldwin car. And... What do you mean? Well, Ivan Baldwin was out of Southern California.

Ivan actually came back here, but he built cars out there. Jerry Baxter worked for Ivan Baldwin. And I stayed, you know, Jerry, or down at Ivan's place, we built that Winston West car. And we started traveling. And so my first cup race was 1982. Started in 1980, basically. In 1982, I went to Riverside. And you go race and you go make the field in the cup race.

Yes. Was there, there was probably a lot of cars there that didn't make the field because it was a conjunction race between the west and the east. What did your car look like? Our car was really a pretty blue with a J.R. with Candy Apple red stripes that went back with the number 95 on it. That's right. Yeah, Jackie Johnson was my crew chief and dear friend.

and he painted all those cars in lacquer and hand buffed them hand color sanded them hand and they were the most beautiful cars you'd ever seen you got your first start in 82 what's the process from there to get you to the east coast we ran for rookie of the year i think 80 we got i got some ford backing um and i got 7-11 chief auto parts and uh you know sitco involved oh and that was through dave fulton and that was through dav fullton and that was through Ford Motor Company and Campbell and company. So I kind of got a little bit of a factory deal from them. And that was really what really kind of gave us the, you know,

I think the look of being, you know, was tied with Kyle Petty when they had all of that, right? And so we went to Winston West Route and we won races and sat on polls and we're starting to make a name for ourselves. And I think I was doing a lot of, you know, a lot of public speaking. I was doing a lot of things for Winston. that point and promoting the series. And one thing led to another, and, you know, we got to come back

east and I ran Richmond in 84. How? How did you? We just decided to come back and try. You just said, hey, we're taking all our stuff. We're going to go run this race. We're going to go run Richmond. You know, George had done it before with Harry, you know, and he said, this is go to Richmond. And that was where Dave Fulton knew the Sawyers really well. And so we went there and made the race, and we ended up getting wrecked in it, but made the race on our own merit. you're proficient racing successful in the West Series. The East Series is there. Are you wanting to be in the East Series?

And what is the realistic opportunity and root for that? What was the examples before you of how people had made that transition? No one had ever done it. Right. And so I always, you know, I think that when I was younger, I didn't credit the West Coast series as I felt like it was a lesser than all the technology and all the knowledge and all the people and the East Coast was just a bigger machine, right? And then as I've since really become an admirer of some of the particular drivers and how they would, Ray Elder being one of the best examples, how they would come compete and win. do well when they would compete against the East Coast series.

So I want you to kind of take us into the mindset of like how steep did that mountain seem to you to like, man, we want to, you know, I went to this race, I went to Richmond, we exhausted all this effort to get there and go do it. We take home the wrecked race car and I don't have any example before me, any kind of a roadmap of how to get to the East Coast and get there and stay. there, right, and find roots in this side of the sport. So where were you mentally there and how did you make it work? Certainly, you know, you knew that it was going to take funding to be able to come to come east. And we really didn't have that with Georgia's deal and the seven-11 thing. So, you know,

at that point, I had been, you know, introduced to a guy, a very prominent businessman out of Seattle named Warren Rosori and Steve Banchero. They owned, you know, like one of the, one of the the only two garbage collection companies there and had a lot of wearbathal. And they had asked if, you know, we had discussions, they wanted to go East Coast, they wanted to go to cup racing. So it was a hard decision to leave George and that deal, you know, because, you know, he pretty much was my mentor and really the reason why I had the success that I had, along with Jackie Johnson, the crew chief.

But the opportunity to go east, we included one of the crew members, of that team and Jackie Johnson to Cruzee because he was for he actually worked for Bud Moore and Joe Fizahn and a bunch of people was born in the Camp of Bello, South Carolina. So we actually, I signed the deal with him, we moved three of us, moved back and moved to Campa Bello, South Carolina and worked with Leroy Maybury Shop right there and right around, you got to know James Hilton and everybody and became like a nice little fixture in South Carolina. We started that deal there. What deal? Well, we had it called, it was Western Peterbilt trucks.

And they sponsored the car. Who owns this car? Warren Rosari and Steve Bancherrell. What did this car look like? This car was beautiful again because Jackie did it all in lacquer. It was white, silver, and red. And it had number 79 on it in silver. And first race for that.

Forward, right? Forward. Yeah. First race went to Martinsville and sat between Gantt and Bonnet, qualified 17th, finished ninth. and that was our deal, you know. And the three of us, I mean, we lived, I mean, I lived in a little, you know, one-bedroom apartment above a garage, and we had three of us there.

We built that car. It was a Wofflin car. No family, no. No, just me. Just you. Just me. And that really was the first opportunity. Did you have relationships back west?

I had a girlfriend back there that, yeah, I left on Christmas Day twice to go back east, you know, after when that deal started, I left Christmas day after Christmas, left her there. unfortunately. And then when I, this deal kind of went sideways and I went back home, I had to go because I was under contract. I left the day after Christmas, got to put another deal together. What deal went sideways? Well, the Warren Rosori deal went sideways. We only ran, you know, maybe, I don't know, not very many races. And he wanted to, he wanted it close to home. He wanted to be the big fish in the little pond, not the little fish in the big pond, and I think decided to take it home. So he said we need to come home and run Winston West.

So I went back and I ran the street course race in the streets of Tacoma around the Tacoma Dome and sat on the pole and ended up second run out of fuel. And I asked Warren, I said, Warren, I said, look, I have had a taste of these coast and I feel like that's where I belong and that's where I want to go. And I said, if I can find a deal, a legitimate deal, will you let me out of my three-year contract? And he said, yes. I'm a man of my word. I'll let you out. And so I went to the banquet that year for the Winston West Series and met Fred St.

Stoke, and Fred Stoke was from Lakeport, California, and he wanted to go cup racing. And I said, I said, yes. Yes. And you're like, in conversation, you're like. He's asking me. He's asking you. Because I've been here. He's like East Coast.

What do you think? Yeah, exactly. I said, well, I'm under a three-year contract. I said, but Warren told me, if you called him and you had a legitimate deal to take me back cup racing, he would let me out of my contract. So what did you do? I talked, I got Fred to call on the phone with, Warren and Warren said it was a legitimate deal. I went back in with Warren and Warren said,

sounds like you got a real deal going there. And I said, yeah. I said, will you let me out of my contract? And he said yes. So you and Stoke and his checkbook, where'd you go? We, well, day after Christmas, I left again, went down in California, picked up his stuff, drove it across the southern route this time instead of across the middle of us and went back and we settled in Hendersonville, North Carolina and a guy named, I think it was Bill, I can't I remember his name now. He was the crew chief that Fred had kind of put together, but it was a banjo deal with banjo.

And I got to know Banjo that way. And Bill Edwards, he was the crew chief, and we started the process all over again. Banjo on the car? No, it was Fred Stoke. It had Stoke racing on it. It was a 19 car with all red, I think, and I went to Daytona and made a race.

Yeah. Qualified through the 125. What was that like? Is that first time you ever ran Daytona? Yes. What was that like? I mean, this is. It was 87.

That was 87. 87. Yeah. So what was your first thoughts of going around Daytona? Well, I had tested, you know, at Talladega with the deal before, you know, and so I already had some sense of, you know, what it's about. But I'd been to Daytona in 83 with Jackie just because we won the Le Maas Sportsman Championship, and I loved being there. Did you race? I know.

Just went to watch. And sat in the stands when Kail flipped it, you know, and all that. And so when I drove into Dayton, you said we're going to Daytona, you know, we didn't have a fast enough car to really make the race on speed by any means. So it was the 125. And, yeah, I drafted my way in it. And we made the race, you know, finished in the top 14. And it was on from there. All right.

So how, so what did y'all get accomplished in 87? So you had a best finish the 13th that Martinsville missed out on the rookie year. So you competed the entire season. No, we only had enough money to run 12 races. Oh, my. Had to run for rookie year against Davy Allison, who had a full deal with the gates, right? We actually sat on an outside pole at Michigan.

First time we went there, the motor broke, so I didn't get to start the race because when I shut the thing, last practice, doing a plug check, motor ran backwards and sheared a timing pin off. We didn't know it until the morning because we were out in the rain, and then everybody was trying to help us. We had a spare motor, but no time to get going. So we only ran, you know, a handful,

I mean, a number of races, maybe 10 or 11 maybe, right? But we finished sixth at Charlotte, ninth at Charlotte, 11th in other places, I think. Yeah, they're great runs. We had some great, great runs, you know, and then sat on the outside pole at Michigan, and went back, qualified 10th when we tried to, because everybody said it was, you know, we were cheating or whatever,

so I went back and I qualified 10th, and Rusty was 20th. Yeah. And so what are people calling you? Are you starting to, you're doing things that are getting some attention? Well, it was kind of the time of the real major, happening in my life because Fred ran out of money. We were in Hennesville in this little predictable. Yeah, two cars, right? And I basically was, you know, going to the races just trying to, you know, make opportunities, right, be seen. And we come back and Fred had loaded everything up and

had turned the lights off, turned power off, and went back to California. And here we are. I mean, that time, that was Dave Fuge, myself and Jim Fox, three of us. And we were, I was destitute. I basically had, I was working for food. I was not getting paid. So I was working for food, live at a place to live and, you know, eating. And so I really didn't have much to draw from at that point and maxed out pretty much maxed out credit card. But I had bird dogs trying to find sponsorship for me.

And that's when I got the call from Pure Later. How? This guy had been kind of pitching, you know, me in this deal. Pure Later had been heard that they wanted to go back racing. It was ironic because the race that I went back and ran when I had to go back. home and run that streets of Tacoma race. You know, in defeat, I was on the, you know, on the PA talking about the race. And Carol Warner and his wife Sue were the president, he was the president of Purulator.

And they were listening to me talk about it. And they were the ones that decided to go back racing, take Purulator brand back racing. And he wanted him and his wife. And I'm still friends with them today. I talk to them once or twice a month and go see him. And he said, your name came up from my wife and said, what about that kid from Tacoma? and Sue said, you know, he spoke well and, you know, he can definitely drive. And so they called me to Tulsa.

So my only suit I had and a ticket to Tulsa, and I was about destitute, and I put the deal together. So you got some money from Purulator, and Purulator's coming back. And where, what team do you pair up with? Well, there was only $400,000 to work with. They kept $25 for marketing, so I had $375,000. And come back home and I'd been working with, um, Paterson, you know, and so Pat had on-road productions, and he got a hold of Jim Testa.

And Jim Testa was working with Elmo Langley. Yep. It was Elmo Langley's equipment. So very old, antiquated equipment. And we only had $375,000, and Jim Testa took the deal. And we went racing in 88. With the 68 car. That's correct.

And so those were, damn, Elmo Langley's cars. Clark Dwyer and all kinds of people. wearing those things out. Oh, yeah. And I guess that's right around the time when Elmo just got out all together and went to drive in the pace car. It is. And so Jim Testa, though, was not new to owning cars. He'd been around Lenny Pond drove his cars and other people drove his cars from time to time. So that deal went well, went bad. What was your experience like? Well, again, you know, you're talking about a low caliber, low tier team and, you know, me trying to serve my apprenticeship for my first full season, really, you know, trying to see all the racetracks for the first time.

So it, I think it went as well as you could expect, you know, you're learning and we were, you know, having some misfortune and, you know, and running decent, right, for what we had. But, you know, through that process, money became tight and also Jim's health started deterioring a little bit. And so he come to me and said, you know, we, I have to quit. you know, I can't do this anymore. So at that point in time, that's when Bob Whitcomb had Bouchard driving, right, and they were struggling trying to find funding. No funding.

And no funding. Yeah, nothing, right, and used him, you know, his money, you know. So Bob was funding it. So I went to, you know, talk to Carol Warner at Pure later, and I said, can I, you know, I got, so we have some money left. And I said, can I go look for another team? He said, by all means, let's go find another team, let's see if we can take and, you know, salvage this year, right? So I went to Bob and broached the subject with him and he was all over it.

And I felt bad for Kenny, but it was a way for us to, you know, and I had, and I had been putting the deals together. So I had already knew that I could have this deal for next year. And, and I thought that I was going to be able to, if I could salvage it, I could get them to continue on. And that was the case. Bob took the deal on. He took it. He met with Carol at a purulator, struck a deal. And then we went on and finished the year. Yeah, I was very close. I talked to Mike all the time. You texted me the other day,

Mike Wickham, Bob's son. And this is a really fun connection for me to your career. I used to run around in the garage with Mike and all our other buddies, Brad Means, Jimmy Means, and a bunch of other folks. And we'd run in and out of y'all's holler and stuff. And this is right around that time frame. that you started driving for that team.

I remember hanging out at Mike's house and building models of y'all's car and wearing, and I've got t-shirts in my closet with you on them. So I remember Bob and his guys felt like they had a bunch of Pontiacs, and when you come to drive the cars, they eventually would get re-skinned

into the Chevroletes that are kind of, the more iconic bright pink beautiful beautiful race car yeah just an insanely beautiful race car one of my favorite cars that that um that raced in the cup series bob was he close to shutting that thing down before you partnered up with him with the pure later funding yes he i think he had resigned himself to the fact that he was you know putting in his inheritance and you know the company that was sold an aggregate company, you know, construction company up there. And he was desperately close to, you know, putting it away. And so we kind of were able to kind of like have a little bit of success.

And then when I could, when I put the deal together for them to come back the next year, that kind of, you know, was like a, you know, a lifeline that got thrown. And that's when we were able to escalate the thing and went after Buddy Parrott. Yeah. And that's really changed the whole dynamic of the team. Yeah. So explain. why Buddy Parrott is so good.

I mean, explain what he did when he walked into the room and how it transcended or changed the race team. Buddy is one of those guys that's, like, bigger than life. I think he's infectious, you know, the way that he instills confidence in people. He's fun to be around, yet very stern and demands greatness out of you. And I think he really tries to draw what's good out of you. and, you know, and instill confidence in you and prove that, you know, we could do this collectively.

And he was a great motivator of people. And I knew he had a wealth of experience and knowledge, but he'd kind of like gotten out of the sport to some degree. And our first conversations, he really didn't have, he really wasn't all that excited, you know, and we talked him into it. And he did. He accepted the deal.

And that was really a major turning point for this race team. We had a bunch of young people, but talented, talented guys. And, you know, next thing you know, and he had such relationships. You know, Robert G., you know, he knew all the right people. And buddy knew, he was a Mr. Fix it. The car was loose. He'd get it tight. The car was tight. He'd get it loose.

And he knew strategy. He knew what you needed to do to win races because he'd seen it done so many times and done it himself. And I think he just instilled that in all of us and the thing just took. off. You've heard us talk a lot about Fandual America's number one sports book. Well, we have something a little different for you. Now through September 22nd, all Fandil customers can bet $5 and they will get a free trial for three weeks of NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube and YouTube TV. Then with a YouTube TV base plan, you'll be able to watch every regular season Sunday afternoon out of market game. All you need is a Google account and a current form of payment and you can

cancel anytime. Just visit fendool.com slash Dale to download America's number one sportsbook. 21 plus and present in North Carolina, full price of NFL Sunday ticket will be automatically charged seasonally after free trial. No refunds, terms, restrictions, and embargoes apply. Gambling problem, call 87771717.18554543 or visit more than a game.n.c.gov. I want to obviously talk about the Daytona 500 because you go dry for this team mid-1989. Bob Wickham's considering whether he wants to continue

you show up at Daytona a completely revamped, reshaped program entirely. Even the visual look of the car and everything was just completely different. And so

you went from this kind of a traditional red purulator, Pontiac to this bright pink could not miss it. eye-catching, attention-getting outfit. And Buddy Parrott is the crew chief, which got everybody's attention as well.

And the other thing you talked about the talented people, when you look at the victory of Daytona, there's a blonde guy that jumps off pit wall as the team begins to celebrate Richie Gilmore. You had incredible motors and put a lot of, you know, Bob and you and everyone were investing in the right areas. to make a difference on the racetrack. I want you to walk us through January to February.

When you walk into the shop and you're looking at your brand new lumina that's getting built for Daytona, I'm sure you obviously see the difference in the type of race car that you're preparing over what you had last year for this race, and you had to be pretty excited about it. But I imagine you probably went to Daytona or maybe Talladega, but likely Daytona and tested for three or four days and all kinds of laps in this car.

When is it starting to did it? Did you realize, I guess, before you got to speed weeks that you had the kind of car that could win that race? You know, that was really, you know, like the coming on the second year of the restrictor plate. And, you know, Buddy, actually, I didn't really see the car for a while because the car was being constructed at Robert G's. So in his little place there, you know, up behind Darrell Walter, they'd still at the Speedway.

And, you know, Buddy would go there every day, every night, and those two would sit up there. And, I mean, it was kind of like the old, you know, Days of Thunder-ish thing, right? They're building this car and massaging. And, I mean, it had the fenders draped over the front, over the back tires as well. You know, everything was about speed, you know.

And Buddy, you know, pretty much with Robert G., you know, did this car together. And so when I first saw it, back up, at the shop, of course, there was a deal with the changing of the color like you talked about. You know, Purulator was rebranding. There was a talk of the dayglow, you know, and Buddy, it was instrumental a little bit of that too because, you know, he'd had that with petties and you said, hey, look, you know, we need something that stands out.

And so they went with this rocket red dayglow color. And they put the checkerboard, which became kind of like the branding, you know, of all the packaging of the brand of Purulator. So, you know, it was their entry back. And that car, I'm telling you, it was beautiful at the, at the shop. And then we went to Daytona the test, and the car was really fast. We did not, much to everybody's, you know, thoughts that it was a Hendrick Motor Deal. We did have a limited engine program.

We didn't have enough money to have a full-year engine program. So we basically had X minor races with Hendricks, but this was a Keith Dorton engine. Randy, Randy Dorton's brother at Automotive Specialist, right, Concord. It was his engine. Okay. And, you know, it was their, his first entry into the Restrictor Plate deal. But I'm sure he paracited some knowledge from Randy or got ideas on what's direction to go. But this is his own engine.

And, you know, Buddy put that together for us for Daytona. We went down there and we were fast. And the car was drove exceptionally well. The car's balance was relatively free all the time. But it was fast. And, you know, we knew we had a really quality car. And that really set the tone for going back to Daytona. And when we got back for Speedwigs, we were probably one of the faster cars in,

in practices, and we knew that we, if we could take care of this thing, you know, with my limited experience, that we had a shot. So do you remember much about the week? A lot, actually. Yeah, it was, I remember, you know, some of it's kind of vague, but, you know, I remember being in the practice sessions. I remember, you know, our conversations with Buddy, and Buddy, once Buddy saw how good we were in practice, I mean, we were probably only only in one cars that really could deal, other than Schrader. Schrader was, lights out, right? Yeah, he was so fast. But we were right there.

And, you know, at that time, when Buddy started, like, telling me, okay, look, here's the plan. You know, Daytona always has a late-raged caution. We are going to ride. We are going to survive. We are not going to tear this thing up. We are going to drive within ourselves. And stay on the lead lap, stay in a position to be, you know, to have a shot. And he said, here's what I want you to do.

Every practice session, when Dale goes out, you go out with Dale. I want him to see you all the time. Now, this is straight from Buddy. He said, if he goes in the bathroom, you know, I want you to follow him in the bathroom. He said, I want him to see you all the time. And that was just buddies, you know, whatever, his method, you know, or mythology of how to keep us in the focus of in somebody's mind.

Because his day was the guy you had to beat. And he was the most, you know, the guy that hadn't won it. And he is the guy that wants it the most worst. So you're going to have to beat him. Yeah. So that's what we did. And sure enough, that morning before the race, Dave Despain says, comes over and says, well, what do you think?

You know, and I said, I said, I feel like we have a car that can win. if I can keep it out of trouble. And certainly that's what the game plan was. So I remember it felt like you ran second to dad the entire race. Now it probably was not exactly like that, but that's my short memory of the race. So you did everything buddy asked you to do. As this race is going, playing out as you're getting,

as you're getting further and further into the distance of the race, I mean, this is still relatively short in your career, you know, and you've only been on the East Coast and Grand National for a couple of years. I wonder how you're, I wonder where you were mentally as you're approaching those final, you know,

50 laps. As you're starting to see, you know, your opportunity to have this really, incredible day, right? A lot of times drivers, I think when I started, you know, when I would get close to a really great run early in my career before I ever had success, you would oftentimes almost get nervous and maybe make mistakes or do something. But I'm wondering how you felt mentally in those final, you know, 100 miles. Well, I think as the race worked out, you know, we really

we were kind of running fifth a lot, but the car was extremely free. And if you really, you know, we're able to, like, dissect the race, we, Buddy was not going to put tires on. He was going to run, you know, there wasn't a great deal of cautions anyways, but Buddy was always wanting to stay on, on, stay out on tires, get track position. He was all about track position, stay up out of the mess, stay up top. So we would run fifth on used tires, maybe put two tires on when everybody else would put on four. So the car was always, you know, in the car, you know, in the car, you know, in the car, that position where I really had to be careful and I always ran kind of like like I was fast enough to be ahead of the guys that couldn't get to us and that I could stay with that group so I was kind of

like running fifth and then as a car we got you know further on the race I was able to kind of migrate to the front and be second and stay out of trouble again but I you know as you're getting closer to the end you know the intensity level starts getting higher and higher because you know we're right we are up front and we're staying there so you know this and you know And Buddy, I'm telling Buddy the whole time, is this thing is, you know, really free. That's why you always go to the high side because I have to give the car its head and I'm on used tires when they are at fresh tires. And so, you're just constantly battling trying not to hurt the car. And sure enough, you know, that last stop, you know, I come in.

I said, buddy, this thing's really loose. I said, you know, and so he beats the spoulder down. We're putting left sides on finally, putting on new tires somewhere, right? And so it puts left sides on. And I watch him. and he's beating the spoiler down. I'm thinking, this thing is so loose now. You know, he must, you know, I'm hoping the left size

I've got to tighten this thing up, you know. And but more speed comes. And now I've got a little bit of grip, and, you know, that was the last time we changed tires. And it was escalating. But, yeah, the anxiety, intensity was moving up. But I just, I knew that I knew I had to be calm, I had to be patient and have a shot.

So dad runs over a piece of a bellhouse and going down the back straightaway. A lot of times, me and you driving race cars, we can see a speck of dirt on, we can see a penny laying on the racetrack as we're approaching it. You're so in tune and your mind is so elitely trained to pick up these visuals. So in the video of the cars going down the back straightaway, you see this sort of thing coming flying out from a Honda's car, not sure exactly whether the tires tearing the crush panel out or what's happening there.

But what do you remember about going down that back straightaway? I don't know that, you know, I don't know that are you thinking about what type of run I can put together or how I might be able to put anything together on the three car? And then do you see visually what's happening to him? What's your thoughts there? You know, I had, the last few laps was really, you know, pretty much embedded in my mind because, I mean, And, you know, Elliott and Labani, they had tried to put a run on me, and they'd had nothing for me. So I knew that I really just had to use them to get to Dale.

And, you know, in the last lap, we're coming down there, and Labani was getting me loose, getting in. You know, I still only had, you know, old tires on, and I had to keep going to the high side. And I kept going the high side all the time, and all of a sudden, you know, and your dad, he keeps moving up the racetrack. You know, he knows that he needs to take, you know, the air away and he needs to get up in front of me because that's where I was getting a run to get back to him. And so he migrated up there, and then I lost ground that lap going into one. I'm on his bumper going into one. The bonding gets me to lose, and I just go to the top, and I lose, you know, three, four, three car lengths or so, right?

And down the back straightaway, I'm getting some momentum, though. The car's starting to get a surge, and, you know, so I knew that I would get back to his bumper if I went to the bottom, which I knew I had to get in there and preload the wheel. I had to get in there and go to the bottom no matter what. I had to just, you know, keep it on the bottom. So my whole intention was to drive. drive to the bottom and do not, I don't care what happens. And when I drove off in there, I started seeing, like you said, you saw some things come up and hit the car. And I don't know what they were,

but there was some debris and, you know, but your things are slowed down at that point, right? Because it always does, right? You're traveling that speed, but it's slow motion to me. And then all of a sudden, same kind of thing like you see in Days of Thunder, the car, his car starts to turn and it gets you out, you know, and I'm on the bottom. And all of a sudden, he's, backing up to me. So the closing rate's coming. So things are picking up. And by the time, I think we're just going to run in the back of each other, right? Because that's just, I'm gaining, like, you know, immensely. And all of a sudden, car just goes, whoop, and wiggles, and he drives to the right. And I drive by the bottom. And at that point, you know, you know,

what's happened. It's like, I know I have this thing. If, you know, the bonding, they have nothing for me. Do you have a moment? So the camera, you know, breaks away from you for a moment. I was wondering what you dealt with or what you thought as you come up off of four, right? Are you like looking in the mirror going, you know, do they have, are they putting anything together? What, what, because there's probably this process of, holy shit, I've just taken the lead of the Daytona 500 and the checkered flags right around the corner. But then immediately I think you would have a moment or a thought of what, what is happening

behind me. You know, did you? Did you have any concern, I guess? Oh, yeah. All day I'd kind of pedaled the car and had to really, you know, be careful on use tires. And, you know, from the time that last caution happened, I was wide open and never lifted. You know, I was like, you know, we were in the mix. And as I got by your dad, when I drove by there, I looked in the mirror and I saw the gap that I had on the bonnie.

And I just figured, you know, if I don't lift, if I don't have any kind of a moment here off the corner, they're going to have a difficulty getting him because I could see Elliot was farther back too. So they weren't tucked up. So I just said if you don't lift, we got this thing. You know, you just got to block them.

And, you know, when I come off a four and I got to the flat, you know, I was like just trying to just stay in front of them and move down and not take it. But yeah, at that point, you know, you kind of felt like that there was a chance

that you were just going to win this thing. And it was like total elation, you know, and the radio went crazy. Right. You know. When did you realize what you had done? When they come on the radio, I mean, it was, all I could hear was screaming. And, you know, I didn't really, you know, when you cross the start, finish line,

you're hearing all this screaming. You know you've won, but yet nothing really resonates with you at that point, right? You're just like, not exhausted, but you're just, wow, I can't even believe this, you know. And, you know, you put the window net down, you're riding around. And, you know, I'm thinking about my dad. I mean, my dad and I had structured this whole thing 10 years ago and, you know, to reach the, you know, the pinnacle to the biggest thing can ever happen to you, you know, I just had reflection on my father and what we had done. Do you remember what the first, when you come down pit road, what's the first thing you see? Well, the first thing really was, you know, buddy on, you know, there was a lot of screaming and stuff, right, but then buddy was on the deal.

And when I was coming down pit road, you know, obviously we're just trying to get ready to head to victory lane. Yeah. Do you know where to go? No. I said, I said, buddy, you know, he's, you know, I said, I don't know where Victory Lane's at. And he starts laughing, you know, and so he says, just keep coming down here. He says, we'll show you where it's at. And, you know, Jim Fox, Tini, he jumped on the decklet as, you know, I see me coming in.

Jim was the guy that was with Dave Fugent and I in the three-bedroom apartment above a garage in Hendersonville. And Jim was, you know, a personal dear friend. And he jumped on the decklet and we rode into Victory Lane together. and, you know, that's, that was it. When you saw Bob Wickham, what was that like? It was totally elation for him. You know, he's just hugging my neck and squeezing, and, you know, everybody was just, I think, really in disbelief, you know,

and excited. They're all young, you know, they're all in really the infancies of their careers. You know, a lot of them would go on to greatness and do other things, you know, and staying in the sport. But it was really a, you know, a moment in time that, you know, they'd been rewarded for, you know, believing in buddy and believing in me. And Bob to, I think, you know, to get to the highest point and all the money he had spent and nearly getting out of the sport, I think it was just a complete relief.

And, you know, and Greg and everybody, the same thing. They just were overwhelmed by emotion, I think. You would appear on David Letterman. You would go on to win another race at Dover that year. I was at that track, watched you. Not a fluke win by any means. Had a really good car and a great strategy and led tons of laps. Bob's team would eventually be overcome by the financial strain that it is, you know, that it is, you know, being in the Cup series.

But I want to ask you, I have this experience myself. there's a happiness and a sadness for me when I look back on those type of moments like you had with Daytona there's a there's a happiness and thankfulness that it happened but also a bit of a sadness that you didn't not that it only happened once but that it that you didn't know it was happening when it was happening does that make sense you know when you think back on that moment I think a lot of drivers probably do this and I like I said I myself sort of do this as well with some of the moments in my career is like you know when i i just you can't go back you can never go back and man would you do would you give anything to relive that because when it was

happening you really didn't realize what was happening and what you had done and uh so i wonder if you feel the same emotions i think when you think back on on winning that race and what what how incredible that was i think you know if you're a race car driver and you're in the moment at the time you're so driven about going on, and you think that it's going to continue to happen. And, you know, you don't really absorb everything that it presents to you at that point in time. And, you know, things happen so quick, especially in the form of NASCAR, you know, the next week comes relatively quickly. So you don't have a lot of time to really dwell and absorb it all, right? And for us, it was a little different because, you know, we were called a fluke.

And I think, you know, the whole thing of the way that we want it, you know, although we were in a position to win, and that's the way that racing goes. But, you know, your father hadn't won the race prior to that and had so many problems with it, right? Yeah. So we caught the brunt of all of the things that people would say, if you had social media today, it would have been like merciless. Right. But we didn't have cell phones back then. Okay. And we didn't have.

I didn't think about that. To deal with, right? So you only just had Speedway scene and then the ridicule from your peers. So all you're hearing is that the word fluke became attached to the win. Really? And I think all of us, you know, that worked there, including Buddy, you know, it was kind of hard to take, you know. And, you know, the biggest thing can happen to you and Bob and yet there's a, there's an asterisk, you know, by your name, right? So I think, you know, I enjoyed going to, you know, all the stuff up top, you know, and doing the toasting at the Unicow and all the things.

And you just, I mean, what a moment, right, in time, you know, and then you, you know, you have to come back and get on a phone and call purulator in Tulsa, you know. And so when you leave, though, and then you can keep having all this negativity, right, which social media does today in a lot of instances, right? our whole focus was on we have to win again. We can't be a one-hit wonder. We have to win again. But we need to do it in a fashion where there's no misgivings or things that would say that we're just, you know, we were given something, you know.

So that was the biggest thing that we took away from that. But yeah, I think with all of that or sort of, you know, in kind of surrounding that, you didn't get an opportunity really to enjoy it to the fullest degree of the word. And, you know, you had to be relegated. to going on quickly and, you know, dealing with all that. That's interesting.

I hadn't thought about that. I didn't even think to ask it because I, when I was with friends with Mike, I didn't view the race that way. I was wanting Mike's team to be successful because I enjoyed Mike's friendship and us hanging out at the track. And I think I even knew a little bit. then because Mike would tell me, Mike and his brother were close to Bob, and Bob was pretty transparent, I think, with his family about the business and the business model. And I think Mike

shared with me at times how treacherous it was, you know, how difficult it was for a team of y'all's caliber to compete. And so there was some genuine concern, you know, about where the team could go and how it could how it could continue. But I'd never thought about the emotional toll that the perception of that win might have had. What do you recall, I guess, of the dissolving of that team? And where would, where did, how did you go on to the next thing? And what do you recall, I guess, of Bob's operation? coming to an end. Well, I was pretty involved because I was the liaison with the sponsorship.

I had the sponsorship. I dealt with the sponsorship. And I'd gone through four presidents. There was a lot of changeover with Pure Lader. Yeah, because, you know, I started with Carol Warner. And, you know, obviously Carol and I spent a lot of time talking about what transpired and what happened and his departure and who came in after that. So I went through four presidents. So trying to, and it was bought by pens oil. So, I was dealing with a lot of CEOs and presidents and, you know, trying to keep this thing going, right, and proving my worth, right? And so I was, I knew everything was going on. And the, the demise really came, because, you know, Buddy, you know, Buddy left. Buddy leaves. And

why did Billy leave? I don't know. Just, I don't know. I think Buddy was one of those things were like, you know, he, a free spirit. He just wanted, he did what he came to do. And he left out on a high. and, you know, he probably, he did other things, I think, with Rusty maybe or something, but, you know, he just, I don't know, he just, he wanted away. Yeah. And Buddy was one of those things where we, then the next thing, but, you know, one thing about racing is it really is about the people, right? I think, you know, you don't do this alone. Nobody does. You don't, driver doesn't win alone.

He does, he does it with people. And when we lost Buddy, you know, there was an influx of another crew chief, you know, you know, obviously the new racing, but he, he does, he does it. was not the crew chief. He was more of a, you know, a team manager guy, you know. And so it really didn't go the way we thought it would go. And at the same time, I'm fighting a different fight with sponsorship, trying to keep the money coming in. And then when the things kind of get to the point where we're not running as well, we don't have the motor programs that we had before, whatever, you know, we're making different choices. Roman Baruda was the last president of Purulator. and they were getting ready to go public.

So they're trying to keep all the money in the bottom line. So I know that, you know, there's a lot going on that this thing's probably going to go away. And certainly what happens is Bob and, well, Roman Bruda approaches Bob. We went to Daytona to test and he had already been paid a million dollars on the program and all it. And Roman Brutta said, look, we're going public. We want to stop. We don't want to sponsor anymore. And you can keep the money that we gave you.

but, you know, we want to leave. Well, you let us, you know, out of the contract. So Bob, I guess, said yes. I think he didn't really want to put no more money in. He'd resigned himself that, you know, he'd accomplished what he accomplished, could go no further. And he made a very difficult decision for himself. And, you know, I'm making the most money I would make in the last year

because of my personal services contract, and yet everything goes by the wayside, and then you're left holding the bag and you have no ride at the beginning of the year after everybody, all the seats have been filled. and you're left with no sponsor and no driver and no pipeline for sponsors because you're not looking. And so you're kind of like, you know, without anything. Yeah. What did you do? I pretty much started trying to talk to who was out there and, you know, what deals were opportunities.

And then that's when the deal with Cail kind of came about. And no sponsor, you know, they put me in a car to go to Daytona and we ran really well. And then we were able to get bow jangles. And then that thing kind of progressed. That car was really fast. Yeah, it was. It had, you know, well, the two engine boaters were very, very talented people. Tony Santinacola and Bob Fisher.

You know, Bob Fisher now is running ECR, took over for Richie. And Tony's bill was with the Dodge deal with Errington. So talent stuff. They always had great restrictor plate motors. And that's where we thrived. We ran really well there and had a shot to win races at the restrict to play races. Yeah. So where do you go from Kale?

Actually, from there, I end up going to, I think, Bobby Allison. You know, and that was really probably the best race car that I probably drove and the best group of people that I feel like that I drove for. But we had a lot of problems financially. But Jimmy Finneck, Keith Almond, Mike Bacinger, you know, all the guys there. I mean, I was going there every day, and I was in a trade of building shock absorbers for Jimmy, and we built, and we had Steve Levin, you know, building cars, doing our own twist fixtures, the hanged bodies, doing paint bodies, we did everything. We were, we were really a good race team, and we had continuity. Just the financial end was struggling. And, but, you know, we sat on a lot of outside poles and, you know, a lot of good races. They almost won Phoenix, and, you know, and that was really the best. I felt throughout my career and then the worst decision on my part to leave was more financially based because I was struggling to get paid and, you know, I was paying for the guys to get paid and, you know, nobody really knew it. And we're just trying to hang on and, you know, tough decision.

But, you know, probably the worst decision that I probably ever made. You know, I just needed to keep trying to find more money and keep trying to stay there. You regret leaving? Yeah, I regret leaving. Yeah. Yeah, I think because I love the people. We were successful with limited money. Everybody was overachieving all of us.

Are you, you know, what's your personal life like at this point? Yeah, I have Renee, my first wife. So there's some pressure, you know, as a husband. Yeah, I mean, she's got horses, you know. We're in the horse thing and she's hunting and jumping and doing things. And so, you know, and I'm not getting paid. You know, we're struggling to continue to do things. And, yeah, so there's pressure.

This may be my favorite time of the NASCAR season. It's when the on-track drama starts to ramp up, and each driver fights harder and harder because each win might mean survival and a shot at the championship. And hard-fought battles on the track mean that this is also the time of the year when raced wind die casts from Lionel Racing really tell a story. These authentic replicas capture a particular more,

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And don't forget, you can find a wide selection of die cast at the Lionel stores in Concord Mills Mall near Charlotte Motor Speedway and Opry Mills Mall in Nashville. Hey everyone, it's Andrew Curland. If you are going to be at Daytona this weekend, listen up because I want you to hear this. This Friday and Saturday, Dirty Mo Media will be at the Hellman's Midwerellman's midway display in between the Exalted entry gate and the Toyota entry gate where we will have

entertainment prize giveaways and fan interviews. That's right. I will be out there from 4 to 6 p.m. on Friday and 230 to 4.30 on Saturday conducting interviews for our series Andrew Curlin went there. I'll be giving way a ton of prizes, hats, t-shirts, coosies, dikes, and even something so incredible. You have to come see me to find out. Also, Justin Allgaier, driver the number 7, Helman We'll be answering your questions on Friday from 145 to 215 to 215. On Saturday, you can come ask questions to the guys of door bumper clear. They've got a Q&A from 330 to 4. It's all happening at the Hellman's display.

Again, that's in between the Exalta entry gate and the Toyota entry gate right outside the Speedway. Just look for the racing simulator and listen for the DJ entertaining fans all weekend. And don't forget, if you are a Sam's Club member, race in to pick up your favorite Helmand's mayonnaise products. If you want to be extra fast, skip the checkout line by using the scan and go feature inside the Sam's Club app. Helmans, America's number one mayonnaise. You end up going over to Bahari Racing, which was a solid team in its own, in its heyday, I guess. This was kind of in the backside of that team's program, if I remember correctly. Yeah, it was, I kind of got to the deals either, you know, early or most of the time I got to them as they were starting to go

over the top and start to go down the other side. But yeah, I got there in 98 at a time when, you know, Michael had left and Johnny Vincent. You got hurt. Yeah. What was the injury? And when they repaved Atlanta. Oh, yeah. You blew right. I was running third. Yes. I was running third. I remember that. And we were hauling the mail and right rear, yeah, right rear gave up, blew up, blew off the thing going into one and backed it in the fence and then the thing slapped the side and I hit my head against the wall and knocked me out and I didn't wake up until I got in the hospital and you know rib injuries and shoulder injuries and stuff you know so that was my first big you know major impact right but I drove you know I drove pretty much all year you know with broken ribs you

Yeah, and struggle. I imagine the head injury, you know, made things a bit difficult for a while until that eventually clears up. I've talked to, you know, we know we, we, we're a little more transparent these days than we were back then about those injuries. You don't want anyone to think of you as damaged goods. You're scared to tell anyone that you, you might have that type of injury because people were so, you know, so unsure about it. and boy if you say you man i you know i got a concussion and then you go have a bunch of you know you go have a couple bad races people think that you're never going to you know return to your former self um was that part was that was that were you experiencing any of what i just described

during that period oh yeah absolutely i think that's that's that was that's the way i think you viewed it that's the way i viewed it yeah and i drove the whole year with broke ribs and then i broke them again in california i got an erect there with chad actually got put in the fence and won and I drove the whole year with broken ribs and it's funny because you know that year you know I your father actually had a full-time masseuse and they were wrapping me shaving me wrapping me and I was getting his masseuse to take care of me in the you know the bus you know and doing that all year long and then eventually I was lucky enough I went we ran good all year but you know it was tough in pain and I am getting the pole in Charlotte at the end of the year and you know kind of

revived, you know, the sense that I could still do it. Do it, do it, right? You know, so, but it was a long, tough year. You stayed with Bihari in 99, and eventually y'all would part ways. You ran for Eel River and Larry Hedrick and different other teams, started racing part-time. I want to get to where you ended up in the Xfinity car at Richmond. get to that accident. I think this was 2003.

Yes. I don't believe that I've ever seen a car hit the wall that hard, and I'm sure there's been some comparable accidents in our sports history. But what affected that accident have on you personally and physically? Well, I've had some major injuries before that, you know, when I first started. driving and then you know the deal at Atlanta right I had just put together the friendlies deal with my own cut team my cousin Ernie Krucheven and I was driving a bush deal and it was you know not a well-prepared situation and I had complained about

the throttle pedal not having a straw stop and you know it had one of the Hedgecock pedals that the bolt stuck too far out and it had a vinyl mat and in the race I it hooked the thread of the bolt in the mat and hung the throttle wide open, going off into one. And, you know, I was unfamiliar with the car, right? You know, and I went for the button, you know,

to push the kill switch, and it was the wrong place. And there's no time. You're trying to, you're trying, and it's slow, believe me, it felt slow. But I'm trying to find a way out of this, right? And I resigned myself to knowing that I'm going to have to just take the shot,

you know, and I leaned in the headrest and took it. And instantly broke me up. in pieces. Shattered my shoulder blade in 12 pieces and broke my leg below the knee, broke my sternum, broke my ribs. I had vision problems in my left eye. I didn't get my eyes closed in time. I was still trying to find a way out of it. And of course, I didn't, and this time it didn't knock me out. Yeah. As in, I was writhing in pain and knocked all the wind out of me and didn't stop. And the straddle was still hung and I didn't get stopped till turn two. And at that point, I was just trying to catch my breath.

Yeah. I watched that race a couple weeks ago just coincidentally. And I just, I don't know how you got out of there in as good a shape as you did. Yeah. And you talk about leaning into the headrests. Do you think that that might have played a role in a more positive outcome because I asked that question because when I was, was going through my own head injuries. I had a good amount of room around my head in the headrests,

particularly on the left side. I really just didn't, I felt like more often than not, I'm going to hit with the right front, and I just could do whatever I wanted with that gap there. And it could be able to, I was going to lean and do all the things that I wanted to turn in and look in and got with some NASCAR people and was talking to them about how to get safer. And what could I do? Is there anything I can do to make it where I can handle the these crashes better. And they talked about closing up that gap. And what they wanted to happen really was for my head to be against the headrest when

I hit the wall, not for me to sort of pull my head away from it as I'm getting ready to impact. So it would slap that headrest. And do you think that your intent, you know, intention to put your head against the headrest and absorb, you know, have that crash happen the way it did was a positive outcome? Do you think about that at all? Yeah, I've thought about it a lot.

I think that through the years, you know, I've done a couple of things that not a lot of people always did. And if anybody's ever worked with me, you know, when I tightened myself in a car, I really couldn't eat or drink a lot before the race because I tightened the lap belt so tight. You know, most people, these kids these days, nobody does that, you know, and I actually would put a screwdriver in the ratchet deal and have them pull on as hard as they could. I kept rationing itself, so it just kept squeezing me. And then, you know, I ran that sternum strap deal as well, you know, later on, right? Right. But I always held on the steering wheel. My dad said just hold on the steering wheel. And you said, you hang on to it like that's your lifeline. And so every time I've ever had crashes, I mean, I've always had a steering wheel that ended up like that. You know, I mean, pointing it right at me. I couldn't get out of the car or Dover and places like that. And I think when I went for that deal, I just, I'm short neck. So I guess that's probably helped too, right? You know, I'm stalky. I'm short-necked. But I tighten myself up like, you know, the point of being in misery and start the race. And I think that and then leaning into the headrest.

and just preparing for, you know, whatever was going to be thrown at me, right? And just, you know, fortunately enough, you know, I didn't hit anything. I didn't come out of the seat because I never hit anything. But just the impact of self of me, you know, going forward and then coming back and the deal shattered my shoulder blade in 12 pieces. I mean, so the impact was, you know, significant. It was massive. It was massive.

How do you, how long, I guess, before you were well enough to compete again? I went back to Atlanta, I think, in six or seven weeks. Yeah. I think it was six weeks. You know, I couldn't, I struggled. The biggest thing was to have to be able to turn this big wheel, like a boat wheel, right, to get my shoulder rocked up. You ran for a lot of different teams in different cars throughout the remainder of your driving career. A lot of guys will say, yeah, I'm not driving unless I can be in a win in a car.

You know, I don't want to drive. Why were you motivated to still show up? Knowing the car you were getting in wasn't going to be able to do what you wanted it to do that day. I think when I were kind of like fell out of favor, right? And that was right after the Bihari deal, right? And I kind of fell out of favor. And the year 2000, well, the year your father was killed, right, is my first TV gig for Fox Sportsnet. And I was doing the deal.

And I was doing those interviews, you know, with people before the races and then the post-race stuff. and I was talking to people doing what I wanted to do. And I didn't want to do TV. I still hadn't had enough. I still didn't feel like I felt like I had a lot left in me. I felt like I had a lot left to give, and I just needed somebody to believe in me. And the only way to do that was to do what my father always said,

don't get outworked, you know, stay relevant. And then, you know, out of sight, out of mind. And that's what Ray Everettam told me, you know. When he started the Dodge deal out of my two buildings, He's like, you know, just it's out of sight out of mind. If you're not there, people don't know you still want to do it. So I just loved to drive a race car, period. I don't care about anything else.

I just wanted to drive the car. And, you know, I did everything else that I had to do and I was good at it, but I had to do that just to be able to do it. And so I drove what I could drive. And, you know, you had to succumb to doing some start and parking and things like that when you didn't really want to. but I wanted to prove to people that I was a good qualifier. You know, I could manipulate a race car, not just drive it.

And so I was driving subpar stuff, and I was sending people home making races. And I wanted to show people that, hey, look, you guys have made a mistake. You should have invested in me. And that's really what I did. And then I just kept doing it because I loved it. And it's like, I'm not going to have nobody tell me I have to quit or, you know. I did it because I loved it. And I still love it.

And I miss it every day. I was going to ask you. So how do you come to the decision? How do you finally make that choice that you're not going to do it again? I am in the middle of going through that process, knowing that the day is going to be coming sooner rather than later, where I will realize that I'm not good enough anymore and that I physically or mentally don't have the sharpness and the ability to compete like I, want. And so how hard is that choice to finally say you're done, done, like not ever going to do this again? It's exceptionally difficult. It was for me anyways. And I think it's been easier for some

other guys, right? Yeah. But maybe they had more opportunities. They drew for higher echelon teams. They absorbed a lot in a short, in a period of time. And I just felt like, that my time was short and I didn't really get a chance to really be in a high etchalon ride and it had a chance to really showcase the potential I felt like I had long term with good teams and so I kept trying and then you know when I started the starcom deal it was an opportunity for me that they gave me Mike Matt Kohler and Bill Willem and gave me a chance to drive that car and when we got to it I just felt compelled that you know we didn't have the money and you know we bought a charter we started all this stuff all this money being

spent and then there was a kid you know Kyle Weatherman come we had Jeffrey in the car initially right and then we brought Kyle Weatherman and started helping us and working on us and I see how much they want it like I've always wanted it so I took myself out of the car and I gave opportunities to these kids and people to do things you know when I really wanted to be driving it and doing it but you know you finally get a gift the last deal that you know we go to Daytona and do that deal doesn't go well, but I'll blow a tire. But you realize that there, you know, you are in your late 50s, you know, and really, you know, I'm not going to have an opportunity to have anything good to drive, right?

And you just kind of come to resign yourself to the fact that it really is over. And, you know, I need to give opportunity or be involved in things and build what I've learned and, you know, what I've gained out of it, you know, try to give back in some way, shape, or form. And so that's why I've kind of tried to help, you know, who I could help and, you know, teach and instruct and try to get, I don't know, some sense of pleasure out of that when all I rarely ever derived was driving the car physically. Yes. That was the only thing I really loved. And that's all I've ever done. Yeah.

And if you think about it, you know, five decades in racing. And it's like it's the only thing I really truly had passion for or cared about. I mean, tired of playing golf. I'm tired of doing anything. else I just want to go to the racetrack. Yeah. Starcom. You bought a charter before people

thought charters were worth anything. You, and, you know, I want to understand what your involvement in the program was. What were you to Starcom? Well, it's funny because when I drove for Bobby Allison, Mike and Matt Kohler were kids.

And their uncle was, like, the president of Maine and Tail. straight-aero shampoo. And so they grew up kids around me. And when I was driving for Jay Robinson and paying to drive the car, you know, finding money just so I could drive, um, they sponsored me. They saw me on Facebook. They contacted, you know, our people and they wanted to help me. And so we did the deal and, you know, the thing didn't go well with Jay. I mean, we didn't get a lot out of what they did and, um, they were mistreated. And so they asked me if they, if we could do our own

deal. And I said, look, I said, it takes a lot of money. Uh, you know, we didn't. Uh, you. And, you know, you'll get emotionally invested. And I said, that's a struggle part of it is because it is a captivating and emotional deal. And I said, but, you know, I said, I will run all the numbers for you. I said, I'll show you all the things and you guys make the decision.

But, you know, and they did. They wanted to do it. So my wife and I Alicia started with not a bolt one and rented a little shop in Salisbury and started the cup deal. And we started that thing. And I think in about 90 days, we went to Kansas. And, you know, didn't really have,

didn't want to do it. I wanted to wait until the next year so I could build it right and start it right, but they wanted to go race. They got emotionally involved very quickly, which much to my dismay, and we bought a car from Darren Shaw and Beard, and, you know, went to Kansas, and, you know, I had Tony Furr and Mike Chance, and, you know, we had some suspension issues and things, but that's where we started. And then the next year, you know, everybody said, well, you'll never be able to find a charter. It'll never happen, you know. But I found, one. How? Well, I had put a relationship together with RCR. I went up there and met with, you know, all of them, you know, Mike Dillon, Tony, Goliath, and with Richard. And I wanted to buy cars. I wanted

to buy engines. And they wanted me to do an alliance and wanted me to do an engine program, you know, lease deal and stuff. I said, we don't have the money for that. And I said, we're buying everything fresh and new and we don't have the capabilities for that. I said, I want to buy engines, but I'll guarantee. to you that you rebuild them all. And I said, I need a charter. And I said, I need to lease a charter or buy a charter. We want to buy one. And I said, you have the minority charter there. And I said, you know, we'd like to be able to find a way to procure that. So it was a long, drawn-out process, you know, and they were trying to find money to start that third team and keep going, you know,

but the, you know, the board was there and behind that whole thing. And I think we knew somebody on the board and we were able to find a get in there and kind of get a relationship. And they leased that monarch charter to us. And that was really the, I think the thing that really put us in a position to, you know, become a stable fixture because we were able to have guaranteed revenue. We were in every race and we were starting from scratch. So we had a long road to hoe and worked hard to try to pressure the situation to purchase that charter. And, you know, the guys from Starcom and all of us wanted it badly.

And it was 11th hour the following year when they decided to sell it to us. And we bought it. And, you know, that was really what really kind of kept this thing going and really kind of got us to the point later on when we had to sell it. Yeah. So did you do well when you sold the charter personally? Yes. Yeah, so that was a very nice, you know, smart financial move. Do you think that the, do you believe in the charter system?

I think there are, yes, I believe in the charter system. I think the way that it's structured and the way it was initially done was poor. It really never gave the owners what they were seeking. There was always caveats. and, you know, I've been in all the meetings, all the owner's meetings and all the different things, you know, they've got for the drivers and the owners and things. And, you know, I, in my opinion, you know, it has not been a true, you know, franchising affair. Right. Right.

And it's left everybody in a quandary on how to move forward, right? Right. And even more so to this degree now. So I liked it because, you know, yeah, I mean, if you put your effort forth, you had a guaranteed opportunity and the value, you know, knowing business as I do, I knew that there was value long term in this. The biggest detriment and I knew it going in and I didn't like it and I had to work hard to keep it in the, you know, forethought of my mind was the fact that the bottom three. and I felt like the bottom three scenario would be the biggest detriment to owning the charter for a team like ours. Yeah. And it ultimately was our demise.

What do you mean? Well, we were forced financially at the time, you know, to, you know, we were running it out, you know, on the charter money. Yep. And what money that we had from Starcom. But then what happens is that you, you know, you start not finishing race. is where you need to. Well, of course, the money dwindles because of your non-finishes where you finish in points. So, you know, the money that you were making initially is not the money you're making per race towards the end because of your finishes. So we were forced to look outside for drivers

that have money that could fund the racing, which in this day and age is how the sports, all the sports really are, right? You're actually, unless you can procure or keep long-term relationships with entities, but it still comes down to the young guys coming in bringing money. So we had to look outside and go for drivers that could bring funding, right? And that undermined our capabilities to have the higher talented drivers keep us in a position to escalate the earnings and to showcase the potential for sponsorship. So, but it also put us in a position to be in the bottom three to lose the charter. And, you know, there was other teams that did that first. And, you know, there was other teams that did that first,

but they never elected to, you know, to enforce it. Were they going to enforce it? They were going to. With you? Yes. And so you were like, hey, I'm a lose this charter, so I have to sell it. Does that affect your ability to sell it for what you believe it to be worth? Because it's kind of like an NFL team that wants to trade a player and get a little value,

but the rest of the NFL will just wait for them to cut the player to be able to get the player off of waivers without having to make the trade. So if other teams know that you might lose this or could lose this, I guess you might be trying to keep that information in private so that other teams wouldn't drop the bid or the purchase price of the charter. Was that challenge ever in play? Well, it was a little different for us simply because nobody, you know, the other people before us that had already, you know, been in that position and nothing had

transpired. So I think the temperament and the belief was that they weren't going to do that. Yeah. And I think that's what they tried to put out there. But they were, I think that, you know, so we were being inundated with people wanting to buy our charter. Oh. And the numbers kept escalating. Yeah. And to levels of that, you know, they knew we were not as proficient. We had drivers in there. we really couldn't, you know, run up front with, right? So everybody was, you know, it's like blood in the water. Somebody wants to do something. But Nail's car, I think, was at a time where there was such an influx of, you know,

guys like Michael Jordan and people yourself or whatever that really were looking to take their high-level Xfinity teams or whatever and go to the next level and have the cup program. So I think there was pressure internally to have the best possible core of teams. It's like you want the best group of football teams. Sure. So I think there was that sense or feel that that's what, you know, NASCAR wanted. And so I think they kind of started to get to a point where, you know,

there was so much pressure of people wanted to come in and be there. And they wanted those people in that they were going to be pressured, I think, at some point to make a decision. And like they always do, there's always a scapegoat in anything. A crew chief, a driver, sponsors. There's always a scapegoat or the first guy that takes the brunt. Kind of like Austin Dillon's situation here. There's a guy that is the first guy that, you know, initiates the difference.

Yeah. And so that happened to us. I mean, we had conversations, and pretty much it was pretty evident that if we did, you know, we had another year to go. You know, we still, this is early enough, we had another year to go, but pretty much was the fact that we, if we couldn't make it happen the next year, we were not going to retain this and we would lose everything. Yeah. So at that point, we had to look for what our options were. Could we find an alliance?

Could we find a way that we could, you know, get the team better in a short period of time? And this was, you know, this was late. And the guys, I think were just, they think they were so disappointed and so disillusioned that they had stepped up and, you know, put a new team to the deal, young. I mean, aesthetically, when you looked at us, we looked like as good as anybody out there. We had the look, everybody, the cars were nice. I mean, we performed on every level except we just didn't have the talent or the funding to keep the car up there. Our business model was one of making money more so than it was, you know, being as successful, right? So, you know, it was just a choice that I think the boys had kind of come to that.

And they asked me, you know, what do we do? You know, and I, you know, the offers were out there that were significant, you know. And I said, you guys are all young. You guys have families, young children. And I said, you have a business. But, you know, this is a life-changing moment, you know. And, you know, they weren't racers. They didn't come up like I have or whatever like you have, right?

And they're business people. And they dealt with it as a business. I ran it within its means. And I did what I was asked. And I just said, look, if you're the standards, you lose it. that if we don't put more money in it and we don't put the effort forth and get an alliance and do everything to the fullest degree and buy a driver it won't happen yeah i said the choice is yours yeah and uh and they made it do you miss uh so that was effectively the end of your

nascar career uh to date i mean you're always more opportunities out there something that may draw you back um how have you how have you managed having this sort of break or separation from the stock car world. I know that you're involved in Trans Am and all these other things, and so you're definitely keeping the competitive mind going, and that's probably doing a lot of great things for you. But does it matter what kind of car it is or where the race track is at or what kind of racetrack it is as long as it's motorsports?

To some degree it is. I think, you know, you still love, I just love being it. the racetrack. I mean, that's where I've spent the majority of my life day in and day out, you know, and you know the cup schedule. I mean, it's a week in and week out. And so I missed that. I missed the people. I missed the camaraderie. And I missed the starcom guys because we were more, more family than anything, right? And so we'd always go to dinners and, you know, I didn't really drink at all before these guys much, you know, so now they're into wine. And so we're drinking, you know, Camas and, you know, Opus One and drinking, having tomahawks. And

So we're having fun, going out dancing, you know, with the girls and the wives and stuff. So my wife and I and them, we just enjoyed each other to a greatest degree of the word. So missing that and then you, we talked about earlier about not really absorbing or really knowing how great it was when you had it. You realize that when it's not there. So, you know, my boys, all the Starcom guys, we talk about it all the time because we always go up there and see them and, you know, we're doing this little TCR, MSA car, the Mission Pilot Challenge series. So we talk all the time.

We all miss it. We all miss going to the racetrack. We all miss being together. And that's, yeah, that is hard. It really is difficult to put it down, especially for my wife and I, because, you know, I personally have done it for a long time. Yeah.

And she got enthralled in it, and she's a major, you know, force behind what I've done and very supportive. And so, yeah, it's hard. it's not the same. You know, there's NASCAR and everything, other types of forms of racing, don't do it the same way and the atmosphere

and the people. Sure. It's not the same to me. I'm curious, I'll get heckled a little bit for asking this question, but I'm curious if you'd ever considered, so, I mean, you came up through the short track ranks. Had it ever occurred to you at, you know,

at 60 years old or at 65 years old? I mean, you know enough to be able to put together a reasonably enjoyable program at the short track level, at the grassroots level, to still compete even if you wanted to drive. In a late model stock or something of that nature, weekly racing, had it ever crossed your mind? Because like I, and I asked that question because I went back to late model stocks

where I began racing in the early 90s because I remember that time as being the most fun. Now, I wanted to get to cup and I loved every minute of being a cup, but it was hard and pressure and cutthroat. And then I got there and I was like, I didn't enjoy that little stuff. I did as much as I should have. I was too worried and too naive and too stupid. And I want to go back one day because I need to enjoy that. I miss that.

And the people that are there at those races are doing it simply for the love of it. There are no other reason for them to be there. And I've enjoyed that. It's been what I thought it would be. And a lot of times, you know, when you try to go back and recreate things, it's never as good as it was. Right. But this has been. had you ever considered, you know, maybe you don't need to be on that main stage.

Maybe you can get what you're looking for somewhere else. And I mean, I know you are with the Emson and so forth. I'm not wanting to say you're not, I don't want you to have to defend that. But had you ever considered, I guess, short track racing. Well, I certainly, you know, had to do a lot of soul searching, you know, and the discussions, you know, Alicia and I talked a lot about it every, I mean, pretty much every day and every night, you know. And we snuggle on the couch, and next thing you know,

we're talking about, what are we going to do? What do we want to do? And I think when I was growing up and starting to try to make my way, I drove basically a cup car my whole career because the cup cars in Winston West, the late models were,

they were all that style of car. The heavy, you know, I never really wanted to drive Xfinity or Bush Grand National. I mean, I didn't drive my first Xfinity race until Davy was killed and Red Farmer and Bobby. asked me to drive that car and we go to win the third race.

I go to Aloud and we win. And so I'd never really had a desire. I didn't want to drive cup cars, Xfinity cars, trucks. I wanted to drive cup cars. I wanted to go fast. I loved Restrictor plate racing. I loved Daytona Talladega.

I loved the thrill, the sensation, the emotion that it did. And Michigan and, you know, poking. I loved, you know, driving those fast races. That's what I loved. I didn't want to go slow. I didn't want to do the other things.

Really, it didn't interest me. So to answer the question, it's really about what I got out of driving the cup car. When I drove, you know, the GTP car and the 24 hours of Daytona, I loved it because you had to drive the harder you drove it, the more it pressed you and the more it demanded of you. So I like things that demanded your expertise and your total focus and it thrilled you. Yeah. And I just don't think the other cars, when I've driven them and done them, I mean, I did that as a means to get to this point. So, you know, yeah, I mean, if I could buy a car and I could do something, you know, if I ever came back or if we came back collectively, it would probably be Xfinity. It's just simply because you get to go to the places that, you know, I wouldn't probably drive, but I would want to be a part of an entity that would come back and run, you know, a limited Xfinity deal or something like that, simply because you get to go to the places that, you know, you know, I wouldn't probably drive, but I would want to be a part of an entity that, you know, simply because.

simply because now after doing the other things that I tried to fill the void with, I don't fill the void with it. It doesn't, you know, doing to road races and doing all stuff there. I love helping kids and doing it, but it doesn't fill the void. Xfinity racing, I've done it, I've drove in it, I know how difficult it is, I know what it takes and it has escalated. So if I was going to come back, Cup is out of the realm. Yes.

But Xfinity would be the next and only place that I probably would look at doing anything further. Gotcha. Well, man, I've really enjoyed this conversation, Derek. Me too. I've always appreciated you and your impact and the mark you left on our sport.

Everybody has a different impression that they leave and you've affected people's lives that you've worked with and done a lot of good over the course of your career in the driver's seat and as an owner.

in this sport as well. And you continue, like you say, you continue to shape some of the younger drivers that are trying to come up into the ranks. I know you've worked with Conner Zilich and a couple of the people. Connor, one of the drivers that will race for us next year in the Xfinity Series. We're very excited. But I was excited and looking forward to talking to you today. I'm thankful that you come here and gave us some time.

And I appreciate you, buddy. Well, I appreciate the opportunity to come. You've got a wonderful platform here. and you do a lot of great things. You shed a lot of light on everybody. Everybody has a story, and you've been able to shed light on that and let them get their perspective on things.

So it's well done. I'm proud of what you've done. Thank you very much. Derek Cope on the Dill Jr. Download. So that was a great conversation with Derek Cope and had been wanting to talk to him and get him in here because of his unique perspective as a Daytona 500 champion and one of a driver that only won two races in his career,

one of them being the biggest race of the year. And then again, his involvement in Starcom and how all of that went down and whether he felt like at the end when they did sell, whether he profited from that, right? So it was a good conversation. enjoyed it. And I wonder, I wanted to ask him this. So I, we know, we talked about his Daytona 500 win, and then, which is great, a great conversation. And then I wanted to credit him and say, you know, you did go to Dover and win again to prove, you know, and not in a fluky way. Like you won, you know, you let a lot of laps and had a really great strategy in a fast car. I remember I was there.

I was looking at the scoreboard. I'm like, holy shit. Bob, Mike Wickham, my buddy, his car is going to win this race. And I watched, I remember being down in the garage. I feel like Dad might have had some kind of an engine issue or something. We were way out of the race. And I was in the garage. I was in my Goodrich uniform doing something.

And I remember watching, looking at the scoreboard, and I don't know who was second, but it was somebody in second, right? and I could see the cars go by and a little window between the haulers or between something obstructing my view in the garage and I see there goes Derek Cope and then a bunch of other cars and there are a bunch of other cars and a bunch of other cars

and then finally here comes second place I was like he's way out in front damn he's going to win but anyhow I was like you know you won that race not in a fluky way and then he said moments later he brings up how tough

the response was to his Daytona win and how people thought it was a fluke and I hope that he didn't think that I thought it was a fluke because I said I mean I remember him like he ran second all day long he corrected me and he was like

you know he was kind of like fifth or sixth all day but we got the second late in the race and we're there for when dad had problems he was able to capitalize but I wouldn't call it a fluke I would say it's more Cinderella-esque, and maybe that's comfortable because of the car being pink. But it is a bit of a Cinderella win,

like a Sweet 16, you know, a deep run college team and March Madness upsetting the Giants. I mean, that's what happened. That's what it was. Fluke, no, because the car was fast, and they did a great job. job all day. You know, a fluke is, you know, the whole field pitting and you staying out and rain coming and

you win the race, which several drivers have won races that way. But this was, they performed all day. And man, I didn't know that they had such pushback. Even though, you know, to his point, it wasn't in this new age of social media, which would have been relentless. Even back then, and just like the news articles and published articles and papers and the Winston Cup scene, there was a bunch of pushback that really left them a bit bewildered and disappointed, frankly. And I'm sure a lot of that was coming from the disappointment of Earnhardt fans and the industry as a whole that Dad had the flat tire, right?

Everybody wanted Dad to win the Daytona 500. He was Dale Earnhardt and larger than life. And there was one thing that one of the greats hadn't done. And it was win that race. And so everybody wanted him, I think, maybe I was biased. I thought everybody wanted him to win it at some point, which you would. But, man, that 1990 Daytona 500 was devastating. Devastating.

And I wanted to ask Derek, his real, time experience. Like as he's driving out of the back straightaway and whatever flies out from under that car, what he thought, what he saw, what went through his mind when that was happening. So it's awesome that he remembers it. I love that he, I love it for him, that he still has that clear memory of every sort of moment as he's driving that car down into turn three. And I know as, you know, a guy has hit a few walls and had some head injuries and, and Derek's had some himself, and a lot of drivers, majority of race car drivers are going to experience that at some point. In old age, plays a big role as well. You know, you forget some of the real details of those

moments, 20, 25, 30 years, 40 years away. You don't, you don't retain some of the real details. Some of the true, real gritty details of those final couple of laps in a very important day of your life. But I'm glad he does. It's good for him. It's fun to talk to him about retirement. I know that I talk to a lot of people about that on here. And I'm trying to figure out a way that those conversations might help me in the coming years is I eventually have to make a decision that I won't race anymore and I'll have to put that

way down the list of priorities. Yeah, so I enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun, and I want to make sure that we thank Ally for the opportunity to talk to Derek today. Ally brings us the guest segment every single week, and we appreciate everything they do for us here at Dirtymo Media and the Dale Junior download, and also everything that Ally does in the sport of NASCAR. They're a sponsor that makes a lot of waves and does a lot of great things that keep this big machine moving down the road. and fans and myself, we should definitely be thankful and supported of them because of that. Their involvement in the sport, they make the sport better.

No matter what you're saving for, whether it's tickets to the next race, a new car, a new home, we're all better off with an ally. Let's get to the white flag. All right, so as we mentioned yesterday in the Tuesday dirty air segment, you know, all of our shows are dropping this week as they traditionally do. tear down on Monday with Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi. Those two go add it around start times and all kinds of great debates. And I love the sort of way they challenge each other.

And they truly bring up some great points on both sides of each argument. Action is detrimental in Denny Hamlin and Doorbubber Clear. All of that came out earlier this week. Make sure to tune in. Check out those shows if you haven't listened to them already. Dirty Air, our show yesterday. And then Speed Street with Connor Daily and Chase. Holden, that drops today, along with this episode.

Tomorrow, DJD Relo reloaded and Dirty Mo Doe. Dirty Mo Doe will be prepping all of us for the upcoming race at Daytona and some of the best bets to make in a very tricky moment of the season, a very difficult race to make a clear, concise, confident bets. I would definitely be listening to Dirty Mo Doe in times like this. The Dirty Mo Summer Games are all available, all late episodes, on the next level with Andrew Curlin YouTube page. So go there, check that out. The bus race dropped over the weekend. Andrew

takes the big win home. I don't know. Am I spoiling this? Yes, I think so. But it's in the copy, so I'm reading it. Andrew will also be at Daytona with our friends at Helmonds in the fans on interviewing you the fans. You're going to see Andrew if you go to the Daytona race and get the fans on. Big prizes and giveaways coming with that as well. Andrew, you want to give us a specific time on where fans can find you in the fans on? Yeah, you can go to the fan zone, the Helmans display, which is in between the Toyota and Exalted Gates. And I'll be there from 4 to 6 p.m. on Friday, 2.30 to 4.30 on Saturday.

Interviewing the fans, DBC's doing a Q&A on Saturday. Justin Algeyer's doing a Q&A on Friday. And like I said, we've got some pretty sweet prizes. We have a five-star Apple review coming up here from 2TW. They say, My Weeks are made by listening to Dale and his guest discuss the history of the sport I love. from guest hosts like Amy and Kelly. This podcast is inviting to everyone because of all of the perspectives in the studio. We appreciate that and we're glad you're having fun.

We're having fun and we're going to keep on having fun. But that's it for me. Make sure you tune in tomorrow for DJD Reloaded and everything else we've got going on this week. But I'm out of here. We'll see you next week. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram.